| WELCOME to the anvilfire Guru's Den - V. 3.0 |
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THIS is a forum for questions and answers about blacksmithing and general metalworking. Ask the Guru any reasonable question and he or one of his helpers will answer your question, find someone that can, OR research the question for you. This is an archive of posts from March 1 - 7, 2006 on the Guru's Den |
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Many thanks to Dave, Allen, John and Guru for all of the fast replies on augering limestone. I am sitting on solid limestone but I think it's of the softer variety. I used to work at a cement plant where we quarried the rock, crushed it in ball mills with water sand and shale then cooked in in coal fired kilns then crushed it again with gypsum to make the final product "Cememnt". When quarrying the rock you will find different colored layers which are very different in chemical breackdown as well as moisture and hardness. Some is really soft but is also very sticky. Mixed with water it almost has the consistancy of clay and tends to stop up the mills lines and pumps at the plant. Anyway I've been successful in augering holes but it takes about an hr to cut a 9" dia. hole 3' deep. I think I'll go to my local welder supply and try to find some carbide containing rods and give that a try. Thanks again and keep those tips coming. No pun intended! |
| Louis - Wednesday, 03/01/06 01:00:38 EST |
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Spark testing cast iron can ID it fairly well, at least gray cast iron. It is quite distinctive when compared to the plain carbon steels. It has thin, darkish red carrier lines in ordinary shop light (not sunlight). Some of the lines are barely visible. There is a very occasional odd shaped burst at the end of the shower. "Always test the unknown to the known". |
| Frank Turley - Wednesday, 03/01/06 01:04:40 EST |
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Where to buy brush/broom for fireplace tools? I've checked out broomshop.com, any others? |
| - Andrew - Wednesday, 03/01/06 01:37:04 EST |
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Brooms Andrew, See our iForge demo on brooms, click on the link and write to Sharron. She makes custom brooms for blacksmiths OR you may find a solution in our demo. |
| - guru - Wednesday, 03/01/06 01:59:10 EST |
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My folks have an old house (not as old as mine, grin), my dad found some rotting timbers around the house and within the timber was some nails that are quite perplexing, maybe guru might know about this. Apparently the visible head of the nail is the same as any other, but when the wood rots away it reveals something strange; the entire nail is SPIRALLED, within the wood. My dad tells me there was a special tool they used to use that would cause a straight nail to spiral completely at least 3 or 4 complete curls within the wood. How can this happen? Have you heard of this before? I've been making nails from scratch for a while and would like to know how this process happens as I would like to replicate it. |
| - Nippulini - Wednesday, 03/01/06 09:13:30 EST |
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TGN, For many years, nails have been available with spiral-twist shanks. This is to aid in resisting withdrawal forces. The nails are made this way; as far as I know, there is no "special tool" that creates the twist as the nail is driven in. Logic tells me that a round shanked nail is not going to assume a twist no matter what, and twisting a square shanked nail as it is driven would almost surely result in it following the grain with potentially disastrous results. There is a technique used by house framers to cause a nail to curve in the wood, to increase following of the grain when toenailing. To do this, the very tip of the nail, perhaps 3/16" in or so, is bent at about a 15° angle before driving it in. That bent tip is aimed longitudinally into the wood when starting the toenail, while the remainder of the nail is still at an angle that allows it to be driven with the hammer. The nail will then follow the curve of the tip, maiking it bend to run down the grain of the wood. |
| vicopper - Wednesday, 03/01/06 10:09:49 EST |
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More Lathe Questions: I bought an American Tool Works 16x50 lathe just before Christmas. It did come with quite a bit of tooling, but there a few things that I don't have. I don't have any tooling that fits in the head stock spindle such as a center or collets. How do you figure out the taper of the spindle and tail stock to know which tooling to purchase? I don't know the year the lathe was made, but I suspect early 1900's. It appears to be a "cross-over" type machine in that it has a cone pulley in the head stock, but appears to have been provided with a gear box from the factoroy that allows an electric motor to be used without having to change pulleys. The gear box and motor mount directly above the cone pulley in the head stock. Patrick Patrick |
| Patrick Nowka - Wednesday, 03/01/06 10:20:06 EST |
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Hmmm, that sounds like it, but if you saw these nails you'd be scratching your heads too. They aren't twisted, they're spiralled. The only thing I can think of that would cause this is if the angle of the nail was bent down at each strike, but how would the end of the nail have a tight curl while the head portion would have a loose curl? I need to get a pic and send it to you so you can see. |
| - Nippulini - Wednesday, 03/01/06 11:30:43 EST |
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Cross Over Lathe - Tapers: These were made in the 1930's through 50's. There was an outfit that made retrofit shift lever gear motors specifically for old line shaft drive machine tools. A few manufacturers put them on old style machines before commiting to modernized enclosed designs with electric motors. There are a number of standard tapers for machine tools (see Machinery's Handbook for details). About the only way to be sure is to try one in the spindle. Morse taper's were the most common and I would try there. They run from little #0 tapers that are about 3/8" at the large end to big #7's that are about 3-1/4" at the big end. Ask someone that has machinery if you can borrow something with a taper that is about the size you have. Shops will often have an old broken tapered shank drill or buggered up sleave they would not mind loaning out. Another way to check an inside taper is to take a cast of the taper then measure it. Melted sulfur was commonly used for this type of thing because it does not shrink when it freezes. Plaster will do and is more commonly available today. Plug the spindle bore just beyond the taper, fit a cardboard funnel to the front of the spindle, oil the bore lightly and then pour the plaster of Paris. When it has hardened remove and measure. Compare the dimensions to those in Machinery's Handbook. You could do the same with wax but shrinkage and sticking may be a problem. For measuring these type things a good pair of dial calipers is best. The knife edges work best on tapers and you also need to measure the distance between taking two measurements so that you can calculate the taper per foot (about 5/8" per foot for Morse). You can also check the tailstock OR even remove the ram and take it to someone that has tapered shank tooling and test it. If the tailstock is a Morse (or Jarno or B&S) taper then the spindle will be the same but larger (on all old lathes). Old lathes generaly did not use a collet system. The taper in the head stock was for a center as much turning was done between centers, one in the spindle the other in the tailstock. The most precision shaft turning is done this way. Parts with bores were turned on expanding arbors running between centers. Usualy chucks were used on the threaded spindle. As mentioned above they are readily available new and used but the adaptor flange will need to be made on the lathe itself (unless you are very lucky). Some adaptors are available from chuck manufacturers but I would not count on it. To make the adaptor start with a block of steel or a cast iron blank. Measure the lathe spindle carefully and check Machinery's Handbook for the thread specs. However, you want to match the spindle threads more than meet a standard. Then,
If your chuck is a 3 jaw scroll chuck this needs to be done as precise as possible as the pilot fit determines how true the chuck and work runs. If a 4 jaw universal then the fit is not so critical. This is one of those more technical jobs on a lathe and a tough one to be thrown into as a first project. Carefully read your Machinery's and machine shop manual on chasing internal threads. If you are lucky you will only have to do this once or twice. . . I was lucky on my big South Bend and my little Craftsman lathes. Both take standard threads and I found nuts to fit the spindles. This makes it easy to make consumable face plates and odd spindle tooling by welding a plate to the nuts. Check your spindle and see if something standard fits. This is an easy way to make a face plate if you do not have one. Otherwise you have to do the threading part of the machining job above on another lathe. . . |
| - guru - Wednesday, 03/01/06 12:55:51 EST |
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Frank: Thanks for the information on the cast iron spark testing. I'll try a known piece of CI against the "mystery metal." Still trying to clear things up for Guam from the banks of the Potomac, four years after the typhoon. http://www.nps.gov/wapa/ |
| Bruce Blackistone (Atli) - Wednesday, 03/01/06 13:01:34 EST |
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What type of chisel is used for slitting an eye in a 'hawk? Is it just a regular thin hot slitter or does it have rounded corners? |
| - Tyler Murch - Wednesday, 03/01/06 13:51:44 EST |
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Tyler: It has rounded corners and sharp-ish sides. They're easy to make with a tapered shaft, and that way you can also start the drifting with the same tool. You do have to open up the eye a little to get the regular hawk drift in. When slitting haevy stock like hawks, it helps to drill pilot holes at each end of the slit. If your slitting chisel edges are the least bit asymmetrical the chisel will cut on the diagonal through the stock, coming out the bottom closer to one side than the other. This will make you think impure thoughts and give voice to bad words. Small pilot holes (3/16" or so) will help guide the chisel, and cold-chiselling the starting line for the slit will help as well. If you're really having problems with keeping the slit centered you can even drill the whole thing as a line of smaller holes (1/8" or so) and just slit the web between the holes, but you have more cleanup to do this way. |
| Alan-L - Wednesday, 03/01/06 14:08:33 EST |
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I am building a small homemade forge, how big of a blower will I need, they are rated in CFM's. |
| Bercegeay - Wednesday, 03/01/06 15:27:51 EST |
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Other help: Many folks slit critical holes from both sides. If the center where they meet is rough it is not critical. This takes another heat and is more steps but if you want true work it is a good way to go. I prefer this rather than drilling holes. See our iForge demo on punching and slitting. The correct edges for this type thing is shown. |
| - guru - Wednesday, 03/01/06 15:29:47 EST |
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Blowers: Bercegeay, 140 CFM is about the minimum and 300 the max. Although not given on most small blowers the head or column pressure is more important in forge blowers than specific CFM. Coal, coke and charcoal fires tned to be dense and need the pressure to get air through the fire. Large diameter slow turning blowers are best. Those sold by our advertisers are generally the type you want. |
| - guru - Wednesday, 03/01/06 15:34:52 EST |
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211 Steel Symbol? Picked up a beer can from the roadside. Steel Reverve Lager. Can has large 211 on it and notes, "The Two Eleven Mark, based on the medieval symbol for steel..." I did a Google search on 211 steel and it was mostly on the brewing company. If accurate, what did the 211 represent in Medieval days? Been on the beer wagon for severals years now, but friends tell me this is a pretty decent beer and black label is slightly better than white label. |
| Ken Scharabok - Wednesday, 03/01/06 17:30:40 EST |
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How do I flatten the top of the anvil I'm fixing. I've got the edges built up, but my main problem is with the face being too rounded. |
| Aron Obrecht - Wednesday, 03/01/06 18:08:20 EST |
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Alright Alan and guru, thanks. I took my Peddinghaus hot slitting chisel tapered it, rounded the corners and beveled the sides. What I did on the sides was put a wide bevel on it that fades back to flat further back. Is this how it is done and will this keep a cold shut from forming? |
| - Tyler Murch - Wednesday, 03/01/06 18:46:28 EST |
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Aron, Hand grinding with a HD angle grinder. Then weld up the flaws and porosity and grind again. Repeat as needed. |
| - guru - Wednesday, 03/01/06 18:55:45 EST |
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Tyler, I'm not sure what that chisel looks like to start with (thickness and taper). But sounds right. |
| - guru - Wednesday, 03/01/06 18:57:36 EST |
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Ken the only symbol I know for iron is the circle and arrow the same symbol used to represent the male sex. |
| - guru - Wednesday, 03/01/06 19:08:31 EST |
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Tyler, Slit chisels are sharpened with an included angle on the sides and bottom equaling each other. The depth on the sides depends on how deep you're going into the hot steel. The reason for sharpening the sides is to give a thin, slit effect to the workpiece. If the sides were not worked, it would have a cold chisel effect and each end of the cut would be squared up rather that thin and smooth. The corner radii are there to dissipate heat better than a right angled corner. The latter will heat immediately and roll over, causing difficulty in withdrawing the chisel. Are you doing the gun barrel method? I like to drive the chisel from both sides. From the first side, go a little more than half way. Go to the other side and try to meet the first cut near the middle. Schwarzkopf has a nice drawing of a slit chisel, "Plain and Ornamental Forging". |
| Frank Turley - Wednesday, 03/01/06 20:10:13 EST |
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guru, How are the inside radiused corners achieved on say a copper sink. I was thinking with a press brake. This would leave a few areas where you would have to weld. I have tried to weld copper before and I know from experience that it really like to warp when you put the heat to it. I am just baffled how a copper sink is fabricated with radiused corners so cleanly. I know this doesn't really pertain to blacksmithing, but if you could offer some advice I would appreciate it. THank you. |
| Josh - Wednesday, 03/01/06 20:30:17 EST |
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Ken, My second paragraph referred to repairing the cast steel anvils for Erie steam powered drop hammers. The anvil on these hammers had the sow block and the side bolsters attached to it. These things are much like an iceburg as about 2/3 of the anvil is out of sight as they go down into the floor to keep the working height from being too high. For reference a 25,000# hammer like the Erie we had had a approx 5' x 5' die block, and was probably about 10' square at the top. At the 50:1 rule that means a 1,250,000 anvil. These were usually in three pieces to allow moving. When onebreaks, the crack repair is a massive job. At the last plant I worked at we had a Mexican location with a cracked 13,000# hammer, and the job was estimated at 6 weeks and about 60003 or weld metal. |
| ptree - Wednesday, 03/01/06 20:32:27 EST |
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Josh, Those sinks are generally made with a hulking big stamping press and male/female dies. Start with dead soft annealed copper sheet and end up with a full hard copper sink after several hundred tons of pressure is applied. Really deep drawing might take a mid-step annealing and progressive dies. |
| vicopper - Wednesday, 03/01/06 21:31:17 EST |
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Frank, I was going to do the method you described (from each side).What is the gun barrel method? I-forge demo #12, the spike axe, shows Bill Epps' slitting punch. It looks strange. I'll have to make one like that and try it out too. |
| - Tyler Murch - Wednesday, 03/01/06 22:02:08 EST |
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Copper Sink: Vicopper covered it pretty well. Many items are made this way including parts of steel, stainless, copper, brass and more. Depending on the material and depth of draw the dies may do the job in one pass or many. Today the tendancy is to use very special materials and very well designed dies to get parts out in one stroke of the press. Look at drink cans. These are deep drawn from specialy processed high purity aluminium. Auto body parts and pieces like oil pans and valve covers are deep drawn from steel. |
| - guru - Wednesday, 03/01/06 23:02:30 EST |
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Deep drawing:It is done as vicopper stated, there is a restricter or draw ring that confines the material so it doesn't fold at the corners and try to pull multiple thicknesses of material between the punch and die. Crown Cork and Seal in Philly used to make steel beverage cans like the ones commonly made of aluminum now. The first step drew them to about the size and shape of a tunafish can, and the second operation turned them inside out and drew them to full depth, and reduced the wall thickness from .012" to about .004" The second operation is called a reverse redraw, and allows for great reductions. I guess the aluminum ones are done in a similar fashion, but I havn't seen it. |
| Dave Boyer - Wednesday, 03/01/06 23:37:50 EST |
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Tyler, There's an appendix by Milford Chandler in Peterson's book, "American Indian Tomahawks". Chandler describes with drawings several methods of making pipe tomahawks. Sometimes, contemporary muzzleloding barrel makers will mistakenly bore off center, or the rifling gets screwed up, and they will sell these octagonal barrels cheaply. The short length near the muzzle becomes the pipe bowl. Just below that, the barrel is flattened enough to close the bore and slit chiseled on edge. It is then drifted. The blade can then be flattened and forge welded together, or a high carbon bit can be laid in and bird's-mouth welded. Pipe stem hafts and more information on the construction of pipe tomahawks can be obtained through Crazy Crow Trading Post, Pottsboro, Texas. www.crazycrow.com HEADING OUT OF TOWN FOR AN INDIAN DANCE, SO I'LL MISS Y'ALL FOR A FEW DAYS. HOUSE AND DOG SITTER COMING IN TOMORROW MORNING. |
| Frank Turley - Thursday, 03/02/06 00:17:05 EST |
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Hello, I need some help with the gates not hangig. The scroll and hammmerd bars that I used are very heavy specialy in large gates. In the old times they transfer the weight to the floor standing the gate on some kind of pivot, how or weare do I get something like that or make it. Thanks |
| Nelson - Thursday, 03/02/06 01:35:44 EST |
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Hej Guru! You are quite the know it all ! For fun I can elaborate a bit. The ancient iron symbol you described is still used widely in Sweden to indicate iron deposits on maps, or just indicate iron in general. I dont know if its used much outside Sweden or elsewhere in Scandinavia for that matter. Hundreds of Swedish companies incorporate that symbol into their Logos, Everything from the well known companies Volvo to the neighborhood hardware store. As well the same Logo is used by astronomy to indicate the planet Mars, I would guess this iron symbol was adopted as the so called 'Red Planet Mars' perhaps thought to be a giant iron deposit. |
| - Håkan - Thursday, 03/02/06 02:25:16 EST |
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Gate Design: Nelson, There are a number of ways to aproach this. The first if using scrolls is to design them such that they create diagonal lines from the top hinge side to the bottom latch side. The small filler scrolls help create these lines. Those that are structural need to be heavier than the others or as heavy as the primary scrolls. The connections of the structural scrolls needs to be strong and tight, adequate to support the entire load of the gate. If done correctly the structural parts of the gate are mearly part of the overall design. In some scroll designs the results are a network of triangles that is very strong. The other way that sag is addressed is to use a heavy frame. Often small gate frames are made of 1.25" square bar and large gates up to 2" square bar with forged buttressed joints welded or mortised and tenoned together very tightly. The filler elements are considerably lighter and supported by the frame. Yet another way that is commonly used is to have a solid thin plate pannel at the bottom or middle of the gate. When used at the bottom it looks like a kick plate and at the middle a privacy band or fence rail. The flat plate have great strength in the vertical axis and when suported in the frame acts like a structural beam. Load and deflection of this member can be calculated using classic beam formulae. Lastly there is the diagonal tension bar. This is usualy a FIX on an old or poorly designed gate. However, some smiths work this into their design as part of the artistic effect. In good gate design you often see a combination of the above methods. On heavy steel gates there will always be sag and it should be compensated for by building with the ends slightly higher than the supported side OR by putting camber in the frame members. In some cases such as with the solid panel the amount of sag can be calculated and the gate built so that it will hang straight. In other cases it is guessed at or based on experiance. The emperical way to determine sag without building the gate is to anchor the ends of all the horizontal bars to a heavy bench like a weld platten and then apply the load of the vertical non structural members to the horizontals. The correct way to do this is with the pieces spread along the horizontals (distributed load) but you can get an approximation by using about 1/4 the total weight at the far end (I think - some calculus is needed here). Then measure the sag and build the gate in reverse. In the heavy frame design you build the frame, add load at the center then check the sag. Adjust the frame accordingly then complete construction. Some smiths build the gate, hang it, check the sag then bend the entire gate UP to reverse the sag. In this and the heavy frame method above a lot of heating with rosebuds and puching with jackes is required. The mathematical model for calculating the above is using a beam (the horizontals) supported rigidly at one end with a distributed load. You can use one horizonal and a proportionate amount of the loading elelments to perform this calculation. Calculating sag with diagonal members is more complicated but can be done. However once in the ball park you can just guess and be close enough. The other aspect of gate design is overal strength. You can assume that SOMEONE will climb or ride any gate. This is the weight of one adult at the end of the gate. Sag is expected but not permanent deformation. Then on large public gates you should assume a riot or a mob storming the gates. Support legs that contact the ground under heavy loading can prevent the hinges from pulling out and the gate from deforming. These legs must be such that they do not interfer with the opening of the gate (flat ground). They are often incorporated into a center lock pin arrangement. This is where blacksmithing becomes engineering and those days in algebra class were not wasted. . . |
| - guru - Thursday, 03/02/06 09:38:27 EST |
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Iron and Mars These are linked because Mars was the god of war and iron is the primary metal of war (as well as industry). But at the time alchemy was developing iron was used more for weapons and defense than for other purposes. I think that the fact that the planet Mars is red was associated more with the color of blood and thus the association with war but that is only a guess. These associations are MUCH earlier than than the use of alchemal symbols. On maps in the US there is a little crossed pick ax and shovel symbol used to indicate mines with no differenciation as to the type of metal. In our culture the symbol is thought more of as a sexual symbol and few people know it is the symbol for iron and Mars. |
| - guru - Thursday, 03/02/06 09:57:43 EST |
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Just a cautionary note; we also need to be aware that larger iron gates can amass enough weight to injure or kill if they come off of their hinge points. There was a case of this concerning a young girl and an iron gate at a local Quaker cemetery sometime in the 19th century and people still talk about it. Mass has it's dangers, so listen to the Guru and do it right. |
| Bruce Blackistone (Atli) - Thursday, 03/02/06 10:09:11 EST |
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Reverse Draw: Dave, I had never heard of that. Makes sense as one surface would be stretched more than the other. . maybe. Hmmmm. .. if the first draw is a larger diameter than the second then the flat bottom of the first is wrapped around the die in the second requiring much less stretch of the metal. It could also just be loosening the material on the punch so that it would have less friction on the second pass. . . I'll have to look that one up. The outfit that makes the majority of the worlds beverage can manufacturing machinery is in my home town of Lynchburg, VA. Never been in the plant or saw the machines operate. I do know that the big breweries have huge wharehouses that hold millions of empty cans one day and they are gone the next. . . |
| - guru - Thursday, 03/02/06 10:26:03 EST |
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Heavy Gates: I am finicky when it comes to anchoring heavy gates. It seems to be normal to have un-reinforced masonry pillars put up before contracting the gates with absolutely no forethought to the loads or how to anchor the gates. A friend of mine built a pair of gates that weighed over a half ton each. The architect had a sketch of what they wanted but without any structural considerations. The problem with heavy gates of this nature is that they can cause the columns to lean, shifting their footings. Then original gates were part of a wall where many tons of twelve foot high stone and brick would balance the load of the gates. The modern design was for two columns with decorative side supports. What we recommend and what was built: A structural beam set in the footings joining the two columns. In the direction the gates would hang open the footings extended under ground and were steel reinforced. Attached to this was two lighter steel verticals with the hinge anchor points welded on. The massive columns were built on this and the gates hung from the internal steel anchors. There was a decorative crest that extended from one column to the other over the gates but as heavy as this was it could not be counted upon for structural support. Gates often operate on electro mechanical openers and the mechanism is put under the driveway between the columns. All this must be designed into the package. In Central America where gates are a big part of life and almost every home and business has them it is common to use sliding gates. These have no sagging problem as they run on wheels on the ground and in guides above the gate. Openers are simple garage door types that pull chains hooked to the gate. However, steel is expensive, cranes hard to come by and labor is relatively cheap. These gates are made largely out of hollow structural tubing and even curved parts made of pipe and tubing. Picketts are most commonly square tubing with the ends flattened and sheared into a flame or spear point. Although not as beautiful as gracefully worked solid steel these gates are light weight and avoid many of the problems of the heavy gate. |
| - guru - Thursday, 03/02/06 10:52:13 EST |
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Nelson, On very heavy gates it makes a great deal of sense to support the hinge side from the ground as much as possible, rather than depend on the withdrawal strength of the hinge pintles in the vertical post or wall. There are a few different ways of doing this. One fairly common way is to make the vertical element at the hinge side extend to the ground where it becomes a pin-in-a-hole hinge arrangement. Usually a heavy plate is set flush with grade in concrete, with a slightly raised boss that is drilled to accept the pin end of the vertical member. Two hardened bearing washers are used to handle the load friction and kept greased. This will work for years before there is a need to add a washer or two to compensate for wear. The hole for the pin is best if it is bushed with bronze, so it is maintainable. Another method is to use a thrust bearing on the pivot point. The same sort of thrust bearing as is used on a truck axle works like a charm, provided it is mounted so that is does not get continually filled with water and dirt. The easiest way to do this is to make the pivot axle as part of the base plate set in concrete, and to mount the tapered roller bearing in a race that is built to the bottom of the gate. This keeps it above grade and free of contaminants. It can be equipped with a Zerk fitting for lubrication, too. Study how axle thrust bearings are built and you will see how to build one using parts from the junkyard. Such an arrangement can be built to withstand thousands of pounds of loading and high angular moment forces relatively cheaply. For exceptionally long and heavy gates, you will very likely have to equip the swinging end of the gate with a caster wheel to take SOME of the load. Do not expectit to take all the load, or the gate will be impossible to swing. When designing the caster wheel, remember that it rolls in a fixed arc, so it must be able to follow that path without scrubbing. This means it has to have either a cambered mount or a cambered tread. Properly, I suppose I shouldn't call it a caster wheel, since it can't really be castered; it has to have a fixed-axis axle to work well. You can successfully spring-mount a gate caster to accomodate uneven ground, but that somewhat decreases the load it can reasonably bear. It is far better to have the grade surface as truly horizntal and even as possible, but that never happens in real life, does it? |
| vicopper - Thursday, 03/02/06 10:53:46 EST |
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i am trying to find a chemical to rust metal in an accelerated manner. i remember there was an old smithi worked for that had a blue chemical that when applied and left in the sun it would rust in a matter of minutes. i be;lieve it to have been phosphoric acid, but am not sure. if you have the answer do you know if i can find it in comman found chemicals. thanks |
| brady foster - Thursday, 03/02/06 11:11:39 EST |
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Rust finish: Combine 1 Pint of hydrogen peroxide, 2 tables spoons salt, 1/4 cup vinegar. Mix well intil salt is dissolved, place in a spray bottle. Metal must be cleaned to remove oils and dirt. Then spray or brush a light coat onto the metal and let it work until desired level of rust is achieved. Jock, great info on gate support. Don't supppose you could post a sketch of that, could you? |
| Bob H - Thursday, 03/02/06 12:40:09 EST |
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Brady, A common rustant is Chlorox bleach. Works pretty fast depending on how dilute and the condition or the steel. Phosophoric acid turns rust black and leaves some white streaks. On scale is leaves a frosted looking finish. It sold under the brand name Ospho as a paint preprep. It is a fast and dirty prep for painting but not for serious long lasting work. |
| - guru - Thursday, 03/02/06 12:41:23 EST |
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Brady, An alternative method for "rust" is to apply a stain like mason's cement stain mixed with 10 parts denatured alcohol to 1 part of shellac, allow to dry, then apply contrasting /complimentary rust colors mixed as the base coat, dry overnight, and seal with Krylon clear matte spray. This is an interior finish. Or, clean and prime bare metal, apply flat black paint, let dry, then highlight textured metal pieces and details with "sandalwood" guilders paste, dry brush or stipple with "rich gold" guilders paste. An acid brush dipped in mineral spirits then the guilders paste works well. Use only a small amount of this color as too much looks gaudy. This is often called "Hollywood Rust". Buff with a soft shoe brush when dry. Dry overnight. Seal with Krylon clear matte spray. Apply paste wax and buff with soft shoe brush or lint free cloth. This is also an interior finish. Both of these methods allow control of the finished colors to a high degree and avoid the problems of continued rusting of the metal under the applied finish that may occur with chemical rusting procedures. These techniques are used in high end custom homes for decorative railings and interior doors, and are pleasing to the architects and designers for custom homes. A tough market to enter, but once established with these key people lots of work should follow. High paying work. The above courtesy of John Crouchet, Texas Wrought Iron, and the Arizona Artist Blacksmith Association as published in The Anvil's Horn, issue no. 119, March 2006. |
| Ellen - Thursday, 03/02/06 13:12:46 EST |
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Buffer Specs: I have a grinder but am looking for a 8inch dedicated buffer to do finish work/polishing on metals. Questions: Rotation speed. Most I see around are spinning around 3450 rpm, would I be better at about 1750 rpm and paying more for it? Also, Horsepower or Amps. Would 3/4 HP do it or do I need more? This is not a commercial shop and won't be running 10 hours a day, but I am getting tired of swapping stones and wire brushes off my 8 inch grinder and want something dedicated since I seem to be using it more and more lately. Thanks in advance. JW |
| Jim Warren - Thursday, 03/02/06 14:20:09 EST |
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Buffer Specs: I mean this as a bench buffer, not a hand held one. |
| Jim Warren - Thursday, 03/02/06 14:22:04 EST |
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"nessesity is the mother of invention" whats the father? no joke I'm realy stumped. |
| - packrat - Thursday, 03/02/06 14:26:21 EST |
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Packrat: I recently heard a bladesmith say it was Frustration. |
| Alan-L - Thursday, 03/02/06 14:50:17 EST |
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Forgot to add, I personally suspect the true culprit is laziness. I submit the television remote as exhibit A. (grin!) |
| Alan-L - Thursday, 03/02/06 14:51:38 EST |
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Just the other day I was Dissing Grizzly tools- but they do make one of the nicest buffers around. The guy who owns Grizzly makes guitars as a hobby, and so he has specialised guitar making power tools made in asia. He keeps one for himself, and puts them in his catalog. Virtually every major american guitar company, including Fender and Gibson, use Grizzly tools. Guitar makers like his variable speed buffers- not cheap, but very good at what they do. Go to www.grizzly.com, and look up tool no. G0530 VS Buffer- 5hp, variable speed from 100rpm to 1500 rpm. Yep, its pricey, but its the ultimate way to go. Now if you arent willing to spend $1400, at least you know what features to work towards. 3450 is way too fast- even 1750 is too fast if your buffing wheel is much bigger than about 4" in diameter. As the Beastie Boys say- low and slow- that is the tempo. |
| - Ries - Thursday, 03/02/06 15:33:54 EST |
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what is the history of Blacksmithing |
| - Red - Thursday, 03/02/06 16:48:40 EST |
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There's a pretty good video of aluminum cans being drawn near the bottom of the page here: http://blog.nam.org/archives/coolstuffbeingmadecom_weekend_video/ A lot of other videos on interesting subjects too; some are better than others. I won't comment on the site's politics. |
| Mike B - Thursday, 03/02/06 17:48:58 EST |
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Ah, Red, the history of blacksmithing! Laddy, the history of blacksmithing is the history of mankind itself! It is a saga rich in adventure, in daring efforts of herculean labour. Nay, it is an epic set to the music of the anvil! Why, I daresay, it is a tapestry upon which is scriven the very yearning of mankind-- and womankind, too-- to master the unyielding elements and transcend the limits of mortality. Why, Red... but I do go on. I must pause here for my confreres to add their contributions.... |
| Miles Undercut - Thursday, 03/02/06 19:25:45 EST |
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I saw a film on high speed headers in the 70'2 and it had a bit on making aluminum pop cans in a high speed cold header. As I recall, it was more of an extrusion process. A disc was throw into the die, and the ram entered the 5/8" deep die, forcing the can wall to extrude between the die and ram. They had to slow the film down a bunch to allow seeing the action as I think I recall something like 3600 cans a hour for the rate. all done cold. In the forge trade this would be reverse extrusion. My Dad was in the forward extrusion trade for 40+ years. This is where a metal, aluminum in his case is pushed through a die much like a playdough factory toy. This produces things like picture frame moldings, storm window moldings etc. A 6" od billet 36" long would often produce several hundred feet of squiggley extrusion. This was then stretched about 11% by eye producing the straight extrusion. |
| ptree - Thursday, 03/02/06 19:34:03 EST |
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Red: Re the history of blacksmithing. That is a huge question that could take a lot of study. Why do you ask? If this is a homework assignment, we don't do homework here. If not, be more specific, ask a question that covers some tiny aspect of the craft. |
| - John Odom - Thursday, 03/02/06 19:39:28 EST |
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History of Blacksmithing: To add to what Miles waxed poetically about. . . It is the history of technology starting with the first tool, the hammer used by the ancestors of humankind to crack nuts and grind grains, and the second tool the lever used to pry rocks out of the ground. It starts with that first haftless hammer which develops into the true hammer shaped by other stones and hafted on wood with animal sinue. It is the history of metals starting with native metals like copper, silver and gold which could be picked up from the ground and worked with simple tools, especially the hammer. It is the history of metallurgy starting when mankind learned how to extract metals from ores and how to combine metals in the forge. It is the history of tools developed in the bronze age (hammers, anvils, chisels, tongs, files and saws) which were immediately found to be much more durable and useful when made of iron when it became widely available. It is the history of mans development of tools and technology starting with the iron age some 3500 years ago or more and continues to this day. As Bill Miller wrote When the first blacksmith began hammering on a hot piece of iron little did he know how he was shaping the future. He forged the tools that made the machines that produce everything mankind has today. The blacksmith was the pioneer of the technology that carried mankind from the iron age to the space age. It can truly be said that the first rocket to the moon was virtually launched from the face of the anvil.If you want to know the history of blacksmithing you must study the history of technology. A good place to start is the Time Life series, The Emergence of Man. Jump forward a few thousand years and follow this with a study of all the illustrations in A Diderot Pictorial Encylopedia of Trades and Industry. After that any book on the history of technology will do. Then read Alex Bealers The Art of Blacksmithing which describes the state of the art in the 19th and early 20th century. See also the Autobiography of James Nasmyth (we have a copy on-line). Any book about James Watt and the Steam Engine is enlightening as are the histories of Eli Whittney. Enjoy your research fascinating subject |
| - guru - Thursday, 03/02/06 19:57:29 EST |
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Buffing Speed: It depends on the material being buffed and how the buff is to be used. In the guitar industry mentioned by Ries they buff and polish mostly laquer paint a relatively soft substance. For lacquer you run slow with soft unsewn or loosely sewn cotton buffs. For copper alloys and precious metals you use slightly higher speed and harder buffs with tripoli for cutting and polishing and the super soft buffs for especialy bright finishes using rouge. For hard brass and bronze you use higher speeds and harder wheels with tripoli to cut (reduce the surface of rough castings and such). For steel you use the same setup but with hard emery abrasive and for hard steel diamond powder is sometimes used. As you can see there are different processes. Cutting is used a lot in industrial polishing operations but it leaves a wavy surface. In custom knifemaking you use other abrasives on hard surfaces to make flat smooth steel which requires little buffing to bring to a bright finish. But you also buff brass, silver epoxies and laquers. All of needs something diferent. Speeds are best figured in feet per minute. A 6" wheel at 1800 RPM yeilds 2827 feet per minute but a 4" wheel only 1883 and an 8" wheel 5654. This wide range of speeds all from putting your buff on the shaft of a standard motor. I use a 3.5" buff for getting insude candle cups that runs on a 3500 RPM shaft. This yeilds 3207 fpm or a little more than the 6" wheel at 1800 RPM. These ranges cover cutting in steel to light buffing on plastic. Start with how fast you want to go and work back. |
| - guru - Thursday, 03/02/06 21:28:18 EST |
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Jock-- that was only just the intro. Tell this aspiring acolyte about the major motion picture coming soon to a theater near him, perhaps starring Colin Farrell as you, Brad Pitt as the anvil, Angelina Jolie as Ellen, Wilfred Brimley as the grumpy old codger with the heart of gold, and a cast of thousands, all selflessly sharing the hard-won secrets of their craft.... |
| Miles Undercut - Thursday, 03/02/06 22:05:14 EST |
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For impressive deep drawing look at an oxy tank! Thomas |
| Thomas P - Thursday, 03/02/06 22:09:29 EST |
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I want a pitted and rusty finish. Does the above recipe work for pitting too? |
| - Rob - Thursday, 03/02/06 22:10:45 EST |
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Rob, For pitting, you need to add one ingredient to that formula: Tincture of Time. |
| vicopper - Thursday, 03/02/06 22:37:30 EST |
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Rob, If you're referring to the metal finishes I posted above, the object of them is NOT to rust the surface of the metal, but to make it look rusted. |
| Ellen - Thursday, 03/02/06 22:40:02 EST |
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Miles, The above question on blacksmithing takes me back to a historical geology class I took at U of A. The final exam had only one question on it: "Discuss the history of the earth throughout geologic time. Include maps, sketches and diagrams where appropriate". Grin! I can't wait to see the move. Can we get Chris Cooper in there somewhere? I enjoyed him in The Patriot and Seabiscuit. I like Brad Pitt, he's real easy to look at......hmmmm. |
| Ellen - Thursday, 03/02/06 22:45:44 EST |
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Ptree: The process You described is how cartrige casings are made, I have heard it called impact extrusion, but that may not be the proper name. |
| Dave Boyer - Thursday, 03/02/06 23:48:17 EST |
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Jock: The benifit of the reverse redraw is that the wrinkles dont start to form. The die is cilindrical, the can from the first stage fits snugly over the outside diameter of the die, and the draw radius goes through 180 degrees, from the outside of the die to the inside. I don't remember if there was a draw ring. Only the press that made the first stage was an off the shelf machine, a good sised Minster,probably a couple hundred ton, not that it took all that much, made a bunch of parts per hit and cycled as needed to keep the conveyer belt full. All the rest of the equiptment was custom built off site, perhaps at the plant You mentioned. As the cans were steel, magnets under conveyer belts carried the parts up walls and across the celing. this operation could not have readily changed to aluminum. The Bahamas was still using steel cans in the early '90s, but I havn't seen a new one in a while. |
| Dave Boyer - Friday, 03/03/06 00:04:34 EST |
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Ellen-- absolutely! Cooper made a great sheriff in Lone Star. In this epic, he can be an OSHA inspector who sees the light. Speaking of cinematographic art, there was a nifty anvil-shooting scene in the Reese Witherspoon Alabama flick on ABC tonight. No anvils were harmed. |
| Miles Undercut - Friday, 03/03/06 00:07:23 EST |
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I like the answer someone gave last year as to the history of blacksmithing: "Man has been pounding on metal since the earth was flat" I wish I knew who to credit for that remark. |
| Dave Boyer - Friday, 03/03/06 00:13:24 EST |
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AISI 9260, what specific temperature does this steel loose its magnetic attraction? What is the proper austentizing or hardening temperature for this steel? |
| - Andrew T - Friday, 03/03/06 00:14:03 EST |
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Pitting: The best way to create deep pits in a fairly short period of time is to paint over dirty fluxy rusty scaly steel then scratch and chip the paint and expose to a humid environment. The flux and dirt expand and hold moisture under the paint and you have pits galore. . . Very strong acid (stronger than you want to handle) is required to create a deep crusty rust fast. Individual deep pits are caused by localized corsion that requires trapped moisture as above. Back to Ellen's method. Something I repeatedly tell smiths is that the finish is a full HALF of the job, AND if Hollywood can make wood and plaster look like stone, steel or even wrought iron then blacksmiths CERTAINLY should. The finish is part of the art. To create a pitted finish with paint start with clean steel and cold galvanize it. Then apply a thick coat of red oxide primer (OR a thin coat then a thick coat of gesso). Apply random pits through the primer coat with a sharp pecking hammer or dull chipping hammer. Spray paint with the color of your choice. IF rust red then be sure to use a red top finish NOT primer. Then use hand rubbed tinted varnish or antiqueing paint to highlight the pits with a darker color. Artists oil colors can also be used but do not produce a very hard finish. I prefer using automotive finishes and combinations of dusting on the paint with a spray gun and hand rubbed finishes. Start with your selected base coat and rub on several thin tinting layers that collect in corners and rough places and in no time you can have a very aged looking finish. Don't forget that fine lichen and mosses grow on painted surfaces. These can be easily replicated with some bright green offspray dusted on at a distance. You can also go to powder coaters. They have a wide array of textured finishes. I am not crazy about most of them but the are fast, efficient and the average customer loves them. |
| - guru - Friday, 03/03/06 00:31:21 EST |
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Non-Magnetic A2 Point: This is the same for all steels 1425°F. The actual upper transformation transformation temperature Ac3 is higher for low to medium carbon steels 1690°F downward and lower than A2 from about 55 point carbon steel up to 85 point carbon where it is 1350°F spiking back to 1500°F for 90 point carbon steel. 60 point steel is right about at the A2 point. This silicon alloy steel is hardened by heating to 1600°F and quenching in oil. Temper immediately to a minimum of 300°F or higher. |
| - guru - Friday, 03/03/06 00:45:39 EST |
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I have a welding/brazing question. Got a design using some stainless cable and need to attach end stops that will recieve a small amount of pulling force. Best way, quickest way? thanks jamie |
| Jamie - Friday, 03/03/06 01:08:05 EST |
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Ok .. thank you gurus for all the good advice concerning my interests in metalworking chuck in omaha |
| chuck in omaha - Friday, 03/03/06 02:03:55 EST |
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Jamie - The best way is to use Nicro Press stop sleves, copper slugs with a hole in them. These are swaged onto the cable with a tool, the simple ones are two blocks of steel with the proper cavity machined into them compressed by bolts that You tighten with a wrench. Another tool looks like a bolt cutter but has the swaging dies in place of cutting blades. These can be found in a GOOD hardware store or atr a marine chandlery. Alternatly You could silver solder a stainless or steel slug over the end of the cable, ot TIG weld the slug to the cable, Both of these methods rate a distant second. |
| Dave Boyer - Friday, 03/03/06 02:51:39 EST |
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Chuck; You're quite welcome. I got your e-mail, so you're welcome twice. (grin) |
| 3dogs - Friday, 03/03/06 04:27:37 EST |
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Jamie: Re Cable ends: Dave is right. the welding/brazing is nowhere near as strong as the swaged-on fittings. Welding gives a weakened heat affected zone. Here in Chattanooga the wire-rope dealer from whom I buy my cable will put ends on for only the price of the fittings. For small cables, 1/16", I have made swaging dies to go in a vise grip. I recommend you check with your cable supplier. |
| - John Odom - Friday, 03/03/06 08:58:22 EST |
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Cable Ends: Way back in my Soap Box Derby Days we used 5/64" stainless aircraft cable for the stearing. This was fastened with crimps made of steel tubing. We used copper at first but it would slip so we had to use steel. Now, you must keep in mind that small 1/4" ID tubing has a relatively thick wall compared to the size of the cable. On larger cable you would need to find something in a thick wall schedule 80 DOM pipe and proportionately heavier as the size goes up. We started with 5/16" long pieces of the 1/4" tubing with throughly deburred and rounded edges. This was flattened slightly and the two cable ends slipped through. The tube was then flattened with Vise Grips and then the space between the cables crimped with a specially ground chisel with a rounded end like a small fuller. This pushed the cables tightly to the sides and prepared for the next step. Then the whole was folded at this crimp and tightened with a pair of Vise Grips with specially ground jaws. We put together a LOT of these crimps due to the fact that the stearing cables were small and the connections permanent. If you had to dissassemble the front axel or repair the stearing the crimps were cut off and cables replaced. The cables were also exposed on the early cars and folks were always running into them or stepping on them wrecking the cables. On my last car the cables were enclosed and I only had to install the cables ONCE. This method only works on small moderately loaded cables but it does work. However, you do have to make your own tools and develop the procedure. Every step had to be perfect in order for the final result to be tight. Use this method at your own risk. The commercial fasteners Dave recommended will hold until the cable fails if properly installed. Those I have described will not. |
| - guru - Friday, 03/03/06 09:11:08 EST |
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A note on powder coating, We have over 15 different colors and textures that we use. It is an expensive process. The powder suppliers will usually want to produce more than 500 lbs at a time.(it's sold by the pound, $7.00 to $15.00 per lb is common). and you will have a high waste factor don’t count on reclaimed powder to be of much value. Even though powder coating will give a very hard surface, It is not without it's problems. Any edges will have a built up of coverage ( as most paints will)and make it susceptible to flaking or if there are any small crevasses the powder will not flow to the very bottom because of attraction , kind of like cheere-o’s in milk and leave a void at teh bottom that can crush in or pop out leaving a exposed area that will rust. We use a clear powder coat and if someone touches the frames before finishing, we will have a nice protected finger or thumb print of rust under the finish. The only easy what to remove powder coating is by burning it off. We use a very large oven. If you go that route look for a factory or autobody repair shop that may have the type of finish you are looking for. And be willing to finish it for you. Here is a list of powder suppliers that may help you locate someone in your area that they supply. TCI - 800-533-9067 GA H.B FULLER 651-236-3700 NC IFS COATINGS 940-665-8892 TX NAPPCOTE 818-882-6333 CA SHERWIN-WILLAIMS 866-394-3158 |
| daveb - Friday, 03/03/06 11:18:38 EST |
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To Dave Boyer & Ries Thanks for the information on the lathes. I was not able to get one at the sale but thought you might be interested in what I found out. The Mysoic Kirloskar’s were definitely made in India. Big plate on side said so. The Monarch Model: EE, Date Mng: May 1978 was very nice. Had been in classroom setting for all its life and showed little if any wear. Unfortunately there was a dealer there that got all of them. Obviously he thought they were a good deal, as he was not hesitating to raise the bid, and showed not signs of reaching his limit. The Kirloskar’s went from 900 too 1200 with a 15% buyer premium. They were in the same room as the Monarch. The Monarch went for 5500 with the same buyer’s premium. I had an estimate of 600 to 800 to get one moved, so was to rich for my blood. Thanks again |
| David - Friday, 03/03/06 11:48:30 EST |
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Excuse me, but I was interested in making a sword. I know, it sounds naive, but the interest is still there. I was wondering what tools I would need, and their prices. That, and what materials I would need (what grade steel, etc). Is there a way to make a sword without too much machenery (like as a hobby)? |
| Anthony - Friday, 03/03/06 12:00:30 EST |
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Im sorry, that was stupid, and a waste of time on all involved. I just found the Gen X article, and browsed it. I found that making a sword takes years of work, and that just having the machines wouldn't be enough. I see now that sword making is an art, not a simple hobby. Again, I appologize. |
| - Anthony - Friday, 03/03/06 12:13:48 EST |
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A traditional method to get a heavily rusted and pitted surface was to bury in a manure pile for a while---doesn't work out here as it's too dry you need some chemically active moisture in the pile to do it's dirty work. Note if you heavily rust and pit a surface you can show that a piece is made from modern steel as the old wrought iron has a different "look" when heavily rusted---one of the methods of identifying WI scrap! Thomas |
| Thomas P - Friday, 03/03/06 12:33:54 EST |
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Anthony, it can be done as a hobby but if you want the REAL thing yes it takes years of STUDY. Machinery is a matter of profitability vs. perserverance. The professional must use machinery to profitable. The hobbiest that is VERY stubborn can produce fantastic work with minimal tools. Castles have been built single handed by a man with a shovel and a wheelbarrow. . . Are you that driven? Power tools make many hobies much more enjoyable and allow us to have a LIFE. Drive, stubornness and the will to perserve are some of the most important attributes of the hand craftsman. To make a polished surface with nothing but files, a knife and some worn sand paper takes time, patience and that stuborness. To learn to do these things the same way takes the same drive. A large part of my article is to determine if the reader has that drive. Some folks have it, others do not. After reading that article many go full tilt into doing what would look like the impossible to others. That is the drive necessary to do anything well by hand. |
| - guru - Friday, 03/03/06 12:41:05 EST |
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Machine Prices: David, thanks for the report. This is typical of well advertised used equipment auctions. The problem often is that with a well equiped machine a dealer knows he can get his money out of the machine and sell all the extras seperately. On ebay many classic small machines sell as parts because you can easily get ten or twenty times more for the parts than for the whole machine. Usualy the best deals are from individuals or sales where the machine is out of place and no dealers with deep pockets are there to run up the price. If you keep looking, reading the ads, asking around they show up. |
| - guru - Friday, 03/03/06 12:46:50 EST |
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ANTHONY Most of us probably found your mature response to the Gen-X info quite refreshing. Don't run off too fast. Browse around this site and other sites and take a look what hobby/amateur/part-time/semi-pro smiths have been doing. (You will find some mity-fine knives, for example). You might find blacksmithing to be interesting and challenging. Besides, if you dabble, you will have taken the first steps to making a sword. Sounds like a win-win!! |
| - Tom H - Friday, 03/03/06 14:10:02 EST |
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Does anyone know where i can get the wires to make my own thermocouple? The pre made ones are too expensive |
| stroker - Friday, 03/03/06 14:29:59 EST |
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Anthony: I'm not pretending to be a proffesional blacksmith or bladesmith because I only have abour 5 or 6 months experience, but I will have to disagree with some of the comments posted. I have made knives and swords within half of a week with the hand forging method as oppsed to using heavy machinary. If you would be interested in a business, it would not be impossible to hand forge the swords the old way and still have a business. I'm very sorry if others contrast this, but I have seen it done, and know it can be. My only advice (again, not pretending to be a proffesional) would be to build up stock before trying to sell, as this would give enough time to make more inventory without being sold out and making people have to wait. Again, I'm sorry to anyone who would contrast this, but I have seen it done and I'm trying tp put back as much as I can for everything I have gotten from it. |
| - Rob - Friday, 03/03/06 14:32:11 EST |
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Stroker, To make your own Type K thermocouple, you just need some Chromel and some Alumel wire and a good way to weld them. Years ago, I use dot weld them using a car battery and mercury. Not sure I'd advise that, today. For Type J and other thermocouples, you'll need to check the appropriate wire types. As for a source, check with Omega.com (the best, in my opinion) or Thermosensors.com or someone similar. You may have to buy more than you want, though. |
| vicopper - Friday, 03/03/06 14:49:29 EST |
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A swor can be made in fifteen minutes with an angle grinder, a piece of steel, a hunk of wood and some string. will it be a good sword? Absolutely not! A decent sword? No way. Will it be something you can hit a tree with and call a sword? Sure. But that is NOT a real sword. And you would have to be very, very brave to sell a sword that was less than properly made, due to liability concerns. Broken pieces flying off a sword can kill or maim just as easily as an intended strike. For a bit of background on sword making and what it takes to craft real, sho-nuff first-class swords, check out Dr. Jim Hrisoulas' work at www.atar.com. There aren't many that can honestly claim to be as good as Dr. Jim. |
| vicopper - Friday, 03/03/06 14:57:50 EST |
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Jock. Not MY method. I merely cited information from an article. Lots of ways to skin a cat, some better than others. For interior work I am thinking, but I could be wrong, that the galvanizing and heavy primer coats could obscure the detail and add a lot of time to the process. Since I'm not interested in doing high end work for custom homes it's all academic to me. |
| Ellen - Friday, 03/03/06 15:04:06 EST |
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Non-Magnetic A-2 Point: So, if you start with a non-magnetic stainless steel and heat it to 1425 degrees F. does it pull the anvil over to the forge? Anthony and Ambition: Swords? I have them, I've used them in reenactment, I've rehilted and repaird them; but really I prefer an axe! Axes are, on the whole, a lot more useful in daily life (in the early medieval period and just this past weekend on the farm) than a sword. Plus, there's good information on axemanking in the iForge section, available throgh the pull-down munue to the upper right. I compare starting out blacksmithing or bladesmithing by making swords to starting out painting with the Sistine Chapel ceiling. It can be done as a fresco, or you can just use a lot of white paint and rollers. Either way, the ceiling gets painted, but one does not compare well to the other. ;-) "A sword for show, but an axe for dough." (Hagar the Horrible's Handbook for Vikings by Dik Browne) Sunny and warmer on the banks of the Potomac; I MIGHT finish the final forging on one of the sleighs this weekend! Visit your National Parks: www.nps.gov Go viking: www.longshipco.org |
| Bruce Blackistone (Atli) - Friday, 03/03/06 15:55:06 EST |
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I have a question regarding bladesmithing. I was reading a book and there was a description of a way packing a single edged knife. I understood that you hammered it edge down on the horn, but past that the book was omewhat vague as to how you hammered it back to its original state. If anyone could clear this up I would be grateful |
| Booger man - Friday, 03/03/06 16:32:34 EST |
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Thermocouple Wire; Stoker, The folks at Omega and Chromolox both sell the wire (as well as everything else related to temperature meausrement). Their catalogs are also some of the best technical literature around. I have bought many thermocouple junctions and the prices seemed very reasonable. I have also made them. To make them you have to weld the special alloy wire using TIG. On the old thermocouple systems the entire length of wire from the junction to the meter was the chromel/alumel or iron/constantan wires. When the joint failed (burned or corroded off) you trimed the wire and welded them back together. Today they use short thermocouple wire leads, join them to specially balanced wire using special alloy connectors. It saves on wire expense if you are going a long distance but it is an expensive proposition in any case. I prefer the old system but have also used the new on equipment I have built. |
| - guru - Friday, 03/03/06 16:41:06 EST |
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I tried to remove the zinc from a piece of conduit by suspending it in a vinegar solution in a metal container and hooking a battery charger to the conduit and the container. Hooked it up backwards from the way you'd remove rust -- I think negative went to the conduit, but don't quote me on that. Did okay at removing the zinc, but very well at pitting the conduit. The technique may be worth trying if you *want* the pitting. On cable ends, if you go with TIG, through drill the slug and weld at the end opposite where the cable enters. This should keep the HAZ in pure tension. (Not sure how else you could do it anyway.) |
| Mike B - Friday, 03/03/06 17:49:53 EST |
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Bman I think what you are talking about is the fact that if you pound out the bevel on a single edged knife it curves the blade toward the back resulting in a "banana knife". One way to avoid this is to take the blade blank before pounding in the bevel and curve it towards the blade edge. Then when you pound out the bevel it *straightens* the knife. The trick is to judge how much reverse curve to put in the blade to which we say *experience* and knowing that you can straighten a blade merely by putting it edge up on the anvil and gently tapping it back down so doing the pre-curve thing is not necessary and if done you don't have to get it perfect as there are other ways to deal with the problem. Now the term edge packing to supposidly refine the grain size of the cutting edge was a usefull technique with early steels with only iron and carbon in them. Nowdays modern metallurgy has worked on alloys to reduce grain growth and then to refine it during heat treat. Many knifemaking books still refer to this centuries old practice not realizing it just doesn't hold true using modern steels. It does NOT increase the density of the steel---you can't squish atoms tighter than they want to go with a hammer and doing it with a linear accelerator has negative consequence for blade usaibility. Thomas |
| Thomas P - Friday, 03/03/06 18:55:05 EST |
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I posted a question a couple of weeks ago about twisting a piece of 1 1/4 inch square stock. It was a great success. It also twisted easier than I thought it would. I used two rosebud torches and fabbed up a four handed wrench.I worked well. I would like to get it chromed when I am done shaping it. How much should I clean it up before I send it to chrome or should I let it to the professionals? Any input would be a great help thanks a lot. |
| - Kevin K - Friday, 03/03/06 20:19:45 EST |
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If you want to rust steel to the point of having pits use liquid nitrogen (the fertilizer not the liquid gas) just rub it on the metal and let it set outside a few days. I am not sure if a recoat would be necessary. I have seen it rust wrenches that were used repairing equipment containing it and left outside in the dew over night. |
| Daniel - Friday, 03/03/06 20:22:14 EST |
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I posrted a question a couple of weeks ago about reverse twisting a piece of 1 1/4 inch square stock. Thanks to your help it was very successful. I used two rosebud torches and a four handed turning wrench I fabbed up. My plan is to make an engine guard for a motorcycle so I would like to get it chromed when I am done shaping it. My Question this time is should I atempt to clean it up or just let it to the professionals at the chrome shop? Any help tin this matter would be a great help. |
| Kevin K - Friday, 03/03/06 20:28:33 EST |
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I have just seen a spare tire power hammer. I have recently completed a tredle hammer and would like to know ifanyone has dwgs or plans available. |
| Rick - Friday, 03/03/06 21:51:45 EST |
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Kevin K, Plating is pretty much like painting, in that the final finish you get will be a shinier version of what you started with. So if you leave it full of dings, dents, scrapess and scratches, you'll have nice shiny dings, dents, scrapes and scratches. Unless, of course, the plater does a fair amounto f finish sanding and polishing for you. Some will, some won't, but any who will do it will charge you for it. The best thing to do is talk to the plater and find out how much finish polishing they will do for how much money, then react accordingly. |
| vicopper - Friday, 03/03/06 22:39:34 EST |
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Thomas P I was just reading out of one of jim hrisoulas's books and it said something about packing the edges by doing this. I jst figured he would know since he has a PhD in metallurgy |
| booger man - Friday, 03/03/06 22:49:19 EST |
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Bman I suggest you read the thread on that over at the swordforum.com bladesmith's cafe (or the metallurgical forum). The gist of it is that 20 years ago Jove nodded. If all PhD's in metallurgy all agreed on everything my bookshelf would be a lot shorter and a heck of a lot less expensive. I still think that the Compleat Bladesmith is the best book on forging blades to start with and a true treasure for folks interested in doing swords---a sword is not just an upscaled knife anymore than a jet fighter is an upscaled ultralight. Thomas |
| Thomas Powers - Friday, 03/03/06 23:19:47 EST |
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For what it's worth, Dr. Hrisoulas has his Ph.D in metallography rather than metallurgy. I have no real idea what the difference is, though. |
| vicopper - Saturday, 03/04/06 00:00:23 EST |
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Kevin K. The polishing is tedious work and will be expensive no matter who does it. If it turns out that You are going to do it Yourself, try all the methods You plan to use on scrap first. It is really easy to lose the edges [round them over more than You want]. You might want to experiment with scrap to understand how much time it will take You so You can better evaluate someone else's quote. |
| - Dave Boyer - Saturday, 03/04/06 00:13:51 EST |
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metallography vs. metallurgy Metallography is a specialty within metallurgy where the structures of steel are studied under high powered microscopes, often electron microscopes. I believe Dr.J's Phd is based on his thesis and is not a standard (listed) doctorate. |
| - guru - Saturday, 03/04/06 00:26:40 EST |
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Packing only works if the steel is not significantly heat treated afterward. In packing the grian of the steel is refined to smaller crystals. In heat treating the grain grows, then shrinks at the upper transformation temperature and can be kept in that condition via properly hardening. Much grain growth can be "cured" by proper heat treating. Where packing really works is in the rolling of plate and bar where it starts cooling in the rolls and is reduced further as it cools. Plate and bar with very fine grain struucture can be created in this manner (see diagrams in the Steel Rolling Mill plans review). However, mechanical grain reduction is largely undone by heating and forging. Especially if the steel is soaked too long in the forge. That is why many knife makers prefer stock removal. They believe that they preserve the as-rolled condition. However, heat treating undoes much of what the rolling did. But I do believe there is some advantage or rolled and forged items would have no advantage over castings and they DO. There are studies on both sides of the fence (foundries and forges) each claiming the superior product. Most experts will tell you that the more you know about steel the less you really KNOW. |
| - guru - Saturday, 03/04/06 00:31:55 EST |
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Polishing - Clearing Up: Chrome plate is brighter and a little smoother than the base surface. However if you want a brilliant polish you start with a perfect surface. Plating does not cure surface defects. The original surface may not be polished but it will want to be a perfectly flawless surface finished with 320 and 600 grit Wet-or-Dry. Use it wet. . . After triple plating (copper, nickle, chrome) the chrome is buffed to a bright finish. |
| - guru - Saturday, 03/04/06 00:36:13 EST |
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Howdy all, I have something that I could use some help on. I am trying to make my first hammer out of an old car axle. Now, I have a slitting chisel made, and a drift made to the shape of the handle that I am using, which is more of a rectangularish oval. Now what I am having trouble with is finding the right lenght to make the slit. I have looked at the iForge demo Punches II and checked out the formulas given for round and square holes. After playing around with it tonight, I found that these didn't quite work for what I am doing. However, I did get reasonably close to a length that I think will work. I was wondering, though, if there is a formula out there that could help me to determine the proper length so that when I go to put in the eye I won't over or under slit. And yes, I am drilling holes at each end of the slit before I actually do the slitting, which is something else I wanted to ask about. Do the holes need to be a certain diameter so that they will form the proper shape, or will any diameter do? Like I said, I am trying for my first hammer on my own here. I have made a couple before, but that was with the help of a blacksmith I was visiting at the time. Thus any help you guys and gals can throw my way would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!! Ian Wille |
| Ian Blueboy Wille - Saturday, 03/04/06 01:55:03 EST |
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Advantage of forging: This topic came up at the plant with regards to rivet yokes We made to assemble the product. The problem was fatigue. Ours were sawn and machined from S5 forged billets. The question was: Would they have any better fatigue life if forged to net shape? Our lab people who had a lot of fatigue experience with our products felt that the forged billet would make esentially as good a part, only slightly if any less durable than if forged to net shape. However it wes felt that the elongagated grain from rolled bar stock would not be desirable as at some point it would be going across the the "c" shaped part [sawed out of bar not bent to near net shape]. If the yoke was to be cast, it would need to be made from an alloy that has good grain structure in the as cast state [after what ever heat treat it would get]. In some aplications cast 17-4 PH stainless workes, but not in the most heavily stressed designs. In general, if a part was cast from the same material as a forged part, it would not be as strong. There are better and more expensive alloys that give as good a results when cast as a cheaper commonly used alloy do when forged. For a given set of mechanical properties, which method makes the part at the lowest cost depends on the design of the part and which manufacturing method suits it and the quantity of parts to be made. An example is Hofi's hammers. When cast they are of 8650, but the forged ones are not. By the way, in My opinion, We could have greatly extended the fatigue life of the yokes by increasing the hardness to 45RC. The specs called for 37RC, but the heat treat operator took it upon himself to draw them back to 33RC when He realised they were breaking a lot of them. Turns out the extreme breakage He mistook as the yokes being brittle was caused by arcing between the yoke and the product due to a failed grounding strap. Arc welding was done on the same fixture. The arc pits caused localized hardening of the part and a stress riser at the same place. His mis guided attempt at a cure only lowered the tensil and yeild strength of the part, resulting in reduced fatigue life. The heat treat operator did not know how to recognise brittle failure from fatigue failure. The company [Dana] filed chapter 11 today, so who gives a rip now? |
| Dave Boyer - Saturday, 03/04/06 03:35:48 EST |
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Guru, I am in the Army and currently deployed to Iraq. I do some smithing and knifemaking on the side of my Army career. I came upon some 1095 steel out here, but its not enough to make a full tang blade, so I want to weld a piece of low carbon on the end with threads to secure the handle. I have no silver solder, but i have access to a TIG welder. Once I weld it together, do I have to normalize it before continuing or will heat treating it in this stage be alright. Also, would a regular mild steel rod work with this or should the filler material be 1095 as well. I appriciate the help. SGT K. |
| army man in iraq - Saturday, 03/04/06 06:53:54 EST |
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In The Army Now: Well, first off, thank you for your service! Salute! As long as you set down the back of your blade behind the ricasso, and then tig on your threaded tang, you will be allright. Then tang will recieve less stress than anywhere else on the blade, and low carbon will not be as hard anyway. As far as the joint being normalized, when you harden your blade, the residual heat will should normalize any heat affected zone at your weld. |
| Bob H - Saturday, 03/04/06 07:52:07 EST |
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To Pack, Or Not To Pack, That Is The Question: I too noticed that in Dr. Jim's fine book. But, alas, like most things, I only glean a little bit off the surface, just enough to get by, and am not bothered by missing the full understanding. So I don't pack. Although, I did just pack a blade, as an exception to the above. But then again, it was a copper blade, and I work hardened the edge very carefully as my last bit of hammering. |
| Bob H - Saturday, 03/04/06 07:57:27 EST |
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Rick: Clay Spencer (934 Partridge Lane, Murphy, NC 28906) may not have developed the treadle hammer, but he dang sure perfected the use of it. He may not have developed the spare tire hammer, but he is working on improvements and holds seveal workshops a year to where each participant comes home with one. Contact him for the workshop schedule. Likely cheaper (since materials are purchased in bulk) than you would built it on your own. Workshop cost is about $1,300 I believe. |
| - Ken Scharabok - Saturday, 03/04/06 08:02:43 EST |
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Tire Hammer: One of our regulars here, Ray Clontz, AKA ptpiddler, invented the tire hammer. We have one built by Steve Barringer of the Power Hammer School on our power hammer page catalog of user built and junk yard hammers and I have that hammer in my shop. Many others have built these hammers and Clay has taken on the task of popularizing them and building kits. So far the hammers I have seen that were built under Clay's direction had some serious design errors. The open space between the ram and the die was far too much. The hammers would work but had to operate at much too fast a speed to make die contact. This means the machine would hit hard but not as hard as it should AND it was not as controlable as it needed to be. On a non-adjustable hammer this means making a set of dies spacer blocks to raise the lower die. These are NOT an option they are an absolute neccessity if the hammer is to be built with tooling space. Although many people build hammers using the Dupont toggle linkage (it was invented by Phillipe Denery DuPont) most do not understand its dynamics which are very complicated. The only information on this subject that is correct is the Little Giant tune up video by the late Dave Manzer that we sell. Dave spent a greatr deal of time analysing the motion of the Dupont linkage and made science out of the confusion. The Kern Little Giant book is full of errors on this subject (just plain WRONG) as are most other writings on the subject. If you want to build one of these machines go look closely at others as well as Little Giants in a good state of tune. The Dave Manzer video is also great deal of help. |
| - guru - Saturday, 03/04/06 09:11:55 EST |
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Thanks Ken; BAM recently had a workshop for the spare tire p.h. it ran about$1,000 I'm a bit light on funds ( trying to build a shop and go into iron artwork ) I have found a 1.5hp motor and spare tire for free and have access to a scrapyard for most of the structure.I'll try to contact Clay for plans .Again thanks |
| Rick - Saturday, 03/04/06 09:25:55 EST |
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Packed steel and such: When I was little, I remember my father had a very small knife, it was part of his keychain it was so small. He was so proud of the knife becuase when he bought it, he was told it was made of "dentritic steel". He told me that dentritic steel had the crystals packed together at the edge in a linear fashion. It was the understanding that the steel was SO good that the price of it was so high that the knife had to be made so small. The blade edge is only about 1/2" to 3/4". So, was this a whole bunch of hooey a salesman used to make the sale? Or is there more to this? If it's real, where can I get some? |
| - Nippulini - Saturday, 03/04/06 10:07:06 EST |
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Forged vs cast. In the high pressure valve and fitting industry, forged is seen as the one true path by most. We designed the forge sequence to cause the grain lines to intergrally reinforce the product. This was one of the reasons to forge solid and machine out all the internals. Casting would have much less expensive. The low pressure valve and fitting trade uses cast almost exclusivelly, but in services like city water lines the risks are small, and the service easy. In most valves, the as forged condition is used. This produces a grain size of about 5, in C-1023, (my memory) if the forge practice is good. In many cases normalized is called out, and some of the less reputable off shore forgers would do "tote normalize". This was to use an insulated tote to catch the forgings and the thought was that they would normalize from the residual heat. Under the scope, we found maybe one grain size improvement, whereas a true normalize gave 2 to 3 grain size improvement. We had a great display of forged parts, cross sections, polished and etched that showed the grain flow in many of our parts. As I ran the R & D lab, I tested both our and competitor valves and fittings. One of the many tests was a burst test using hydrostatic pressure. ALL of the forged fittings, from any maker, would swell like a ballon prior to bursting. The burst was usually a crack that allowed the pressure to drop. The cast fittings usually did not swell, burst at a lower pressure, and often failed by losing a significant chunk of the wall. This was all for steam rated fittings, all rated the same. The valves were an interesting thing to try to pressure fail. I was never able to fail a forging, I was only able to fail the gaskets, as the bolts at the bonnet would stretch and allow the gasket to wash out. As these valves were compliant to standards such as ANSI and ASME and API, the gasket joints were all within a standard design, and they ALL failed at about 17,000 to 19,000 psi cold. Did not seem to matter the pressure class! I will take forged over cast any day. |
| ptree - Saturday, 03/04/06 10:29:50 EST |
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Spare tire hammers I converted my belt driven JYH hammer, seen on the power hammer page to tire clutch. I find it a great improvement. I used the spindle hub assemble off a mini van rear axle, as this provides a double tapered bearing arrangement, with seal bearings and a bolt flange to attach the spindle to the hammer frame. I will be scrapping out a couple of vehicles in the next week or so. This will yeild a number of bearing hub assemblies and tires. I plan on attending the CSI hammer-in, and could bring these for a nominal sell price if someone would like one of these. I also can bring the forge lube I have been sampling people with. I plan to bring one container for the auction. If people will advise I will plan for the right amounts. |
| ptree - Saturday, 03/04/06 10:35:37 EST |
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Metallurgy: Daves story is typical of many metalurgy problems. There is often something going on that is not fully understood and the resulting explanation ends up being incorrect. It is a complicated field and MUCH that was inaccurate was written years ago and is still repeated today. The forge/swage or not to forge bolt heads and other shoulders has been studied closely and it was found that forged shoulders that are relatively sharp OR or eound then machined are weaker than shoulders that are machined from solid. When a sharp shoulder (small bolt or tennon radius) is forged the grain is pinched creating a weak point. When a large radius shoulder is machined the grain is cut and is either weaker OR shows no improvement over machined from solid. A forged shoulder with a large radius CAN be stronger than machined but is impractical in many applications. Approved rigging eye-bolts have this kind of shoulder and require a VERY large chamfer (two diameters) to thread in flush. This knowledge is the result of some very intense research. The result is that the highest strength super critical bolts are machined from soild, have eliptical shoulder fillets and shanks reduced to the thread root diameter. On grain flow in forgings I have seen some very odd diagrams that made no sense. When drop forgings are made in closed dies the flow is either in or out of the die and not necessarily along the axis of the part. In order for crank shafts to have proper grain direction they are (or were) made from rolled or forged bar that is then bent to fit the dies that then form the shape shape off axis. Then they would be twisted to offset the throws. . . To me the greatest benifit of rolling and forging over casting is the reduced defects in the metal. If a piece is cast and has a sand inclusion in it you do not know unless the part is X-rayed which is expensive and rarely done. When a part is forged if there is an inclusion cold shut or shear it often becomes obvious in the forging or fails in forging. Thus a forging is "proved" where a casting is not. Also as Dave noted there are alloys for forging and alloys for casting and the two are usualy different to get the best resu |