| WELCOME to the anvilfire Guru's Den - V. 3.0 |
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THIS is a forum for questions and answers about blacksmithing and general metalworking. Ask the Guru any reasonable question and he or one of his helpers will answer your question, find someone that can, OR research the question for you. This is an archive of posts from January 24 - 31, 2006 on the Guru's Den |
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Gransfors axes, Ops! I stand corrected! They do show the limited production axe models. If one looks at their website, http://www.gransfors.com/ See the menu to the left and clik "Download Area" at the bottom of the image, clik "Go to the Pictures" , Scroll down to see the axe of your dreams..... Also if you look at the other "go to pictures" section for prybars, Notice the square shafted nail. Virtually all nails in Sweden are square. Unlike the massproduced square "cut nail" that was common in USA 100 or so years past. The Swedish nails are made just like the round USA nails excepting the wire base material is square wire, The heading and pointing process is still the same. |
| - Håkan - Tuesday, 01/24/06 00:15:35 EST |
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vicopper-- You, too? I have been wrong by actual count 5,426 times so far just this year alone. In fact, this count is probably incorrect. manidemers-- A thousand pardons. I meant no disrespect to the Henrob. Just that I tried hard some years back to get the straight dope on what the torch could do and the dealer was verrrry coy. And was claiming then that it could indeed cut stainless. Even now, you will note, their website indicates it will cut like plasma. Yup. |
| Miles Undercut - Tuesday, 01/24/06 00:58:13 EST |
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I cut 1/2" x 3" scrap yard find stainless with my chop saw. Works fine for me. Scrap yard price is $1.00 lb. I also have a Henrob (www.portableweldingtorch.com). Note there is a different set-up for cutting and oxy/ace welding. I have seen it weld aluminum as they now hawk it to farriers using aluminum shoes. Set-up for cutting has a supplement oxygen supply to blow out slag. I basically use mine as a plasma-type cutter for thin stock (although no where as neatly as Dal McGill does at Quad-State) and as a precise point heat source for vise bending. However, I have also cut up to 1" thick mild steel plate with it. On the old irons, those which were heated on a stove or such were called sad irons. Anyone know why? BTW, that 10 lb H-B on eBay went for a tad over $1,500 ($150 lb). About what the 15 LB PW sold for, but a couple of hundred more than a similar size Swedish brand anvil. |
| Ken Scharabok - Tuesday, 01/24/06 03:05:24 EST |
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Torch Cutting Stainless: You can cut the heavy stuff fairly torch like by feeding a small bar (1/8" 3mm) into the the stream of oxygen. This creates the necessary oxidation to get a high temperature cut. But the process is still somewhat "melt and blow", it just uses less gas to heat with. However, as you can imagine this is a REAL art feeding that rapidly consumed rod into the oxygen stream on the side toward the moving cut. I have never tried it but that is the method shown in the text books. |
| - guru - Tuesday, 01/24/06 09:26:56 EST |
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Thermocouples: Most Gas waterheaters and other gas appliances with a standing pilot flame DO have them, in the safety circuit. These are NOT for temperature measurment, but to detect the presence of the pilot flame. SAD Irons: I'm told that it is because anyone who had to use them was soon sad about it! Cutting with the O/A: Carbon is not a requirement. The material to be cut must have a low enough conductivity to allow a spot to be brought to ignition temperature, AND the base material muse burn very exothermicly in Oxygen. Aluminum fails because of its high conductivity, and stainless because the nickel and chrome prevent the ignition in oxygen at the temp available. |
| - John Odom - Tuesday, 01/24/06 09:45:18 EST |
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Jock; I have done the bit with the steel rod, a welding rod, as a matter of fact. It does help break down the stainless somewhat, but you're still not going to get a "pretty" kerf like you might get with, say, a plasma cutter. A Metabo, lotsa cutting discs, (and a good respirator) might do it. |
| 3dogs - Tuesday, 01/24/06 12:00:58 EST |
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"Henrob" sounds like an archaic term for "chicken thief". (I apologize, Lord, for the lame attempt at humor.) |
| 3dogs - Tuesday, 01/24/06 12:05:09 EST |
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Hey guys, I just put the finishing touches on my smithing page of my website. I would really appreciate your thoughts, comments and opinions on my work. Most of the stuff on the page couldn't have been done without you guys here at Anvilfire. This place is an immensely rich resource for knowledge and technique, thanks for everything! Nippulini http://greatnippulini.com/smithin.html |
| - Nippulini - Tuesday, 01/24/06 12:05:57 EST |
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TGN, just thought I would ask before I possibly had a discussion with IT---is your site work safe? Cutting Stainless: I have heard of someone using an arc welder and laying down a bit of plain steel rod and cutting through it as well. Thomas |
| Thomas P - Tuesday, 01/24/06 12:24:14 EST |
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Randy, I'm still thinking and wondering about the "Heters" mentioned in your 1767 inventory. Perhaps the authors meant bed warmers? |
| Frank Turley - Tuesday, 01/24/06 12:28:45 EST |
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Redressing Anvils: I've been given 80 pound anvils three in fact, all in crappy condition. How can I redress the edges? So far I've tried 1060 arc welding, on the DC setting. That didn't work, so I tried a thinner, yellower rod. ( I think its 3--- or 7--- I know that covers a lot of ground.) Next I'm going ot grind off all the excess. Willl this work? |
| - anymous - Tuesday, 01/24/06 13:09:08 EST |
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Redressing Anvils: I've been given 80 pound anvils three in fact, all in crappy condition. How can I redress the edges? So far I've tried 1060 arc welding, on the DC setting. That didn't work, so I tried a thinner, yellower rod. ( I think its 3--- or 7--- I know that covers a lot of ground.) Next I'm going ot grind off all the excess. Willl this work? |
| Anonymous - Tuesday, 01/24/06 13:09:52 EST |
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Anonymous: Your anvil tops might be cast iron, chilled cast iron, semi-steel, ductile iron, wrought iron, steel or a steel plate. Without knowing what you are trying to weld onto, impossible for anyone to recommend a welding technique. Can you identify brand of anvil? |
| Ken Scharabok - Tuesday, 01/24/06 13:19:37 EST |
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Dude, if their in crappy condition, why dont you do a spark-test? (Just a sugestion.) |
| - packrat - Tuesday, 01/24/06 13:40:13 EST |
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Randy's inventory. I still think occam's razor applies here. A box iron (instead of a flat iron, sad iron, gas iron, electric iron etc) and heters. Sheilds with a flat top and a pointy bottom are refered to as heaters because they have the shape shape as heaters for putting in a box iron for smoothing clothing. (of course I rarely apply a razor of anysort so...........) (this wild guess brought to you by me only, and has nothing to do with the letters C,S,&I. Or the colour blue. |
| JimG - Tuesday, 01/24/06 13:41:14 EST |
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Thomas P., work site safe? Do you mean my shop? Is it like 'work area approved'? Probably not, but I do have many fire extiguishers and a fire blanket in the shop. It may be cluttered like heck, but I'm sure most of you guys have a messy work table too! Now if you mean is my site 'cyber safe', I don't know the exact level it's at. There is little use of expletives on 1 or 2 pages, but the site is over 35 pages in content. The specific page I posted is entirely 'safe', all it is is pics of my smithing and welding work and photos of the shop... which I believe is on topic here at the Guru's Den. I just wanted you guys to see my work, that's all. Sorry to cause any concern. |
| - Nippulini - Tuesday, 01/24/06 14:37:13 EST |
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I am currently looking for a tubular gas forge with a thermostat ( for working on silicon bronze ) Could you point me in the right direction for my search? Regards, Mike Vinson |
| Mike Vinson - Tuesday, 01/24/06 15:02:24 EST |
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I have never seen a commercially made gas forge with a thermostat. Which is not to say they dont exist, somewhere. But I have friends who do MokemeGane, which requires very precise temperature controls, and some use gas forges. They have purchased digital readout thermostat units for a couple of hundred bucks, and added them to gas forges themselves. You need an electricly operated gas valve, too. Not sure what brand or type of thermostat- I never looked real close, but I know I have seen em in action, and the added price to a gas forge is less than $500. I know glassblowers require precise temp controls, so glassblowing supply houses sell good thermostats. But really, for just forging silicon bronze, do you really need that precise of a temp control? I have forged a lot of bronze, much of it Naval, which is pickier than silicon bronze, and I find focus, a darkened room, and practice make it pretty easy. Just take it out before it melts. Yuk Yuk Yuk. |
| - Ries - Tuesday, 01/24/06 15:15:58 EST |
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Mike Vinson, I'd suggest you look into heat-treating ovens. They have precise temperature control, and a few are available as gas-fired. Try a Google search. If you want to do it on the cheap, you could get a thermocouple-driven gas valve, safety pilot and solenoid valve from some of the companies that make thermocouples. It'll cost you upwards of $400 to do it to an existing forge, but that will still be a tenth the cost of a decent heat-treating furnace. You don't need the ramping/timing features of the furnace, anyway. |
| vicopper - Tuesday, 01/24/06 15:39:05 EST |
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TGN, No problem with posting the link to your smithing page. I checked it out and you have some interesting things. You going to post some pics of the body art "in situ", as it were? Or would that de-rate the page to "R"? (grin) BTW, the pic of the wine rack didn't load for me; might be my computer here at work, I don't know. Keep on working at it, and keep on having fun with it! |
| vicopper - Tuesday, 01/24/06 15:44:13 EST |
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Nice site Nippulini. Thanks for the link back. The link to your work page is broken, and the picture of your wine rack didn't load for me. I've been thinking about doing some piercing jewelry for a while, but was affraid that the heating would somehow make the stainless not work right. I didn't want to be the cause of any infections. I'm not into piercings myself, but I have several friends who are. |
| FredlyFX - Tuesday, 01/24/06 16:34:52 EST |
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TGN; no problem, I just remember some of the questions you have asked in the past and while I have never had an issue with them I just didn't want my Boss called in to explain why I was looking at something the company thought I shouldn't be. Text is generally not a concern; anatomy is... Thomas |
| Thomas P - Tuesday, 01/24/06 16:35:07 EST |
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Mike Vinson-- try Ransome in California, purveyors of all sorts of gas heating equipment, Venturis, etc. |
| Miles Undercut - Tuesday, 01/24/06 16:53:18 EST |
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My grandfather, an irascible Irishman, once threw one across the dining room in Johnstown, Pa. at my father when he was just a kid and it left the latter quite sad for the rest of his 76 years. |
| Miles Undercut - Tuesday, 01/24/06 17:00:08 EST |
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hey, new guy here. i need to know: what is the forge welding temp for a bar of 5160 tempered steel? |
| - Megil anveleth - Tuesday, 01/24/06 17:55:44 EST |
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Furnace and Forge Controls: No matter how you do it controls are pricey. They alwasy have been and probably always will be. On high amperage electric kilns and furnaces you must have a heavy duty high reliability contactor to switch the current on and off. On a gas furnace you can use modulated controls or simple on/off. But in either case as with the electric you start with a controller and thermocouple. Then for gas you need a solenoid valve with sufficient capacity. I made the mistake on my big forge of using a valve with only a .050" orifice and it ended up needing excessive pressure to operate. On my big forge and a furnace I built the controls operate the fan and the gas. In order to prevent flash back and/or back firing (loudly) the fan must start first and come up to speed before the gas valve is opened. This required a little $90 ice cube on-delay timer. The fan speed was controlled by a simple manual control. The problem with this is that even the little 120CFM fans will often stall if you try to start them at less than full current. SO. . the fan is operated on a bypass circuit for the couple seconds until the gas is turned on. ALSO, to insure that the device was not operating un-lit there is electric ignition. On the two units I built the control hardware cost roughly $400 NOT including a temperature control. The furnace with temperature control used an ancient electro mechanical coal furnace controller with mercury contacts and a foot long display. The modern low dollar equivalent is about $400. The forge I built has two operating modes. Full on, and "auto". The automatic mode uses two timing relays to obtain a dwell on and dwell off operation. The forge will run for 8 seconds and rest for 12. This will keep a hot forge at about 1200°F. Although the repeated and unexpected "whumph" every so often is nerve racking it saves fuel when the forge is not in use and keeps it ready to go. This would also be suitable for forging some non-ferrous metals. Don Fogg used a simple control system on his salt pots where he turned the gas on and off but let the fan run. . . For tempering in my big forge I used the heat of the fire brick lining. I used that big old funace read out and thermocouple to check the furnace temperature. When the temperature was about 450°F I would put a die in the forge and watch the temperature slowly drop. The tempering temperature was estimated at 25°F below the starting temperature. This was backed up by the yellow has on the surface of the part. I have parts of a Mokume Gane' demo on my old PC. The author used a forge and just did it. It was one of those deals where you could tell there would be ocassional failures but with practice you could be sucessful often enough to justify not having expensive controls. |
| - guru - Tuesday, 01/24/06 18:11:03 EST |
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Megil, That's a good one. I've read that mild steel begins to lightly spark at 2280ºF, so 5160 would be just under that, a sweating heat. |
| Frank Turley - Tuesday, 01/24/06 18:14:39 EST |
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"Real" work has kept me from the hobby for over a year, and so this weekend when I finally got a few hours free I jumped in the car and drove from Nashville, TN an hour into the country, where I keep my home made coal forge and home made anvil to pound out 16 months of frustration. A bucket of coal and three sheets of the Sunday paper later I'm back to making a mess of some 3/8" square stock that I now like to call my hat hook. Just as the hook is cooling on the wire shelf, though, the fire starts to dim, and no amount of air from my modified hair-dryer blower will get it back to the good heat I'd been getting out of it for the last 25 minutes or so. Digging deep into my coal (after dutifully letting it cool down before dissassembling it), I find the problem. The 3/8" metal grate bar (just one bar over the 1.5" hole) I use to keep my good coal from falling into the ash dump has burned completely through. Making another one is not a problem, but thinking back I've had to replace this thing every 3-4 times I fire up the forge. The firepot is slightly shallower than I'd like and I think that is to blame for my burning grate. I'm remedying that with some plate steel, and have decided that rather than add another grate to just burn up and make me waste my valuable hobby time doing mundane things like making forge grate bars (as opposed to the much more noble work of creating an endless supply of hat hooks, letter openers, fireplace tools and other "artistic" creations from the same steel) I want to add a clinker breaker to my huble home-built firepot. Pouring over the internet for the last few hours, I've found plenty of not-so-up close pictures of cast or drop-forged store-bought clinker breakers that I really can't see how exactly they work. I used a firepot with a breaker when I attended a weekend class in Pigeon Forge but at the time I was very (very) green and took it for granted. Does anyone know a good source of some detailed description of one that I might emulate in my do-it-myself version? I like the idea of making my own tools, because it's much more rewarding to make something, using only tools you have also made (Some say that makes me cheap? Clearly they've never tried it themselves) so I'd rather not try to rig a store-bought breaker into a home-made tuyere, so has anyone made their own that might impart the details? The more pictures, the more better. I'm a visual thinker. With a new job, and a new appartment much closer to the forge, I should be up there a lot more often and I've got a year and a half of creativity to burn once I get this blasted forge working right. |
| HPL Steele - Tuesday, 01/24/06 18:47:08 EST |
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Can you help me for my 4th grade project. I would like to know what a whitesmith is. |
| Brooks - Tuesday, 01/24/06 19:50:02 EST |
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HPL Steele, I'll send you a quick sketch e-mail. Can't post pics here. |
| vicopper - Tuesday, 01/24/06 19:52:58 EST |
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vicopper, Of corse the steel is going to turn out with a melted, nasty, jagged edge. No one specified how smooth or how rough the cut edge had to turn out. The meaning of my debate of cutting stainless with an O/A torch was that it is VERY possible. If you want a good smooth cut on the edge of your stainless, just use a bandsaw. It will cut it and cut it smooth. GUARENTEED! |
| Hillbillysmith - Tuesday, 01/24/06 20:40:28 EST |
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Brooks, If I am right, (and anyone can correct me if I am wrong) a whitesmith is someone who works on all of the non-ferrous metals such as brass, copper, aluminum, gold and some other "presious" metals. P.S: There are blacksmiths, whitesmiths, tinsmiths, siversmiths, pewterers, jewelers, and watchmakers. And like I said, anyone feel free to correct me if I am wrong. I just want to give him all of the CORRECT info. as Brooks needs. |
| Hillbillysmith - Tuesday, 01/24/06 20:49:17 EST |
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Tyler: It's a belt grinder, dude. In their sharpening section they mention a powered grinding stone as a last resort, but please note they mean a water-cooled one! Brooks and Hillbillysmith: A whitesmith is not someone who works nonferrous metals. A whitesmith "cleans up" forged iron. The tools of the trade are files and sandpaper. See "Professional Smithing" by Don Streeter for examples. |
| Alan-L - Tuesday, 01/24/06 21:02:15 EST |
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Brooks, Generally we don't do homework for you, but ther seems to be some confusion, so I'll try to clear it up. A whitesmith, as Alan L said, does the finish work after the blacksmith has forged a piece to shape. The forging process leaves the iron with a fire scale fsurface, which is black in color, hence the term "blacksmith." The whitesmith refers to the fact that the file, grindstone and sandpaper or scraper work leaves the metyal once again shiny steel, or white-looking. These days, there really aren't any whitesmiths left, as that position mostly went out with the end of the guild system and the advent of the modern industrial revolution. A couple hundred years ago, there were differing guilds of smiths who did very specialized tasks, such as the armoursmith, the cutler, the farrier, the toolsmith, etc. Often, their work was sent out to a whitesmith for final finishing. Nowadays, most blacksmiths do a much wider range of duties than was done in the past, and so do most of their own whitesmithing. |
| vicopper - Tuesday, 01/24/06 21:10:50 EST |
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To finish out the dielectic on whitesmith: Websters New International Dictionary, Second Edition: Whitesmith 1: one who works in tinned or galvanized iron or white iron, a tinsmith 2: a worker in iron who finishes or polishes the work, in distinction from one who forges it. Thomas |
| Thomas Powers - Tuesday, 01/24/06 21:35:46 EST |
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Alright then, thanks! i have one more: i have a 1.5" by 1.5" bar of an unknown metal. my dad said that it's steel, but he's a car guy, not a blacksmith. by weight for mass, i thought it was cast iron. is there some way to tell other than heating it and hammering to see if it shatters? i'd hate to waste some of it. thanks again and in advance! |
| - Megil anveleth - Tuesday, 01/24/06 21:51:39 EST |
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Guru, I am making a hall tree and wonder if there is a formula for how wide the base needs to be depending on the height. My tree will be 6' tall. I worry about stability. Thanks for the help with a formula if one exists. Betsy |
| Betsy - Tuesday, 01/24/06 21:58:49 EST |
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Megil, The densities of steel and cast iron are so close that I doubt most people can tell the difference by feel. You can calculate the density of your piece by measuring it, then use the handy Mass3j calculator available on the drop down menu above. You'll note from Mass3j that the density of cast iron is about 7.1 and mild steel is about 7.8 if I'm not mistaken. This is assuming that it is ferrous metal, a magnet sticks to it and all that. You can also do a spark test. For details, see the FAQ's on junkyard steel and the 21st Century page for "Getting Started". |
| vicopper - Tuesday, 01/24/06 22:10:58 EST |
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Betsy, A lot of the stability of tall objects like your hall tree has to do with the center of mass, sometimes called the center of gravity. If the piece is very dense and heavy at the base and light and airy at the top, you can get away with less base dimension than you could if it were heavy on top and light on the bottom. I am not aware of any mathematical formulae for calculating the ratios, however. Keep in mind how far away from the center post that a bulky coat will hang, and have the base be at least 1-1/2 times that wide for stability would be my suggestion. Artistically, most things in nature get smaller at the top or less dense at least, and have heavier bottoms. Trees are an example. Generally speaking, that same sort of visual balance works pretty well for manmade forms, too. When designing a hall tree, keep enough mass at the base so it doesn't look top heavy before it even gets a coat or hat on it. |
| vicopper - Tuesday, 01/24/06 22:20:18 EST |
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Frank Turley: I don't keep track of the times I am wrong, the numbers get too big too fast, I hadn't considered a Gas water heater, they arn't used much around My area due to the lack of piped in gas. Sure enough that little thing aside of the pilot is a thermocouple. |
| Dave Boyer - Tuesday, 01/24/06 22:33:36 EST |
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Dave Boyer, Not a big deal. We have a big propane tank here. |
| Frank Turley - Tuesday, 01/24/06 22:59:02 EST |
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Frank : Is propane competetive with oil out there? Here[Southeastern Pa.] it is rether pricey, but I have seen a few newer homes with tanks. Only a few are still using coal here, [for home heat]but it used to be quite popular and cheaper than oil if You don't count the hassle factor of hauling out the ashes. |
| Dave Boyer - Wednesday, 01/25/06 00:10:24 EST |
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Dave, over to hammer-in... |
| Frank Turley - Wednesday, 01/25/06 00:34:30 EST |
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Megil: Just drill a hole in it. If cast iron you won't get chips, per se, but something which will look like metal sand. If steel you should get nice longish curls. If ductile iron, short curls which break off on their own. Second method is the grinding wheel spark test. Grind a piece of known cast iron and steel. Then grind your bar and compare what you saw happening to the spark stream. |
| Ken Scharabok - Wednesday, 01/25/06 03:24:31 EST |
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Question, I Have A Vulcan # 10 Anvil In My Shop, Is The Illinois Iron & Bolt Co Still In Business Can You Give Me The History Of The Anvils This Anvil Seems To Be Pig Iron Base & A Tool Steel Top Layer & Horn . Thanks John Bednorz 612/708/9644 |
| John Bednorz - Wednesday, 01/25/06 06:02:39 EST |
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Guru, I Purchased A Vulcan #10 Anvil For My Blacksmith Shop. I Believe This Anvil Came From Illinois Iron & Bolt Co Carpentersville Illinois (From 1875/1969)It Is In Very Good Condition With A Laminated Tool Steel Top & Horn.Can You Tell Me If This Company Is Still In Business , How Can I Figure Out How Old It Really Is,Thanks Much John Bednorz. 612/708/9644 |
| John Bednorz - Wednesday, 01/25/06 08:01:38 EST |
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John Bednorz: To my knowledge II&B went out of business about 35 years ago. You can tell an age range by the anvil shape, style of logo and the placement of it as shown in Anvils in America by Richard Postman. If you can send me a photo clearly showing the logo side I should be able to time line it for you. Question: Where did you pick up the 1875-1969 dates? |
| Ken Scharabok - Wednesday, 01/25/06 08:51:03 EST |
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Dave, I live in S.E. PA as well. I have natural gas supplied by PECO and it is pretty darn cheap. My folks have oil, and they tell me it's a bit more of a pain to fill tanks and turns out to be a little more costly. They also have propane tanks for the garage heater and pool heater. Right now they're looking for a new supplier of propane becaus it's getting too pricey (I think they're renting their tanks too). A local hardware store just sold me a bottle of MAPP for $8.49!! I know the Depot sells it for $3.49, so who knows what the deal is when it comes to natural gas prices? By the way, thanks everyone for checking out my work. The wine rack photo didn't upload properly, I'll try it again today. |
| - Nippulini - Wednesday, 01/25/06 09:06:23 EST |
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Mr Guru, I Saw The Date On A Website Thanks Much For The Information. John Bednorz |
| John Bednorz - Wednesday, 01/25/06 09:25:19 EST |
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Mr Guru, I Need An Address To Send You A Photo Of The Vulcan Anvil Is It On This Web Site. ?? Thanks John Bednorz |
| John Bednorz - Wednesday, 01/25/06 09:31:33 EST |
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yesterday I lit my propane forge in my one car attached garage with the door closed (DUMB), while waiting for the forge to come temp and give a little heat to the garage, I went into the house to use the restroom and get a cup of coffee.(StUPID) I returned to my garage to the screeming of my carbon monoxide detector. IT HAD EXCEDED THE 1000/PMM LIMIT OF ITS DESPLAY IN LESS THAN 5 MIN. I had started my forge tuned to a reducing mixture in a cold ineffecent forge in a closed room. (deadly) Carbon monoxide or CO is a colorless, odorless and tasteless gas. Due to this fact, it is very hard to detect the presence of CO in your environment. It is, however, imperative that the CO levels in your shop are carefully monitored. Even at relatively low levels, CO is poisonous because it rapidly accumulates in the blood thereby depleting its ability to carry oxygen. Extreme cases of CO poisoning result in death. For healthy adults, CO becomes toxic when it reaches a level higher than 50 ppm (parts per million) with continuous exposure over an eight hour period.. When the level of CO becomes higher than that, a person will suffer from symptoms of exposure. Mild exposure over a few hours (a CO level between 70 ppm and 100 ppm) include flu-like symptoms such as headaches, sore eyes and a runny nose. Medium exposure (a CO level between 150 ppm to 300 ppm) will produce dizziness, drowsiness and vomiting. Extreme exposure (a CO level of 400 ppm and higher) will result in unconsciousness, brain damage and death. I know better than to do what I did, and I know that CO at that level can produce unconsciousness in less than 10 min. My life and possably the lives of my family were saved by a 10 year old carbon monoxide detector by NightHawk industries. It has a digital read out for monitoring low levels of exposure. COST less than $60. Nothing is as dagerous as my own stupidity In loving memory of PaPa Willson Guru please feel free to post this in the saftey notes. |
| Habu - Wednesday, 01/25/06 11:22:46 EST |
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John Bednorz; if you click on Ken's name at the bottom of his post you should get an e-mail window that will pop-up ready to go to him. Folks don't usually post their address do to the spammers address harvesters. Ken has taken over the post of fellow with Anvils in America right by the computer and I know I am sure gratefull that he puts the time in with it! Thomas |
| Thomas P - Wednesday, 01/25/06 11:36:33 EST |
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are you putting up any new stuff in the Iforge section? are you accepting any new stuff? |
| dan@modernblacksmith - Wednesday, 01/25/06 11:46:44 EST |
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My friend Phillip Baldwin makes Mokeme Gane for a large percentage of the jewelers in america who use it and dont make it themselves. He is a long way from just sticking it in a forge and doing it as it is not uncommon for him to have over $2000 worth of alloy in one heat. His website is www.shiningwave.com but most of his sales are thru www.reactivemetals.com So he has built a simple, relatively cheap system of precisely temperature controlling a gas forge for some of his work. Next time I see him I will ask the brand of his controller, but I am pretty sure that the advances in electronics have made a controller like this a lot easier and more affordable than it was even 10 years ago. He also uses salt baths, electric furnaces, and plain gas forges. All of which he built himself, so he really knows his stuff. So I know its possible to get a forge to maintain a pretty accurate temp. But I am not sure whether Mike is doing enough silicon bronze forging to make the investment worth it or not- only he can decide that. I know that when I did a big bronze job a few years ago, we used our gas forge to forge something like a ton and a half of naval and silicon bronze with only about 3 ruined pieces, out of something like 500. So for me, I would have to be doing bronze all day every day, with low paid production workers, before it would be worth it for me. |
| - Ries - Wednesday, 01/25/06 12:09:02 EST |
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Hey Guru! Where can i find plans to build a ring bender? (or tire bender, or slip roller - anything to help me crank out some smaller diameter - 18"-24" - rings). thanks! hunter |
| hunter dahlberg - Wednesday, 01/25/06 12:17:03 EST |
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Hunter- there are some plans in the metalworking dropbox- google it. or google rorty design- he sells plans for one type. The other thing to do is to look at some of the commercial models, and just copy them- google shop outfitters or boss benders or r&d hydraulics, all of them sell hand crank rolls. There also are some very cheap rolls on ebay right now- made in china, but depending on your material size, they might work- search for "brandsonsale". The problem most people come up against is that they assume they can roll really heavy stuff by hand, with no machined parts, which is usually not true. For 1/4" flat bar the easy way, a hand roll will work. For 1/2" x 3" the hard way, or 2" angle, you are gonna need power, mass, and weight, which equals money. So be realistic in what you expect a small, cheap, homemade tool to do, and you will be fine. |
| - Ries - Wednesday, 01/25/06 13:16:27 EST |
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dan@modernblacksmith: Unfortunately Guru is pretty well a one-man operation much in the style of the one-armed paper hanger. Each iForge takes much time to do, something he has little extra of. Now you can help perhaps fund an assistant: 1. Become a CSI member. $60 year I believe. That's only $5.00 per month or a tad or $1.25 a week. Way less than a single cup of coffee at a Starbucks. $1.00 cup at the local breakfast/lunch diner, but that does come with free refills. 2. Encourage folks selling items related to blacksmithing to become advertisers. You can get rates from the HOME page. When I put Poor Boy Blacksmith Tools on Anvilfire.com, my sales pretty well doubled very, very quickly and have held steady since. 3. If you live in or near TN, attend the Anvilfire.com Hammer-in/Conference at my farm near Waverly next April 21-23. Featured demonstrator will be BigBlu Powerhammers with one or two of their self-contained air hammers. Participants will be able to test drive them and I have some 1 1/2" scrap stock for those who want to perhaps forge out a hardy mandrel cone or such. There will also be a coal forge, anvil and tools available for impromptu demonstrators or lessons. If you want to learn to forge weld, there should be someone there willing to walk and talk you through the steps. Richard (The Anvil Man) Postman plans to attend. Private tool museum tour planned as well. We are strongly encouraging tailgate sellers. No registration fee. However, each particpant is requested to donate a nice item for an iron-in-the-hat type raffle. For more details just click on my name and request them. Net proceeds to go to the anvilfire.com general operating fund. |
| Ken Scharabok - Wednesday, 01/25/06 13:24:38 EST |
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What is a hall tree? (I thought thy kept them outside) Miles. I missed that part about the Henrob, but then I didn’t read it very close. It will melt its way thru various metals but it usually isn’t pretty. It didn’t sound like you were knocking the torch. When I bought it, around 1996 I believe, the guy demonstrating it had no illusions about its cutting ability but boy could he weld. It has a more precise flame and can do very controlled and pretty work. |
| manidemers.com - Wednesday, 01/25/06 14:01:00 EST |
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Hunter: if you have a chance to watch John Crouchet's flypress video (available from Pieh Tool Co, an advertiser on this site, about $35) you will see him make rings out of 1/2" or 5/8" square stock quite easily, to just about any diameter, and it can be done repeatedly. It will give you some good ideas and if you don't have or don't want to spring for a flypress the technique would work with a home made hydraulic press I think. I don't know about bending circles out of angle iron, that might be a tad trickier. |
| Ellen - Wednesday, 01/25/06 14:03:01 EST |
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Regarding temperature-controlled gas furnaces: Provided that you already have the forge and burner (atmospheric), this should be doable for $250. You can get an EXCELLENT Omega single-station temperature controller from eBay for about $60, most of the time. A high-pressure propane solenoid will probably run you another $60 from Grainger; I can't remember how much they are offhand, let's round up to $100. Visit eBay again for a thermocouple and some wire, another $60 -- and some plumbing parts for the idle/full valving arrangement to round it out to $250. Sorted. This is how we run all our glory holes and furnaces at Punahou, except the ones with forced air. Those also have an idle/full arrangement on the air supply, which is venturi-assisted compressed air. |
| T. Gold - Wednesday, 01/25/06 14:09:01 EST |
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ok, one more. (no, really this time :P) i have no money to actually BUY a forge, so i am making a scrap forge out of a 30" diameter grass catcher from an old riding mower. is 30" over doing it? or should i go bigger? i was also planning on attaching a blower to the bottom of it where the gears used to be. what diameter blower should i use, and at what setting? quick add: just to establich early, my REAL name isn't "Megil anveleth". that's only elvish for "Sword lover" (showing both that i love swords and LotR :P) for the record and for no confusion, my real name is Bob. |
| - Megil anveleth - Wednesday, 01/25/06 14:59:05 EST |
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Bob, Coal/Charcoal/Coke or Gas? I'll assume solid fuel; but since I don't know if the "grass catcher" is the shield around the blades or something hooked on the back I can't tell for sure. The table of the forge can be whatever size you want. The firepot has some size considerations. The bigger the firepot the bigger the working piece and that's in cross section usually---swordmaking takes a pretty small forge as you don't want to heat up more than you can hammer in a go. I have an old RR forge that is between 3' and 4' square IIRC with an old cast iron firepot that the previous owner burnt a chunk of RR rail in too accidently once. I hardly ever use it as it burns too much coal and is oversized for most of my work. If I get a 200# triphammer I expect it will get used more than some of the others. So how big is your firepot? As for the blower---how high is up? What size is your air openings? How big of work will you be doing? What fuel are you using? Will you be forge welding a lot? What is your working style like? I will say that a common blow dryer puts out too much air for many of the home built forges I have seen. Make sure that you have an ash dump and offset your blower from the hot zone a distance so you don't overheat it from radiated heat. Thomas |
| Thomas P - Wednesday, 01/25/06 16:12:24 EST |
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manidemers, A hall tree is a thingy that stands in the entrance hall or vestibule to a house, with hooks on it for hanging up coats and hats. Many also have a basket or other arrangement at the bottom to hold umbrellas, for those living in soggy climates. |
| vicopper - Wednesday, 01/25/06 16:23:36 EST |
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dan@modernblacksmith, The iForge demos have bee non hld for a cople years now due to time constraints. We are hoping to get them going again soon, though. They are a very popular and educational part of Anvilfire and need to be continued. You can check out the guidelines for doing a demo and put one together and send it to Jock Dempsey, the Guru. When he has the time, he'll put it together for viewing. Don't let the time delay keep you from doing one; I'm going to be working on Jock to get the iForge going again as soon as possible, and the more material we have to work with, the better the odds of getting it going again. Thanks for your interest, and please consider joining us in CSI. |
| vicopper - Wednesday, 01/25/06 16:28:04 EST |
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manidemers-- I forget just how long ago I queried the guy selling Henrob torches, but it's been quite a while. It was exasperating. All the major manufacturers, Harris, etc., are quite specific about what size material their equipment will weld and cut. From him and/or the Henrob manufacturer, nothing at all similar. The present contact is somewhat better, but there is still some considerable toe-dancing about what it will do with stainless, which as far as I can see is the whole raison d'etre (viz. the name of his website) for the thing, to avoid if possible springing for a plasma cutter. No free lunch, alas! |
| Miles Undercut - Wednesday, 01/25/06 16:50:36 EST |
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I plan to build a 9' wide, single piece, swing, motor actuated, driveway gate. Does anyone have a recomendation for guidance (a book?) to help design it - not what it looks like, but how it must be constructed? Like, it shouldn't sag, so how heavy do the structural members have to be? How much should I expect it to weigh in at? Can I use a caster to support one end? Steel caster or hard rubber caster? Etc. |
| Andy Morrison - Wednesday, 01/25/06 17:00:54 EST |
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I have now watched the fairly standard Henrod torch demonstration about four times either at the NY ABANA conference or Quad-States. Bearing in mind he is a professional at what he does, he sure does make it look easy - as long as the torch is set up properly and at the right oxygen pressure. Changing it over to welding takes him about a minute. I have cut 1" mild steel plate with it. The cut was no worse than a standard oxy/ace cutting torch. I cut mostly Freon bottles with it and use it for precision bending in the vise. Works absolutely great for my purposes. I'm using maybe 10% of its potential. One of its featured selling points is you leave the aceleyene set on 5 PSI for whatever you do with it. Only the oxygen is varied. |
| Ken Scharabok - Wednesday, 01/25/06 17:26:14 EST |
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the grass catcher is the blade guard. planning on using either coal or charcoal in it, since it can be bought fairly cheap. the firepot hasn't actually been developed yet, but i was planning on welding a guard on it before i actually used it. currently what i want to use it for is to straighten leaf springs. as i said, i haven't got much money, so i am making swords from leaf springs and i'm gonna sell them until i get more money. forgeweld, yes. that pesky hole in the spring needs filling, and just using a bolt (as the intructions i found say to) leaves a gap still from either the threads breaking off when griding, or the fact that one side of the hole is slightly bigger. i have a makeshift furnace that i've used once, and it works great for straightening without having to re-temper, but i need something to forgeweld the springs, and mild steel in. i'm very open to recommendations for firepot size. the opening now is about 3", but again i was planning on welding a metal plate on it to lower the diameter. i was thinking about 3/4" to 1". we have a lot of old equipment around here, so i have a small motor that i could attach a fan to that doesn't really spin real fast. work size: anywhere up to 56" springs, tho only in small portions. heating the whole thing give NO control, since you have no anchor point. (my dad and his work buddies tried that, and the spring hit one of the guys in the stomach) the grass catcher does have a... guess it would be called a grass re-director, and i can use that as an ash dump. i could also use some ideas on a tempering oven. could i make s/thing out of bricks and have a fire under it? again with the money prob. and for my pieces, my mom's cooking oven would hold them. that will be a prob after forgewelding, no? |
| - Megil anveleth - Wednesday, 01/25/06 18:48:16 EST |
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I certainly hope you are not using that site that talks about making great swords by cold straightening the springs. All their plans do not result in anything like was used during the swords as weapons time period. One of the biggest problem is getting proper distal taper---you do know that for nearly 1000 years the average weight of a using sword was about 1kg; this includes japanese blades as well as european ones. The "crowbars" you get from not putting in the proper tapers are "strong" but so is my anvil---it's not a sword though. The ashdump is a continuation of the air supply so that ashes/hot coals that slip through the air holes drop into the ash dump and can be discarded; not something off to the side you rake stuff into. Thomas |
| Thomas P - Wednesday, 01/25/06 19:04:28 EST |
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Megil: Go to to the NAVIGATE anvilfire box in the upper right and then scroll down to the list of advertisers. On the sites for Centaur Forge, Pieh Tool Co., Blacksmith's Depot or Blacksmith Supply, do a produce search on firepot. It will give you a general idea of what you need to build. For your application a long rectangular one would be better suited. At the place where I buy steel/scrap they have a large drop cutter with a capacity of, I think, 3/8". Were I to build one on my own I would make up a firepot out of cardboard and then have them cut the pieces to be welded together using cardboard pieces as templates. For a tuyere cut out a circle in the bottom and purchase an already made clinker breaker (see advertisers). For the elbow use say 3 1/2" OD pipe and fit a side air pipe to one side. Advertisers also sell cast iron tuyeres (ash grates). However, for about $175 plus S&H you can buy one designed for the purpose and ready to install. Sometimes it just doesn't make sense to try to reinvent the wheel. For a squirrel-cage blower, try www.surpluscenter.com. 100 cfm, with a control valve, should be more than you would need. Remember coal and charcoal forges worked off of either bellows or hand-cranked blowers for a very long time. Bear in mind the sword play you see in video games may have no relevance to real-life. |
| Ken Scharabok - Wednesday, 01/25/06 19:32:59 EST |
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Megil: Take a look at eBay listing #6248276980. Looks to be just what you need. As a price guide, a new similar one would run you about $175. You would have S&H on either. |
| Ken Scharabok - Wednesday, 01/25/06 19:55:01 EST |
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Snow and Nealley Axe: I ordered one of the "Our Best" 3# felling axes ($60 + shipping) and waited 3 months for nothing. I finally cancelled it. I went to Lowes, bought a $16 True Temper 3# felling axe, brought it home and stoned and stropped it until it will peel hair off of your arm, and tried it out on a downed hickory tree. Works fine. However, I do own a Granfors Forest Axe and it is a work of art. |
| quenchcrack - Wednesday, 01/25/06 20:47:36 EST |
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Nothing within the financial means of the average mortal can beat a plasma cutter. |
| manidemers.com - Wednesday, 01/25/06 22:00:30 EST |
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qc, Never buy an axe from snowandnealley.com. You can get them much cheaper at a garden supply or something on the internet. The double from sn.com is $86.00 and I found it for HALF that price from some site I found on Google. |
| - Tyler Murch - Wednesday, 01/25/06 22:33:11 EST |
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TGN: If You are going to use a lott of MAPP gas You might look into getting a larger refillable tank from a welding supply store. Airco was pushing it pretty hard some years ago, that company is presently AIRGAS and operating in Your area, but others probably have it allso. I looked for Your town on the map, couldn't find it, what major roads are You near? |
| Dave Boyer - Wednesday, 01/25/06 22:43:27 EST |
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Habu - and all smiths - ran across a short article today in the Wall Street Journal to the effect that carbon monoxide poisoning may have long term deleterious health effects even for those who successfully recover from it. Something we should all consider - those carbon monoxide detectors are looking better and better. As soon as I stop using a coke forge set up outside in front of the garage, I think it'll be time to install one. Quenchcrack - I haven't checked recently, but LL Beans axes used to be mostly Snow & Nealley Axes. They're a small operation (or were a small operation back in 1988 when I helped make a sales call to them) Good folks, good American made axes and garden tools - lots of low tech operations. Sorry to hear that their delivery was so slow. I have one of their camping axes - used it without problem on several canoe trips in Canada. |
| - Gavainh - Wednesday, 01/25/06 23:31:57 EST |
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Dave, the closest specialty welding shop is on Rt. 13 in Bensalem PA 19020. It is an AIRCO, used to be BOC Gases. A small bottle of MAPP will last me at least a month, and I run the micro forge on it at least 15 to 30 minutes each day. The town I live in is called Hulmeville, pop. 900. Not really important enough to get on any map I guess. The town is so small we have to share a zip code with a larger neighborhood Langhorne. My backyard backs up to the Neshaminy creek. Hope this helps you get a better fix on where I'm at. |
| - Nippulini - Thursday, 01/26/06 00:04:23 EST |
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TGN: I found it on another map. I may go to Metal Stock at some point. I am not that far away when I go to Fox Chase, unfortunatly I get down there every so often. |
| Dave Boyer - Thursday, 01/26/06 00:44:30 EST |
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MEGIL; If, by "grass catcher", you are referring to the body of a 18" to 24" regular ol' rotary lawnmower, bear in mind that many of them were made from a cast magnesium alloy. That could make for some exciting forging. You might consider a stamped steel one if you really want to use a mower deck. |
| 3dogs - Thursday, 01/26/06 02:34:48 EST |
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Brand of Redressed anvil: I couldn't find a brand and I don't trust my ablity to read sparks as it were. However, I was able to distinquish a logo. and a single number under the horn, probably the weight though. Its the outline of an oval, and it has what looks like a smith with his arm upraised as if he going to drop a hammer. Its hard to tell, this peticular anvil was painted a mint green with very thick paint. And on the front is just the number 10. I do know its the same metal al the way through, though. It is standard london pattern. I hope this helps, otherwise I'll have to post a picture of the sparks. Related question: If we/I eventually figue out what kind of metal this is, how would I make the surface hard again? |
| Anonymous - Thursday, 01/26/06 02:41:26 EST |
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Anonymous: You have a Vulcan from the Illinois Iron and Bolt Co. of Carpentersville, IL. #10 means 100 pounds, although it isn't unusual for marked weight to be off from scale weight a bit. It should have a cast iron body with a steel plate. I say it should have because there is increasing evidence II&B made some anvils out of semi-steel. In that case the top may have a high percentage of cast iron and not be repairable under ordinary welding techniques. Welding cast iron is a bit tricky and normally expensive. All you can do is to try running a test bead and see how it does. If it looks like a normal steel weld, then you may be good for go. If it has bubble pockets and knocks off easily, it has too high of a cast iron content to be worth while. (Some anvil manufacturers were so good at blending in top plates the seams cannot be seen.) On retempering an anvil, for all intents and purposes, forget it. You would have to bring the plate up to critical temperature (to where a magnet no longer sticks to it), then rapidly cool it under a strong jet of water. At a precise point you would need to pull it out, let residue heat from the body evenly heat the plate to the hardness desired and then very rapidly cool the entire anvil again. If you want to try this, please let us know as I, for one, would like to sit and watch the fun. You might still find a commercial concern who heat treats metal of this size, but the cost is likely to be far more than the anvil would be worth. Vulcan anvils were the bottom quality of the anvils made in volume in the U.S. According to Richard Postman, author of Anvils in America, they were never advertised as being blacksmithing anvils. Rather they were advertised for institutional (school), farm and workshop use (or perhaps a welding or general repair shop). While a London-pattern, they tended to be bulkly and fat under the heel. They were often carried as the low-end anvils in national mail order catalogs, such as Sears. I agree with a comment made recently by someone else Vulcans are a full notch below Fishers, even though both were made using the same basic techniques. If the top plate won't hold a welding bead well, my recommendation would be to pass it on to someone else and buy you a decent one. If you find a Vega in a scrapyard you might restore it back to running condition, but it would still be a Vega. Take a look at eBay listing #6246848592. Peter Wright which sold for about 80 cents a pound largely (IMHO) because it had a back corner of the top plate broken off. Once repaired (and I would have used stainless rod on it), it would be a nice user anvil again with a lot more years of life left. |
| Ken Scharabok - Thursday, 01/26/06 05:47:14 EST |
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Dave, Metal Stock Inc is incredible, too bad they have no website. Best way there is from I-95, take the Cottman exit, go straight and pass State Road. You'll see some warehouse underpass thing (like an enclosed catwalk), as soon as you go under the pass you'll see Keystone St., make a right, this is where Metal Stock is. Just go around the warehouse and park in the back. Tell 'em Nipps sent you and they'll give you strange looks. |
| - Nippulini - Thursday, 01/26/06 11:38:45 EST |
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Yeah, its one from a school so its probably Vulcan as you said. Okay, could I make a somewhat functional trade with my boss who does light cold farrier work, and is sick of pushing around a 140 anvil? |
| - Anonymous - Thursday, 01/26/06 11:41:01 EST |
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Damaged Anvils are often the beast deal for a new person starting. If you think about it what you are actually using on the anvil is the surface exactly opposite the hammer face. If you have a decent sized area that will clean up the rest of the anvil is really just the mass to push back against the hammer's blow and while a horn and hardy hole are handy; far better to spend extra money on a good postvise and use it to hold things to pinch hit for them. You will note that some cultures use simple rectangular anvils and there are even folks doing production work in the third world using a sledge hammer head for an anvil. There is nothing sacred about the london pattern for an anvil! I have bought and used two heavily damaged anvils one is missing the heel---broke off at the hardy hole; but has a nice hard flat face and a decent horn at less than 50 cents a pound it's a great anvil! The other dates to 1828 and is missing the heel and 80-90% of the shear steel face, only one small corner is still there and it's swayed as well---I use this one sometimes to try to show folks that the skill with the hammer is what is more important than the state of the anvil---it cost around 10 cents a pound and so was worth it just for the wrought iron in it! Engineering a gate: there have been several discussions on this in the past and I would suggest you use the search function to review them. Use of a caster would greatly reduce the hinge loading! Gavainh; I know you know that coke forges (and charcoal and coal) forges produce carbon monoxide as well; but the smoke generally causes us to use them with lots of ventilation. Since coke and charcoal tend to be a bit less smokey I urge everyone to remember and don't fall for the "it's too cold to work outside so I will fire up the cleaner burning fuel in a closed garage" trick---y'all live too far away for me to attend your estate auction anyway Thomas |
| Thomas P - Thursday, 01/26/06 11:55:08 EST |
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3dogs: more or less, but this is off of an old riding lawn mower we had sitting in our back yard for who knows how long. ken: thank you very much, i shall look into that. anything that gets the job done that's affordable will do great. yes, i know very well that the sword play on V-G's is NOT anything like real life. for cryin out loud, the movies have just as bad or worse. Thomas: well, it prolly is it. "Real Armour" is the company name. yes, i've done a lot of research and i know very well that these gigantic heavy things are nothing like the real weight of the originals. another prob is i doubt if they knew how to put chrome into the steel then, but until i get better stuff and start (eventually) making my OWN steel, they will have to do. yeah, i figured out the ash dump right after i replied to that.... but again: we have a LOT of old junk lying around here, includeing many grates, so i can scavage. i figured that out last night... watching the fireplace. i've thought up of a lot of ideas watchin the fire. :D |
| - Megil anveleth - Thursday, 01/26/06 12:31:17 EST |
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Dude, try Iforgeiron.com |
| - packrat - Thursday, 01/26/06 12:51:50 EST |
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All the big parts are there. The edges are just very chipped. But the anvil I use is unidentifiable, no markings what so ever, but it is in very good condition. But what I did worked on the Vulcan. I used 6011 arcwleding sticks, then built up a lot of welded metal around the egdes then ground it. To test it I hit it with a 2 1/2 pound hammer, right by the edges, and not so much as a hairline fracture. Maybe I did good, maybe just got lucky, or it not really working and its just fooling me. |
| Anonymous - Thursday, 01/26/06 13:19:05 EST |
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Megil/Dan - also check out Don Fogg's website. Just do a search on his name and then go over to the blade forum via the link. Thomas - you're right coke and coal also produce plent of carbon monoxide. Didn't think anyone would use them without either putting them outside, or installing a proper smoke stack/vent arrangement, so I didn't include them in the post. |
| - Gavainh - Thursday, 01/26/06 13:21:40 EST |
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Gavainh, I was just thinking of that old saying about "Just when you think you have something idiot proof someone comes up with an improved idiot". I know I have done a passle of things that make me wonder sometimes why I am still alive and kicking---but I hope some folks don't have to repeat my mistakes to learn from them. I miss Paw Paw; but I can say that he's still helping people out everytime someone *thinks* about what they are doing first. When I built my new smithy I put in two 10'x10' roll up doors on the ends the prevailing winds blow and while I may not open both I will always have the one next to the gas forge station open and if not the other one the man door to make sure there is cross ventilation. I used to open both of the roll up doors but when the wind started shifting the anvils I decided that perhaps one and the side door was sufficient. I have also been thinking of a dragon's breath vent set up... Thomas |
| Thomas P - Thursday, 01/26/06 14:32:13 EST |
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A friend of mine has an old cap &ball rifle that was handed down from his grandfather.He has no idea what caliber it is and is trying to find out if it is pre-civil war.Sure hope you can provide some info.The only thing printed on the gun itself is:W.E.ROBBINS and these letters or #,not sure which.GGJ either an i or a 1,an L or a1,c,i or 1 and another i or 1.Possibly the 1 or i could be a small case L.Sure wish you could help us out. Thank you and I will be waiting for a reply. |
| Jerry Martz - Thursday, 01/26/06 14:52:11 EST |
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Jerry Martz-- you doubtless have heard this caveat, too, but I have read or heard that such oldies sometimes have a ball stuck down inside the barrel with an old charge sitting behind it and that the powder does not cease being explosive. |
| Miles Undercut - Thursday, 01/26/06 15:30:13 EST |
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Miles and Jerry, the caveat about old muzzleloaders often being loaded is all too true. I have seen it many times, and it can be tested for with a ramrod, or plain wooden dowel of sufficient length. Insert it down the barrel and measure the distance between where the ramrod stopped and the hairline crack on the breech end which shows where the breechblock is inserted. Most of these breechblocks will be threaded into the barrel about 1/2", maybe less. Much more "occupied" space than that and you are dealing with a loaded weapon. As to coming up with an age on the caplock rifle that is difficult as there were so many makers; oftimes the barrel was made somewhere, the lock elsewhere, the furniture another place and perhaps someone just assembled the components and added a stock. Many of the lock marks were of gun and hardware dealers who put their own name on the lock. A lot of these components were made in Belgium. On the bottom of the barrel should be proof marks, and these can used by an expert to identify where and when it was proofed. Posted pictures would help in the identification. Some flintlocks were converted to caplock. Caplock rifles were in general use from the 1820's to 1870 or later. Perhaps a bit earlier in Europe. A cousin of my father had the rusted remains of an old Spanish muzzleloader which had been found in the California goldfields in the 1850's. It had been a curio in his family since that time. The barrel was bent, so my father's cousin clamped it in a vise and took his oxy torch to it to straighten it. Blew a hole in the wall of his shop. That thing had been loaded, and submerged for Lord knows how long, then a rustic family relic for a century, and still went off when heated. Back in the 30's and later there were several park service employees killed or severely injured with battlefield recovered civil war weapons. These can be safely unloaded in a couple of ways. If you will test it out and report back as to loaded/unloaded condition we can guide you through the steps to safely unload it. Good Luck! |
| Ellen - Thursday, 01/26/06 16:32:27 EST |
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Jerry Martz, where is the "W.E. Robbins" printed? On the barrel, the lockplate, or? What part of the country did it supposedly come from? In the days of Cap and Ball guns, most every little town had a gunsmith or five. It helps when trying to track down who made what if there's a region to narrow it down to. You may also try asking at www.americanlongrifles.com/forums . They have a section specifically for identifying antique guns. With all the small markings besides the name I wouldn't hold out much hope of it being pre-Civil War, but one never knows! The other warnings are good. All old muzzleloaders (and every other gun, for that matter) are to be treated as loaded until proven otherwise. |
| Alan-L - Thursday, 01/26/06 16:57:27 EST |
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Take a look at the 10-lb Trenton on eBay (#6248550545). Just seems off to me. In particular look at the last photograph of the bottom. It almost looks like a mold seam under the heel. |
| Ken Scharabok - Thursday, 01/26/06 17:51:50 EST |
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Don Fogg.... i've heard of him. i believe that i have his site bookmarked. i doubt if this grass catcher is cast magnesium. it has rust all over the inside of it. or would cast magnesium rust? |
| - Megil anveleth - Thursday, 01/26/06 19:43:37 EST |
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Frank Turley: Ever been to Las Cruces before? if ever you do a demonstration there, let me know! it's only 30 mintes away! |
| - Megil anveleth - Thursday, 01/26/06 19:47:29 EST |
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Megil; my parents live in Las Cruces and the next SWABA meeting is being held there; 10 am Sat Feb 4th. I plan to attend. Details can be found at the ABANA Chapter.com link in the navigate anvilfire menu look for South West Artist Blacksmiths. Try to make it if at all possible you may find a decent smith a whole lot closer even if not the paragon of smithing that Frank is. Since you are so close though give a lot of thought to taking Frank's class at his school in Santa Fe. Thomas |
| Thomas P - Thursday, 01/26/06 19:54:45 EST |
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yeah, i was thinkin of that, but there's one prob with it: i'm only 14. well, almost 15 tho. :D another one is that we have only cars that get less than 15mph, and one o fthem is currently getting a new transmission. altho, if i can, when i get my own car and the money i will. 10am..... well, if i can get my dad to let me go... altho no one else is really in to blacksmithing so i might have a bit of trouble getting a ride. my mom might tho, so she can understand what i m talking about. but again, if my dad will allow it. there is a blacksmith at the farm and rach museum, altho i don't know his name. i'm havin some trouble with the navigate menu. it isn;t showin up on my comp, and i can't figure out why. but i'll type it in the search menu and look for it. thanks for the info! Bob |
| - Megil anveleth - Thursday, 01/26/06 20:24:52 EST |
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Ken, The little anvil looks OK, except I can't quite make out the tradmark stamp on the side. Proportionately, the larger Trentons that I have seen had a thinner heel. Megil, I will not be at the Las Cruces SWABA meeting. I will be in the middle of a class and busy. The latch string is almost always out at my shop; just call first to make sure I'm home. |
| Frank Turley - Thursday, 01/26/06 20:33:39 EST |
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odd... none of the links in the search are working. i typed in the address too and that didn't work either. is the site down or s/thing? |
| - Megil anveleth - Thursday, 01/26/06 20:36:11 EST |
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Smithin Magician: Has anyone used this? For a single operator with no room for a power hammer, this seems like a pretty decent way of doing some hammering with better control than just a hammer alone. Any comments? |
| Jim Warren - Thursday, 01/26/06 20:54:36 EST |
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i just purchased a new anvil and would like a bit more of a radius on the corners, are there any tricks, or things that i should not do. it's my first anvil so im a bit nervous to have at it with a grinder. thanks steve |
| steve ash - Thursday, 01/26/06 21:50:18 EST |
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Steve, others will have more to say and better tips to offer but I personally wouldn't take any grinder to one of my anvils. If they need a little cleaning up or softening of sharp edges I would use a flap sander on an angle grinder. Likewise for crowning hammers and other tools. |
| Ellen - Thursday, 01/26/06 21:58:16 EST |
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Jim, I find the Smithin Magician to be a pretty handy tool, and well worth owning. I use mine a lot for necking down pipe for candle cups. Really, though, it works well for anything that requires the use of a struck top tool(like a butcher or hotcut). It also works great for fullering with matching top and bottom fullers. It doesn't really take the place of a power hammer in a shop, but it does make tools like hotcuts and fullers easier to use in a one man shop. And yes, it does give one better control when using struck tools. |
| Ian Wille - Thursday, 01/26/06 22:36:53 EST |
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Steve : As Ellen said a flap disk on an angle grinder will give a nice finish with good controll. If You havn't used one before practace on a chunk of scrap. Any radius at all will go a long way towards preventing chipping the edges. |
| Dave Boyer - Thursday, 01/26/06 23:02:34 EST |
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Short and simple question: How do you make Kaowool stick to the top of a box-like forge? |
| - Tyler Murch - Thursday, 01/26/06 23:03:17 EST |
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Also, anybody know of a good flux resistant brick for gas forge floors and where I can get it. If I am careful, I won't have to coat the kaowool to keep flux from eating it will I? |
| - Tyler Murch - Thursday, 01/26/06 23:10:43 EST |
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Ken I see what you are saying about the 10 lb Trenton. The bottom portion of the Trentons anvils made in the US were cast iron, the waist up were wrought iron with a sheer steel face plate. I would suspect the thicker heel is to prevent breakage on a smaller anvil. The 10 lb Hay Budden was also forge different than the larger ones. The Trenton is more evident. They also used the same stamps as the larger ones. That is why it is not in proportion to the anvil. The anvil is real. I suspect it will not sell anywhere near the price of the baby budden. I suspect for more than it is really worth to some nutty collector...BOG. |
| - Burtn Forge - Friday, 01/27/06 00:04:57 EST |
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I started blacksmithing in November 2005 as a hobby because I am physically unable to be a farrier like my brother and my dad. I currently have a small (70lb.) farrier anvil that I have been using and it has been a great start! My question(s) is this...does anyone have an opinion or advice or any feedback concerning a 260# Nimba anvil? What about the 120# Nimba? I ask these questions because this year's tax return is going to allow me to purchase a new anvil. Any genuine response is greatly appreciated! Shawn |
| Shawn Parker - Friday, 01/27/06 00:24:10 EST |
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Flux Resistant Brick Good hard foundry brick is very flux resistant. However, all refractory brick is eventually attacked by scale as well as flux. But the hard bricks hold up for a long while. It is the light weight refractory blanket, board and preforms that disolve like cotton candy when exposed to flux. |
| - guru - Friday, 01/27/06 00:28:17 EST |
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Smithing Magician This is a handy "third hand" but it has nothing to do with replacing a power hammer. Yes it will give you more control for very specific jobs. The genuine dievice is a nice kit but pricey. Most folks build their own versions. |
| - guru - Friday, 01/27/06 00:32:16 EST |
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Hola! From Costa Rica! Will get pages archived as soon as I find the necessary software. . . |
| - guru - Friday, 01/27/06 00:34:52 EST |
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Search is working but is slow if you use a general term like anvil. Be patient if you are on a slow connection. |
| - guru - Friday, 01/27/06 00:37:10 EST |
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Tyler - I have a box shaped forge from NC Tool. The Kaowool is held in place with sheet metal screws. I've had the forge for a couple of years and it is working just fine. |
| dief - Friday, 01/27/06 01:44:46 EST |
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I want to THANK EVERYBODY for their responses. We are sure it is NOT loaded.As far as the name W.E.ROBBINS,it is stamped right on the barrel. Thanks again. |
| Jerry Martz - Friday, 01/27/06 05:59:36 EST |
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Tyler, I tied the kaowool to the ceiling of my forge with nichrome wire from an old hair dryer. I think you can buy (or probably make) ceramic buttons designed to keep the wire from tearing through the kaowool, but mine seems to be working fine without. Of course, my wire is just to prevent sagging at the front of the forge; the ceiling rests on the kaowool "walls" at the sides and back |
| Mike B - Friday, 01/27/06 08:39:13 EST |
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What are the effects of forging techniques on the structure and volume of diffrent thicknesses of mild steel? |
| sarah - Friday, 01/27/06 08:46:24 EST |
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Sarah, We usually don't deal with homework assignments; is this one? I will quote from a small book, "The Blacksmith's Craft". "Metal forged at the correct temperature loses no strength". We "plastically deform" the metal. By hammering or pressing on a length of stock, its cross section is reduced and its length increased. We call this "drawing, drawing out, or drawing down". There is much more going on regarding grain structure, different alloys, and post forging heat treatments. A metallurgist should deal with these questions. |
| Frank Turley - Friday, 01/27/06 10:11:14 EST |
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Volume does not change save for losses from scaling. Cross section will decrease or increase depending on if you are drawing or upsetting. The size of the hammer and the thickness of the work affects where the metal is moved with the lighter hammers moving more on the surface and heavier getting movement deeper in the mass Tyler they make rigid Kaowool board that some folks use to top a rectangular gas forge setup. Megil, where are you in relation to Las Cruces. I plan to get in on Friday and visit with my folks and could probably stop by your place Saturday morning and give you a ride if your folks would allow it. I have a small PU with an extended cazb so there is room for your father to go too. IIRC there was a smith in Mesilla---Dragon Ash Forge if I remember right. A smith that is wintering in Las Cruces sometimes shows up at the LC fleamarket. And the smith that demo's at the F&R museum also used to sell at the LC farmer's market. Thomas |
| Thomas P - Friday, 01/27/06 12:17:15 EST |
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Dragon Ash Forge... LeRoy Simmons, who operated his forge in near Las Cruces for years, is now in Mountainair, New Mexico. |
| Frank Turley - Friday, 01/27/06 12:37:21 EST |
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Burtn Forge; I don't believe that the bottoms of trentons were cast iron rather they were cast steel. Ken---do you have your copy of AinA handy to address this? Thomas |
| Thomas P - Friday, 01/27/06 12:49:02 EST |
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Kaowool Roofs- Tyler-I recently finished building a box forge witha kaowool roof and did the following: I made the roof a box 4" deep and accordian-folded the kaowool so that I really had to compress it well to get it in the box. I am not using any mechanincal fasteners at this point. If I find that I do need some, I will run 2 rods 1/4 OD through the wool about 2" below the hot face and then anchor the rods to the shell of the roof. Patrick |
| Patrick Nowak - Friday, 01/27/06 13:10:21 EST |
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Sarah-Your question sounds like something coming from a college engineering course. If this is the case, I suggest you visit the engineering library on campus and look for books on forging. Try to find "Forging Practice" by Johnson or "Open Die Forging Technology" published by the Forging Industry Association (FIA). You may also want to check out volume 14 of the ASM Metals hanbook as well as a copy of "The Making, Shaping, and Treating of Steel" put out by United States Steel. Any good techinical library should have some or all of these titels. Your question was quite broad. If you can break it down a bit I may be able to off more assistance. Patrick |
| Patrick Nowak - Friday, 01/27/06 13:16:53 EST |
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I spoke to Richard Postman about the bottoms at one Quad-State. He said they were normally contracted out and they didn't particularly care what they were as far as content as long as they would weld properly to the top half. I agree, though, they would be cast steel (e.g., mild steel) rather than cast iron. He noted sometimes the base seems out of proportion to the top and speculated if they were out of a particular matching base they might use the one either above or below it, such as a 140 or 160 pound base for a 150 pound top, and then try to blend it in. He also noted for the really large anvils they likely forged out their own bases due to a low volume. Here they would be flat on the bottom. On the 10-lb Trenton on eBay, you can see the logo in a couple of the pictures, particularly if you use the enlarge feature. Looks too much like a typical diamond shape, rather than the flattened one Trenton used. To me, you can see mold seams ground off on the bottom. For that size of anvil, I would suspect they might have just forged it out as a one-piece body. For the work involved it would make more foundry sense to me just to do one out of cast steel and be done with it. Did CF&I even pour metal? I suspect it would have been subcontracted out. A bit like the A in front of some Trenton serial numbers. Were these subcontracted out to CA&F (Arm & Hammer) and the A represents that? WAG on my part, but again would make business sense to me if CF&I had more anvil order than they could fill and CA&F had excess capacity. Perhaps that's why the total CA&F produced as Arm & Hammers is low - they were making them for CF&I on the side. |
| Ken Scharabok - Friday, 01/27/06 13:29:36 EST |
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Hi Ken and Tom May very well be cast steel over cast iron. I really haven't tested the base to know for sure. You are both correct about the subcontracting. I agree Ken about what you typed above. You WAG of Arm Hammer may be possible. Though the fella that started it was a disgruntled anvil maker that was fired a couple of times from CF&I He went a couple blocks away to Start CA&I. Due to the location, similar company name and fallin out. I think it may very well be possible that they would not have had a subcontract relationship. Plus they were getting the bases for the later anvils at the same foundry as CF&I. I am just guessing they may have not gotten along. |
| - Burnt Forge - Friday, 01/27/06 13:57:29 EST |
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Forged Axes and Hatchets. I do not own a Granfors as they are costly, but very nice. I do own two Wetterlings forged in Sweden. They are about a third of the price as the Grandfors. They are excellent quality as well. |
| - Burnt Forge - Friday, 01/27/06 13:59:41 EST |
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Shawn- Nimba's are great anvils. I have the Centurion, which is the 260lb. anvil. I love it. Russel Jaque, who makes them, is a great blacksmith and a really nice guy to boot. They are based on an Italian anvil that Steve Bondi brought back from Toni Benneton's shop in Italy, in the 70's, but Russel improved the design a bit, and of course used a really cool type style to do the logo. There are those who prefer the all forged steel anvil, but since there are none available new right now, Cast Steel anvils like the Nimba are probably the best new anvils available. If you like the idea of buying american, and the shape, the Nimba is great. They are not as hard as some forged anvils get- you CAN ding it if you hit it hard enough. But they are plenty hard enough to use, and hammer control is something you have to learn anyway. Plus, since they are solid steel, they can always be sanded down a bit. I think Nimba's will hold their value as well- they are beautiful, american made, and in limited supply. |
| ries - Friday, 01/27/06 14:18:22 EST |
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Jerry, if you can carefully remove the barrel from the stock (lock comes off too), check for proof marks on the bottom of the barrel. Make a rubbing of them (tracing paper and soft pencil works well). Then armed with that information, check over on www.americanlongrifles.com and they may be able to put a date range on your piece for you. Regardless of whether it is pre-Civil war or not, you have a valuable piece of American history in your hands. Actually the odds are fairly high it is pre-Civil war as demand for caplock rifles was reduced after the war due to the suprlus of Springfields and Enfields available. Of course, if of small caliber (that would be nice to know as well), then it could be either pre or post as no one wanted to use a .58 Cal. rifle to take rabbits and squirrels. Generally speaking, anything less than .40 caliber would be considered a small game rifle, then and now. |
| Ellen - Friday, 01/27/06 14:48:11 EST |
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I also own the Centurion. I liked the idea of buying a quality product made locally (I live up in Washington). They cost, but you're paying for quality, and a living wage for the workers who make them. The biggest differentiator between the Nimba and the Euro-style I've seen is that the Nimba's horns come to much finer points, presumably because of better casting technique and steel alloy used. The Nimba's seem to be a little bit softer than the Euroanvils I 've used. I notice that the Nimba dings pretty easy, especially when compared to my old Arm&Hammer, which I've never been able to ding in the hard spots, but you can repair it by just peening the ding back. The good part of this is that if you snark up and hit an edge(which I do periodically) there's not any chipping. |
| - Tom T - Friday, 01/27/06 15:53:01 EST |
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Jerry Martz, I looked up Robbins in the Directory of American Toolmakers, and came up with Robbins & Lawrence Co., Windsor, Vermont, 1855 - 1861. They made machinist tools and gun and pistol making machinery. Might be a lead. |
| Frank Turley - Friday, 01/27/06 16:13:05 EST |
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hey, im looking for a technique. im working on some indoor pieces and just want to use a wax finish. ive wirebrushed the metal just to clean it up, but any welds or places where ive grinded of filed are going to have a bright silver finish. Any suggestions on how to get tones to even out? |
| andy - Friday, 01/27/06 16:35:36 EST |
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Andy, use gilders paste |
| Ron Childers - Friday, 01/27/06 16:49:59 EST |