| WELCOME to the anvilfire Guru's Den - V. 3.0 |
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THIS is a forum for questions and answers about blacksmithing and general metalworking. Ask the Guru any reasonable question and he or one of his helpers will answer your question, find someone that can, OR research the question for you. This is an archive of posts from January 1 - 7, 2005 on the Guru's Den |
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Angle Grinders: I've killed 2 cheap 'no name' angle grinders this week. I'm thinking of investing in some big name (Makita, Hitachi, Bosch, Metabo etc) 4.5" grinders but I'm wondering are they really worth 6 times the price of the cheap grinders? |
| Bob G - Sunday, 01/01/06 09:44:53 EST |
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Bob G-- Handled with delicate care, the Makita 4-inch grinder will last seemingly forever. But snag the cord and pull it off the bench and the motor tears its fragile plastic mounting web membrane. Fixing is impossible, having Makita fix it costs more than a new one. I wore out one after 10 years, busted its replacement and bought a Milwaukee. (That's not the town in Wisconsin but one somewhere in Taiwan these days.) |
| Miles Undercut - Sunday, 01/01/06 10:39:06 EST |
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Bob I bought a 4" Makita and a 4 1/2" deWalt reconditioned from toolking.com for a total of $100 approx. They are both great tools. I can really lean on the 4" w/o overloading it. I have had good luck with Makita & DeWalt |
| adam - Sunday, 01/01/06 11:04:01 EST |
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PS Makita makes a cheapy 4" that "aint worth totin' home" Bill Epps :) |
| adam - Sunday, 01/01/06 11:05:23 EST |
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Miles; You are obviously referring to the famous Mirwaki. |
| 3dogs - Sunday, 01/01/06 12:07:22 EST |
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Mirwaki? Not the celebrated Harry Mirwaki of Ebay fame? |
| adam - Sunday, 01/01/06 12:34:14 EST |
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Bob, i have a metabo and makita both have hit the floor more time's than i care to think about. But they still work great. |
| otis the dog - Sunday, 01/01/06 13:20:51 EST |
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Bob G, Save your money if you're thinking of Porter Cable. I bought one of their 4-1/2" angle grinders and within a couple of months it threw a couple of commutator bars. I use the better Harbor Freight ones (orange case), and they last fine because I never overheat them. When one starts to warm up, I set it aside and use another. Doing this, I get years out them. The enemy of those things is heat. Inside, the HF grinders aren't any worse construction than the brand name ones, in most respects. The Porter Cable had design flaws evident inside that surprised me. My old Makitas were well well made, and old Milwaukees are good, too. Most folks I know that insist on buying expensive ones seem to think that Metabo is the best. YMMV |
| vicopper - Sunday, 01/01/06 13:32:47 EST |
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Cheap 4" Grinders,,, I have several from H-F. get the orange plastic housing model, (The blue housing model is extreme crap and can self destruct within miniutes)I always buy them couple at a time about 15 dollars each, and keep on hand extras new in the box, (Think of it like keeping spare lightbulbs on hand)Compared to a professional tool, one can sure feel a difference, But they are remarkably tough for the price. I dont TRY to beat them up, But DONT baby them either. Excellent for intermittent duty, time saved picking up a different grinder rather than changing wheels for each operation is well worth it. But if one has a continious duty job, Go for a 'pro model, The cheapo while I can make them last a couple years or so, Running it constant can kill it quickly. Anyway, Bottom line, I like them alot as a price-value disposable convienience. But I also have a couple pro grinders too. |
| - Mike - Sunday, 01/01/06 14:13:48 EST |
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Angle Grinders: Bob G, I have milwaukee's and metabo's. The milwaukees are fine but will warm up when used hard. The metabo's just work and work and work... They're spendy but I do believe you get what you pay for.. The welding lab at the local Comm. Coll. has an assortment of both 4.5 & 9" ers. There are two of each size metabo's and they've been there longer than any of the tool guys can remember. The rest of them (brands vary but I've seen Makita, DeWalt, Milwaukee, HF etc.)need to be replaced about every 6 months because nobody can abuse a tool like a pin-headed stoodunt.. YMMV |
| Bert - Sunday, 01/01/06 14:28:29 EST |
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Yesss! Solly. |
| Miles Undercut - Sunday, 01/01/06 17:19:06 EST |
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i never bust a makita yet,the 4"get to hot to hold but are great for wire cup brushes etc. not up to the job for grinders, my7" (grinder) is 26+ yr old, the 9" are a better tool but my favorite is 5", works like 7 and is a light as a 4". but totally agree cheap are to expensive to afford |
| geoff - Sunday, 01/01/06 18:38:52 EST |
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I bought a yellow Chicago Electric 4 inch from Harbor freight about 20 years ago that is still going strong - used it today. Of course it was 49.95 at the time when Makita and others were more than twice that amount. I have worn out a bunch of the blue case anemic models in the same time period. |
| Bernard - Sunday, 01/01/06 19:28:13 EST |
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Centaur has a lot of different fluxes by Anti-borax. What is the difference in them. Would any of them be better than plain borax for pattern welding? |
| JLW - Sunday, 01/01/06 19:47:23 EST |
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I just burned out a 4.5" Dewalt making cuts in 1/4" plate. It had a long, hard life... I used mostly 1/8" cutting discs in it. I ran it too hot one time and it started smoking. It still runs, but the bearings and gears are shot. I bought a Bosch 4.5" single speed as a replacement. It is a far better tool. I have cut four or more feet in quarter inch plate and had it was just warming up. It dissapates heat better than any other 4.5"er I have used. It is also quieter and the bearings/gears feel and sound much smoother. I highly recommend it at around $90. Oh, and the vibration absorbing handle is real nice, too. Cassidy |
| - Cassidy Clawson - Sunday, 01/01/06 19:49:38 EST |
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What is the feeling about electric die grinders? I see the pneumatic grinders for sale in the import places for next to nothing, but I do not see them as electric grinders for 1/4 inch shank burrs. Are they made and will they hold up? I have a Dremel tool, but I am talking about heavier than that. Is the high speeds used too much for an electic tool under load? |
| - J.Myers - Sunday, 01/01/06 20:50:52 EST |
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I am trying to find a blacksmith equipment shop in my area. I live in oceanside california. Any suggestions would be most helpful, Thank you. |
| Robert - Sunday, 01/01/06 22:20:20 EST |
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J Myers: They are available, You get what You pay for. There are OK Makita tools and excelent ones by Metabo, Bosh, Milwalkee,Black& Decker and knock offs of the Makita made in China that don't turn smoothly by hand. The Makita is about 100$. Sears sells one that looks OK but a little bulkey for about 90$.The better ones are a lot more. These are all much larger than an air tool.A cheaper alternative is a "Cutout Tool" such as a Roto-Zip, most of which come setup for 1/8" & 1/4" shanks. RPM range for the die grinders is about 18000 to 25000 RPM depending on model, some are two handed tools. |
| - Dave Boyer - Sunday, 01/01/06 22:24:06 EST |
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J Myers: They are available, You get what You pay for. There are OK Makita tools and excelent ones by Metabo, Bosh, Milwalkee,Black& Decker and knock offs of the Makita made in China that don't turn smoothly by hand. The Makita is about 100$. Sears sells one that looks OK but a little bulkey for about 90$.The better ones are a lot more. These are all much larger than an air tool.A cheaper alternative is a "Cutout Tool" such as a Roto-Zip, most of which come setup for 1/8" & 1/4" shanks. RPM range for the die grinders is about 18000 to 25000 RPM depending on model, some are two handed tools. |
| - Dave Boyer - Sunday, 01/01/06 22:31:48 EST |
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I've been using a Makita die grinder for the past five years or so, and so far overall it's been excellent. I am being extremely careful about not jarring it because of my bad experience with the fragility of the Makita 4 1/2-inch angle grinder. It does seem to me to be extremely bulky for one-handed use and the switch is in an awkward location. |
| Miles Undercut - Sunday, 01/01/06 22:39:05 EST |
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Angle grinders: I think Metabo is hands down the best, but others offer value allso. I have a 12 amp variable speed Milwakee 4 1/2 - 5" that is really powerful, but a lot to hold in one hand. The black&Decker/Dewalt with the paddle switch is an easy 1 handed tool, but the older ones without the safety toggle are easy to turn on accidentally. Some of the ones I have were picked up used at pawn shops for about the price of a Chinese tool new, were used hard before I got them and have done a lot of work since. Re-greasing and blowing out the dust is worthwile maintanance on any one that lasts a few years. True Value and Sears sold a 6 amp version of the Black&Decker with a trigger switch that works well, They used to cost 60$ on sale at Sears. |
| - Dave Boyer - Sunday, 01/01/06 22:48:58 EST |
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Grinders, I agree Metabo are about the best in durability, their slip clutch safety has saved me a couple times. The 'no wrench' disk release is very handy too. My next favourite is Hilti, I own their 4.5, I think they only have 2 models, 4.5 & 7" and lack the slip clutch and no-wrench |
| - Mike - Sunday, 01/01/06 22:59:55 EST |
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I recently purchased a pair of Kukri knives with wooden hilts riveted to a full tang. (They looked similar, but not identical, to this knife http://i2.ebayimg.com/03/i/04/31/2d/16_1_sbol.JPG ). Unfortunately, the upper (closer to the blade) rivet on each kukri was loose, and rather than curse and demand my money back, I decided to try my hand at fixing the problem. I've decided to fix them with a functional brass wire wrap, recessed slightly into the wood, and covered with an aesthetic leather (I plan on using chamois) wrap. Although I have a fair idea on how to proceed, I don't seem to be able to find any how-to guides focused on hilt wrapping, and was wondering if you had any advice. |
| - Gregory Powell - Monday, 01/02/06 00:28:31 EST |
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Hello again and Happy New Year! First off I want to thank Dave B, Frank, and Thomas for providing answers for my questions. I will try forge welding some leaf spring tomorrow when i get the forge fired up, and start on the air planishing hammer sometime soon (though i can't say when because i go back to school on tuesday). Now on to another subject... today i was making some small chisels and butchers for doing repousse( yet another hobby of mine) from 3/8" diameter O1 drill rod. i had forged the entire bar square with my treadle hammer, just heating up short sections at a time to a good yellow heat, forged it square, and then let the rod air cool as i moved on down the rod. After working the 3' long rod, i went to cut the bar into the 4" lengths i wanted for my chisels on my bandsaw. However when i tried to cut the rod, the blade did not cut the steel at all, even on the lowest speed. I ran a new file over the steel, which i keep back for testing hardness, and found that the file did't bite at all, it just skated over it as though it was hardened. It was also fairly brittle, which surprised me. I tried heating a section up and letting it air cool, but it still was hard. i ended up cutting the rod with a hotcut, heat treated it , giving it a straw temper, shaped it into a butcher, and put it to the test on some 16 gauge steel scrap i had around. It held up quite well, and shows no signs of losing its edge. So my question is this: is it noraml for O1 to air harden? If so, then iguess its my fault for not completely reading up on it. Also, how would i go about annealing it so it could be cut with a bandsaw? I would really appreciate any help you can offer. i was really surprised by this incident and i am not really sure what to do. Thanks, Ian Wille |
| Ian "Blueboy" Wille - Monday, 01/02/06 00:36:58 EST |
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Blueboy, Oil-hardening steel will, in thin sections, harden in air. O-1 is designed for oil hardening, a relatively "gentle" quench, compared to water or brine. Air is gentler yet but in thin sections such as your 3/8" rod, (actually about 1/4" when forged to square), O-1 will air harden. The anvil and hammer abstract heat from it pretty quickly, too. To normalize O-1, heaet it to non-magnetic or a hair above and let it cool in still air, not in a draft. That small section will still be pretty hard, though. To anneal small-section O-1, you'll need to heat it to non-magnetic and allow it to cool slooooowly. You can heat up a heavier piece of steel along with it, then place both of them together in a bucket of ashes to cool. If you are using a gas forge, just leave them in the forge when you shut it down and let them cool down with the forge. |
| vicopper - Monday, 01/02/06 00:59:16 EST |
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Robert: If you go to the Bandy Blacksmith Shop (now a blacksmithing school) at Grape Day Park in Escondido on Saturdays, there's a gentleman named Phil who can direct you to a place or two. Heck, you just might want to sign up for classes and make your own tools. Here's the website for the shop: http://www.escondidohistoricalsociety.com/content/heritage-walk-museum/b-blacksmith-shop.htm Good luck! |
| Koomori - Monday, 01/02/06 03:20:08 EST |
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Tool Steels, Forging and Air Hardening: Blueboy, When you heat tool steel to a forging heat and use a slow hammer like a treadle the steel is not just air cooled it is cooled by the mass of the hammer and anvil. This is particularly true in small sections like you are forging and is much faster than an air quench and often as fast as an oil quench. The price of most tool steels includes an expensive annealing so that they can be sawed and machined. After any heating operation, even with a shop anneal in ash or vermiculite the steel will be too hard for most chip cutting operations (sawing, drilling, turning, milling OR filing). Normally in tool steel when you start with new stock you want the size and shape nearest the finished product. Square stock is more expensive than round because it must be surface ground rather than centerless ground (a faster cheaper operation). But the price difference is mch less than converting round to square and losing the OEM heat treat. |
| - guru - Monday, 01/02/06 10:48:33 EST |
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Loose Rivet: Gregory, Why not return the knives to the seller if they are defective? A great many importers of cheap merchandise that sell it on ebay count on the fact that almost nobody will return defective merchandise. Another option is to tighten the rivets. These appear to be modern sex rivets (one fits inside the other). They may tighten by gently pressing in a vise or small arbor press. First class custom knife makers carefuly fit their rivets then bed all the parts in epoxy before setting the rivets. This assures a tight fit of all the parts so that they do not work loose. It also makes a more hygenic knife as crevises where liquids from foods could be trapped and become rancid possibly resulting in food poisioning later. After the epoxy sets the final shaping and finishing is done. In his videos on "Forging Damascus" and book The Complete Modern Bladesmith Jim Hrisoulas briefly covers wire wraping. Like other parts of a blade assembly he seats the parts in epoxy as well as bedding the wire wrap with epoxy. The trick to wire wrap is anchoring the ends. Hrisoulas does it by drilling the wooden core for the ends of the wire as well as collaring or banding the end of the wrap. Another way to do it with a single wrap is the same as wipping the end of a rope. However, in hard materials a groove must be cut so that the underlying wires are tight but do not create a ridge. In this process the wire is made into a large loop with overlapping ends which are set into the groove described above with enough end to pull at the end. The end of the wire where the wrap starts is set into a small reverse angled hole. The wire is then wrapped tightly over the ends inside the loop. The farther from the end of the part being wrapped the more excess will be needed in the loop. When the wrap is completed the end of the loop is pulled through under the wrap until tight. This binds the wrap against the ends so that they cannot work loose. For this to work well the lead in to the wire groove needs a slight radius for the wire to pull around. This is carefully carved with a knife or riffler. After the wire is pulled tight the end is cut and trimmed. In a good design there would be a hole in the end of grip to push the end of the wire into with a small punch that would be covered by the guard or a ferrule. But if the wire is tight from the wrap then trimming flush is sufficient. After rework of this type the grip and the metal are both refinished and then sealed with epoxy or clear lacquer. |
| - guru - Monday, 01/02/06 11:29:55 EST |
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One other aspect of the O1 situation---what's the ambiant temperature of your shop? This time of year many smith's shops are a tad on the cool side and so not only the air is a bit more quenching but the tooling itself can pull a lot of heat out. I recently put a rasptlesnake in my post vise to tweak the tail a bit and had it quench brittle and break where the postvise grabbed it. Pre heating the tools help. Anybody got any Ti angle iron for a set of vise jaw covers that don't transmit the heat as much? Thomas |
| Thomas P - Monday, 01/02/06 13:31:36 EST |
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why not cut to length and then forge sq? perhaps you only need one end squared up? You could of course hot cut the bar you have already squared |
| adam - Monday, 01/02/06 13:53:09 EST |
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What is the best way (and cheapest)to route a 10" coal forge smoke stack through a plywood and shingle roof so I don't burn the place down? The local home depot has 6" pass thrus for 300$ and would not want to know how much a 10" one is. The roof of the shop is 30 degrees and the height of roof is from 9' to 14' depending on where to put the forge. Is it ok to use tar to seal the roof or will the hot pipe melt/burn it? Thank you very much! speedy |
| speedy - Monday, 01/02/06 14:47:47 EST |
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Insulating a Grill: I've got a big shiney stainless steel grill on my deck, tied to the house gas line. I've noticed that the hood, a mere 18ga thick, doesn't doo a terribly good job of holding heat in. I've been wondering about food-safe ways to insulate it. After all, cooking a steak at anything less than 1200 F is a waste... and I've already added a forge burner and heat plate. But, once I've got those temperatures, how can I keep them? Are the ITC products safe for cooking applications? I don't mind the occasional ceramic grit crunchies now and them but I'd hate to die tomorrow, ever from a good steak. Another thought I had was sealing kaowool in a stainless foil envelop and lining the grill lid. Thoughts or suggestions? [and yes, I've already tried cooking on ein mt gas forge. Then there was the day I left my charcoal forge to cool and found my daughter cooking hamburgers over it 20 min later...] MikeM-OH |
| MikeM OH - Monday, 01/02/06 17:58:02 EST |
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Mike, Make an inner lid of stainless steel that allows 1" of clearance to the existing lid. Fill the space between then with Kaowool. |
| vicopper - Monday, 01/02/06 18:10:51 EST |
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Hi. I hope everybody had a happy holiday season. I have a question about a piece of scrap steel that I found. It looks like some kind of control arm for a car. It has two rounded ends, with one end having a threaded bolt protruding through it. The other end contains a bar with a couple of holes in it. I was wondering about the suitability of this piece for a little horn on my makeshift anvil. The anvil is very solid, and works quite well, especially after grinding a fullering edge on one of the ends. But, sometimes a little stubby horn comes in useful. I tried putting a bick in my vise, but it is too shifty and fragile for all but the smallest and least demanding of work. Specifically, the rolled lip candleholder in the iForge proved a bit challenging. It would be nice to have something more solid. The piece has casting sand marks on it, and a mold line running along the side. So, it is cast iron, but it must not be too brittle, since it must withstand some impact as part of the suspension. It spark tests like cast iron, with short bushy (but not rer) sparks. The tang and bolt test as mild steel, and the cap on the rounded end is a higher carbon alloy. Could this be cast steel? If so, would it be OK to weld on, and beat on a little bit. I know that a lot of anvil horns are not hardened steel, yet they can take some beating. I plan to test weld a scrap of steel to the waste side and bang on it a bit to test both weldability and brittleness. But it would be nice to use this piece, since the shape is pretty close. Thanks, Eric |
| EricC - Monday, 01/02/06 19:07:19 EST |
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Eric; short bushy (bursty?) sparking is not cast iron but sounds like a high carbon steel---are you sure that's a mold line and not the flash line from a drop forged item? They can look very similiar at times. If it's the part i am thinking it might be it would not be cast iron but a tough drop forged medium to high carbon steel. If so remember to pre and post heat to avoild cracking in the HAZ of your welds. Thomas |
| Thomas P - Monday, 01/02/06 20:18:56 EST |
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a question about tempering; can you re temper a tool without re hardening it? i am new to making knives and am just getting used to tempering. it is taking practice to see the colors draw out . i've been firing a chunk of steel and setting the blade on it to draw the spectrum out, but seeing the colors is a challenge... |
| justin - Monday, 01/02/06 20:54:59 EST |
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Justin, Steel can be retempered to a softer condition than it was but not harder. To make a piece harder you must go through the entire process. If you are just trying to run colors for practice then use a piece of mild steel. Not that you tempering block only needs to be the temperature that you want to temper at, NOT a lot hotter. If the block is excessivly hot then you will rapidly overshoot your mark. The way I get a controlled temper using a block is to polish its surface, then gently heat on a kitchen stove until it has the temper color that I require. You should be able to reach a stable point where the color does not continue to chnage. Then set you piece to be tempered on the block. The colors will run to the max shown by the heavier block. If you overshoot on the block you must cool, re-polish the surface you are judging temper colors on and try again. Using this method you can achieve very even temper blues on parts that you want to leave colored. It also produces a very even temper. |
| - guru - Monday, 01/02/06 21:16:10 EST |
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Roof pass throughs: Speedy, Part of the price of that $300 part is the UL, CSA and other certifications. These are required anywhere fire codes apply. If fire codes do not apply or you are going to ignore them then you can do it yourself. I DO NOT recommend ignoring the fire codes but sometimes they do not apply AND you can do better. First, simply look at the construction of a double insulated flange. The inner shell (and oven the rest) is stainless steel - thus some of the expense. On a 10" pipe there is a 12" shell and a 14" shell. These can be made from pieces of 6" and 8" galvanized pipe (double seamed to the right diameter. Then using galvanized steel flashing cap the ends with a flange and vent holes to let out hot air and keep out critters. Stand off made from the same flashing should be riveted at each end to hold the shells evenly spaced. The bottom ends of the outer shells can be open to let in cooling air. With some stock bits, tin snips, pop rivets and such you can make a nifty insulated pass through. The down side is coal smoke is pretty hard on even the best galvanized pipe and is why the commenrcial units are stainless. If you can make the inner shell from stainless then the whole will last several decades. Otherwise you may be replacing it in 4 to 6 years. While you are building this you can add a low loss stack cap with very little effort as it uses the same construction techniques. . . |
| - guru - Monday, 01/02/06 21:33:56 EST |
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Thanks, Thomas. The end cap material is high carbon steel. I definitely know the difference between bushy and bursty. Short and bursty means that the sparks only travel a short distance before MIRV'ing into several paths. This spark pattern seems to be more packed with branches (looks like fireworks) than the cast iron type pattern. I calibrated it with an old chisel. The mystery metal is different. Shorter than either high carbon steel or mild steel. Looks more like the malleable iron pattern from "New Lessons in ARC Welding (Lincoln)". But I ground a galvanized elbow, and the spark pattern was different, with the pipe fitting looking more like mild steel. I am starting to suspect that you are correct, however, since the stamped lettering on the part is sharp, which is more characteristic of forged parts. I will try the weld with lo-hy HSLA electrodes, no peening. BTW, I successfully welded up a cracked Japanese cast iron vise with 6013 where brazing failed, by torch preheating, peening heavily and slow, buried cooling.. |
| EricC - Monday, 01/02/06 22:09:27 EST |
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hi there. i was reading through your page and you mentioned titanium nitrate for coating blades. i have 2 questions in regards to this. one, does one use a electro phoresis method for titanium nitrate coating, if not how? second would be where can i get some titanium nitrate, if you know of anywhere that would have consitant alloys. |
| Benjamin Deverell - Monday, 01/02/06 23:24:16 EST |
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Justin, Are you taking the scale off down to bare metal? You need to do that before watching for color. I had a student who wanted to "re temper", because he was unsure of the first tempering heat and colors. I told him he couldn't guess, that he had to normalize and harden again. He said, "Ya mean, I only got one shot at the rainbow?" I said, "Yeah pal, only one shot." |
| Frank Turley - Tuesday, 01/03/06 00:09:26 EST |
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Thanks vicopper, guru, thomas, and adam for replying to my query on O1 steel. It helped open my eyes to what had happened and why. I had assumed that it had air hardened as it was the only locigal thing I could think of. Then again, you know what they say about assumptions... I would purchase the O1 in square rod or flat bar if the supplier( Fastenal) had it at their store. They have, if my memory is right, for 1/4" up to 3/4", going up in 1/16" increments. I just happened to see it one day and picked up a length. Fastenal does have precision ground flat bar O1 on their website, but at this point in time i don't think i can quite afford to purchase it and have several bars shipped. I will keep it in mind though. The reason i forged the whole bar square( actually a litle more on the rectangualr side) is because i have a preference to work with flat tools when doing repousse, which i believe i have Dave Edwards to thank for that( he is the designer of the Persimmon Forge Pedal Hammer, which I would highly recommend to anyone doing repousse. it is quite a joy to use). I did end up hut cutting the bar to the lengths i needed, and then turned them into the chisels I needed. So far they seem to hold up good underneath my treadle hammer. On the next batch i make, i may go ahead and cut into the needed lenghts and then forge down. Thomas, right now it is supposed to be winter here in Southeast Missouri, but the air temp when i was forging the O1 was actually about 60 degrees . My shop is just a small wooden building with no insulation, so the ambient temp in my shop was probably right around the air temperature. It was actually warm enough to make me sweat a little, something unsual around here in winter! Thanks guys for your help. I will definitely put it to good use! Thanks, Ian Wille |
| Ian "Blueboy" Wille - Tuesday, 01/03/06 00:15:45 EST |
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Hi I am using a wood fire for forging right now naturally aspirated it will heat carriage bolts to a red orange color is there any reason why I should upgrade to a coal fired forge and will anything stop me from forge welding in my wood fire after I get a blower anyother insights would help. |
| stephen - Tuesday, 01/03/06 10:28:24 EST |
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I have a pair of cold chisels that I forged from W1 in Frank's class when he taught us tempering by the rainbow. I use them often. |
| adam - Tuesday, 01/03/06 11:11:18 EST |
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Stephan; what you are actually using is a charcoal fired forge where you are making the charcoal as you go along. Charcoal was the fuel for the first thousand years of the iron age and you can forge weld with it---all the patternwelded viking swords were done in charcoal forges and they still use charcoal forges in welding up japanese swords today. Now usually a forge designed for it's work will heat faster and with better atmosphere control. not knowing your design I can't speak to how it would work anymore than you can tell me if my vehicle will win races if I put a supercharger on it. In general you need a deeper charcoal fire and a lot lower air velocity to get a good welding fire from charcoal. If I'm using charcoal in my coal forge I would place a couple of firebricks next to the firepot to get a deeper fire to work with. Thomas |
| Thomas P - Tuesday, 01/03/06 11:58:52 EST |
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Speedy, another option, the one that I chose for my garage shop, is to go with a masonry chimney. I put in a 16-foot tall stack of 4" block with brick spacers, designed to use 12" square flue tile liners. The cost for the materials AND labor (two masons to help/do the actual work) came in at under $350. The big problem is it isn't easy to modify, so you better be sure it's where you want it to be! The good part is that a lined masonry chimney will generally meet any code they can throw at you. |
| Alan-L - Tuesday, 01/03/06 13:28:55 EST |
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Eric C, you can thin the lip of the pipe for that candleholder on the edge of the anvil with a crosspein if you've got good aim. If not, it'll help teach you good aim! (grin!) |
| Alan-L - Tuesday, 01/03/06 13:48:43 EST |
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Little giant power hammer question. does anyone know how to make shrinking dies for this machine for shrinking sheetmetal into a dome shape? |
| - Michael Kuehn - Tuesday, 01/03/06 13:55:55 EST |
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I think the Hammerin is broken |
| adam - Tuesday, 01/03/06 14:49:15 EST |
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Yep, it was broken. A file write error trashed the file. . I repaired it but lost several days posts. Thanks! |
| - guru - Tuesday, 01/03/06 14:59:22 EST |
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For those that are interested, David Kayne is now on HGTV's Dream home online video - Handmade Hardware. Here is the website: http://www.hgtv.com/hgtv/pac_ctnt_988/text/0,,HGTV_22056_32757,00.html Click on the Handmade Hardware Video to watch. Happy New Year, Steve Kayne |
| Steve Kayne - Tuesday, 01/03/06 15:52:54 EST |
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Benjamin Deverell, Sorry, but the answers to your questions are, "no" and "no." Most Titanium nitride coatings are applied by vapor deposition in a controlled prewssure/atmosphere chamber. One makes the titanium nitride by burning or vaporizing titanium in a nitrogen atmosphere. The boiling point of titanium is somewhere around 6000ºF, so it takes special equipment to make the TiN. There are commercial plating and coating shops that can apply a TiN coating to metals; check Thomas Register. That is also where you would look to find suppliers of specialized materials. TiN can be made by powdered metal sintering, but again, it is done in a controlled pressure/atmosphere chamber, not in a home workshop. |
| vicopper - Tuesday, 01/03/06 15:53:50 EST |
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I saw Titanium NITRATE mentioned above. The material used for coating cutting tools is Titanium NITRIDE. Totally different stuff! |
| - John Odom - Tuesday, 01/03/06 17:18:30 EST |
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Did my first forge weld yesterday at another smith's shop. Made a folded hatchet out of a file. Got it too hot and hit it too hard on the first try but I got it the second time. So now I'm thinking about keeping my whimper baby for my regular stuff and build a small, but hot forge for welding, and welding only. Welding things such as small hatchets, fireplace tools etc. What can I make the floor out of that will be easy to cut and be resistant to flux? |
| Tyler Murch - Tuesday, 01/03/06 20:17:52 EST |
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thanks alot thomas right now im actually using a cut off 45 gallon drum burried in the ground a little primitive but it does the trick i will probably have a forge custom made or make it myself what depth of the firepot would you suggest |
| stephen - Tuesday, 01/03/06 20:40:32 EST |
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What IS molten flux corrosive to? |
| Tyler Murch - Tuesday, 01/03/06 20:55:39 EST |
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Tyler Use a kiln shelf, you can get them from a ceramic supply store, or find a pottery studio near you, kiln shelves get broken all the time, and part of one maybe all you need, so you might get one free. Happy New Year All! Bart |
| blackbart - Tuesday, 01/03/06 21:38:30 EST |
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I have a Miller Trailblazer Welder. My gas tank has trash in it leading to susequent problems. It isn't fesible to move it. How can I clean out the tank? |
| Tammy - Tuesday, 01/03/06 22:11:51 EST |
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Tammy: Short of removing the tank about all You can do is drain it and swab it with paper towels tied to the end of a stick, add some clean fuel and repeat untill it ts clean. Using a funnel with a fine screen helps prevent this problem in the future. |
| Dave Boyer - Tuesday, 01/03/06 22:25:05 EST |
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Kayne's Great Job on the Hardware!! The video was great! Always a Pleasure!! |
| burntforge - Tuesday, 01/03/06 23:15:35 EST |
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Hi Alan-L. Wow! The author of the iForge demo. Thanks for the tip. From what I imagine, one would place the pipe at a right angle to the anvil edge, with the lip just resting on the anvil face with the pipe angling down. Then, hit with the corner of a cross peen hammer with the peen coaxial with the pipe? This would work if the peen hit far enough into the pipe opening. I'm afraid that I am not accurate enough to taper the lip this way. Once the taper is done, the rolling is much easier over the anvil edge, but even then, I recall having to cheat a little to start it. I will have to give it a dry run to see how it works out. By the way, the candleholder came out just great, anyway, on the first try. It is really simple, but attractive, with all the interacting curves. Great design; thanks for contributing it! I think that the iForge demo's are great, and a slight slip in quality would be well worth the addition of new demos. |
| EricC - Wednesday, 01/04/06 02:47:54 EST |
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I'm looking for a used anvil for a high school concert band piece... it will be played in the percussion section. What kind of places might have one "gathering dust"? I haven't ever run across one at the local thrift shops, etc. Where should I go to hunt for an anvil? Don't really want to spend $500-1000 for a new one, maybe a couple hundred. Size?...the bigger the better, it would probably be louder... Residing in Santa Barbara, California. Thanks for any ideas! |
| Dan Garske - Wednesday, 01/04/06 03:24:48 EST |
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Dan Garske: I recommend contacting the California Blacksmith Ass'n as they may be able to help you find a suitable ringing anvil. Rather than giving the link, go up to the NAVIGATE anvilfire box and click on the arrow. Then scroll down to the bottom for the ABANA Chapter link and look for them. One of their members might have one beyond economical repair, but suitable for your purpose. Essentially you need either a good cast steel or wrought-iron body, steel plate anvil. A cast iron, cast iron bodied with steel plate or cheap cast steel (such as the Asian imports) won't give you the ring you are seeking. Also, if you put a piece of thin stryofoam under the anvil it will increase the ring. Some years ago I had a guy call on an anvil I had listed. His brother was in a play in NYC which called for an anvil being worked on and it needed the 'ring'. He wasn't satisfied with the one I had sitting on the concrete floor. However, once I slipped a torn up styrofoam cup under it, it rang nicely. Story: Golly I guess 18 or so years ago I attended a conference for the Northwest Ohio Blacksmith Ass'n. Ron Thompson was a demonstrator and noted the anvil he was provided was inferior because it didn't have much of a ring. While he was distracted by a question with his back to the anvil another guy and I slipped styrofoam cup pieces under the anvil. When he next used it his expression should have been caught on camera. You might also do a search on anvil in the Collectible category on eBay. Probably a dozen listed there now, but the price (and S&H) likely make them out of your consideration zone. |
| - Ken Scharabok - Wednesday, 01/04/06 07:29:52 EST |
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Anvil music: Dan, what are you going to hit the anvil with? The Blue Man Group uses an anvil ring in one of their songs and hit it with a crescent wrench. I can't tell the size from where I sat, but it's a good-sized one - maybe 2"? I think the wrench helps with a ring of its own. One thing about BMG, they've got a good concept of "found" percussion instruments. Also, the softer steel of the wrench is probably safer than using a hammer. |
| - Marc - Wednesday, 01/04/06 08:52:37 EST |
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Tyler, A major purpose of flux is to disolve metal oxides. Most refractories are made of metal oxides. It may be that not all fluxes dissolve all refractories, but it's kind of like storing acid in a metal container -- there's a basic incompatablity. I a kiln shelf, as Dave suggested. It gets consumed, but will last a year or two with occasional welding. Silicon carbide kiln shelves are available for more money and are supposed to last longer. Several folks I know use castable refractory and are happy with that. |
| Mike B - Wednesday, 01/04/06 08:53:52 EST |
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i am trying to make a mould of a clay target,the type shotguns shoot at in skeet.it is a bacalite tye material.the mould will be open. straight pour from the top.i have tried setting it in plaster,pushing it into wet plaster but it wont remove after setting.pushing it into clay but it sticks and if left wont remove.i have tried laquering oiling before pushing or setting.this will be my first mould/if i can achive it. i have i great interest and this will be my starting point. can you help. regards.. BIG_DAVE |
| big_dave - Wednesday, 01/04/06 09:14:54 EST |
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Parting Agents and Molds: Dave, the parting agent for molds varies greatly. When plastics are used you need smoething that is non-soluable and non-absorbant by the particular resin. Normally you go to the manufacturer of the resin for advice. The surface of your master part is also critical. I finish and polish master patterns to a brilliant finish. Shape is also critical. If there is any kind of overhang or non-drafted surface then the part will not come out no matter what. However, good old fashioned suction is also a problem. Some force is always required to break the surface adhesion by vacuum. For plaster molds (the type normally used to mold clay pigeons) soap makes a good parting agent for making the molds. I use Ivory soap and make a slurry of it. Then it is applied to the master and supporting clay with a water color brush and let dry. After it is dry a fine brush is used to break any bubbles that have formed. Molds for this type object are two piece and spun on potter's wheel. They have a lip to keep the clay in so that it does not spin out from centrifugal force. A measured amount of clay slip is poured while the mold is turning, the plaster drys the clay enough to handle and the mold is removed, split and the part removed. Then the mold is put back onto the wheel and another part poured. When the plaster gets too wet to dry the clay efficiently the mold is replaced while the wet mold dries. You often need three or four molds and a method to dry them to keep up continous production. Two piece molds of this type can also made by machining the plaster but this is inefficient and messy. However, it DOES work and leaves crisp parting edges. Plastic and metal molds are more often machined from solid rather than molded expcept when the die and mold maker is an expert at handling plastic resins OR the shape is such that machining is very difficult. If any of this sounds confusing then get a book on production pottery from the library. See also my iForge demo #98 and #99. |
| - guru - Wednesday, 01/04/06 11:50:54 EST |
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flux eats kaowool like gasoline on styrofoam. it will do the same to most soft hi temp firebricks too. I use high alumina use a hard refractory floor (Mizzou) and I like to put a thin liner of the same on the inside of the kaowool chamber. |
| adam - Wednesday, 01/04/06 11:53:08 EST |
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More on Parting Agents and Mold Making: Silicon waxes and oils are often recommended but are not compatible with many resins. I do not like them because they can cause setup failures and are impossible to clean sufficiently to paint over. Spay non-stick cooking agents like PAM often contain silicon and so do car waxes. When I use a wax parting agent I use Bowling Alley wax. When making molds for ceramics work you often make a set of master molds OR a single follower mold for making replacement molds. I find that clear or colored lacquer improves the plaster surface for the master and works well with soap parting agent. DO NOT use sealer on the working molds. As noted above, they absorb the water from clay and must have clean open surfaces. This is also why using silicones or oils are bad practice on slip casting molds. The soap does not seal the mold and washes off. |
| - guru - Wednesday, 01/04/06 12:02:51 EST |
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EricC: You have the right idea, but keep the pipe flat on the anvil and use angling blows with the hammer, such that you pinch the very edge of the pipe between the pein and the anvil corner. This will both thin and stretch the egde of the pipe, giving you a natural outwards curve you can then start rolling. This is, in fact, a better way to do that than using the anvil horn, as when I use the tip of the horn it tends to swell the pipe so much I have to swedge it back down to size to be able to hold a candle straight! Another hint: When you start rolling the pipe back on itself, use glancing blows from the ball of a 36 or 40 ounce ball pein to open the rim and roll it back on itself, then switch to a slightly domed face hammer like a farriers' rounding hammer to finish the rolling. This results in less distortion on the rim. Glad you liked the demo! I haven't done one of those holders in a while, maybe I ought to. I can't take credit for the design, by the way, but thanks. I got it from Elmer Rousch, and he got it from someone else, and so on down the line. Like most decorative smithwork, as long as you have the eye for proportion you can make most designs look good. |
| Alan-L - Wednesday, 01/04/06 12:10:29 EST |
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Anvil Ring: Anvils with a long thin heel and a long horn and a slim waist ring louder than squat ones. My travelling demo anvil is a ringer---brings in people; but my production anvil is a nice quiet Fisher... Thomas |
| Thomas P - Wednesday, 01/04/06 12:19:54 EST |
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Musical Anvils: One of the oldest anvil illustrations I have is from Syntagma musicum II, De organographia, by Michael Praetorious published in 1619.  This is not a very musical shaped anvil but if hard enough it would ring. At this date an anvil would be steel faced wrought. Note the various instruments used to play the anvil, hammers of different sizes and even an ax! The scale is feet and inches so this anvil is 15 to 16".Anvil shape makes a great difference in how it rings. The modern American pattern exemplified by Hay-Budden has a narrow waist that seperates the masses of the base and the upper body so that it vibrates like a tuning fork. The two nearly equal masses create a standing wave at the hinge (waist) thus having a self reinforcing sustain. The harder the anvil the higher the pitch and longer the sustain. Swedish Kohlswa anvils of the American pattern are probably one of the loudest anvils ever manufactured. However, many other American pattern cast and forged anvils are very loud. How and where you strike the anvil makes a great difference in the tone. Striking the body from the side slightly off center gives a low tone while striking on the tip of the horn gives a high tone. The loudest sound comes from striking the side of the heel. As pointed out by others how the anvil is supported makes a great difference in the sound. If supported on a soft surface so that it can vibrate without dampening it will have the greatest volume and sustain. Glogenspiels use two pieces of twisted cord at the null points of the bar (1/4 from each end). A couple pieces of rope would do the same for an anvil or as Ken pointed out a layer of styrofoam. Over the years there have been a number of mucical blacksmiths that could play a tune on an anvil. I can get a wide range of notes from mine but alas I am the least musical person you will ever meet. . . An old beat to pieces anvil would make nearly as good a musical anvil as a new one. However, one method of finding flaws in an anvil is to strike and listen for a disonance or buzz. This is and indication of a hidden crack or weld seperation. When testing an anvil all you need to do is tilt it a little and put a pencil or small piece of something under the side so that most of the base is unsupported. If it does not ring brightly under this condition it will not ring well at all. |
| - guru - Wednesday, 01/04/06 12:45:20 EST |
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Hi I just found this site and can not stop reading all the great info. I am 43 years old, I live in Mass. USA, and I am a Machine Millwright by trade, I have been doing metal fab. and auto repair on the side for many years. I have been thinking of building a power hammer, my question is has any one ever used a 90# air jack hammer as the head unit for a power hammer? I have seen many air planishing hammers using air rivet,chisel guns, but I have 2 Ingersol Rand 90# pavement breakers ( jack hammers )lying around with no use for them. thanks Dean |
| Dean Francois - Wednesday, 01/04/06 14:50:19 EST |
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I am working w/ the Smokey Mountian Green energy park to build a blacksmith shop that will be equipped with forges fueled by methane harvested from an old landfill. Do you know of anybody that has built methane forges, is there any info on what it takes as compared to propane? |
| Matthew Shirey - Wednesday, 01/04/06 14:58:00 EST |
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There are a number of natural gas forges available commercially. The difference is usally in the size of the orifice and the pressure the gas is delivered at---a low pressure system will probably not have an orifice but dump the gas out the end of the pipe for a blown forge. Dean there used to be two web pages on home build hammers using jackhammers as the power source. I don't know if they are still around anymore. The big problem is that the "throw" of a jackhammer is extremely limited and so it limits their utility---can't put tooling under it without some sort of height adjustment. I do recall that they mentioned that the hammer needed to be spring mounted as they were not designed for a rigid mount and would do themselves an injury if there wasn't some give---they were designed for the user to "hang their belly over them" was what I rememberd the site saying if you have the compressor for a pneumatic jack hammer you probably would be better off building a hammer using a pneumatic cylinder---lots of good ones to look at out there. Thomas |
| Thomas P - Wednesday, 01/04/06 15:35:24 EST |
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hi I m looking for some documentation about the foundations for a power hammer, if you have some good draught i thank you for your help! if it is french it's welcome Bye |
| mat - Wednesday, 01/04/06 17:44:32 EST |
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Can burning galvanization off, YES IVE READ THE I-FORGE, contaminate forge welds? Thanks everybody. |
| Tyler Murch - Wednesday, 01/04/06 19:16:39 EST |
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Dean-- I had the honour of running a jack hammer (horizontally)one summer long ago, and have used them since and I cannot imagine gearing the monster down enough to be able to control the blows with any precision for metal work. Handling a 50-pound Little Giant is difficult enough. As Thomas says, they are designed for the operator to absorb a lot of the kick. |
| Miles Undercut - Wednesday, 01/04/06 19:55:07 EST |
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Matehew Shirey, Landfill methane is usually at very low pressure, and often has a large amount of moisture. I do know that here in the Louisville area they are capturing methane from a large landfill and firing boilers at G.E. Appliance park but only during the summer as the gas is a lower btu content than the utillity supplied methane. I suspect that to use the methane in a forge may require a mixer blower something like is used on large industrial blowers. This would suck the low pressure gas in the blower inlet, along with air to provide a pressurized flow of gas/air to the burner. |
| - ptree - Wednesday, 01/04/06 19:59:10 EST |
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I burn zinc off scrap steel and have no problem welding in my gasser. I set up a big fan an leave the garage. I am a lot more careful since zinc fumes killed a friend of mine but I still do it from time to time. |
| adam - Wednesday, 01/04/06 20:02:13 EST |
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Question for the metalurgists; I have come onto a source of very nicely sized die return springs. They forge soft and easy under the hammer, and if quenched in water get harder than woodpecker lips. Oil quench appears about the same, and air quench will just allow a bite by a new file. Grain is nice and fine by the Mk-1 eyeball. Upon asking the guys at work, and getting some translation from the Japanese, I am told these are ASTM A-401. I looked this up and got to "Chrome silicone spring wire". It would appear that the silicon helps reduce the grain, but I don't know much else about these springs. Any composition and heat treating advice would be well appreciated. Intended use is knife blades, scribers etc. |
| - ptree - Wednesday, 01/04/06 20:05:15 EST |
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Dean: I have never seen a general-purpose smithing hammer built from a jackhammer. I have seen special purpose rock-drill bit sharpening hammers built, by IR using the works of a 90# jackhammer. I think you would be better off using the air supply to build a conventional air Hammer. |
| - John Odom - Wednesday, 01/04/06 20:21:20 EST |
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Zinc burning: I also have burned the galvanization off of some conduit and am still able to forge weld. Same thing here - I had the garage doors open, a big fan running, and I left the area. The funny part is, as the fumes were still blowing out of the shop, and I'm there just outside in my filthy apron and safety glasses, a couple Jehova's Witnesses came up to talk. They're amazing people. The scene didn't faze them one bit. We had a nice talk while the shop aired out, and I got some wonderful reading material. |
| - Marc - Wednesday, 01/04/06 21:04:07 EST |
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Matthew Shirey-- The New Alchemy Institute, for which see google, published in 1973 a booklet giving a detailed run-down on getting methane out of organic wastes and using it to run a diesel engine, a 6-brake rototiller, etc. The title is "Methane Digesters for Fuel Gass and Fertilzer with complete instructions for two working models." There is a big catch to using methane for fuel: according to the booklet, mathane yields just 896 to 1069 btu per cubic foot as compared to 2,200 to 2,600 btu per cubic foot for propane. And "it takes nearly 5,000 PSI to liquefy it for easy storage... So a great deal of storage is required of methane for a given amount of work." |
| Miles Undercut - Wednesday, 01/04/06 21:12:49 EST |
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ptree, A401 is a spring material designed to resist set when used at moderately high temperatures. The chemistry is as follows: Carbon = .51/.59, Manganese = .60/.80, Silicon = 1.20/1.60, Chromium = .60/.80. The high silicon will retard decaruburization and stabilize ferrite. Chromium is added to make up the hardenability that is lost due to high silicon. It should be, and stay, very fine grained. Being medium high carbon, it should harden enough to make a nice blade. I would harden at 100 degrees past non-magnetic and temper it at 400F for 1 hour as a trial. You may have to adjust those temperatures a bit. |
| quenchcrack - Wednesday, 01/04/06 21:13:37 EST |
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Flux on kaowool: I believe it was TxFarrier who said that flux goes through kaowool like puke through a prom dress. Yup. |
| quenchcrack - Wednesday, 01/04/06 21:20:25 EST |
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have a large anvil and many adapter parts for it and many hammers and some tools and was wondering where i should list these items to sell them thanks Dan |
| Dan - Wednesday, 01/04/06 21:33:06 EST |
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Ptree: If You happen into any Raymond brand die springs they are made of SAE6150. They are color coded Blue, Red Gold & Green from light to heavy. |
| Dave Boyer - Wednesday, 01/04/06 22:41:04 EST |
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Matthew Shirey-- p.s. re: the New Alchemy Institute's methane booklet. Much as I am aware of the Institute's revered reputation amongst the holistic Birkenstock set and the yurt-dwelling back to the landers, I am vastly unimpressed by the safety features (none to speak of that I can see, no flashback arrestors, etc.) on the models in their booklet. As witnessed by those poor unfortunate miners in West Virginia, methane (coal gas) is not to be trifled with. It might be low in BTUs, but it can make you become real fatal real quick if a lot of it gets ignited in a confined area-- such as the storage tank or the digester. I think this notion of heating forges with it belongs with the home acetylene generator. Lots of farmers and shops had one once upon a time. No more. Too dangerous. |
| Miles Undercut - Wednesday, 01/04/06 22:48:27 EST |
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hey guru here's a tricky one atleast for me. How do you layout the end of a pipe with angles so as to use the pipe, heated and beat together to close it off sort of like a bullet shape? |
| ken - Wednesday, 01/04/06 23:00:30 EST |
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Ken, If it were me, I'd neck it down with a fuller as tight as possible, cut it with a hacksaw, and shape it to taste. Sort of like what Alan L. did to make the ball end in iForge demo #104. Of course, math and I have never been good friends. Eric |
| eander4 - Wednesday, 01/04/06 23:45:56 EST |
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Dan: Go to the drop-down menu on the top right of this page and click on the "Hammer-In" (forum). Post what you've got and what you'd like for them. There will definitely be someone interested in them. They'll reply to you through your email or the forum. If you've got pictures of your items, that'll help. Put a ruler or common item, such as a coin or pen, in the photos so that people can better estimate the items' sizes. You can email them to interested parties, or post them on our Yahoo "User Gallery", also in the drop-down menu. Good luck and thanks for visiting. |
| Koomori - Thursday, 01/05/06 00:03:05 EST |
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Hemisphere from Cylinders: Map people have been fooling with this problem for ages to find a good solution. In practical forging folks just start the end, heat it and force into a die. The other way that is cleaner is to start with at least one diameter extra, use a scissor fullering tool to neck down to solid then cut off and dress. For fun try Conformal Mapping |
| - guru - Thursday, 01/05/06 10:01:22 EST |
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Matthew Shirey-- Just for kicks, I looked at my favorite online book source, http://www.campusi.com/ and found the New Alchemy booklet on methane digesters, one copy available-- for a mere $75. Well, sir, you can probably find much the same stuff a whole lot cheaper in that oldie but goodie, entitled Other Homes and Garbage, a Sierra Club book published in 1975, which has a lot of interesting stuff re: methane digesters, methane fuel consumption tables in various uses, safety, etc. You might also inquire at the Brit group Intermediate Technologies, which does books aimed at helping Third Worlders flourish in the boonies, how to make rudimentary tools such as simple Hossfeld-type benders, and then use them to make farm wagons, etc. Methane from veggies sounds like just their Mother Earth-type cup of tea, although it might be a bit advanced. http://www.itdgpublishing.org.uk/ |
| Miles Undercut - Thursday, 01/05/06 11:40:24 EST |
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Ken; If you're gonna do pipefitting layout of ANY kind, get yourself a copy of "The Pipefitter's and Pipe Welder's Handbook" by Thomas W. Frankland. It'll be the best $20 expenditure you'll ever make on that subject. It will address your question specifically by showing you the "Orange Peel" method of laying out the end of the pipe. This is THE book for pipefitters. I've had my copy for over 25 years. To get a look at the contents, go to Pipefitter.com. This book is said to be one of the reasons that Carhartt put that little pocket on the inside of their welder's jacket. I'm sure there will be a few "Amens" from the congregation about this book. |
| 3dogs - Thursday, 01/05/06 11:48:37 EST |
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MILES; You've just reminded me of the Mother Earth News/Whole Earth Catalog thing fron the 70's. "101 Things a Boy Can Do With 47 Tons of Pig 'n' Chicken Poop" by Ram Bux Singh. (BTW, I still have my 2 copies of "The Whole Earth Catalog", Id be willing to bet that you do, too.) |
| 3dogs - Thursday, 01/05/06 11:56:27 EST |
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3dogs, Sounds like you just volunteered to do a book review for us! Mother Earth News: At one time I was a subscriber and avid reader. . . Then they moved from North Carolina where their farm near Asheville had become Yuppie heaven and escape country for the rich to NEW YORK CITY! Just like in the commercials, "Where was your favorite southern concoction made, NEW YORK CITY! . . They would have a lot more relevance if they had moved to any rural area. . . Now, I will admit that it has been a LONG time since I read a copy of Mother Earth News but I do remember that an awful lot of their articles had a McQuiverish bent to them and none considered cost-benefit ratios. Just HOW MUCH petro fuel did you put in that tractor, and how much wear on the petro tires and depreciation of the petro steel made vehical hauling that manure and how many hours did you spend to make how little methane???? On the other hand they were on the forefront of some very ingenious solar heating ideas that have all gone to the rubish heap because it is still cheaper to burn oil than to maintain a complicated corrosion prone solar system that poops out when the sun doesn't shine. . I am a firm believer that we need solar and more efficient housing. But the only way to make it work is to make it profitable AND to legislate it. Some places require solar hot water heaters and many more should. The more systems that are needed the lower the cost will become and the better the designs. Where real R&D is needed is in solar AC or low cost ground sink heat pump systems. These need to become so cost effective that it is worth removing a standard system and replacing it. |
| - guru - Thursday, 01/05/06 12:56:54 EST |
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Jock; Mother Earth News is still out there, but they have gone from VW Bus to Volvo station wagon. (Real Hippies got no dough, and don't actually BUY magazines.) Odd, isn't it how many of the stereotype Socialist Utopian types have become Yuppified money grubbers like the rest of us, and are now populating the $450,000 "all house/no lot" subdivisions, with SUV, and/or pricey import in the driveway? Mother Earth News even has a website, but her devotees are in the 'burbs, not in the hills of Kentucky or Arkansas. |
| 3dogs - Thursday, 01/05/06 13:29:14 EST |
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I am looking for design plans to build a slip roller about 30" - 36" long with 3 adjustable rollers (about 1 1/2 - 2" diameter) for stainless steel up to 14 gauge. I also want to add a motor to it to use a foot pedal. I've been making armor for SCA for about a year and a half and no longer have access to the slip roller I was using. I need to build my own. Needs to be able to roll sheet metal for breast plates and shields |
| Denise - Thursday, 01/05/06 13:50:32 EST |
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Guru, Actually there are viable alternatives to AC that use no power once installed. Does require digging trenches to install the ducting. Saw a house in Colorado ( a few miles East of Denver back in the early 80's that the Government and a few Universities colaborated on. had the AC I spoke of and had various other systems for heat ( mostly passive solar) The first years heating and cooling costs were less than 100.00 They metered the other electric seperatly. BTW if the alternative energy stuff is legislated it will never be profitable. Would be too many regs and hoops to jump thru In my opinion |
| Ralph - Thursday, 01/05/06 13:54:40 EST |
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3dogs-- I not only have two of them, I have THREE of them, the original, the so-called Last one, and then something called the NEXT one. It was in that first wonderful compendium in 1973 or so that I happened upon a blurb re: a cat named Turley who was teaching blacksmithing in Santa Fe and thus did my life take a wonderfully lonnnnnnnnnng and serendipitous detour into a magical world of burn blisters and toxic fumes! Jock-- the cost/benefit thing re: methane was what I was trying to hint at, that plus what seems to me to be the amazing safety hazard. What cut solar off at the kneecaps was the elimination or cut-back in tax credits for same by pols who love to prattle about "energy policy" and don't seem able to formulate one nor have the guts to abide by one if they did. |
| Miles Undercut - Thursday, 01/05/06 14:37:19 EST |
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Denise- a slip roll that will roll 14 ga stainless will have to be a bit bigger than you describe. A 2" diameter roll will roll 22ga mild steel, or 24 ga stainless. For 14 ga stainless, in a 36" width, you would be talking about something like a 4" diameter roll. To make your own, you need a big lathe, a big mill, and the ability to cut, and weld something like 3" plate. The only plans I have seen for sheet metal rolls are Dave Gingery's, available from Lindsay publications (google em) and his use 1 1/2" x 24" rolls- this might do 18 ga mild steel. His plans are 10 bucks, and a good place to start. I have a set of powered rolls that will honestly do 4' wide 14 ga stainless all day long- they cost about 5 grand new, have a 2hp 3phase motor on em, and weigh in at about 1000lbs. This is about what you should be building, if you really need to roll 14 ga.ss. We get people all the time asking why there isnt a $100 tool made from junk that will do exactly what a $10,000 machine will- and the answer is that weight, mass, good materials, machining, electricals, and powerful motors all cost money. It is true that if you have the knowhow, tools, and time, and are willing to work for nothing (boy does my wife like the sound of that!) you can make tools cheaper than you can buy em. But there is no free lunch. I would suggest watching ebay, instead, and looking for a good pexto, roper whitney, or tennsmith roll, and being realistic about the size of material it will bend. |
| - ries - Thursday, 01/05/06 14:42:35 EST |
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3dogs-- Oops, by cracky, I plumb near forgot, I have here beside me nothing less than a two-foot-high stack of UNREAD Whole Earth Reviews!! Yup, I answered a notice in the local Trash to Treasures column and went and got 'em a few years ago. Gonna brew me a potful of Red Zinger some winter eve and get into them. Someday. It says here. Hey, I thought Mother Earth was part of the Rodale empire, that Time Inc. of the counter-culture, but it ain't. It's part of yet another empire altogether, Ogden, in Kansas, which does Steam Traction, Herbs for Health, Grit, Gas Enegine and other such compelling must-read mags. |
| Miles Undercut - Thursday, 01/05/06 15:28:34 EST |
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SCRAP SS SOURCES: I feel like from anvilfire I've got the pulse on good sources of scrap (cheap) mild steel and even some high carbon and high carbon alloy steels. The scrounger in me is set on those fronts. On the 304 stainless front, though, I'm lacking. Are there some good sources of 304 hiding where I just don't know it? Is there some handy supply just lurking under my nose? I know that not everyone buys their 5160, for instance, when they can find some easily in some auto coil springs. Is there a similar repository for SS? |
| Matthew Groves - Thursday, 01/05/06 15:52:05 EST |
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Scrapyards near chicken processing plants tend to be heavy on the stainless in my NW AR experience... I live in a passive solar house in NM and feel that anybody in this area *not* building them should be staked out over an anthill---especially where we are and don't have natural gas. I've been here nearly 2 winters now and we have never used the "back-up" electric heat---we're about 5000' elevation and it's been quite comfy wandering around in my skivies in the early morning lately. When we do get cold windy weather the woodstove is enough to keep us comfortable. Last winter our "heat bill" was $70 for the half cord of wood we burnt---and a lot of that was because we like fires... Thomas |
| Thomas Powers - Thursday, 01/05/06 18:09:46 EST |
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Hello, this site was referred to me by Magnus. I buy and sell used machinery and he bought some tinsmith tools from me, around the middle of last year. I just opened up a new classifieds website for the public to buy and sell machinery: http://equiplist.net. I worked very hard setting it up for all of December, and released it for alpha testing Jan 3rd. I sent out an email to the folks I have done business with, and so far 6 have registered on the site. I know, 9 members show on the site stats, but 3 are myself, an employee, and a test account. Well, I sure could use a few more registrations. Would greatly appreciate it if a few of you folks that are regulars here would check it out. Best Regards, Barry Kramer, Equipment Recyclers, 443-220-1300, Baltimore MD. |
| Barry Kramer - Thursday, 01/05/06 18:21:10 EST |
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"Ken; If you're gonna do pipefitting layout of ANY kind, get yourself a copy of "The Pipefitter's and Pipe Welder's Handbook" by Thomas W. Frankland..." Suspect I'm this Ken. Actually the only pipe joining I do is the 3 1/2" to 4" for the one model of knive vise. Whoever (bless them) told me to put two 30 degree cuts at the end essentially solved my problem. WHOLE lot easier than torch guessing. |
| Ken Scharabok - Thursday, 01/05/06 18:37:18 EST |
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Note to Rick in the VI: I finally figured out why I couldn't use a hole saw to put in oval holes in the side of the culvert as you described at Quad-State. The hole saw I was using was simply too short (about 1" deep). Found long ones at local hardware and they don't drop into hole before the cut is make. Thank you. |
| Ken Scharabok - Thursday, 01/05/06 18:40:45 EST |
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Slip Rolls: Denise, What you are describing is probably an engineering impossibility. Rolls are limited by their deflection under load and 14 gauge SS is pretty stiff stuff. Most rolls this size are limited to 18 or even 20 ga mild steel. However, they are often overloaded. . . I have a forming machine with 2.25" diameter rolls made back in the 1800's that are limited to 22 ga. Of course the old machines had steel shafts with cast iron rolls cast around the shaft. . . This had better friction and were stiffer than steel rools but were not as strong and easily cracked. The trick to making slip rolls is that they need gears and the gears need to be keyed to the shafts. They must also be bastard gears that can work at different center distances. Standard gears work at ONE engagement distance and are REALLY rough when too close or too loose by a few thousandths of an inch. When motorizing something like this you need a LOT of reduction gearing. Common motors turn 1800 RPM and you want 10 to 20 RPM at the rolls. This is 180 to 90:1 gearing. Normally a double worm reducer is used to get this much reduction. However, a single reduction worm of 40:1 with a 4.25 to 2.25:1 primary belt reduction would also work. To this this reduction in a reasonable package requires either worm drives or a special double reduction back gear drive like they use on lathes. Then there are rolls (forming machines) and there are "slip" rolls which have the top roller bearing open and the roller tips up on a special gimbled bearing. . . All specialized parts requiring machining. Ries suggestion to watch ebay and othe auctions is a good one. |
| - guru - Thursday, 01/05/06 18:52:35 EST |
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Here is a link to my rolls- these are some of the most inexpensive rolls around, mostly made in Turkey. www.coletuve.com They will be happy to send, or probably email you a catalog with specs, and you can see what kind of mass, weight, roll size and power of motor you would need to do what you want. I am thinking 7 to 15 rpm for roll speed if you motorise em. Mine use a big motor, with an electric brake on it, and a gear reducer, then a chain drive up to the rolls. There is an intermediate chain gear on a spring loaded arm, to take up the slack when you adjust the rolls to different thicknesses of metal. |
| - ries - Thursday, 01/05/06 19:49:10 EST |
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ThomasP, I too live in a solar house. I built this one 20 years ago. Passive solar, super insulated. When I built it, many thought I was nuts, but I perservered. The DG has been cold natured since I met her, and she needs to be about 70F to keep moving, much like a reptile. ( I don't think she reads this page!) I would indeed do it again, as far as the super insulated. I would have to think hard about the solar, as in this area we have a lot less sun than you. As we are lazy we don't do anything to cover the windows at night, and we lose a far amount back out at night this way. We have cooling that is a function of insulation in the heat of the day, and the thermal mass soaking up any heat that sneaks in, and opening up and running a whole house fan at night to reject the heat back out in the cool of the night. When I was studying up prior to building I looked into the trenched in tubes for cooling air. In this area, due to the high humidity, a laser leveled fall in the tube, and smooth wall tube leading to a drain, is required to prevent condensate build up and the resultant possibility for mold and legionaires. From my study, I found that big tube, say 12" or better, in somewhat short runs of say 50', with slow velocity are what is needed to allow the air to give up its heat to the earth. |
| - ptree - Thursday, 01/05/06 19:59:45 EST |
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Quenchcrack, and Dave Broyer, Quench, Thanks for the data on the springs. I will try the routine you suggest and report back. I have about 300# of various sizes so far, and these are pulled from use in PM's and are not broken. Not to say not yet cracked, but they look good. Dave, these springs are also color coded and quite britely at that. |
| - ptree - Thursday, 01/05/06 20:58:43 EST |
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I received a question by email concerning the use of kiln shelving in forge building that involved a rather lengthy answer. I thought I'd post the answer here so that others might use the information also: Inswool™ or Kaowool™ or other fiber refractories are very susceptible to damage from molten flux. At forge-welding heats, one drop of borax will melt through an inch of fiber in a few seconds. Like hot water going through cotton candy. Soft insulating firebrick are better about flux than fiber, but will still be eaten rather quickly. ITC-100 is slightly more resistant to flux than soft firebrick is, but not a whole lot more so. Hard firebrick are much more resistant to flux, and coating them with ITC-100 makes them more heat-reflective, but no more resistant to flux than they are uncoated. Kiln shelf comes in a couple of different kinds, and is just what the name implies; it is used in pottery kilns to allow stacking a lot of pots to be fired. Since it has to support weight while it is at thigh temperatures, it is stronger than a firebrick would be of the same thickness. It is also more resistant to flux than firebrick. The most common kind of kiln shelf is made of mullite, a form of aluminum oxide. As a form of metallic oxide, it is capable of being reduced by the action of borax and other fluxes. After all, the purpose of any flux is to dissolve oxides, and aluminum oxide is just another oxide as far as flux is concerned. The other material for kiln shelves is silicon carbide. The silicon carbide kiln shelves are the strongest and the most flux-resistant material, and are also considerably more expensive. If using mullite kiln shelving for a forge floor, 1” thick is plenty and ¾” is adequate. If using silicon carbide, ½” is plenty strong enough, and will be expensive enough, too. Kiln shelves DO break in pottery use and in shipping, so you can sometimes find broken ones pretty cheaply by checking with local potters or pottery supply places. They’ll still probably be big enough to allow you to make a forge bottom out of a larger piece. I cut them with a diamond tile saw. They can also be scored and broken or cut with an abrasive blade in a circular saw. Any dry cutting creates dust that is hazardous, so wear a respirator. You can probably find a tile setter who would cut one for you cheap or for free if you take it to him already marked for cutting. Look in the Yellow Pages under Tile and Masonry contractors. I use kiln shelving for my forge bottoms to keep the flux from eating the Kaowool™ or Inswool™ refractory, and because it makes a rigid floor that things don’t move around on. I also line the sidewalls of my forges up a couple of inches with it, as this prevents most of the damage that errant pieces of iron would inflict on the Kaowool, even with the ITC-100 coating. I use the ITC-100 coating primarily for its heat reflectivity more than for its durability, though it does a good job of protecting the fiber and keeps small particles of fiber from becoming airborne. Airborne ceramic fiber is a known carcinogen. One aspect of using kiln shelf (or hard firebrick, for that matter), that is often not mentioned, is that it increases the amount of time it takes a forge to get up to working heat. The density of the material requires a goodly number of Btu’s to bring up to heat, and that takes some extra time. Once it is heated up however, it holds the heat so that when you put a piece of steel back into the forge for a subsequent heat, it heats up more quickly than it would in a forge with only fiber insulation. That thermal mass is a decided advantage when you want to anneal a piece of high-carbon steel by putting it in the forge, bringing it up to heat and then shutting down the forge with the steel inside. The forge will take much longer to cool down, thereby doing a much better job of annealing the steel. You’re right, the stupidest question is the one you don’t ask that gets you in trouble because you didn’t have the information that you could have had just for the asking. The above information should give you enough of a starting point to figure out what you want to do. Be safe, use appropriate safety gear and clothing and always ask when you don’t know, because some of this stuff really can be dangerous if approached carelessly. |
| vicopper - Thursday, 01/05/06 21:16:48 EST |
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Solar: The bits and pieces to make a solar home fully automatic without being custom engineered is the trick. Back in Mother Earth's hey-day they reported on a freon powered mechanism that would automaticly track the sun to aim solar panels or open and close covers as needed. No power or high tech required. The inventor had a patent on it. It would have run out by now unless he made a lot of patentable improvements. Super insulatiuon is one of those things that can be legislated as part of the building code. Currently you can build and SELL the most worthless energy inefficient homes imaginable. At one time there was a push to make 6" wall and 12" roof insulation a minimum. Yet homes are still being built with so little insulation that you can feel the heat radiating through the ceiling. Modular homes are worse using lumber LESS THAN nominal 2x4's (2.75" instead of 3.5") and have no attic space to temper the heat gain or loss through the critical roof. Back in the 70's one of our local banks put up a solar showplace as an office. In the 1980's they replaced with a glass and steel monstrosity. . . One of the passive heat sink systems that was being built was concrete walls sunk deep into the earth that extended to the roofline. These were insulated on the exterior of the house with foam then stuckoed. Insulating mass on the OUTSIDE is a key feature of passive systems. ANother idea was a thermal flywheel. . . Just a huge block of ice/water. It was used as a heat sink in the summer warming the tank of water then in the winter heat would be drawn off until it froze into a block of ice. The ice would be melted in the summer for the AC reversing the process. . . The energy absorbed then given off converting water to ice and back again is huge. Using that same latent heat energy over and over to maximum benifit. . There is a lot that can be done that is cost and energy effective today. It will be even more important in the future. |
| - guru - Thursday, 01/05/06 21:26:19 EST |
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Was watching "Lord of the Rings" last night and realized that Hobbits had nice solar/earth homes. . Scrap Stainless: Scrap is where you find it. To start with many scrap dealers are either ferrous or non-ferrous dealers. The non-ferrous folks also handle stainless so that is who you look for. In "junk" not scrap the most common stainless is used in kitchen and resturant equipment and food handling plants. Resturant equipment dealers often have masses of old junked stainless equipment. After that there is not much unless you live in a location that has large industry that uses a lot of stainless. Pump and valve manufacturers, chemical equipment manufacturers, nuclear parts manufacturers. . . |
| - guru - Thursday, 01/05/06 21:37:36 EST |
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Barry-- You perhaps posted here and in the Guru's Den without registering and entering a password. There is probably a valid reason for wanting me to register and give a password to enter yours and look around, but I fail to see why I should have to get myself on yet more mailing lists and spam lists and have something else to try to remember. I would suggest you lower the drawbridge. And I am a Balmer County boy, delighted to hear of anotherbusiness a-borning in my home town and another used tool source. |
| Miles Undercut - Thursday, 01/05/06 22:38:08 EST |
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I'm looking at getting into blacksmithing in my spare time. But first I would like to learn how to smelt the metals needed for the job before I start in on learning how to pound the stuff into objects. I'm really looking for a good place to start like that. I've searched the net and have never been able to find the site I once looked at. I would like a good resource if any of you have one. I'm sure I'll get a reply saying not to waste my time trying to make the bars but just go out and get scrap metal. But I really want to know how to start from scratch...or at least as close to it as feasable. Thankyou for replies. |
| Justin Flühmann - Thursday, 01/05/06 22:41:12 EST |
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Whole Earth, Solar Etc. About 20 something years ago when You could get a tax credit for installing solar water heating gear My dad did so. His boss was a dealer for Heliotherm and we got a "Good Deal" on the gear. It worked and is still working in spite of the leaking 80 gallon stone lined insulated heat exchanger tank in the attic. Strangely enough the tank started leaking a few years ago when oil prices started to rise. Everybody else I know that put a system in in that era had decomisioned it due to problems before oil started to get expensive. I don't know if it ever payed for itself or not, the woodburning setup we used untill 2000 heated domestic water as well as the house, but MOM put Her foot down about the dust from the ash, saying it set houskeeping back 50 years. Alas We stop burning wood the same year oil prices start to rise and the solar tank starts to leak. We went from using about 250 gallons of oil a year to 1000 when We stopped burning wood, not sure what will happen if I decomission the solar. I think My dad told Me he used 1200 gallons per year when He used no significant alternate methods. I alllso have a "Last Whole earth Catalog" I only got it recently, I was about 12 years old when it came out and wasn't aware of it then. Reading it now gives a "Hippies eye view of the world" particularly Devine Rights road trip. I too thought Mother earth news was a Rodale publication, maybee it was at one time. A co worker of Mine built a fuel alchoal still, had a lot of trouble geting high enough proof to run in an engine, not sure He ever really did. The thing was scrapped when He moved in '91. |
| Dave Boyer - Thursday, 01/05/06 23:44:08 EST |
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Where can I get information on the value of what I believe to be a Canedy-Otto forge with hand crank blower? |
| Stacie - Friday, 01/06/06 01:46:24 EST |
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Canedy-Otto forge, Stacie, Its hard to place value on these things, Its value is whatever you CAN get. Not knowing what style Canedy-Otto you have does not help either. You coul |