Blacksmithing and Metalworking Q&A : anvilfire Guru page : Jan 22

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Has anyone tried converting a disel welder/generator over to biodisel? Has anyone tried? It is hard to find any information on this type of retro fitting. Does the difference in energy density between the two fuel sources casue significant differences in output? The idea occured to me when I began to notice disel costing more than premium. They just put a biodisel station about 1 mile from my house. Thanks Tim

Tim - Friday, 02/01/08 02:05:20 EST

Tim: A diesel engine in a generator should not be essentially different than one in a vehicle. You should be able to use biodiesel without any significant problems. Two things to watch out for are clogged fuel filters (as the bio-part will solidify crude in the tank) and possible deteriorating rubber fuel lines if they are not bio-friendly.

I have friends in IN who run two early 80's VWs (sedan and pickup) on homemade biodiesel, mixing strained waste vegetable oil with diesel. Mix runs from about 80/20 bio-diesel/diesel in summer to about 20/80 in winter. They figure they average about a 50/50 mix throught year.

If the bio-part becames too high it can cause fuel jelling during cool/cold weather, requiring a separate tank for it and another smaller one for straight diesel. The engine is started on straight, switched over to heated bio, then back to straight for a couple of miles before shutting the engine off.

When I fill up my diesel tractor I top it off with one gallon of new vegetable oil. More expensive than straight diesel, but the engine just seems to run better. I have had to tighten a number of fittings as apparently the bio disolved crud which had formerly sealed them.

Just do a Google search on biodiesel (note spelling).

Ken Scharabok - Friday, 02/01/08 03:20:48 EST

Atha Hammer: Matt, Everything marked "Atha" is in the realm of tool collectors and prices are much more than just "used tools".

- guru - Friday, 02/01/08 07:32:10 EST

Threads on Vice: Mile BR has it correct. The only disadvantage to fine threads is that they wear faster and need closer tolerances. In the case of a vice you may be creating higher forces than the vice can take but I have found this to be true on most vices as-built.

- guru - Friday, 02/01/08 07:36:30 EST

Spalling & Mushrooming:

Not only can a spalled piece of metal rip you up, but it's HOT. We had an incident in the BGOP where one of the folks was hit with a red-hot spalled piece of chisel from across the room, it had lost some velocity, but he did get a minor burn on his face.

All of that energy goes somewhere!

All of the descriptions of anvils with "sharp edges" was mostly an indicator that the object in question wasn't abused by being too soft and mushrooming or chipping from being over-hard. I've seen the phrase applied to new anvils as a selling point; but that only means that you can radius the edges to the degree and in those areas that suit your style. In English "sharp" is a term of virtue as well as an adjective.

Rainy, windy and messy on the banks of the Potomac.

Visit your National Parks: www.nps.gov

Go viking: www.longshipco.org

Bruce Blackistone (Atli) - Friday, 02/01/08 10:22:21 EST

On Thursday I asked a question about fumes from acid. You've all scared me enough now that I think I'll get it out of my shop altogether. Mabey I'll use it outside where there is plenty of ventilation. I appreciate your insite.
Dan

Dan - Friday, 02/01/08 13:23:57 EST

Tim, I would highly recommend checking out a biofuels forum. If you do a google search you should plenty of info. Mixing Veg. oil with petro diesel does not produce biodiesel.

Jason Mecum - Friday, 02/01/08 13:47:20 EST

Dan--just incase it was not mentioned--when you dilute acid Always pour acid into water and never pour water into acid as you can cause an explosion. I am alos a believer in MSDS (material ssftey Data sheet) and inparticular for acids. They will give you all the safety information and they are great to have in the event 911 is called for an accident. Most MSDS are available online or free from manufacturers.

Tim - Friday, 02/01/08 13:52:59 EST

Regarding My post above. There is alot more involved, titration, etc. To produce biodiesel. Good luck.

Jason Mecum - Friday, 02/01/08 13:53:49 EST

Common Chemicals: There are some common household products that should never be mixed. Chlorox bleach will release copious amounts of chlorine gas when other chemicals are mixed with it. It has proven lethal in a number of cases where folks wanted to get something extra clean and combined products. READ that label.

Gasoline, something we all deal with almost every day is used to make the most powerful non-nuclear bomb. Do you stand next to the nozzle breathing those toxic fumes when you fill up? Or do you wisely set the trigger and stand back a few feet?

It is said that chemicals used on suburban lawns far exceed the amounts allowed on any farm. The price some folks pay for a beautiful lawn is a toxic zone that children should not play on. . .

- guru - Friday, 02/01/08 14:58:10 EST

Hi Guru,

I'm making armour for sometime now, and dooing some blacksmithg too, but now I have to impersonate a Roman military blacksmith from the 1th Century AD.

I have to set up a forge, got plenty of information (tools etc), for only 1 thing...

How did athe actual field forge looked like... a bowl standing on a tripod? or just a hole in the ground, or build from stone??? What kind of bellows did they use?

Any help is appreciated.

I have to work in the Dutch archeology themepark "Archeon"

Thanks.

( my website: http://anytime.pixis.nl )

Duco de Klonia - Friday, 02/01/08 17:02:31 EST

hi i work in a blacksmithing\spring making\slasher blade making\general steel works. any way we have a fly press there and ive been using it for years. the stats u have arent entirely true though. it says on:http://www.anvilfire.com/power/... that it makes strokes between 10-40pm but its more like 10-85pm .This guy:GRANT nakedanvil@forgetools.com: is right on the money! also these type machines are simply the best machine for "reseting" leaf springs (increasing the camber of the spring thus making it sit higher in the vehicle) the dimensions of ours is approx 3.5meters high, about 1.5meters wide at the top part with the discs about 1meter in diameter. in closing id have to say this machine is the most versatile machine for working metals ive ever encountered (though it took 4 years to completely master).

Josh - Friday, 02/01/08 17:21:33 EST

Duco, a "field forge" would probably be a hole in the ground---easily built on a march. One at a fort would be more extensive. Bellows probably be the animal skin with opening version, paired and with a seperate individual to "power them". Fuel would be charcoal of course and the anvil not very large---there is a very nice one in the museum at Bath England.

Thomas

Thomas P - Friday, 02/01/08 18:16:07 EST

Dan, Try using vinegar in place of muratic acid. Takes a bit longer but is safer and won't rust your tools.

quenchcrack - Friday, 02/01/08 20:07:37 EST

There is some concern in using biodisel in an engine with a distributer pump like a CAV or ROTO, as there is less lubrication with the bio fuels than with petrolium. From what I have read inline pumps like the BOSH tolerate bio better. The lack of sulfer may cause seals that were swelled by previous exposure to sulpher to shrink and leak. The lower energy in bio shouldn't be a problem unless the unit is marginal on power at full output with normal fuel.

- Dave Boyer - Friday, 02/01/08 22:26:11 EST

Some folks on another forum are trying to identify a whatsit, and I thought someone here might help. It was found in an old blacksmith shop in England that is being cleaned out and restored, and can be viewed at http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=87544&id=16076225390. Any ideas?

Peter Hirst - Saturday, 02/02/08 11:01:37 EST

Peter Possibly a chain making apparatus. The chain hangs on that so as to avoid a pile of hot chain on the floor. I didn't know either but have friends who do.

- philip in china - Saturday, 02/02/08 18:42:40 EST

Philip: Exactly whay I thought, but nobody believes me. Could you forward the link to friends who might know?

thanks

Peter Hirst - Saturday, 02/02/08 23:52:56 EST

Odd Tool, Looks like a chain makers fixture. They had lots of odd special tools that are not all in the book. See our review of "Chain Making in the Black Country" under rare and out of print. You can often get this one from Richard Postman.

- guru - Sunday, 02/03/08 00:10:50 EST

Peter Hirst,
I would offer that some vissual examination of the item provides some clues.
1. The double nut at the small end of the spindle indicates to me that either something else was connected there, possibly mad of a material that rotted away was attached, or there was rotation expected and the double nut was a locking device.
2. The slightly taped bottom of the spindle with what apears to be a slot for a locking wedge or key also indicates that motion was expected.
3. The 4 evenly spaced legs, the large thrust collar on the spindle all suggest to me something to be a center support for a large device, perhaps a carosel. Imagine this at the top of the center pole of a traveling carosel, and once erected one would put either solid bars or chains onto the hooks to support the rotating carosel. Could also have been for a similar layout but for an industrial device.
This item does not cry out to me as a chain making device or aid. Too many legs, that thrust collar and so forth.

ptree - Sunday, 02/03/08 10:43:08 EST

I want to make a pair of false jaws for my vise to hold round stock horizontaly - is there as simple design?

Thanks

adam - Sunday, 02/03/08 12:29:55 EST

Adam-- How about welding some angle iron onto some plate with clips?

Miles Undercut - Sunday, 02/03/08 12:38:05 EST

I'm writing a fantasy story and one of the main characters is a weaponsmith. What type of hammer would someone (in medival times )use to craft a waraxe or a sword?

Brian Shafer - Sunday, 02/03/08 13:21:50 EST

What chemicals are used to etch a damascus blade ?

Earl Aldrich - Sunday, 02/03/08 13:59:24 EST

Brian,

The same sort of hammers that are used today for the same purpose. The hammer hasn't changed much in the last several hundred years, really. Different smiths have differing preferences in hammers.

Earl Aldrich,

One of the most commonly used is an aqueous solution of ferric chloride (FeCl). Other acids such as muriatic (HCl) will also work, as will vinegar (5% acetic acid in water). Different steel alloys react to etchants differently, so most makers experiment until they find what they like for a particular instance.

vicopper - Sunday, 02/03/08 14:14:43 EST

Hammer: Probably a square crosspein like in the Mastermyr find. Simplest shape to forge. The weight would likely be 2# - 3#

adam - Sunday, 02/03/08 15:02:34 EST

Hammer: for a slightly later medieval hammer pic look into "Cathedral Forge and Waterwheel" Gies & Gies; they have several pictures of medieval smiths.

Remember that as a weapon smith he will be working in a good sized town, probably on a street with other weapon or armour smiths. he will have 3+ assistants---which may include his wife and or daughter! and he will buy his materials not make them---save maybe for carburizing. This was the way it was done in medieval Europe.

(Also don't forget that he will be using real wrought iron and so working it *very* hot compared to modern steels!)

Thomas

Thomas P - Sunday, 02/03/08 15:24:13 EST

The odd tool looks similiar to a hanger I saw holding up a very large chandelier in an English castle. Sorry to say I can't remember which one. It was a huge multi-tiered wrought iron master piece designed to hold the large wax candles which were at least 4" diameter each. The whole thing was a true work of art and must have weighed tons. I assume it was original to the structure although so many castles have been rebuilt over the centuries it is hard to tell.

Robert Cutting - Sunday, 02/03/08 15:27:20 EST

Guys! Guys! Jeez, wouldn't a fantasy weaponsmith at least have a hammer that he found frozen in a cleft in a rock, left there by Thor, who had forged it himself from magic ore that he had smelted in the crypt of the Great Wizard himself? Wouldn't this aspiring weaponsmith have to perform three deeds of derring-do before the hammer came loose? Would not the hammer then have to be blest by the... zzzzz... sorry, I musta dozed off there. You get the idea. Let's just suggest he uses your basic standard issue Tolkien/Rowling .50 cal. anvilbasher, lion gut thong-wrapped haft, with full-time Druidic assist and be done with it. Oh, and it comes with a apprentice, a sylph named Ariel.

Miles Undercut - Sunday, 02/03/08 15:28:16 EST

Drat! I forgot! The sylph doesn't have too many clothes, as a rule. That's okay, 'cause she has a stunning resemblance to __________ (insert name of current hot starlet here). She sees visions, too. And she has a familiar: the cutest ittle monkey oo ever did see.

Miles Undercut - Sunday, 02/03/08 15:34:02 EST

Miles
This place would not be half of what it is without you.

- Tom H - Sunday, 02/03/08 16:14:57 EST

Miles, where can I get one of those scantly clad sylphs to assist in my shop? All I can find are smelly old guys and teenage boys who would rather play D &D

Ptree - Sunday, 02/03/08 16:51:41 EST

Tom H-- Many thanks, sir! As the rodeo announcer says when the bronc rider doesn't make the buzzer, your applause is his (my) only reward. What Jock pays barely covers new pixels.
Ptree-- I am trying to work my way toward something on the order of to thine own sylph be true and thus it must follow, but.... Wait!! I think them sylphs usually appear in the misty, mystic fog that sets in just after you quaff the mead from the magick tankard.

Miles Undercut - Sunday, 02/03/08 17:37:20 EST

Miles, I don't have a Magick tankard :( And i hate mead.
Guess its the Rock for me:) She has put up with me for a very long time now so far.

ptree - Sunday, 02/03/08 19:26:49 EST

Don't egg him on guys, it'll just get worse with time.

Changing gears for a second, I was thinking of tweaking my current micro forge set up by adding forced air via pool float inflator. If I could set up a manifold or other way of directing more air at the intake of the torche(s), wouldn't that result in a hotter flame? Comments? Thoughts? Oh, and I will soon post pics of the Turkish ironwork I saw.

- Nippulini - Sunday, 02/03/08 20:19:02 EST

Nippulini -- speak for yourself (grin). I'd ship ptree a gross of Grade A Extra Large if he could get Miles to bring back the full Cracked Anvil crew.

Mike BR - Sunday, 02/03/08 20:31:36 EST

I need to produce a mobile forge to do some work at a nearby village. I have a T shape of 2" pipe for the blower. One end has a large flange which will form the bottom of a round firepot. I have also got the blower. Does anybody have a favourite design and / or any hints please? Portable is not a word that springs readily to mind in my forge. Most of my products need a team of oxen to move them so I need advice.

- philip in china - Sunday, 02/03/08 22:20:36 EST

ptree-- TGN and the inner voice of caution warn me to let this drop. However, I think you may be onto a whole 'nother story and one equally beguiling: a happily married smith who suddenly finds himself beset with a sylph, a cutie maybe only he can see, as an apprentice. Sounds like a winner of a sitcom to me.
Mike BR-- thanks, but last I heard Cracked, Chastity Dangerfield, Yummi DeLisch and henchperson Swarf were timewarped cozily back in the Dizzy Club on Holabird Avenue in the 50s, drinking Gunther, smoking unfiltered Camels, playing shuffleboard-- and not about to leave. Certainly not for any place as nutty as the America of 2008.

Miles Undercut - Sunday, 02/03/08 22:42:15 EST

And the weaponsmith himself...wizened, deformed, seedy, and crippled. Good craftsman, though.

Frank Turley - Sunday, 02/03/08 22:47:10 EST

Nip: I have a #6 Turbotrorch burner [air/propane plumbers torch] that is big enough to stick Your thumb into the end of. Unfortunatly I don't know what brand it is, but You can probably find one at a comercial plumbing supply house. I think this would be about right for a small forge like Yours. I don't think blowing more air into an atmospheric burner will give You the result You are looking for, I think it will just make it too lean.

- Dave Boyer - Sunday, 02/03/08 23:27:51 EST

Nip, that burner might not be the Turbotorch brand, but it is a swirl flame. basicly a bigger version of what You are using now.

- Dave Boyer - Sunday, 02/03/08 23:32:00 EST

Frank-- fret not-- any sylph worthy of her diaphanous overalls could put a transformative hex on the seedy old swordbodger and make him into a studly dude in a jiffy.

Miles Undercut - Monday, 02/04/08 00:15:14 EST

Here's a couple a couple ideas I'm trying to wrap my head around. One is converting to oxy/propane. Any thoughts on the pros/cons and how involved it is. The second idea is putting a brake on a 25# little giant. Are there any write ups on how to and also the applications? I'm trying to keep a couple steps ahead of my sylph.

andy - Monday, 02/04/08 00:16:30 EST

Andy,

First off, you're going about this all wrong. The object is NOT to stay ahead of the sylph, it is to attain. Once you're clear on what to do about your sylph, everything else simply falls into place.

Easy enough to convert to oxy/propane, just get the appropriate tips, regulator and hose. You may or may not be able to use your acetylene regulator, it depends on the seal material. You must use type T hose, not the cheaper type R usually delivered with acetylene torch sets. The tips are a special internal mix type that is two pieces, but they're not that expensive.

Propane is more forgiving of poor technique when cutting, and somewhat cleaner. It is lousy for welding, however. works fine for heating with big rosebuds, but it gobbles up oxygen faster than acetylene. Would I do it? The answer is yes, I did. Haven't been sorry. I still use acetylene for welding. Be aware that soje places will not let you have a propane tank indoors, so you may have issues with the fire inspector. Mine said the acetylene was okay, but no propane indoors, period. I pipe it in.

I'll let somebody else take the LG brake question - I'm an air hammer man and those rattly, hoppy, clattery things make me nervous.

vicopper - Monday, 02/04/08 01:32:41 EST

Philip: Look for a deep bowl. I suspect there are large truck brake drums available in China also. Some folks use old BBQ pans. Some folks use small sinks. Maybe a heavy-duty wok with a clay liner? Small washtub?

On propane vs oxy/ace, I do a fair bit of copper pipe soldering. One of those small blue propane bottles doesn't last me long. I was talking about it with a guy at my welding supply place - on the order of a larger propane bottle. He said why not use your oxy/ace unit. Heat is heat. He is right. While it might take a bit to heat up a joint with propane, believe me, it just takes a couple of seconds with oxy/ace.

Ken Scharabok (Poor Boy Blacksmith Tools) - Monday, 02/04/08 07:54:13 EST

Peter,
How big is this mystery object?
From the pictures it looks as if the lower nut is a hex shape. What part of the world is this from?
As soon as I saw the piece the first thing that came to mind was that it's part of a hay sling.

We have to keep in mind that just because something was found in a smithy doesn't necessarily mean it was used in a smithy.

JimG - Monday, 02/04/08 10:33:05 EST

Vicopper, I mostly use the torch for isolated quick heats and thought the propane might burn cleaner and be cheaper, but maybe with the quicker oxy consumption it evens out cost wise.

andy - Monday, 02/04/08 11:10:20 EST

If the burner is burning at the proper mix blowing more air in *cools* *things* *down*; all the O2 needed is already being provided any extra gas is just cold stuff that needs to be heated.

Where air assist helps is when you can dump more fuel in than the burner would be able to aspirate combustion air for. Then added air can result in getting back to the proper mix.

This is why blown forge burners are simplier than aspirated ones. The aspirated ones have to make the fuel/air balance pretty much on their own. The blow one you can tinker with the gas or air flow till you get the mix you want and you can *change* it to be reducing, neutral or oxidizing at will.

Ken/Philip; a large truck brakedrum is much too large and heavy to move around and will need deep slots on the sides to get stock down to the hot spot---or will need filling to move the hot spot nearer the top. (I had a student/friend try this and end up junking the whole thing as it was several hundered pounds to move).

A pickup truck brake drum is a more appropriate size for a portable solid fuel forge.

Thomas

Thomas P - Monday, 02/04/08 12:15:11 EST

LG Brakes: Dave Manzer covered how to make an LG brake pretty well in his "How to Cure the Bang Tap Blues" AKA the Little Giant Tune up video. We sell it if you don't have a copy.

- guru - Monday, 02/04/08 14:02:39 EST

Portable Forge: As you noted portability is proportional to the means to move something. Almost all non-permanent non-masonry (IE metal) forges were called "portable" by their manufacturers.

The classic "brake drum" forge shown on these pages is about the ultimate in home-built portability. I prefer to use old wheels rather than a brake drum as the wheels are foten a better size-shape. However, later model wheels are getting to have more holes than metal and are also often aluminium.

Using a wheel for both the fire pot and the base makes a nice sturdy but portable device. Other suitable materials are old hot water heaters. Hot water heater tanks come with a nice pan shape, are not too thick and have a covering of sheet metal that can be converted into a windbreak, hood and of stack.

The pan of a portable forge does not need to be any thicker than about 1/8". So auto wheels and old water tanks work well.

- guru - Monday, 02/04/08 14:16:04 EST

Isnt oxy/acetelyene a bit hot for soldering? I use an air acetylene torch.

Otherwise I use oxy propane for cutting and heating. Oxy acetylene for welding and very fine work. The oxy acetylene flame is more concentrated and this can be usefule for jewelry work and the like. Like vic says - oxy propane is worthless for welding though its fine for brazing.

adam - Monday, 02/04/08 15:41:50 EST

I did my copper pipe plumbing with oxy-acet, a small tip and don't hold it so close to the work.

Portable forge? Years ago, the Santa Clara coppersmiths came to the NM State Fair. Their forge was a charcoal fire on the ground with a tuyere pipe going in from one side. The bellows took up most of the room, as it was a double "concertina type" which is shown in Simmons & Turley, "SW Colonial Ironwork."

Frank Turley - Monday, 02/04/08 17:22:36 EST

Phillip in China. I made a portable forge from a trailer tire wheel. About a 12" tire, had an almost perfect shape, and none of those pesky lightening holes now so prevealent on car wheels. The center hole was just right for a hunk of 2" pipe to be welded to for the ash dump. I dropped that into a flat plate with a bit of a lip taround the edges to hold the coal on top of the plate. Now this particular porta-forge is welded to a trailer made from an old mini-pick up truck bed. I can put an entire forge setup with tools and stock and so forth and still pull it with a car. The forge would be very easy to build as a wheelbarrow style so it could be rolled around and be portable without the trailer.
There will soon be a setp by step with photos across the street.

ptree - Monday, 02/04/08 19:23:42 EST

Andy...

If you contact Sid at the following URL:

http://www.littlegianthammer.com/

and talk to him or his daughter about adding a brake to your Little Giant hammer, he will likely send you plans for free.

- djhammerd - Monday, 02/04/08 19:40:01 EST

Hi all! I have snapped off a screw in an old aluminum window frame. Once years ago when I broke a tap inside a machined aluminum part that I ended up re-making, a co-worker told me there was an acid that would dissolve steel but not aluminum. Unfortunately, he could not remember which one. I am skeptical, but hopeful. Anyone know about an acid that can be used to dissolve stuck screws out of aluminum, or am I reaffirming my title as world's most gullible?

Rob Curry - Monday, 02/04/08 22:18:35 EST

Rob-Hydrofluoric acid is what I think you are thinking about. It is a main ingredient in the spray you use to clean chrome wheels.

Thanks for all the replies on my question about what type of hammer to use for a story I'm writing. Thomas P thanks for the additional info on forge assistants. Mile Undercut, whatever meds you are taking, I want some.

Brian Shafer - Monday, 02/04/08 23:31:59 EST

Thanks for the input...

andy - Monday, 02/04/08 23:34:03 EST

Brian-- no meds, just spend 60 years or so reading SF/fantasy, myths, legends, Joseph Campbell's Hero With a Thousand Faces, etc. Ummm, wait! How can that possibly be, when I only just turned 29, same as last year?

Miles Undercut - Tuesday, 02/05/08 00:07:31 EST

Soldering Torches: For soft soldering copper pipe I use a BernsOmatic ST 4000 with a 1# propane bottle. This is a self lighting torch, push the button and You have FIRE, beats a "filck of a Bick" anyday for lighting anything from forges to fireworks. The short fat bottle doesn't fall over as easy, and it is extremely portable compaired to a torch with a bigger tank on a hose. This is pretty fast on 1/2"& 3/4" pipe but I have used it on 1 1/2" sucessfully. These torches use a swirl flame burner, much better for pipe soldering than a pencil flame air/propane torch. I use oxy/acetylene for hard soldering HVAC lines with SilFos, as air acetylene is marginal on temperature for hard solder. Oxy propane would be fine for this use. Propane in refilable cylinders is extremely inexpensive as fuel gasses go.

- Dave Boyer - Tuesday, 02/05/08 00:17:54 EST

Portable forge source:

How about an old well pressure tank? Those seem to have fairly thick walls and would be easier to move around than a water heater. I see them all the time at the dump, and can probably get some free ones from a plumber.

- Marc - Tuesday, 02/05/08 09:59:43 EST

Marc, Same type tank and general wall thicknesses. However, the bladder type that are pretty much standard today are much thinner walled. Probably too thin. Good choice but not as common. There are under counter hot water heaters that have a nice short tank. As to weight, you are going to cut off all but about 3 to 4" . .

- guru - Tuesday, 02/05/08 10:28:37 EST

Oxy-Propane: The advantage to this as a fuel source is for cutting and heavy heating. It is cheaper and more convenient than acetylene. You can use it with small torches for soldering but is very difficult to weld steel with. Cutting also requires a different technique that has a longer learning curve than OA.

Where Oxy-Propane really shines is for using a rosebud. It is MUCH better as you can use a large tank in place of ganging several acetylene bottles together. It also makes a slightly softer quieter flame which is much less stressful to the user than holding on to the rocket engine OA rosebud.

OA is still hotter and easier to do very fine work with as well as welding.

- guru - Tuesday, 02/05/08 10:37:11 EST

Okay, I am still going to try the pool float inflator idea. If I am wrong, then I will learn from my own stupidity. Seriously though, the back end of the microforge roof has a slit in it, welded a funnel on the top and directed the hot air at the intake(s) of the torches. I use a Bernz-o-matic standard propane torch at the front and a Bernz TZ-8000 MAPP torch at the rear. I usually run on plain propane and turn up the MAPP for added heat when I want. I'll have to take a pic of it and post so you guys have an idea of what I am working with now. This is my 3rd forge design and is so far better than any of my previous ones. Hardly any dragons breath at all!

- Nippulini - Tuesday, 02/05/08 12:30:57 EST

On oxy/ace soldering I should have mentioned this is bench work for my propane forges. Oxy/ace unit sits just feet away so I'm not dragging it around doing regular plumbing work. Has worked rather well so far.

Ken Scharabok (Poor Boy Blacksmith Tools) - Tuesday, 02/05/08 13:34:51 EST

My substitute teacher, Winslow Morgan, was using the double hammer upsetting technique last Saturday, and wound up on You Tube. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18z2UgRyqBo

I caught one of the "new viruses", and am recovering.

Frank Turley - Tuesday, 02/05/08 19:19:22 EST

Guru Thank you for advising muriatic acid for etching my junk yard Damascus . I have good results. Is it necessary to heat treat to nonmagnetic and then temper. The metals I used were spring steel sewer rod, tooth out of rock crusher,leaf spring 1950 dodge powerwagon, 1" vanadium wrench, and 1040 bar stock. I forge welded and folded to eighty layers. Thanks. Gator

Gator - Tuesday, 02/05/08 21:11:11 EST

Rob try ammonia for steel stuck in aluminum, this courtesy of Sheldon Brown dot com bicycle repair website.

Bart

blackbart - Tuesday, 02/05/08 21:18:28 EST

Ken - Do You use a gas saver valve with a pilot light? that would be the "Cat's A**"

- Dave Boyer - Tuesday, 02/05/08 22:03:23 EST

Bart,

I tried that ammonia trick (which I learned about from the same source) once. It worked for me. My understanding, though is the the ammonia -- regular household stuff -- dissolves aluminum oxide. Good for parts that are corroded in place. Not sure if it would work on a tap jammed in freshly cut threads.

By the way, I read on another site that Sheldon passed away a couple of days ago.

Mike BR - Tuesday, 02/05/08 22:39:34 EST

i have been blacksmithing for 1 year now for a balcksmith just down the road. it is time fo me to make my own set of spurs ive been in spurs sence i was knee high.so my question is how do i put the silver onto the finished pair of spurs i know there is going to be some engraving but thats no problem ive been engraving glass for awhile?

jake g - Tuesday, 02/05/08 23:08:21 EST

Jake G,

Silver is either soldered on as overlays or inlaid cold into spaces that have metal graved away and dovetailed edges. The edges are hammered down to hold the pieces in place. Silver wire can be led into dovetailed channels. All of the above require mucho practice.

Ref: "How to Make Bits and Spurs" by Robert M. Hall, 1985. ISBN # 0-914330-78-0

Ref: Video. "Cowboy Bit and Spur Making", 1994 Jerwemiah Watt; "Heritage Trades" Videos. http://www.ranch2arena.com/videoeng.html

Frank Turley - Tuesday, 02/05/08 23:29:44 EST

Heat Treating Laminated Steel: Gator, Tempering is one step in several of heat treating. All heat treating is done prior to the final grind and etching.

Unless you are using a known combination of known materials in a set proportion as specified by someone who has given a recommended heat treat then you are on your own. AND since you are using several junk yard steels then Junk Yard Steel rules apply.

The way Daryl Meier would determine the heat treatment is to list the various steels' heat treatments then determine the ranges for each step that overlapped each steel. Sometimes this meant going to one limit or the other in opposite directions for different steels. However, this just gave you the best theoretical heat treatment. After that you would need to treat it as Junk Yard Steel since you are now the manufacturer (AND your own metallurgist).

- guru - Wednesday, 02/06/08 11:59:42 EST

Ah. . the above is why you want to start with known alloys and possibly investigate the heat treatment specs before putting them together.

In the NEW BigBLU bladesmithing video Mike Norris forge welds stainless without flux!

- guru - Wednesday, 02/06/08 13:23:40 EST

Hi there. I have been perusing the iForge list for a few weeks and have a question about the August 11, 1999 demo- Bill Epps' making of roses. He mentioned that somebody out there sells the "rose discs" but I have been unable to find them. Is there still a vendor out there who sells the pre-cut discs? If so, where?

Thank you and have a nice day!
Metal J

Metal J - Wednesday, 02/06/08 13:30:30 EST

TGN please tell me I misread and you are not funnelling hot exhaust back into the intake of the burner! Makes CO production ZOOM!

Instead you are using the hot exhaust to preheat the combustion air but they never meet!

Thomas trying to recover from an upper respiratory infection

Thomas P - Wednesday, 02/06/08 14:00:16 EST

Re-using hot air: this is generally not a great idea since the Oxygen has been largely depleted by the first run through the burner. This "air" will be high in CO and CO2 as Caughing Thomas stated. It will not lend anything significant to the combustion efficiency since the burning of the methane must now reheat the depleated "hot" air. This is a thermal load on the burner that deprives the flame of some amount of heat that should go into the refractories and the workpiece. Now if you use a heat exchanger to pre-heat cold air that has not been through the burner once, you might make a difference.

quenchcrack - Wednesday, 02/06/08 14:12:21 EST

Metal J, Blacksmiths Depot and our other suppliers have carried them. They come in and out of inventory so check.

- guru - Wednesday, 02/06/08 14:40:23 EST

Could you please tell me the temperatures for the hardening (oil) and tempering (plain water) quenches for 1095? I dink around outside and the temp. varys considerably. I've been thinking of tightening up contols with temp. adjustable baths of some sort. Any help would help. Thanks!

Harrison Rice - Wednesday, 02/06/08 16:02:05 EST

I have a question about a knife. Not how to make one..it's already made, but it needs refinishing. It's an old surplus bayonet that my dad had when I was a kid. I want to spruce it up to a "show piece" and give it back to him. I'm doing all the leather, (sheath, handle), but I need direction on finishing the blade. Right now, it's got some surface rust, and I want to either have a gunsmith hot blue it, or I'll stick it in my forge and oil quench it. Would I screw up the kinfe doing that? Any ideas would be appreciated.
Thanks!

Donnie - Wednesday, 02/06/08 16:12:12 EST

Metal J, www.saber.net/~jere/rose.html

Frank Turley - Wednesday, 02/06/08 17:51:03 EST

Donnie,

If you heat the blade beyond more than about 350 degrees, you'll affect the heat treatment. You're probably best off refinishing the blade by careful sanding and polishing, followed by cold bluing. Good modern cold blue formulas applied properly will be nearly as durable as hot bluing and will not affect the blade's heat treatment. Some hot bluing is done at temperatures low enough not to cause a problem, and others are done at high enough temperatures that they might draw the temper too much. Since the blade is a show piece, rather than a combat "user", I'd err on the side of safety, myself.

vicopper - Wednesday, 02/06/08 18:44:02 EST

Lots of owners of antiques who with the best of intentions spruced them up, sanding, dipping, etc. have heard the expert appraisers tell them on Antiques Roadshow their piece would have been worth a whole lot more if they had left the signs of ageing alone. Whatever you do with the bayonet, do NOT use Naval Jelly. It eats the surface.

Miles Undercut - Wednesday, 02/06/08 19:16:42 EST

Cold rolled vs. hot rolled 1095 for knives?

Harrison Rice - Wednesday, 02/06/08 19:22:37 EST

Anyone know of any uses for scale. I've seen a punch lube that had some in it. I was also thinking that maybe you could turn it back into iron with a thermite reaction? Any thoughts anyone?

- Hollon - Wednesday, 02/06/08 19:40:04 EST

"Ken - Do You use a gas saver valve with a pilot light? that would be the "Cat's A**""

The only handle/head/whatever I use is a Henrob 2000 or such. I predominately use it as a thin metal "Poor Boy's" plasma cutter and heat source. Many years ago I was taught during my oxy/ace welding class to turn off the tanks when the torch isn't lit. My pilot light is then setting the head down on someplace to continue running while I change stock position.

Ken Scharabok (Poor Boy Blacksmith Tools) - Wednesday, 02/06/08 19:49:58 EST

Hollo, when I worked at the axle shop we made about 16 tons of scale every three weeks. I searched and searched as it struck me as bed biz to pay for steel, turn the surface to scale with expensive energy, and then pay to put the scale we also paid to remove into a landfill. The problem is the stuff blows right back out of most any scrap melting furnace. It did not even attract attention as a smelt feed stock as ore. It does have a use however for the blacksmith. it makes great filler for hollow home built power hammers and so forth. fill and run and keep adding till no more will go in. The stuff is very dense, and once a little mosture gets in it, it gets VERY solid.

I tested it as punch lube, report across the street. Can't reccomend it for that use.

ptree - Wednesday, 02/06/08 19:50:24 EST

Isn't fine, graded, scale used as crocus cloth?

Frank Turley - Wednesday, 02/06/08 19:54:11 EST

I'm saving scale for a bloomery smelt.........

- TM - Wednesday, 02/06/08 23:44:15 EST

Crocus cloth uses iron oxide for the abrasive, but I don't really know any more about it than that.

- Dave Boyer - Wednesday, 02/06/08 23:45:16 EST

Re-phrase; Is there a performance trade off between hot rolled or cold rolled 1095?

Harrison Rice - Thursday, 02/07/08 00:20:49 EST

Harrison,

Nope, if you're forging it then it is all the same.

vicopper - Thursday, 02/07/08 01:19:38 EST

Kalvin - Thursday, 02/07/08 03:43:39 EST

I was reading your article on sword smithing Gen X, and I'm very interested in creating an aluminum wall hanger. Obviously Ive no use for a real sword and i dont have the knowledge or means to forge one from steel. My question (and please excuse my ignorance) is, is a forge, tempering etc. necissary when fabricating an aluminum wall hanger? (also sorry for the double post)

Kalvin - Thursday, 02/07/08 03:46:43 EST

I am still trying to source an anvil for my place in Bulgaria. http://www.prumyslovy-servis.cz/index_soubory/Page427.htm is quite close being in Czech republic. They sell Euroanvil, Peddinghaus Anvils and Habermann Anvils. What are the differences please? Which would be most appropriate for a one man forge making and fixing farm tools and similar fairly rough work? Has anybody had anything from this factory? If so how is the quality? I know the Euroanvils are pretty good value so I presume everything else should be OK.

BTW happy year of the rat to you all.

- philip in china - Thursday, 02/07/08 03:49:32 EST

Now you tell me! When the exhaust is pointed directly at the torch intake it sputters a bit, so I would keep it indirect. What's the best pre heat method for air? Hair dryer?

- Nippulini - Thursday, 02/07/08 08:58:13 EST

Al Wall Hanger, Kalvin, Not unless you want to go that route for some of the parts. The aluminum is all sawed and filed to shape then polished. The furniture can be brass, stainless steel or aluminum and is made the same way. In fact, the furniture on most blades of all types is carved from solid stock unless it is cast.

Machinery can speed this project but is not needed. I gave a detailed list of the required tools in the article. A drill press helps a lot if riveted connections are used. If you have access to a milling machine many of the parts also go faster but it is not necessary and is rare in most small blade shops.

- guru - Thursday, 02/07/08 09:15:28 EST

Pre-heat or recupritive furnace Nip, some type of heat exchanger is used. On the ABANA plan there is an exhaust on the rear of the forge and the burner tubes pass through it at an angle. A front vent "chimney" above the door would also work. A flattened thin wall SS tube passing through the chimney would heat the air. I would use a flattened tube to reduce its cross section and proportionally increase its surface area.

The sputtering is lack of oxygen in the exhust being fed into the burner. As noted, ANY extra CO2 greatly increases the CO from your forge. DON'T DO IT! IF for some reason the forge operates better then you were getting too much air relative to the fuel.

Hot air intake helps in many cases and is the rule for efficiency on many industrial furnaces. A little preheat on a forge can be useful but you can push the gains too far and end up overheating the metal.

- guru - Thursday, 02/07/08 09:26:09 EST

Anvils: Phillip, First, the anvil types listed are "styles" that often infringe on popular brand names. They have nothing to do with these reputable firms. Some of these products are made in the same foundries but there have been a lot sold through unofficial channels.

There is no difference in metallurgy between this group of anvils. The differences are shape which is mostly a personal preference. However, over the years the foundries and shops making them have changed a number of times due to various problems.

What is important is WHO you are dealing with. The rep for one of these lines in Europe sold a number of a badly cast anvils to a school and several broke. He would not back them up and they were obviously defective.

- guru - Thursday, 02/07/08 09:46:53 EST

SAE 1095 Harrison, See our Heat Treating FAQ. It has details on this and several other alloys.

- guru - Thursday, 02/07/08 09:51:39 EST

Steel Forms, Hot Rolled vs Cold. See our FAQ on "Steel Product Types".

- guru - Thursday, 02/07/08 09:53:06 EST

My lady and I have decided that we would much rather make our own wedding rings then to purchase them. We are still a few years to that point, but I would love to actually have some skill at it before I make her final product.

I was hoping someone here (as in this is the most filled website on smithing I have ever seen) could help steer me in the right direction of things or their names.

Futhark (old english runes) and the hebrew script punches or presses. I have been quite into viking culture for a really long time and my girlfriend comes from a very jewish family. I am not sure if they are called stamps, punches or presses, or where would be best to find them.

Some sort of metal that is not gold would be good to get practice with. I was going to try and use brass, just wondering if this is a good plan. (gold, obv. as it's real damn expensive.)

Also, any tutorials I have found on preparing the mould have kind of left out a couple of steps. The part that I think I am missing is how the sand stuff hardens, when it is ready for molten metals, and how the pouring/gas esacpe holes are to be situated.

And as a side note, once the snow's all gone a friend and I are going to be doing some backyard/junkyard smithing experiments with the brake drum and a bunch of rail road ties, I'm really excited.

Kyle TR - Thursday, 02/07/08 10:09:32 EST

Rail road spikes**
your iforge is really a must see for people getting into smithing.

Kyle TR - Thursday, 02/07/08 10:11:42 EST

Where can I get plans to build the sheet metal forge used in the Raising of a Norman Helmet by Eric Thing?

Don - Thursday, 02/07/08 10:28:18 EST

where can I get plans for a sheet metal forge like the one used in Eic Things raising a norman helmet?

Don - Thursday, 02/07/08 10:38:38 EST

Kyle, I have seen Hebrew script punches for leatherwork, and I'd bet somebody like Rio Grande jewelers' supply offers them for metal. I haven't seen any rune stamps (the futhark comes in several flavors, not just Anglo-Saxon), but they'd be easy enough to make using the techniques on the iForge page for matrix punches. The Hebrew characters would be harder to do that way, what with the differing line widths and curves. I know somebody does make large runic stamps, since you see so much single-rune silver jewelry at new-age shops, but they may not be the correct set for your preferred culture.

I'd use copper for initial practice, as brass can be hard to deal with depending on alloy. Copper will work-harden as well, but is easily annealed. Not much will be as soft or easy to stamp as the gold you're planning on using. You don't want to wear straight copper jewelry, though, so once you get the hang of stamping, bending, and hard-soldering on heavy copper wire scrap I'd move up to sterling silver. That way you can wear what you've made if you like how it turned out, or sell it as a sideline. You can buy half-round and low-dome silver wire to use as ring or thin bangle bracelet stock without having to invest $$$$ in a jewelers' rolling mill. You don't get as much flexibility in size, but it's a LOT cheaper to buy preformed wire and find out if you have the talent and/or interest in continuing before you lay out serious cash.

I would not try sand-casting rings with fine lettered detail as a first project, but as an alternative to stamping you could go with the lost-wax process and fine investment casting if you know someone who does jewelry investment casting. You carve the designs/letter into a hard wax ring presized to fit and go from there. This also requires expensive equipment and involves much more danger than working with wire.

My personal best advice is to take a jewelry class. Lots of places offer them, look in local bead stores, buy jewelry magazines, check out local colledges, and so on. Like blacksmithing, jewelry is something you CAN pick up on your own, but it's SO much easier if you get a good foundation in a class or from a pro first.

Alan-L - Thursday, 02/07/08 12:00:57 EST

Thank you, Alan.
As it is only early in the idea phase I am just doing a lot of research as it is. I very much doubt I'll be using stamps for quite some time, just wondering where they can be found and what they are called.

I still have much research left, and a life time of questions more to ask. I'll be back in the near future.

thank you.

Kyle TR - Thursday, 02/07/08 12:31:16 EST

Kylr, adfter you have taken the jewlery class, may I suggest you take a look at the materials offered by Shinning Wave at http://www.shiningwave.com/index.html in strip and other forms. You might find some patterns will work well for you intended rings.

- Bob Johnson - Thursday, 02/07/08 13:18:41 EST

Kyle, after you have taken the jewlery class, may I suggest you take a look at the materials offered by Shinning Wave at http://www.shiningwave.com/index.html in strip and other forms. You might find some patterns will work well for you intended rings.

- Bob Johnson - Thursday, 02/07/08 13:20:33 EST

Punching Runes:

I use two punches, a long one (|) for the "tree" or "stave" and one about 33% for the "branches", mostly from anealed, filed and then hardened "square" masonry nails. Quality depends upon the steadiness of the hand, so sometimes I do better than others. Much practice on cheap metals is a good thing.

Once again, the jewelry classes and stamp sources are proabably a better idea.

"Runesmithing since before 1969."

Bruce Blackistone (Atli) - Thursday, 02/07/08 14:29:43 EST

Right, runes are just lines, so with a little practice I am sure i can get them without an individual stamp for each.
Thanks for the tip, and also thanks for the link, I'll check that out now.

Kyle TR - Thursday, 02/07/08 14:36:02 EST

Making rings with fine patterns.
As many have suggested if fabricating coper is good fro practice. it will also teach you about work hardening and sterling silver and most of the lower karet golds will also workharden.
You did not advise your general location in the world, but I may be able to offer some help;
Most large cities have "comercial Jewlors" that do repair and manufacture. If you wish to lost wax cast, you merely have to make the wax positives and take them to the proffesional folks who will cast them for you. It will cost but not nearly what the equipment to do it would. One has a much better shot (thats a pun Rich) at getting good casting the first time around this way as well.

second if going the fabricating method, then ask your lady to ome up wit som old jewels from former boyfriends. One good sized highschool ring will make a pair of normal wedding rings. You might also donate to the cause.
These can be easily melted in an inexpensive crucible and then forged into sheet, and then fabrictaed to your hearts desire. Rich, another jeweler who saw the light of hot iron also writes on this forum and he advocates a forged seamless ring. also way cool.

Last but not least, the symbolism of taking old items from previous loves and forging them into something for the new relationship is something he ladies love. Let her help. It will have much meaning then. If so when she is not looking swipe a little bit, enough to make a tiny little ring for the babies that may come into your life. Hide that scrap an use it when needed. Tie a ribbon on the ring and then around the babies wrist for a picture only then remove and the new Mom wears on a chain. Thats a gauranteed ataboy.
I know cause I did just that. and also for some friends as well.

"Forged jewelery since 1975" Still on the same wif since 1981, + 4 kids:)

ptree - Thursday, 02/07/08 14:47:26 EST

We are most interested so far in the lost wax method.
I imagine it would be possible to make a ring using this method and then after apply designs?

Also, this is the kit I almost bought, before sense and research kicked in. Just wondering what the whole sand casting deal is about. ebay item 250206283333

Copper and old jewelry will be definite uses for practice. If by chance, while I make the final product I mess up, can you just melt the ring and start over or does the metal have to be treated? I've been browsing over this site for a long time now, nothing too serious and have always read about metal gets worn out or over used, metal treating and all that jazz.

Which of the casts so far mentioned can be reused?

For future sake, I am from Halifax, NS, Canada.
Thanks for help.

Kyle TR - Thursday, 02/07/08 15:16:59 EST

Yes I had seen the list, and thank you for taking the time to compile it. I was asking because i hadn't seen a forge mentioned in that particular part of the article and i wanted to double check before i leaped into it. You've been a great help, thank you.

- Kalvin - Thursday, 02/07/08 16:34:00 EST

Kyle TR, one can often remelt gold and silver several times without much problems. While in the crucible, you use a pinch of borax to clean the dross off, and while some of the alloying metals get lost if you don't heat too long i have not had much problems.
There are also casting metals that come in casting grain that mimic most of the gold karets. Much cheaper.
In lost wax, you carve a positive model EXACTLY as you wish it to be when cast, and bingo that is usually what you get. I have handled wax models that were warmer than I thought and got perfect fingerprints cast into the surface:) Not big impressions, but just like on my finger:)
I have tried the little sand cast kits many years ago and was dissapointed. I don't think sandcast will give the finish and detail one gets from lost wax. we often used a blow flame to "polish" the wax surface to give a very very smooth finish that greatly reduces the finishing work needed to get a high polish.

ptree - Thursday, 02/07/08 18:05:43 EST

Kyle,

You can re-melt precious metals a number of times without serious degradation, as long as you don't overheat and keep the molten metal well fluxed.

Sand casting is a really poor method for jewelry making, in my opinion. That opinion is based upon a degree in Metalsmithing and Jewelry Design and nearly forty years of working with metals. Sand casting definitely has its place, but for jewelry work, lost wax casting is vastly superior and actually easier to learn and do. You can do lost wax casting with very simple equipment or you can get very elaborate, but the process is still fundamentally the same. I can produce a pair of cast rings using less than ten bucks worth of equipment and they will be virtually indistinguishable from rings made using equipment costing tens of thousands of dollars - the process really IS that simple. The key ingredient is KNOWLEDGE.

Get some books on jewelry making and read them first. I suggest "The Design and Creation of Jewelry" by Robert VonNeumann, "Creative Casting" by Sharr Choate, "Metal Techniques for Craftsmen" by Oppi Untracht and "Silversmithing" by Rupert Feingold and William Seitz. You should be able to get all of them through Inter-Library Loan System or from used book dealers. In these four books you'll find all the information you need to get a very thorough grounding in jewelry making and several other aspects of metal working. Enough that, with a bit of thought and experimentation, you can figure out how to cast your rings very successfully. Remember, the lost wax casting process has been around for millenia, long before all the snazzy expensive equipment was ever invented. You can do it, believe me!

For casting practice, I'd recommend sterling silver. It isn't that expensive and can be re-used several times if you wish. What you discover using it is directly applicable to working with karat golds, and the sterling will produce wearable jewelry itself.

Most community colleges and universities offer silversmithing courses, some available as evening classes. Additionally, a number of silversmiths offer classes through their cities' recreation departments, schools and/or vocational training programs. Check around see what is available in Halifax. Taking a class gives you access to equipment that you might not otherwise be able to afford, as well as providing the opportunity to get hands-on help from a professional. Don't overlook the possibility of exchanging some of your labor for some instruction from a local jeweler, either. One of them may be willing to teach you a bit in exchange for doing some of the scut work around the shop, such as cleaning castings, buffing, re-melting scrap, cleanup work, etc. Most dedicated craftsmen are happy to help out someone who is truly sincere about wanting to learn, though mos tof them have been burned at some time in the past and will be a bit gun-shy at first. Keep in mind that what they have to offer is valuable and that there must be a fair exchange for them to be interested. I get lots of people who want to take up my time but who have nothing to offer in return - the rare one who is actually willing to work for the knowledge will be welcomed.

After you have obtained some of the books and read them, come back with your questions. When you have some background information you will be better able to ask meaningful quesitons and I will be better able to provide useful answers for you.

vicopper - Thursday, 02/07/08 18:40:59 EST

Don: To my knowledge Eric Things spot forges are shop made by him, and have gone through several variations. Best you can do is to try to copy his latest designs.

I made one for someone in CA who does Roman Legion-era armor plates and such. He said it roared like a jet engine and produces a rather amazing amount of forge-area heat. My one and only attempt at Eric's design due to potential liability questions.

Ken Scharabok (Poor Boy Blacksmith Tools) - Thursday, 02/07/08 18:57:47 EST

Just starting out. I bought a rivet forge a week ago. cleaned it all up. on the bottom of the pan it says to put clay on the surface. Then I asked a few people down here I get answers like no, line it with fire brick, put more coal then coke. also having hard time finding tools lost in Las Palomas New Mexico

Charlie Miranda - Thursday, 02/07/08 21:44:42 EST

Charlie Miranda - Thursday, 02/07/08 21:46:15 EST

Charlie, Join swaba.abana-chapter.com On thir website, you will see that Stan Urbanski is selling smithing tools in Caballo, NM. There will be a regional blacksmith meeting Feb 16th-17th at the Farm & Ranch Heritage Museum, Las Cruces.

Frank Turley - Thursday, 02/07/08 22:13:33 EST

thank you vtree and vicopper.
this is exactly what I needed, some sort of direction to start in. Like I said, it's only been a few days into researching. Although I still feel like I don't know what I am doing, I am becoming more comfortable in saying i know what to start learning. This site is really something, will send people here to start learning.

Thanks again

Kyle TR - Thursday, 02/07/08 23:09:58 EST

Hollon, Ptree, I can think of 2 uses for scale: iron-rich soil supplement, and filler for concrete and asphalt. Don't know if anyone takes it for these uses these days, but cement companies used to haul baghouse iron finds away from the shipyard for free (almost the same material -- residue from sandblasting steel), saving us the cost of disposal. Last I heard, they stopped doing this and the yard was disposing of the stuff in the landfill.

Thanks Brian Shafer, Black Bart, and Mike BR for your responses to my broken screw. As it turns out, I got it out mechanically without damaging the frame. I hope I never need to test your suggestions, but if I do I will report the results back to you.

- Rob Curry - Thursday, 02/07/08 23:29:17 EST

Eric Thing's Forges: Eric has sent me a very nice article that I will post as soon as I get off this out of town job.

- guru - Friday, 02/08/08 09:42:13 EST

Small Castings: A product called ?????? Clay, an ultra fine petrobond sand, is used by many jewelers today and sold by jewelery tool suppliers. I have used it and gotten excellent results. It is very fast and easy to use. It is also reusable and does not require tempering. See our News articles on the West Virginia Armour-Ins. Brass castings made using this product went straight to the

Sorry I cannot remember the name of the product this AM.

- guru - Friday, 02/08/08 09:53:52 EST

Claying Forges: See our FAQ on the subject.

- guru - Friday, 02/08/08 09:56:04 EST

. . .castings went straight to the buffer. . .

- guru - Friday, 02/08/08 09:57:33 EST

Delft clay. (Good tip!)

Matt B - Friday, 02/08/08 12:16:58 EST

Hmm. Second try:

Delft clay.

Matt B - Friday, 02/08/08 12:18:09 EST

Third try:

Delft clay.

Matt B - Friday, 02/08/08 12:19:10 EST

Scale as an iron-supplement for your soil: Nope. Won't break down and can't be absorbed by the plants without chelating. Just sits in the soil and rusts into a glob. Don't ask how I know that. Might work for cinder-blocks but I don't think any of us can generate enough to make it commercially viable. If you can, your gasser might need adjustment.

quenchcrack - Friday, 02/08/08 13:42:47 EST

Charlie; welcome to the NM smithing community! Note that you do not need to be a SWABA member to attend the Hammer-In and it would be a great place to meet a lot of other smiths and find some stuff to buy---I believe at least 1 gas forge builder will be selling there. (We would be happy to have you join our group too; but you can check us out first!)

Stan is actually quite close to you and so would be a good place to go "shopping".

NM is not nearly as tool rich as the midwest and so items are harder to find and prices are higher than back in OH; but I have seen 4 anvils and about 20 sets of tongs come through the Socorro NM fleamarket since I moved here and bought 2 large post vises at the Tumbleweed Auction's spring sale once (coming up soon).

I'm just out of Socorro NM; so if you are ever in the area let me know!

Unfortunately I will be missing the conference as I'll be at a Medieval event in AZ from Feb 11-Feb 18 and will be away from e-mail, electricity, etc.

Thomas Powers, Vice President of SWABA

Thomas P - Friday, 02/08/08 13:47:11 EST

Scale; I'm saving mine for a bloomery run. I want to see if I can get any of the alloying elements from the modern steels into a bloom---very iffy as just a small temperature difference can double the uptake of certain elements in the ore...

Thomas

Thomas P - Friday, 02/08/08 13:48:52 EST

I was pleasantly surprised yesterday by an invitation to demonstrate the spring festival at a sheep farm near here. So surprised, in fact, that when I was asked how much I charged, I had no response. Well, other than, " doh, whatever you usually pay I'm sure will be fine . . ." I was perfectly prepared to just show up, set up, heat it up and sell what I could. Then they started talking about what kind of tent they should buy for me and a zillion other amenities I didn't expect. Now, without getting into an actionable conspiracy here, or intruding on trade secrets, can I get any guidance what one should resonably ask?

This is a one-day event at a small sheep farm, non-profit owner. There will be working dogs, assorted farm animals, sheep shearing, a dozen or so weaver/spinners, hayride, a thousand or so visitors. No admission charge. Good cause, but a good opportunity too?

Thanks for any guidance.

Peter Hirst - Friday, 02/08/08 14:33:14 EST

Peter Hirst: I would do it for gas & coal costs. Great opportunity to hand out business cards.

Ken Scharabok (Poor Boy Blacksmith Tools) - Friday, 02/08/08 18:52:38 EST

Sandblast and shot blast debris, (scale) are classified as "special waste" or hazardous waste, and so are often not easy to dispose of. That is why I was trying so hard to find a recycle route. If recycled the waste ceases to exist in the eyes of the Gov't. Waste in a landfill is the generators FOREVER, by law.

ptree - Friday, 02/08/08 19:26:26 EST

I am just beginng to work metal (knives mostly). I am 52. I would like to build a propane fired forge from the burner out of a turkey fryer! Do you think it will work or have You ever heard of a pipedream like this one?
Thanks for your time c-ya Bob

Bob - Friday, 02/08/08 19:50:50 EST

I'm off to Estrella, packing the forge in the truck over the weekend and heading out Monday morning. I'll be back online around Feb 19th.

Thomas

Thomas P - Friday, 02/08/08 19:58:19 EST

Peter Hirst,

I don't know what your status is as far as being a professional smith. If you make your living smithing, then you should charge at least as much for demonstrating as you could make in the same period of time in your shop. To do anything less is unprofessional. The demonstrators I know charge anywhere from 300/day to 1000/day.

Keep in mind that you are both an educator and an entertainer when you are demonstrating, and you have to provide your own tools and materials. You are generally expected to be performing for at least six hours during the day, perhaps more or less depending on the event. Do you need to provide your own PA system? Will your demo be filmed or recorded, and if so, who owns the rights? Who is carrying the liability insurance for the demo and what are the provisions of it? Who is responsible for the security of the tools, the demo area, the visitors? Do you need to have prepared handouts? Is this a "period" demo where you have to stay in character?

All these are some of the questions that need to be asked and answered before you can decide on a price. Or if you even want to do it at all. If you're a professional and the event doesn't carry insurance, you will probably be liable for any claims. Will your insurance cover you?

ONe last thing to keep in mind is that many people feel better if they know the demonstrator is a paid perfromeer who comes from some distance - what I call the 500/500 rule. When you come from more than 500 miles away and charge $500/day you automatically are the "authority" and thus have much more credibility than you would in your own back yard.

If you are a hobby smith, then you have to decide whether or not charging them makes you a professional in the eyes of the authorities and may change your tax status, etc. Lots of things to consider, for sure.

vicopper - Friday, 02/08/08 20:06:08 EST

Peter Hirst-- get a solid fix, in writing if possible, on who holds the bag if little Samantha, in the front row of observers, catches a chunk of hot stuff flying off your anvil in her pretty blue eye. Etc.

Miles Undercut - Friday, 02/08/08 21:58:30 EST

Wow. Quite a reange of responses (depth, too). Thanks for the input. Actually I'm just making the move from hobby to pro: third career. I've been working with an established smith, who passed this gig on to me. SO I feel a special obligation to get it right. I really appreciate everyon's help

Peter Hirst - Saturday, 02/09/08 00:18:53 EST

Got a power hammer set-up question, but before I take up Guru tme here, I want to make sure I didn't miss something on the PH page. Despite its caption, I don't find any how-to articles there. Am I overlooking something?

Peter Hirst - Saturday, 02/09/08 02:58:28 EST

Vicopper says "When you come from more than 500 miles away and charge $500/day you automatically are the "authority" and thus have much more credibility than you would in your own back yard." I cannot agree with this more. As a semi-retired stage performer I could tell you countless times where I got seriously unerpaid/underpromoted when I got gigs in my own hometown of Philly, yet they fork over tons of cash to outside performers. One of the many reasons I decided to retire years ago. Pete, always remember the kiddie jokes and avoid profanity at ALL costs! Make a cow bell and roll with this one when you're finished "Why do cows wear bells?? Because their HORNS don't work!"

- Nippulini - Saturday, 02/09/08 09:58:17 EST

Peter- I've been in your situation myself, and I'll second Miles and vicooper in saying CHECK YOUR INSURANCE! That being said you need to decide if you are there to in general promote and teach blacksmithing or to promote your business and make contacts and sales. If this is a teaching gig with less opportunity for personal gain then ask for teaching rates. If you are going to give away 1000 business cards 100 fliers and give 10 architects or designers copies of your portfolio then decide what that advertiseing is worth to you. Will there be a table for your marketing stuff and samples? (I hope you have lots of samples!) Also, can you talk and work at the same time? Not everyone can so a little practice could help. Good luck!

Jud Yaggy - Saturday, 02/09/08 10:00:08 EST

An old saying. "An expert is a man more than 100 miles from home with an attaché case."

Frank Turley - Saturday, 02/09/08 10:37:24 EST

I was wondering what the highest pressure I can safely use in my gas forge(propane).Also any ideas on how I can get it hpot enough for forge welding?It's all home made.

Don - Saturday, 02/09/08 11:52:55 EST

Don, The pressure required for your forge is proportional to the size of the burner orifice OR pipe restrictions. It is also dependent on the quality and type of fittings you have used. Generally welding gas service equipment proper;y assembled is good up to 100PSI. However, anything you made or assembled by unapproved methods is on YOU, the manufacturer.

If run forges over 30 PSI due to various restrictions. Without them the same forge would have run at 5 to 10 PSI or less.

- guru - Saturday, 02/09/08 15:04:43 EST

Power Hammer Setups: They vary wildly from shock mounted isolation blocks to a wood pad or just running them bare assed on your concrete floor. It all depends on on the user, location and hammer.

Good foundations improve the performance of the hammer and reduce vibration which caused work related fatigue (just like very loud noises). Back in the day when folks wanted to do things RIGHT even a 25 Pound Little Giant sat on a block of concrete that weighed as much as it did. Today, the advice to run hammers directly on your concrete floor is mostly to reduce the installed cost. This same advice came at a time when folks were selling air hammers claiming the could run on 3HP K-mart air compressors. . . It was a disservice to the buyers and most have backed off these statements. However, none of the small anvil manufacturers require a heavy foundation except those that must be supported at different levels.

So, you CAN run your hammer on your shop floor but it is better to have a separate pad. A few folks just seperate the area under the hammer from the surrounding pad with a concrete saw and fill the void with silicon caulk. This may work if the floor is well supported, if not the area under the hammer may settle or worse, tip.

However, there is great convenience to putting your hammer anywhere you want and moving it if your want. The same reason we no longer put anvils on logs set deep in the Earth. Folks who do this on a commercial level plan ahead by putting in an extra heavy floor.

In some cases where vibration transmitted to other machinery or off site is a problem an inertia block isolation foundation has been the only solution.

- guru - Saturday, 02/09/08 17:51:13 EST

Bob: No, the burner on a turkey fryer is little more than a glorified head/burner on a standard propane kitchen range. Left on it long enough you might bring up a horseshoe enough to bend it more easily than cold worked. Forget the turkey fryer.

Ken Scharabok (Poor Boy Blacksmith Tools) - Saturday, 02/09/08 18:53:46 EST

Recycling scale commercially - it's been done and still is to some extent. The first steel mill I worked at out of college in 1974 collected their scale and ran it through a sinter plant. I think they used coke breeze/dust from the coke ovens with the scale to produce a semi-reduced product they could feed back through their blast furnaces. After sintering it held together well enough that it didn't get blown back out the top of the blast furnaces.

Modern days - North American Hoganas's Pyron plant in Niagara Falls, NY recycles selected scale from low alloy sources (minimal MN, and no other intentional alloying elements - think low carbon sheet steels) into iron powder. They do this using electrically heated furnaces in a hydrogen atmosphere. The hydrogen is a byp