WELCOME to the anvilfire Guru's Den - V. 3.3

THIS is a forum for questions and answers about blacksmithing and general metalworking. Ask the Guru any reasonable question and he or one of his helpers will answer your question, find someone that can, OR research the question for you. This is an archive of posts from March 8 - 15, 2007 on the Guru's Den

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If the guru's have time, I've been trying to find a good stainless alloy for springs. My shop foreman said 316, but he's an out of practice tinbasher. Anyone have some suggestions they'd be willing to share?    - SunDog - Wednesday, 03/07/07 23:51:42 EST Micro Forge is listed on the Gas Forges page on our FAQs page.    - guru - Thursday, 03/08/07 00:21:33 EST Stainless Springs: Non heat treated stainless spring wire is made of a variety of alloys including 304 and 316. The springiness is slightly more than steel without heat treatment and makes fine low performance springs.    - guru - Thursday, 03/08/07 00:23:56 EST Ian, good start.    - guru - Thursday, 03/08/07 00:25:18 EST Seems like a one-gallon empty (and clean) latex paint can would also work well for the micro-forge. The lid can then be used to seal it up.    Ken Scharabok (Poor Boy) - Thursday, 03/08/07 02:01:07 EST Hello, I have a Forge made by Champion blower and Forge Company attached to a bowl about 2.5 ft in dia on legs about 3 ft high for sale. What would such an item bring for a price? Any info that can be given would be appreciated. Thank You    Vincent.V - Thursday, 03/08/07 06:00:36 EST Vincent.V: Can't help you on value but it sounds like what you have is a rivet forge. It was designed to heat up rivets used in construction, such as building and shipyards. Makes a nice arts & crafts show forge, but really not much suited for general purpose blacksmithing due to shallowness of pan.    Ken Scharabok (Poor Boy) - Thursday, 03/08/07 07:19:40 EST Value of Forge: Vincent, while the forge may be small the blowers are in demand in any size. However, they are often worn out due to lack of lubrication and or rust. Since there are no parts available they require someone with a machine shop to rebuild. So, forges with good blowers may be worth a couple hundred dollars or more but rusted out forges with growling stiff to operate gears may only be worth $50 to $75. Sheet metal pans are worth less than cast iron pans, forges with fire pots (a heavy cast iron depressed center) are worth much more than flat bottom forges. A test of a good blower that is well lubricated (the leak constantly so they are almost always without oil) is to turn the crank a few times then let go. Then see how many turns the crank makes. A good smooth blower will turn over 4 or 5 times and gently come to a stop. A worn rough blower will turn only once or twice and stop quickly. A good blower makes almost no noise and you should be able to hear the rush of the air over the gear box while a bad blower growls noisily and you can feel vibration in the crank handle. If you can feel bad gears in the crank handle then it will have a very short future and may not even be rebuildable. On the other hand if you hold out long enough there is always some fool that will part with their money much too easily. Location also makes a difference. In Pennsylvania and Ohio (assuming you are in the U.S.) there are so many of these things that folks can be picky about what they purchase. In California and some of the the low population states good old blacksmithing equipment is rare and people pay more. In Hawaii it would be solid gold. On the other hand if you hold out long enough there is always some fool that will part with their money much too easily. This is especially true in this market (blacksmithing tools) where folks rarely know what they are buying or any of the above.    - guru - Thursday, 03/08/07 08:52:18 EST More on the Micro Forge: Gotta love the MAPP, but go get a Bernz-O-Matic TS-8000 torch, otherwise you're going to lose heat efficiency with MAPP on a standard torch. Another nice thing about the TS-8000 is the piezo electric start, don't have to worry about arm hair loss (grin). My torch mounts are angled at 45 degrees up, so to prevent the torch head becoming a chimney for hot gasses after use. Personally I feel like any food can is too thin and small for most forging so I use spent propane bottles. I punch, then drill two holes under water and let the bottle clear out for a day or so. Then cut to shape and fill with Kaowool and ITC as noted. I use MAPP for the front main burner and a smaller propane torch for a reserve rear burner. When I don't need a full blast, I turn down (or off) the MAPP while the propane head keeps the forge on. Saves lots of money that way and gives me a welding heat at full blast (thanks to Jock for that recommendation). A 4" piece of 1-1/4 angle iron makes the porch with 1/4" rod welded upright to hold the door, which is made of 1/8" sheet cut to size. A length of rod is welded to the top of the door so I can slide it up and down as needed. Lately, I've been keeping my MAPP bottle in a pan of water. When the bottle starts to freeze up, I cup the water over it to keep the pressure up. Here's the pic again: http://greatnippulini.com/NewForge1.JPG    - Nippulini - Thursday, 03/08/07 09:34:03 EST By the way, Vicopper.... a 10 pound can of beans? That's just plain scary!!    - Nippulini - Thursday, 03/08/07 10:00:07 EST The original "Bean-O-Matic Propane Forge" Called for a "large can of beans" but not a commercial kitchen size. Checking our pantry that is a 28oz. can is 3-3/8" by about 6", but there are large sizes that area about 4" by 8". That was the size in the now lost drawing of the "Bean O Matic" which was a true Micro Forge. It used one layer of Kaowool and a Bernz of Matic Propane torch. It was a cheap and dirty quicky.    - guru - Thursday, 03/08/07 12:12:04 EST About my Champion forge again, once you get it up to speed and let go of the handle it will propably turn another 6 or 7 times easily. And the Pan or bowl is made of solid cast iron in the afore mentioned dimensions. Please more info I live in Canada and I have had a few guys from the states wanting this thing. It also comes with a bag of pebbled coal. Please more info anyone.    Vincent.V - Thursday, 03/08/07 12:21:04 EST Firepots I'm looking to build a better coal forge than the round rivet forge I have now. Most of the materials will be scrounged, but I want a decent firepot with clinker breaker. I'm leaning towards the Centaur Vulcan firepot with ashdump. Are there others I should consider? This and the chimney pipe should be my main expense. The table will probably be 2x4' 1/8" plate that I already have. The chimney will probably be 8" and tall, to be installed in my shop. I havent been nearly as happy with the various flat-bottomed forges I've used, even with some firebricks to add depth over the grate. Is the square design the best for soft coal and a wide range of projects? Would the round or another supplier be better? Thanks    - Jacob - Thursday, 03/08/07 13:19:16 EST Jacob, The rectangular pots are a better fit to a rectangular forge. You might want to check Kayne and son (Blacksmiths Depot) and Blacksmith Supply to see what they have. If you are looking for a forge for the long haul you want the the thickest and heaviest pot you can get. I would also look for 10" pipe as a minimum on a forge. 8" is marginal and will not carry all the smoke from a fresh fire or a large one.    - guru - Thursday, 03/08/07 13:54:18 EST Jacob: Request a brochure for the SOF&A/Zeller firepots from Bob Cruikshank, 1495 W. Possum Road, Springfield, OH 45506 (937-323-1300). They are about 5/8" thick. I used one for a couple of years and wanted to upgrade to the slightly larger size. I washed the old one, spray painted it and sold it for more than I paid.    Ken Scharabok (Poor Boy) - Thursday, 03/08/07 14:04:24 EST Jacob: You didn't mention MAKING your own firepot, but this is definitely an option (I did it and it works and as long as you don't count the cost of man hours it is cheaper). If you have access to a decent torch setup, a buzzbox, and a source of scrapped 3/4 or 1 inch plate and are interested let me know and I can give you some pointers on things to NOT do and some things that I found worked pretty well. -Aaron @ the SCF    thesandycreekforge - Thursday, 03/08/07 14:50:12 EST Metal bandsaws? I suspect I have about worn out my Northern Tools 64 1/2" x 1/2" size blade bandsaw. Looking up upgrade as it goes from 1/3 HP to 1 HP for just a bit over twice the price. Question though. The 1 HP one comes with an oiler. Is it necessary to use it on small stock, such as less than 1"? I cut a lot of small pieces and don't particularly want to have to deoil them before use.    Ken Scharabok (Poor Boy) - Thursday, 03/08/07 18:23:04 EST Ken, are you talking about coolent? I had coolent on my Jet horizontal and used it for a short time-found out it was just a PITA to use and didn.t really lengthen the blade life- Just use a good quality bimetal blade- If you will notice, the ELLIS brand saw-probably one of the best around , does not use coolent    - ptpiddler - Thursday, 03/08/07 18:39:32 EST Ken, I have run my jets with bi-metal blades for years without coolant. At the valve shop, where I was often cutting exotic alloys, and very thick sections for these saws, I did use coolant. The big difference is in production cutting. There you can match the blade, speed and download and get optium results only with the right coolant. This however is not really required for small sections of mild steel, if you don't crowd the blade, and don't mind a little slower cut and a little less blade life.    Ptree - Thursday, 03/08/07 19:00:56 EST Ken, If you want to try a little coolant to see if it makes a difference, I can see if the friendly folks at J & M have a sample.    Ptree - Thursday, 03/08/07 19:02:40 EST Small Band Saws: I get cleaner cuts and a lot longer blade life using some kind of lubricant on the blades (good bi-metal variable pitch blades). However, I run top speed on alloy, tool and stainless steels. The lubricant/coolant I use most often has been WD-40. I squirt some on the blade and the cut as it starts and as needed on deep cuts. An 8oz. can lasts weeks of daily cutting. The bigger saws use bigger blades and have much better blade life. However, I prefer to run lubricant on them as well. The advantage of a pumped coolant system is that it washes the chips out of the kerf AND off the blade. This not only gives longer blade life it also helps keep chips off the wheels and guides. The down side is that almost all coolant systems drip or coolant runs down the work and almost always makes a mess. Some machines need to be built over a drain pit. . . I have the ORIGINAL 4x6" min-band saw that all the cloners copied. It was made by Ridge Tools in the late 60's and early 1970's. It sold for $1000 THEN and I paid $600 for it USED. It is a great little saw and still runs good. Everything that everyone that made cheaper models of it did made them an almost worthless machine. Sears made one that was ALMOST identical except they exchanged the cast iron table and the feed arm with heavy pressed steel. They were (are) impossible to keep adjusted and cutting. At one point in the 1980's the importers were selling junker copies for $249! The point is that a decent SMALL saw cost $1000 in the 1970's. Apply THAT to your thoughts about pricing new saws. . .    - guru - Thursday, 03/08/07 20:23:36 EST Agreed, but I am not running a production shop either. The $350 NT one lasted for about two years of sometimes several hours a day of light cutting. However, it is making squeeking noices and breaking blades on a regular basis. Suspect flexing fatigue or worn down guides. Upgrading would take me from a 65 1/2" x 1/2" blade to a 93" x 3/4" one, and NT prices for them aren't much different. HF is junk, but I have gotten good service out of NT items and their customer support is great.    Ken Scharabok (Poor Boy) - Thursday, 03/08/07 21:02:11 EST Ken, I have used up several of the Jet, etc 4" x 6'. I found that the squeking is usually the roller bearings in the guides. We bought new roller bearings from a industrial mil supply, and they fit perfect. I have also discovered that these little saws have a badly designed gearbox, and that sometimes they fill them with grease. As it is a worm gear drive it needs to be gear oil. i had one to get noisy and we opened it up and found serious wear . I cleaned it out, filled with gear oil with some added moly, and it ran for several more years. We used these in the lab, cutting up valves to see inside for failure etc. These got hard use from interns, and they gave VERY good service for a $249 saw. To make them live, first tune for straightness. Then back off the feed spring to give a down load from weight only. Make sure that stuff does not move in the vise. Do not over tighten the blade. The bands bow from the teeth to the heel and then the band slips around the thrust rioller and chews into the cast iron. Only buy one of these saws if it has adjustable guides. Coolant is grand and is the right way to go in a production shop. To really get performance , one needs one of the water based semi synthetics now out. Expect to clean the gunk from the coolant off everything in the saw regularry. Expect it to go sour in the summer, and freeze in the winter if you don't heat the shop. It is absolutely the right thing to do. I don't use coolant on either of my saws, except I use some parafin when cutting SS.    ptree - Thursday, 03/08/07 22:11:08 EST Bandsaw: In industry I used both wet and dry saws. I am not convinced that a wet saw will save You money if cutting mild steel. Coolant has a cost, and the extra clean up takes time. The last place I worked used a lot of D2, one of the nastiest tool steels to work with. That was cut dry while EVERYTHING else was cut with coolant, GO FIGURE. I have an old [1983] Tawanise 4x6 saw the gearcase has leaked for 20+ years. I put die post oil in it, which is about like STP only brown. I think I would use 600W or STP [if they still make it] This doesn't leak out verry quickly.    Dave Boyer - Thursday, 03/08/07 23:44:42 EST Nippulini, That was a #10 can, NOT a 10# can. #10 is the next size bigger than the standard #303 can that veggies come in. It is about the right size for two layers of Kaowool.    vicopper - Friday, 03/09/07 01:25:04 EST Could someone tell me how to put the "spring" in steel. I need to make a few small compression leaf springs (about 5 inches long, 1/4 thick). I'm trying to fix and old switchblade that has been in my family for years. If someone could tell me the best steel to use and the proper hardening process to make the steel into a good strong spring (compression style) would really be appreseated. Thank you    - Jerry - Friday, 03/09/07 06:25:35 EST Springs: Jerry, First, you need to know it is a physical fact that all steel has the same springyness. However, the difference between soft and hard springs is how far they will travel (deflect) before they bend. The difference between a hard and a soft piece of steel is how far it will bend (or stretch) before breaking. A relatively heavy low performance spring that will not break can be made out of mild or medium carbon steel. A light weight high performance spring is made of medium to high carbon alloy steel. There are a lot of alloys used to make springs and a lot of heartaches making your own springs. There are a number of commonly used spring steels. SAE 5160, SAE 1095 (music wire) and 301 Stainless steel. In small sections the 5160 and 1095 are air hardening. The stainless is used as-is, not heat treated. However, it makes a lower performance spring than the others. Steel is heat treated by annealing or thermal conditioning, hardening and then tempering. Annealing is done by heating the steel to the hardening point then letting it cool very slowly. To cool slowly either a temperature control furnace is used OR insulation. The best insulations to use are wood ashes, quick lime, vermiculite and kaowool. When a part is very small and air hardening is a possibility it is heated on a larger piece and both are buried in the annealing medium. To harden the steel is gently heated to the non-magnetic point, then cool quickly. Large parts and some steels are quenched in water, small parts and most spring steels are quenched in warm oil and very thin parts and special air hardening alloys are cooled with a gentle blast of air. As hardened most medium to high carbon steels are brittle as glass and will break easily. They must be tempered to reduce the hardness and make they tough enough for their intended use. The softer the steel (the more it is tempered) the less likely it is to break. The tricky part is to find the right temper for the part. Immediately after hardening, before the part reaches room temperatuyre the part should be tempered. This is done by gently and evenly heating the part to between 350°F and 650°F for spring steels (higher for 5160). In most cases 590-600°F is considered "spring temper". This is the temperature that bright clean steel turns a deep blue. But alloy steels often need to be tempered at higher temperatures just out of the temper color range (gray and above). Like annealing, one way to get your small part to an even temperature is to use a larger block of steel heated to the correct temperature then set the small part on it and let it soak. Any larger piece of steel can be used and if clean its color can be used to determine the temperature by its "temper color". See our FAQs page, temper color chart. Mistakes can be made at every stage. Over heating the steel at any stage is most common and can create conditions that will ruin the steel or cause cracking later. Parts with sharp corners or quick changes in cross section tend to crack when quenched. Parts insufficiently tempered will break easily. Often finding the proper heat treat for a given steel or part requires several trials where the test often results in broken parts. Welcome to the world of blacksmithing.    - guru - Friday, 03/09/07 08:51:50 EST Cheap, Cheap Saws: Most I have seen were not adjustable and had little 3/4" cam rollers for guide wheels. Occasionally these were plastic. IF you could keep the blade in them they would not cut square OR straight, the cut curving one direction or another. If all you cut was small stock less than an inch you would not notice, but on anything large, even pipe or tubing the curve could be more than 1/4". THIS in turn wrecks the blade. The guide wheels on the original Ridgid saw were about 1-3/8" OD sealed ball bearings. Both guide wheel assemblies were adjustable in all directions. While this is desirable it also lets you get the saw so out of wack that it will not operate. I suspect the cloners, besides being cheap were also avoiding having to have someone that had the skill to setup the saw on assembly. I had not seen any with grease in the gear box. However, I can see why. The Sears clone saw we bought came with oil but most of it was in the bottom of the packing box. Apparently it had been stored or shipped on its side at one point. While the Sears saw we bought has lasted many years it has caused more aggrevation than you can imagine. The simple substitution of the cast base and feed arm made it very difficult to keep running true even though it had the same guide system as the Ridgid. In its 20 year life the Sears has had 4 motors due to repeated binding and stalling. Blade life has been miserable. We bought the same blades to use on it as I put on my Ridgid. Those on the Sears would wear on one side, cut crooked or break, while on mine I could run the blades until the teeth were nubs. . . Just the frustration factor of cheap tools is enough to make it worth while to buy better tools.    - guru - Friday, 03/09/07 09:21:58 EST Okay, I was more stunned to the fact that anyone would be able to USE 10 pounds of beans, let alone the empty can! And if one WERE to eat 10 pounds of beans.... well, I'll just say you won't see me standing next to you in the shop any time soon, lest we want to create the first human powered gas forge.    - Nippulini - Friday, 03/09/07 09:41:24 EST Jerry-- you probably already know this, and I know, I know-- switchblades are for sale in every knife magazine, on the Internet, in every gas station in idaho, flea markets everywhere etc., BUT, facts are facts and: making one, selling one, and merely owning one is a violation of Federal law. Behold: (From http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/casecode/uscodes/15/chapters/29/toc.html ) United States Code TITLE 15 - COMMERCE AND TRADE CHAPTER 29 - MANUFACTURE, TRANSPORTATION, OR DISTRIBUTION OF SWITCHBLADE KNIVES Section 1241. Definitions Section 1242. Introduction, Manufacture For Introduction, Transportation Or Distribution In Interstate Commerce; Penalty Section 1243. Manufacture, Sale, Or Possession Within Specific Jurisdictions; Penalty Section 1244. Exceptions Section 1245. Ballistic Knives Also God forbid you should ever actually use one for what it was designed for-- just having it on you is prima facie evidence of premeditation.    Miles Undercut - Friday, 03/09/07 09:56:00 EST Switchblades: There are exceptions for collectors and dealers but carrying one on you can be a serious problem. There are severe enough penalties that if cops want to frame someone they are used as a "throw away". I was given a very nice Al-Mar knife by a forum member who believed that their spring action made them a life saving device since they could easily be opened one handed. However, I can easily open my Buck 505 one handed, even in a pocket. In fact, I can open it easier than the Al-Mar. I did some research on the Al-Mar and it was short enough to be legal for open carry (not in a pocket) in SOME states. In Virginia where I lived it was legal, but in North Carolina where I often visit, travel and now live most of the time it was illegal for even cops and military who are exempted in most states. SO. . since I always carry a small knife if I was traveling it would be illegal, if I accidentally but it in my pocket where I had been carrying a knife for 45 years. . . it would be illegal. And knowing MY luck since I have never been arrested for anything, THAT would be the time I would be in the wrong place at the wrong time. . . So I made sure it had a happy home with a friend. The switchblade laws have a curious past and probably should be rescinded. They were written at a time when the country thought gangs of anarchists were going to take over the country and there WERE a lot of violent street protests (see movie "Gangs of New York"). Reactionary laws were passed to ease public fears of the time and they are still on the books. So instead of knives, those bent on breaking the law carry legal guns. . . In the end it matters not because as was proven at Kent State, Ruby Ridge and Waco the U.S. government's reaction to massive public unrest would be no different than the Chinese at Tiananmen Square. Tanks would roll. Pull your switchblade or sword on THAT.    - guru - Friday, 03/09/07 11:39:01 EST Thanks to all for advice. I went ahead and ordered the Northern Tool 1HP model. While certainly not a machine shop piece of equipment, it should do for my far more modest means.    Ken Scharabok (Poor Boy) - Friday, 03/09/07 12:48:33 EST Not sure if I would run full speed sawing stainless - that stuff has a nasty habit of work hardening - ive always has more success slow and steady! ( I will check with one of the machine operators for confirmation of this though!) If you run coolant on your saws it is a constant PITA when someone chops a few bits of wood, then the pulp in the coolant is forever blocking it.    - John N - Friday, 03/09/07 13:25:39 EST Firepots I have a 250 amp mig welder that would happily weld up a firepot, but I'm not set up to cut that much heavy plate with any efficiency. I recall reading an old post on here (possibly from Aaron?) saying that the home built firepot wasn't much better or cheaper in the end, and that it required a lot of time investment. Wouldn't mild steel burn through slightly faster than cast iron? The Blacksmiths Depot setup is much heavier and more expensive. I'll have to think on the cost difference. I couldn't find any other details on the SOF&A model online. I'll see if I can get more info. Centaur doesn't list a thickness. Is it also around 5/8"? Blacksmiths Depot's is 1" and almost twice as heavy.    - Jacob - Friday, 03/09/07 13:30:56 EST Ken, You will likely be much happier with the heavier saw. One thing about machines, no matter what size you have, you always have a job that needs one size larger! Yes, Stainless should be cut slow. I'm not sure what the max speed is on my Ridgid but it is designed for cheap carbon steel blades. With the good HSS bi-metal blades it cuts stainless just fine at top speed. Since it is the worst thing I saw I can run the same speed on everything. . . The reason for running dry on some high carbon tool steels is that the chips come off just hot enough to air harden and the coolant carries these little pieces of micro cutter along the blade, onto the wheels, guides and pump. The result is worse than bathing your machine with sand. We had the same problem machining H13. When its chips harden they create terrible grit which in turn can under lathe carriages and in vise screws. . . eats them up. There ARE other costs to machining tool steels other than the slower speeds. Increased and accelerated machine wear is one.    - guru - Friday, 03/09/07 13:55:27 EST I just bought a smoker built from a zinc-coated (galvanized??) trash can. The heating element is about 1250 watts, and rests on lava rocks. The temperature at which the unit cooks is UNDER 300f degrees, usually closer to 225f. Am I going to have a problem with the release of any zinc gas under these conditions? thanks in advance, John M    John Mittelman - Friday, 03/09/07 14:24:28 EST Jacob: Yep that was me. My grand total came somewhere around 70 dollars. What made the prices similar was me figuring shop time at 15 dollars an hour, so with 5 or 6 hours invested, the total was a bit higher. since it really didn't cost me (monetarily anyway) shop time to build it, it was actually not TOO bad of a deal. Now that I've built one (and figured out my mistakes) the next one would probably only take half as long. The thing about the fabricated pot was that all the interior corners and edges were straight and not rounded as in some cast pots. This seems to create a sort of odd situation where there is always coal at the very bottom of the pot in the corners that is not burning very hot at all. It also creates an odd clinker pattern where the clinker kind of conglomerates (sp?) on top of the cool burning coal/coaldust/ash and makes a funky funnel shaped mass. As far as the mild steel burning through, I've been running it since late last summer/early last fall and haven't noticed any burning at all. In fact you can still see little ridge patterns on some of the weld beads. When in use, if i peek up from under the forge, the hottest I've ever seen it get is a cherry red. I think this might have something to do with the aforementioned cool spots in the bottom of the pot. All in all it was an enjoyable project for me, and it was good exercise in cutting and welding heavy plate which is something i don't get to do to often. "Your mileage might vary" -Aaron @ the SCF    thesandycreekforge - Friday, 03/09/07 14:26:13 EST A friend of mine bought an anvil, its 75 pounds and cost him 30 dollars, he makes riveted chainmail, and does a bit of riveting with some armour, so thats what its use is going to be, he sent me the markings, and was wonering if i could find out somethihng about the history, but, i cant, so i thought i would ask you, its a Standard Metal Company and below that it says 75 pounds, he thinks that it is cast steel, but i would assume it is cast iron, and he says the face has been welded but is mostly chipped off, help? Cam    Cameron - Friday, 03/09/07 15:41:03 EST Zinc Smoker: John, no you should not. Zinc melts about 800°F and flares at about 1000°F (~540°C). It is the point where it flares (burns) that is a problem.    - guru - Friday, 03/09/07 15:48:28 EST Propane Forge I was planning on building a propane forge in a metal paint bucket, like the one Larry Zoeller built (see http://www.zoellerforge.com/simplegasforge.html) but I ran into a problem. The problem was I could not find any metal paint buckets. However, my welding teacher agreed to help me fab one. What I need to know now is how big I can make it? In Larry's design he says and he used 4 running feet of duarblanket (1" x 24") to wrap the inside, and says he cut out two circles for the end (is this included in the 4 feet?). I purchased 5 feet, and was having a hard time figuring out what diameter this should make. I would want one for general purpose forging; large enough to forge in, but not too big as to use up a lot of propane. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks -Hollon    - Hollon - Friday, 03/09/07 16:27:55 EST my friends and i fight iwth aluminum weapons, stamped out of aircraft aluminum, and they flex 90 degrees so they wont break as easy, my friend has an axe, and the store we buy these aluminum weapons from is closing, so, heres the quesion, can aluminum be forged? or is it better to just get someone to weld a axe shaped peice of aluminum to a aluminum tube, and fit it onto a stick? thanks, Cam    Cameron - Friday, 03/09/07 16:44:34 EST Hollon, Gas forges and their burners must be matched to each other. Too big a forge and the burner can't keep up. Too small a forge and all the combustion goes on outside. PI * d = circumference. (elementary school math) Use the diameter at about the centerline of the wool. Recalculate for the second layer but remember that the first layer is going to be thicker than 1" from the bunching. The thickness and density also varies greatly from batch to batch (within their tolerances) and can make a significant difference. If you are short a little cut a strip to fill in. "Large enough to forge in" Forge what? Micro forges do great on lots of items from nails to doll house furniture and even small knife parts. The bigger the forge the more gas it will use (regardless of work done). Most folks find they need several gas forges to cover a range of work. Other things more important to forge design is the floor which should be hard refractory brick (half thick) and if you are going to be using flux in the forge then the refractory blanket must ABSOLUTELY be covered with a coating like ITC-100. For health and safety it should be covered anyway. . . Another issue is a hearth to rest work on (more brick) and doors (even more brick or fabrication). One of the slickest ideas I saw on a forge was an "air-curtain". This was on a blown forge and excess air was piped to a narrow nozzle (vacuum cleaner nozzle) in front of the door. The air curtain prevented the dragon's breath from coming straight out of the forge so you could work near the forge and even put your face close to the opening. . . If you don't have a paint bucket a paint store will have them FULL and empty. If you don't want to but one (they ARE very thin) you could measure one on the shelf. . .    - guru - Friday, 03/09/07 16:46:40 EST Yes, aluminium can be forged. To be springy enough to flex that much and spring back (you didn't say) they would have to be made of of a hard grade of "aircraft aluminium" and fairly thin. Forge most non-ferrous metals is tricky as they melt before glowing red. Hot forgable Al is indistinguishable from cold. You also absolutely MUST use tongs. Al conducts heat as well as electricity. When one end is hot, the other end is almost as hot. Same applies to copper and brass.    - guru - Friday, 03/09/07 16:51:56 EST oddly, i'm having the same problem finding one hallon. it's fairly simple math to find out how big your gonna be. 5 gallon bucket is roughly 11 inches across, Circumfrence is diamter x pi so roughly 36 inches. Depth is roughly 14 inches, so with 2 inches of durablanket in the back you've got 12 inches deep. so you need one bit that is 12x36 (aprox) the second bit will be smaller. roughly 27-ish inches long and still 12 inches wide. It's important to remember that the bigger it is the more heat you need to get stuff hot. Larry lists on his site that 350 cubic inches or so per burner for (i think) welding heat. with something the size of a bucket your looking at 460-ish cubic inches. I wouldn't go any bigger then that for a first forge, or with only a single burner. Getting to welding heat would be (as larry says) iffy. I'm planning on building a version of this forge myself, I'll prolly wire it for 2 burners. if your gonna fab the shell, you might thing about adding a door to the back side of it as a pass though, so you can heat the middle of longer stock. I'm hoping this is good info, Its compleatly "book learnin" not functional experiance. I'm a noob at this but have been reading a lot. I'm sure someone can come along and correct any mistakes I've made. Good luck!    Frostfly - Friday, 03/09/07 16:52:27 EST I'm guessing I typed to slow as guru beat me to everything but the bucket dimetions, Looks like I got most of it right though    Frostfly - Friday, 03/09/07 16:55:23 EST Unless the law has changed, there is nothing in it that I saw re: collectors and dealers. There are exceptions, yes-- for cops, and for one-armed service personnel, as I recall. Period. They are a federal law violation, to make, sell, own. Don't like the law? Tough. Run for Congress and make that your mission, changing the law. Whether tbat law gets enforced is another story. However, what's the point? if you think an adversary is going to faint dead away when your shiv goes click, think again. It'll probably be so full of pocket lint that it will jam. You want protection, get a .44 spl. You want a knife for protection, get one designed to do the job-- a Benchmade Emerson SPEC. WAR MODEL CQC7 is a good one, or one of Bob Terzuola's tactical folders, or a Jay "Stick it in a rock and stand on it tough" Fisher. Be prepared to wait and when it's ready you should have perhaps $400 or $500 ready to pay for it. Switchblades by their very nature are weak, good mainly for stabbing people in the back, because they have to be loose in the joint to open. A one-handed folder or an assisted opening folder will open just as fast and is less likely to get a misdemeanor assault charge boosted up to a felony. If you want a REAL knife go on Ebay and get a Cattaraugus WW II USMC combat knife. Indestructible.    Miles Undercut - Friday, 03/09/07 19:09:58 EST Is 600 SS hardenable? I just made some damascus out of some 600 SS roller chain. Thanks    - TMurch - Friday, 03/09/07 19:10:49 EST Cameron: I have not heard of Standard Metal Company and it is not listed in Anvils in America. Thus, you may have rediscovered an anvil brand. Sure would like to get photographs to send to Richard Postman. I did a Google search on Standard Metal Company and turned up one which was at least at one time in Detroit, MI. However it is listed as a furniture manufacturer. Probably not the anvil manufacturer. ------------------- By the way, last note I had from Mr. Postman said he is working on More on Anvils as he has time, but don't expect publication in the near future.    Ken Scharabok (Poor Boy) - Friday, 03/09/07 19:14:28 EST ok, I didn't know the thing about the burners. It is a 3/4" side arm burner. I knew the circumference formula, but what I meant was that I couldn't really figure out if I need to buy more, so I could put two circles of it in the back of the forge. Forge what? I said general blacksmithing, I guess I mean nothing rather heavy (kind of general but, you get the idea). I have the refractory brick, ITC-100, and more brick to seal (semi) the outside of the forge. As for the paint buckets (and I didn't specify this) I was meaning a 5 gallon one, I even went to a sherwin williams store and couldn't find one. Also, thanks Frostyfly for the dimensions, and as for the door on the back, you could use just one hinge and some sort of latch mechanism right?    - Hollon - Friday, 03/09/07 19:41:23 EST 600 Stainless: All I could find was in reference to chains and trolleys. • carbon steel chain for temperatures up to 250°C • Type 600 stainless-steel (for temperatures up to 400 degrees Celsius); • Type 304 stainless-steel (for temperatures between 400 degrees Celsius and 600 degrees Celsius); and • Type 316 stainless-steel (for temperatures above 600 degrees Celsius). AISI Type 651 is equivalent to 19-9 stainless. AISI Type 660 is equivalent to 25-15 stainless. AISI Type 661 is equivalent to 20-20 stainless. These are high strength high temperature SS alloys but none are hardenable. I suspect what you have is not either.    - guru - Friday, 03/09/07 19:44:47 EST "General blacksmithing" in a small shop means anything from nails to small anvils, horseshoes to long railings all from the same shop. All can be done in a "standard" sized coal forge (one with as large a bellows or blower as one man can operate conveniently). Gas forges are limited by their enclosed volume, shape and openings. Their efficiency is strictly based on using the smallest for a given job. To replace a common coal forge in size capacity and fuel efficiency requires three or four forges of various sizes and shapes. So you have to be much more specific about what you expect to do. It is common to start a piece in a gas forge and not be able to take another heat due to the forged or bent shape. It is also common to heat short heavy billets in a small forge and upset or draw them out on a power hammer to a size that will no longer fit in the same forge. In both cases you must either finish the pieces in one heat, OR use a torch or second forge. Most shops go to a rose bud torch for that late heat for bending or adjusting. But in large shops if there is a steady flow of work then there may be second larger forge. A bladesmith that does nothing larger than big pig-sticker Bowies can get away with a fairly small (breadloaf) size forge for all his work. A bladesmith that makes laminated steel to make his knives from may need a large forge. A decorative ironworker that sticks to small items can get away with that same breadloaf size forge but as soon as they start to make railings they may need much more.    - guru - Friday, 03/09/07 20:10:35 EST General smithing: at the week long event I took my forge to I was set up across from another smith. We both did general smithing but except for tentstakes---someone *always* forgets theirs. I don't think we made any of the same stuff. he was doing ornamental and I was forge welding trivits and making cooking tools---including a bit of patternwelding for one... What is common to one smith may be a once in a bluemoon job to another. Thomas    Thomas P - Friday, 03/09/07 20:21:45 EST Thanks. After etching it, it's apparent that not all of it is the same material, which is good. Perhaps the other steel in it is hardenable. I'll make something with it anyways.    - TMurch - Friday, 03/09/07 20:47:22 EST Just for kicks and giggles.... http://s83.photobucket.com/albums/j291/T-Murch/?action=view¤t=tt001-19.jpg This is it. On the top is the chain with one welding pass, on the bottom is a finished piece forged out.    - TMurch - Friday, 03/09/07 20:50:29 EST sorry, the anvil is standard iron company, marked BB15 then 75 lbs    Cameron - Friday, 03/09/07 21:11:11 EST Ries: I'm sure you know that I agree with everything you said, I might be even more extreme. Many people want to get the job before they buy the machine. Trouble is, without the experience in using the machine it's hard to know how how much time it's going to save you. Then too, if you bid a job based on getting the machine, you gotta get the machine, install it and learn how to use it. Me? I like to get a machine and then find work for it. Pencil pushers HATE that approach. I see guys buy $40K pickups and then can't seem to make the purchase of an ironworker "pencil out". It's all just a matter of deciding. Friend of mine could'nt quite make the purchase of a CNC plasma cutter "pencil out" but he bought it anyway. Well, now he can't get along with out it. He had added up all the cutting he had been getting done on the outside. That did'nt cover it. What he wasn't allowing for was the cutting he wasn't getting done cause he couldn't wait 4-5 days and things that he used to saw now make sense plasma cutting. If he needs simple things like square base plates with 4 holes he just does them on the plasma. And now he can R&D stuff he never would have done before. "when you got a CNC plasma, every job looks like burn-out"!    - grant - Friday, 03/09/07 23:05:20 EST yes the sword spring back, they are the aluminum weapons on http://varmouries.com/vweapons.html there is a picture of the flex, they always return true, as i have shown that test about 300 times to friends and random people that ask about it, how must aluminum be welded?    Cameron - Friday, 03/09/07 23:41:52 EST I am constructing a Don Fogg style forge with a forced air burner. I was thinking it would be really slick if I could just flip one switch and it would light with a piezo spark or something. I allready have 120v gas sloinoid so incase it gets unpluged or something it will shut off the gas, but not if the flame just goes out. Has anyone tried this? Can I find or rig up a controller like this for under $20-$30? Or is the heat just too much for the cheap non IR thermocouples. Thanks.    - Leaf - Friday, 03/09/07 23:46:41 EST Forge Housing: There is a group here in Pa. that is making a batch of forges from condemed propane cilinders, they are 12" dia.    Dave Boyer - Friday, 03/09/07 23:59:59 EST Leaf: the flame sensor in an oil burner gun is an "electric eye" They are common where I live, YMMV.    Dave Boyer - Saturday, 03/10/07 00:02:53 EST i have been playing in my yard for a week or 2.i have an anvil (not quite the right size). for the moment i have only afew questions. a. how would i go about making a fuller? b.what is the best kind of iron and steel(high carbon, ect.)? c. how would i be able to tell what the metal is?    - jonathan - Saturday, 03/10/07 00:10:08 EST Cameron: The highest strength aluminum alloys 2xxx and 7xxx are the least weldable. 6061-T6 is strong and pretty tough and welds easily, but the heat affected zone of the weld is often only 1/2 as strong as the base metal unless re-heat treated after welding. TIG and MIG welding are the most common methods, there are stick welding rods for DC only, they are trickey as hell to use, but do work, I don't recommend them. The low temp torch brazing aloys might work for You depending on how much abuse You put the thing through. They work with a good propane torch on thinner stock, and with MAPP on a bit thicker stock.    Dave Boyer - Saturday, 03/10/07 00:10:37 EST DIY Forges: I've made several o them,all would weld. Usually,I use either the large or the smal freon cylinder, available free from your local HVAC man. The small can gets one 3/4" sidearm burner, the large can gets two burners. The burners MUST be tuned perfectly to reach weldingheat. I always use kiln shelf for the bottom of the forge, s it resists flux. I also always coat the Kaowool with ITC-100. Periodically, I recoat the inside with the ITC-100 to maintain eficiency. Also,I always use TWO layers of 1" Kaowool For my largest forge, I used a 100# propane cylinder cut to 24" long. It is 14" diameter. That forge uses four burners, but any number canbe run selectively, and I reduce the volume with scrap fiebrick or Kaowool. Thereis one key point on forge design that almost everyone misses. The steel is heated by the radiantheat from the forge, and NOT from the direct flame. Want more heat? SImply increase the radiant surface area. Smooth walls have less radiant area than rough walls. A forge filled with soft firebrick rubble has a tremendous amunt of radiant area, so line the walls and corners with rubble. You can glue it in place with ITC-100 if it makes you feel more confident. Using the rubble cuts reheat time by 30-50% over a bare forge. y general purpose forge is a large freon can with two burners. I have done a complete bench from 1-1/2" square stock in it,with a bit of care and cunning. The back door is a must for this. Most of the time, it is closed with a scrap of Kaowool, but when it is needed, I just shove the work through, pushing the Kaowool out onto the floor. I make them so the whole front opens, with a 2-1/2" by 4" port in the door.    vicopper - Saturday, 03/10/07 00:56:25 EST 3 leg anvil stands? I am making a steel anvil stand & like the three leg design. Using a 22.5 angle, with the back legs rotated at 45 to the centre line of the anvil seems to be a stable design. Is the three legged design actually stable? For example, could my kids climb on it? Does anybody have one of these?    - andrew - Saturday, 03/10/07 04:35:54 EST Cameron: Standard Iron Company shows more promise. Google turned up a couple of hits. One was for a company founded in the very early 1900s to try to mine metals from a meteorite crater. Apparently unsuccessful. Another was for a site in WV which seemed to be associated with metal smelting. Doubt it though as it was in the mid-1800s so may have been wrought iron production. Most promising one was a listing in the PN Iron Furnace Sourcebook for a Standand Iron Company Works in Montgomery County. Apparently it was once a very active site for foundries and furnaces. From discussions with Mr. Postman apparently it was not unusual for a foundry to made an attempt at casting anvils. Most were no namers of either cast iron (perhaps chilled) or semi-steel. Speculation is a lot of these ended up in scrap metal drives for WW-I or WW-II. I believe there is a mention in Anvils in America at one time there were over 6,000 foundries in the U.S. Would love to receive photographs. If possible send as an attachment to an e-mail.    Ken Scharabok (Poor Boy) - Saturday, 03/10/07 07:05:47 EST Andrew, I have made a couple of the three leg anvil stands. Mine are very stable . On one I have a 289 lb Peter Wright and I have never had a problem with it. The other is the one I take with me when I do demos.....I from time to time use it to climb on as I set up and tear down for the weekend event. I tried to click on your name to send a pic but got nothing. If you want a pic send your e-mail addy to me by clicking on my screen name and I will foward a photo to you.    Harley - Saturday, 03/10/07 08:24:46 EST Aluminum Swords such as the ones made by Valentine Armoury are made exactly like my description in our Sword Making Article with the exception that they are using 3/16" aluminum because the thicker material that I suggested is not springy enough. The important thing about these grades of aluminium if you want them to be springy is that they are made of factory bar or plate stock that is still in the factory temper condition. They are not forged or welded except out of the blade area. If they are welded it is done with TIG and matching filler. They are shaped by a minor amount of stock removal. 90° Bends: The ABA makes a great deal about the 90° bend and spring back test but there is no thickness to bend radius specification or ratio. Plate glass will bend 90° given a long enough piece. Railroad rail makes 90° bends on a regular basis. The proportionately thinner the piece is in the flex direction the farther it will go without taking a permanent bend. If you take a short piece of that aluminum and try to bend it at a right angle it will break. In fact the harder aluminum in 3/16" will break at a 3/4" radius. It is as hard and much more brittle than mild steel thus makes a good spring. But it IS relatively brittle.    - guru - Saturday, 03/10/07 09:00:47 EST Anvil Stands: We have almost every conceivable type in our iForge article on anvil stands including some three legged stands. When making ANYTHING 3 legged remember that the most stable is with the 3 points equally spaced (120°). Also note that to be as stable as a four cornered (or even a round) support a triangle drawn from each corner must enclose all the area of the comparison shape. It is easy to make a three cornered stand that is less stable than a similar square stand. The larger required triangle needed relative to square also results in more extended trip points at the corners. The only advantage to three points is that it will set flat on an irregular surface. However, I've never had any trouble with my hollow square wooden stands on most floors and earthen surfaces.    - guru - Saturday, 03/10/07 09:14:50 EST Cast anvils, Steel faces: For over a century odd foundries have made cast iron anvils with a ledge sticking out around the top to make them LOOK like there is a separate steel plate. These were often machined or dressed to increase the effect. However, these are ALL cheap cast iron anvils. These Chinese ASO's are a typical example: The anvils above were found in a popular farm supply store. The concrete floor they were sitting on had more rebound (was harder) than these anvils.    - guru - Saturday, 03/10/07 09:36:27 EST Cameron, I agree with the Guru that, if you want to be sure of getting a springy sword, stock removal's the way to go. If it were me, though, I'd try forging one. Hot forging aluminum is fun. Judging the temperature is tricky, but the classic method is to use a pine splinter. Keep taking the piece out of the forge and rubbing the tip of the splinter against it. When the splinter leaves a line of black carbon on the piece, it's hot enough. Don't get it any hotter. In thin sections like a sword, it probably makes more sense to cold forge aluminum. Start by heating to forging temperature and quenching to anneal. When the material starts to work harden, anneal again. Alloys like 6061 aren't *that* hard to heat treat. You heat to a specified temperature (near melting) and quench in water. You then heat to a second temperature (around the 300 to 400 degree range) for a few hours. I've heat treated 6061 by heating to forging heat (using the splinter trick) and quenching, then baking in the kitchen oven. It worked in the sense that the piece got quite noticably harder, though I don't know how close I got to the theoritical maximum strength. A piece as long as a sword might be tricky to quench, but it could be done. The good part is that the piece leaves the quench dead soft, so it's easy to cold straighten before putting it in the oven. You could also cold forge, at least as the last step, and use the piece in the work-hardened condition. There's no guarantee you'd end up with a sword you were happy with, and you might end with one that would fail be breaking. So be careful. But it could be a fun and educational project, if you like doing that kind of thing.    Mike BR - Saturday, 03/10/07 09:56:19 EST Twisted Bars . com : We have a new sponsor. These folks make twisted bar, embossed bar and textured bar for use in decorative iron work. You can save yourself a lot of effort and a lot of wear and tear on you and your equipment by starting here. Small shops without power equipment can produce "forged all over" look work competitively. Great for small projects too!    - guru - Saturday, 03/10/07 11:36:45 EST Well, its no surprise to me that Grant is also of the "buy the tool first, and the jobs will come" philosophy, as he is probably the only person I know who is worse than me in his collection of enormous special purpose tools. There is our mutual friend George, but he really doesnt count because even though he has a 10,000 sq foot building full of tools, including 5 power hammers and 3 forklifts, none of his stuff is hooked up, or is likely to be in our lifetime. But Grant and I have in common the desire to get our hands on industrial equipment, knowing that with a little familiarity, we can make it do things the manufacturer never dreamed of. He has beaten me to the CNC mill, but I am scheming and dreaming, and making SWMBO get those high paying jobs to pay for one- and I will be using it to make pieces that will be forged. Both Grant and I have done plenty of production runs of parts by hand, or with simple jigs- but there is always that Gee-Whizz factor when you get a big machine to do it for you. Life is short, you gotta find your thrills where you can.    - Ries - Saturday, 03/10/07 11:40:43 EST The Twisted Bar company kind of underlines my approach. You see, I am an old Marxist- at least, I believe one of his statements- "The workers must control the means of production". To me, that means you gotta own a tool to know what it can do. I am sure the Twisted Bar company are great guys, and I wish them success- but I plunked down the price of new Toyota for the same machine they use, so I can do wacky stuff with it that nobody else has ever tried. And so far, I have been succeeding. Cant post pics here, but I have been doing some mindboggling twists lately on it. The germans who designed this equipment are pretty conservative, and what they envisioned is mass production- but it has amazing possibilities, and you wont see it until some wacky experimenter type like me or Grant gets our hands on the machines. And one of these days, I will plunk down the money I should be spending on my kids college fund, and get one of those embossing heads for my hebo, and Grant has a 4th axis rotary table on his Haas CNC mill, so we can make custom patterns, and then, watch out. Anybody need 1000 feet of Smiley Face steel bar?    - Ries - Saturday, 03/10/07 11:47:38 EST I guessing vicopper meant by tuning getting the fuel/air ratio, right? This may seem an obvious question to some, but how do you do this? Also, how long do most people make a fire poker, I know there are diferent lengths of them, lets just say what would the length of an average poker be?    - Hollon - Saturday, 03/10/07 11:49:21 EST Ries, sounds perfect for jail bars! Thomas off to visit the kinfolk, back Monday evening.    Thomas P - Saturday, 03/10/07 12:07:50 EST Hollon, to adjust the fuel air mixture either takes adjustments built into the burner or adjustments ADDED to the burner. This is one reason I do not like atmospheric (venturi) burners. Although I have built many that worked the easy one to build have no adjustment. Blower type burners only require adjusting the fuel at the valve. It helps to have an air control to match the burner to the forge but to go from rich to lean only requires turning one valve. On atmospheric burners you can put a choke in front of the intake but this only makes very subtle changes. If the burner is far out of wack the choke will completely choke the burner before making any difference. So you still need a properly built and matched to the forge burner. You can also move the nozzel in and out byt that too only makes subtle changes. I have modified the design of the burner I show on our FAQs, Gas Forge article to use an all-thread tube for the center tube. This allows adding a disk choke and moving the injection tip in and out of the burner. Between the two adjustments you can change the burner somewhat. Even changing the orifice size in an atmospheric burner does not make as big a change as you would think. Pushing more gas through sucks more air. Less gas means less air. Changing the velocity of the gas makes a bigger difference. In this case you need a smaller orifice and more pressure OR larger orifice and less pressure. The small high velocity jet will suck in more air per unit of gas and the low velocity jet will suck in less air. You can spend a LOT of time fooling with atmospheric burners trying to figure them out when a simple fan and a valve will do.    - guru - Saturday, 03/10/07 12:25:21 EST Poker Lengths: Hollon, This is like the general blacksmithing question. . . Fire Pokers are generally the size of the height of the fireplace opening OR the width of a free standing fireplace. I have made them from 3/8" stock and 28" long to 1/2" stock and four feet long. I have seen larger and I THINK I made one 60" long for someone once. . . Anyway, for your purposes it depends on the local market and what is a common fireplace. In cities they tend to be small but in country resort areas they are often HUGE. Those at places like Cracker Barrel Resturants are four feet long.    - guru - Saturday, 03/10/07 12:33:08 EST I have contacted phoenix hammers twice now using their contact form that is linked to the advertisers page. Never had a response. Have checked spam folders as well. They must pick and choose customers.    - Barney - Saturday, 03/10/07 15:09:01 EST Barney: I have the same problem with Centaur Forge.    Ken Scharabok (Poor Boy) - Saturday, 03/10/07 16:27:25 EST Barney, You never know. I get mail all the time that I set aside to respond to and never get to it. . I am always finding half finished unsent letters in my out box. I tested their form and it is working. Note that they are no longer making the small hammers, just the large 150A. I think the price is about $12,000. Probably should be more.    - guru - Saturday, 03/10/07 16:31:41 EST No mail response. . . I also get at LEAST one mail a day from people that typo their e-mail address and it bounces. I got two today from a Donald Sturman in Oakland, CA. I made up a nice researched reply and it bounced as user not known. . . I know many other folks that get contact form responses with bad e-mail addresses. Another dumb move is folks that want a hard copy catalog and do not provide a mailing address. . . Or want shipping costs and do the same. . . Where to? The US, Canada, England, New Zealand, South America, Togo?    - guru - Saturday, 03/10/07 17:10:45 EST On pokers, I sell them on eBay. Size of stock and length, as noted above, is very dependent on intended use. I wouldn't go with less than 3/8", nor larger than 1/2", unless for a very special purpose. 3/8", 7/16" and 1/2" round and square seem to work the best. Sizes can range from that needed for a wood burning kitchen stove, to an indoor wood burning stove, to an outdoor, wood-burning furnace or to one designed for a campfire or fire ring. If square stock, a twist in the middle enhances the appearance. Then you have essentially a somewhat limited range of options for a point and hook and options for the other end only limited by your imagination and capabilities. I don't recommend this for anyone without high-speed downloading, since it is a VERY large file, but there is an article on ole' Poor Boy here (click on the March 07 issue): http://www.ourcoop.com/cooperator/default.asp. One of the pictures is of a ram's head fireplace poker of my design. (Only real beef I have with fireplace sets is they tend to make the shovel the same length as the poker. To me it needs to be short enough to be easily managed - same thing for a coal forge. Still trying to decide the length and type of shovel needed for a propane forge.) ------------ Off topic, but... As the result of the article cited above I received a call from one of the organizers of Mule Days in Columbia, TN on April 12-15, 2007. Doesn't sound like a big thing, but it is one of the largest events of its kind in the U.S. and attendance is usually over 250,000 for the long weekend. They are looking for blacksmiths to demonstrate and/or sell in their primitive crafts area. For this area (versus the arts & crafts or flea market ones) items should be essentially produced from scratch. If someone were to try to both demonstate and sell I wouldn't recommend it unless a dedicated person was available to handle the sales table. Taking order for subsequent delivery is fine with them. Vendor camping available on site but have no idea on security for anything not secured by lock and stout container. If interested just do a Google search on Mule Days, Columbia, TN. ---------------- Going back to the topic of bandsaws, I may end up keeping the one I have now to use as an upright bandsaw. It has served well to cut off the excess end of a hammer handle and put in the wedge slot, and I have used it a fair bit to cut standard lumber. I have a radial arm saw but received word, yet again, of a friend having to have a hand reattached from one. As I have noted in the past, I consider the radial arm saw the most dangerous piece of equipment in the shop. Other saws can take out a nick or gouge. It likes BIG chunks.    Ken Scharabok (Poor Boy) - Saturday, 03/10/07 18:15:06 EST anyone know of any good resorces for making a blown propane forge online?    Frostfly - Saturday, 03/10/07 19:21:39 EST Frosty, Goto FAQs, G, Gas Forges, bottom - Stupid Gas Burner. This burner will fit forges from breadbox size to about 4 cubic feet (IF you have a bulk gas tank). With a bigger blower than shown it will fire a 20 cubic foot forge. Knife makers put similar versions on little vertical freon bottle forges. Now, If you want to get fancy you can put an electric solenoid valve on this unit that is NC (Normally Closed). This will shut off the gas if there is a loss of power to the fan. I have used the same burner with auto ignition, start up timers and a solenoid valve to make a temperature controlled forge. This gets a tad expensive.    - guru - Saturday, 03/10/07 20:11:24 EST Ah! not sure why i didn't look there first. Is there much diffrence in the construction of a forge for a blown burner vs an atmospheric burner?    Frostfly - Saturday, 03/10/07 20:41:26 EST Hey, does anyone know how to quench and temper sucker rod? from oil pumps theyre circular, but have a squared off portion that is exactly 1 inch, and i made a hardy cutoff from it, and was just wondering, should i heat to non magnetic, quench the frist 1 inch or so in water, then grind it quick, and watch the colours run? what colur should it be at when i full quench? cam    Cameron - Saturday, 03/10/07 21:56:57 EST One more question on the forge. Someone suggested that I make the back part of the forge hinge since I was going to fab it, so to get the kaowool to stick to the door, could you just "glue" it on there with ITC-100?    - Hollon - Saturday, 03/10/07 23:10:01 EST Cammeron, Sucker rod varies from wrought iron (a very long time ago) to a medium carbon alloy steel. Junkyard steel rules apply (anvilfire FAQs).    - guru - Sunday, 03/11/07 00:01:58 EST Forge Construction: To use ITC-100 for glue to metal the metal needs to be primed with ITC-213. The Kaowool used on the doors of NC-Tool Forges is held on with sheet metal screws from the sides. These simply act a pins or fingers sticking into the ceramic blanket. A ledge can also held do the same. Half thick or insulating bricks make good forge doors. The half thick bricks can slide in an angle iron track. Regular bricks or insulating bricks stacked in front of the rear door can be used to create different opening shapes. I prefer hard refractory bricks for the floor of my forges as they hold up better than anything and being a standard size are economical to replace. I support them with bar grating to allow heat and steam to escape. My big forge is currently a stacked brick forge but it is inconvenient when expansion and contraction, or use move the bricks and create leaks. My future "big forge" will be a light weight arched Kaowool roof that can be easily lifted off the work or set on brick risers to adjust its height. If you need to wire Kaowool to a forge roof use inconel wire. If you bury it in the kaowool and then coat with ITC-100 it will hold up fairly well.    - guru - Sunday, 03/11/07 00:20:23 EST Venturi VS Forced Air I have heard many times that venturi burners use less gas and are cheaper to run than forced air, and my personal experiance seems to even bear that out. My question is why is that? Seems like the same air gas ratio mixed properly should produce the same amount of BTUs no matter how it is produced. Is it just that people spend more time tuning the venturi so it will actualy run and the blower ones will work no matter how badly tuned they are? What is the deal? DOORS, I just started facing my makeshift hard fire brick forge doors on the hot side with the kaowool board, seems to make it run a bit hotter. I don't know if it is inconel, but the elements out of an old space heater will work for holding up sagging kaowool. in a forge it would probably degrade if it wasn't coated I supose, but so does the kaowool    - Leaf - Sunday, 03/11/07 00:53:16 EST Heater Elements and Blower burners: Heater Elements are made of "nichrome" wire. This is an alloy of nickle and chrome (80/20) melting point 2550°F. There is also a grade C with 15% iron. Nichrome A holds up pretty well but it DOES oxidize and degrade. You can coat it with ITC-213 and reduce the oxidation but the melting point is the melting point. The only reason atmospheric burners SEEM more efficient is that they do not create as much heat as blower burners. A single small blower burner will create as much heat as a whole bank of atmospheric burners. The trick is that if you want to :tune" one down a lot the blower pipe must be smaller so that the fuel/air mixture is faster than the flame front velocity. If you have a big pipe coming off the blower you have to run it hard enough to prevent flash back. The blower burner has a MUCH greater range of operation and adjustability but you cannot adjust the gross capacity below a certain point. But it would be the same if you built an atmospheric burner with a 2" mixing tube and 3" intake. . . . Many bladesmiths build blower burners using the smallest blowers they can find and 1" pipe for what would normally be a 2 burner atmospheric forge. Atmospheric burners also are very expensive compared to blower burners, especially on large forges. All those plumbing fittings, valves and mig tips are not free and then you start running copper tubing to each one. I have built at least a dozen two burner setups using all new hardware and the costs are significant. It is also difficult to find all the parts and pieces in ONE place. Add half a tank of gasoline for the shopping trip. This is not even counting the labor modifying parts, making parts, machining parts. Most folks will say that the $100 each T-rex burners are a fair price to pay. But what if you are building a forge that need 4 or 6 of the little 1" or 3/4" burners? A forge that size will run nicely on a single blower burner. I've built both and will continue to build both. But I build atmospheric burners mostly because I am constantly looking for better ways to make them. One thing I have found building the "classic" cheap gas tube or tank forges is that they have significant usability issues. A good gas forge needs a front and back hearth for supporting and parking work, and doors that stay where you put them. Doors need to slide and be counterbalanced to stay put. The use of an air curtain in front of the door to divert dragon's breath is one of the best ideas I have seen in a long time. Commercial forges do not include these features because they add size and cost. If you are going to build a forge for your own shop it should not be a miserable less convenient forge but should have all the bells and whistles.    - guru - Sunday, 03/11/07 09:54:45 EST Cutting stock/steel: Hi All, I am looking for a way to cut steel without a shower of sparks and heating the 'ell out of the piece that was just cut. I currently use a compound mitre (woodworking type with 10" cutoff wheel) saw. I know this is abuse of the tool, but I never used it for woodworking anyway so at least I am getting some use out of the tool. So, the functionality of a compound mitre saw without the fireworks, that is what I am looking for. Do I have to spend $1500 on a good horizontal bandsaw? It does not look like these do compound mitre though... What do you guys use? Mike    Mike Berube - Sunday, 03/11/07 12:00:29 EST Mike, I have seen good band saws that the cutting system rotated (single mitre) but not both. The primary reason is that steel is heavy long stock and is usually on a rack or conveyor system leading into the saw. They DO make cold cut saws that the head rotates and you can add a angle vise to get compound angle cutting. But the angles greatly reduce the capacity of the saw. Plasma cutting and laser cutting heat the work less than abrasive cutoff saws. Then there is water-jet but these have a problem with impingment on angular surfaces. I suspect that what you need is to cut the same compound angle repeatedly. I would rig up a special fixture to hold work at the proper angle in whatever saw I was going to use. Of course you probably need two to make a matching corner.    - guru - Sunday, 03/11/07 12:48:48 EST Old school, get a nice work out, use a hacksaw.    - Nippulini - Sunday, 03/11/07 13:09:33 EST Thanks guru that makes sense. I remember now being able to dial my 1" atmospheric way down before I replaced the orifice with a smaller one, seems to get hotter with the smaller orifice than with one closer to michel portier's specs, but I am not really following his plans ether. Yes, buying one would probably be cost effective if I counted my time fiddling around, but then if I wanted to be cost efective, I would buy components and weld them together instead of forging anything. Have you played around with the burner nozzels? At the pottery supply I was looking at there nozzels and some of them have a large hole in the center and smaller holes around the outside. They had a cast iron one that threaded onto 1" pipe that I allmost bought, but it was $50. So I am experimenting with making mine out of ceramic. Nichrome I belive actualy lasts much longer in an oxidising environment and breaks down rapidly in a reduction atmosphere, or at least needs to be oxidised now and then to keep some sort of protective oxide coating. Also a very common pottery supply item.    - Leaf - Sunday, 03/11/07 13:49:41 EST Metal cutting If you want a chop saw that cuts soft metal without the sparks use a carbide blade made for metal, and switch back to the abrasive if your not sure about the hardness of the metal (cutting rebar or leafsprings for example). They make them for skil saws too, a welder I know said they cut heavy plate like it was plywood.    - Leaf - Sunday, 03/11/07 13:57:31 EST Hacksaw... :-) I am neither accurate nor can I make repeatable cuts with a hacksaw. It is cheap though... I guess I could live without compound mitre capability. Generally I am just doing 90degree cutoff, with occasional mitre and VERY occasional compound. Guru, I've read all you have said recently about cheap horizontal bandsaws and I agree with about cheap tools. They are not worth the money (witness I just sprung for a Nimba anvil for my first anvil, which I LOVE by the way). However the machines that look like they are built to take it, are more machine than I have room for or care to deal with (I am not interested in dealing with cutting oil pumps, nor the maintenance of a hydraulic pull down system for the saw). Given that I only do metal working as a hobby (3 dozen cuts would be a lot in a weekend for me), maybe a simple (these days means cheap) tool would work for me. Could you please have a look at this saw at the Grizzly site? It has a cast table, ball bearing guides, cast iron guide brackets and one of the 2 side bearings is on an eccentric shaft for adjustability. Also it mitres to 60 degrees! Check out pages 32,33 for pictures of the guides. http://images.grizzly.com/grizzlycom/manuals/g0622_m.pdf Let me know what deficiencies you see please. I've never used one before (well once when I was a kid in a machine shop) so I don't necessarily know what I am looking for. I own one of their woodworking bandsaws and it is pretty decent (though that was a $700 17" saw, a higher end model than what I am looking at for the metal saw). If this saw were to be servicable (as in not breaking a blade once/day and making straight cuts), I might buy one. What I don't want to do is spend $300 (with shipping) on something that I want to just throw away. Thanks, Mike    Mike Berube - Sunday, 03/11/07 14:06:17 EST Leaf, Yeah, I've just started seeing those. I haven't seen a 10" one yet. If I could find a 10" blade that just might be my answer. Have you seen a 10" blade? Or do you know of places that I could look? I have not seen many places that carry these. Mike    Mike Berube - Sunday, 03/11/07 14:09:55 EST Metal cutting I have a cheap POS harbor frieght 4x6, it works but I will never be able to get square cuts, then again it was $140 and I wouldn't be too worried taking it out in the field ether (and maybe leaving it there to rust). I have heard the grizzly specificaly recomended by reputable blacksmiths, maybe they are a good deal for the money. Probably just depends on how square you want your cuts. They make 10" carbide blades, I have been thinking of getting one for my old cast iron makita since it isn't so great for much else. Any welding supply should be able to hook you up. Found this too: http://www.cnczone.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-27345.html    - Leaf - Sunday, 03/11/07 14:54:57 EST Grizzly Saw: As I go through the manual it LOOKS exactly like my old Ridgid. Then they show the cheap plastic wheels. These look like throw aways from a child's toy. The leg sheet metal is MUCH lighter as evidences by the embossing that was necessary for stiffness. . . What are those crummy plastic blade guide covers about? The blade guide wheels LOOK OK. They are not as large as my old saw but those particular (the old bearings) are getting hard to get. Manufacturers use what they can get. The vise parts are heavier than my Ridgid. A surprise. The sheet metal table for vertical use looks pretty flimsy. My saw cam with a little 2" by 3" table that I replaced with a 4" by 5". The old (very used) one was cut up pretty bad around the blade slit and I just happened to have a larger piece of 1/8" plate. I made a larger wood table that attached to THAT. Used it once and never found it that useful. As a vertical saw it does not cut curves well. Nor is it supposed to. The coarser 6-10 variable pitch blades listed IF available in HSS bi-metal are THE way to go unless you are cutting sheet metal (not recommended). If you need the ear-muffs recommended to operate the saw then there is something VERY VERY wrong. All in all it looks pretty good. But the devil is in the details. Are the gear box and wheel bearings of sufficient size? Is the (cheapest they could find) motor going to hold up?    - guru - Sunday, 03/11/07 15:14:55 EST Leaf, Thanks for the link, that was very interesting. I will have to look more into the dry cut chop saws. Thanks, Mike    Mike Berube - Sunday, 03/11/07 15:54:55 EST Guru Thanks for taking the time to peruse the manual. Yup the stand/legs are junk. I don't think I'd use it vertical much if at all. When I looked, all the variable pitch blades are bi-metal. The fixed pitch are HSS. I may call them and ask them about the noise. You are right, if one needs muffs there is something wrong. I am sure the bearings are NOT of sufficient size to stand up to long term use. How fast do these things cut? After following the link that Leaf provided, I looked up some dry cut chop saws. Saw a video of a Milwaukee 14" dry cut (carbide blade 1500RPM) saw cut through what looked like 2x2 angle iron (3/16" ?) in about 5 seconds. Very impressive. $435 This would probably be a much better investment, as Milwaukee makes good stuff. Mike    Mike Berube - Sunday, 03/11/07 16:09:12 EST I haven't done the math but I think most 10" chop saws are around 3000 RPMs, seems like the surface feet per minute would be close enough to a 14" at 1500RPM. Of course with the 10" you would be limited to 3" material, you should buy one and report back so I can decide if I want to buy one ;-) For cutting bar stock the 4x6 is just fine, it is when you want to cut structurals and pipe with square cuts quickly that the chop saw (or a real band saw) is beter. I use my 4x6 verticle to cut thicker sheet metal all the time, works great for that with a finer blade. Of course as guru points out about the details my HF POS had the motor actualy catch on fire and the flimsy stand is long gone along with the verticle table... other that that it is great!    - Leaf - Sunday, 03/11/07 18:36:46 EST Leaf, My 10" chop saw turns at 5500RPM. Just did the math. 10" @ 5500RPM = 4582 SFPM 14" @ 1500RPM = 5497 SFPM So you are right, a 10" in my chop saw would be at a comparable surface speed (though slower, which would mean even less sparking). I still haven't found a 10" one yet. Found 7-1/4, 8, 14... Mike    Mike Berube - Sunday, 03/11/07 18:44:52 EST Dry cut blades These ones are only rated for 5200 RPMs and that speed is probably really pushing it too. My makita is 4100RPMs so I might just buy one, I think maybe it was my skil saw that was 3200RPMs, you would think they would be faster. The 14" might be able to run at higher SPM because they can cool off more or something. Probably should save your miter saw for wood and maybe buy an old used saw that is slower, they are only like $50-$80 for the non-compound miter around here. http://www.amazon.com/MK-Morse-CSM1052TSC-Circular-10-Inch/dp/B000E8FP3K    - Leaf - Sunday, 03/11/07 19:38:20 EST MIKE: Milwaukee cold saw $400 http://www.tools-plus.com/milwaukee-6190-20.html    - Leaf - Sunday, 03/11/07 19:55:13 EST I'm doing some family history research and have discovered an ancestor in the 17th century who was described both as a smith and a hammerman. I can't find any info on what a hammerman did and how it was different from being a blacksmith (if it is). Can anyone help please?    elaine ferguson - Sunday, 03/11/07 20:23:39 EST 10" chopsaw blades. Find someone with a 12" and let them know you will buy the blade from them when it is down to 10".    Ken Scharabok (Poor Boy) - Sunday, 03/11/07 20:34:21 EST would it be all right to have 2 elbows in a 6" stovepipe chimney thanks Jd    - johnny - Sunday, 03/11/07 22:32:03 EST Carbide blade chopsaws: There are some on the market, they turn 1200 - 1500 RPM instead of about 4000 RPM like an abrasive saw. They are a little more expensive than a 4x6 bandsaw. An 8" blade metal cutting "skillsaw" type tool turns about 3600 RPM compaired to 4500 - 5500 RPM for a woodcutting saw. A worm drive saw turns the slowest of the woodcutting saws, that makes them the best choice for a metal cutting blade, there are 7 1/4" metal cutting blades for them that work.    Dave Boyer - Sunday, 03/11/07 22:33:05 EST Mike B. I think Your sfpm is a bit off on the 10" 5500 RPM blade.    Dave Boyer - Sunday, 03/11/07 22:47:30 EST Thanks to all for the enjoyable and informative comentary on the micro forge. To the Guru. I'm sorry I over looked the article on the gas forge page. However, if I had seen it I wouldn't have gotten to read all of these replies. I read through the complete article this time. I understand the difference between insulating bricks and fire bricks. Would a fire brick work as a substitute on the "Daniel Boone" forge or is it to brittle? I also have some ceramic plates that were used to line a pottery kiln at one point and were replaced when these were broken during cleaning. They are about .75" thick and of a similar density to fire brick though the material is not as grainy. Would these be a better bet if I cut and layer them?    Will - Sunday, 03/11/07 23:18:47 EST Fire brick for micro forge. Sure it would work great IF you could carve it out. Refractory bricks are VERY hard and very durable. It takes diamond tools to cut it. It would also heat up a lot more slowly since the dense refractory IS NOT an insulation, it conducts heat well. Insulating bricks are soft and friable and do not conduct heat well. These can literally be carved with a dull table spoon. Yes you could build a small rectangular micro forge with kiln shelf. But the problems are the same as refractory brick.    - guru - Sunday, 03/11/07 23:30:51 EST johnny-- I have had several woodstoves working and drawing perfectly fine for the past 30-some years sending smoke at much higher temps than a coal forge will produce inside the pipe, with two bends in them. (Straight up, bend, then straight out through the wall-- my motto is never punch a hole in a roof that you don't want to leak-- and then another bend to go straight up. The main thing about stove pipes is, you want an asbestos (or whatever they are packing them with these days, old OSHA inspection forms perhaps) double-wall pipe going through any combustible wall with a spacer holding that at least two inches away from the wood. Do not think the triple-wall/air space sheet metal thimbles they sell in some hardware stores are safe for wood stoves going through wood-framed walls. They are not.    Miles Undercut - Monday, 03/12/07 00:16:59 EST Hammer man: Elain, These are usually the men that operated power trip hammers. At that time these were big slow water powered machines called "helve hammers". They were used primarily in the production of wrought iron and the forging of heavy machine parts and anvils. A smith that worked with a crew of laborers (including hammer men) was generally in charge but also worked in the process. Much work was done partially under the trip hammer while held with large jib crane supported tongs and then taken out from under the hammer and worked by hand with sledge hammers. There were men to operate the crane, to man handle the tongs, to hold tools and to wield sledges. It was hot dangerous crowded work and the smith coordinated it all as well as swinging a hammer or sledge as needed. This is a lot different than being a "common" blacksmith. It was the first industrial blacksmithing. This method of working went on from the 1300's to the 1800's and even later in some places. The invention of the steam trip hammer in 1839 rapidly put the old wooden helved trip hammers out of business but the methods of work stayed much the same until recent times.    - guru - Monday, 03/12/07 00:25:54 EST Stovepipe: On what? 6" is much too small for a coal forge, 8" is marginal and 10" or larger is recommended.    - guru - Monday, 03/12/07 00:27:49 EST Leaf, Dave Boyer, SFPM Dave, you say my SFPM is a LITTLE bit off on the 10" at 5500RPM? You have a flair for understatement. :-) I somehow forgot to multiply by pi. Thanks for the catch!! Leaf, 10" @ 5500RPM is 14,398 SFPM. Compared to 5497 for 14". Even at 4100RPM that sucker will explode. Sorry for the misinformation. Equivalent SFPM on 10" would be at 2099RPM. Leaf, thanks for the link to the Milwaukee 14" dry cut, that is the best price I've seen. Mike