Anvils and Shipping Weights:
One of the reasons that the ~70# farrier’s anvils were popular (and thus common) was that UPS would only handle up to 70# back then. And "back" was the problem; they had to limit the weight to what their delivery men could hand carry. Their "hundredweight" service is a relatively new innovation; I guess they had to train and supply all of their drivers with stevedores.
Warm, in the 60s, on the banks of the lower Potomac. More forging for the MarsCon art show in Williamsburg next weekend. ( www.marscon.net )
Visit your National Parks: www.nps.gov
Go viking: www.longshipco.org
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Bruce Blackistone (Atli)
- Tuesday, 01/16/07 00:04:50 EST
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Yes, UPS, FedEx and DHL all will take up to 150 pounds now. I guess they issued their drivers hand carts.
I have received anvils through UPS and DHL which weren't boxed or crated up. One had the shipping label taped to the top and covered with clear tape around the heel. Other the seller had put duct tape completely around the anvil and then put on the label. UPS has a $5.00 special handling surcharge for the service though.
When USPS came out with their Priority Mail flat rate boxes I redesigned a couple of my products so they would fit into one or the other of the boxes.
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Ken Scharabok (Poor Boy)
- Tuesday, 01/16/07 03:55:03 EST
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Rusty Speeds: JLW, The exact reduction is a factor of the spring dynamics. A long whippy spring must run slow and a heavy stiff spring can run fast. Often there is some R&D involved. However, we are speaking of the maximum operating speed. The hammer should be able to be run slower than full speed by riding the clutch.
There are two type of clutch, the belt type and the tire and wheel type. The belt type should be a flat belt but this requires special pulleys. Folks have built them with V-belts and varied the speed by tilting the motor. However, V-belts are made to NOT slip and they wear rapidly. That leaves the spare tire clutch like the NC-JYH. These work very well and are very controlable. They also give you your reduction easily.
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- guru
- Tuesday, 01/16/07 09:49:56 EST
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What are the benefits/disadvantages of quenching in a block of ice? I have my "beer" fridge in my cellar where my workshop is. I use the freezer for keeping ice packs for medicinal purposes and ice pops for the kiddies during summer. If ice quenching does have advantage, how? Should I use a solid giant block?
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- Nippulini
- Tuesday, 01/16/07 10:02:09 EST
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South Korea is a completely different story from China. Due to help from the US and technology exchange agreements South Korea has the most Nuclear power per capita of ANY nation AND they have built the last plants on their own as part of technology exchange with Westinghouse. Not only did they build the plants but also most of the components many of which the US no longer has the capacity to make. This includes the casting AND machining of the stainless steel pressure vessel that holds the reactor core for large 500 Megawatt and up units. Only France is second to South Korea in nuclear power.
As part of a staged process where they built their first Nuclear plants using U.S. parts, engineering and skilled labor and Korean labor for everything else as they trained Koreans for many of the jobs they progressed to a 100% content Korean plant. It took about 7 plants. During that time Three Mile Island occurred and we quit building Nuclear plants and sold off much of the specialized machinery required to build the large plants. It is also why many of the workers of Bechtel, the worlds largest general contractor of projects such as Nuclear plants are Korean.
THIS is the other half of the Nuclear story on the Korean Peninsula that you do not hear in the news and is not mentioned by our government when speaking publicly about issues of nuclear development in North Korea. While the South Koreans do not have nuclear weapons (by treaty) the North Koreans can SEE all those Nuclear plants and are sure South Korea MUST have Nuclear weapons.
This capacity also made them one of Asia's larger steel producers. . something necessary to build large ships.
How do you think the Koreans suddenly had the capacity and workforce capable of building automobiles for sale to the U.S.?
This has also created a gigantic disparity in the standards of living in the two countries. While the South has as high or higher standard of living as the U.S. the North has severe shortages of power, food, jobs. . .
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- guru
- Tuesday, 01/16/07 10:20:04 EST
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"...and are sure South Korea MUST have Nuclear weapons."
Everything makes DPRK paranoid. To reduce tension the U.S. abandoned bases near the DMZ and relocated them farther south. NPRK said it was proof U.S. had intentions to nuke them.
It isn't a government as much as a hero worship cult.
One of Former Deputy Sec. of Defense Rumsfeld's favorite photograph was a satellite one of both the north and south taken at night. South is largely lit up. The north only has a noticeable speck of light at the capital. Rest of country is almost completely black.
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Ken Scharabok (Poor Boy)
- Tuesday, 01/16/07 10:33:33 EST
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Ice Quench: Nip, generally this would be a bad practice. The only times I know that it is done is when very large pieces of steel are quenched and the water does not cool the block fast enough. This is a situation you are unlikely to come across in the one man blacksmith shop.
Cryogenic quenching is a completely different thing.
More Ice: An interesting use of ice in the shop has been for setting power hammer anvils in pits. Often there is not a crane large enough or enough overhead space. So the anvil pit is packed with crushed ice and the anvil rolled and slid into place. Then you just wait for the ice to melt. . .
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- guru
- Tuesday, 01/16/07 10:46:31 EST
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Platte River Forge
Josh at Big BLU Hammers says he did not receive mail from you and searched again when I asked.
On the 110 the die height is 36" and on the 155 the dies height is 34".
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- guru
- Tuesday, 01/16/07 10:48:47 EST
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It would also be a good idea to have clean water ice on hand for those "oops" situations where you may need to quench a hand.
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- Nippulini
- Tuesday, 01/16/07 11:24:57 EST
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China: The problem many companies are having doing business in China is that there is no loyalty and non-compete agreements, patents and copyrights mean nothing. If you give the Chinese the ability to make your product they will out sell you with product sold via other channels with the product YOU set them up to manufacture. Many company's greed is paid back by short term gains and long term losses.
And like Miles I have seen far too many cheap tools and machines that never worked that were labeled CHINA but were in fact made in Taiwan. . And I saw a lathe made in Brazil that there was no possible way to put a belt on it other than to let it rub on the housing. . . Bad products have been made almost everywhere.
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- guru
- Tuesday, 01/16/07 11:55:06 EST
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Hey guys, been while since I've checked in around here, I am still looking for an anvil. One I can shoe on, but also do some light blacksmithing on too. the only thin that has chanded is my price range. It is now $265- poss. $310. If anybody knows of some good ones, PPLLLEEEAASSEEE let me know. Thanks a lot in advance.
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- Andrew Marlin
- Tuesday, 01/16/07 12:16:33 EST
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Korea and autos.
When I was briefly in Costa Rica, I couldn't recognize most of the cars on the road. I found out that many were Korean (Hyundai & Kia?). I didn't see any pickups. I asked my student, Johan Cubillos, what if a guy drove up in a big American pickup. He said, "We would know he was rich."
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Frank Turley
- Tuesday, 01/16/07 12:37:02 EST
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The Daihatsu Terios we rent in Costa Rica is a nice little car that is popular world wide but not sold in the US. An illegal copy is manufactured in China called the Zotye 2008. Daihatsu of Japan like other manufacturers made the mistake of having the Terios for China made there. Production was just started when the Zotye 2008 came out. . .
The world market for small trucks is completely dominated by the Japanese. While Toyota is now #1 in US sales they are so far ahead in world wide sales that it is unbelievable. Meanwhile the US manufacturers make NO small trucks specifically for the world market where small and efficient are the rule. In fact, the U.S. automakers were the first to import small Japanese trucks instead of building their own. Perhaps they deserve to go out of business. . .
Of course if the Japanese get greedy and send their small truck manufacturing to China then it will be China dominating the world market.
In Central America they buy two types of farm tractors, Japanese and Chinese. The Chinese tractors are known to have a short engine life so anyone that can afford one buys Japanese. Where is the US in this? Another non-player. And THIS is in a region where they PREFER U.S. made products if they can get them. . .
While Congress and Bush worry about fighting a war for oil we are losing the global trade battle. . . simply by not being in the market.
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- guru
- Tuesday, 01/16/07 13:20:02 EST
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not to mention selling the war debt to china
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- vorpal
- Tuesday, 01/16/07 14:05:17 EST
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And when I was in Australia briefly, I saw that they have quite an auto assortment, most of them of small scale. They have large gatherings called ute musters, a ute being a utility vehicle, what we call a pickup. Their ute are smaller than the big U.S. pickups. Some have flat beds and some have low sides and low tailgates. At a muster, those gathered show off their utes. There can be judging: the best looking; the worst looking; the most dents; the most beat up; the most colorful; most "tricked out", etc. I don't think the U.S. is much into that market. GM may still have a financial interest in the Holden auto in Australia.
If you're interested, you can google Australian ute "IMAGES".
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Frank Turley
- Tuesday, 01/16/07 14:44:32 EST
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Andrew Marlin:
On the NAVAIAGE anvilfire drop-down find the one for ABANA Chapters. Find the group(s) in your general area and contact them. Often they have one or two members who dabble in used blacksmithing tools.
Continue to watch eBay. I am pretty sure there are one or two farrier anvils on their now. Also newly listed is a 120 LB Trenton or Hay-Budden (ACME) with half the front plate missing. If you can find someone to build it back up via arc welding likely it would suit your needs. Located in the San Antonio area and listed as buyer pick up or buyer makes all shipping arrangments. If you know someone with a UPS account they can arrange for UPS to pick it up and deliver it, with the costs charged to their account.
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Ken Scharabok (Poor Boy)
- Tuesday, 01/16/07 16:09:02 EST
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hey any of you all know anything about building a small 1 cylender engine or any websites for me to get information i guess you would have to machine most of it wouldnt you
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- newbiesmith
- Tuesday, 01/16/07 16:50:25 EST
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HOLDEN in Australia is 100% Gm.
And Ford has a pretty strong presence in Australia as well.
And the number 2 market for pickup trucks, worldwide, after Texas, is Thailand- Ford makes a LOT of pickups in Thailand. They have had a factory there since 1961. GM also sells a lot of pickups there- They also have a truck factory in Thailand.
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- Ries
- Tuesday, 01/16/07 16:52:46 EST
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I was also surprised to know that Kiwi is four wheeling in a Jeep. . . But when you look at the world's roads US manufactured vehicles are very slim. Even in mountainous Costa Rica you see full size American tractor trailers but they are surrounded by swarms of Japanese mini-trucks. Yes Ford and others have factories World Wide and Chrysler-Benz is trying to act like one one big happy family while many of its "American" made vehicles have Japanese (not German) engines. . .
Thai made trucks don't feed US workers. . .
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- guru
- Tuesday, 01/16/07 18:11:42 EST
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Hello y'all, I'm back again for another project of mine. Well, I recently tried making my own bow out of a piece of red oak. Well, it only pulled 45 pounds, plus one limb cracked. My new plan is to make a recurve bow out of a piece of steel. I've got leaf springs 1/4" thick, one of which I am going to cut in half and draw out. I have one major question: The over-all length of the bow is going to be from 45-50 inches, so and advice on how thick to make the limbs to get a 60 pound draw on it? Many thanks for any advice!
Rob
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- Rob
- Tuesday, 01/16/07 18:17:49 EST
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Engine Building: Newbie, Some of the machinist sites might have plans. Years ago there was an outfit that sold kits of parts, castings and plans to make steam engines and various machines. A small lathe like the old 6" Craftsman (Atlas) lathe was the minimum machinery needed. It helped to have a small mill or shaper but the kits COULD be made on a lathe and by hand.
Depending on the size of the engine there are a variety of skills needed. Most of the guys with small machinery start with aluminium castings that they make the patterns for and cast as well. Then they start machining. Those with larger machines often make parts from blocks of material doing all the machining on lathes and mills. A few engines have been designed to make most of the parts on a lathe.
Besides the machines you need a few precision measuring tools and whole batch of odd skills. It can be great fun.
Way, way back, in the early 1800's a teenage James Nasmyth made a working steam engine to power a light wagon or buggy. He made most of the parts from brass as brass casting is much easier than iron, machined the parts on a primitive foot powered lathe and hand worked the rest. Of course he was to become one of the great geniuses of the Industrial Revolution. On the other hand we have all his inventions to help us do the job today. . .
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- guru
- Tuesday, 01/16/07 18:26:20 EST
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Another interesting early engine was the Wright flyer engine. Made with a cast aluminum crankcase, and the remainder steel. Made completly ona lather and a drill press, in the bicycle shop by Charlie taylor, other than the casting. Made a whopping 16 Hp from 200 cubic inches until the heads begain to overheat, and then about 12 Hp.
If you are determined, and have a lathe and a drill press, I suspect a 1 cylinder would be doable, if you can use the equipment. If you can scrounge, a lot of fine parts are available off the shelf such as a piston and cylinder off an air cooled VW, modify the head, use the rod. Then all that is left is the case, crank, cam and ignition etc:)
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ptree
- Tuesday, 01/16/07 19:10:28 EST
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Daihatsu Terios: I looked this one up when you mentioned it a while back. I want one. I am annoyed that I can't buy one in the US. It looks to be just about ideal for folks like me who have to drive significant distances (500+ miles/week) that end in miles of dirt road. My current Subaru probably handles better, but the ground clearance is marginal and the Daihatsu gets better mileage.
Tractors: John Deere has a program where they check out trade-in tractors and export them to South America. Of course, most of the trade-ins John Deere is getting these days are a tad large for most third world farms. In my neighborhood my 54hp tractor is one of the smallest still in regular use. Of course, when you buy an American brand tractor nowadays, there is no telling were it was actually made. (Short of looking at the ID plate.) IIRC Deere sells tractors made in Japan, Italy, France and England as well as the US. Tractor companies were some of the first to go multinational.
BTW: Jymm Hoffman is having nice little 105# "colonial" style anvils cast in H-13 steel. Heat-treated to Rc52 IIRC. It looks like a great anvil for demoing. . . Sort of the antithesis of the farrier's anvil. Not much horn or heel, but a nice solidly supported face.
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John Lowther
- Tuesday, 01/16/07 19:34:27 EST
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i have a question about tongs. i jsut got my new tongs from Kayne and son, i got the 1/4" v bit 16" what steel is it made of it feels very springy. also if i were gonig to hold something larger than 1/4" in them could i heat them up and ajust them without harming the paint of temper on them?
thanks y'all
Andrew B.
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- andrew B.
- Tuesday, 01/16/07 20:06:53 EST
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Sir, I recently found a Stewart Blast Furnace, size 28, type-oven, serial # 12090, fuel MFD. The unit needs some repair on the sheet metal around the cast components. I want to use it and do NOT know what "MFD" fuel is. The unit has a supplimental electric blower that feeds into the main fuel line. Is this propane, natural gas or neither? He unit is intact with the original cast stand, gas intake manifolds and blower on the base plate. Thanks, Reid
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Reid Crosby
- Tuesday, 01/16/07 20:35:52 EST
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Amazing website-thanks. Every anvil or photo of an anvil I see has the anvil resting on a large piece of wood. Any reason for this? is it a matter of physics, or would it matter if the anvil rested on a steel or concrete base. Thanks in advance for your help.
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Steve
- Tuesday, 01/16/07 20:37:59 EST
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 Steel Bow: Rob, To determine your actual spring rate would take a lot of calculations. The best thing to do is build a bow where you can change arms easily.
The design to the left is a new sketch of a design from my high school days when I was quite an archer. The drawing is a poor representation of the long buried originals but should get the point across.
The arms are held on by bolts screwed into brass or aluminium cylindrical nuts. I would put a rubber gasket under the steel.
I would try a 1-1/2" by 1/8" spring to start tapering in width while thickening slightly to the end.
Note that mild steel is just as springy as spring steel. IF the spring travel is such that it doe not reach the bending point then the soft steel spring will work. If the spring bends then you need a higher strength steel which will deflect more before yielding. The spring rate will be the same.
The only metal armed bow I built was one with aluminium and it was heavy and slow.
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- guru
- Tuesday, 01/16/07 20:44:49 EST
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Andrew,
If those are the Off Center tongs, don't mess with trying to reshape then until you know a bit more. They're made from something on the order of 1045 medium carbon alloy and could crack if water quenched from a forging/bending heat. The best thing is to get some mild steel and learn to make your own tongs. There is more than one iForge demo on tongs.
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vicopper
- Tuesday, 01/16/07 20:49:25 EST
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Tongs: Andrew, I believe Grants tongs are 40 point carbon. Yes, you can reshape them but DO NOT quench them. All paint burns off at forging temperature. A little DeRusto BBQ black will keep them nice if you want.
On these particular tongs I do not recommend modifying them. Buy more sizes. If you want to play with tong shapes buy old tongs or make your own.
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- guru
- Tuesday, 01/16/07 20:52:37 EST
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Anvil Stands: Steve, Anvil stands were traditionally wood because it was available and economical. Modern stands have been cast iron, fabricated steel and various designs as well as wood. See our iForge demo #144 on Anvil Stands. There is just about every type of stand shown except the commercial cast iron stands.
Every smith has a preference.
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- guru
- Tuesday, 01/16/07 20:58:04 EST
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Dunno why they can't just make the anvil tall enough to start with. Would add some good mass, too!. (grin)
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vicopper
- Tuesday, 01/16/07 21:42:49 EST
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Newby smith: If You can get Yourself to York Pa. next weekend You can go to "Cabin Fever Expo" This is one of the 2 biggest model engeneering shows in the US. There are lots of folks showing engines like You are interested in, some selling plans, some selling casting kits. There is some really amazing work there, and I don't impress easily.
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Dave Boyer
- Tuesday, 01/16/07 22:38:25 EST
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Cabin Fever- Jan 20-21. make that THIS WEEKEND.
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Dave Boyer
- Tuesday, 01/16/07 22:39:39 EST
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John Deer : My cousin has a 1978 model, about 50 HP that was made in Germany. The little ones 650-1050 are built by Yanmar in japan. All the little diesel tractors in the past 30 years were Japanese,... except fot the Chinese ones.
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Dave Boyer
- Tuesday, 01/16/07 22:45:36 EST
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Junk Tools: As long as You shop at places that sell only the lowest cost goods [HF in particular] You are going to see junk tools. Some are usable, others are not. In '84 I got a Chinese made rotary table from MSC, Phase II brand. It is OK., certainly not the best ever built, but as good as a medium quality domestic made one. Even the Chinese, with rock bottom labor rates can't make good stuff for next to nothing. Read the tag on a recently made Black&Decker/Dewalt power tool? I bet they are not the only ones gambling a reputation on a better grade Chinese product. I like American Made stuff as much as the rest of You, but I am not niaeve to the ways of the worold.
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Dave Boyer
- Tuesday, 01/16/07 23:04:39 EST
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Black and Decker: At one time they had several levels of quality. They had happy homeowner and industrial duty. The happy homeowner stuff was more or less the same quality as most department store brands. When they merged with DeWalt the industrial stuff went to DeWalt and B&D remained the happy homeowner stuff. So the general line dropped in quality and DeWalt was built up.
My heavy duty B&D Wildcat grinders from the 198's are the best I have ever used. In the 90's DeWalt was making the Wildcat grinders.
Change is constant so there is no telling who makes what now. . .
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- guru
- Wednesday, 01/17/07 00:07:31 EST
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I recently purchased a 100# Beaudry Power Hammer with a date of 1898 at a auction in Pennsylvania. My wife and I have a shop in Montana. In the process of getting it across country, a couple of ambitious men (father-in-law and retired iron worker)took it apart.The bolt that holds the anvil to the frame had some kind of graphite looking material incasing it. Do you know what this is? If so where would I go about finding it?
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Ira Cuelho
- Wednesday, 01/17/07 00:15:24 EST
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Ira, I think it is just packed with scale.
Note that the Beaudry Champion with the round anvil has room to adjust then lock the anvil in position. Centering it to the ram is part of the setup process.
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- guru
- Wednesday, 01/17/07 00:48:44 EST
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Guru, You may be right about the scale getting packed in there, it just seemed to so hard to get out, I thought Beaudry might of put something in there to buffer impact, The anvil is square with a v-shape on one side that fits in line with the base. It took about three hours to get the bolt out,which measures 1 1/2" * 20" long ,and had a good 1/2" around it with packed in scale. There was also a type of paper with some kind of shock resistant tar that was in between the anvil and the base. Would you know what this material might be? and is it nessesary?
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Ira Cuelho
- Wednesday, 01/17/07 02:48:01 EST
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Black&Decker: I think they still [or at least recently] offer the industrial line, but sell it throuhg industrial supply houses. The Firestorm line is homeowner grade junk. Dewalt is marketed to the construction industry. I have a B&D chopsaw that has a motor that looks just like a Wildcat,and the cary handle is like the one on the 1/2" "D" handle drill, that machine was built in Italy.
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Dave Boyer
- Wednesday, 01/17/07 03:10:53 EST
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Speaking of anvils, those with Anvils in America, take at look at the Fisher display photograph on page 155. Were the round anvils shown there for large power hammers?
Also note the Rail Joints. Apparently those are where Clark Fisher made his fortune as a mile of RR track would need about 530 of them if the rails were 20'.
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Ken Scharabok (Poor Boy)
- Wednesday, 01/17/07 04:11:44 EST
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Beaudry: Ira, This is a different model than I described but the gray powder is definitely scale. It gets everywhere in power hamers, packs tight and makes it very difficult to remove dies and such.
The gasketing material is a different thing. It is there for a bunch of reasons.
1) To cushion as cast surfaces
2) Possibly to shim the anvil in place (if not there was an allowance for the material thickness)
3) To prevent scale from filling the space and possibly wedging the machine apart.
Yes it needs to be replaced. No I do not know what it is and I'm sure it is not available. Several layers of roofing felt (tar paper) may work to replace it. But there may have also been a plastic fill.
This is the problem with taking apart things that are old and you do not fully understand. On old machines bearings are often shimmed with .001" shims that tear like paper but are made of fine steel. You may think you are scraping off a gasket or dried oil but I losing a fit that took an expert hours to set up. Oilers are often packed with cotton or felt to control oil flow and prevent dirt from reaching bearings. Machines often have very small oil holes without caps that get painted over. Some parts are aligned by small dowels that get broken off because the disassembler does not know they exist. Every old machine is a mystery that must be studied carefully as it is taken apart and often there are places you do not take apart.
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- guru
- Wednesday, 01/17/07 09:07:31 EST
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Hello Guru...Thank you for taking time to answer my question...The countless hours you and the other gurus spend "giving back" by sharing your knowledge and maintaining this site is greatly appreciated by the blacksmithing community.
sincerely...
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Platte River Forge
- Wednesday, 01/17/07 09:29:21 EST
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Power Hammer Repairs: For some reason people equate a power hammer with a sledge hammer and think the maintenance and construction is as primitive as a stone club. They are not. They are a machine tool like any other. They have precision fits and critically aligned parts. Due to dirt scale and lack of lubrication they DO wear and they DO break. But they must be repaired properly not sledge hammered and arc welded into submission. Repairs often require use of micrometers, dial indicators and precision machine tools.
Old machines had a lot more hand fitting than most modern machines. Parts were blued and hand scraped to fit. Bearings were shimmed and tested with plasti-gage, final fits were doweled, bushings were reamed to fit. Matched parts were often used.
These were the art of the "mechanic" or "mill wright". These man usually had the skills of a machinist plus the knowledge of what the engineer wanted and how to achieve it.
Even today on low production machines there are many places where bushings and spacers call for "grind or machine to fit" meaning using a surface grinder, lathe or tool post grinder to set the dimension in assembly. This means trial fits, precision measurements and precision grinding on expensive machines. I have built many one-off gear boxes this way.
Old machines often had bearings cast in place but they were often cast around an undersized arbor and then line bored or reamed to fit. Even the bronze king pin bushings on modern trucks and old cars are step reamed in place.
Study that old machine before taking it apart. Respect the men that built them in the first place. They probably had skills and knowledge you do not have.
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- guru
- Wednesday, 01/17/07 10:00:06 EST
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Round Anvils: Ken, Those are just more anvils. Some sawyers anvils are still made that are round. Another specialty anvil that was custom made for the plant was file cutter's anvils. Ever see one? Neither have I. There may have been only a few hundred in existence in the U.S. Many minor trades and industries had quite specialized anvils made that never show up in catalogs or are easily identifiable.
The two large round anvils to the left with the very large "stake" or shank are the same general shape as the smaller round anvils on the shelf to the right of them that are setting with the top facing out. These round anvils were used in plate shops where large pans and vessels were still made by hand. Today the small versions are considered silversmiths' or coppersmiths' anvils.
Quite a number of the items in the Fisher display were specialty items made for industry to spec. so that they could show their range of capabilities. Like the RR parts and the odd cylindrical item to the upper right.
The only known Fisher power hammer anvils were those like on in our Fisher article.
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- guru
- Wednesday, 01/17/07 10:23:37 EST
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Black and Decker didn't merge with DeWalt they owned the brand name and used it to market a new line of tools to boost there declining market share in construction and serious homeowner sales.I was one of the first tool buyers that they pitched to. I ended up purchasing about $200,000.00 worth for that they took me on a float fishing trip.It actually was a good campaign I sold alot of tools.
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chris makin
- Wednesday, 01/17/07 11:28:56 EST
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DeWalt had a strange (to me) promotion a few years ago through Frank's Supply in Albuquerque (not one of my enterprises). Frank's had an open house where they specialized in inviting bull riders to the party. Frank's gave me a commission to make a DEWALT branding iron as part of the decor. Since it wasn't a real iron, I used the techniques of forging, arc welding, oxy welding, and forge welding to get it done. I never fully understood the bull rider connection, but an order is an order. www.franks-supply.com
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Frank Turley
- Wednesday, 01/17/07 11:52:39 EST
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RE: building a 1 cylinder engine
Get thee over to Harrys Old Engine (Google search, "I'm feeling lucky" will take you there). Lots of info and lots of links. You should see what some of those guys do with an engine that has been buried for 50 years, what with restoration and repair and reverse engineering.
Still frozen in N California. Invest in oranges, they are going up.
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- David Hughes
- Wednesday, 01/17/07 12:46:57 EST
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Black and Decker has not made their "industrial" line of tools for quite a while- no more Wildcat grinders, no more magnetic drill presses, or big D handle drills. Its all orange plastic homeowner stuff.
They have been making Dewalt tools since 1992. None of them qualify as "industrial" in my mind either.
They have owned Porter Cable and Delta since 2004- and of all of them, Porter Cable still makes some of the heaviest duty stuff, but it still doesnt match Bosch, Milwaukee, Fein, or Metabo metalworking tools for toughness or durability, in my opinion. Porter Cable makes some decent industrial woodworking tools still.
All in all, all 4 brandnames are a shadow of their former selves.
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- Ries
- Wednesday, 01/17/07 13:05:26 EST
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I know that their ASOs really suck, and most of their stuff is built in China, but what experience have you all had with any machinery supplied by Grizzly industrial. What do they mean, built in an ISO 9001 certified factory? It's only on some of their stuff...
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- vorpal
- Wednesday, 01/17/07 13:32:57 EST
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ISO 9001 certified means they paid a lot of money to join the club and documented how something is going to be manufactured, if it's junk and they document how they make it, it will still be junk and they can say "built in a ISO certified factory and not be lying. The company my brothers work for paid 10 grand. They were told if the inspectors asked how they knew the right setup and specs for a product, just say by the book, point to the manual and don’t say another word. They get inspected about every 6 months.
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- daveb
- Wednesday, 01/17/07 14:24:04 EST
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I was working when our Company went iso-9001 and as one of the first computer software organizations to do so. What DaveB says is true. You can make absolute junk; but as long as you are following the documented process you are OK with ISO!
For example if your documented process for dealing with customer complaints is to send two burly riggers with baseball bats to break the complainers' kneecaps and you can show that not one of your complainers is not on crutches you have a perfect score for that process. Doesn't matter if it's a good one or a bad one just that it is followed.
Of course the *FIRST* step in increasing quality is to have a stable process so you can tell what results any changes you make have on the system---control of the variables.
There were other quality systems that actually cared about whether your processes were any *good* or not---but they didn't catch on. I wonder why?
Thomas
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Thomas P
- Wednesday, 01/17/07 14:59:56 EST
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Grizzly imports some pretty decent woodworking machines, at good prices.
But their metalworking stuff is just a step or two up from Harbor Freight. Especially the cheap stuff.
With any chinese or taiwan machine tools, the ONLY ones worth buying are the best ones the company sells- so Grizzly sells the same crummy $1000 mill drill as everybody else- but when you get up to their $10,000 milling machines- they are decent. Not Bridgeports, but a similarly equipped Bridgeport, new, is now going for about $16,000, new.
So if you buy a cheap Grizzly tool, its kinda dicey- you could get a decent one, or you could get a crummy one. Depends on the tool.
I prefer Jet, when it comes to cheap imports, but really, I prefer real tools, no matter where they are made- for instance, you can buy a $500 Grizzly bandsaw, or a $3,000 Ellis bandsaw- and the difference is night and day.
There is no magic bullet that makes one $300 chinese tool better than another $300 chinese tool, unfortunately.
If you tell us which machine you are looking at, we can tell you more.
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- Ries
- Wednesday, 01/17/07 15:11:08 EST
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QC and ISO XXXX:
A couple decades ago every company had their own QC system which ammounted to a pile of paper work. If company A wanted subcontractor B to meet their QC system they often sent a copy of their paperwork to company B and company B would change the name on the paper and state that they met the following. . .
When a QC auditor came in to check their process they looked at the paper and asked, do you follow this, and the answer was always "YES SIR". Pickier companies would want to see gauge control records which were more paper work that was often rubber staped each month. . . IF they were serious they would actually audit the QC department and do their own gauge test sampling as well as visit the shop floor and observe. . But THIS was very very rare and over time degraded to just flipping through the paperwork.
ISO is an international version of this and is nothing but a paper tiger. Systems of this type are only as good as the auditors and the amount of money you can spend on auditors.
AND in the end even if EVERYTHING was done perfectly it does not insure quality.
Quality starts with engineering. IF something is engineered to be a crappy piece of junk and is made absolutely perfectly then you have a PERFECT PIECE OF JUNK.
It started with what was known as "planed obsolescence". Different ways to limit the life of a product. In the early part of the 20th century manufacturers and engineers realized they could make some products that lasted virtually forever. This may be great for the consumer but was not good for the manufacturer. So "planed obsolescence" became the catch phrase of engineering. Over the years engineers got better and better about determining life cycles and often there were parts on cars that failed within hours of the 12,000 mile warranty. . . They got too good so they had to increase vehicle warranties and engineer to those. . . When the US government stepped in and said that emission controls must last the life of the car all of a sudden owning a car became much nicer. . . But that is another subject.
Today it is very rare that a part fails before it is supposed to. THAT is quality! The problem is when the fail date is only a few hours as it is on many junk products. They will pass a cursory inspection. Flip the switch, it runs, sounds OK, it passes.
The biggest planed obsolescence rip off is light bulbs. Any manufacturer of light bulbs can make a bulb with almost infinite life. The typical house bulb is rated for something like 8000 hours but last MUCH less. But the typical traffic signal bulb is rated 250,000 hours and is almost identical in manufacture AND sees rough duty. They also exceed their rated life.
If you want to quadruple the life of bulbs in your home go to an industrial supplier and purchase 130 volt bulbs. Most bulbs are rated 115v (used to be 110) but most U.S. households have 120 to 125 volts. Too high a voltage and the life of the bulb plummets. Go to a slightly higher rated bulb and it will meet or exceed its rated life.
Often the cost of a part that lasts nearly forever, or is on the "infinite" part of the life curve, is only pennies different than a part with a specific (short) life. Most bearings in automobiles are engineered to last the useful life of the car (about double the warranty) . When they go bad sooner there was either an engineering mistake, a quality control error OR some extreame abuse of the vehicle. Engineering is most often the culprit. . someone slipped a digit. Then you have a commonly replaced part.
Many products have "lifetime" warranties. Sounds good until you read the fine print. "Life time" is defined as the average product life. . this means there is NO warranty. The life is the engineered life which is very short. So if the product lasts 4 hours then THAT is the lifetime it was engineered and warranted for. .
NOOOOO I am not a pessimist.
You want quality? Buy from companies that take pride in their product and want to make the BEST. There are a few and they are not necessarily the most expensive.
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- guru
- Wednesday, 01/17/07 16:16:57 EST
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I screwed up. . bulbs USED to be rated for 4,000 hours, now they are only rated 1,000 hours and last less. . . that is 100 ten hour days. The 250,000 hours of traffic light bulbs last 10,416, 24hr days or 28 years.
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- guru
- Wednesday, 01/17/07 16:32:23 EST
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thanks everyone for there info i think i will buy a messed up lawnmower and use it as a pattern or something
ha ha ha the casting part will be terrible im sure though
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- newbiesmith
- Wednesday, 01/17/07 18:52:09 EST
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Newby, One place to start on this kind of project is to build a lathe first if you don't have one. . There are a variety of plans around including one in the book Metalworking by Hasluck.
I would also look a SMALL engines like model airplane, weedwacker, small chainsaw. . .
BUY? a junk lawnmower! These are haul away's. Many can be found on the street during spring and fall clean up here in the states. People often throw away mowers that just need clean fuel, a clean carb and a spark plug. Real junkers have lots of aluminium that can be melted down and re-cast as something else. .
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- guru
- Wednesday, 01/17/07 19:00:11 EST
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thanks, it's really disgusting to think about the sheer waste generated by the greed of corporations and individuals. They apparently have no concern for future generations of the human race, or for anyone but themselves for that matter. That's one good reason to be a smith: the ability to recycle and reuse perfectly good junk. Does anyone recommend a bandsaw brand that will work well and last without costing appendages?
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- vorpal
- Wednesday, 01/17/07 19:27:02 EST
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The previous comments are 100% true, they even told me so in the class I was required to take as part of ISO. I could sleep through the entire class if I wanted to as long as I sign the attendence sheet at the begining. I will say that it's often not the companies fault that they buy into the scam though, sometimes their customers will require that they be ISO certified in order to continue doing buisness with them. That was the case with my last job, they joined ISO because their biggest customer at the time (Lucent technologies, sucks for them, heh) made them do it.
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AwP
- Wednesday, 01/17/07 23:12:27 EST
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Guru, Miles, and the other person who chimed in on my rosebud question of a little while back; thanks a lot! Got it going successfully with your advices. Saved the day, again.
Also, to the lady who asked about the buzz box, whether it was a good tool, I wanted to reccommend that she first of all be patient, because she won't necessarily find it easy to get control of the process of "striking an arc" and then maintaining the right arc length and then learning how to see the puddle and manipulate it. I had the humbling experience of being perhaps last in the class thirty years ago, and I persisted until I got fairly proficient, but really not very good compared to most. (After two years of practice, when I went to the shipyards they hired me as a "tacker," not a welder.) Anyway, I strongly reccommend getting an "auto-darkening" welding helmet, preferably with a big window for best visibility. That will make it FAR easier on you to learn and work. If you can get someone who knows how to actually demonstrate that will be a huge help too. The teacher used to hold our hand as we moved the electrode to help us get the timing of the "whip" motion and of course demonstrate the importance of the relationship between how "hot" the voltage is and how fast to move the rod. And little things, like if you don't have enough heat you can't help but stick the electrode to the work.I hope that you make it easy on yourself and don't get frustrated and quit.
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brian kennedy
- Wednesday, 01/17/07 23:26:37 EST
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Oh, and one more thing, I recommend using 1/8 6011 type rod, because it is a very good all purpose, all position rod to get used to. You can use it for vertical, overhead, as well as horizontal position and it works pretty well even when the steel has rust or paint or galvanizing on it. But you must, of course, protect yourself from fume inhalation very carefully.
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brian kennedy
- Wednesday, 01/17/07 23:33:47 EST
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And one more thing, as a total novice you may not be aware that MIG welding is far, far, easier and therefore far quicker to learn to get some kind of usable results with.
Of course to get a good sound weld it is never a good idea to weld on anything but clean, bare metal....
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brian kennedy
- Wednesday, 01/17/07 23:38:23 EST
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verpal: If you just want a small bandsaw for occasional use I have been happy with my vertical/horizon 1/2" x 64 1/2" model from Northern Tools. When I am cutting out parts it might run 4-6 hours a day.
Northern Tools products seem to be of a better quality than Harbor Freight and the U.S. based customer service center is 100+% helpful.
PawPal Wilson apparently had the same model as I have and same problem as I did, the blade coming off one of the rollers and riding on the side. Fixed it easily by putting thin washers on each side of the guide to center it.
With any bandsaw double check alignment of vise to blade. Just make a perfect 90 degree mark on say a board, clamp in vise, align with blade (centered on Zero degrees) and then VERY tightly bold down vise. Double-check alignment afterwards.
I made a small deep tray which hangs on the input saw of the table. About 4" wide by 4" deep and length of table. Nice for holding tools, accessories and gigs.
I've found if I leave about 3/4" of push-in slack on one side of the blade they last longer. Seems like if blade is over-tightened they will snap before becoming dulled.
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Ken Scharabok (Poor Boy)
- Thursday, 01/18/07 03:21:24 EST
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Shielded Metal Arc Welding SMAW,"Stick Welding" vs. MIG: While the initial learning curve with MIG is shorter, the results are not always what you think. I have laid down beads with MIG that LOOKED like a fine weld and found that the bead was just laying on top of the scale. MIG will also not weld over or NEAR paint. If the paint to the sides of the bead is close enough to burn or gas off the fumes often mix with the shield gas and cause problems. If you try to weld over even thin paint it causes obvious porosity in the weld bead.
MIG has a lot of problems for a lot of extra cost. Its a production tool that every busy shop should have. But a buzz bax will do 99% of what a smith needs and the extra money should go into oxy-acetylene equipment. You need both oxy-acetylene and arc welding. The buzz box does it cheaply until you can afford or need MIG.
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- guru
- Thursday, 01/18/07 11:14:50 EST
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I have a welding table sitting outside next to one of the shop doors. When I first got my MIG, I was getting really wormy, crappy results, until DUH, I realized that my shielding gas was blowing away.
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Frank Turley
- Thursday, 01/18/07 12:00:57 EST
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And, if you purchase a HEBRON head for your oxy/ace unit you have the equivalent of a plasma cutter. These heads can also be used for anything a brazing unit can do - including welding aluminum. I understand they are becoming popular with farriers for that purpose.
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Ken Scharabok (Poor Boy)
- Thursday, 01/18/07 13:50:58 EST
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My father is restoring a toy fire engine. I believe it is made of cast aluminum. I have never learned what pot metal is but my father thinks that is what it is made of. The kid that owned it back in the '40's apparently liked to ram it into things and bent the front end. The fenders ar slightly buckled and my father wants to bend them back in. I think he should use a propane tourch to anneal the fenders but he wants to try to heat the metal and work it hot. Can you give me a recomendation on how to reshape this safely?
Thanks
Will
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Will
- Thursday, 01/18/07 15:41:29 EST
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Ken - did you mean Henrob?
I've heard great things about it's cutting ability, but I went back to my Victor. . .
I have an old, nearly unused "Dillon 2000" version. It seemed to only work well for straight cuts on thin metal. It even came with "training wheels" to help you go straight. OTOH, maybe I didn't give it enough of a chance. . .
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John Lowther
- Thursday, 01/18/07 15:46:11 EST
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Henrob torches are cute little things, and they have their uses- but they sure arent a plasma cutter. They are good for some thin sheet cutting. A lot of guys never get used to the way they fit in your hand, though, and they put your hand pretty close to the heat- there are times when you need to wear pretty hefty gloves to use one.
As far as welding aluminum goes- I have gas welded aluminum with a Henrob, and it is no walk in the park. The guy who taught me does it when he welds 3003 sheet for replacement parts on half million dollar automobiles, because the weld doesnt get hard at all, and can be hammer formed and english wheel shaped. And for that application, gas welding 16g aluminum sheet, a Henrob, with proper flux, does a nice job.
For any average shop aluminum job though, a tig welder, or even a spoolgun running aluminum mig wire, is a much better choice.
They sell those Henrobs like they were "kitchen magicians" but, like most products they have to work so hard to talk you into, they arent all they are cracked up to be.
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- Ries
- Thursday, 01/18/07 15:58:05 EST
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Will - If it's pot metal, also known as Zamac (which is a zinc-aluminum alloy, sometimes with a bit of copper or magnesium) I would be extremely leery of applying heat: One of the reasons it is used for die casting is it's low melting point - under 1000 degrees F, and some alloys melt down in the 700s. Some pot metal alloys can approach the strength of cast iron, but like cast iron, it is pretty brittle.
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John Lowther
- Thursday, 01/18/07 16:05:50 EST
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Pot Metal: Will, This is normally zinc or a zinc alloy with a small amount of aluminum to make it harder. It melts at 800°F. Working it hot is NOT recommend. A slight anneal MIGHT help but it would be very easy to melt the piece. I would carefully support the part on a fitted mandrel and work it that way.
Almost all the Matchbox and similar metal toys are zinc.
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- guru
- Thursday, 01/18/07 16:09:17 EST
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Colors on tool steel: Not being a machinest or using "bought" high carbon or tool steel, I was curious about the colors I've seen painted on the ends of bars of what I think are tool steel. Are there standard color designations for different steels? I've got a 3 1/2" sq. about 16" long and wondered what it would be good for.
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David Bernard
- Thursday, 01/18/07 17:37:13 EST
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Colors on tool steel:
Ooops! I forgot to mention that the color on the piece I have is yellow.
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David Bernard
- Thursday, 01/18/07 17:38:45 EST
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David, Sorry, no these are not standard. Each warehouse or manufacturer has their own system. At one time Joseph T. Ryerson and Sons published a poster of their color codes. . . As long as you bought steel just from them everything was fine.
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- guru
- Thursday, 01/18/07 18:02:12 EST
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Colors on tool steel:
Thanks Guru. I guess I'll just use the spark test and take my chances - need to make some new flat dies for my K-style power hammer if the stuff sparks right.
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David Bernard
- Thursday, 01/18/07 19:11:48 EST
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Looks like I'll be getting a job doing some reproduction work for a Museum and I've got a question about how something was done. I'll be making a whaling harpoon with the shaft enclosure (feurrel) being of 1/8th sheet and then the shaft coming out will be 1/2" stock. I'm looking at using OA to do the welding, but wonder if they used to forge weld these pieces together. If so, I figure it must have taken a 3 man team. Anyone know for sure how it was done?
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Thumper
- Thursday, 01/18/07 19:49:54 EST
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Thumper
Whalecraft (harpoons and such)
http://www.whalecraft.net/index.html
lots of detail and examples
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habu
- Thursday, 01/18/07 21:39:43 EST
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Aluminum & spoolgun: I us a spoolgun for aluminum alot. Mind Frank's coment about wind blowing away the shielding gas for outdoor work however. The learning curve with a spoolgun on aluminum is fairly easy. This is at least in my opinion the easiest way to weld aluminum, but not the prettiest.
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Dave Boyer
- Thursday, 01/18/07 23:47:42 EST
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Thumper, These type sockets were forge welded. There are two methods. In one the socket is made separately the weld made on a slender mandrel or bicken horn. The edges of the stock are tapered slightly, welded, then thinned at the weld. Then the socket is welded to the shank. The first weld is a little tricky but the second weld goes fairly well. It is all one-man work.
In the second older method the shank and socket is one piece of wrought iron. The socket is forged flat out of a piece slightly larger than the shank, forge welded and then the shank drawn out (with help for the drawing out) OR the socket is formed from a short piece and then forge welded to the shank stock.
Generally this relatively light work was all done by one smith. At the peak of the industry these were made in factories that simply employed many smiths. Later they may have had steam and power hammers but by the time these were common in small factories whaling was on the wain.
Forge welding is quite a bit more difficult in mild steel than in wrought iron so we tend to shy away from it. In the wrought iron era it was common to piece things together from many pieces as was most convenient.
There is only one "special" tool needed, the proper shaped bickern or stake anvil. This is a small enough tool for this purpose that you should be able to make your own.
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- guru
- Friday, 01/19/07 00:21:09 EST
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Thumper, note the numbers of harpoons made by "Mr. James Durfee, the veteran harpoon-maker of New Bedford". He made an average of 1450 harpoons a year. That is about 5 a day taking off Sundays. Sounds like a lot but it is a very achievable number for an experienced smith making all the pieces.
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- guru
- Friday, 01/19/07 00:31:40 EST
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Sockets about half way down on this page
http://www.whalecraft.net/Non_Whaling.html
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habu
- Friday, 01/19/07 00:57:36 EST
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Another note on making a pattern for a socket: it is a truncated cone, Try to make it out of molding clay first , cutting and trimming it to shape, then cut open the cone for your pattern. I found this a lot quicker than to deal with the math or trial and error method. Works for candle cups too.
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habu
- Friday, 01/19/07 01:15:37 EST
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charcoal chimney to lite coke? I normally start my coke forge with a wood fire but the wood throws out sparks once it's charcoaled & the blower kicks in. To reduce the sparks, I tried a charcoal-chimney - paper on the bottom, coke on top. It lit the coke quickly & didn't throw any sparks at all. However, it surely did smoke!
Anybody used these for lighting coke? Suggestions for cutting out some of the smoke? Throwing coke on a hot wood fire makes almost none, but I suspect I can't have the best of both....
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garry
- Friday, 01/19/07 07:01:25 EST
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Gary, not sure what you are doing the second time, still using charcoal? Note that real charcoal smokes very little and briquetts are designed to smoke.
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- guru
- Friday, 01/19/07 09:08:16 EST
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On imports the U.S. require they be marked with county of origin, but it need not be permanent. A decal will be sufficient, such as those on the 110LB anvils while they are still at HF.
At one time a brand of pottery (Rosewood) was highly collectible. Imitations become coming in from China with a small "Made in China" sticker on bottom. Folks just took off the sticker and sold them as Rosewood. An experienced collector could tell difference in that the Chinese ones didn't quite have the luster of the original because they were using a different clay. China then perfected their clay mixing to where even authorities in the field are reduced to a judgement call. The value of original Rosewood has dropped as a result. A local antique shop refuses to not only handle it, but to give appraisals.
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Ken Scharabok (Poor Boy)
- Friday, 01/19/07 09:09:36 EST
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A while back I posted about the dangers of getting your hand web caught in the vise handle. Found another vise handle danger: the down swing nut catch. I won't do THAT again!
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- Nippulini
- Friday, 01/19/07 09:11:16 EST
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Harpoon: The note that the harpoon socket came to a point and the entire shank was forged to size indicates the first method I described. Rather than upsetting it is more common to start with a large lump and draw out the small diameter. This is most practical when you have a striker or power hammer but can be done by hand. Short heavy pieces are also easier to heat in their entirety. Example, a 1" square bar draws out to 1/2" bar 4 times the original length. 3/4" round bar draws out to 1/2" 2.25 times longer. For a 1.5" socket slightly thiner than 1/8" at the edge a 3/4" round will work. To make the full 1/8" the end will need to be upset to about 7/8".
No need to trial and error a cone or truncated cone. See our mathematics FAQ. Once you understand the method you can do it with rough layout and little math. Use the side of the cone to determine how long it is from the edge to the point. This is your layout diameter. Then you mark the circumference of the cone's base on the arc. You can measure with string, roll the part on the line or do the math (PI*d).
ADD one material thickness to the circumference for a bending allowance. The scarfs are forged after and should cancel out.
When forging the cone blank from the larger stock it should not be reduced in cross section too much at the point. The walls of the socket will be thicker there to blend into the shank. This takes hands on practice.
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- guru
- Friday, 01/19/07 09:44:12 EST
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Nip, I have two large vises with very heavy handles (about 6 to 8 pounds). You quickly learn where not to stand when opening and closing such a vise.
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- guru
- Friday, 01/19/07 09:49:36 EST
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Made-In Stickers: I was a little surprised the last time I rented an "American" made car (a mid sized GM) that there were bright orange "Made in China" stickers all over it. There is less and less US made content in "American" cars so I have little sympathy for their demise.
I recently watched all three of the "Back to the Future" movies. Remember the scene where Marty tells Doc, "All the best stuff is made in Japan". It was a little bit of a reality check in 1984. Today it is all over. . we lost.
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- guru
- Friday, 01/19/07 10:21:13 EST
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TLC show "Made In America" shows a lot of stuff made in America using foreign tools and imported materials.
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- Nippulini
- Friday, 01/19/07 11:36:41 EST
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I thought the idea was to use *their* materials and do the "value added" work here?
Thomas
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Thomas P
- Friday, 01/19/07 11:57:51 EST
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Trade Balance: The top dog in the trade wars is the one that imports raw materials and exports more finished goods.
Currently the US exports coal and scrap steel (which has already paid its blood cost) to Japan, Europe and China. That material was then reprocessed and dumped on our market as finished goods and reprocessed steel. Apparently global transportation costs do not add enough to make this uneconomical. And it also highlights that we have a serious problem.
We are paying off our trade imbalance with raw materials. This is a bankrupt policy that keeps third world countries from investing in industry and infrastructure.
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- guru
- Friday, 01/19/07 13:49:50 EST
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My proposal is to add a 'wage difference' tax on imports. Essentially research would determine what is the average hourly manufacturing wage in each country and the U.S. Each product imported would then be assigned a factor for the labor/manhours hours in it. That times the wage difference would be the tax. For simplicity say average manufacturing wage was $10 in U.S. and $1 in China. Product is coded as having ten labor/manhours in it. Tax would then be $90.00 per unit. Other countries are free to use the same technique for U.S. exports.
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Ken Scharabok (Poor Boy)
- Friday, 01/19/07 14:14:12 EST
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Garry, I used to light my coke forge with a handful of real, natural charcoal, often out of the wood stove or firepit. The hardest, most dense chunks seem to make little in the way of sparks. I just used a propane torch briefly to get the charcoal glowing, add blast bit by bit, add coke bit by bit, then it's a fire!
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- vorpal
- Friday, 01/19/07 14:41:29 EST
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no smoke at all
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- vorpal
- Friday, 01/19/07 14:44:30 EST
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The label "Made in the U.S.A." is virtually meaningless. The steel tape in a tape measure that was "Made in the U.S" may come from Germany. Needle bearings in a "Made in the U.S." tool, offshore. Etc. Item was perhaps assembled here. Perhaps. But made? Uh huh. Hoowhaw! We are, as the one they call 3dogs describes such a situation, "circling the bowl." We do make a lot of other stuff. Movies, CDs, DVDs, entertainment is a major, maybe the major, export.
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Miles Undercut
- Friday, 01/19/07 15:19:40 EST
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On Chinese labor, they may be the only country in the world with the ability to regulate the size and composition of their population. They current have a one child policy, but there are exceptions, such as if a child dies (normally its a girl as boys are strongly favored) or in rural area where children are needed for farm labor. If they want more factory workers they can ease off on the one-child restriction in additional rural areas. If they want technicians and such the limit on children might be determined by educational level, such as one for a bachelor's, two for a masters and three for a PhD or highly skilled technician.
Preference for boys is leading to a situation where males may eventually considerably outnumber females.
Then there is the 'spoiled brat' aspect from a pampered single child. Believe their terms for them is 'Little Emperors'.
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Ken Scharabok (Poor Boy)
- Friday, 01/19/07 16:06:11 EST
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One may have little sympathy for the American carmakers, but remember we are in the same boat as GM and Ford. Sympathy or not, if they fail it will be a major blow to America and all Americans. If I buy a Toyota or other foreign car, even one assembled in America, the profits go overseas. That is like harvesting timber without reforestation. The profits are what the industry needs to refurbish and save American industry and America itself. We may be too late.
We have given away more than we ever fought to save.
I saw an article in a US car magazine that described a US car, basicaly saying that it was fine and functional and would last a long time. At the conclusion he did NOT recommend its purchase because according to him, the appearance "lacked excitement." How important will that exciting appearance be when we are all working for the Chinese? (And that at Chinese wages and standard of living.)
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- John Odom
- Friday, 01/19/07 16:37:07 EST
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Now, I don't want to be inflammatory, but no country has championed free trade and a free market economy more than the US. Let the market decide is the mantra. It's a dog eat dog world....
Well, the US is being eaten. Deal with it.
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andrew
- Friday, 01/19/07 17:27:04 EST
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My grandma always said people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. I live in Australia. We have lots of really big farms & we're really good at it. We can sell food to china or anywhere else the wages are low. We're highly mechanised and very efficient.
What we can't compete with is the massive government welfare (subsidies) given to US farmers to compete in our markets.
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andrew
- Friday, 01/19/07 17:30:20 EST
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I strongly believe in the free market. I just wish AMERICANS
would consider the broader impact of each purchase. If a foreign product is really better, I might buy it. But for "Excitement"?. We need to reduce farm subsidies too, agreed.
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- John Odom
- Friday, 01/19/07 17:53:47 EST
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Freemarkets are only free to International corperations. can we get off the Politics and go back to talking about metal working? please please?
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- Frostfly
- Friday, 01/19/07 18:54:48 EST
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I made a swell knife from a chunk of a coil spring I found on the highway for my dad for his birthday next week. I cut a 3" piece of the spring, straightened it, then fullered it to a nice length. Hammered it into shape, cut off excess, filed it, heated to an orange-yellow, quenched in oil. I tempered it to a dark straw and sharpened then honed it. My dad is into woodworking, so I left the tang with holes for him to attach scales of his liking.
Hows THAT for metal talk?
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- Nippulini
- Friday, 01/19/07 19:04:29 EST
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Frosty: Yes, but... If all you are is a hobby blacksmith then the world economy and marketplace isn't necessarily of a concern. For those who do it with the anticipation of a profit, it is helpful to know what your competition might be. For example, you have a unique, and possibly patented, product and receive an order from China or India for one. Armed with the knowledge there is a strong possibility you will see that same (reversed engineered) product in the U.S. market marked as being from another country might you think twice about filling that order?
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Ken Scharabok (Poor Boy)
- Friday, 01/19/07 20:02:09 EST
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Nippulini, if you like springs for knives, I can make you a gift of some especially nice ones for hand forge work. All you have to do is pick them up at Quad State. :) Or the IBA hammer-in at Tipton IN.
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ptreeforge
- Friday, 01/19/07 21:05:55 EST
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Or likely at the 2007 Anvilfire.com Hammer-in at my farm near Waverly, TN on April 20-22.
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Ken Scharabok (Poor Boy)
- Friday, 01/19/07 22:08:10 EST
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If you don't think international trade has anything to do with smithing, you must have inherited a blacksmith shop. or married a smith's daughter.
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Miles Undercut
- Friday, 01/19/07 22:37:02 EST
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Thanks all for the post's on the harpoon project. I was going to cheat the piece using tubing for the socket and OA for the welding, but I think doing it the traditional way is going to be a learning experience I just can't pass up!!!
Garry, light your coke with an OA (or propane and oxygen), rosebud or cutting torch, in less than 10min you will have a useable bed of glowing coals with no, I repeat, no smoke!! Plenty of carbon monoxide, but no smoke. If you don't have OA, bust up some Kingsford briquette's into 3 pieces each, soak in gasoline and use that for your base fire. Make sure your blower is on when you put the charcoal in place, before you light it, otherwise you'll get a nice loud bang in your blower pipe from the gas fumes drifting down when you add the match!!
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Thumper
- Friday, 01/19/07 22:40:54 EST
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Hello all. I've got a steel question if anyone here can answer it for me. I was looking for some tool steel to forge some blades out of, and found a Fastenal store near me and picked up a 3' bar of 3/4" round O1 drill rod. However after trying to forge it down to size for a bit, the stuff is hardly moving. I sort of assumed that it would come in an anealed state, was this assumption wrong? Is O1 like some of the other tool steels that need to be anealed very slowly after having been hardened before you forge it again? I had always been told that O1 is a good forging tool steel, but this stuff is being much more difficult to move around than i thought it would.
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jmercier
- Friday, 01/19/07 22:56:03 EST
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3/4"O1,
When the steel is at a forging temperature, Anealing is a moot point. Hardenening, tempering etc. have long vanished.
But still high carbon steel will always be tougher to forge than low carbon.
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- Mike
- Friday, 01/19/07 23:36:12 EST
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jmercier: Heat it to 1900F and hit it. Tool steel doesn't move easily.
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Dave Boyer
- Friday, 01/19/07 23:36:54 EST
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jmercier: Like Mike and Dave said, O1 just doesn't move as well under the hammer as some steels, but it's pretty easy to HT and makes a great blade when it's done.
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AwP
- Saturday, 01/20/07 03:07:50 EST
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Oh, forgot to mention... I don't get my O1 any thicker then 1/2" because of that.
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AwP
- Saturday, 01/20/07 03:08:52 EST
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what is the best tree stump to use that absorbs anvil ring and is sound reduced more by leaving the bark intact. Does wrapping the anvil with innertube and attaching magnets really do anything to reduce sound? Is there an anvil stand that works better for this than a tree stump besides a bucket of dirt or sand.
Thanks,Dave
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dave
- Saturday, 01/20/07 03:14:05 EST
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Anvils and Noise: Dave, Tree stumps do not deaden anvil noise. If anything they accentuate it. Why? An American pattern anvil is a self reinforcing vibrator like a turning fork (two large masses connected by a narrow section) and it needs to be free to move to make noise. The best way to give is freedom to move is to balance it on a high point OR support it on several small points such as an uneven resisiliant (wood) surface.
There are several methods for reducing noise. Anchoring snuggly to a heavy stand helps. A rubber or roofing felt gasket (tar paper) then bolting the anvil down. Some have holes for this, other require you make clamps.
Bonding the anvil to the stand helps. The modern method is to glue the anvil down with a silicon rubber caulk. Almost any type will do but the ones for use with concrete are the best for this purpose. A combination of bonding and bolting is often used. The bed of caulk should be continuous under the anvil.
An old European method of deadening the noise was to set the anvil in a container of dirt and coal ash (or coarse sand). Although it helps some under certain conditions it does not help much.
Speaker magnets with the case and elastic mount help if they are big enough for the size of the anvil. You must experiment with placement. I could not tell a lot of difference.
See our Stands iForge demo for different stands.
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- guru
- Saturday, 01/20/07 09:17:51 EST
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Stumps and Bark: Depending on the tree type and your location you should debark your stump as soon as possible. Loose bark is where many insects get a start in wood and once started are difficult to get rid of. These can then transfer to other wood in the surrounding area (tool chests, wood handles, floors, building framing). As soon as the wood surface is dry enough to absorb water you can then treat the wood with a borax water solution. As the wood dries you can slow checking with anti-freeze. Do not leave it lying around as it is toxic and pets like to drink it.
Although kiln dried lumber is insect free the borax treatment will also help keep insects out of it. This is recommended for any wood stand used outdoor or on an earthen floor. Sealing the surfaces in contact with the Earth is a good idea, however this will wear off.
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- guru
- Saturday, 01/20/07 09:30:03 EST
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Forging Tool Steel: I have used annealed tool steel bar in applications where I needed moderately high strength without heat treatment. Annealed O1 is roughly the same hardness as fully quenched mild steel (which DOES harden but is brittle at full hardness).
Two things hurt when forging tool steel, the lower maximum forging temperature (1950°F) and the higher strength at that temperature. In mild steel you can get a 50% reduction at 20,000 PSI and 1800°F but you only get a 5% reduction at the same in A6 tool steel. To get the same reduction in tool steel requires two to four times as much force. It helps a LOT to work at the forging limit of the steel. - Examples from the Heat Treaters Guide (ASM).
As noted by AwP you can get a very nice blade (Bowie and sword width) from a 1/2" round. This requires a LOT less forging than the 3/4". The problem you will have with the larger stock is that it will take many heats and each time you are decarburizing the steel deeper and deeper. You can easily end up needing to grind 1/16" off the entire surface which will narrow an edge by 1/4". So the larger stock is costing you time forging AND time grinding.
Several years ago I needed to flatten some 5/8" coil spring steel for a fellow. Luckily I was in someone's shop with several power hammers. We started with the 100 pound hammer. This did a good job until the stock flattened and cooling and friction became a problem. The 100 pound hammer hit it and just bounced off. . . SO, I went to the 300 pound hammer. Now THIS moved the steel even though the dies were over twice as wide. . . BIG difference!
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- guru
- Saturday, 01/20/07 10:15:37 EST
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Thanks, guess I should buy smaller bars. I got the 3/4" just assuming I could reduce it down yet leave large collars for an integral bolster if I watned, but I'm thinking it was a mistake now. I've worked 1084 before, and 1095 and while those werent the easiest metals to move, they at least moved. This 3/4" O1 I'm whaling on with a sledge and the hammer just bounces, hardly moving the metal at all.
Will running my propane forge with a reducing flame help reduce the amount of decarbing of the steel?
Maybe it's time for me to invest in a treadle hammer =)
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jmercier
- Saturday, 01/20/07 11:08:28 EST
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On the forge, no. It will help a little but gas forges are generally difficult to create a true reducing atmosphere in.
Please note that a treadle hammmer is NOT a power hammer. While it can be use to hit several blows harder than you can by hand it is STILL human powered. YOU still have to move the weight. And even though the springs lift the weight YOU must overcome those same springs to strike a blow.
For the money I would build a McDonald Mill for this purpose. You can turn all that O1 into nice flat bar WITH shoulders if you like. See our book review page for plans.
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- guru
- Saturday, 01/20/07 11:36:45 EST
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I'm aware that a treadle hammer isnt a power hammer, I just dont think my neighbors would be too keen on the noise from a power hammer, they already complain when my air compressor is in use =(. I live on the outskirts of a small city in a neighborhood with houses packed around me. I've got the biggest yard in my neighborhood and my shop in my detached 2 car garage.
While I'd prefer a power hammer, my compressor is far too small for something like a KA75, and i've not got the money for an old beaudry or LG or something. A treadle hammer would be better than nothing. A rolling mill would be nice for flattening stock, but doesnt have the versitility of a treadle hammer. I could shape cable damascus billets and such with a treadle hammer, and still be able to use it as a striker for punching or chisle work , which i couldnt do with a press or mill.
Maybe I'll wait on forging this bar out till I can get to a friend's place who has a pneumatic press.
On the treadle hammer side, would you recomend the extra work (or money if I decide it's worth my time to purchase one outright) for an inline treadle hammer vs a normal one?
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jmercier
- Saturday, 01/20/07 12:07:22 EST
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On the reducing atmosphere in a gas forge, if you put a piece of wood or charcoal in the forge, and replace it when it gets burnt, that'll help keep it more reducing. You'll still get some decarb whenever you take it out of the forge and hammer it though.
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AwP
- Saturday, 01/20/07 13:11:03 EST
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While it is not the most modern, effective solution, it can be fun and a good learning experience to draw out or forge tough items the old way, with a striker.... I usually try to get a friend all stoked to learn smithing, and as soon as he gets through the door, hand him a 10# sledge! Take a lesson from Tom Sawyer. That's what friends are for.... and if he still wants to smith after his hands blister up a couple times, maybe you have an "apprentice" as well.
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- vorpal
- Saturday, 01/20/07 14:40:50 EST
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One of the last times I helped Paw-Paw forge something he had a piece of 1" square. . We took turns with a short handled 6 pound sledge. I wouldn't want to use it often but it moved the steel.
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- guru
- Saturday, 01/20/07 15:35:01 EST
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I recently found a katana blade at a second hand shop. The blade is hira-zukuri, meaning that it is basically flat ground with a rolled edge. I found that this type of blade was usual in tantos, but very uncommon in long swords. The finish is all scuffed up, so no grain discernable, it could well be plain steel but no real rust except for on the tang, which bears no marks. Very hard to identify, but it is a really solid blade wih some good weight to it and quite restorable I think. Do you think based on this info that $35.00 is reasonable to pay? It would take me a lot more than that in time to make it....
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- vorpal
- Saturday, 01/20/07 21:25:48 EST
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just as a practice blade, possibly for resale after restoration.
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- vorpal
- Saturday, 01/20/07 21:27:39 EST
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What's a blister? Heh heh, I stopped getting those when I was 19 as a carpenters helper.
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- Nippulini
- Saturday, 01/20/07 21:52:19 EST
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We charge $35.00 just to fire up the forge. When you restore the sword, try to make it go "snicker-snack".
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- Vorpal
- Saturday, 01/20/07 22:06:32 EST
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Sorry Vorpal. Name mix-up
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Frank Turley
- Saturday, 01/20/07 22:07:51 EST
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Hey Turley, as you may have guessed, that's my life ambition! Kick ass!
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- vorpal
- Saturday, 01/20/07 23:14:37 EST
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I am interested in becoming a swordsmith, I take Battojutsu, I own 6 katanas (the real thing, carbon steel) and have done research and still am, on that of the japanese blade and its history, and am going to join the JSSUS, I was wondering, do you have to take some type of class in college or do you contact a special person?
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Joseph
- Sunday, 01/21/07 07:04:43 EST
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Joseph,
Contact barry@jssus.org for answers. For serious study, I would recommend purchasing the book, "Nippon-To Art Swords of Japan", Japan Society, Inc.
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Frank Turley
- Sunday, 01/21/07 09:11:40 EST
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Joseph, you might also go to www.dfoggknives.com . Talk to the members there about swordmithing. Many of them are master smiths and incredible artists.
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quenchcrack
- Sunday, 01/21/07 09:40:29 EST
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Joseph, See our Sword Making References list.. These references are more general but they all apply to the subject. Part of the process of becoming self educated in any field is to obtain the proper books. In metal working there are also standard references to modern steels and heat treating that are tools of the trade. As many tools are, they are not cheap. But obtaining them is an important part of the business.
Although you are currently looking at a very narrow set of traditional skills you will need to know what is going on in the world at large as we are all in a global economy.
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- guru
- Sunday, 01/21/07 09:52:30 EST
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how much do swordsmiths generally make?
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ray
- Sunday, 01/21/07 11:34:57 EST
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ray: If you are a master swordsmith, perhaps several thousand per blade. If you are anything less then it is whatever the market will bear based on your quality (and to a much lesser degree, reputation).
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Ken Scharabok (Poor Boy)
- Sunday, 01/21/07 14:07:03 EST
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Ray, The only answer is that in today's world a swordsmith is an artist-craftsperson. Ever hear the term "starving artist". That is what most artists are that follow their dream. A few make a living and a very very rare few make good money no matter what their art sells for.
Believe me. I am from a family of fa |