| WELCOME to the anvilfire Guru's Den - V. 3.0 |
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THIS is a forum for questions and answers about blacksmithing and general metalworking. Ask the Guru any reasonable question and he or one of his helpers will answer your question, find someone that can, OR research the question for you. This is an archive of posts from January 16 - 23, 2006 on the Guru's Den |
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Happy New Year ALL. |
| - guru - Sunday, 01/01/06 02:49:12 EST |
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I've just started to get interested in smithing and was wondering how a medevil sheild was made and what type of metals and markings were used on them |
| Jesse Fulgium - Monday, 01/16/06 01:19:46 EST |
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AWS certification just means you passed a test administered by an American Welding Society certified welder. who himself may have passed his test years ago. It is not like getting your board certification in neurosurgery or your pilot's license. Go to another job and you'll have to pass another test, their test this time. But it does mean you passed somebody's test, which tells a prospective employer something. |
| Miles Undercut - Monday, 01/16/06 01:26:55 EST |
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On small anvils: Last year a 15-lb PW went for about $1,500. A very small Kohlswa (if I recall correctly) went for about $1,200. Wouldn't surprise me if the 10-lb H-B goes well above $1,000. |
| Ken Scharabok - Monday, 01/16/06 01:48:13 EST |
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Midevial shields, All I know of the round nordic style are mostly made of wood, Iron would be too precious and a lot of work to hammer into enough sheets to make a shield and without being too heavy. Of course, there maybe be iron fittings and reinforcements. Some may have an iron banded perimeter. But sometimes not, An iron band may be only a reinforcement inboard of the edge leaving the perimeter all wooden. This idea is claimed an attackers sword may get caught stuck briefly into the edge of the wood giving the defender opportunity to strike back the now weapon disabled attacker. |
| - John - Monday, 01/16/06 11:42:29 EST |
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Hey there, What do you think a 177lb Peter Wright( I think 1885-1910) is worth? It has a slight compresion in the it from use, but other wise its still a good old anvil. |
| Kevin - Monday, 01/16/06 12:10:53 EST |
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Kevin: Value is rather subjective. Really it is worth what you are willing to pay for it. If the top is in good condition, and you can pick it up, I would ballpark it at $2.00 - $3.00 Lb. If you have to pay shipping then that is another matter. I suspect what you call a compression is what is termed a saddle. The wrought iron under the middle of the anvil was compressed from heavy pounding. As Guru points out, not necessarily bad as it can be used for straightening. |
| Ken Scharabok - Monday, 01/16/06 12:54:47 EST |
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Jesse; you are talking about nearly 1000 years and a wide range of cultures and styles---some all wood, some all wrought iron can you narrow the question down to something a bit more managable than "tell me about every car ever made and how it was made?---in a dozen lines on a web forum..." You may also want to visit armourarchive.org a seried of web forums dedicated to armour and ask your question in the historical research forum. Suitably narrowed down of course! Thomas |
| Thomas Powers - Monday, 01/16/06 13:39:02 EST |
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Ontario Artist Blacksmith Association - a more up to date link is given below. Darrell Markewitz (Wareham Forge)is the web page designer. Cold North of the Lake (Ontario.) Don http://ontarioblacksmiths.ca/ |
| Don - Monday, 01/16/06 15:28:16 EST |
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Oxygen lance: A piece of iron (wrought) pipe connected to a pressurized pure oxygen source. Heat end of pipe until yellow, turn on oxygen and watch it burn! The flaming iron and heated oxygen is directed at something huge and usualy iron including things that do not normally torch cut like cast iron. The heat from the lance starts the cast iron and the pure oxygen blows it out of the way. Primitive, cheap (except for the oxygen), dirty and dangerous. |
| - guru - Monday, 01/16/06 16:00:17 EST |
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hi.i have some very old gates and have beem told that they were made by a blacksmith many years ago.they are so heavey we can hardly lift them and there is a stamp which looks like it says THERTON and it has a crown next to it,any information would be greatfull |
| hayley hirst - Monday, 01/16/06 17:36:38 EST |
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I made a tomahawk today out of mild steel. Now I just have to make one out of HC and make the eye bigger. What steel will be good for a tomahawk. For me it needs to be relatively easy to heat treat (none of that fancy stuff)and it needs to be relatively easy to forge weld. Having a large forging temperature range would be nice too. 4140 is easy for me to get. Does it meet these requirements? |
| Tyler Murch - Monday, 01/16/06 18:19:55 EST |
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Ken if the anvil sells for that much it would not surprise me either. Ken it would be a handy size for demos...just bring along a 150 lb stand...BOG. |
| Burnt Forge - Monday, 01/16/06 19:37:11 EST |
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Kalen: A shop can be the safest place in the school, but it is potentially very dangerous. I am a retired Chemistry Teacher and the same can be said of the chem lab. Statisticaly, both school shops and labs are safer than the halls and stairwells. This is because most of the time the science and shop teachers put safety first and constantly work on it. I know that the safety program is not always fully supported by the administration, because they don't understand the whole problem. Many schools have just closed their shops. I felt I could not safely supervise more than 24 kids in the chemistry lab. They knew it, but they gave me 28. I quit doing labs. They didn't furnish safety glasses. I got parents to donate them, same for fire extinguishers, and no lab work was done until they were supplied. Your shop teacher should have had things better under control, but he may have had circumstances we are not aware of. He will never forget this day, and will study it over and over again to make things safer. |
| - John Odom - Monday, 01/16/06 20:35:51 EST |
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Kalen: Forget the shop classes, forget science class. CONCENTRATE on ENGLISH class. If you can not communicate, you aren't going anywhere. |
| Bob H - Monday, 01/16/06 21:44:29 EST |
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Hayley; what continent are you on? First thing when trying to identify something is to start with the possible locals and work your way out. As we have folks who post here from Europe, Africa, Asia, South America, Australia and a bunch of "middles" it makes it very hard to know where you are at. I'm in central NM, USA and am not familiar with that touchmark. Thomas |
| Thomas P - Monday, 01/16/06 21:45:29 EST |
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Kalen, Kindly clean up your language on this forum, please. That means leaving out curse words, as well as defamatory racial and ethnic remarks. Your previous post contained both, and a repeat will not be tolerated. Your shop fable was truly unbelievable. Having heard that one, I doubt very much if we need to hear any other stories of your school. You would do well to heed Mr. H's suggestion that you concentrate on English; the best storytellers are those who convey ideas clearly through the careful use of proper English, both spelling and sentence structure. |
| vicopper - Monday, 01/16/06 22:19:51 EST |
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I do agree with vicopper that we should be careful not to use bad language or any ethnic insinuations. Having dealt with gangs many times you can disquish them by race. I have an African American Studies Degree according to an honor society. I think they goofed(opps slang) since I studied rand ethnicity. BTW...My favorit Blacksmithsmith in the work is Philip Simmons. I am part Native American myself. Don' use the I workd because it is the same as using the N word. Though folks in the US seem to like using the I word. Maybe they should study the spoken language and ethnicity of my people. |
| Burnt Forge - Monday, 01/16/06 22:44:55 EST |
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Hi Tyler You may very well be correct. I use to educate all levels of young adults. Since this forum is two dimensional I just don't know his intent for sure. Young folks rebel because of the very attitude that was displayed. We need to leed by example. If he is spinning a yarn he will get bored with not getting a reaction from us. Let his parents and teachers work on his language use. I am just giving him the benefit of doubt. |
| Burnt Forge - Monday, 01/16/06 22:51:29 EST |
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Anyway all in fun from me. Now lets get down with some iron banging. Did any Blacksmith organizations purchase any of the Sorber collection? Does anyone know? I can't seem to get an answer from anywhere. Other than what the stuff sold for and the well know antique dealers that purchased some. |
| Burnt Forge - Monday, 01/16/06 22:56:16 EST |
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Gents, many heartfelt thanks for all your help. Marking knife turned out nicely. |
| Joe G - Monday, 01/16/06 23:23:28 EST |
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anybody know how to contact Sid Suedemier need some little giant parts thanks bb |
| bruce - Tuesday, 01/17/06 00:00:24 EST |
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Suedmeier: Ph 402-873-6603 website www.littlegianthammer.com e-contact sid@littlegianthammer.com |
| Frank Turley - Tuesday, 01/17/06 00:52:16 EST |
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Guru and friends I need you help and guidance or trying to find out about a smithing project. It is called a tommy sticker better known as a miners candel holder. I have been on the net for weeks trying to get some know how on how many of these darn near works of art were made. some look like they were smith out of one peace of metal. Any leads or how to info on this project. would be great. Thanks much. Danny |
| Danny young - Tuesday, 01/17/06 01:00:24 EST |
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Danny Young: In the upper right section of this page you'll se a little window. Key on it and scroll down to "iForge-How-to". When you get there scroll down to demo #108, and you'll see one version of what you're after, AND the directions for making it. The next thing you do is consider becoming a member of this fine group, Cyber Smiths International, so you can learn lotsa stuff about pounding iron. Welcome! |
| 3dogs - Tuesday, 01/17/06 03:34:21 EST |
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Tyler Murch: 4140 has just barely enough carbon to be a decient tomahawk, I don't know the HT or forging temps since I've never used it. I can reccomend 5160 as a good alternative that I know is easy enough to forge and HT. Or, if you have forgewelding capabilities, use the mild steel and just "steel the edge" meaning weld in a bit at the end for the edge, this method works best for a wrapped style as opposed to a drifted hole style though you can do it on either. |
| AwP - Tuesday, 01/17/06 07:14:28 EST |
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Kalen, and others: Language IS important. Grammar is important. If two people, seemingly otherwise equally qualified, come applying for a job, the one with the best grammar wins. I am often disgusted with the poor grammar of out newspaper writers/editors and also of the TV newscasters. Even some of the English teachers in our schools have never had a real course in grammar. We should avoid language we know is offensive to our listeners, whether it be racial, sexual or profane. I think poor grammar is indicative of sloppy, careless thought processes which translate to simmilar habits in work, and lack of safety on the job. I recognize that this medium is not reviewed or edited and does not represent the best language each of us is capable of. This is one of my pet peeves, and I'll get off the soap box now. Lets talk about blacksmithing. |
| - John Odom - Tuesday, 01/17/06 08:42:48 EST |
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You know..... I agree with the Johns last statement. I try to learn what I can just from listening to you guys, and if your bickering with eachother I don't learn anything. So for the sake of the children, drop the subject. :-) Farriers and blacksmithing. Should I work for a ferrier for a while to learn aobut smithing? |
| newbie in NW ILL - Tuesday, 01/17/06 09:43:46 EST |
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Will's anvil on ebay. #6245630570 newbie...we are not bickering. You may benefit from learning some basic forging techniques from a farrier. If you have an opportunity I would go for it. Blacksmithing and Farrier work are two different things though. BTW...When you earn your blacksmithing strips you can correct us. :) |
| Burnt Forge - Tuesday, 01/17/06 10:20:26 EST |
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Anyone have any plans on how to make a bender? I've made a crude one from a short length of square stock with two 3/8" steel rods welded side by side. The piece holds in the vise and I have limited success in making spirals. Any advise? |
| - Nippulini - Tuesday, 01/17/06 11:11:25 EST |
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BOG Nippulini. I really don't know of any plans and have searched. I have a wheel bender. I will take some photos for you if you like. It should be pretty straight forward to copy the design and make some modifications. I have to go out and photo a hammer for a fella. i could do this at the same time. Send me your email and a note if you desire this. |
| Burnt Forge - Tuesday, 01/17/06 11:40:02 EST |
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Newbie in NW ILL, There are cold horseshoers and hot horseshoers. The cold shoers buy a large inventory of manufactured shoes, beat on them cold until they get a fit, and nail on. Therefore, working with a cold shoer will not teach you much about blacksmith work at all. In working with a hot shoer, you will learn some forging techniques, but it will be limited to shaping and/or making of horseshoes. You would be expected to do some simple tool dressing, as with pritchels. If you're a stranger to horses, there is a GREAT DEAL to learn about their behavior and care. This opens the door only a crack to the world of blacksmithing. Nippulini, The small book, "The Blacksmith's Craft" shows how to make a scroll forming tool. The catch is, you need to make a good looking spiral (scroll) freehand; then, bend your work around it. The method is also shown in "The Artist Blacksmith" by Peter Parkinson, pp. 131-132. Also, see #31 Spiral demo on this site, iForge - How-to. |
| Frank Turley - Tuesday, 01/17/06 11:54:19 EST |
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TGN; Benders are one of the most improvised tools we use. they can range from a simple "F" shaped bending fork, used in conjunction with a stout "U" shaped piece, which is clamped in a vise. Or, you could build yourself something similar to a Hossfeld, as seen at http://www.kinzers.com/don/MachineTools/bender/ Or, root around in the Harbor Freight catalog. The possibilities are endless. |
| - Laughingdog Macdonald - Tuesday, 01/17/06 11:58:47 EST |
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Frank- I work on White Pines Ranch in IL (fairly famous from what I understand so maybe you've heard of it) We have 70 odd horses we have to take care of. I've been working there for about 5 years. So yeah I know horses. |
| newbie in NW ILL - Tuesday, 01/17/06 13:05:26 EST |
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OXYGEN LANCES Hi T. Gold. I have never tried these tools out, but I have heard from several people who have used them. One was a white-hat locksmith who specialized in opening safes. He said they were useless for this purpose, despite the movie "Thief", since they only were good for piercing holes. Obviously, he was referring to the self-contained type which contained their own oxidizer. I seem to recall that Ernie (of anvil-making fame) has had some experience with an oxygen lance. It was a good experience. The only thing that I really remember is that a steel tube will not work well. You have to stuff some steel wire down the center to slow down the oxygen flow a bit. It is lit by striking an arc between the lance and the target. It is extinguished by just turning off the oxygen. These things work by spraying oxygen. Without the high pressure (high consumption) flow, they will just go out. I have experimented with hot steel and oxygen. This can cause an uncontrollable fire which can burn you. Use appropriate protection! |
| EricC - Tuesday, 01/17/06 14:07:02 EST |
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Nippulini-- Intermediate Technology (see google) puts out a booklet with detailed instructions for making a Hossfeld-type bender. Seems to me I have seen one offered by Lindsay Books, too. If it's just scrolls you need it for, old timers used various diameters of pipe, cut a slot down from the end of each to hold the stock, heated the material and bent to suit the needs of the moment. |
| Miles Undercut - Tuesday, 01/17/06 14:27:41 EST |
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Hello all... happy new year... I am looking for a brake that will bend 1/8th" [11ga] or as close as possible in 20" lenghts. is there such a beast? i have been doing some searching on line and found everything from Harbor Freight and my local Tractor Supply to How-to make-your-own. for example.. the harbor freight machine built by central mach. says it can do up to 12ga at 36" wide... and only $190. any suggestions? thanks... michael |
| Michael - Tuesday, 01/17/06 14:27:55 EST |
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I posted a comment about some old forges that I came across have no idea who made them or anything like that, was curious if anyone could help me if I posted pictures of them, or if posting pictures would even help. Thanks |
| Rou - Tuesday, 01/17/06 14:31:15 EST |
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TGN, Somewhere on the 'net there is a set of plans to build a Hossfeld-clone bender. The outfit with the plans was connected with an organization that went to underdeveloped nations/places and made the benders to make wheelchairs for those who needed them. A Google search should turn them up. Once you build the bender, then there is a two-year learning curve to be able to do almost anything with it. Ries Niemi, PNW blacksmith/sculptor uses one to great advantage and can tell you more accurately what the *real* learning curve is. |
| vicopper - Tuesday, 01/17/06 14:33:29 EST |
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What this page is for: THIS is a forum for questions and answers about blacksmithing and general metalworking. Ask the Guru any reasonable question and he or one of his helpers will answer your question, find someone that can, OR research the question for you. Please read the Guidelines before posting a question. |
| Ralph - Tuesday, 01/17/06 14:34:57 EST |
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Rou: Looks like you got lost in the shuffle of other stuff that's been flying around this weekend. Most old forges will not have a manufacturer's name on them, unless it's on the blower. It really doesn't matter as long as they work. (grin!) All the old makers are out of business now anyway. A thorough description of them would help if you want general hints and such, i.e. are they cast iron, do they have deep firepots or are they shallow rivet forges, do they have blowers at all, and if so are they hand-crank or lever-operated, or even foot-pedal double-action bellows, and that sort of thing. Pictures would probably help, but we don't have a picture page on this forum. There is a yahoo photo page, but I don't yahoo and as such can't look at 'em anyway. |
| Alan-L - Tuesday, 01/17/06 14:56:58 EST |
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Tyler, I make lots of tomahawks out of mild steel or wrought iron with high carbon steel inserted bits. I like 5160 and 1095 for the bit inserts. The two-piece construction is nice because you don't have to worry about babying the high-carbon stuff until after you have it welded in. If you're doing a punched eye out of big stock, 4140 will be fine. Most of the factory-made hawks these days are investment-cast 4140, as it's a very tough steel and hardens just enough to hold an edge. I've never tried to weld it, so I can't help you there. |
| Alan-L - Tuesday, 01/17/06 15:01:54 EST |
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Go back to 11:58:47 for the hossfeld bender clone website. |
| 3dogs - Tuesday, 01/17/06 15:09:53 EST |
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Subject Matter: SEE Ralph's note above. This is a forum for blacksmithing questions and answers. Language: Folks that use inappropriate language for use in public will be asked to leave and NEVER return. We do not have time for you especially if you do not give us respect and consideration we ask for and deserve. Kalen: You need to go sit down and spend some time with some adults, talk about serious subjects like how to make a good impression and get along in life. This forum is not your school playground. We are not here to be your shrink. I and many others have gotten very tired of your dribble. DO NOT RESPOND. It costs me time and effort deleting your dribble and I DO NOT have any more time to waste on you. Spelling and Punctuation: I cannot gripe on this too much as my spelling has been ocassionaly termed "creative". However, much of what I see here is just not trying. Capitalization rules in other languages are different but in English the basic rules are 1) Always capitalize the first word of a sentence, 2) Always capitalize proper names, places and that includes *I*. ALL CAPS is considered yelling on the internet and is worse than no punctuation. If you want an answer to a question it helps to ask it using your best spelling and punctuation. Lack of punctuation on the Internet is just plain laziness. If you don't care then why should we care to answer a careless question. If we answer a question and you do not like the answer don't gripe about it. Everything you want is not free nor is it in your back yard. This is real, life is tough. |
| - guru - Tuesday, 01/17/06 15:49:49 EST |
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Sorber Collection: After making some inquiries I found out no one from the metal museum or blacksmith realm was able to purchase part of this collection. Many items were sold in large groups. The items were going for more than the funds collected by the metal museum and ABANA. They were unable to get into the action. Walley is putting great efforts into other avenues of using the funds to acquire some pieces of this collection from the dealers who purchased many in large quanities. The collection sold for over $711,000. The prices of these forged items just went out of site. Individual basic pieces sold for thousands. This item was not part of the sorber collection, but sold at the beginning of this January 06 for over 42,000. It is the wrought iron door escutcheon found on the front cover of the Antique Iron, English and American 15th Century through 1850. By Schiffer. Some of this info was lost in the deletion of earlier posts by accident. Ralph I agree with you brother!! I have personally found the bookman I used in college made by Franklin very helpful for proper spelling in this forum. I also find the English Desk Reference: "Everything You Need To Know About English" very helpful in writting better about blacksmith related topics. If this helped me I thought others may find it helpful. I still make lots of errors. |
| Burnt Forge - Tuesday, 01/17/06 16:46:07 EST |
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Panel lifting Clamp: I am looking to purchase a panel lifting clamp, 0-1" grip, less than 2000 lbs. capacity, with the ability to lift from horizontal to vertical and to hold the panel vertical. Any recommendations? Thanks Bart |
| blackbart - Tuesday, 01/17/06 18:15:45 EST |
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Ive got 2 Questions, I just bought a 50lb little gaint when I go to mounting it what do the specs need to be when it comes to pouring the foundation? Next Q? why cant I forge weld stainless steel to a tool steel? Thanks for the help. Charles |
| Charles Cooper - Tuesday, 01/17/06 18:27:07 EST |
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On asking questions: When you ask us a question, you ask us to spend our time helping you. As time is the *only* thing we are given on this earth asking us to spend it on your question is a serious thing! If you are not paying us then you should be trying to make our job as easy as possible. Think through your question; try to phrase it as if you were asking someone who had no clue about what you are asking about. You know all the details, don't make us try to guess them! Will your location make a difference to the answer? Since smithing stuff is expensive to ship any question about "where do I find/get/buy X" should include where you are at. If it is to do with something historical, narrowing down the time and place will help a lot; personally to me everything after 1600 is "recent" so be careful with terms like "old" or "traditional". Some of us are more used to the hammer than the keyboard and this is a forum and so questions that take a lot of replying to may not get the attention they deserve. Breaking them down into specific chunks and posting them seperately will help. Please forgive us our typos as we should forgive people who typo against us. It is suggested you re-read your post *slowly* before you hit the post button and make corrections as needed. Telling us you are not willing to take the time to read your answer on the forum does not encourage us to spend our time writing an answer that only you will see. Telling us that you are not willing to research a question in print sources we may suggest generally indicates that it's not important enough to warrent *our* digging into those same books and spoon feeding the information to you. A considerate person will check that their questions are not already covered in any of the FAQ's or subsidiary pages. The search function in the archives can provide a wealth of information. If you decide you don't like the flavour of this site; please feel free to not read it---don't waste your time on us posting a lot of crud that Jock will just delete anyway, we're not worth it... If your ego can't accept the hurly burly of the net the quiet of the library still is generally available. Smiths often have a rather earthy sense of humour that we generally try to ride herd on as this site is a resource used by folks under the age of adulthood. If people slip up; try to forgive and ignore them. Don't Feed Trolls! Thomas |
| Thomas P - Tuesday, 01/17/06 18:29:55 EST |
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blackbart-- get a forged, not cast, C-clamp with a specially-cupped end on the screw made expressly for this purpose. MSC has them, so do other suppliers. They are load-rated for lifting, have a square end on the screw to take a wrench, cost mucho. |
| Miles Undercut - Tuesday, 01/17/06 19:11:09 EST |
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Charles Cooper-- the Little Giant people recommended a humongous solid mass foundation, some four or five feet deep, reinforced concrete, with humongous anchoring bolts going down into it. I have the original factory specs here somewhere and if you really want them, will dig them out. Otherwise, you can do what the late, great Alexander Weygers did, and many others have done, and which I recommend, which to pour a raised concrete pad 8-inches or so high and set the hammer on that. I made a raft out of RR ties through-bolted together for my 50-pounder, and it is not adequate-- hammer rocks, even despite lots of stickout to the sides of the footprint, loses a lot of the force of the blow that it would have with the proper foundation. Someday.... Hey, while the hammer is free, DO NOT FORGET to make a plywood template from the bolt holes for setting your anchor bolts. |
| Miles Undercut - Tuesday, 01/17/06 19:20:53 EST |
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Charles Cooper-- Well, I had to go check and found I was wrong again! (That makes 4,326 times just this year so far, alas.) The foundation just seemed that big in my haha mind's eye. The Little Giant people said in their specs, as reproduced in Richard R. Kern's book, The Little Giant Powerhammer, to make the foundation a mere 33 inches wide, 49 inches long, and only 26 inches deep. They wanted you to use 5/8-inch bolts 23 inches long, coming up through steel plates that are set up inside the foundation, high enough to reach the top of the hammer's foot. These bolts are to go through 1 1/4-inch pipe the last 6 inches before they get to the top of the foundation. They wanted a cork or rubber shim pad under the hammer 1/4- or 3/8-inch thick. This can be made from old belting, they say. |
| Miles Undercut - Tuesday, 01/17/06 19:39:19 EST |
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How can I forge drills that will cut mild steel, brass etc? I have made drills from round stock that drill wood just fine. I flatten a portion, make a long tapered tip, file a leading edge, harden, temper, it drills wood. What sort of end shape should be made so it will cut metal? A shallow V? Should the sides of the drill also have a leading edge to sort of ream the hole, or be made slightly smaller to clear well? I assume that vintage drills (1700's) had no twist but I could twist also if that's preferred. I am interested in drilling small holes in mild steel that will then be tapped- say 8-32, 10-32, etc (longrifle gunlocks, trigger plates, etc.) |
| Rich Pierce - Tuesday, 01/17/06 19:47:20 EST |
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Panel lifting Clamp: Thanks Miles. Why would one purchase the forged C-clamp style instead of the cam locking style? Both are expensive, and the cam style clamp seems easier to use. I've looked at both in the McMaster-Carr catalog pages 1318 and 1319. Thanks again Bart |
| blackbart - Tuesday, 01/17/06 19:54:49 EST |
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Rich Pierce, There is not much information on the making of drills, since most folks buy them ready made. I have found one book that addresses the subject. The book is a reprint of two old ones, now titled, "American Blacksmithing and The 20th Century Toolsmith and Steelworker" by Holstrom and Holford, Pages 67 through, 71. Holford shows a "flat drill" with the shallow vee that you mentioned and also a twist drill, the latter made of round stock flattened a little and then twisted. |
| Frank Turley - Tuesday, 01/17/06 21:34:33 EST |
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Charles Cooper, on why you may not be able to weld stainless to tool steel: You can, if you use a very agressive flux and a totally neutral atmosphere. You're probably not going to do it in a coal forge, though. (sad grin) If you do it inside a sealed container, sometimes it works. The problem is chromium oxides. They don't dissolve with any flux less than one that contains flourine, which is nasty, nasty stuff that will liquify your lungs and cause your bones to crumble should you breathe the fumes. If the oxides are present, you won't be able to get a good weld. You may have noticed there's not much of this type of welded material available. Well, this is the reason. Should you want to try it anyway, I have heard (not tried, note!) that the 400 series works better than the 300 series. |
| Alan-L - Tuesday, 01/17/06 21:42:28 EST |
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Panel lifting clamps. Having been around the use of both styles of lifting panels, that is cam and C clamps I would like to offer the following; The cam lock is really ONLY good to lift panels. The C clamp can be used for many purposes. NEVER use a cam lock without the locking pin inserted, as they can and do drop panels as they are landed back down. Cam lock teeth wear out and then are very dangerous. C clamps can be tightrnrd with a wrench very positivly. I have never seen a well applied C clamp drop a plate. I have seen several plates dropped from a cam clamp, and cleaned up the biohazards from another accident. |
| - ptree - Tuesday, 01/17/06 22:12:35 EST |
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ptree-- write on! Bart-- as my foreman told me years ago, "Never get under a piece of steel! Get a laborer to do it!" |
| Miles Undercut - Tuesday, 01/17/06 22:53:29 EST |
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Ritch Pierce: If You make the drillbits, You will need to but a slight back taper on them. Commercial twist drills even have the backtaper. As well as removal of chips the twist on a twist drill gives positive rake to the cutting edge. A flat bit will have no rake and not cut as easily in most metals as a twist drill. Large spade bits have positive rake ground into them, but it would be dificult to do on bits the size You are talking about. |
| Dave Boyer - Tuesday, 01/17/06 23:08:46 EST |
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Rich For prime efficiency, use cobalt drill bitz. I know they aren't hand made but, I was able to cut through 1/4 inch steel in about 20 seconds. Its good stuff. |
| newbie in NW ILL - Wednesday, 01/18/06 07:33:26 EST |
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Frank, Dave and Newbie, thanks for the advice on drills. By "back taper" I assume you mean I have to file or grind the tip so that there is a leading, cutting edge. Else the toll would just "rub". Now I see what you mean about a twist drill having the positive rake. It "aims into" the cut. I'll try out these ideas and see if I can fashion a drill that will drill mild steel. I am leaning toward this sequence: 1) Flatten round or square stock for 1-3" or so depending on intended drill length and diamater 2) Size it and true it by filing and just square the end for now. Put some back taper on the edges, maybe 5-10 degrees 3) put in the twist IF I am working with a diameter of at least 5/32 (don't think I can do it on smaller stock) 4) Form the cutting edge with the shallow V and about 15 degrees of back taper and sharpen it 5) Harden the whole drill 6)Temper the shaft to spring temper and the tip to near-purple. 7) Give it a whirl! |
| Rich Pierce - Wednesday, 01/18/06 08:37:37 EST |
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Two whimiscal shop signs: Blacksmith Tool Steel Identificatino Chart RTS - Rear truck spring CTB - Chrysler torsion bar UTA - Unknown truck axle OJGH - Old jackhammer bit OJYS - Old junk yard steel FOP - Found on pile SOCS - Straightened out coil spring INHWBPH - I'm not sure (what it is) but it's pretty hard YGGM - Youa-guessa - gooda - mine (Italian tool steel) Blacksmith Guarantee: This work is fully guaranteed: - I guarantee that I am selling this too cheap. - I guarantee it won't be ready when you ordered it. - I guarantee if it is sharp, it will get dull. - I guarantee if you abuse it, it will bend or break. - I guarantee it will rust. If it does not, bring it back. I will make you one that will. |
| Ken Scharabok - Wednesday, 01/18/06 09:44:06 EST |
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I like that post, Ken. |
| - John Odom - Wednesday, 01/18/06 10:20:25 EST |
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I'm 53 years old and a farmer. I've been to a meeting with a local blacksmith club and want to get my own forge for my farm shop. My first challange is finding a forge. I've decided that I dont want a small portable forge but I have a question about the propane forges I see advertised. Is there an advantage to a coal forge over those? |
| Jim Facemire - Wednesday, 01/18/06 11:07:22 EST |
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Does any one know of a blacksmith club near Kansas city, MO ? i've not found any yet and thought I ask .... |
| Deuce - Wednesday, 01/18/06 11:23:17 EST |
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Jim: Coal versus propane depends on your needs. And avalability. Can you get enough good coal, and can you burn it in your neighborhood without upsetting neighbors? I use coal mostly, but have also built my own propane forge. I like coal more. But the propane forge is great for doing several items at once, or if I need a longer heat. I have built three coal forges. My big one uses a commercial fire pot. I've used a break drum for the other two. But we lined the inside of the break drum with a furnace or refractory cement, making a more traditional cone shape. That allows the fuel to funnel down more efficiently. And I have one old portable coal forge. They all work, but it depends on what you like and what you need. |
| Bob H - Wednesday, 01/18/06 12:06:14 EST |
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Hand Made Drill Bits: The infinitely most efficient and most durable twist drill bits are strictly a modern machine product. The "twist" is not twisted at all but cut on a special milling machine with a rotary chuck geared to the horizontal feed. High quality bits have a relief machined along the twist and a taper to thin the web near the point. Then the size is stanped into the shank. After machining the High Speed Steel is very carefully heat treated to its absolute maximimum performance condition. Then, the point is ground in special drill bit grinders that are adjusted specificaly for each size bit so the geometry is perfect. Last a hard rust resistant black oxide coating is applied. Some bits have a TiN (Titainium Nitride) coating vapor deposited to give the bit slightly better wear resistance and lubricity. However, this is also done on cheap hardware store bits of poor quality to make them look pretty. The coating is worthless if the undelying bit is sub standard. It only adds a little better performance to the best products. Hand Made Bits: For wood working the smith may make twist bits. It is not difficult but takes practice. For metal work hand made bits have a reduced shank so that it does not rub the work and the larger end is filed to shape, then hardened and then stoned to the final edge. These are rather ugly things and without the "twist" of modern bits they do not eject chips from deep holes. For large bits the cutting end was steel and the shank wrought iron. For chucking both metal and wood working bits had tapered square shanks that fit into a soft lead socket. Before there were twist bits there were straight fluted bits that helped eject chips. This eventualy developed into the twist drill bit. Flat bits are still used for very large holes in some materials. These often have a flat HSS cutter that bolts to a special shank. |
| - guru - Wednesday, 01/18/06 12:26:19 EST |
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Coal vs. Gas: Jim, as Bob noted there are pros and cons. Gas is quicker, cleaner and very convienient. Coal is hotter and more flexible. You can have a large OR a small fire in any given solid fuel forge but a gas forge is whatever size it is. This can result in a gas forge being inefficient. Your gas forge needs to be scaled to the size work you expect to do. Any given gas forge uses the same amount of fuel for any size work put into it. I like gas because in my old age I have gotten lazy. No coal to shovel, fire to maintain, ashes to haul out. However, I still enjoy working in a coal forge due to the hotter more concentrated heat. Most professionals have both (IF they can use coal). |
| - guru - Wednesday, 01/18/06 12:32:23 EST |
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Jim they both have their advantages and disadvantages---what do you plan to use it for? Coal forges are dirt cheap to build---a hole in the ground worked for the first thousand years of the iron age! They are cheap to run and are great for localized heats. In general most coal forges will forge weld. They are harder to learn to start and run and will burn up your work if you are careless. You can burn charcoal in most coal forges though some tweaking is suggested. Gas forges are a bit more picky to build, are great for longer heats, easy to start. Don't expect a propane forge to forge weld unless it is specifically designed and tweaked for it. You can't burn up your work in a propane forge though I have seen someone melt their piece into a puddle in one--Hi Patrick!---you can get heavy oxidization unless your burner is tuneable. Drill Bits: IIRC "Practical Blacksmithing", Richardson editor has quite a bit on forging your own simple drillbits for mild and non-ferrous metals. Note these were used with hand powered drills---and there are several designs to build your own drill as well. It is a collection of articles sent in to a blacksmithing journal back in the late 1880's and early 1890's and is interesting as a "period piece". In general I did not get much out of it until I started researching "historical" blacksmithing as many of the tasks they cover just are not part of the modern smith's world anymore. Thomas |
| Thomas P - Wednesday, 01/18/06 12:44:08 EST |
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ptree---miles So it will be the screw "C" clamp style then. Thanks for the clarification...I definitely will not get under any load where failure of the lift can cause bodily harm, I'd hate to become a "biohazard". I also plan to buy two of the clamps to reduce the possibility of catastrophic failure, along with a sling. Thanks again for the info. Bart |
| blackbart - Wednesday, 01/18/06 13:14:39 EST |
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how best do i get that nice pro looking,black finish on my iron? or what other finishes are there. Is there some prep needed to get even colour? And , i read somewhere about some acid, it said, "paint it on till the iron goes copper coloured then nuetrilise". can anyone ellaborate? |
| grimme - Wednesday, 01/18/06 16:10:10 EST |
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Ellen - Wed 18 Jan 2006 15:18:02 #0 Bottom Swage Question I am wondering what the best way is to make a bottom swage is. I would like to make one about 2" round, and about 3" wide. Only way I can think of is to cut as much metal as I can out of a block of mild steel with my torch, then take an angle grinder to it, and when it is good enough, weld a 1" shank on it. If anyone has made one of these or has any ideas (that don't involve a lathe, milling machine or power hammer) I would appreciate your input. Thanks much! |
| Ellen - Wednesday, 01/18/06 16:21:30 EST |
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Ellen, Split a pc of 2"dia sch 80 or heavier pipe and weld to a flat plate, then weld a hardy shank on it. |
| Ron Childers - Wednesday, 01/18/06 17:24:16 EST |
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Newbi in NW IL Join the Illinois Valley Blacksmith Association (IVBA). We have 420+ members and hold numerous events about the state. We delight in teaching everyone who shows about the craft. $15. a year gets it all. If you join soon you'll get the member directory. Third Sat. every month our shop at Sugar Grove is open. We have several beginers every month. May be a little far for you. First exit S. of Bloomington on 55. WWW.illinoisblacksmith.org John Smmons has a shop at Bishop Hills (tourist trap,the only good thing there) open sometimes on weekends. |
| Steve Paullin - Wednesday, 01/18/06 18:39:32 EST |
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Ellen, Without a powerhammer, your method is about all I can think of, unless you have a couple of friends who like to swing sledges. You could cut a piece of sch 80 pipe, like Ron suggested, if you do a lot of welding to fill in under the sides pretty much. If you know someone with a hefty geared-head drill press, just bore a 2" hole in a block, slice in half, weld on two shanks and have two swages. Or make one piece into a top swage to match. If you just want the swage to turn rasps into rattlesnakes, just use the step on your anvil, it will do just as well, and won't jump around. Actually, for a lot of what a round bottom swage is used for, a "V" swage will work just as well. By the time that a bottom swage is properly dressed so as not to leave "pinch marks" all over a workpiece, it is nearly a "V" swage, just with a rounded bottom. I've never tried it, but I would think you could make a decent fabricated swage by welding a couple of pieces of heavy plate together to form a "V", then filleting the apex of the "V" with the welder. Grind it a bit with the 4-1/2" grinder held at an angle to match the effective radius, and you're done, but for the shank, of course. Blacksmiths can think of LOTS of different ways to skin one poor cat. (grin) |
| vicopper - Wednesday, 01/18/06 19:03:53 EST |
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Ellen, I just remembered that just bought a nifty new flypress! There's you're "powerhammer" for forging that swage. Take a piece of rod just under 2", say abouit 1-3/4" if you have any, and smack it down into a nice hot piece of steel...instant swage. |
| vicopper - Wednesday, 01/18/06 19:11:45 EST |
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That was great reading! The projects you suggested were also great. I'm a welder 20 years, ladder years I welded aerospace and then a teacher. I claim to be an expert of metal, fabrication specifically, but not the making of. But this is not why I'm writing. My mastering is that of a staff. My skill has brought me to the ends of my staff, hence a sword. This has prompted me to buy swords. I have quite a collection and have modified most. What I am looking for however, is a group of dedicated people who study the purpose and use of the tool/weapon. If you can help me, I would very much appreciate it. Sincerely, Thomas P.s. Have you come across anyone who had their own idea of a sword. Length/width of blade. Length/width/shape of handle. I can't find anything I am looking for and can't find anyone to get involved with the re-grinding and shaping of some of my current swords. Thank you. |
| Thomas - Wednesday, 01/18/06 19:19:33 EST |
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Thomas flee over to swordforum.com there are as number of forums there including ones on western martial arts as werll as the japanese sword arts. There are a large number of custom makers out there but who wants to assume the liability of modifying someone else's work? Check in the swordforum.com's forum about folks modifying stuff themselves. Thomas |
| Thomas P - Wednesday, 01/18/06 19:48:24 EST |
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Steve. I'm already a part of UMBA and have met Mike Garret and Joe Stanley. I also try to make to the hammers ins at Dave and Babes. Aparently if your anybody, your there ( thats what i was told, haven't been there long enough to make my own judgement). I'm north of Sterling Rockfalls. Middle of nowhere. |
| newbie in NW ILL - Wednesday, 01/18/06 20:46:00 EST |
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Addendium: Grand Detour is the next town over. |
| newbie in NW ILL - Wednesday, 01/18/06 20:48:33 EST |
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Thought about Western European swords. They seem to be simply sharpened steel sticks, as they were meant entirely for fighting. Good for bashing and slashing. I'd recommend that you start with making these. Not that I know how to do it, I just consider myself a middle ages aficionado. Two new question about tools. I have a wood lathe and a wood drill press.. Can I make these work for metal turning and cutting? I'm not looking for precise results, yet. I have a truck with a coil spring going bad, as in bottoming out going over drive way changes. Is there anyway to even temporarily (2-3 months) restore its vitality? I have access to gas torches, Arc welders, a coal forge, plasma cutters. (I don't know if any of these will help) |
| newbie in NW ILL - Wednesday, 01/18/06 21:01:26 EST |
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Newbie, Wood tools are for working wood, and mostly are not at all suitable for working metal. The stresses involved in metal working are many times greater than those in wood working and will trash the tool. Speeds have to be much slower when cutting metal than when cutting wood. You can drill a 1/2" hole in wood at 2000rpm with no problems at all, but if you try that same speed with steel you'll promptly burn up a bit. Drilling steel also requires much more feed pressure, and the drill press may or may not be up to that without flexing. The same situation applies when trying to turn metal. You need slow speeds with geared power, something that wood lathes don't have. Most hobbiest type lathes don't have nearly rigid enough ways or headstocks to resis the forces of turning metal, even if you did go to the trouble of jackshafting them down to a low enough speed. About the only thing you can do with metal on a wood lathe is to spin it, and that only with pretty soft metal such as aluminum or copper. Even then, your wood lathe may not turn slowly enough for spinning safely, and it may not have a rigid enough tailstock. Metal work just plain takes more force. As for "rehabilitating" a coil spring on a vehicle? No way. Not unless you are a professional spring shop with loads and loads of liability insurance. Those springs are critical to the safe handling of the vehicle, and people's lives are at stake. Don't even think about it. A new spring can't be so expensive it is worth risking your life or the life of another. |
| vicopper - Wednesday, 01/18/06 22:25:34 EST |
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newbie: Don't try to alter the springs Yourself, replace them, or for an easy but half-assed cure put on helper spring shocks or air shocks. There were at one time rubber bladers to put inside coil springs, I don't know if there still is. The drill press needs to run slower for metal, one way is to replace the motor with an 1150 RPM motor. a better way is to build a jackshaft to get extra reduction. One of the Walker Turner drillpresses We have is built that way from the factory. The other one has a homemade jackshaft, the pulley has a bronze bushing in it that runs on a mild steel shaft atached to the motor bracket. The step pulley is on the jackshaft, the motor has a small pulley on it. This gives 260 rpm at the low end and 900 at top speed. You don't get to use the top groove on the spindle pulley with this setup without running the belt out of line because the belt from the motor is on the top groove of the jackshaft pulley. On rare ocasions when I need higher speed I run the belt out of line [top groove on the spindle & 2nd one down on the jackshaft to get 1400 RPM] The factory setup has step pulleys on all 3 locations. The wood lathe is less suited for metalworking, if it is a really beafy one You could bolt a cross slide table to it and mount a toolholder on it, but it wouldn't be a replacement for a metal lathe. |
| Dave Boyer - Wednesday, 01/18/06 22:44:12 EST |
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blackbart-- Good choice, I think. Just be careful not to set it anywhere that will show in the finished piece. The clamps leave deep bite marks. If it's just a point, that's not too conspicuous, but the circular bites are. I'd buy the ones with cups, the circular bite. |
| Miles Undercut - Wednesday, 01/18/06 22:49:43 EST |
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Ritch Pierce : The backtaper shouldnt excede .001"per inch per side. The relief that Guru mentions leaves what is called the "land" this is perfectly round but it is narrow to keep from galling against the side of the hole. A verry long time ago larger drills were made of flat stock twisted, but I have only ever seen one, about 7/8". The cutting edge if made from 1% carbon tool steel should be tempered to pale yellow. Point geometry should be like any drillbit, see Machinery's Handbook. Yes a bit can be made by hand, a half decent bit could be made in a tool& cutter grinding shop. BUT WHY BOTHER unless You are trying to replicate primative tooling? Good quality drillbits are acurate, and work excelently, that is why they look like they do. |
| Dave Boyer - Wednesday, 01/18/06 22:58:05 EST |
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Oh, well. I need the truck to earn a living, and a living to run the truck so just thought that is I could have few months to save up the money. |
| newbie in NW ILL - Wednesday, 01/18/06 23:08:50 EST |
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Ron, I've split a pipe but not with the wall thickness I would need to withstand a lot of pressure. Basically I am wanting to build a bottom swage for my new flypress; anything with a hardy shank on it mounts nicely to a flypress one you get a decent steel "table" on it and make a bolster to hold the hardy shank. There's not any bounce back like you would get with a hammer blow, so no need to bolt the hardy shank to the botton of the bolster. The sides just need to withstand a lot of pressure. I have an offer of a 3/8" walled pipe and that sounds like it might work well. Rich, your idea of welding two heavy plates together and making a "v" is a good one, and one worth trying if some of the other ideas I'm getting don't pan out. As to pressing it into a hot block of steel those who know the bigger flypresses say mine is too small for that (only 100# flying weight), and frankly by the time you want more power than that you need something besides a fly press. If I just wanted to beat something half round with a hammer my new swage block is perfect for that, just trying to figure out a way to use my flypress to press things half round, or close to it. Always a lot of good ideas here, I'm glad to be able to ask questions and get some good answers. Jim "Paw Paw" always used to say you can support this website for less than the price of a cup of coffee for a year; around here coffee is selling in restaurants for up to $1.50 a cup (Denny's us up to $1.70 a cup) so it would only take a month now....grin! |
| Ellen - Wednesday, 01/18/06 23:19:58 EST |
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I attended one of Francis Whitaker's demonstration where he talked about making top and bottom swage dies. His technique was to clamp two pieces of stock together with one layer of business cards inbetween. Then the stocked was precisely drilled out. The business card thickness allowed the necessary clearance when in use. At one time Robb Gunter's soap based quench was all the rage for making these out of mild steel and then hardening them. |
| Ken Scharabok - Wednesday, 01/18/06 23:58:27 EST |
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Ellen-- me, I'd torch cut the max half-circle my rig could handle-- 3 or 4 inches-- out of solid stock and arc weld the two together to get the width you need. |
| Miles Undercut - Thursday, 01/19/06 00:59:22 EST |
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Guru, I'm giving a brief presentation on ancient Chinese swordmaking techniques. Baogang/"wrapped" steel and qiangang/"inserted" steel, seem pretty easy to understand. The third technique called "twistcore" had an interesting feature and I was curious if you knew anything more about how it is achieved...I guess with the twistcore technique one takes parrallel bars of interlaced hard and soft steel (would that be vertically or horizontally or both?)and forges them into a single unit. One of my sources said when this was then ground and polished that you could see "feathery, star-shaped, or swirling elements" in the blade. So I guess my question is how & why would that happen and how much active control would a master swordsmith necessarily have in determining the nature/shape/design of those type of elements? Thanks...hoping this doesn't come off as another dumb Gen-X swordmaking question. |
| steve - Thursday, 01/19/06 01:24:48 EST |
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Steve, The technique you describe is covered very well in Dr. James P. Hrisoulas' book, "The Pattern Welded Blade", available through most online booksellers. Basically, alternating layers of differing metals are stacked and then forge welded into a solid billet. The billet may be cut and re-stacked/welded a number of times to develop a few hundred layers. The billet is then forged to a square cross section and twisted. The twisting creates the "star" pattern in the finished blade thusly: When the stock is twisted, the material at the center of the bar doesn't move, but the material at the outside moves a great deal, wrapping around the core, so to speak. The long, parallel lines where the differing metals joined are now running almost at right angles to the long axis of the stock. Having done this twisting, the bar is now forged first square again, the to the flat shape needed for a blade. Finally, the rough blade profile is forged. Then comes the grinding. As the blade is ground to finished profile, the differing layers of the billet are cut through, exposing the join lines. Since the core of the stock didn't really move much and the outside moved a lot in the twisting, the grinding reveals a twisty, star-like pattern. The degree to which the bar is twisted affects how dramatically the pattern is defined, as the tighter the twist, the more nearly the outer layers approach being at right angles to the core. A slow twist creates a swirly, woodgrain-like pattern, and a tight twist creates more of a star-like pattern. You can see some nice pictures of the effects possible by checking out Dr. J's website: Http://www.atar.com |
| vicopper - Thursday, 01/19/06 08:39:46 EST |
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Thank you kindly for your responce. thomas |
| Thomas - Thursday, 01/19/06 09:14:50 EST |
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Pattern Welding; I am sure I recall seeing a pattern welded knife that was presented to one of the US ex presidents that had the stars and strips flag in miniture (with correct number of stars I think) along the blade, along with initials and /or dates IN the steel, cant find the link now, but it was almost unbelievable. |
| John N - Thursday, 01/19/06 09:20:48 EST |
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Pattern welded blade; kenw I didnt imagine it !! :) http://www.meiersteel.com/gallery/gallery-bushbowie.jpg now thats got to take some skill... |
| John N - Thursday, 01/19/06 09:25:09 EST |
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I was thinking that the twist core was about the same as the Viking swords. Which I believe was made by twisting several rods of metal ( probably high and low carbon ) then the twist was welded. and flattened. THEN an edge of high carbon steel ( hi carbon is a relative term ) was welded to the edge of the core billet. Then the blade was final forged profile and then finished by filing and scraping etc. But I am most likely wrong. Thomas? Do you have any input in this? |
| Ralph - Thursday, 01/19/06 11:29:57 EST |
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Pattern Welding: At the time that our friend Daryl Meier produced the Presidential Presentation Bowie the fact that it could be done was almost a myth. The last time such a thing had been done was during the French Revolution and the motto of the revolution was forged into a bar of steel. He did much of this the hard way. Star shaped bars were made then triangles and diamonds of fill forge welded into the bundle. Then the star bundle was drawn out, cut and welded into a bar of the star field which would in turn be cut to make multiple flags. The bar was then cut polished and etched to inspect it. When Daryl was done with the first attempt he marveled at what he had done. Then he counted the stars. One had gotten misshapened and dissapeared! It would have to be done again. But in the mean time he traveled the country and gave away little star field billets from the rejected piece. When the Governor of Illinois asked Daryl to do this job he told the Governor he couldn't afford it! But he would do the job if he could meet the President when it was presented. That photo on Daryl's site is his pay. Daryl has since retired and tends his grapes which he sells to Illinois winemakers. Since Daryl proved it could be done there have been many advance in pattern welding. One is called "mosaic". In this process square bars of two types of steel are stacked in a grid pattern and forge welded together. When the billet is drawn out the bars which may have been 1/4" (7mm) square are reduced to 1/64" (.5mm)or so. Like pixels on a computer screen they blend together so that the eye cannot tell. With this method almost any kind of pattern no matter how complicated can be created by anyone with basic laminated steel making skills. Another high tech method is to create a shape by machining or handworking it then using that part to cut a hole in another piece of steel via EDM (Electrical Discharge Machining). This two pieces are then assembled and forge welded together. And the most high production, high tech method is powdered metal Damascus. In this process dissimilar steel powders are placed in a form in layers (like sand art)in a container then heated and welded by electromagnetic methods. This billet is then forged or rolled into bars. Using parts of this method many bladesmiths do what is known as a container weld. In this method the billet is carefully stacked then placed inside a piece of stainless steel tubing and seal welded. A small vent hole is drilled and a little kerosene is dripped in. When the whole is heated the kerosene evaporates and burns off leaving an oxygen free environment to make the weld. Clean steel forge welds very nicely in an oxygen free environment. After the weld is made the container is cut open and scraped. The combination of all these methods have taken what was once a difficult high skill level art and turned it into a craft. It still requires a great deal of man hours but failure is much less common and hundreds or thousands do it. Such is the advancement of our art. |
| - guru - Thursday, 01/19/06 11:37:26 EST |
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European swords were elegant precisely designed blades with sharp edges---all the fancy pieced construction methods the japanese have used were used in Europe centuries before they were used in Japan. There are differences in design based on a different use cases. European blades are generally through tempered resulting in a springier blade better suited to the hurly burly of mass combat with people useing armour and shields. Japanese blades are more for individual combat and have glass hard edges but a soft back. This results in it taking a very fine sharp edge---but fragile. Chipping or even large sections of the edge are known to fall off---why some blades use ashi---a softer section running to the edge so there is a "stop" point for edge failure. A japanese master swordsman doing a demo under strictly controlled conditions is still prone to having his blade bend and take a set during use---there are very precise instructions on how to repair this, though if the edge has cracked the blade is no longer a "user". There is a lot of "Hype" about japanes blades that end up being mostly the "not from here" effect. Just like we have more swordfighting manuals from Renaissance Europe than we have from Feudal japan---so where do you hear about "traditions handed down"? To be really impressed go to the Arm Museum in Madrid Spain and look at a toledo blade there that they have bent into a spirial and embedded into a block of wood to keep it from springing back straight---that's impressive! Bush Bowie---If you like that sort of thing search on Mosaic Damascus and see the ones of santa claus in his sleigh with all the raindeer, the hunter firing at some ducks with his dog at the ready, etc. Some amazing pieces have been done using wire edm to make the blanks and hydraulic presses for the welding. Thomas |
| Thomas P - Thursday, 01/19/06 11:40:47 EST |
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Thay should be "Army Museum" in my post not Arm. Thomas |
| Thomas P - Thursday, 01/19/06 11:42:43 EST |
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Twisted Core: Ralph, I think you are right. In traditional pattern welded steels there are many patterns created by various methods. Although they may seem random at first glance they are distinct and named much like the patterns of marbling in book end papers. When a twisted core is made the bars are laminated then the edges of the billet rounded to prevent tearing while twisting and then the bar is twisted at a high heat. It then resquared. Often the bar is cut and two pieces welded side by side. In this case the bar is only partial squared as the curved surfaces make a good weld prep. Besides straight and twisted laminates others are made by stock removal. In these a billet is first laminated, then grooves, notches and depressions are cut out of the billet. The billet is then forged flat leaving a topographic map effect. The stock removal for this method is done by grinding or machining. Much of this art is produced with a modern milling machine or shaper. Similar effects are also created by punching various shaped depressions in the billet then removing stock down to the depth of the depressions. In most pattern welding the pattern is brought out by grinding or cutting into the surface. The pattern varies and is quite different at various depths so part of the art is knowing how oversized to make the billet. One reason traditional pattern welded steel is expensive is that 75% or more is waste. You create a ten pound billet and you MIGHT get two pounds of product (one sword, a handful of Bowies). There are numerous books on the subject but most are behind the rapidly growing technology curve. This is also an art where you can let your imagination go wild then try to figure out how to get the results you want. |
| - guru - Thursday, 01/19/06 12:06:50 EST |
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One thing I forgot to mention---the average weight of a using medieval european sword for about 1000 years was about 1kg---2.2 pounds some of the massive 2 handed renaissance swords got up to 6 pounds! A good weight for a japanese katana is about 2.2 pounds So "european heavy dull club swords" on average weigh the same as japanese swords---and the european swords are thinner than a typical japanese sword, have more distal taper, etc... Thomas |
| Thomas P - Thursday, 01/19/06 12:11:30 EST |
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2 questions today: 1. What's the best way to make a knife from a spent drill bit? I have abunch of old rusty ones 5/8" and bigger. I made a knife blank yesterday, but crumbled after a water quench. Is it too high of a carbon to pull off? 2. Anyone have any plans for making an electropolishing setup? That's all for now. Made a micro mini forge yesterday from a spent propane bottle, kaowool, ITC-100, some scrap rod and the Bernz-O TZ8000 unit. Took me 10 minutes to make and was able to get weld heat in 5 minutes!! |
| - Nippulini - Thursday, 01/19/06 12:17:28 EST |
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Flypress Tooling: Ellen, Your flypress should have a center hole and bushing. The round center hole is good for round shanks welded or screwed to tooling. If directional alignment is not critical then round shanks can be used. Even when direction is critical the tool can have a tab welded to it to fit the T-slot or taped tooling holes. Tooling also does not need a shank to stay on the table. Tools can be loose, have tabs to fit the T-slots, tabs to be bolted down through, tabs to be clamped on using standard machine tool table furniture (see our iForge drill press article). Tabs are most often used so that the clamping device or bolt does not extend above the die surface. To make your half round die. Heat a piece of steel about double the thickness of the diameter of the half round. Set on the press, hold a piece of round bar over the hot die block and press it in half way. You want the edges of the die to be heavily radiused so "suck in" is OK. If the die has distinguishable edges use a grinder to radius them. The only difficulty to making this type tooling is finding enough pieces of 1", 1-1/4" and 1-1/2" plate or retangular bar. Once you have your lumps of steel you turn them all into dies in a few hours. |
| - guru - Thursday, 01/19/06 12:39:45 EST |
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Spent Drill Bits: TGN, These are made from very high carbon high alloy HSS (High Speed Steel). This CAN be worked by hand but heat treating is tricky. It is an air quench steel. However, most heat treatment of this steel is done in temperature controlled furnaces where the temperature is carefuly ramped up and down to harden and temper the steel. This is required for the absolute best performance. Forge and let air cool. Heat to about 1550°F (200°F above non-magnetic) then let air cool on a rack where air can surround the part. Once the part is cool but before it is room temperature temper to a minimum of 500°F. It is difficult or impossible to judge the temper temperature of many high alloy steels by temper color. However, if you use a tempering block made of mild steel you can heat it on a cooking stove to the temper temperature and then set your blade on it and let it soak. After this initial minimum temper which will reduce the likelyhood of quench cracking you will probably need to temper at a higher temperature to reduce brittleness. In any junk yard steel this is a trial and error process. However, in a HSS this will be in the 800 to 1000°F range if not higher. Your maximum judge by eye temper color is 650°F where the bright steel starts to take on a light gray (scale). |
| - guru - Thursday, 01/19/06 12:53:21 EST |
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serious question: whats the best way 2 people (ages 20 & 57) can move an power hammer w/ a weight of 1800 lbs. in up-right position on a uneven surface a distance of 20 ft.? |
| - packrat - Thursday, 01/19/06 14:15:49 EST |
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I am trying to machine 304L Stainless steel. I want for the metal and the carbide drill to heat up in order to "activate" the material. The problem is that I keep burning out my drill. I am very new at all of this metal working stuff and wonder what is out there by way of tooling that can withstand the heat. |
| Laura - Thursday, 01/19/06 15:18:37 EST |
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Pakrat, 1) Check the bottom surface of the machine. If it is not flat then it cannot be rolled. Brute force is required. 2) Rolling on pipe is best. However you need a hard fairly flat surface. Hardwood boards (rough cut oak) will work to make a track to roll the machine on. Shim level as needed. Support should be almost continous. 3) 1" pipe is what I have used to move everything from 25 pound Little Giants to 350 pound Chambersburgs. Cut a 21 foot length into 7 equal (approximately 36") pieces then chamfer. This size roller requires a hard surface (concrete, wood, steel). 4) The minimum you need to roll something tall is TWO rollers if the item has a flat bottom. Wedge one under the machine front, push and roll the machine until the roller reaches the center of gravity and you can tip the machine back and slip the second roller in the front. Then roll forward until the machine easily tips back again and repeat. If the bottom of the machine is not smooth and flat I bolt the machine onto two hardwood skids then do as above. The track made from boards does not need to be continous. If you have enough wood to make two short sections you can roll from one pair of tracks to the next then shuffle forward. |
| - guru - Thursday, 01/19/06 15:32:39 EST |
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Further info on the 304L stainless steel. The guy who is selling the SS says that his grain size is small, and the way they process the SS, it changes the way the grain structure of the oxides. When the material heats up (I think he said to around 800 degrees) The oxides "activate" (I call it melt) and then the material is easy to machine. My tool burns out from the heat before I can get the material that hot. |
| Laura - Thursday, 01/19/06 15:34:25 EST |
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Laura This may sound silly, but it has worked for me. Try a carbide tipped masonary drill. I have worked with 303, 304 & 440 stainless a great deal. |
| - burntforge - Thursday, 01/19/06 15:34:45 EST |
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Packrat: All terrain forklift. Unquestionably the best way. (BOG) Now that we have that out of the way... I would probably grade the surface by hand if it wasn't too uneven and use pipe rollers and a comealong or a pallet jack over plywood. If you can get a pallet jack under it that's probably the better option... |
| T. Gold - Thursday, 01/19/06 15:36:05 EST |
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Run the masonary bit slow also. 304SS tends to work harden untill you activate it. You will be surprised how well a masonary bit works. I have used it on thin heat resistant iron as well. Nothing is harder than that chilled iron. Coolant works well to save your bits unless you do not have a coolant mist or flood. |
| - burntforge - Thursday, 01/19/06 15:40:40 EST |
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Chain it to the back of the tank and take it for a scrape round to the new location. How uneven is the terrain. hand moving heavy objects with high centers of gravity on hills is a very tricky proposition---and not worth the cost of the hospital bill if you end up underneath it. if the ground is generally flat with typical unevenness stout boards and rollers can work for you. If it's hilly, go for a method that keeps you from having to be in the fall path! When I moved my screw press I had bolted it onto long skids made from 4x4 to increse it's "footprint" and then chained it to the back of my truck and skidded it over the gravel and out into the alley across from the shop doors. I did this *VERY* *SLOWLY* the idea is to *NEVER* have enough energy in the system that it can tip over if it catches on a rock or root. Then I used rollers and oak 1x6 boards to roll it into the shop. Used the same technique to move it into my new shop as well but this time I coulds skid it into the shop and then roll it out of the way so the truck could get out... Thomas |
| Thomas P - Thursday, 01/19/06 15:46:16 EST |
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I do have coolant. That is exactly the problem I have been having. It has been work hardening on me. How slow? What rpm? What about the feed? |
| Laura - Thursday, 01/19/06 15:48:48 EST |
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Is a masonary bit standard that I can buy somewhere? Are there different kinds? Can I order to a certain specification? |
| Laura - Thursday, 01/19/06 15:51:04 EST |
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Also, what is there a certain type of carbide coat? Sorry I am so new at all of this and I really appreciate your help. |
| Laura - Thursday, 01/19/06 15:53:02 EST |
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"Activate the Metal" Laura, sounds like you have been talking to a bunch of know it alls that are ignorant as dirt OR they were fooling with you. Nothing in machine work is activated by heat except friction and failure. First, HSS drill bits are better for stainless because, 1) They are much cheaper 2) They are sharper and less likely to chip thus cutting better. First rule of machining stainless is that it is 3 times as difficult as mild steel and twice as difficult as tool steel. In general this translates to slower speeds and higher costs. Stainless has a higher coefficient of expansion than steel and the last thing you want is stainless parts getting hot. This results in stuck or broken drills and taps. For general machining of stainless using HSS about 90 - 100 feet per minute is recommended. I find that HALF the general rule applies to drilling of all materials. So about 50 feet per minute is best. For a 1/2" drill that is 382 RPM. (50 * 12/(PI * d") You want to use a cutting oil as coolant/lubricant and NEVER EVER let the bit rub. Always make chips otherwise you will create a work hardened surface that even carbide will not cut. Feed pressure is important to keep makeing chips (NO rubbing). This means drilling with a drill press unless the hole is very small. You cannot provide enough feed pressure by hand except for bits smaller than about 1/4". Being too timid with the feed pressure it the reason for burned up drill bits. The only time you want to "hold back" is when the drill starts to break through, then you need to control the feed rate as if the cut was still 100%. On stainless I always start with NEW high quality HSS bits. Solid carbide drills are used on prehardened tool steels and other very difficult to machine materials. These are run fast and the rubbing rule above applies. |
| - guru - Thursday, 01/19/06 16:00:19 EST |
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Massonary Bits: Despite recent posting hear contrary to the fact, these ARE NOT suitable for drilling metal. The shape is incorect and the carbide grade wrong. Yes there are different types depeding on the material being drilled and the type of tool being used. In metal working there are hundreds of grades of carbide. |
| - guru - Thursday, 01/19/06 16:04:02 EST |
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What do you mean by "when the drill starts to break through? Do you mean through the back side of the material? |
| Laura - Thursday, 01/19/06 16:11:23 EST |
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Also, what about tapping? What do I do for that application? |
| Laura - Thursday, 01/19/06 16:14:14 EST |
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Packrat: On guy in MI hired a crane. He took off a couple of roofing sheets and have the crane set it on his foundation. If this is practical, check around for folks who lift A/C units, etc. on top of buildings. Question: Someone today asked me about 60% ALUMINA firebrick for a forge. How do they differ from 2,300 and 2,600 degree firebrick? |
| Ken Scharabok - Thursday, 01/19/06 17:19:51 EST |
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Laura DISAGREE CONCERNING MASONARY BIT!! I HAVE HAD A LITTLE MORE EXPERIENCE!! I AM GOING TO STOP TRYING TO HELP FOLKS OUT!! WHEN SOME ARE BOOK SMART AND EXPERIENCE DUMB!! I usually don't disagree with Jock. I have more years as a very skilled machinist than most folks here other than Dave Boyer. Masonary Bits do work awesome. Laura you are talking about the point where the stainless work hardens from the heat put into it without coolant. You need to break through that thin layer in order to drill it. I would never have been able to drill heat resistant iron that was chilled if I would not have used masonary bits. Carbide endmills, carbide burrs, cobalt and carbide drills would not touch it. You need less of an angle on your bits to drill hard materials. The standard 118 degrees is too steap. I am trying to not use technical terms since you are new to meatl. Buy yourself a good colbalt twist drill for metal. Try to find one with lass angle at the cutting end. It will likely do the job. If not I bet a masonary bit will. If it is a good quality one. I machined 303, 304, 316 and 440 every day for years. I had to put all sizes and hundreds of holes in each unit. Some were 30+ inches deep. I think I have had a little practice and know ways to cheat it and make it work. |
| - burntforge - Thursday, 01/19/06 17:23:40 EST |
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IF YOU DON'T LIKE MY POST...TUFF!! |
| - burntforge - Thursday, 01/19/06 17:24:42 EST |
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I treat s/s the same as steel, its just tougher, and it "picks up" more than steel does. I use carbide tip drill bits to break in again when for some reason the cut has glazed but you need to sharpen it like a metalwork not a masonary bit, a green stone is needed for good practice, if your tappin deep and small use a bigger tappin drill than the book says, its cheaper . |
| grimme - Thursday, 01/19/06 17:37:22 EST |
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HERE IS THE THING. THIS IS THE FIRST REAL TIME I AM TOTALLY ANGRY. EVERYONE HAS A DIFFERENT OPINION AND APPROACH. YOU CAN HAVE A DIFFRENT OPINION JOCK...FINE. DON'T BE RUDE AND UNDERMIND MY SIMPLE TRICK I GAVE THIS PERSON IN YOUR POSTS. IT IS COST AFFECTIVE AND EASY. I DRILLED HUNDREDS OF HOLES EVERYDAY. IN SOME MANY MATERIALS YOUR HEADS WOULD SPIN. I KNOW A FEW TRICKS..OK. THROW YOUR HANDBOOK AWAY AND GO TRY IT! YOU INSULTED A DESIGNER AND MANUFACTURE WHO EMPLOYEED THIS TRICK OFTEN. YES I AM SHOUTING |
| - burntforge - Thursday, 01/19/06 17:40:34 EST |
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I respect grimme's post because of how he wrote it and he is correct in his approach as well. |
| - burntforge - Thursday, 01/19/06 17:42:24 EST |
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Knowing there are many experts that view this site, I have a question that I hope someone can help me with. I am currently working on a sculpture that is just about 18' tall and almost 5' in diameter.I'm looking to have it plated (not galvenized) I'm open for information as to who might be able to do such a large piece. I'm thinking of cad plating, copper, or chrome. I just don't want to paint it unless i have to. If that's the case then i'll have it powder coated.It's made of 5/8" rod and is a wire type frame sculpture w/ a 3/4"x48" plate on the bottom for a base. Total weight is about 900lbs.Does anyone know of a company in the US that can handle large objects for plating??????Please Anyone???????????? |
| jeremy k - Thursday, 01/19/06 17:56:22 EST |
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The above post is a valid inquiry. The reason I'm looking for something of a different look is that this sculpture is going to be at the end of my own driveway so i can use it as a reference point on giving directions to my clients. I've always had this problem (always doing things that are out of the ordinary)not that it's a bad thing but that's just me --- different--- in my own way.Thank You ,Jeremy |
| jeremy k - Thursday, 01/19/06 18:08:45 EST |
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Sometimes through thinking outside the box and experimentation we find unconvetional tricks that work great in blacksmithing/metalwork. These tricks will not run parallell with a handbook. References are very important. Total reliance on h |