Merry Christmas to ALL!
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- guru
- Monday, 12/25/06 09:29:40 EST
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Buzz Box Welder: Victoria, Generally speaking they are used almost exclusively for welding steel of various types including stainless steel using the proper electrodes. The advantage of electric arc welders is the wide range of available electrodes.
The question that is more significant is, "What can I make with a buzz box?" The answer is, almost anything. In the blacksmith shop you can build light and heavy benches, supports for vises and anvils, bending fixtures and machinery. In fact, with a grinder, a few files a drill press and an arc welder you can build almost any kind of machine.
Sculptural art work is often welded with a buzz box. This is because they are cheap and the artist's friend is cheap tools and materials. You can build finely finished or scrapyard art with a buzz box. Many modern craftsfolk use fine exposed welding in their work. Unless dog-do tecture is your goal then the welds should be first class.
The other thing you can do with a buzz box is LEARN TO WELD. The manipulation of the puddle with the arc is very similar in all electric welding and this is the least expensive way to learn.
A buzz box is a cheap and wonderful tool. Do not let anyone tell you otherwise.
What you cannot do with a buzz box is weld brass, copper or aluminium. For these you need other tools. For most non-ferrous work including jewelery and sculpture you need an oxy-acetylene outfit. This also has the advantage of a cutting torch for steel which when combined with an arc welder is an unbeatable productivity combination.
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- guru
- Sunday, 12/31/06 23:17:20 EST
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Rose Buds: Brian, the markings mean absolutely nothing except within the framework of a manufacturers part and size numbering system. There is NO STANDARD.
Generally rosebuds take a LOT of gas. For a small 1/2" diameter 6 port rosebud (the size that comes with most "standard" sets such as the Victor Journeyman set) you need a large two stage regulator.
Normally the oxygen pressure is fairly low as you need just enough to give a neutral flame. The acetylene should be from 10 to 15 (the max).
Popping back and blowing out is caused by too low of gas velocity. The gas must be leaving the tip at faster than the flame front velocity. Popping back can result in flame in the torch body which is very destructive and can burn out seals and mixers.
To prevent popping back you want to open a LITTLE oxygen then a LOT of fuel and then light. Crank up a big flame and then increase the oxygen to make a neutral flame. Even a small rosebud is like hanging onto a small rocket engine and you can actually FEEL the thrust. Do not be timid, the flame will pop back into the torch and then you will need to turn it off immediately! You cannot operate a rosebud gently.
Large rosebuds of 3/4" and larger generally cannot be run from a single full size welding cylinder. They require ganged cylinders and regulators in a manifolded system. The large diameter acetylene cylinder will run one of these but require a large regulator designed for 3/8" hoses. The best option for large rosebuds is a bulk propane tank.
Many acetylene tips are marked A for acetylene but just as many are unmarked. Those for propane and natural gas are marked NG. I am not sure why the same tips are used for these gases because there is a huge difference but that is how it works.
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- guru
- Sunday, 12/31/06 23:35:11 EST
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Brian K: I think You are running WAY TOO MUCH OXYGEN PRESSURE. Try using about 8 PSI on each. Ideally each valve would be open about a full turn with a neutral flame. This makes ajusting the flame less sensitive.
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Dave Boyer
- Sunday, 12/31/06 23:42:11 EST
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Rosebud: My cat hates the rosebud, and now goes away any time I uncoil the hoses on the torch sert.
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Dave Boyer
- Sunday, 12/31/06 23:45:51 EST
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brian kennedy-- The rosebud should run like any welding tip, equal acetylene and oxygen pressures, with a max around 7 or 8 for light duty equipment. NOT like a cutting torch with high oxygen pressure.
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Miles Undercut
- Monday, 01/01/07 00:16:04 EST
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A knife maker came to our guild meeting one time with an arbor press he used with his touchmark. There was a socket milled in the bottom of the ram to hold the stamp, and a set screw locked it in place. He put his work under the stamp and leaned on the lever.
Then he picked up a big hammer and whacked the top of the ram! I think everyone in the room cringed. But it did a good job with the stamp, and seemed to hold up pretty well under the blow. And arbor presses aren't exactly irreplacable.
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Mike B
- Monday, 01/01/07 09:27:56 EST
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Dave Boyer: Once heard a guy say his cat was also a blacksmith. One day it was curled up on the other side of the anvil. He dropped a piece of hot steel on it and it make a bolt for the door.
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Ken Scharabok
- Monday, 01/01/07 11:00:49 EST
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Hammering Arbor Presses: My big arbor press has a mushroomed ram that will not go all the way down. I suspect that whatever was being done with it was not successful. Before I set it up on a proper stand I will need to grind it back to shape then remove the ram to finish the job IF it will remove. . . abusing tools is abusing tools. Everyone has the right to use them as they see fit I guess. But many tools pass along to generation after generation of user and it is a shame to ruin something that under normal use will outlast you by many times.
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- guru
- Monday, 01/01/07 11:42:57 EST
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Ken, go to your room.
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quenchcrack
- Monday, 01/01/07 12:24:41 EST
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Guru, my best friend in college bought a new 914 in 1970 when we graduated. He still has it and it is in mint condition. He is also restoring a 1970(?) 911S. He has modified the engine slightly to put out over 350Hp so the power/weight ratio is fearsome. He said he has over $60K into it so far and is not done. This guy really needs a hobby. What could we do to our smithies with $60K?
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quenchcrack
- Monday, 01/01/07 12:31:20 EST
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Abused arbor press etc. We had a large compound action action arbor press in the tool room at the valve shop. Several times I saw a large sledge applied to the 4" square ram. It had a very large mushroom head. When I asked about the ram, the guys said that they had made that ram to replace a previous mushroomed ram, and could do so again. I guess they saw it as a consumable tool.
In the boiler pipe shop sat a forlorn large screw press. The wheel on top was perhaps 4', and had been lashed up to be motor driven, Both frame sides had huge brazed and scab plated repairs. It was cracked again and was scrappped not long after I noticed it. I would guess from the casting styling etc turn of the century or before.
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ptree
- Monday, 01/01/07 12:44:45 EST
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Ken, I like the blacksmith cat story, and may repeat it. You can come out of your room now. :)
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ptree
- Monday, 01/01/07 12:45:38 EST
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I am setting up an LG 100 and am having trouble with the foot pedal flexing. My foot pedal is a 3/8 by 1.5 ring. There is no slop in the pivot. Attached to the left side of the pedal there is in addition to the clutch linkage a shaft that acuates the brake. All is free but just the clutch return springs create too much resistance for the foot ring. Does anyone know how heavy the foot ring should be, or was? Also I am lubing the clutch blocks with 10/40 and am generating a fair amount of heat in an hours time. Not too hot to put your hand on but still can smell the hot oil. What should it be temperature wise?
Ben
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Ben
- Monday, 01/01/07 12:47:55 EST
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This looked the arbor press that goes on sale for $30 at Harbor Freight. Try to pass that on to the next generation, and they may pass it back (grin).
Actually, I do agree about abusing tools, even when they're cheap. On the other hand, he was using the press for the only purpose he bought it for, and at one hit per knife (for the touchmark) it will probably last a *long* time.
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Mike B
- Monday, 01/01/07 13:38:10 EST
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100# LG: The OEM treadle on mine was 1" to 1-1/8" solid round but that was an early model. Had nice forge welds to the flat bar at the back. The later on-edge treadles were a little flimsy. Yours sounds as heavy as the one on a 250# LG I had. They were not designed for after-market brakes. Bradleys used pipe so that it would be stiff and light weight. I would go with 1-1/4". I have also seen angle iron bent the hard way but it is not as stiff as it would seem.
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- guru
- Monday, 01/01/07 14:01:16 EST
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ok i got the "new edge of the anvil" and i says that each time you heat the metal it loses 1% its weight and it says thats a bad thing can you explain? cuz i would think the lighter the better???
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thomas mayhugh
- Monday, 01/01/07 17:25:38 EST
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1%,
I would say maybe an average of 1%.
It will depend alot on how hot the metal is heated how long its heated and the type of forge its heated in.
For example, Our blown gasser forge works a treat but we lose alot of steel as compared to a carefully managed coalfire.
Yes losing metal is usually a bad thing, If 1% goes away as scale at each heat. Ten heats loses 10% and so on. If the finished part needs to to be a given size, It needs to be appropriately larger piece to begin with which costs more for raw material and needs more fuel to heat the more material and so on.
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- Mike
- Monday, 01/01/07 18:30:51 EST
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o'ok i wasnt sure if the weght deminished or the metal thank you i understand now ^_^
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thomas mayhugh
- Monday, 01/01/07 19:08:02 EST
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Scale Loss Percentage: This has been reported to be as high as 2% but this value has been disputed by many. However, these values are the result of a soaking heat on an entire piece. In much of what we do in a small forge we do not let work scale that bad nor do we heat the entire piece at one time. You may heat a piece three times in a small forge but each heat may be in a different place. Many items are only heated enough to bend and often have no more scale after heating than when they started. Second heats may not produce as much total scale as the first if the part still has tight scale. So you may heat a piece many times in the process of producing a part but only lose 1 or 2% total. However, this does not diminish the fact that there ARE scale losses and they can be significant if one is not aware to the problem.
The worst thing that happens if you heat a piece too many times is a combination of decarburization and burning which leaves the metal weak and brittle. Thus it is good practice to make things in as few heats as possible. This is also where help in the form of strikers or a power hammer comes in to play. Although a single smith working alone may be capable of producing heavily forged work by using a sufficient number of heats the work may be metallurgically compromised compared to the same work being produced by many OR by a power hammer. It is common to take a large short billet and to shape it into a complex shape with details in one heat under a power hammer with the proper dies. The result has less scale and burning and is metallurgically superior than a piece repeatedly heated and worked by hand.
This truth flies directly in the face of those who preach a mysterious energy being imparted to steel that they have repeatedly worked over and over for many hours.
This is a case of not only is faster more efficient and cheaper it is also metallurgically better. Keep saving for that power hammer!
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- guru
- Monday, 01/01/07 20:33:19 EST
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Weight loss on Heating:
Under some circumstances 1% may be right, but it is not a universal truth. Actual loss depends on the composition of the steel, the atmosphere in the fire, and ther surface to volume ratio of the part among other things. Try to control the factors that contribute to the loss, and to make the most of each heat.
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- John Odom
- Monday, 01/01/07 21:03:02 EST
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I have to agree with the Guru. The less heats the less scaling/burning etc. I was the one who had to dispose of the scale from the forge shop that forged about 70,000,000# a year. We did all one heat forgeing, and most were only heated for a portion of the billet as were an upset shop mostly. We filled a 20 yard roll off to weight capacity about weekly. I have seen far too many roll off trucks with the bulldog barking at the sky! Ever see a tri-axle Mack stand up with 12 feet under the front axle from a severly overloaded hopper?
In production scale has to be considered. In production, with gas forges, scaling is far, far worse than induction, one of the reasons for changing. The induction does not produce near as bad a scale, holds the billet at temp for a shorter time, and has only a normal shop atmosphere. And we still filled those hoppers. Fine nasty stuff that turns to iron ore if it gets wet! We lined the hoppers with $50 dollar plastic liners to allow the brick to slide out when dumped. If it was forgotten, and the humidity was hig or ot rained it had to be jackhammered out.
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ptree
- Monday, 01/01/07 21:03:49 EST
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traditional japanese blacksmithing techniques? Yes, I'm gen-X. No, I don't have the slightest interest in swords, knives etc. However, I am interested in japanese cabinetry and it's associated hand-forged ironwork - latches, hinges etc plus the decorative work that makes japanese furniture so unique.
I was wondering if anybody could recommend some books, websites etc on this work? I have found several showing the finished product & the history of the craft, but nothing about the specific designs and techniques used.
thanks
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andrew
- Monday, 01/01/07 21:24:37 EST
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Andrew,
shibui.com is the site of a Santa Fe shop that deals in fine Japanese furniture and furnishings. The owners have put together a book, "Japanese Cabinetry The Art and Craft of Tansu". A friend in California has done both woodwork and ironwork in this genre. Where are you located?
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Frank Turley
- Monday, 01/01/07 23:30:23 EST
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Adelaide, Australia. I've seen the book & almost bought it, but it's definitely aimed at collectors. While it gives a great explanation of the style, it doesn't go far into the techniques used. I've also found a number of books on japanese woodworking/cabinetry, but these do not cover the incorporation of any kind of ironwork.
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andrew
- Tuesday, 01/02/07 00:24:53 EST
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I heard that 1045 and W1 is a good choice in steels for making your own dies for power hammers or a hydraulic forging press. Having trouble finding out where you can buy the steel in the block form, to build your own?
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D Charlesworth
- Tuesday, 01/02/07 00:35:37 EST
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Ptree, scale is a nice iron ore as it is: Magnetite just like the iron sands. Water and more O2 will just turn it into a different iron ore.
BTW I sweep the scale off the anvil into a can saving it up for a bloomery run. Some folks would allow that I'm cheap but they have not run a bloomery before, way too much work and charcoal for cheap metal!
Thomas
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Thomas Powers
- Tuesday, 01/02/07 01:41:06 EST
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Power Hammer Die Steel: You can make dies out of almost anything including mild steel if you want. Good hammer dies for large hammers are a top grade of 4150 or 4350. Small hammer dies are made from everything from 1040 (I don't recommend it) to H13 and S7.
When you use ANY tool steel from W1 to S7 the heat treatment is very critical for the best performance. A top grade piece of tool steel poorly heat treated is not as good as a much less expensive medium alloy steel heat treated properly.
Our online store carries A2 in stock large enough for a small power hammer (2" square). McMaster-Carr carries a wide range of steels in a variety of shapes.
Note that it is common to have to buy the steel you want in whatever form it is available in and then slab it out with a band saw. It is not unusual to start with a large diameter round and cut rectangles from it.
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- guru
- Tuesday, 01/02/07 02:00:30 EST
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Hardware: The best way to study many things is to obtain samples. But short of that there are many things in this world that there is no literature on and your only source is photos of hardware in use. From there on it is reverse engineering time.
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- guru
- Tuesday, 01/02/07 02:03:37 EST
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D Charlsworth: For hydraulic press forging dies that will see much use You should go with a hot work steel, preferably H13 or H21. H13 is a little tougher while H21 is a little more wear resistant. These steels stay hard at higher temps and resist heat checking better. Powerhammer dies generally don't get quite as hot as Hydraulic press dies.
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Dave Boyer
- Tuesday, 01/02/07 03:00:35 EST
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how do you draw out metal. i know this means lengthen it. i dont want to complety faltn it but how do i draw it out
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- i
- Tuesday, 01/02/07 10:31:11 EST
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Drawing Out:
By taking a red heat, using a cross peen hammer and placing the grooves perpendicular in the stock of the direction you want to go. Then, usually taking another heat, flipping your hammer over to the hammer side, begin flattening it down. Depending on how far you need to stetch it out and how much you want to flatten it will determine how many times you will need to repeat this process.
HTH
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taylorforge
- Tuesday, 01/02/07 11:13:24 EST
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Drawing Out:
Besides using the pien of your hammer you can also use the rounded edge of your anvil, the horn or a fuller (top, bottom or paired).
When using the pien of your hammer it needs to be smoothly rounded.
Many hammer piens are squarish and need rounding. It also helps to radius the side corners.
Smiths also draw directionally by using the corner of the face of the hammer.
When done with a fullering type surface the metal moves almost entirely in the direction perpendicular to the axis of the fuller.
How square you keep the fuller aligned and how equal the spacing of blows makes a difference in how straight and smooth the draw.
Different hammer faces act differently when forging.
Equally crowned or hemispherically dressed and flat faced hammers push the stock in all directions. Because there is more length in contact with the hammer long stock tends to move length wise more than width wise but the crowned hammer IS pushing it all directions.
Rocker or axially arced hammer faces act more like a fuller and move the metal more perpendicular to their axis. However, since they are closer to flat than a fuller they also spread the metal to the sides a small amount. However, they do move the stock a lot more in one direction than a crowned hammer.
The basic forging exercises are pointing, drawing and upsetting. It pays to practice these and to carefully think about what is happening as you do them. In time the metal will move easily in the direction you want it too without any thought.
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- guru
- Tuesday, 01/02/07 12:32:53 EST
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I only own a OA setup and can do most anything with it, including my JYH a couple of years ago. However, I've always been intrigued with arc welding and the discussion about the buzz box brings a question to mind. Assuming you own both OA and buzz box, which is cheaper to use for welding long runs as well as spots? Depending on the answers here I might have grounds to convince my wife I need to have both units ;-)!
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Thumper
- Tuesday, 01/02/07 13:18:47 EST
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Thumper, how much gas would you use for a 12" run ? How long would it take you plus prep time.
5 lb of 6011 1/8 costs less than $10.00. Just got a buzz box for a christmas gift. :) I still NEED a OA set. I really think you need to find or start a project that simply CAN'T be completed without one. good luck :)
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daveb
- Tuesday, 01/02/07 13:49:05 EST
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Don't forget auto spooling MIG type arc welding. In my opinion faster and cheaper. But SMAW lets you have more control... I liken it to driving an automatic vs. manual tranny.
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- Nippulini
- Tuesday, 01/02/07 13:55:47 EST
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Gas vs. Elec.: Never saw a cost comparison but that 12" 3/8" bead mentioned above could be arc welded in a minute or less and would take 20 minutes or so with gas. I would guess an 10:1 (or more) fuel cost difference.
OA is most efficient for cutting and arc welding is more efficient for building. OA is better for fine work that you would need TIG (much more expensive equipment) to do electrically. You need both.
MIG hardware is very expensive compared to a buzz box and the MIG consumables include tips, nozzels, wire AND gas. Average equipment life is much shorter with MIG. Where MIG excels is production fabrication of medium weight steel (it is difficult on very thin work and needs HD industrial harware for heavy work). But if you are not doing production work and just want to be the most efficient you can be for general work then a buzz box is the way to go.
Right now my MIG outfit has a rusted spool of wire which must be replaced and the CO2/Argon cylinder is probably empty. Mice also chewed up the unreinforced gas hose. A big pain to get back going if you do not keep it up all the time. The worse case with my old buzz box is I might have to dry out some rods OR run to the hardware store or auto supply and pick some up.
I love a MIG welder for what it is designed for. But a buzz box has a very long life without maintenance or extra consumable and does the job nearly as well.
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- guru
- Tuesday, 01/02/07 14:54:21 EST
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Since we're talking about the merits of buzz boxes, I've got a question along that line. I've read several times that a buzz box can be used for cutting when a DC rod is used with the welder set to run on AC. Has anyone ever tried this, and if so how well does it work?
I would expect that the degree of control would be nowhere near what you have using OA, but for quick rough cuts it might be an option. Any opinions?
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Steven Galonska
- Tuesday, 01/02/07 15:20:47 EST
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Steven, They make both solid arc gouging rods and hollow air-arc gouging rods for use with an AC buzz box. The result is as ugly or uglier than you can imagine. It works for cutting up scrap but not for fabrication. I've used any rod at hand and high amperage to cut sheet metal such as cutting up an auto body.
So. . it works but is VERY rough. I've never used it except when I was desperate.
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- guru
- Tuesday, 01/02/07 15:52:14 EST
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More on arc gouging.
In the welding business arc gouging is often used to make weld preps by chamfering edges or cutting out old welds. I suspect this is used primarily because the weldor has arc welding equipment on hand and not a full complement of equipment.
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- guru
- Tuesday, 01/02/07 15:55:38 EST
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Note that good reliable arc welders can often be found pretty cheaply used---my old lincoln tombstone was $40 and parts and accessories for it can be found new and used all over. (bought a new ground clamp for it at the fleamarket; the current one may outlast me but a brand new one for a couple of dollars was hard to resist.)
Now that I have a bandsaw and am working to get power to the shop my dreams of a treadle hammer to go along with my screwpress and triphammer are beginning to finalize...
(I've got the base, anvil and back beam waiting...)
Thomas
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Thomas P
- Tuesday, 01/02/07 16:56:12 EST
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Arc gouging IS nasty work. BUT it is fast, faster than the torch.I've only used it once myself and that was in fixing an arm on an 490D excavator...guy craked it like an egg by hitting too many trees and rocks with it. To add to what Guru said the hollow type is used with an air compressor. The rod heats it up and the compressed air blows chunks of metal out. Very fast, hot and nasty work, but useful when you have a lot of metal to be removed.
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taylorforge
- Tuesday, 01/02/07 18:16:46 EST
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Air-arc gouging is a little like an oxygen lance. The air helps the steel burn and creates more heat. The difference using air is that it is not self continuing, thus the arc is needed. I've not used an oxygen lance but they make tubes with coatings that act as flux and can be used to cut stone as well as cast iron.
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- guru
- Tuesday, 01/02/07 20:54:40 EST
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i, drawing out.
One thing that's sorta interesting about drawing out is that you are actually upsetting it in one dimension, then turning and upsetting it on the opposite dimension......or something like that, and upsetting in two directions actually draws it out.
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- Tyler Murch
- Tuesday, 01/02/07 21:13:36 EST
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Air arc gouging. I would take a small exception the the use of air arc in a welding shop because they may not have a full complement...
In the boiler shops, we used BIG air arc to gouge out welds that had X-rayed as bad. When you do a weld for a pressure vessel, it is a full penetration weld usually with a 55 degree prep. Think how much metal has to come out to get to the root of a weld in a 6" thick vessel wall. We used 3 or 4 Linchon motor generator sets linked to push a huge air arc. It used a 3/4" full port ball vale at the torch. We set up 1/4" plate shields about 30' downstream from the gouging to stop the flying molten metal. If it was closer the metal would eat it up from the velocity and heat. You have never heard a sound like that air arc in a huge high bay boiler shop. Very impressive at night. I had two safety glasses lens ruined from metal droplets hitting and melting in, and I was hundreds of feet away!
Than they ground the ragged edge and welded up the hole. And this was the industry practice. This shop had about every machine and weld and forge process you can imagine, but air arc served that purpose better.
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ptree
- Tuesday, 01/02/07 22:14:24 EST
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Buzbox cutting and AIR ARC: The process described By Ptree uses a carbon electrode and a jet of air that blows the melted material away [and all over the place] It is used for cutting gates off castings and cutting scrap cat iron as well. It is messy to do but in the hands of a skilled operator makes pretty nice weld preps. Smaller carbons, about 3/16 can be used with a typical 200 amp machine. The process using cutting solid electrodes and a smaller welder can be duplicated to a degree with a penetrating electrode like a 6010 or 6011 at about twice welding amperage. I have heard of soaking the electrodes in water to slow their melting rate, but by that time I had A/O and didn't need to try it. It is a messy as the others said, but it works.
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Dave Boyer
- Tuesday, 01/02/07 22:58:05 EST
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In defense of MIG welders: I have had much better luck with MIG welders than Jock has. However to get a really usefull one there is a MUCH greater financial investment than with stick. While I will always suggest to anybody who has no arc welding equipment at all to get an AC buzbox to start, it is an economicly based suggestion. I would rather drive an older auto and be able to weld with MIG than drive a slightly newer car and weld everything with stick. ESPECIALLY ALUMINUM. Yes You can weld aluminun with stick, but only with DC [and I don't recommend it, but have done it]. The 250 Amp @ 40% light industrial MIG machines will handle most of what us folks do. With the addition of a spool gun they will weld aluminum fast and easy.
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Dave Boyer
- Tuesday, 01/02/07 23:12:56 EST
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Tyler,
You're probably thinking of side spread, which is not really upsetting. When upsetting, you reduce length and increase section. When drawing, you increase length and reduce section.
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Frank Turley
- Tuesday, 01/02/07 23:16:01 EST
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I know that Frank, but when you hit down on a bar, the blow causes the section you hit to become shorter and fatter/wider. In a way, it is upsetting.
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- Tyler Murch
- Tuesday, 01/02/07 23:27:05 EST
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Tyler, Show me. I'm from Missouri.
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Frank Turley
- Tuesday, 01/02/07 23:40:07 EST
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Dear Guru,
I want to weld some 3/8 stainless round. I have a buzz box and OC torch. My buddy with the MIG and TIG expects a bottle of Irish every time. I'm cheap and to long a drive home! Can I use what I have!
Thanks, Steve
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Steve Paullin
- Tuesday, 01/02/07 23:52:04 EST
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Steve, You can do it easily with SS rod. However, a pound or a minimum purchase MAY cost as much as a bottle of Scotch.
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- guru
- Tuesday, 01/02/07 23:57:52 EST
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Tyler, upsetting makes more compact mass while spreading even though it makes a larger diameter is making a less compact mass. You will lose this argument.
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- guru
- Tuesday, 01/02/07 23:59:17 EST
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To me, upsetting is making something shorter and thicker. If you hammer down on one side of a bar, you are making it shorter and thicker. When hammering down on the bar, the metal spreads evenly in all directions, that is why you have to then turn the bar 90 degrees and hammer on that side. You are taking away the spread that occured in that direction and adding to the spread that occured in the direction that makes the bar longer. That is what causes the bar to be drawn out.
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- Tyler Murch
- Wednesday, 01/03/07 00:28:48 EST
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Nope, incorrect use of terms. Upsetting makes thicker in all directions. You are flattening and then flattening again. .
All the action in drawing out is the opposite of upsetting.
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- guru
- Wednesday, 01/03/07 01:24:41 EST
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where on the net can i see examples of pioneer ,canadian if possible, iron work design indoor ornamental pieces for a log cabin? we want to create a log holder, pot hanger suspended from the ceiling and a shelf for over our stove
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cathygriggs
- Wednesday, 01/03/07 01:29:02 EST
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Steve P: Yes You can. If You have an AC machine You use the rods with the -16 suffix. -15 is DC only. The torch will be less satisfactory, don't bother. Use 308 rods for 302 to 308 material, 316 rods for 316 material, and 309 for carbon steel to SS. 347 is good for any 300 series [non magnetic] stainless. Check the repair rod section of a welding supplier for small packages. TSC farm stores and ACE Hardware probably have or can get small packages of rods too. As Jock points out, prepare to be ripped.
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Dave Boyer
- Wednesday, 01/03/07 01:29:50 EST
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Welding rod is also readily available on eBay. Even stainless at a decent price.
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Ken Scharabok
- Wednesday, 01/03/07 07:50:35 EST
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Cathy; good luck on your search---"Pioneer" and "Ornamantal" don't usually intersect much in my experience. You need a generation or so past Pioneer to start gussying stuff up.
Thomas
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Thomas P
- Wednesday, 01/03/07 11:28:34 EST
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Thanks Thomas for pointing out my inconsistency in design putting pioneer and ornamental in the same boat.
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cathy griggs
- Wednesday, 01/03/07 11:46:57 EST
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Cathy Griggs,
The closest thing to pioneer/ornamental would be some of the Pennsylvania German derived ironwork, q.v. Don Plummer, "Colonial Wrought Iron". The best reference is probably Albert Sonn, "Early American Wrought Iron", although the big book is getting pricey. Sometimes you can get images from eBay sales or search engines, if you type in the right Search words. For example, "sawtooth trammel" or "chain trammel" might turn up an adjustable pot hook image.
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Frank Turley
- Wednesday, 01/03/07 12:11:01 EST
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The Sonn book is available on CD for about twenty bucks, I believe. Check eBay. If you can 't find it, let me know and I'll get the link off my home computer tonight.
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vicopper
- Wednesday, 01/03/07 14:04:05 EST
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Steel Identification:
I was going through some of the boxes I cleaned out of my grandfather's garage a while back and came across a large box of tool blanks for a very large lathe. Some of them are as large as 3/4" sq. x 8" long. Since they are far larger than anything I can use in my lathe, I was thinking they might be good material for chisels or punches.
Most of them seem to be labeled "Crucible Rex 95". Does anybody have an idea what the composition of this steel might be?
Thanks.
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Steven Galonska
- Wednesday, 01/03/07 14:21:31 EST
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Books on CD and digital copies:
Please be aware of where you obtain digital copies of various books. Currently there is a large black market and pirate market for illegal copies of various references. This applies to more than just old references that have ben around. Michael Porter was very upset and disheartened to find his book on forges and burners was scanned and copies being distributed on pirate sites operating out of Russia. This kind of operation is impossible to stop much less get legal satisfaction from. He will probably never write another book again due to this experience.
When there is no financial incentive to write or publish then there will be no new books.
Copyrights on old works are not public domain unless they were published before 1926. This means that any work that is reproduced without the permission of the copyright holder or their heirs is an illegal copy. And just because you cannot easily find an author's heirs or the current copyright holder does not make it fair game.
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- guru
- Wednesday, 01/03/07 15:11:16 EST
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Just curious if someone could give me an estimate of how much propane a 3/4 burner would burn in an hour.
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- Boogerman
- Wednesday, 01/03/07 16:23:30 EST
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Aspirated? Blown? How big an orifice? At what pressure? How hot you running the forge
In general my forges running at a good clip burn about 1 gallon of propane per hour.
Thomas
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Thomas P
- Wednesday, 01/03/07 17:43:48 EST
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Crucible tool steel: Go Here: www.crucibleservice.com/datasheets/index.cfm
I did not see a Rex 95 but there is a Rex 45. The stamp on the steel may be a 4, not a 9. It is some pretty potent stuff.
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quenchcrack
- Wednesday, 01/03/07 18:15:32 EST
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I seem to remember the REX 45 from the valve shop days. I believe we used it for shave tools in the screw machines. Tuff service.
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ptree
- Wednesday, 01/03/07 18:58:12 EST
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I recently made a custom order hatchet for a customer. It was made of 5160 steel w/ a wrap - around - a - drift construction. Apparently I should have maybe normalized it after the forge weld and before the quench. It split along the forge weld seam perfectly so that it now has two parallel cutting edges 1/8" apart. I would really like to repair it by forge welding, I just want to get in and out with a minimum of hammering and I really need to get it evenly fluxed inside. Jim hrisoulas says he makes a saturate solution of borax boiled in water and uses it as a liquid soak pre - flux. Has anyone else tried this? Any other suggestions for this weld? Otherwise I would just use anhydrous..... Oh, and has anyone had trouble reaching welding heats in a venturi forge in extremely cold (10 Farenheit) weather. And, what the hell, how can I preheat the (atmospheric) blast on a reil type venturi burner?
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salem
- Wednesday, 01/03/07 19:07:14 EST
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I think I see where Tyler's coming from on this. Let's say you start with 4" of 1" round. You start upsetting it, and it gets shorter and thicker. You keep pounding on it. Eventually, it's 1/4" tall and 4" in diamater. At some point, you stopped upsetting and starting spreading (or flattening). But where?
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Mike B
- Wednesday, 01/03/07 20:07:26 EST
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Good point Mike. I was thinking of that as well, but was going to just drop the topic.....whoops.
Good point. It is still upsetting...in a way.
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- Tyler Murch
- Wednesday, 01/03/07 20:32:59 EST
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salem: I would try using a heat gun - like you strip paint with. Based on the potential fuel savings I've read can be derived through pre-heating the air, I wouldn't mind betting it would easily offset the electricity cost. Even if it didn't, I suspect it might be the difference between a marginal forge reaching welding-temp or not - so you could just use it when you want to weld.
Has anybody tried this? I'm still building my gas forge, but am really interested in pre-heat options that are easier to implement than recuperating exhaust gasses.
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andrew
- Wednesday, 01/03/07 21:01:09 EST
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just to be clear, I'm talking about feeding pre-heated air into the back of your burner. I think it would work well on a side-burner. On a reil-type burner it would heat the propane injector. While it's good to burn pre-heated propane, I think hot pipework is not so good. I'd limit it to short bursts & keep an eye on the temperature of the fittings.
WARNING: You may blow up your entire county using this technique. Try it at your own risk.
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andrew
- Wednesday, 01/03/07 21:10:17 EST
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Andrew, I don't thick you will save much fuel by preheating the combustion air with a heat gun. Energy wise it is pretty nuetral as it take a fixed amount of BTU's to raise the air temp. The reason for recuperative preheating is that the amount of energy in the exhaust is high, and once in the exhaust no longer contributes to efficiency unles you recoup some energy by doing something like preheating combustion air.
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ptree
- Wednesday, 01/03/07 21:29:39 EST
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Steven Galonska: The toolbits are most likely high speed steel of one sort or another. If You are going to make "struck" tools [ones You hit with a hammer] You are going to have to ALWAYS remember to hit them with a soft hammer, as there is no really good reliable way to draw back the end You hit. You may be able to use some of them in a smaller lathe by holding them directly in the toolpost rather than in a toolholder. In any case You have a good supply of already hardened blanks for making tools.
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Dave Boyer
- Wednesday, 01/03/07 21:44:57 EST
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Burning a pound of propane per hour creates about 6000 watts of heat. I think my one-burner forge burns a few times that when cranked up to welding heat. Say 20,000 watts. A 1500 watt heat gun isn't going to make a huge temperature increase, but I guess it could make the difference between welding and not welding.
The problem I see is that blow a heat gun at the burner inlet is going to increase air flow. Unless you have some way to add more gas, you'll end up with an oxidizing atmosphere.
Also, a large amount of heat loss from a forge is due to th need to heat the intake air (that's why you're trying to preheat the air, of course). Even though the air from the heat gun is hot, it's a lot cooler than the inside of the forge. So if you're adding more air than is necessary to burn the gas you're introducing, you may cool the forge rather than heating it more. You might be figure out how to position the heat gun so that it heats the intake air without blowing more into the burner, but it would be tricky.
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Mike B
- Wednesday, 01/03/07 21:51:42 EST
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I'm sure this has been asked before but here goes. IS there a simple method of resurfacing the face of an anvil? I have recently acquired a servicable unit but the face is quite dimpled but relatively flat. I would prefer a smoother working area. Thanks.
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TWEAVER
- Wednesday, 01/03/07 22:29:05 EST
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I thought the aim or preheating was to improve the efficiency of the burn rather than simply pushing more heat energy directly into the forge - ie extract more energy from the fuel. Anyway, I guess it's an easy one to test.
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andrew
- Wednesday, 01/03/07 23:13:54 EST
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TWEAVER: A woodworking belt sander will do a nice job, clean out all the sawdust and get some of the blue zircona belts. Start out with coarser ones, about 40 grit and work up till Your happy.
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Dave Boyer
- Thursday, 01/04/07 01:13:12 EST
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Anvil surfaces: Sanding and light grinding is the way to go on an anvil face even if it results in a not perfectly flat surface. Severe divots can be worked around and are best left alone rather than welding to hardened tool steel and making hard and soft places that will end up wearing oddly and being as bad or worse than the original divot.
Machining and heavy grinding is NOT recommended. Folks often do this to dress out sway or chipped edges and end up with too thin a face or a soft anvil (the hardness drops of drastically with depth). The result is a ruined anvil.
So just dress as little as possible and then USE they anvil.
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- guru
- Thursday, 01/04/07 02:07:01 EST
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Re-forge welding alloy steel: Salem, the choice of an alloy steel for this design was not a good starting point. With forging heat you lose carbon and create a weaker interface which also has the problem of hard to dissolve non ferrous oxides in the joint. The old wrap around designs were from the wrought iron era where tools were steeled and the body weld was similar to the rest of the metal. In your case, instead of a solid steel edge you have the weak decarburized metal exactly at the edge. . .
To repair this I would start by mechanically cleaning the surface with sand paper if possible. Soaking in a descaller (either acid OR alkaline) would get into the non-accessible areas. Then when you go to heating and fluxing apply the flux as early as it will start to melt and flow on the surfaces. You may want a stronger flux with some flourite powder in it.
Cold Weather Forging: This has great effect on your forge temperature and I have known people to not be able to achieve a decent forge welding heat. A friend of mine built a recuperative heater for his coal forge so that he could get a welding heat with low air flow.
Preheating the incoming air in a forge can raise the forge temperature by roughly the difference between ambient heat and the preheat temperature in a marginal forge. Preheating the air is like heating ANY air. As suggested a hot air gun will provide hot air and there are fans made with internal heaters that would do the job.
In an atmospheric burner system you probably do not want forced air (unless there is a burner design problem). So what you do is build a hot air plennum across the intakes and leave the plennum open so that it is at atmospheric pressure. Air can be directly or indirectly heated in the plennum. This can be done with exhaust gases. Anything you do ends up requiring a lot of duct work even if the forge was designed for it.
Often letting the forge preheat for a LONG time helps get that little extra you might need. . .
DO NOT try to preheat the incoming fuel.
I've built atmospheric forges for simplicity but I prefer a blown burner. There are far too many advantages. . .
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- guru
- Thursday, 01/04/07 02:32:02 EST
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This is a rather technical bladesmithing question. I am getting ready to attempt a medieval longsword, but am having trouble figuring out the blade geometry. Specifically, how is the tang-to-blade transition accomplished on a blade without a riccasso? I have never seen a riccasso on this type of sword; the sharpened edge apparently extends all to way to the crossguard. If the cross section of the blade is a flattened diamond, and the cross section of the tang is rectangular, this would seem to present a problem. Thanks for any info.
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Hunter Goldberg
- Thursday, 01/04/07 02:56:58 EST
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Andrew: There are also other options you can look at, such as increasing the thickness of the insulation or internally coating with something like ITC. Also a significant difference can be made in decreasing the size of the opening.
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Ken Scharabok
- Thursday, 01/04/07 05:25:01 EST
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Transitions: Hunter, These type of things are done either very poorly or very well. Among other things most good hand forged blades have a "distal" taper. That means they taper when looking at them from the top. This is often not a straight line transition but a curve that is more progressive at the guard. Done well it should not be an obvious change. This gives you enough thickness for two things:
1) Flattening of the tang without great loss of strength
2) Room for a significant tang radius.
The error many blade makers make and many have trouble visualizing anything else is a square cornered tang. This is very bad design and can result in breaks or the least constant loosening of the guard.
When viewed from the side the tang should taper to where it almost breaks through the grip. The transition into the blade should have as large of radii as possible (1/2" or greater is good). On a diamond shaped blade there may be a short square step for the thickness of the blade that only reduces the width of the blade by about 30%. Even these shoulders should have significant radii. So you have four partial shoulders at the corners of the diamond that do not reduce the strength of the tang significantly. With a carefully fitted guard these disappear and the guard creates a clean shoulder for the grip. Lots of careful filing and fitting of parts.
There are other ways to approach this without a riccasso. The blade may have a triangular shaped flat on both sides at the guard making a rectangular section of about half the width of the blade. This increases the angle of the blade taper for a short distance but keeps the general straight lines of the blade.
You can also cut and fit out of a pure diamond section but it must be done delicately and it is not as strong as the above methods.
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- guru
- Thursday, 01/04/07 09:45:53 EST
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Shoulder Note: When I drew the above I drew sharp corners at the pommel shoulder. These are a drawing convention when drawing shoulders that should not be followed in real life. The problem is that in real life it is also easier to make square shoulders just as it is to draw them.
Leaving a fillet radius is tricky because it requires LEAVING material, never taking off more. Once it is taken off it is too late. Then when fitting the guard you are not making just a snug fitting rectangular hole. You are making a hole with matching radii. Same for the grip.
All this makes doing the job wrong very attractive.
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- guru
- Thursday, 01/04/07 10:14:41 EST
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Fitting Note: These delicate fits are one reason I recommend the inexperiance to do wood modeling of blades and blade parts. The same can also be done in non-ferrous or mild steel just for practice. It is much less expensive to make a mistake on a practice piece than one that has many hours of labor and possibly expensive materials in it.
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- guru
- Thursday, 01/04/07 10:26:16 EST
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i,am a begginer and i was make a knife for fun,but in indonesia not easy to get metal or steel to make knive. i usually make it from used bearing,automotive bearing.would you mind giving about metal sources?i am sorry about my poor english.thanks
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agustinus dino febrianta
- Thursday, 01/04/07 10:31:59 EST
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i just find this sites,would you mind to giving me information about steel or metal sources?i usually use a used bearing for my knife
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- agustinus dino febrianta
- Thursday, 01/04/07 10:37:23 EST
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agustinus, Generally springs, either coil (round) or leaf (flat) are good materials for knives. Springs vary from 60 to 95 points of carbon and are easier to heat treat than bearing steel. Many saw blades such as band saw and large circular saw blades are often made of good steel as well.
If you are looking for sellers of blade steels there are many on the web. However, most of these are based in the U.S. and I do not know which ones would ship internationally.
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- guru
- Thursday, 01/04/07 10:42:37 EST
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agustinus. Selemat Pagi! (about my limit of bahassan)
Car springs are generally suggested. In bearings while the balls/rollers are usually a high carbon steel on larger bearing the outer race will sometimes be case hardened steel and so will be fairly low in carbon except for the very surface of the bearing.
Note that the scale on auto springs is hard on files and so should be removed with a grinder or by soaking overnight in vinegar or by a *SHORT* immersion in a stronger acid and then washing and neutralizing.
I spent a month in Jakarta one on business and had a very nice time; feel free to e-mail me questions if you would like.
Thomas
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Thomas P
- Thursday, 01/04/07 11:43:19 EST
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Tyler and Mike B.,
Sorry I had to get in on this one. I suppose that it stops being upsetting and become spreading at the moment when the thickness becomes less than the diameter/ width. Of course this raises the question of when does length become thickness because you upset to shorten length and spread to thin out the thickness. So really it might all depend on the orientation of the workpiece to the hammer...there is a reason I only took one philosophy course in college.
-Aaron @ the SCF
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thesandycreekforge
- Thursday, 01/04/07 13:51:23 EST
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Hello,
Here is a dilema that will be coming up for me this spring. I have a customer that has a sunken patio that is seperated from the yard by a low retaining wall that has a gentle s-curve to it.
They want to further separate the patio from the yard and create and outdoor "room" by putting up a "screen" at the top of the wall. The design they want includes one inch box tubing for the frame. How do I create an s-curve in box tubing without collapsing or crinkling or crimping the walls of the tubing.
My Idea: My initial idea is to notch/slit the box tube through three sides at 1-2 inch intervals. This would leave one side wholly intact. Then I would bend the tube on a wooden frame, clamp it down, weld in the slits/notches and grind smooth. I am not sure whether it would be better to have the solid side on the inside or the outside of the curve, but my initial thought is to have the solid wall on the inside to avoid having to make large and awkward shaped notches.
Anybody ever done this? Any thoughts or observations that I have missed? I would try it out, but to get a good idea of the final curve of the product I need a fairly long piece, and I hate wasting a good chunk of steel when I can do some planning and info gathering first.
Thanks,
-Aaron @ the SCF
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thesandycreekforge
- Thursday, 01/04/07 14:35:42 EST
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If the curve is a gentle one then the tubing can be easily bent. Use wood forms for the bending. If you control the bending there should be no buckling or crinkling. I would allow for at LEAST one length for testing.
Note that the minimum bending radius is proportional to the wall thickness of the tubing. The thicker the wall the tighter the bend. Standard .050" wall 1" tubing can take a gentle bend of about a 5 foot radius with special compression compensation to get rid of extra material.
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- guru
- Thursday, 01/04/07 15:19:47 EST
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What is the best way to light a layout table? I have some problem seeing when I'm welding at night.
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mike hill
- Thursday, 01/04/07 16:10:15 EST
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I fell apon this site by accident
http://www.archive.org
and a search of blacksmith brings up several hits of early 1900's manuscripts and some fun images. All the books are scanned by national libraries. Searches on welding bring up even more fun...
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Bob D.
- Thursday, 01/04/07 16:21:22 EST
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Thanks for the advice, guys, the main reason that I use an atmospheric forge and can't use a heat gun to preheat blast is that I'm off the grid. I like the idea of using the forge exhaust because: a. it's already a byproduct of combustion and using it would be more efficient than relying on an added, separately fueled device, and b. it seems that not only is the exhaust really hot already but it would contain some gases that have further potential for cumbustion, thereby also improving the efficiency of the burn, as andrew says. Guru, you're right, not a good idea to have a long forge weld seam right along the cutting edge. I know that pattern welded blades usually have many layers crossing the edge, which is different in terms of strength and thought by some to provide a "saw toothed" cutting effect, but with the use of a good flux and correct welding technique, why would it be a bad idea to wrap 5160 back on itself? I've seen tomahawks and hatchets made of things like mosaic damascus in this way, and I've seen recommendations of this method in more than one smithing book. Froes are made this way all the time from leaf springs.... And I've thought about just setting a sheet metal box with an open top around the forge, keeping the heat away from the gas lines somehow.... I loved a forge I saw once, it was a blown ribbon (multi orifice) burner with a nautilus shaped intake manifold that wrapped around the outer shell of the forge. As soon as I get power I'm trying that!
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salem
- Thursday, 01/04/07 17:30:35 EST
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Mike, Lighting to work is like lighting to take photographs, it looks easier than it is. You want light from varied light sources preferably at a distance so that they do not create hard shadows.
Florescent light makes the most diffuse light and little heat. Two strips of 4 foot paired lights and several flood lights from the corners would probably be about right.
Good shop lighting is helped by light or white painted surfaces. There is a good reason most ceilings are painted white.
In my small machine shop that was about 15 x 15 feet with an 8 foot ceiling there were windows on three sides. For day and night use there were two strips of florescents with reflectors and four 100 watt bare incandescent bulbs. We supplemented that with a couple clamp on machine lights. That was back when my eyes were perfect. Today I would want several more lights.
For welding you should be able to read through the lens without a welding arc. Then you will be able to see while you strike the arc.
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- guru
- Thursday, 01/04/07 17:41:15 EST
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Salem, NEVER reintroduce exhaust gases back into the forge. You must use a heat exchanger (tube in tube) to heat the incoming fresh air. Yes, you can wrap a shell around the forge OR the exhaust and heat the intake air. Arranging the fuel lines takes planning. Note that a piece of sheet metal with an air gap on both sides will keep a LOT of heat off sensitive components.
Froes are normally made from mild steel. 90% of all old antique froes you see have broken welds. This is probably due to unskilled welding but they are not a good example.
I'm just saying that making an alloy steel ax by the wrapping method is not the best way. The weld zone WILL be significantly lower carbon and if true to the center it may become your edge. I would suggest making it a point to make one side shorter than the other so that the weld seam is not the edge. But the best way to make such things from modern alloy steels is to punch or slit and drift the eye.
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- guru
- Thursday, 01/04/07 17:57:03 EST
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ReRunning exhaust through a burner is a top way to optimize CO production! So you find a way to steal it's heat without letting any of it get sucked back in.
I've been thinking of putting in over large ports for the burners to enter the forge through and have a sheet metal plenum around the burner shaft with a chimney to duct the "back blast" away from the intake---which will also shield the fuel piping from excessive heat. I won't try to get all the waste heat but just a little more...Gotta scrounge some SS pipe for the burner shafts to make them last longer...
Thomas
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Thomas P
- Thursday, 01/04/07 18:31:38 EST
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thanks guru, Thomas, this is why it's probably a good idea to discuss things before I try them! That earlier post about sword tangs: I agree with the whole radiused shoulders at the tangs design. One thing I'm wondering is why it seems that the tangs on Japanese swords usually have square shoulders at the transition. They don't even have a buttcap / threaded tang arrangement to keep things snug! Just a bamboo pin in the hilt. They enjoy such a great reputation for battle worthy blades that I wonder how their swords don't often break at the guard area.... Or do they?
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salem
- Thursday, 01/04/07 18:58:37 EST
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hey y'all
i'm looking at the Blacksmiths depot catologe right now, looking at the 400# TFS anvil
what are y'alls opinion on it
thanks
Andrew B.
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- Andrew B.
- Thursday, 01/04/07 19:35:45 EST
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Salem remember that on a japanese sword they have an unusually thick cross sectiom and most of it is un-hardened. The width of the tang is not all that much less than that of ther blade too. Sometimes very little in the way of the shoulder for the habaki. If they get a severe impact they are probably more worried about the edge of the sword cracking and falling off---note the role of Ashi...
Thomas
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Thomas P
- Thursday, 01/04/07 20:55:11 EST
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Hi, I'm not a metal worker (other than soft for stained glass) but I have an everyday-trivia-question about ruining the temper on tempered steel. What does it take to ruin the temper on scissors or a knife? If there are too many ways to list, I'm most interested in what kind of heat situation(s) will ruin it. Could you also add whether the ruin will make the metal brittle or soft or what consequence it has? Thank you so much! Julie
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Julie
- Thursday, 01/04/07 20:58:36 EST
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Aaron: You could use one of Grant Sarver's tricks and use solid material for a tightly bent section welded in between tubing where the bends are less severe. Only the relatively small tight bend area is solid, so there is not a great increase in the weight of the whole project. And everybody will wonder how You made the tight bends.
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Dave Boyer
- Thursday, 01/04/07 21:13:43 EST
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Julie,
600ºF to 700ºF would most likely make the scissors or knife somewhat softer, assuming the tools are made of high carbon, plain carbon steel. Getting too much friction heat from a grinding wheel is a common way to ruin the original temper. It may help to use the Navigate Anvilfire menu on this page and click on FAQs. Scroll to Heat Treating.
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Frank Turley
- Thursday, 01/04/07 21:17:03 EST
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Julie: The heat to change the temper needs to be higher than the tempering temperature that the tool was tempered at. For a knife this might be as low as 400f but for scissors it would probably be above 500f. These temperatures will generally leave "temper colors" on the steel.This would be a faint pale yellow for 400f, going up through blue in the mid 500s. The steel will get softer from the temperature exposure EXCEPT that if heated enough [above red hot] and cooled fast enough [how fast depends on the type of steel] the steel will become brittle hard.
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Dave Boyer
- Thursday, 01/04/07 21:24:59 EST
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hiya,GURU!Learn how to build a fire yet? UH HU,I'm on line!so ILYAR (PATRICK) says howdee.
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iylar
- Thursday, 01/04/07 22:06:01 EST
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Hiya,GURU! Learn how to build a fire yet? Guess who's on line!Talk to ya soon.REGARDS,IYLAR (patrick[MASTER of all trades,JACK of NONE] McGhee).
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- iylar
- Thursday, 01/04/07 22:13:25 EST
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I have a large (6.5") post vise. On the Mounting plate it reads Indian Chief. I know that R. Postman does anvils, but does anyone '"do" post vices? I think they are beautiful old tools in their own right. Where can I find more info on this vice? Also, about the "soap quench," I heard from a smith that a certain kind of firefighting foam/ liquid can harden mild steel as well. True? And where can I get a pyrometer/ digital temp readout for my forge? Please and thank you....
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salem
- Thursday, 01/04/07 23:19:46 EST
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Salem, there are no definitive references on vises. Frank Turley knows quite a bit.
The problem is that of the millions of leg vises around there are only about a dozen styles and the vast majority of vises were unmarked. They were so similar in construction that they were sold by the pound without mention of the manufacturer. There was no serious hype or advertising in the vise business. So there is very little information to collect and not much to write. After a lot of research it would be a very thin book.
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- guru
- Friday, 01/05/07 01:09:16 EST
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Mr, McGeehee, welcome to the 21st century. Hope you didn't get whiplash in your jump from the 18th!
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- guru
- Friday, 01/05/07 01:10:28 EST
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The Indian Chief postvise was made by the Columbus (OH) Forge and Iron Company - the same one who made the Trenton brand anvil in the U.S. Vise might date from the late 1800s to the mid-1950s.
CF&I apparently purchased the rights to the Trenton anvil brand name. Had they not their anvils might have been the Buel (name of one of their owners), Indian Chief or their logo of FI within a large C within a circle.
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Ken Scharabok
- Friday, 01/05/07 06:16:46 EST
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Can you tell me the best way to remove mill scale from steel? Thanks.
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gmoore
- Friday, 01/05/07 07:03:24 EST
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Mike Hill,
My preference over my welding/layout table (mostly because they were at a steeply discounted price) are the hanging "work light" light fixtures that use the quartz bulbs. The ones I have are dual 250W bulb fixtures. Two fixtures makes 1000W. If I need any more than that I have two of the dual 500W work lights on a tripod. When all is said and done I can flood my welding/layout table with 3000W of quartz lighting...That's more than 4 times the watts of lighting in my whole house!
-Aaron @ the SCF
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thesandycreekforge
- Friday, 01/05/07 10:16:42 EST
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gmoore,
There are a variety of ways, none easy.
1) Power wire brushing. This is often the best small shop method but is high labor and has an element of risk as power wire brushes are dangerous.
2) Sand or grit blasting. This is the BEST method but is expensive and labor intensive. For large jobs it is usually best to have a sub contractor do it. You must be prepared to prime the clean surface immediately.
3) Tumbling or Vibratory Finishing. This is the best solution for the small shop that produces a lot of small work. However the machinery is limited to relatively small sizes. Vibratory finishers are easier to maintain than tumblers and will handle odd shaped pieces. They are rapidly replacing tumblers for most finishing processes.
4) Chemical etch. This has advantages and disadvantages. It is low labor but requires a large facility and then disposal of the killed acid.
5) Air needle descaler. This results in a very rough surface and is usually only used for weld preps or between weld passes.
Every situation is different and the "best" solution varies according to need.
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- guru
- Friday, 01/05/07 10:22:48 EST
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Guru,
Your post just made me think of something. You mention in number 3 about tumbling. I've done this to polish cartridge brass and it works amazingly well. Anybody have thoughts on building a tumbler using a 50 gallon drum (steel or plastic)? Thoughts on tumbling medium, construction of the tumbler, etc? I realize it would take a fairly decent sized motor and speed reduction system (maybe a gear motor?) For my shop, most things I make would fit in a 50 gallon drum, and it is probably safer than some of the other methods (especially the acid etching and power brushing. When not in use it could be broken down and stored. Any thoughts/ideas/random musings?
-Aaron @ the SCF
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thesandycreekforge
- Friday, 01/05/07 11:29:38 EST
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SCF: I would think an old 14 inch band saw would yield several useable parts.
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ML
- Friday, 01/05/07 12:10:03 EST
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Why not the drum and works from an old commercial dryer for a tumbler? Or an old cement mixer?
With a mechanical speed reduction system you will not need nealy as hefty motor as you might think as they increase torque as you decrease speed.
I have a geared down motor from a commercial roll up door I want to try and the local arroyo is chock full of "medium" with a variety of shapes and hardnesses.
Thomas
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Thomas P
- Friday, 01/05/07 12:19:11 EST
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I have a HF vibratory polisher. It uses dry medium only. I use 24 grit walnut shell. The manual that came with the machine also recommends corn cob, abrasives, etc. Then it even goes further to say experiment with more unconventional media that some shops use chopped up erasers, dry eggshell, etc. I haven't tried the erasers yet, but it makes sense... drag an eraser across a rough piece of steel... it WILL shine it up a bit. Your 55 gal drum idea sounds cool.
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- Nippulini
- Friday, 01/05/07 12:19:52 EST
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I have to install a forged railing onto granite steps. There will be 1/4" x 4" x 4" pads welded to the bottoms of the end posts. There need to be holes 1" in from the edge of the granite treads.
Any suggestions about drilling the holes and not splitting the corners off the granite.
Also any advice to what kind of hardware to use.
Thanks.
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Steven Bronstein
- Friday, 01/05/07 12:43:49 EST
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Thanks for the lighting info.
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Mike Hill
- Friday, 01/05/07 12:58:08 EST
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Aaron, I have some pictures of my homemade barrel tumbler made using a plastic barrel(20 gallon chemical barrel) tried to send them to you- mail was returned- email me and I will send to you-maybe you can steal some design ideas-
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ptpiddler
- Friday, 01/05/07 13:23:12 EST
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Sorry for a long-winded posting from a "newbie" .... but I'd really like to get your opinions on this safety issue.
I am going to be learning to do some Blacksmith work this year, and I am working at getting the right protective gear: Starting with protecting my vision. I have done a lot of surfing and researching on the web and in print, and have come up with the following summary of what I found. I'd like your comments on it, especially if you are an Opthamologist and a Blacksmith :-) (Gives a new meaning to "steel frames" ...)
The threats to the eyes from Blacksmithing are basically: Impact, UV, IR and Sodium Flare.
Impact:
Any powered equipment, such as a ginder, can generate some high speed threats to the eyes. (I read Paw-Paw's scary post on that, and I am going to treat these machines with the respect due an IED.) Hammering at the anvil and filing and such can generate somewhat lower speed impacts, so good Impact protection is a good idea. I plan to buy a good pair of impact safety glasses, with side shields, for machine work, and all non-forge/anvil activities. If they are perscription, I'll be more likely to wear them all the time I'm in the workshop.
UV:
It seems that UV is not much of a concern unless I was a glassworker working with borosilicate glass, or doing real welding with TIG or Oxy-Acetlyne gas. I'm not a glassworker, and in the case of welding, the traditional "robot head" welder's mask is the way to go for UV, IR and impacts too. Other than the above exceptions, Blacksmithing ordinary materials does not seem to have many UV threats. Most optical material blocks UV to some extent, so I don't think this is generally an issue for a Blacksmith who is wearing any sort of other eye protection.
Sodium Flare:
Depending on who I ask, Sodium Flare from the forge is either a great danger to the retinas, or just an annoyance. Either way, didymium glasses will block it, allow easier vision of the work, and don't block much other light. So it seems a pair of these puts something over my eyes (giving some Impact and UV protection) and blocks Sodium Flare. Besides, some of these really look cool ... ;-)
IR
This seems to be the thing that can do the most damage, long term. Damage from IR exposure is cumulative. Coal forges can get to 3500 F. To block IR it seems you need darker stuff (a number 3 or 5 lens) or stuff that absorbs the IR, warming in the process.
So, I think my best protection will be to get impact safety glasses for shop work, and a Pair of didymium glasses for the forge, with a clip-on, flip up #3 or #5 shade when looking into the forge fire. Croakies to keep them in place when sweating and hammering are a good add-on too.
Does this sound like sound reasoning and precautions to you folks ?
Tim C
Somerset NJ
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Tim C
- Friday, 01/05/07 13:34:40 EST
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The SCF - At the fab shop they used to de-burr (de-scale) small flame cut profiles in an old electric cement mixer, the 'medium' was all the old grinding dics from the angle grinders, although I susspect the metal parts hitting against each other did alot of the work !
When the mixer was running they lowered a large timber box, lined with insulation, over the top of it to keep the noise down a bit (it was noisy, even in a 20,000 sq ft heavy fabing bay!:)
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- John N
- Friday, 01/05/07 14:16:50 EST
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Impact: I learned why it is a bad idea to forge with anger. I made the mistake of taking my aggressions out on my work one day. I was P.O.'d at something, I forget now.. so I am wailing away with the hammer so hard that the toe of the face chipped and shot back into my hand, a nice chunk of steel had imbedded itself completely in my index finger. It happened so fast I didn't even know what happened. Didn't really hurt much, but removing the piece of shrapnel was one heck of an experience. People (not in the know) asked me why I wasn't wearing gloves. Well, I usually don't glove the hammering hand due to loss of feel for the hammering work. Ever since then I make sure that I am at peace and fully aware of my emotional state while working. If things get screwy or not working the way I want, I get steamed then take a breather. I kinda felt like I got what I deserved and will never give in to the dark side.
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- Nippulini
- Friday, 01/05/07 14:18:20 EST
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Tim C.
Sodium Flare: Normally there is no sodium flare from a coal or gas forge. There is a good bit from gas forges when running LOTS of flux as in making laminated steel but not at other times. Sodium flare is a glass worker's problem. Didyidium glasses are for sodium flare. Much cheaper glasses are suitable for forge usage.
UV: You get no UV from a forge. This is an arc welding problem requiring normal arc welding filters and full skin covering. Sun burn from arc welding is no different than from the sun and repeated exposures will likely cause skin cancer.
IR: This is a forge issue only when you stare into the center of a coal forge or work a lot in front of a gas forge. Ceramic chip forges are the worst. We sell #2 filter safety glasses for folks that worry about IR in the forge. For O-A use you start at #3 and work up depending on the size of the work and flame.
Other Issues: When using wire wheels and polishing setups or some stationary grinders a full face mask with safety glasses underneath is recommended. Flying work, shreading wheels and such require more than just simple eye protection. Something hitting you in the forehead, nose or mouth can do serious and expensive damage. Check out Paw-Paw's iForge safety demos.
Hearing protection is needed for some types of work in some shops and ocassionaly in ALL shops. I have been in shops where you had REAL pain from anvil noise. In others due to many variables it was not a problem. Some tools like angle grinders are very loud and harsh. Others just make a light pleasant hum.
Body Protection is needed the most when using a buffing or wire wheel. Work and wires fly off at high speed and can do serious damage. I wear my leather shop apron more when grinding than when doing anything else.
Respiratory Protection: Again is depends on the shop. Those working outdoors with infinite fresh air rarely need to wear a filter mask but this is not always true. When working indoors you cannot have enough forced ventilation. Although you rarely see it OSHA requires a spot exhaust fan at every welding station. When buffing or grinding the air can be full of fiberglass from reinforced wheels, cotton or other fibers from buffs, metal dust (most non-ferrous are toxic) and general swarf that is not good to breathe. The needs vary with the amount and type of airborn material. There is a difference between particulate and vapors or gases, each requiring a different type filter.
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- guru
- Friday, 01/05/07 15:56:11 EST
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TGN; I find forging rather meditative and if angry when I start I will be serene when I end---unless I goof up and then am upset with myself---my wife says it's good for "constipation of the soul" But my forging deals a lot with hammer control (having come into it from knifemaking) so when angry I don't express it with the hammer.
Thomas
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Thomas P
- Friday, 01/05/07 19:12:10 EST
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Thanks a bunch, Frank and Dave! I'm assuming both posts mean that quickly snipping the lit wick of a candle won't ruing the temper on our scissors. I had read a bit on case hardening and tempering, but couldn't discern a definitive answer from that bounty of information.
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Julie
- Friday, 01/05/07 19:51:30 EST
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Steve Bronstein,
Find a local stone mason and ask him as to the best method of anchoring a rail into granite..........better yet farm out that part of the job and let HIM take the responsibility .
Harley
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Harley
- Friday, 01/05/07 20:45:35 EST
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Tim C
The Guru has very good advice. I am a safety and environmental guy, and have been for quite a while. I have held that position in several large production forge shops, and a huge boiler fab shop. I will offer the following bits to supplement the Guru's very, very good suggestions.
When picking safety glasses and face shields, choose Polycarbonate lens.They have the best impact rating, and do not depend on a tempering operation to gain the impact resistance as do glass lens. Polycarbonate lens also tend to naturally block UV.
When welding, especially indoors, a N-95 or N-100 respirator is advised, if no oil mist is present. Change to a P-95 for Oil vapor, but the cost is much higher. Ventilation is the much better choice. The Guru states that local exhaust is required by OSHA. That is not precisely correct. OSHA says that you may not overexpose an employee, and that engineering controls are the first choice and only if engineering controls don't work should Personal Protection Equipment (PPE) be used. This means that proper ventalation, and this may include local exhaust, is the first choice. Often in large industrial fab shops doing large weldaments local exhaust is not a good choice, so one moves to general exhaust that pulls air from the shop as a whole, and if testing indicates, then PPE.
The suggestion for a leather apron is very valid. For welding, skin protection is needed, and several choices in fabrics are available. Chrome tanned leather is a traditional choice. It is expensive, hot, and may mildew in a moist shop. Well wearing and durable, good protection, if you wear it. There are some new aramid based fabrics on the market, but I have no experience with those. I do have experience with similar fabric for arc flash protection in electrical work. Cooler in the heat, lighter than leather, fair protection, and tends to be delicate compared to leather. There are flame resistant(FR) cottons that are traditionally green. Coolest, fair protection. not real durable,Cheapest of the bunch, and most likely of the bunch to be worn on a hot summer day. :)
Foot wear was not mentioned. A steel toe shoe or boot is a good idea. Knock a 4# hammer off the anvil onto you foot and you will be glad of that protection. Thick soles help to keep very hot things from melting thru the sole. You smell the burning rubber before you feel the heat. Meta-tarsel guards protect the area just behind the steel toe. This is a delicate bone structure and damages easily. The guards have the side benefits of keeping scale etc from burning you shoe laces, and perhaps the top of your foot, and also as Vicopper can attest these meta-tarsel boots are real chick magnets, being the sexyist shoes available:)
I wear hearing protection in my shop. I wear muffs that are a behind the neck style as I find these to be the most comfortable type. In the low profile version that I wear, they fit under a faceshield and a standard welding helmet.
In the end the best PPE is the PPE that is comfortable enough that you wear it every time you need it. Any other is a waste.
Good luck
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ptree
- Friday, 01/05/07 20:49:29 EST
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I would like to know about how to temper regular steel to make spring steel. I am 48 years old. I have a interest in making reproduction bear traps, as wall hangers, novelty items etc.. However I would like to know how the spring levers are tempered, from flat stock. thanking you in advance M.S.
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Mark Self
- Friday, 01/05/07 20:54:49 EST
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Polycarbonate lenses can not handle heat.
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- Burnt Forge
- Friday, 01/05/07 22:11:01 EST
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Mike one of the pro's will fill you in on tempering steel, but if you're trying to temper conventional mild steel (iron), I can fill you in....it won't work, period, not enough carbon. Now, here's my question, back to post vise's for a minute. I found one in a junk yard with a couple of missing part's that I'm refur |