| WELCOME to the anvilfire Guru's Den - V. 3.0 |
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THIS is a forum for questions and answers about blacksmithing and general metalworking. Ask the Guru any reasonable question and he or one of his helpers will answer your question, find someone that can, OR research the question for you. This is an archive of posts from February 16 - 23, 2006 on the Guru's Den |
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While searching your site, I didn't see the question and wanted to know: When making a sword, how many times would you fold the steel? To you knowledge, what is the most a sword was folded? Is there a limit to the number of times a peice of steel could be folded before it degraded if it would start to degrade? Thatnk you for your insight. |
| - Sam W. - Thursday, 02/16/06 01:54:23 EST |
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Sawing cast iron... job done, the problem was a pot hard bit of porosity in the casting, and using the coolant (and being tierd after 10 hr shift!). The next cut was fine 'dry' tried one with the (water soluable) coolant and it just created a boiling paste of C.I that the blade wouldnt touch. Though about cutting them through the 1" section, but the blade wonders enough going through 1" of depth, never mind 9" (the saws not cut straight since I lent it to someone a couple of years ago, and they dropped it of the crane from 4' up, idiots!) Cheers for the pointers. |
| john n - Thursday, 02/16/06 09:03:17 EST |
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Dear Sir, We are facing the problem of black stain or carbon stain on cold rolled strip after cleaning from high density cleaning line( cleaning solution using: artho-silicate) during further process ie, during temperpass after anealing.Our every parameters are within norms; Strip also looks like very bright but it becomes blackish near both the edges some times in full coil or some times inner or outer dia.We suspected in the condition of our coolant used during rolling that is metastable oil(Quaker SRO 1000) but the parameters of coolant is also within norms. Thats why we changed the total rolling emulsion now coils are under process so we have to wait for result.This problem we faced when we restared our lines after long shut down maybe near about 25days before that strip quality was very good. So Sir please guide me to overcome this problem or if you need any technical data please ask me. Thanks Kishor |
| Kishor Warde - Thursday, 02/16/06 09:07:27 EST |
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Dear Sir Why strip width not increasing after cold rolling?Why spread is only in forward direction? |
| Kishor Warde - Thursday, 02/16/06 09:10:31 EST |
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Dear Sir, How to calculate total load over strip during cold rolling process in 4HI mill? |
| Kishor Warde - Thursday, 02/16/06 09:12:15 EST |
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Folds, IE laminations: Sam, Those questions are answered in the references suggested in our sword making FAQ. Every lamination of steel reguires a perfect forge weld. For some a forge weld is a difficult thing to do and even for professionals a perfect weld is difficult. So my question is, can you forge weld? Learning to forge weld and make these perfect welds is the first step in learning the process. The number of "folds" thown about by many people and especially in fiction (including movies - Highlander, Kill Bill. . .) is usualy wrong. First, the term "fold" is generally a bad term. The steel is cut, stacked, welded, drawn out then cut stacked and welded again. If the steel is folded the ends have vertical and curved grain rather than flat and a great amount of waste is created. Depending on the type of steel and the initial billet the laminating is done a various number of times and the number of times is actually irrelevant. What is important is the number of layers per unit of measurement, NOT the total number of layers. If you start with two 1" thick layers how many laminations does it take to get to .003" thick each compared to starting with thirtytwo 1/16" layers? The normal billet is four or six layers to start but a few smiths start with 200 layers of .005" shim stock. In this last case only ONE welding heat is necessary to result in less than .001" layers. The math runs like this. Four 1/4" layers equals about 4 layers in one inch until the billet is drawn out to 1/4" at which point the layers are 16 per inch due to the forging the 1" stack to one fourth its original thickness. Cut that billet in thirds, weld and draw out to 1/4" and you have 48 layers per inch. In the next lamination by thirds. you would have 144 layers .007" thick each. Do it again and you have 432 layers .0023 inches thick. For reference a sheet of newsprint is between .003" and .005" thick. That is only four welds or "folds"! If you "folded" the billet the number of times suggested in fiction and by the ignorant the thickness of the layers would be less than atomic sized and the point of the process is lost. Some smiths only double the layers, most triple but the number can vary as well as the starting number of layers AND the number of times laminated. So the only real measure is layers per unit measure, not "folds". Depending on the conditions in the fire the steel starts to degrade by decarburization in the first heat. There is a tremondous amount of loss in this process and much of the surface of the steel must be ground off to make a good blade. There are several reasons for laminating the steel. In the Japanese process they generally are making their own steel from wrought iron and highly carburized iron that is close to cast iron in carbon content. These two are laminated over and over to make a nearly uniform product. However, the Japanese do not waste effort and known when its good enough. They also prize the decorative grain that would dissapear if worked too long. In the early European process the laminating was used to make less brittle steel from the available low quality steel as well as to make soft cored swords that were stronger than all hard swords. The Japanese did the same. In modern bladesmithing the laminating is generally done for decorative reasons and has been raised to a very high art far in advance of anything done previously execpt in myths. It is also done for historic reasons but modern steels are used resulting in a far superior product to anything done historicaly. |
| - guru - Thursday, 02/16/06 09:54:58 EST |
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Cast Iron: John N, is sounds like you got iron cast from a lot of scrap. The results can be VERY hard nasty stuff. A friend of mine had swage blocks cast at a foundry that had given up on buying new iron OR good clean scrap and the results were a mess. Each one was a metalurgical nightmare. The one I had included something that looked like metal mushrooms in the bowels. I flattened the block on a shaper with much effort and drilled a through hole just to have one. It was the most difficult 1/2" diameter hole I have ever drilled. . . There are castings and then there are castings. . . |
| - guru - Thursday, 02/16/06 10:05:38 EST |
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Ken's rein clips: Ken, that didn't take long! I have a question on those, and similar, clips. How do you keep them from falling off when not clipped? I've been using a dirt simple squished ring and the spread of the reins keeps them on, unless I squeeze the reins hard enough. |
| - Marc - Thursday, 02/16/06 11:00:33 EST |
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Marc: The value of a rein clip is to allow you to only have to hold the tongs, not put pressure on the tongs - which can lead to blacksmith's elbow. My observation is they are somewhat of only real value when the tongs are designed for the work being done. For example, if you are trying to hold 7/8" square stock in tongs intended for 1" likely the work will comes lose with a clip. Here you may not have a choice but to use a tight hand grip. |
| Ken Scharabok - Thursday, 02/16/06 11:32:09 EST |
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Thanks, Ken. I understand the use of the clips. Until fairly recently - maybe a year back - I used a death grip and developed tendonitis in that elbow. A looser grip has helped that greatly. I'm more thinking that when I put the piece back in the forge I usually don't leave the tongs attached. At that point I would unclip the tongs. Your version of the clip, along with Frances Whitaker's and others' look like the clip would fall to the floor pretty readily. Or does the tong stay clamped to the piece until done forging, or mostly done? That could be a problem with a gas forge. I would end up needing tongs to hold the tongs :-) |
| - Marc - Thursday, 02/16/06 11:56:17 EST |
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Tong clips: One more thing - On the tongs I have ring clips on, and I guess they should probably not be called "clips", I have the reins slightly flared out. This way, I can still grip different sizes. A smaller size means I slide the ring back further. So far, I only use these on the tongs I use to hold top tools, like punches and chisels. But that's only because I'm lazy and haven't gotten to spending the 3 minutes or so to make a new ring and flare the reins (if needed). |
| - Marc - Thursday, 02/16/06 12:01:48 EST |
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Most swords in the history of the world are not made from "folded steel" so the answer to your question as stated is 0. Now the steel chosen for the edges in traditional japanese swords from tamahagane was/is *very* high carbon close to a cast iron and with the loads of impurities you expect in a bloomery process. The "folding" process is done enough times to bring the carbon level down from close to 2% to 0.5% and homogenize the carbon content and any retained impurities. How many times does this take? How decarbing is your forge? What did you start with? Where do you want to end up? How high is up? What have I got in my pocket? You do it until you get it right---and you have to have the experience to recognize when this is. In migration era European pattern welded swords the billets were often of lower number of laminations though they were often then "assembled" into a blade---one I have read about had 13 seperate pieces in it's construction and 5 of them were pattern welded billets. IIRC in the research that was done to replicate the Sutton Hoo sword for the British Museum most of the billets used in it were of low layer numbers---under 20; but a number of these were then welded together to make the blade. In European swordmaking patternwelding diminished as better more homogeneous steels became available---though you will have to admit that the shear steel process is a layering process. Thomas |
| Thomas P - Thursday, 02/16/06 12:44:50 EST |
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I forgot to mention that in european patternwelding billets were commonly twisted which affects their properties---in knifemaking twisting is usually done with lower layer billets than other patternwelding designs---if you do a twist you might use a 160 layer billet instead of a 512 layer random pattern. Thomas |
| Thomas P - Thursday, 02/16/06 12:48:28 EST |
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Kishor Warde; If your strip isn't widening, but it IS elongating, it would seem to me that you are running flat work rolls, as opposed to crowned. Where is your mill? |
| 3dogs - Thursday, 02/16/06 13:23:30 EST |
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Kishor Warde; With all due respect, the stain problems you describe sound like ones that could be dealt with by a competent in-plant metallurgist. Are you getting bad material from your hot strip people? Has it been properly pickled? Does your CR mill have roll benders? The preceding questions have been asked, not by a qualified roller or metallurgist, but by a journeyman millwright who just repairs a 4 stand Mesta CR mill. |
| 3dogs - Thursday, 02/16/06 13:48:34 EST |
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Gloves: I like them, I work in them, I've never had any real problem with them. There have been cases where they have saved me from, or ameliorated, what could have been very bad burns. However; different ships, different long-splices. I know of one smith who swore he threw people wearing gloves out of his shop; but let's not go there! ;-) Sunny and springtime on the banks of the Potomac. Visit your National Parks: www.nps.gov Go viking: www.longshipco.org |
| Bruce Blackistone (Atli) - Thursday, 02/16/06 15:46:44 EST |
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Lets do some simple math---everyone take off their shoes now! Lets say that the smith can do a forge weld every 10 minutes---we won't count set up time, cleaning out the forge, etc or about 50 a day--so for the upper limit of a "good blade" it would take him about 50 YEARS to make a single blade---hard to get good when you can only do it twice in your lifetime! The "National Treasure" smiths who still forge traditional swords in Japan produce several a month and could do more except for regulations. Now lets look at losses do to scaling; again we will take a low bound of 1% per welding heat---after 800,000 times what do you have left? How big of a billet do you have to start with to have about 3 pounds left after that many heats---is their any industrial forge in the word that would heat it much less a hand powered charcoal forge? Now a common misconception mixes "layers" for "folds". Now layers can be approximated by 2 to the number of folds/welds --- only takes 17 cycles to get over 130,000 putative layers---putatively as what you get is a homogenous mass with only the latest welds showing up as pseudo layers Don't take my word for it go out and weld up a billet and experiment! I welded up my first one over 20 years ago and once it "clicks" you may find it interesting and fun. Thomas |
| Thomas P - Thursday, 02/16/06 16:10:44 EST |
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I know essentially nothing about traditional Japanese bladesmithing. However, as computer science grad student, I wonder if the 100,000 to 800,000 could be the number of layers, rather than folds. This would put the number of folds in the range of 17 - 20 which sounds more reasonable. Then again, I was pretty happy the other weekend to get two forge welds in mild steel bar to stick. Doing 20 perfect welds in a row, well, I guess that's how you get the title of master. |
| Dave A - Thursday, 02/16/06 18:08:15 EST |
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Thanks to everyone who responded to my question about the need for gloves. Apparently I am some right and some wrong. The grandkids all ready know I don't know everything. Thanks |
| dan bartholomew - Thursday, 02/16/06 18:09:12 EST |
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Hi guys I found an interesting tip in a wood working book. The book suggests old circular saw blades etc for making knife blanks as the saw blades are of high carbon steel and of an appropriate thickness for a fairly beefy camping etc knife. Hope this helps someone. Stephen |
| - Stephen - Thursday, 02/16/06 19:02:18 EST |
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About gloves,,When I was a kid and an apprentice in a metal shop,the first thing I was told was not to wear gloves on a grinder,lathe,Bridgeport,drillpress or any thing else that spins. Fifty years later the advice still seems valid. |
| - arthur - Thursday, 02/16/06 19:04:43 EST |
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Rotating equipment: Is just another way of saying,"really dangerous!" The advice about not wearing gloves around them is very sound, indeed. The same thing applies for loose clothing, stray ends anything that can get caught by a rotating piece and pull you in. When I was teaching, one of the students violated the rule about having long hair tied up under a cap when using the buffing lathe. Sure enough, it snatched her luxurious long hair and slammed her head into the buff. Fortunately, her hair parted company from her scalp before the scalp parted company from the skull, or broke her neck. For the remainder of the year, that big hank of hair pinned to the wall served as a grisly reminder that machines can harm you in an instant. There have been hundreds of much worse stories about people losing limbs and lives due to being pulled into equipment by their clothing. Don't let it happen to you. |
| vicopper - Thursday, 02/16/06 19:46:05 EST |
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Stephen: Bet that was an OLD woodworking book (pre 1950s), eh? Modern circular saw blades are usually 4140, which, while tough, is not a good knife steel. Even older blades were made of different things. The best thing to remember is, if it has carbide teeth or any other sort of brazed-on inserted teeth, it is not necessarily a decent knife steel. I can't resist the Japanese blade myths as well: Since these started as a pile of little chunks of extremely high-carbon steel atop a paddle of previously forged steel, you will get what appears to be an infinite amount of layers after one homogenizing welding sequence. It's not layers or folds, it's just the weld boundaries of many little chunks of steel after a few welding sequences. There is nothing magical, mystical, or in any way out of the ordinary about Japanese swords. Thay are often works of art, yes. Any modern tool steel will outperform one. Not as aesthetically brilliant, no. Brutally honest, yes. |
| Alan-L - Thursday, 02/16/06 20:02:09 EST |
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DEAR SIR, I HAVE AN ANVIL IGOT FROM MY GRANFATHER. IT HAS THE QUEENS STAMP ON THE SIDE, BELOW IS WILLIAM, BELOW THAT IS USTE[I THINK HARD TO READ] BELOW THAT IS 1851 AND BELOW THAT IS JP. THE OTHER SIDE HAS U 3 18. I WAS WONDERING IF YOU NEW ANY HISTORY ABOUT IT. THANKS STEVE NORTH CAROLINA. |
| steve miller - Thursday, 02/16/06 20:56:44 EST |
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I am going to attempt to make an engine gaurd for a Harley out of 1 1/4 cold rolled square stock twisted in two different directions. I am just getting started on the project is there anything more to consider than just making it hot enough to twist and going for it. I plan on usign two oxy-act rose bud type torches. Any info would be a gtreat help. THANKS |
| Kevin - Thursday, 02/16/06 21:31:38 EST |
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Kishor: Go to the American Society for Metals and Materials International website and buy the book: Fundamentals of Flat Rolling by Ginzburg. It is all you ever needed to know about rolling steel. Uh...be prepared for sticker shock. As I recall it was about $200. |
| quenchcrack - Thursday, 02/16/06 21:46:03 EST |
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Hmmmm... I never thought about getting the glove caught in the grinder. My main worry was grinding on my hand on accident! Well, Thanks for the what should have been obvious info! I won't be doin that anymore... |
| - Megil Anveleth - Thursday, 02/16/06 22:30:53 EST |
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Dan B. Don't underestimate how right You are. as someone else mentioned, copper conducts heat MUCH better, the demo smith probably would have to experience it Himself to belive it. You can strike an arc with a tig welder on a block af copper 2"x2"x1" and melt the end of a tungsten electrode 1/8" diameter into a ball and not melt the copper surface the arc is struck against because the heat is carried away that fast. |
| Dave Boyer - Thursday, 02/16/06 22:53:32 EST |
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Steve Miller, The anvil is a William Foster, perhaps manufactured in Sheffield, England. It is believed the company went out of business in the 1860s or 1870s. Re the numbers, if the first one is an zero, then the anvil weighs 102#. Kevin, 1¼" hot rolled is cheaper than cold finished, if you can find it. You'll need at least a lemon heat and lots of muscle on the twisting wrench. |
| Frank Turley - Thursday, 02/16/06 23:44:27 EST |
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If you're going to make a knife and are not experienced at it I would recommend buying some O-1 of the appropriate size and using that. You will have a known metal, with specific heat treat and forging specs, and O-1 is not an expensive steel. You can buy enough to make 6 or 8 sensible knives for less than $40. You'll thank yourself for having the right sized stock when you get to the grinding and finishing stage. Then you can experiment with junkyard steel if you want, but be prepared to work harder and have a good chance of losing your knife AFTER you've got 10 or more hours in it. If you're going to twist 1 1/4 square stock by hand you must be the clone of King Kong. That is some serious steel! Not to mention, what are you going to use to hold the other end while you are twisting? |
| Ellen - Thursday, 02/16/06 23:57:07 EST |
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Ellen,,5160 and 1084 are also good choices for beginng knife makers... |
| - arthur - Friday, 02/17/06 01:33:56 EST |
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Arthur, yes I've used 5160....but not 1084. In my opinion, and all smiths have LOTS of opinions, grin, 0-1 is just the easiest to work with, the most readily available, and the cheapest. It is also supposed to be a tad tougher and harder than 5160. Your mileage may vary! |
| Ellen - Friday, 02/17/06 01:36:47 EST |
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Rein Clips. I just thought about the ratchet system on suturing forceps used by docs and vets. A three stage ratchet(?) on the end of the reins - a choice of 3 clicks to get the grip on the material right and the fourth squeeze to release. Good for lots of repetitions on the same size material. Anybody know what I mean, as it is hard for me to describe? Why would you do this? Because you could, and you would be the flashest blacksmith at the hammer-in! FWIW, "A". |
| Big A - Friday, 02/17/06 05:54:49 EST |
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Marc: You are correct, most reins clips have to be taken completely off between heats. I have seen some tongs with one end of a rein drawn out and formed into an eye. Chain link clip was put in it. Handy, but is one per pair of tongs and is not able to be adjusted by sliding up and down the length of the closed reins. Personally I haven't used one in years. Simply a possible sales item for me. |
| Ken Scharabok - Friday, 02/17/06 07:04:26 EST |
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Tong Tension and reality. A smith will have a pretty good assortment of tongs, but many times a length of scrap is arc welded to the workpiece. It saves time, gets your hand away from the heat, and it eliminates the pesky tongs. Come on now; who hasn't done this? If you don't want to get to the arc welder, why not practice a lap weld? The link on the tong rein end, if used, goes to the other rein end...an angled, saw tooth edged arrangement. Therefore it is adjustable. This is not exactly like suturing forceps, but similar. I made a pair of tongs like this for a farrier who injured his left, tong hand, so he could still work without applying much pressure to the reins. |
| Frank Turley - Friday, 02/17/06 07:49:59 EST |
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On the subject of gloves, I used leather gloves in the past, but they absorb heat like crazy when they are wet, and shrink when exposed to heat. I started using the kevlar jerseys made by carolina glove. If you grab a piece of hot steel you still feel the heat, but don't get burned. Good stuff. |
| Mike Hill - Friday, 02/17/06 11:14:51 EST |
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Tongs and Holding Devices: First, consider that Vise-Grips were invented by a blacksmith looking for a better tong design. I know several smiths that use them for power hammer work and handling short heavy pieces for sculpture. If you use them for these purposes remember that the production Vise-Grips are no longer long enough for most hot work AND the springs fail due to the heat. However, you can purchase new springs from any GOOD Vise-Grip dealer. I do not use tong clips but some people use them regularly. The most comon types are just a C shape link that slides down the reins. This works beter than a ring as they are easier to get on and off. There is also the "universal" type that are plasma or lazer cut from from plate. I have never liked these but some people swear by them. Properly made tongs spring easily in the smiths hand and help hold the work type due to the spring. The spring also cushions the hand. If your tongs are too stiff and do not spring you cannot squeeze them and you have a VERY hard grip. This is not good for you and is not as safe as a springy pair of tongs. Many commercial tongs are made too short OR too heavy to spring easily. Many of the Pakistani tongs are this way. The OffCenter Brand tongs made by Grant Sarver are generaly better proportioned. They are lighter and springier than the imports. The best tongs are hand made with a continous taper to the reins so that they are strong AND springy. The heavy tongs are OK for power hammer work IF you use tong rings so that you do not have to use that "death grip" which as noted can eventualy cause you joint problems. Good tongs that fit around the work do not need nearly as tight a grip. I prefer bolt tongs for a lot of work and if I had any of the OffCenter chainmaker tongs I am sure I would use them a LOT. These have the gooseneck similar to bolt tongs and have V's in two directions. This makes them VERY convienient for a wide range of work. When working in your own shop there is NEVER an excuse for ill fitting tongs. The first task before every job is to select a pair of tongs suitable for the job OR to fit a pair of tongs to the work. Many new smiths think the original shape of their tongs is sacrosanct! It is NOT. If they do not fit snuggly heat and FIT them. When fitting tongs it is easy to squeeze the reins too close together. The trick I use is to heat the tongs, grab a sample piece with thme then clamp the jaws in the vise around the sample and adjust the reins to fit my hand. I open them a little too far then squeeze with one hand to the right fit. Let the tongs cool and you are ready to go. Tongs rings are also fitted to the job as well. As smiths we are tool makers. To adjust a tool to fit properly SHOULD be a no-brainer. |
| - guru - Friday, 02/17/06 12:10:48 EST |
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Just came across a William Foster (missing a horn) dated 1889. I'm picking it up for a young helper (especially since it's $50). I'll double-check the date tomorrow when I pick it up for the lad. Warm and windy on the banks of the Potomac. Visit your National Parks: www.nps.gov Go viking: www.longshipco.org |
| Bruce Blackistone (Atli) - Friday, 02/17/06 12:32:59 EST |
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Kevlar gloves. I also use Kevlars - mine resemble terry cloth. The other nice thing about Kevlar is they don't hold the heat. I remember the leather ones, once they got hot it was almost too late. You had to fling them off or the leather itself could burn you. With the Kevlar, I drop the hot piece if it gets too hot to hold and the gloves just cool back to body temp right away. |
| - Marc - Friday, 02/17/06 12:52:50 EST |
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Kevin; what I don't recall being mentioned is that as soon as you heat that cold rolled to red heat it loses it's cold rolled properties and becomes just like hot rolled---save for the original finish and heating red will result in a layer of scale anyway. So you are paying cold rolled price premium and getting hot rolled service. It is possible to buy hot rolled that has been pickled---had the mill scale removed. You might want to look at how decorative the twisting can be with a little bit of forging on the stock before twisting. Good luck and it's great to customize something to *your* spec! Thomas |
| Thomas P - Friday, 02/17/06 14:52:58 EST |
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Kevin: How up on twisting wrenches are you? I've used a pair of 18" pipe wrenches on 1" stock, (one from each side to counter-balance each other) but you need to make provisions to keep the teeth on the jaws from digging in. (I'd grind the teeth off with an angle grinder, but then what would I use on seriously stubborn trailer balls and nuts?) I also clamp the stock in a 6" jaw, 100# leg vise, just to make sure it's not going anywhere. Thirdly, I use soapstonne or chalk on the wrenches to mark the direction I want the stock to rotate. It seems silly, but in the heat of the moment, you can get confused and rotate it the wrong way, giving the second twist the same rotation as the first instead of a counter-rotation. Of course, if you can jig it up, the ultimate would be vises at each end and the twisting wrench(es) in the middle, with a lot of clearance. Hope these hints help. |
| Bruce Blackistone (Atli) - Friday, 02/17/06 15:23:49 EST |
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Welding is also taught in some continuing adult education centers. I took two classes, one through the City of Dayton and the other through a county. Both had lots of donated scrap and all the rods you could burn during the shop time. May have just been the instuctor policy, but the county one allowed you to bring in personal projects afterwards and use the shop set-up during class times. Both were well worth the rather low cost. |
| Ken Scharabok - Friday, 02/17/06 16:53:47 EST |
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Question on steel. Are the newer automotive leaf and coil springs still made out of 5160? Are they still o.k. for punches, etc? Thanks! |
| Ellen - Friday, 02/17/06 17:23:24 EST |
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URGENT NEWS: They have been working on the RR tracks around my house and I've got about 25 completely unused spikes with the paint still on them. The head is marked MC, not HC, and they have a dollar sign on them as well. These spike harden more than the normal HC spikes. |
| - Tyler Murch - Friday, 02/17/06 17:52:51 EST |
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Ellen, The newer springs are not necessarily 5160. ptree may know more about this. He has commented on the different axle steels in the past. In my 1970 Forging Industry Handbook, these steels are listed as springs: 1050; 4161; 5155; 5160; 9254; 9255; 9260; 51-B-60. |
| Frank Turley - Friday, 02/17/06 18:03:28 EST |
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Bruce Thank you for the ideas. I have two five foot sections to work with. I was thinking about fabbing up a wrench out of pipe and flat bar. Do you think a clamp style would work better than say a square tube made out of flat bar that would have about a sixteenth clearance. I could cut it off when I was done. Do you think two people twisting and one preson running the torches would be enough. Thanks for the help. |
| Kevin - Friday, 02/17/06 19:06:27 EST |
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Ellen, I have no experience with auto spring manufacturing. I do have an info source in the spring biz though and I will see if I can give him a ring on Monday and ask. If you have questions on axle materials, that I have recent experience with. Also Valve trim materials. |
| ptree - Friday, 02/17/06 19:19:44 EST |
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Thomas P I got two five foot sections at have the cost of a brand new tewlve foot piece. Will the cold rolled still keep its crisp edges or will they soften like hot rooled square stock is new? |
| Kevin - Friday, 02/17/06 19:20:39 EST |
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Kevin, if you are using rose bud torches, I'm sure you will get enough heat. However, in order to be more efficient, if you can, use some fire bricks, or even common house bricks for a backer. House bricks won't last as long, but for a one time operation will do fine. So, if you lay a few bricks down in a line, and another row standing up behind the first, you make an inside corner to reflect your flame back to the steel. Also, once to heat, that size stock will retain its heat for a bit, so you will have time to move it to a vice, and then twist it. |
| Bob H - Friday, 02/17/06 19:25:09 EST |
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Kevin- I do a lot of large scale twisting- In fact, I have an imported cnc twisting machine- but for certain effects, like what you are doing, which is called a reverse twist, we do it hot, even on the cnc machine. The edges of the cold rolled will stay crisp, especially using a rosebud for heat. If you have a sturdy enough vise, you can use a two handled wrench, with two guys on it, for twisting, and get quite a bit of leverage. For smaller stuff, like 1", I just use a 24" crescent wrench when twisting hot by hand. We did some 3" square tube, 1/8" wall, a few years ago- we had to make up twisting wrenches, and we did it with 3 people- 2 on each end of 2 ended wrench, the third on the rosebud. It worked great- the square tube squashes down when twisted, and looks very unique. |
| ries - Friday, 02/17/06 19:36:40 EST |
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Thanks Frank and Ptree, just need to make some punches, and a couple of chisels, looking for cheap. Grin! Ptree, I bless your name every time I sharpen a drill bit with the Starrett rule and angle measure you recommended. The Drill Doctor sits in the box, unused. |
| Ellen - Friday, 02/17/06 19:49:13 EST |
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Ellan what is the starrett rule? I ask only because I am thinking of getting the drill doctor but why if I don't need to and can just sharpen them on a bench grinder? John |
| John - Friday, 02/17/06 20:41:07 EST |
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Hi all hope the weather over there is reasonable and the snow storms have stopped. Here in Australia we are bracing for more bushfires with temperature expected to top 95 F. I hve recently come across mention of a couple of vidoes and dvds Armourer's Guild (Spring 2004): Fluting and Hot Raising and the 2003 fall session and mention that the Clifton Ralph power hammer vidoes had been transcribed to dvd Any body have any info on where I can buy these from ?? Thanks Greg House Bywong Australia |
| Greg - Friday, 02/17/06 21:14:10 EST |
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John, I can get you the model number of the Starrett tomorrow. It is a 6" steel rule, nicely graduated as all Starrett tools are, with a sliding end that has an angle on it which is the correct angle to sharpen twist drills to. It is also nicely graduated so you can keep the point centered (you do want STRAIGHT holes don't you...grin!). It's pretty intuitive to use and costs somewhere around $30 IIRC. You can order them online. When you get down to the small drills, 3/16 or less then sharpening becomes problematic at least for me, but those sizes are not expensive to replace. |
| Ellen - Friday, 02/17/06 22:05:16 EST |
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John, it is a #22C 6 4r Drill Point Gage. You can see one on Amazon, just look for Starrett Drill Point Gage. Retails there for $42.19. Other places may have it a tad cheaper. |
| Ellen - Friday, 02/17/06 22:10:46 EST |
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My drill point gage is made by General, and costs between $10 and $11 dollars. I think it is hardened stainless. I'm not trying to "one-up" Ellen in terms of price. The General is a servicible muli-purpose tool. I've been using mine for quite a few years. The angle is 59º. In the olden days of Manual Arts instruction, the lads were sometimes taught to cut, file, and mark the lip length rule on a shop-made sheet metal drill gage. |
| Frank Turley - Friday, 02/17/06 22:22:39 EST |
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Frank, I'm glad to know that. Had I known earlier I would have saved $30.....oh well. I have a couple of General 6" steel rules and they are just fine to use. The Starrett is 59 degrees also. |
| Ellen - Friday, 02/17/06 22:38:22 EST |
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To the best of my knowledge, the auto industry is still using reasonably high carbon standard steels for springs. I believe it was either 2005 or 2004, that I ran across an article in my monthly American Society for Metals publication announcing a new microalloyed automotive spring steel - I'm running on memory, but I believ it was relatively low carbon wit typical micro-alloying additions of nitrogen and niobium, maybe something else as well. This type of steel gains its strength from controlled cooling after hot forming. Its attractive to the auto industry because you can form a coil spring hot and then control cool it and bingo - you're done. Traditional forming would require hot forming, cooling, the quench and temper - requires more steps and energy. Only funny thing is that in 1980 I was working as a bar product development metallurgist for J & L Steel. One of my projects was to develop a micro-alloyed steel for the auto industry to eliminate traditional heat treating for springs. We were iniyially looking at nitrogen and niobium at varying levels and processing conditions. Only took about 24 years to get that one semi-commercilized. Note - just because there is announcement in an ASM publication of commercial availibility, doesn't mean it's been truly accepted by the marketplace for all applications. I expect most automotive coil springs are still in the 60 carbon range with a lot of them being 5160. |
| - Gavainh - Friday, 02/17/06 23:40:28 EST |
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After close to 2 years (don't laugh, I was a jeweler for the previous 35yrs....same sh$@t but smaller), as a bonified (as in, if I don't bend metal it's a lost day), blacksmith FNG, I was wondering, does anyone have any idea how many of us there are in the continental US ? |
| Thumper - Saturday, 02/18/06 00:30:44 EST |
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Gavainh, Thanks for the info. I didn't know when there was a change, just that auto springs either would be or already were some fancy stuff that you couldn't do the typical blacksmith trick on.....forge, anneal or normalize, harden, temper....I just didn't want to go spend $10 or whatever it is now for a coil spring that was useless.......bad for my Scots blood. Grin! Hi Ho, Hi Ho, to the junkyard I go...... Also didn't want to spend a bunch of $$$ on S-7 for this application, although that is a top quality punch/chisel steel. |
| Ellen - Saturday, 02/18/06 01:33:31 EST |
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Anyone know the country of origin of KING LA CA anvils? |
| Ken Scharabok - Saturday, 02/18/06 02:47:30 EST |
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KEN: Los Angeles, California? (That's a foreign country, isn't it ?) |
| 3dogs - Saturday, 02/18/06 04:49:04 EST |
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Greg - It's 1 degree above zero here in Michigan this morning. 5160 - I purchased some flat bar stock from a scrap yard this week and the superintendent told me it was 5160 from leaf springs. It is newer stock, not sure why it was being scrapped. I am fairly sure on the type as the scrap yard is attached to a steel mill and they seperate the piles for chemistry. Bob |
| EckfordBlacksmith - Saturday, 02/18/06 07:57:13 EST |
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Drill rules. The Starret as all things Starret is the very best. The General is also a workable tool. I prefer the Starret as I like my measuring tools to be the very best. I also have a General, and personally I don't think it is as easy to use. Not knocking the General. At the old plant where we had about 30 guys sharpening tools, maybe 10 doing drills, most of the tool and die guys had thier shop made drill measure from vocational school still in thier box. Most also had a Starret and used the Starret, and loaned out the shop made. We had several cam grinders and Sellars grinders, but for the large, say above 1 1/4", all the drills were sharped by hand. All the drills were lipped by hand as well. Under about 3/16", they were pretty much scrapped when dull. All this was back in the day of drilling out all the flow passages of several million pipe fittings and a hundred thousand valves a months, all with HSS twist drills. |
| ptree - Saturday, 02/18/06 09:52:46 EST |
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I have a sample of both a 41/4" by 7/8" by 1/4" grinding wheel, and the same size flap wheel coming from Hagemeyer. they are from "Duramark", a new Hagemeyer line made by norton for Hagemeyer. The pricing is good at $0.95 for the hard wheel. As soon as they come in I will use them to end of life and report. |
| ptree - Saturday, 02/18/06 10:07:55 EST |
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Ken, I believe that one of the vendors of them said they were Russian. |
| vicopper - Saturday, 02/18/06 11:32:25 EST |
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Making a lag or wood screw? I've tried to search the archives with no luck, I hope I'm not repeating a faq here... if so, a little guidance would be very much appreciated. The question: Is there a good way to make lag screw type threads without machining equipment (lathe etc.)? I keep wanting to make screw in pintles, ornamented lagbolt heads, hook and eye fasteners etc. I have several times made sort of square tapered "cut nail" style drive in solutions, but a good solid threaded connection would hold much better. In a couple of cases I've machine threaded the end with a die and put a nut on the back, but if the wood is thick that's not a good solution. There's also the holes and wood screws arrangement, but that seems inelegant and overy complex. Perhaps there's a wood screw thread cutting die of some kind available? thanks. John |
| John - Saturday, 02/18/06 11:37:52 EST |
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Ptree, I agree that Starrett is, well, salivatingly nice. But it's nice for folks to have a cheaper alternative to try to see if they like sharpening drill bits that way. Once one knows, they can always move up to the Starrett, and use the General for a loaner. I use my General 6" rules at classes and demos, in my shop it is the Starrett 6" rule, micrometer, and dial vernier (never could master the old scale). Eckford Blacsmith: thanks for the spring feedback. It's a relief to know the supply of affordable tool steel is still there.....1 degree above? I thought it was cold here yesterday. High of about 60. Brrrrrr! Of course, summer cometh and then the solar forge gets dusted off. |
| Ellen - Saturday, 02/18/06 11:47:00 EST |
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Primitive screws: John, You can twist a square bar and get a fair resembalance of a lag screw. If you are carefull you can paper the point and twist it as well. Most folks that need a good lag weld one on. |
| - guru - Saturday, 02/18/06 11:50:55 EST |
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LA King Anvils: These folks are big importers of Chinese tools to the best of my knowledge. I had one ebay dealer try to tell me they were manufactered in Los Angeles. Since the Chinese copies of the Russian anvil are difficult to tell from the real thing AND we have an article on the Russian many ebay dealers also tell buyers the Chinese anvils are Russian. Hey. . they were all communist countries at one time so there is no difference RIGHT? |
| - guru - Saturday, 02/18/06 11:56:58 EST |
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Hello I was thinking about getting my father a welder for his birthday. He wants a little wire welder that you plug in. I was telling him that a straight ac stick welder would be better and more of a value. He is a retired man and has time on his hands for projects now. Which one would you get him? Chuck in Omaha |
| Charles - Saturday, 02/18/06 12:00:28 EST |
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I have a Beaudry triphammer. I do not know the model or lb hammer it is. The anvil on it is 3 1/2 x 6 1/2 and weighs approx. 2400 pounds. Was wondering if someone can tell me by the info above, or can someone give me a e-mail address that I can send pictures to, so they can tell what I have. Thanks, Brian |
| Brian Girard - Saturday, 02/18/06 12:47:17 EST |
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Chuck in Omaha: I have 3 types of welders. One of them is a Lincoln 110V wire pack, I bought it at Home Depot for less than $400. I use it constantly. It is a good welder for smaller work, easier to use than a stick, and it is portable. Unless your Dad is going to be welding up 1/4" or heavier stock the wire welder is all he needs. Fewer fumes to mess up his lungs, too. And, it is what he asked for. Just my opinion, you'll get lots of them here! I bought the accessory for it where I can put a 10# roll of wire in it. I recommend that as well. |
| Ellen - Saturday, 02/18/06 14:02:00 EST |
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Chuck in Omaha: I agree with Ellen. I have the Lincoln Pro-Cor which is a flux-cored wire welder and I use it a lot. I also have the Lincoln 225 AC stick welder but I use it less than the wire welder. If he is tack welding alot, which I do, or if he works in lighter gages, the wire gun is great. For multi-pass welds, ya gotta get the stick welder. The wire welder and an auto-darkening helmet made a decent welder out of me. Now if it could only teach me to be a better blacksmith...... |
| quenchcrack - Saturday, 02/18/06 14:06:54 EST |
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Is there a good place to get bulk hammer handles? |
| Mike Hill - Saturday, 02/18/06 15:13:22 EST |
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Hello, I have no experience in the blacksmith industry and have a question totally unrelated but regarding coal or coke flashpoint properties. My sister wants to do a line of pottery using coal... she plans to add it to her pieces and then bake in kiln at various temperatures. I am afraid for her safety... what will happen? Is there any grade of coal that will stand up to these temperatures in a closed kiln. |
| Mige - Saturday, 02/18/06 15:13:31 EST |
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Mike Hill: Try eBay. Just do a keyword search on hammer handles. Anvilcrack: Have no intention of adding them to my eBay store. Just curious as one eBay seller insists they are not made in China. India perhaps? Frankie8acres avoids saying they are Russian since he knows if someone does a Google search on them it may lead to the comments in the anvilfire archives. I have been told the on-line version of Harbor Feight is a separate entity from the Harbor Freight stores. Same family, just run separately. Stores may or may not match catalog or on-line prices. |
| Ken Scharabok - Saturday, 02/18/06 16:13:48 EST |
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I just got a Hawkeye #2 trip hammer can you tell me anything about it. Pat. date 1903 |
| Mark Morrison - Saturday, 02/18/06 16:33:53 EST |
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Leaf spring steel: There is a spring shop here in town that supplies me with all I want. There are short pieces of New steel, some with a sticker or stencil mark. All those are 5160. The boss told me that the only alloy they buy. Of course on the removed from service scrap, who knows! Mark Morrison and Brian Giard: Post a picture or two at: forgemagic.com |
| - John Odom - Saturday, 02/18/06 16:55:50 EST |
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Ken I understand. Glad you are not carring those anvils. Maybe India. You would be surprised a very well known anvil is produced in India. Anyway happy forging and keep it up with your poor boy tools. |
| - anvilcrack - Saturday, 02/18/06 19:23:14 EST |
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Chuck, If your Dad wants a MIG, buy him a MIG. If your local welding dealer has MIller, Lincoln or Esab in your price range, by all means by from them. That way you have stfong local support from folks who know how to answer questions. If not, then I'd recommend buying froone of the better mail-order dealers who handle Miller or Lincoln. I have both AC/DC stick and MIG welders, and I use the MIG mostly these days. I wouldn't recommend an AC-only stick welder for a first welder, as there's a bit of a learning curve with the AC rods, for the most part. Much easier to learn MIG, particularly true MIG, as in Metal Arc Gas-shielded. The flux-core wire welders work fine, they just make more of a mess with spatter. The MIG unit I got is the Millermatic 175, a nice unit at a decent price. Gas-shielded or flux-core or flux/gas, will handle up to 5/16" in a single pass and heavier with multiple passes. It is a bit more than a hobby unit, but not an industrial size, either. I got it from an Ebay seller who proved to be exceptionally good to deal with and very helpful. Their store hwich handles Miller and Lincoln both, is: http://stores.ebay.com/Welding-Supplies-from-IOC |
| vicopper - Saturday, 02/18/06 19:50:06 EST |
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Ellen, As a matter of fact I have both a General and the Starret. I would loan out the General:) Ever see the Starret layout hammer? It has a little magnifing lens to let you see where the exact point of the prick punch is then you turn it and tap. The story is that it was made for the old man Starret when his eyes were failing, and they started to offer it. When the Idiots bought out the plant they scrapped EVERY single measuring tool they found when all the guys were laid off. Seems they did not find too much, as the Plant Engineer had heard that was thier plan. When he checked the guys tool boxs, he never seemed to see the Henry Vogt Machine Co. engraved on any tools! Course I may have not been too digilent in looking at BOTH sides of the tools these guys had worked with for 30 years+ The plant engineer had a tool box too! Brown and Sharp and starret make really nice tools. |
| ptree - Saturday, 02/18/06 21:26:48 EST |
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If I could have only one welder, it would be stick. A MIG the size of VICopper's would be my second choice, and one of the 110 units a distant third. But it depends on the work your dad would be doing. For welding auto bodies, for example, you almost have to have a MIG. Also, many folks can make passable MIG welds almost from the first pass, but learning stick takes a substantial time investment. So I agree with VICopper -- if your dad wants a MIG, buy him a MIG. Give him a stick he doesn't want and he might never learn to use it. If you do go stick, you might want to consider one of the inverter-based units, for example the Miller Maxstar 150. It would cost more than a regular AC/DC unit, but it would draw less power, so you might get some or all the difference back on wiring. It's DC only, but that's not really an issue for stick welding. And it's easily portable and can work from a 110 outlet at reduced power. If the welder will be used only in a shop with an existing 50 amp outlet, by all means buy a buzz box. But if you need to run a circuit to a distant shop, or use the welder away from the shop, it may be worth looking at inverter units. |
| Mike B - Saturday, 02/18/06 22:12:32 EST |
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Mige - The coal will release flamable gasses when heated, and turn into coke, whick does not look like coal.The gasses may burn off slowly, but then again they may ignite all at once [BOOM]. I don't think I would try it in an electrically heated kiln for sure, and I allso think She will be disapointed in the look of the coke. So the short answer is don't try it. |
| Dave Boyer - Saturday, 02/18/06 23:53:42 EST |
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Shop Sign. "The borrowin' tools are already on loan". |
| Frank Turley - Sunday, 02/19/06 00:00:43 EST |
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Anvilcrack: Now you have me curious. What anvil brand is made in India? |
| Ken Scharabok - Sunday, 02/19/06 00:46:10 EST |
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vaughn brooks |
| - anvilcrack - Sunday, 02/19/06 01:09:46 EST |
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Hey guys, I am looking for an answer to fusing or eutectic bonding of copper granules to a copper plate. I am a senior at the University of Central Oklahoma and working on project right now. I know if i can figure out how to lower the melting point of the copper by some means at the point of contact it should work. However I cant seem to find what mixture or substance to use for this. If you have any suggestions or If i am totally wrong with this let me. I would appreciate any advice you might have on this subject. Thanks Delvie |
| - Delvie McPherson - Sunday, 02/19/06 04:27:07 EST |
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Delvie: It may be hard to do with granules, but pressure would fuse two PLATES together at somewhat below the melting point without adding any other alloys. Furnace brazing compounds will fuse the granules to the plate at temperatures below the melting point of copper, but that will form an intermediate layer. The company that specializes in what You are trying to do is Eutectic Corp, Charlott, Nc. 28273 You may want to check with them, they pioneered surface alloying technology. |
| Dave Boyer - Sunday, 02/19/06 05:17:50 EST |
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King LA anvils: I had one ebay dealer try to tell me these were made in Los Angeles. . . Maybe there is a town in China by that name like the town in Japan called Usa. King is a big importer of low quality junk specificaly for the ebay market. frankie8acres is still pushing junk anvils with a line of hype and tricky use of photos. He finally ground and polished ONE to photograph because we forced him to stop using the photos he stole from anvilfire. However, he is NOT selling the pretty one he shows at the top of his ad. You have to look WAY down at the bottom for the current version with the diagonal hardy hole. Diagonal Hardy Holes: These are a Chinese patternmaker's invention to make it easier to core the hardy hole. No draft is required and any monkey can place the core without disturbing the sand. It is mechanicaly a VERY bad design and despite frankie8arces claim that it puts anvil tools "out of the way" it does not. What is DOES do is create the perfect condition to break the heel off the anvil as it both reduces the amount of material at that point AND presents sharp corners at the stress concentration point. Tools that are normally supported over the center of the anvil will not work or special ones must be made to work with the odd hardy hole orientation. The only non-conventional hardy hole design that makes sense is the one Grant Sarver proposed and used on his WC-JYH, a hex that old jack hammer or breaker bits fit into. This alows the recycling of this great source of tool steel parts with forged shoulders and the hex alows repositioning of simple hardies and fullers at convienient 30° angles (but not 90°). Design Decisions: Currently there are many anvils and swage blocks being cast where the patternmaker employed by the foundry is making design decisions. These guys are NOT tool designers or engineers. They only know what makes patterns the easiest to get out of the sand. Although this is a criteria for casting design it is NOT the most important. Patternmakers' decisions have resulted in a large number of totaly worthless swage blocks such as the Saltfork block which is parted down the middle of the working surfaces. Spend a week grinding on it or remachining the surfaces and you could have a working block. . . at VERY great expense. The center parting reduces the size of the flask needed and amount of sand used. But this destroys the usability of the side surfaces. Blocks are easily parted at the corners of either (or both faces) but this takes about 30% more sand. It is the ONLY and correct way to cast this shape. Similar pattern making resulted in the botched Czech copy of the Austrian pattern anvil from the Otto Schmirler book. In this case the patternmaker had no artistic skills at all and botched the design by moving the hardy hole out on the horn, putting undercuts in the body as well as reducing the clarity of details. All these changes completely missed the best points of the design. There are designers and then there are hacks. These guys are all hacks. . . |
| - guru - Sunday, 02/19/06 09:41:57 EST |
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Coal in Clay: Midge, see Dave Boyer's post above. The coal will melt, gas and burn. If the pieces have ANY thickness they would be destroyed by the expanding gases. The volatiles include gases as well as oils similar to fuel oil and others similar to tar. All have low flash points. There is an American Indian method of firing pottery in a smokey fire that produces a blackened surface than can be polished. . . I cannot remember the name of the method. It MAY be possible to do this using a coal fire but NOT with coal mixed in the clay. I would not do this in a good kiln as the ash from the coal will melt and stick to the kiln lining like glaze, Rolling the damp clay in powdered coal may produce interesting effects when fired but there will still be volatiles given off that will require very good ventilation. |
| - guru - Sunday, 02/19/06 09:57:54 EST |
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"La" means "spicy" in Chinese. (Actually, there are probably a bunch of words pronounced that way, but I only know one.) They have/had a pop music group called "La Mei" (Spicy Girls). I looked at one of those anvils with the diagonal hardy hole at Harbor Freight. It was counterbored (countercored?) from underneath within maybe 3/4" of the face. The diameter of the counterbore was greater then the diagonal dimension of the hardy hole. Don't know if that reduces the stress riser or just weakens the whole thing, but that's how it was. |
| Mike B - Sunday, 02/19/06 10:14:02 EST |
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Black Pottery. My wife is related to one of the San Ildefonso Pueblo, New Mexico potters, Adelphia Martinez. I have not witnessed the firing, but it is low fire, done on the ground. At a certain point in the firing, dried horse hockey (cow chips might work?)is put over the coals and pots and the whole is covered with sheet metal pieces to create a smokey surround for the work. A few years back, I hauled a bunch of sheet metal to Adelphia's place for this purpose. Santa Clara Pueblo is another village that uses this method. It is said that quite early, black pots and shards were found, but the means of doing it had been lost. By experimentation, a San Ildefonso woman known as Maria, rediscovered the method in the early 1900's. I'm sure that better descriptions than mine of the firing are in the literature, because Maria is renowned for her work, and her pieces are selling in the extreme high dollar range. |
| Frank Turley - Sunday, 02/19/06 10:59:49 EST |
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Black Pottery, Maria Martinez and her son Popovi Da were the acknowledged masters of the black pottery from the San Ildefonso, and taught me the method many years ago. Somewhere, I have slides I took of the whole process, but that was more than thirty years ago. Frank's description is basically correct. The pottery is made by hand-building from coils and the surface, when "leather hard" is burnished with an agate burnisher until it is shiny smooth. Any design work is done using a yucca brush and a bit or water, which leaves matte areas in the glaze. The firing is done in and on the ground, over a fire of horse "apples", although we determined that dried cowpies yield the same result. (I didn't have a handy source for the horse byproduct, but did have a friendly cattle rancher) A pit is dug for the fire, and the pots arranged over and around it on pieces of sheet metal; old license plates are traditional, but bare steel sheet works fine. After the fire is going, the entire stack is covered with more license plates, and then dirt shoveled on and around it, to seal off nearly all air. This results in the reduction firing atmosphere that is needed to make the normally reddish clay turn black. After several hours, when the firing is finished and the stack is cool, it taken apart and the finished pots retrieved. I have a couple that Mari and Po made, (beautiful work) and one that I made; far less than beautiful, but I'm a metalsmith, not a potter! Some may consider it sacrilege, but I use them, rather than display them. |
| vicopper - Sunday, 02/19/06 11:26:57 EST |
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vicopper, I don't consider it sacrilege. It's the same way with Navajo weaving. Some folks hang rugs on the wall. Others walk on them. |
| Frank Turley - Sunday, 02/19/06 11:37:21 EST |
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What is the recommended C-scale hardness of an anvil face and how does this compare with most hammers. In other words, should the hammer be soft enough to not mar the surface of the anfil when hit? |
| Ecrab - Sunday, 02/19/06 14:31:29 EST |
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Delvie McPherson: Look for a book of phase diagrams for non-ferrous alloys in the Engineering/Metallurgy section of your university library. One of the materials science geeks could probably help you. |
| quenchcrack - Sunday, 02/19/06 14:37:41 EST |
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SS fireplace screen, I would like to use stainless steel 304 mesh for a fireplace screen. It is very bright and shiny,is there a simple effective way of dulling or darkening this material that that would hold up in this application? I am trying to avoid mild steel mesh with high temp black spay paint,which I found fussy/time consuming to apply, and left me wondering when I'd get a call back because the screen had sprouted orange. Thanks, Andrew |
| - Andrew T - Sunday, 02/19/06 16:03:49 EST |
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Oxidizing SS: Andrew, If you heat SS to a red heat with a torch you get a nice permanent grey-black like normal scale on steel. This is a durable finish. However, in some cases it will alow some minor discoloration due to rust. The scale will take flat black paint and not show where paint scraps off like bright SS would. |
| - guru - Sunday, 02/19/06 16:42:43 EST |
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Brian's Beaudry, Sounds like it's a 100lber. The specs I have are 3.5"x6.5" dies, height to center of drive shaft 5'4", speed of hammer 325, size of belt pulley 14"x4", appox HP 3 , weight 2500lbs. Mine is an older 200lber, it is called a #7. There is a very faint "7" cast on the slope on the sow block that I did not notice for a long time. It also has a brass plaque with a serial number that starts with a "7" (7093). Mabey the 93rd #7 they made? I think Beau's numbering system is #2 50lb, #3 75lb, #4 100lb, #5 125, #6 150, #7 200, #8 250, #9 300, up to 500lbs. My #7's head alone, weighs 180 lbs and 210lbs with the die. Give me a call if want to chat, 563 382 4907, Andrew |
| - Andrew T - Sunday, 02/19/06 16:43:44 EST |
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Thanks for the reply, I had considered that technique, but was concerned about warping the screen which can be difficult to stretch flat. Any cold process ideas? I will do test pieces but it is spendy material. |
| - Andrew T - Sunday, 02/19/06 17:03:39 EST |
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Old license plates: Anyone trying VIcopper's method may want to note that these were STEEL plates not modern aluminium ones. In those days you were issued NEW plates every year and old ones rusted pretty badly depending on the part of the country you lived in. The fancy aluminium ones with little stickers are relatively new (to us old fogies) and now almost a lifetime plate. The Virginia ABANA plates I just retired had been in use since about 1982 (25 years) and been on my Dodge pickup three Dodge vans and a Mitsubushi station wagon. I finally got tired of paying $20 extra every year to advertise ABANA (that's $500 of non-dues support they have gotten from me and was added to the Virgina highway fund. . .). |
| - guru - Sunday, 02/19/06 17:12:03 EST |
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CBore under hardy hole: This is recycled work. The original patterns had a round bottom and a square top. When they changed to a draftless pattern they continued to use the old core boxes. So the core print is round on the bottom and diagonal/square on the top. In most good modern cast anvils they leave the hardy hole out and machine and broach from solid. The reason is that if you start with a cored hole you will wreck more tools drilling embeded sand than drilling the entire hole in clean metal. . . Ocassionaly a round core is used to thin the underside of the heel because it is difficult to broach a deep hole. Yes, the oversided Cbore in the diagonal hardy hole anvils weakens the heel further. Not only are these junkers made from inferior materials but the patterns are lousey. The sad thing about cast anvils is that for the exact same money they can be BEAUTIFUL works of art. Wonder what kind of spice you put on a Chinese CI anvil? Hmmmm. . . you use lime in the out house. . . |
| - guru - Sunday, 02/19/06 17:30:26 EST |
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Forge Welding A typical lap weld of A36 usually takes me three heats to "fade" the scarf points and other shuts. I like to make the finished piece look clean. I don't like to use sparking heats for the finish heats. Sweating heats work all right, and one must move quickly. My experience is to use light or moderate rapid blows when working on scarf points. Hitting too hard may cause shear and drawing rather than cohesion. In taking two or three heats, I will upset for scarfs 1¼ to 1½ times the parent stock thickness. If you take a sparking heat for starters, you will lose stock in sparks and scale, both a weight loss. The other loss is through hammer reduction, not a weight loss. At a Whitaker workshop, Francis leaned over the anvil and said "What do you want to see?" I asked for a T-weld, but one done on the diagonal, so that the result would show one acute angle and one obtuse. Francis said, "Thank you, Frank." He prepared the scarfs, got the weld, and said, "Less is more; one heat!" I still have the piece. The shuts show, but the weld appears to be solid. Further, I confess that I did not know how to prep for such a weld. That is why I asked for the demo. We continue to learn. |
| Frank Turley - Sunday, 02/19/06 18:10:03 EST |
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I am in absolute despair since I saw a "pencil torch" in a hardware store one day and bought it. 4 pencil torches later, I am very eager to know if there is such a thing as a working "pencil torch". I cant seem to find one that works properly. If you have any ideas where i can get one that works, please let me know. |
| - nippon - Sunday, 02/19/06 18:50:07 EST |
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Nippon: Go to your local welding supply store and get a small air-acetylene torch. It'll set you back a minimum of $350, maybe more. There ain't no such thing as a free lunch, but if you pay, you can play to your heart's content. |
| Alan-L - Sunday, 02/19/06 19:45:48 EST |
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Re: Pencil torch Yes, goodones exist, I have seen them, and used them. The one I used, once, but did not own was a Weller Brand. |
| - John Odom - Sunday, 02/19/06 19:45:53 EST |
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Anvil Hardness: This is a tricky question. Old anvils had high carbon steel face plates that were hardened as hard as possible. Due to the shallow hardenability of plain carbon steels the surface MAY be as hard as 62Rc on small anvils but 1/4" below the surface it may be much softer. Due to difficulty quenching and the residual heat the larger an anvil the softer the face. Also due to the loss of hardness the deeper you go into the face it is bad practice to machine the surface of these anvils. Modern cast anvils vary greatly in material from the nearly mild steel of the Russian cheapies to the high alloy manganese steel anvils cast in the US. The high alloy anvils are deeper hardening steels than the old plain carbon plated anvils. The steel is also stronger through the anvil body compared to old wrought iron bodies. So these anvils do not need to be nearly as hard as the old anvils. Due to chippng being an issue on cast anvils the manufacturers try to keep them as soft as can be used. This often means as soft as 52 Rc. I like a really hard anvil but understand the chipping issue. My big anvil is an old Kohlswa and my first anvil was a small Kohlswa. Both had chipping issues when I got them. However, I work a LOT on the edges and have never chipped one. These anvils were some of the hardese I have ever tested. I do not worry about chipping as most chipping is from miss strikes with heavy sledges. But modern makers worry about it due to warranty issues and libility issues. Hard sharp spalls come off at bullet speeds and can be VERY dangerous, especially if they strike leg arteries. Ideally both hammer and anvil are exactly the same hardness. But modern hammers tend to be harder than modern anvils. So we learn to work more carefully and dress the corners of our hammers better. |
| - guru - Sunday, 02/19/06 19:49:50 EST |
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Thanks for the input on lag screws! I had thought about trying a taper and twist method but thought maybe there might be something better. I'll give that a go and see how well it works out. It has to be better than the "cut nail" approach. Thanks again. Primitive screws: John, You can twist a square bar and get a fair resembalance of a lag screw. If you are carefull you can paper the point and twist it as well. Most folks that need a good lag weld one on. - guru - Saturday, 02/18/06 11:50:55 EST |
| John - Sunday, 02/19/06 20:13:01 EST |
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Regarding lag screws and similar -- I have been thinking about this recently, and I think that forging a round bar to an egg-like cross-section with a point at the small end (teardrop cross-section, I guess) and then twisting down tight with a good even heat ought to make a really fine lag screw. I will try to remember to give this a shot in the upcoming week and report back. Cool and pouring down rain in Kaneohe, Hawaii. |
| T. Gold - Sunday, 02/19/06 21:06:29 EST |
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RE:Anvil Hardness, thanks Guru..At present I have a mind to make an anvil out of some scrap tool steel I can get my hands on and round out my work with some purchased stake anvils. What I do is small scale forging anyway, but I'm thinking something for a 4x6 table as thick as I can get it. |
| Ecrab - Sunday, 02/19/06 21:18:29 EST |
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Smiths in the bible? I have found the references in Samuel and Isaiah about smiths, but I thought there was another reference. For some reason Tubal Cain, or Tubla Cain comes to mind. Any help on the reference in KJV? |
| - ccharper - Sunday, 02/19/06 21:34:46 EST |
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Anvil Hardness: Nimba website says their hardness is 50 to 52 Rockwell. Does anybody know what the hardness is on a Euroanvil? Also, seems like Laurel Forge used to cast anvils and swage blocks, couldn't find any of that on their website today. Thanks! |
| Ellen - Sunday, 02/19/06 21:50:52 EST |
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Genesis 4:22 |
| JimG - Sunday, 02/19/06 22:08:33 EST |
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Soundproofing: A friend of mine is moving from a remote location to a more densely populated area. His new workshop will be a large steel clad building. How can he best protect his neighbors from the noise and vibration of his Phoenix powerhammer? |
| Bob G - Sunday, 02/19/06 22:25:57 EST |
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Lag screws. Let me know how you all fare on the twisting business. In the "olden days", I worked part-time as a conservator at the the Museum of New Mexico, and I took apart and cleaned flintlocks and percussion rifles and pistols. The wood screws were all different from each other. They were hand filed individually. This method is shown in the video, "The Gunsmith of Williamsburg". P.S. I forge welded a pistol barrel out of Swedish wrought iron yesterday. A helper held a tapered mandrel made of S7. "What a deal, Schlemiel!" |
| Frank Turley - Sunday, 02/19/06 22:41:26 EST |
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Ecrab - Anvil hardness: If I were doing what You are going to do I would go for 56 to 58 RC, and put a radius around all the edges. I would ABSOLUTLY stay below 60RC. I have an old Swedish cast steel anvil, different [no name]brand from Jocks, it is hard - and chipped on 1 edge. Had it been radiused properly from the start, it might not be chipped. |
| Dave Boyer - Sunday, 02/19/06 23:04:55 EST |
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What about making a pair of clapper dies to thread lag screws? They might be tricky to make, but I'd think you could rough them out and then close them hot on a commerecial lag screw (or several) to make the threads. The size and shape of the screw blank would be critical, so maybe a another set of dies or swages to help get that right before using the threading dies? |
| Mike B - Sunday, 02/19/06 23:23:43 EST |
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Delvie McPherson - my initial thoughts are "sinter" in a hydrogen or nitrogen-hydrogen atmosphere. You can stay below melting temp and get solid state bonding. Or do the same in a vacuum furnace. Typical temperatures for iron powders would be 1950 to 2050 degrees Fahrenheit - copper would need less temperature. My WAG without looking at any metallurgy books would be about 1750 F. You'll need contact and temperature in a reducing atmosphere to make the bond - pure hydrogen or a nitrogen hydrogen mix will provide the cleanest bond. DO NOT TRY ADDING HYDROGEN OR NITROGEN-HYDROGEN MIXES TO FURNACES NOT DESIGNED FOR IT!!! Hydrogen has an extremly wide flammibility/explosive range for both temperature and oxygen or air. Frank - The Gunsmith of Williamsburg - great video! |
| - Gavainh - Sunday, 02/19/06 23:39:06 EST |
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Mortising chisels and such... I'm working on making a mortising chisel for general woodworking, and found some interesting pictures of a vietnamese smith at work. Note the "tongs" used in this picture. They look to be very short, only a few inches in length. It an interesting idea. Does anyone know more about how these work? The picture is pretty lean on details. Additional pointers on methods of making a tanged mortising chisel would be of help. http://www.antiquetools.com/cgi-bin/bigpix?Pic=3 |
| - Tom T - Monday, 02/20/06 00:46:34 EST |
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Delvie McPherson, I missed your question earlier. Gavainh gave you some good advice regarding solid state bonding. It works pretty well in just a nitrogen atmosphere, allowing you to develop a bond at a temperature about 25°F below the melting point of the copper. It is critical that the base and the granules be absolutely totally clean for it to work, though. I did a fair amount of granulation work with silver, gold and copper when I was in college, using a homemade electric kiln and purging it with nitrogen. I found that the best method for cleaning the granules was tumbling them with crushed walnut hulls and some 400 mesh silicon carbide grit. After tumbling, they were rinsed with acetone followed by a weak solution of boric acid in alcohol. In retrospect, I doubt that the boric acid wash did anyting for the granulation process, as essentially all of it was rubbed off the granules before they were placed on the sheet. The copper base was cleaned by sanding to 600 grit, microscopically crosshatching the surface, followed by an acetone rinse. Then it was wiped with the boric acid mixture. The granules were placed on the base and put in the kiln. The kiln was flooded with nitrogen and turned on. The nitrogen was set to feed a couple of liters a minute of gas into the kiln during the heating. I didn't use any hydrogen because I was more than a little bit afraid of launching myself into the afterlife with it. The kiln was brought up to about 25 or 35°F below the melting point of the copper and held there for several hours. The longer it was held at heat, the higher percentage of granules that would fully bond. I can't recall any heats lasting more than about six hours, but that may be faulty memory more than fact. I do recall that one time I forget to have the nitrogen running after the initial purge and that project was ruined. Copper just has an incredible affinity for oxygen. This process worked much better with gold and silver than it did with copper, as I recall. It also worked better if the granules were slightly flattened before placing, which gave them a larger contact area. I tried it using flux instead of the inert atmosphere, with less satisfactory results but some slight success. I think that's why I used the boric acid wash on it; probably more superstition than science, but it made me feel better. (grin) |
| vicopper - Monday, 02/20/06 01:59:06 EST |
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ccharper: Go to www.half.com and look for a copy of a book titled The Return of the Blacksmiths. It is basically a religion-oriented book full of references in the Bible on ironworking. |
| Ken Scharabok - Monday, 02/20/06 02:02:58 EST |
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What is a Kinyon-style airhammer? It is what will be built during the SOF&A workshop next month. Apparently will be valved to either hit once (as a striker) or multiple strokes. On anvils, keep in mind in 1908 Hay-Budden switched production techniques from the top plate to a plateless top half. Richard Postman has indicated to me there is some evidence late production Peter Wrights were also plateless. Far as I know all Trentons have a top plate. |
| Ken Scharabok - Monday, 02/20/06 08:20:45 EST |
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I found my answer on a Kinyon-style airhammer via a Google search. For a 50-pounder, what size air compressor is recommended. Right now I only have one of those small (I think 5-gallon) shop ones. |
| Ken Scharabok - Monday, 02/20/06 10:24:46 EST |
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Ken, Ron Kinyon advertises his air hammer fittings in a kit and lists his phone number in the ad in the Anvils Horn, our local group's magazine. It is 480 986-8576. Call him and ask any questions you like. He is a nice guy. |
| Ellen - Monday, 02/20/06 12:07:55 EST |
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I went to see a farrier about working with him, but it was made clear that it was a lunchtime interview. I took nothing but my body dressed in clean clothing. I washed my face, combed my hair, and used mouth wash. I passed. The next time I saw him, I was in work clothes. We were in Southern California where farriers do not wear gloves or face masks. My mentor, Al Kremen, was a hot shoer, but not all shoers are. Some are cold shoers, have a large inventory of keg (manufactured) shoes, beat on them cold, and nail on. Farriers and gloves. In winter weather, I wore thin, deerskin gloves. You can't handle the tools with floppy work gloves or gauntlets. |
| Frank Turley - Monday, 02/20/06 12:20:05 EST |
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Ken, For a 50# Kinyon-type air hammer, you really should have a 5hp compressor, preferrably a two-stage type that puts out around 15 cfm @175 psig, and that has a 60 to 120 gallon receiver. You can get by with a little 2-3 hp shop compressor, the sort that are rated at about 6cfm @90psig, but you will not be able to run the hammer flat out for more than about 10-15 seconeds before you outstrip the compressor's capability to recover. Most of the Kinyon-type hammers are built using a 2" diameter cylinder, which is about as small as you can get away with for 50#. If you use a bigger diameter cylinder, it uses more volume of air per cycle, but you can also use lower pressure. That way, a 2-1/2" cylinder running on 80 psig could do the same work that a 2" does on 100 psig, but it would use greater volume. Some of the inexpensive 60 gallon upright compressors are single-stage types that will deliver 10-12 cfm @90 psig, and cost about half of what an industrial 5hp Ingersoll-Rand T-30 two-stage costs. With lower pressure, you have less wear on the components, too. Be sure you size the other valving in the system accordingly; never scrimp on the c.v. of your valves, or you'll regret it. |
| vicopper - Monday, 02/20/06 12:44:53 EST |
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vicooper: I will bring home whatever the SOF&A group has designed. Bob Cruikshank said they were merging three plans together (trying the incorporate the best features of each). Some very knowledgeable machanical engineers in the group (e.g., Hans Peot) so I have to make the assumption they know what they are doing. Two large 220v compressors were in the local ag auction last Saturday. However, it was SOOOOOO cold, it would be some time before they got to them, they came with no history or warranty that I just came home. Fourth year they have had this auction. Nice weekend before and after, miserable weather that weekend (and worse on Saturday). I don't plan to do heavy-duty work. For example, I can get three hot cut hardies out of a flea market log splitting wedge. You can make a nice little handled hot cut or punch out of an old ballpeen hammer. I don't know the specifications on my shop compressor. Label has been worn off. Does hold pressure up to 125 pounds. Will have the hammer here, and hopefully in operation, for the Anvilfire hammer-in. |
| Ken Scharabok - Monday, 02/20/06 13:14:33 EST |
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Euroanvil Hardness = 44 Rockwell, Euroanvil Specs |
| - Tyler Murch - Monday, 02/20/06 13:26:57 EST |
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I'm building my first coal forge. I've had 30 hrs instruction and am planning hobby level, general blacksmithing. I was thinking of a 12x14 firepot from Centaur, a metal/firebrick stand for the firepot, a 164 CFM blower from Blacksmith's Depot, a Super Sucker hood from plans here, a 12" flue 18' straight (14' inside, 4' outside), low pressure cap. Does this sound like it will work, especially will it smoke? Any thoughts on parts selected? Thanks, |
| Jeff - Monday, 02/20/06 13:46:41 EST |
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Jeff: Sounds like a good setup to me. I wouldn't worry about the firebrick, though, they tend to make the metal underneath rust out. My forge is the Centaur pot dropped in a 24"x36" sheet of 3/8" steel, 1" angle on three sides, with the whole thing resting on wooden legs and frame. On rare occasion the front top crossmember of the frame will get hot enough to weep pine sap, but then it's a cheap pine 2x4, and those leak sap at 90 degrees on up. The blower is a good size, the chimney and hood are good sizes too. Make the hole in the hood as small as you can get away with. It should be no bigger than the firepot, and personally I'd go with 10" square as a starting point. You may also want to add a small half-hood at the top of the opening. I tacked a 3" wide bit of sheet steel there on mine to fight downdrafts from the rest of the shop. If warmed up with a half-sheet of newsprint in the hood before lighting the coal, you'll never smell the coal at all. My hood sucks the flame off the top of the firenot only sideways, but slightly DOWN into the hood! Have fun! |
| Alan-L - Monday, 02/20/06 14:20:50 EST | </