Blacksmithing and Metalworking Q&A : anvilfire Guru page : March 16

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THIS is a forum for questions and answers about blacksmithing and general metalworking. Ask the Guru any reasonable question and he or one of his helpers will answer your question, find someone that can, OR research the question for you.

This is an archive of posts from March 16 - 22, 2007 on the Guru's Den

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Mike, We have a plan for a lever type on our iForge page (see fullering tool). Then Blacksmiths Journal sells the "smithing magician" kits. they are a good durable tool that are made better than you are likely to from scratch.

- guru - Friday, 03/16/07 00:58:38 EST

Ok. I've been posting a lot of questions reguarding the forge I'm hopefully going to acutally have built someday. The burner is built, I'm waiting on a blower yet. I have a shell for the forge and will have it ready to go as soon as I can get the innards. I'm to the point where I can start pulling random ideas and seeing if i want to try them. So random idea. What happens if I "squish" the pipe i'm using and make an oval shaped chamber. So I end up with a bit more side to side space and a bit less height. are there any reasons for me Not to do this? has anyone tried it?

Frostfly - Friday, 03/16/07 02:40:58 EST

Frostfly: You would end up with the same internal cubic inches so it should affect the performance of the forge. Most farrier forges have far more width and depth than height.

Ken Scharabok (Poor Boy) - Friday, 03/16/07 07:36:05 EST

Mike Berube, Frank Turley gave you good sound advice. When I was starting out, I too was gun shy, and still catch myself hammering past hot enough, trying to save time by saving another heat. In reality, as Frank notes hot metal moves much easier.
As a side note, his mention of heavier scale is also true, and one of the things I have learned, especially if using a gasser is that the scale, in this heavy form will pop off and carry a good distance, and still have enough heat to really burn you. I have learned to give a quick tap over the anvil to knock loose scale off, or sometimes to sorta saw the bar over an edge of the anvil to scrape the scale off, then pound. I also have a heavy brush to use.
I too like to use the heel of the horn, and I use both a 2.5# engineers hammer, dressed to a more round profile, or an angle peen of 2# or 2.5#. The angle peen against the horn in effect fullers both sides of the bar, and will really move out the iron. My best angle peens are made by Nathan Robertson, and have a generous radius, leaving an easy to clean up surface.
As Frank notes, I too slow down, and get that hammer high, as it is easy to get a lot of velocity without as much effort when raising the hammer high. I tend to have my hammer hand reach over my head when moveing a lot of metal. I do not push the hammer. I have a small tear in the rotator cuff in both shoulders, and this technique does NOT hurt my shoulders, or my Tennis elbow like issue in both my elbows. (the tennis elbow is not from smithing but rather from a virus, much like Lymes desease, caught while working in Mexico) A slow,steady pace, with the "right for you" hammer, enough heat, and some technique will let you really move the iron.

ptree - Friday, 03/16/07 07:36:18 EST

Tennis elbow:

Ptree, it's interesting that you mentioned getting the tendonitis from a virus. I got it in both elbows at the same time some years ago and just assumed it was from smithing. I was gripping my tongs way too close to the joint, and using a death grip. I thought it was weird that both elbows hurt, since the causes were very different. Maybe I caught something?

Anyway, I changed my tong grip and also my hammer technique, going to a more Hofi-like swing. Both elbows have cleared up nicely and I only occasionally feel soreness.

- Marc - Friday, 03/16/07 08:32:46 EST

Aaron B,H,:
I've found that that really is part of demoing. Example: I've demoed at the same arts&crafts fair for the past few years that is hosted by the college i attended. Every year there has been the same local kid that has shown up wanting me to make him a sword. Every year I explain that I am not a bladesmith (or a farrier, but that's another story) and that I don't make swords (not to mention that his mom probably wouldn't want him having a sword), and then proceed to explain what an ornamental metalworker/blacksmith does make. Now if it was the kids dad showing up and heckling me every year...I'd probably tell him to bug off....

As Thomas P said above, having a "fancy piece" does help a WHOLE lot. Right now I am working on a big (24"x18"X48") roll around pine tool chest. Attached to said chest will be different styles of hinges, handles , latches , legs , and whatever else will screw, nail, or bolt onto it (not to mention all the tools inside). I decided to make this for a couple reasons 1) it looks a little more professional than a bunch of 5 gallon buckets full of tongs and hammers, and 2). It gives me a good way to show off some of my different work that would take too long to make for a short demo. I've found that while some people are interested in how to make leaves from steel, most people can only find limited use for such things in there home :)

-Aaron (not the only one anymore) @ the SCF

thesandycreekforge - Friday, 03/16/07 09:58:52 EST

I get this same question too. . . Perhaps we should all carry a fancy sword to demos and when they ask "can you make me a sword", pull it out and say "Sure Kid, do you have $20,000?"

The custom made tool chest with fancy hardware is a nice idea. Could sell some furniture that way as well. For some ideas take a look at the Armada Chest on OldLocks.com and the Mästermyer tool chest. I think Atli has a chest that I have photos of somewhere. . .

My problem is I need more tool chests for storage and organization and when I build them they will be plain and as functional as possible. . . I'd love to have time to make a display piece.

- guru - Friday, 03/16/07 10:51:02 EST

Marc,
I had had some traumatic arthritis over the years from the broken bones and joints suffered in car wrecks, a mild small plane crash, and 600 parachute jumps. I also did many years in the ARMY, running on concrete.
When I caught the virus, evry injury I had ever suffered felt as if it had just occerred, with bleeding in the joints. My elbows had 4" by 6" hemmorages, that lasted for several weeks. The VA did many tests and said I had an unidentified virus. I wore the tennis elbow straps for a couple of years 24-7, but now only wear them when I demo, as I have a power hammer in the shop, and do a lot less hand hammer work in the shop.
I don't know what I had, but would not wish it on anyone. Severe fatique, and pain for about 6 months. Took me another year to get back to really being able to work as before.

ptree - Friday, 03/16/07 10:56:32 EST

Thomas P, Thank you, very insightful and humorous, As for 1859 period we dont stay in first person wich would be acting as though your stuck there we just tell people about the shakers. All I do is make knives and repair tools, Which is very hard without an anti-oxidant took me forever to figure that one out, This ones problably been asked but round here borax is hard to find can you tell me of anything else?

Aaron B.H - Friday, 03/16/07 11:51:00 EST

As for a fancy piece I did succeed in making a Gladius but I hardend it before straightnin it and now have a very bent sword. I started with a big rig leaf spring wich I like for making knives and such it seems to do well enough. Although just the drawing out by hand is enough to make most take a detour in there hobby for a while:) the things usualy 1/2" thick by 5 1/2" to 7" wide the sword took me 5 months with about 5 to 6 hours in the forge 5 days out of the week and knives from leaf spring take me about a week alone made a knife three days ago in four hours with the help of a striker. is it me or is the metal to hard to effectivly draw out quickly? I dont realy have the finances to go out and do anything but dive for scrap ohh yeah I got a 150 pounds of 1095 steel at the scrap yard for like 50 bucks im still working with that for now.

Aaron B.H - Friday, 03/16/07 12:07:20 EST

Aaron, Where is "around here"

Borax can be found in many but not all grocery stores. It hides next to the bleach as a "laundry booster".

You can also purchase the dehydrated type from ceramic supply houses. We list one on our links page.

Now. . good old 20 Mule Team Borax is not used everywhere. I've hauled 15 or 20 pounds to Costa Rica. If you can't find it locally I am sure we can work something out.

- guru - Friday, 03/16/07 12:14:31 EST

Tool and spring steels are a LOT tougher to forge than mild steel. You must work it hot (but not burning) and then quit before it is a medium red. This means short heats.

- guru - Friday, 03/16/07 12:16:37 EST

Leaf spring is harder under the hammer; but 1 week is excessive. I would expect to forge out a blade in one session usually a morning or an afternoon and I'm not pushing myself.

It's hard to troubleshoot remotely---to see how hot you are working at. How big and well mounted the anvil you are using, How big your hammer is, etc.

One thing I would look into is are you taking *large* leaf springs and forging thin blades from them? If so you are throwing away time and money. Start with a LS closer to your max end thickness. "Free" steel may be more expensive than bought steel if it's wasting fuel and days of work.

Fullering: I like to use the horn on my 500# Fisher in conjunction with a straight peen I have with a very large rounded pein---looks like a 1"+ round was welded to the peen area. no sharp edged dings in the metal and it draws fast!

Thomas

Thomas P - Friday, 03/16/07 12:44:13 EST

Small round coil spring stock forges out into nice blade sizes much more easily than flat leaf springs. A normal auto coil spring is about 1/2" in diameter and will make a Bowie or a sword when flattened. Helper coil springs will make nice smaller blades and small springs like valve and clutch springs will make small pocket and folders.

Junk yard steel rules apply.

- guru - Friday, 03/16/07 12:50:21 EST

Frank Turley,

Thanks for the very eloquent lesson in hammering. Excellent explanation.

When you say "well above the head", how much? Seems like I limit myself to having my hand go no higher than the top of my head (thus the head of the hammer is a handle's length above my head). Should I go higher?

When I swing harder I am still death-gripping the hammer a bit (I know this is wrong, but I am still a little concerned with pulling the hammer down from above my head and MISSING the piece...putting a serious ding in my new Nimba :-( I will get over this and I get better all the time).

So if I read your message correctly you would seem to say that for 5/8", my assessment of "not having enough hammer" was reasonable given my 2.5lb hammer. Given that I have a question. I noticed that when working smaller stock (3/8") the anvil was "giving the hammer back" very nicely, then when working heavier (5/8") I noticed that the anvil seemed to be "giving the hammer back" much less. I took this to mean that my anvil stand was flexing on the heavier blows. What are your thoughts?

Thanks,
Mike

Mike Berube - Friday, 03/16/07 15:59:17 EST

ptree,

Thanks for chipping in on the discussion.

What is an angle peen (is it cross, straight or something else)?

Gasser and scale... Does your gas forge have a choke for the air intake? I find if I adjust the choke on mine just right I can reduce the scale SIGNIFICANTLY. But there is a fine line between just right and just a little less air and the heat goes way down. I have noticed the heavier scale (I've only gone up to an orange/yellow heat) can pop off and singe my hammer hand a bit. Good idea to pop it off with a light blow first.

Thanks,
Mike

Mike Berube - Friday, 03/16/07 16:06:16 EST

Angle peen hammers have been around a while. The peen is turned 45° to the normal axis. Most have ben custom made or made in low production. Big BLU Manufacturing is now making a line of Czech pattern hammers with diagonal peens. Will be on their site in a couple weeks.

- guru - Friday, 03/16/07 16:10:31 EST

Mike Berube, I use a blown gasser, and they tend to scale a little heavier than an atmospheric. I also tend to have several irons in the fire, and that allows them to scale up a bit. The angle peen is either the best thing since shelled peanuts, or worthless depending on who you ask. The advantage is that they allow a more ergonomic body position for me. I first saw one when Rob Gunther demo'ed at Tipton IN. years ago. Went home and made one by sawing and grinding a spare 2.5# engineers hammer. Worked ok. Nathan Robertson makes a very nice diagonal, and sells them reasonably. He can be reached across the street. I am sure that big blue's will also be a nice hammer as well. I would not buy a diagonal peen prior to trying one. You may love it or hate it.
A trick to help with the death grip on the handle, first carefully scrape all the varnish off the handle. Polish any dings to make a smooth grip. Then rub pure, natural bees wax on the handle. When the warmth of your hand warms the bees wax, it gets just a little sticky, making for an easy grip, that does not make you strain. Also helps when you get persiration on the hands. Reapply as needed. Handle shape can be very personal. I take store bought handles and put flats on the sides, giving a flatened oval shape. Works for me.

ptree - Friday, 03/16/07 17:20:07 EST

First ..Thanks for any help..
How can I tell a cast iron anvil from a cast steel one?
Ive seen ads per both descriptors. I realize that the
cast irons wont last...but Harbor Freight has a 55 lber
for 30 bucks on sale. I have a Peter Wright about 145 lbs
but would like to have a lighter more portable one that I
could move easily. Most 70 lb anvils start at about 250..
I dont have that cash available at this time. Thanks again walt

walt - Friday, 03/16/07 17:20:30 EST

Walt,

Spend the thirty bucks on a hand truck to move your PW. Any $30/55# anvil is sure to be a piece of dreck.

vicopper - Friday, 03/16/07 17:26:43 EST

Guru, ptree,

Thanks for the info on the diagonal peen. Seems like a good idea to me. I may look for one.

ptree, thanks for the hammer grip tip.

Mike

Mike Berube - Friday, 03/16/07 17:52:11 EST

Actually guru I find it's easier to hot cut a length of length spring close to thickness and forge that than breaking down a coil spring and drawing it out sideways to get width.

Ptree I would saw a blown gasser scales *less* than an atmospheric since you can dial in exactly what you want while an atmospheric will get fussy and start huffing at some point as you cut back on the air.

When I teach I usually have one of each side by side and the blown one is the one I use for projects needing atmosphere adjustment or a wider heat range.

Of course every gasser is different! Every Gasser is great; if a gasser gets wasted...etc

Thomas

Thomas P - Friday, 03/16/07 18:05:06 EST

hi,
i have been researching towards the end of making a damascus pocket knife, now, i can find pleanty of information on how to make the blade. however i cannot find and would really appreciate any guidence (or links!) on how to make the the mechanism and handle for a pocket knife as i cannot find any information on this.
thanks in advance!

Magnus - Friday, 03/16/07 18:49:08 EST

Does anyone have a good source of high quality 3/16" x 7/16" double-ended center drill bits? I use them to countersink screw holes in horseshoes. Thus, trying to drill a round hole in a rectangular nail hole. Last batch (Chinese) I got from Grizzly break every couple of shoes.

Ken Scharabok (Poor Boy) - Friday, 03/16/07 19:34:17 EST

Ken scharabok,
Instead of a center drill have you tried a countersink? Weldon" makes a very nice type that I think might hold up better. It looks like a solid double tapered cone, with a hole on angle. These are available in knock offs as well in kits that have 4 sizes. We used thousands of them to deburr holes at the valve shop, in sizes up to several inches. Granted these were round holes, but I think they are a tuffer steel than a center drill, which is usually hard and stiff to resist moving off center. Another thought is a multi edged countersink. Both of these have short shanks and should be more break resistant.
Hagemeyer has both.

ptree - Friday, 03/16/07 19:54:10 EST

Walt: I agree with VIcopper that You should just use the PW but make it easier to move. To answer Your question, get a big [3/4 to 1"] ball bearing and drop it on Your PW from about a foot up. Now drop the ball on mud from about a foot up. If You test an anvil and the ball rebounds like it does on Your PW it is a good hard steel anvil. If it rebounds like when dropped on mud it is soft cast iron. Actuaslly dropped on cast iron the ball will rebound a few inches, but You get the idea.

- Dave Boyer - Friday, 03/16/07 21:37:26 EST

Mangus: Take apart a cheap pocket knife by grinding the rivet heads off on 1 side and prying one side plate off, Now You can see exactly how it works and what You need to make.

- Dave Boyer - Friday, 03/16/07 21:40:10 EST

Ken S: The Weldon type countersinks with the hole are the best, they come in 82 and 90 deg. If You need the 60 deg from the center drill, but keep breaking the drill tip off You could grind the tip down to the 60 deg angle so You just have 60 deg. right out to the point. You need to grind carefully, but it will be stronger than the drill tip when done. If You are drilling the square hole out to round, get the "top USA quality" bits from MSC and see if they are any better. MSC offers 2-3 quality levels in cutting tools, the good ones should be the best ones available anywhere. Hagmyer should have a similar product if You are dealing with them.

- Dave Boyer - Friday, 03/16/07 21:50:35 EST

Just completed my third mirco forge with LOTS of improvements, including dual front doors (one vertical, and two variable horizontal sliding doors). Another trick I pulled is a roof vent with a funnel leading into the air intake to the TS-8000 for pre heating. This forge runs SUPER hot and really effiecent. Pics posted on my site as soon as I take them.

- Nippulini - Friday, 03/16/07 22:17:29 EST

Dear Guru I have a ornamental iron shop we do custom railings,gates and artwork. I am faced with a design I've never tried. The floor of a spanish style balcony we need to build is designed to have 1/4 x 1 1/2 flat bar basket weave, riveted at the intersections. I don't know exactly where to start, would you pre bend and punch all the flat bar and lay it in, or would you start by actually weaving it. If you have any input I would love to learn a new technique.

rick sanchez - Saturday, 03/17/07 01:04:02 EST

Walt,
I own one of those 55# cast iron POS. I picked it up on sale because I didn't know better at the time. Later I payed $12 for a 15# steel block that I still use for all of my small stuff. It has a seven inch rebound. The ASO has something like two or three. Does the Harbor Freight ad still extoll the vertues of using the ASO as a weight for gluing projects and counter weights? If you really want one you can have mine for the cost of shipping. I'm serious.

Will - Saturday, 03/17/07 01:14:57 EST

Will - Saturday, 03/17/07 01:24:08 EST

Hi, I am an amateur filmmaker writing a screenplay for a new film. I have no experience in blacksmithing, but I need to know, if it is possible for a blacksmith to take a 6" long x 3/8 inch wide spike/nail used during the time of Christ, such as the spikes used during his crucifixion, could that be taken and made into a 10�L x 1� W blade for a dagger, without actually melting down the iron, but instead hammering it flat? I have a reference pic of the kind of nail I am describing. [IMG]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y110/cyrax037/nail.jpg[/IMG]
Also, could an extension piece be added to the bottom of the blade, to form the tang?

Thanks in advance for any help provided!!

Leo - Saturday, 03/17/07 06:27:06 EST

Thank you. I have ordered from MSC. Went with their low grade for now and can bump up based on results.

Many of the horseshoe items I make are intended to be screwed to a wall. The 60 degree combination countersinks work well as it both leaves a screw hole and a recess for the screw head. First the 3/16" has to go through the rectangular nail hole and then the countersink area has to work within the nailhead crease. However, it is essentially twice having to drill a round hole in a square slot. It helps to drill the 3/16 through the back first, but doubles the time required to do each hole.

What is the internet address for weldon?

Could someone send me Mike's telephone number at hegemeyer? I know I have it here someplace but...

Walt: Small anvils (less than 100 lb) come up on eBay fairly often. Usually VULCANs. Cast iron body with a steel plate. They tend to be blocky. They can also be shipped by one of the ground delivery services.

Problem you will encounter is two different size hardy holes. Likely your PW has 1". A 70-lb anvil probably has 3/4".

Harbor Freight also sells a 110-lb Russian cast anvil for around $90. 1 1/8" hardy hole diagonal to horn. You can use 1" shafts in them with a shim.

Ken Scharabok (Poor Boy) - Saturday, 03/17/07 06:47:09 EST

The AnvilCAM IS LIVE

- guru - Saturday, 03/17/07 09:37:22 EST

Ptree, my situation mirrors yours, well, except for the car wrecks, plane crash, jumping out of perfectly good planes, ... But I have been doing some pretty intense keyboard banging over the past 25 years or so.

So maybe it wasn't a virus with me, just a coincidence that both elbows flared up at the same time.

- Marc - Saturday, 03/17/07 09:59:25 EST

My friend HOFI makes the point about diagonal peens, that pretty much matches what I said. People either think they are wonderfull and can't be without one, or don't feel they deserve space in the hammer rack.
I have many hammers to choose from in my collection. I use two the most. A 2.5# engineers hammer, with dressed faces, forged in the forge shop of the valve company I worked for. They got an outside job and forged perhaps 50 TONS of hammers from 1# to 8#. I was able to collect a number of the rejects. These were forged in presses, in 4 progressive impressions, including punching the eyes. The heat treat was a water squirt on the faces as they passed by on a conveyor, right off the press. Made from 1050.( Maybe 30 seconds per forgeing to forge from the billet!)
I also have a couple of diagonal peens, and I use the 2# as my next favorite hammer.
I had to move to different hammers and technigues after I damaged my elbows and shoulders from factors other than hammering. If I could only have the one hammer, the 2.5# engineers would be the choice. The 2# allowed my to continue hammering when I was sick, and could not stand and swing properly, as I had too much pain in my virus damaged joints. Those who saw my at hammer-ins from 2005 to about 2006 may remember that I had the elbow straps on, did not hammer on much of anything and especially in 2005, moved like a hundred year old.
I have tried the Hofi hammer on several occasions, and it is a very nice hammer. I can't hold it as HOFI instructs, due to some pretty bad damage in the knuckles of that hand. For my damaged body I use a long handle, swung from high, steady pace, and my ring and pinkie finger do most of the grip. My situation is pretty unique, and your hammer choices should match your needs.

Ptree - Saturday, 03/17/07 11:42:32 EST

Leo,
The Guru will have a better answer and more informed but it occurs to me that the iron nails the Romans used would not make a good blade because they were pretty soft. That doesn't mean that a smith could not take the nail and fold it into better metal and create a kind of damascus blade. As to adding a tang to a blade it could be done with a forge weld. Like I said. The Guru will have a better answer.
Will

Will - Saturday, 03/17/07 12:20:47 EST

Welding Chrome Plated Steel:

Hi All,

I was wondering if there are any issues with welding chrome plated steel? I assume you'd need to grind off the chrome at the weld joint, but what about fumes? I know welding around zinc is very dangerous from a fume standpoint.

I have an old weighlifting bar that I plan to cut up and weld short pieces on something so I can hang weight plates on it.

Let me know your thoughts please.

Mike

Mike Berube - Saturday, 03/17/07 12:40:55 EST

Weaving 1/4" flat bar-
If you want an actual flat floor, you need to make a U shaped bend in each flat bar at each intersection, each U being 1/8" deep and 1 1/2" wide.
This can easily be done cold in a hydraulic press, or hot, either by hand or with a fly press, or hydraulic press. I find that it doesnt work as well in the power hammer, unless you have one that is REALLY controllable for single hits, as double and triple hits leave a messy multiple impression.

Best way to make the die for this is with a milling machine and a ball end mill, so you can make the curved bottom die. Top die can just be a big piece of 1 1/2" x 1/2" or so flat bar.

However, this technique requires very accurate spotting of bends, measuring, and takes quite a while.
I recently made a bunch of 3 1/2" square wire mesh from 3/8" round stainless this way, hot on the hydraulic press, and it was pretty time consuming. I made my dies register the last bend in the other direction, so it was self spacing.
It turned out beautifully, but I dont know if you have budgeted the time to do this level of quality.

to just weave the 1/4" flat bar, without bending it, would require a pretty big grid spacing- it doesnt want to cinch up very tight. My guess would be at least 6" square holes, probably bigger, and that might not work if you have a 4" sphere rule in place.
Thinner flat bar would help- is this actually going to get walked on? Even if it is, 1/8" flat bar is probably more than strong enough, particularly if its a tight grid.
It gets very hard to hammer the grid pieces together for this type of weave, even with 1/8". I had to hammer my stainless together quite heartily, with a soft blow, even though it was all prebent.

I would definitely prepunch one of each intersection, but I might then weave it, and then drill the second piece- to try to align a few hundred holes in a weave like this, with them all prepunched, sounds nigh on impossible to me.

Consider clecos as well- these are springloaded clamps that are used in aircraft sheet metal, they go in a hole and hold the two sheets tightly together, installed and removed with special pliers, and available in 1/4" diameter. So you drill a hole, insert a cleco, drill a couple more a few holes away, and insert a couple more clecos, and it holds the weave in registration while you drill and rivet a bunch more. Then remove the clecos and rivet those holes.
You can get Clecos at www.ustool.com

- ries - Saturday, 03/17/07 13:11:26 EST

Will, folding and welding soft iron does not make it better. In fact it removes what carbon there might be and make also makes it red-short or brittle.

Folded steel starts with both hard steel and softer iron or other steel and the two are worked to create a material that has properties of both.

- guru - Saturday, 03/17/07 13:18:35 EST

Welding Chrome plated Steel:

I use stainless welding rod.

Zinc is not chrome.

Yes certain chrome compounds are toxic.

- guru - Saturday, 03/17/07 13:23:01 EST

Guru Chrome:

Why do you use stainless rod?

What I was getting at with the zinc was as an example of something that I would not weld without a LOT of ventiliation (zinc plated steel). I was assuming that I'd need real good ventilation with the chrome plate as well, but thought I'd ask.

Good quality chrome plating involves copper plate, nickel plate followed by chrome. I assume it is the nickel and chromium that are toxic?

Thanks,
Mike

Mike Berube - Saturday, 03/17/07 13:56:34 EST

Quality Control in the Steel Industry: Poppycock! It is due to unscrupulous distributors and vendors who have no hesitation to sell you what you want even if they don't have it. Most steel companies are ISO certified and meet AISI, API, ASTM, ASME requirments for the steels they produce. Once the steel leaves the mill, you are at the mercy of the wholesaler, distributor, vendor and salesperson, none of whom can even spell "metallurgy", to give you what you ask for. Just remember some ASTM specifications allow for a WIDE variation in chemistry and if you buy this material, you have to be smart enough to know how to deal with it. If you want a SPECIFIC chemistry, you have to order it and be prepared to pay more for it.

quenchcrack - Saturday, 03/17/07 14:33:53 EST

I weld chrome plate tools with SS rod because the SS rod has chrome and nickel in it, works well on tool steel and matches the chrome plate (somewhat) and does not rust. The flux on SS rods has Calcium flouride (flourite) in it which is an agressive flux that works with chrome and nickel.

- guru - Saturday, 03/17/07 14:48:25 EST

ries thank you for your input, I think the die you described will be my plan of attack. Im actually looking foreward to this new challenge and plan to spend the time to make a good fixture that will register off the last bend or even the hole. It will always come in handy for future use. Thanks again for your time in this matter.

rick sanchez - Saturday, 03/17/07 14:54:25 EST

Thanks Guru

Mike

Mike Berube - Saturday, 03/17/07 15:02:17 EST

Mike Berube,

A couple of belated thoughts on your drawing-out question. First, rebound isn't an end in itself. If you're using the same hammer and anvil and getting less rebound, the most likely explanation is that more energy's going into moving the hot steel. If that's what's happening, it's cause for celebration, not despair.

Second, others might disagree, but a 3/8 fuller sounds small for drawing out. I use a piece from a lug wrench (about 9/16 round), and it think that's kind of marginal. I suspect the extra local distortion you get with a small fuller isn't helpful for drawing. The big problem, though, is cold shuts. And if you end up having to fuller shallower and further apart to avoid them, you'll draw slower as well.

Mike BR - Saturday, 03/17/07 15:04:03 EST

Welding chrome.
In the heat of welding, chrome tends to become hexavalent chrome.(Chrome6) The amount of chrome in the plateing is however small compared to the chrome in the stainless rods.
When welding with Chrome bearing metals, local exhaust, that pulls the fume away from the breathing zone is a very good idea. The OSHA standard for exposure to hexavalent chrome was just this year dropped by a factor of ten.

Hexavalent chrome is a carcinogen. No ifs, no buts. The EU has pretty much banned any Hex chrome, often used as an anti-corrosion treatment, and industry is scrambling to get engineering controls in place to meet the new standard.

Many of the OSHA exposure standards were set in the 70's, and every time NIOSH tries to set a new lower standard it is fought tooth and nail. The science on Hex chrome is such that the permissible exposure standard has been reset.

Ptree - Saturday, 03/17/07 19:18:39 EST

I would add to what Mike said about rebound, that it is unlikely that your anvil stand is absorbing the rebound. True, a wimpy stand will add nothing to the anvil's effectiveness, but it won't take away any. It can't. The anvil has the same mass regardless of the stand.

Now, a really heavy and rigid stand with a lot of mass directly under the anvil, and with the anvil very, very tightly affixed to that mass, can make a small anvil more effective, to a degree. If you took a 200# block of steel the same size as the foot of your Nimba and then welded the anvil to it with a full penetration weld, you wound then have a 200# heavier anvil, and it would be that much more effective at resisting hammer blows.

The reason you're experiencing more rebound from the 3/8 than from the 5/8 is probably that the 3/8 is being drivendown to the anvil deeply enough to losea lot more local heat directly under the hammer, thus getting harder and transmitting the anvil's rebound better. The 5/8 willbe thicker and have more mass to old heat and will thererfore still be softer at the end of the blow, returning less energy. I hope that makes sense.

Personally, I use the Hofi hammering technique (at least as I interpret it from Hofi's video) and when I need to move metal in a hurry I use the "edge" of the hammer face as a top fuller, so to speak. I don't use the anvil horn as that is a tapered fuller and increases distortion. A properly contoured Hofi style hammer will move metal remarkably well once you learn how to use it the way it was designed to be used. If you use it like any other hammer you're wasting a lot of its potential.

My hammer is a 3.6# Hofi, and my anviil is a 450# Nimba. I can draw out the rein on a pair of tongs in about four or five heats if I'm fresh and really hustling, using 5/8" round bar. I generally use 3/4" suare for tongs though, and I can draw the rein out in one heat...on the power hammer. (grin)

vicopper - Saturday, 03/17/07 19:26:38 EST

Guru,
When I said "better metal" what I meant and should have said was steel. I said you would have a better answer. I didn't mean to step on any toes.
Will

Will - Saturday, 03/17/07 20:49:30 EST

Hammering,

I don't use a diagonal peen, and don't intend to do so.

Re Hofi's response, when referring to "faster", I was talking about a too rapid rhythm, not velocity.

Furthermore, when the rhythm is too fast while double-striking, the striker doesn't have enough time to lift his hammer high enough, and he starts reaching and pecking at the work. I've seen instances where the journeyman was hitting as hard or harder than the striker, because the rhythm was too fast.

The striker should be hitting harder than the signaler; otherwise, why use a heavier sledge hammer?

Frank Turley - Saturday, 03/17/07 23:12:23 EST

I myself prefer a 2.3333333 oz. straight peen hammer for the lesser wind resistance it presents to the ambient air around the anvil. This may seem insignificant to the untutored eye, but across a long day, it adds up. Yessirree, Bob, every little bit adds up to that all-important edge so vitally necessary for success in today's highly competitive smithing.

Miles Undercut - Saturday, 03/17/07 23:19:46 EST

I know, I know, what, you are asking, exactly, does the estimable brother forge with a teency-weency 2.33333333 oz. hammer? I wish I could reveal that, and someday, when our enemies are vanquished, I hope perhaps I might, but for the nonce I am sworn to secrecy.

Miles Undercut - Saturday, 03/17/07 23:25:00 EST

Leo; what Will doesn't take into account was that most blades in the first century AD would have been plain wrought iron; just like the nails.

Blacksmithing is a constant volume technique so as long as the volume of iron necessary is in the spikes you can forge a blade; Shoot I could forge a blade out of iron wire if I had enough of it---real wrought iron forge welds very nicely indeed!

Note that this blade would not be a very good one when compared with those a few centuries later when heat treating and steel both came together; but for that time it would be "run of the mill".

So figure out how much iron is needed for the blade and how much iron is in the spikes and allow a bit for scaling and grinding.

Since real wrought iron is easy to weld, welding more iron on for a tang would be simple---and was often done in later times when they did use steel which was a much more expensive material and wasted in a tang.

Thomas

Thomas Powers - Sunday, 03/18/07 00:00:52 EST

Mike BR

Rebound - I agree with your assessment here. But there were a few things, that together led me to believe there was a problem:
- Hitting harder did not seem to move the metal any more/faster
- The harder I hit the less rebound I got
- The next morning I noticed that the anvil stand had walked by more than a foot during the previous day's (~2 hours) session. I was only hitting down on the anvil during that period, no bending work over the side that might explain the walking.

The first 2 led me to believe I did not have enough hammer, but when I discovered the third it led me to believe that my anvil stand was yielding under the heavy blows.

To your second point... After yesterday I am in agreement with you. At Frank Turley's suggestion above I tried drawing out over the base of the horn. MUCH better results.

Thanks for the food for thought,
Mike

Mike Berube - Sunday, 03/18/07 05:57:18 EST

Ptree - Welding Chrome,

Thanks for the very good information, I will take heed.

Mike

Mike Berube - Sunday, 03/18/07 06:00:20 EST

vicopper

Your explanation about 3/8 vs. 5/8 seems plausible to me, thanks. I've recently noticed that as the 5/8 gets thinner (and wider) that my rebound seems to return. This would be consistent with your explanation.

When you say the "edge" of the Hofi hammer, do you mean top, bottom or side?

Regarding your discussion of the anvil stand... If you had 2 theoretical stands, Stand A, which allows the anvil to be pushed down under heavy blows, and Stand B which did not allow the anvil to be pushed down under heavy blows wouldn't you get less rebound on Stand A?
This assumes that the mass of the anvil is small enough that a heavy blow would displace the anvil enough that the stiffness of the stands (A and B) would come into play.
Is that even possible with a 2.5lb hammer and 120lb anvil?

Thanks,
Mike

Mike Berube - Sunday, 03/18/07 06:17:23 EST

Material Bending Up instead of Down!? Help please.

Hi All,

Last night I was making a "hold fast" and was trying to curve the spring portion over the horn. I turned it upside down and put the "up" curve in the end of it successfully, but when I flipped it rightside up to put the "down" curve (between the shank and midway on the spring part) I got frustrating results.
I started with the midpoint (between shank and foot) across the horn and started hammering off center (far side of horn) while moving my hand (holding the shank) closer to the horn with each blow, essentially bending the piece over the horn a little bit with each blow. I believe this should have caused the piece to curve down "around the horn", but instead the piece was curving UP. I am guessing this is from inertia.

What am I doing wrong?

Thanks for your input,
Mike

Mike Berube - Sunday, 03/18/07 06:34:37 EST

What is agood source of design infomation for utility trailer design ?

The online vendors have diagrams with only alpha notations for dimensions for their tandem axle designs. No conversion tables are provided so far as I can discover.

Amazon has a book by M M Smith but no table of contents is offered for review. Any comments comments on this book or sugestions of other sources will be very helpful.

My main need is the geometry of connection between the equalizer bar and the link to spring connection. I already have most of the required hardware but am reluctant to start fabrication before I locate a reliable source.

Dan - Sunday, 03/18/07 09:21:57 EST

Dan,
Northern Hydraulics sells plans for many style trailers, from light single axle to heavy goosenecks. I have not bought any of these so can not offer any thoughts on their quality.
I have built several trailers, and pretty much based my designs on what I saw in comercial trailers. I used the comercials to get a ratio for tongue to axles etc. I no longer build trailers for sale, or work on any except mine. SWMBO has ruled that the liability outweighs the profits. Since SWMBO is an Attorney, who worked for many years in product liability defense, I must obey, I must obey, I must obey:)

ptree - Sunday, 03/18/07 09:59:56 EST

Miles, I too have a high speed, tiny, polished hammer with almost no wind resistance. About an oz. I call it a jewelers planishing hammer. Used on silver and gold the results are quite nice. I don't think you will be cast out of the brotherhood of real men who move iron for using it, as long as you use the correct technique. :)

ptree - Sunday, 03/18/07 10:04:08 EST

Mike Berube --

If you had a stand that was stiff enough that the anvil couldn't be pushed down under heavy blows, you'd have an anvil with an effective mass equal to that of the Earth. That's not possible, of course. Any stand is going to flex some (not to mention the floor underneath it) and even the anvil itself compresses to some degree under the blow.

If you ran the number for momentum and kinetic energy based on your hammer and anvil weights, you'd find that only a few percent of the energy in your hammer blow can end up as kinetic energy in your anvil, even ignoring any resistance from the stand.

I can't back this part up with numbers, but I suspect that even the stiffest stand (short of the steel block VICopper described) mostly serves to arrest the downward motion of the anvil after the hammer's already bounced off. A stiffer stand will stop the anvil more quickly and bounce around less, but I doubt it will do much to make your blows more efficient.

If I followed your bending question correctly, curving a piece across the horn as you described will tend to make both a convex-up curve across the horn, and a convex-down curve between the horn and the far end of the piece. As you implied, the piece will rock over the horn as you hit it, the inertia of the far end will try to hold it in place as the rest of the piece rocks.

Assuming your piece was tapered, the thinner end extending off into space probably bent more easily that the thicker part that was supported on the horn. Bending the thicker part of a tapered piece is always tricky. Holding the thin end and hitting the shank as it extends on the far side of the horn might help some. Making sure the part you want to bend is *hot* and the rest of the piece isn't helps even more. You could also consider making the bend in the vise, into a swage block, or with the shank stuck in the hardy or pritchel hole.

Mike BR - Sunday, 03/18/07 10:25:17 EST

I am a New Mexico architect working on exterior signage for my church which is on the state historic register. Our committee is in search of hand wrought letter styles and signage that would be historic and approiate for our New Mexico Territorial Revival Style, John Gaw Meem designed church, built in the late 40's. We have had limited success searching archives. We were hoping that there may be references available for hand wrought letter styles, individual or grouped and wall mounted. Also monument and small free standing directional signage all of forged wrough iron. Any suggested references or resources?

Richard Schalk - Sunday, 03/18/07 10:43:01 EST

Mike Berube,

Start on the end. Feed the stock forward, and hit incrementally in mid-air beyond the horn. The horn doesn't give the curve; the horn is a support. The leverage blow beyond the horn in mid-air gives the curve. Inertia recurves do occur; take it into account when forging.
SIGN UP FOR ONE OF MY CLASSES.

Miles and ptree. I have a dink chasing hammer with a thin haft. I'm told the wrist is used to a large degree with the index finger on top. I don't forge with it, tho'.

Frank Turley - Sunday, 03/18/07 10:43:34 EST

Northern Hydraulics became Northern Tool and Equipment some years ago. They do still sell trailer blueprints for about 27 styles. 800-556-7885 or www.northerntool.com.

I have purchased from NT for a number of years and have been very satisfied with service (U.S. call center) and products for price. Quality seems a WHOLE lot better than Harbor Freight.

2007 Master Catalog is a hardcover book with slick paper pages. Arrived in cardboard container. Had to have been printed in China to be able to do that cost effectively.

Ken Scharabok (Poor Boy) - Sunday, 03/18/07 10:55:11 EST

Frank Turley

Thanks for the tips.

I would LOVE to sign up for one of your classes, but you are in New Mexico right? I am in New Hampshire. Alas I have a day job, and if I were to burn 3 weeks of vacation time to fly across the country to learn blacksmithing I think my Wife and kids would KILL me. :-)

I suppose my hammering just past the center-line on the horn is what was giving my curves the look of a section of the surface of a cone, right?

Thanks again Frank,
Mike

Mike Berube - Sunday, 03/18/07 11:24:49 EST

Mike BR

Thanks for the discussion about the anvil stand. I think I am going to get over the stand instability thing and just use it.

Thanks also for confirming my suspicions about the bending issue.

Mike

Mike Berube - Sunday, 03/18/07 11:31:56 EST

Curving on the horn: There is a bit of art to this. Many smiths do that type of bending in a fork in the hardy hole. Yes, inertia can do some interesting things. I bend an of things over the edge of the anvil that need an inside curve. As you work the extended material wants to stay straight so it ends up parallel and below the anvil face, the curve the oposite of what you would think.

For a hold fast I would not use the hammer. I would heat the work, hold it firmly, swing and strike IT over the anvil horn. Then the inertia swaps the piece around the horn smoothly. This is a very common blacksmithing technique.

- guru - Sunday, 03/18/07 12:15:10 EST

Richard Schalk,

Our Frank Turley is the man to speak to. He and Marc Simmons wrote a book titled, Southwestern Colonial Ironwork, The Spanish blacksmithing tradition from Texas to California.

However, I think you are looking for something that does not exist. Wrought letters were rarely used except for dates and occasional owner's initial (single) often affixed to a chimney as part of a tie bar anchor. These were fairly rare and would come under folk art. Signage with wrought letters is also quite rare and it would more often be in the form of a stylized monogram designed by the owner or taken from a jeweler's engraving. This would likely be representing a jewelery business or some very high class business.

If you want wrought letters made of the correct style you would start with a lettering style or font common to the time and locality. THEN you would let a blacksmith modify the font as needed to make it manufacturable by the methods of the time. But there is a good chance that this type of thing IF it had existed would have been cut from plate using a chisel then dressed by filing and hammering the edges to produce a chamfer. Texture would have been up to the customer but hammered texture was generally considered bad craftsmanship by smiths. If texture WAS applied it would be of uniform coverage (no pock pock ball peen marks as was common in 1950's trash ironwork). Much of what folks THINK is wrought texture is the result of years of rust.

- guru - Sunday, 03/18/07 12:37:02 EST

ptree-- Bless you! I feel soooo relieved. Nay, validated. And perhaps even a bit vindicated. But did I mention the lateral spoilers on my hammer that open when I exceed 320 fps, so as to minimize the Venturi-induced backdraft? Betcha don't have those little beauties on your planishing hammer. And the de-gravitizer that blocks the gravitational pull of the anvil, reducing effort needed for the lift on the return? And I won't even mention the pre-heater built into the haft. Ooops, I just did....

Miles Undercut - Sunday, 03/18/07 12:39:21 EST

Blacksmith Painting/Print for Memorial

My father, an amazing blacksmith, died recently. A memorial fund was established for our local public library and for the high school library. The school is using the funds to buy books to supplement the welding and shop classes. The public library would like to use a portion of their money to buy a framed print for one of the large blank walls in their beautiful new building.

One of the options being considered is a painting or print of a blacksmith. Googling various combinations of blacksmith art, blacksmith painting, blacksmith print, anvil.. has not resulted in finding any that are quite right. He never liked horses and most seem to depict someone with horses and horseshoes.

I�m hoping some of you have favorite paintings you can recommend so I can present options to my family for consideration. If you could post title and artist I�d be so pleased or send a website for a local or regional artist who has worked with this subject, it would be very appreciated.

Sarah Hahn - Sunday, 03/18/07 12:43:40 EST

Guru

Nice tip on whacking the work over the horn, thanks.

Mike

Mike Berube - Sunday, 03/18/07 12:48:59 EST

Sarah Hahn, I believe that Anvilfire had a lithograph of an industrial blacksmith shop, titled

- ptree - Sunday, 03/18/07 13:50:39 EST

Sarah Hahn, I believe that Anvilfire had a lithograph of an industrial blacksmith shop, titled "The last anvilmakers". Another possible source is A company called Finkle & Sons. They are a speciality die steel maker, and publish some great old photo's in their calender.
I also have a sister who paints murals and fine art, who could perhaps help.

ptree - Sunday, 03/18/07 13:51:06 EST

Richard for a '40's SWC revival style why not look at branding irons for letters?

Sarah, what about Goya's "The Forgers"?

Miles, I thought the teepee you built over your forge was keeping the fumes away from yourself---better check it for a birds nest.

Thomas

Thomas P - Sunday, 03/18/07 13:56:51 EST

Nathan Green�s �The Last Anvil Makers� is under consideration in part because of the amount of time Dad spent with Richard Postman�s book on his lap.

Someone also suggested the Leon Engelen �Blacksmith� It is great because it shows a pretty grimey shop. The odd thing is, the fellow not looking a bit like Dad doesn�t bother me as much as the anvil not looking like a Trenton.

Sarah Hahn - Sunday, 03/18/07 14:38:38 EST

Thomas P.-- sorry, Bub, you and Jodie Foster are just out of the loop down there at the Very Large Array gazing into the nether galaxies. Here in the shadow of Los Alamos, we are pushing back the frontiers of knowledge. The anti-gravitator that lessens the anvil's tug on my micro-hammer is just the tip of the iceberg. Wish I could divulge more details to you, but, alas, ultra-secret clearance is required, and loose lips sink ships....

Miles Undercut - Sunday, 03/18/07 17:33:04 EST

Miles, The large head on my tiny hammer, works as an aerodynamic vortex generator on the down swing and a blunt body drag inducer to control the upswing which otherwise would be uncontrollable since my tiny anvil is made of the increadiblely springy unobtainiam. And the birds nest should be about to catch fire by now.

Ptree - Sunday, 03/18/07 19:31:20 EST

I have been forging metal for just over a year now. A good friend of mine is a cabinet maker and I would like to offer him a set of Wood chisel of different size and shape.

Should I use A36 mild steel or something stronger. Any book or DVD on the subject would be appreciated

Thanks

Dan - Sunday, 03/18/07 21:23:29 EST

Sarah Hahn: Would they also consider a blacksmith statue? From time to time some very nice ones show up on eBay. Here is one I rather like listed now: 5382817367.

Just periodically do a search on blacksmith statue.

Ken Scharabok (Poor Boy) - Sunday, 03/18/07 22:10:26 EST

Dan: A36 is a poor choice. If You buy tool steel O1 or A2 would be good choices, if You use scrounged materials worn out good quality files are the best.

- Dave Boyer - Sunday, 03/18/07 22:13:02 EST

Mike Berube: I built a Hoffi type stand, that is a 2" thick steel plate and 3 legs of 2"x4"x1/4" tubing. At 145# it is pretty substantial altho not quite as good as VIcopper's hypothetical stand. The [158#] anvil sits on it without rocking and is bolted down. This probably doesn't work as effectively as a 300# anvil, but I think that stand probably adds some effective mass.

- Dave Boyer - Sunday, 03/18/07 22:21:55 EST

Dan, get a good grade of tool steel if you want to make a set of wood chisels for your friend - A36 will not hold up and harden adequately. I'd suggest O1, W1 or equivalent, also any plain carbon steels from 1070 up should work, though I wouldn't go above 1095.

- Gavainh - Sunday, 03/18/07 22:33:19 EST

Dear guru,
isit advicable to make use of the galvanized materials in the tetra chloride storage area since it is more corrosive in nature.is there possibilities to make use of any other corrossion resistant materials.

ezhil - Monday, 03/19/07 01:59:19 EST

I don't understand the above discussion regarding hammer velocity etc etc. I have studied enough physics to know that kinetic energy, E = 1/2 m v^2 and it's good for you hammer to have lots of it. Furthermore, for a fixed mass, the only option is to move it faster if you are looking to impart more energy into your target. There is no other variable.
Energy in this case, comes from one place & one place only - you. So you can try to get your hammer up to high velocity over a short swing - requiring a huge acceleration & hence force exerted on your joints, since F = m a.
Alternatively you can lift the hammer high, giving it large potential energy which will be converted to kinetic energy. In addition you are allowing more space in which to accelerate your hammer to a large velocity, requiring less force to achieve a given velocity & hence energy.
So, given that Frank Turley's and Uri Hofi's description both use large, sensible, over the head swings, the only difference is the ergonomics of the movement. Is this correct?
Excuse my ignorance, but I've seen lots of mention and mathematical derivations and talk of 'systems' on the web and am confused. Since there's only one option for increasing energy with a fixed mass hammer = more speed, then really the only discussion point can be around the ergonomics of the stroke?
Having said that, if you're unable to lift a big hammer above your head it is clearly better to use a smaller hammer, but making sure you lift it high and swing fast.

andrew - Monday, 03/19/07 02:18:42 EST

please note, it would seem I've used the term 'faster' in the opposite sense to frank in my post. I am referring to hammer velocity, whereas he was referring to strike-rate.

andrew - Monday, 03/19/07 02:32:14 EST

Thanks for the info!! Just knowing that blades COULD be formed was VERY helpful, thank you very much!!!!

Leo - Monday, 03/19/07 04:00:53 EST

??? tetrachloride There are a number of these compounfs but the only one I know is carbon tetrachloride a liquid solvent that used to be used for dry cleaning and i snow banned for most uses.

Titanium tetrachloride is a very hazardous liquid that reacts violently with water expanding 1600 times and creating a smoke screen.

Both the above are stored in glass, carbon steel or specific plastic containers.

You must be more specific about what chemical you are dealing with. Start with the MSDS and ask the manufacrturer about reactivity. Zinc is a much more reactive metal than iron/steel and that is how it protects steel. In a chemical storage area a reactive metal may not be a good idea.

- guru - Monday, 03/19/07 07:58:26 EST

Dan; if you use files make sure the teeth are totally removed before re-forging them into chisels. You might look into making a set of mortoising chisels as they are easy to make and hard to find at a decent price.

Thomas

Thomas P - Monday, 03/19/07 11:05:00 EST

Ptree-- I like the aerodynamic vortex generator and have ordered three of these whirly-swirlies for delivery in time for Easter, in delicate hues of apricot, magenta and cerise. Unobtainium suppliers locally uncan deliver necessary materiel, alas. However, the anti-gravitator will compensate. Have hit upon (haha, that's a pun, son!) major technique breakthrough, fixing work in leg vise and smiting with anvil held upside down. Delivers SIGNIFICANTLY heavier blows, accomplishing major improvements in production throughput.

Miles Undercut - Monday, 03/19/07 11:10:03 EST

Hi I'm creating some (aluminium) wall hanger swords for a play and was wondering if anyone knew if there are any metals that when struck together will spark beside magnisium (too volitile, weak and expensive). Thanyou very much.

PropMinion - Monday, 03/19/07 12:03:14 EST

PropMinion, Zirconium is quite good for this. It is the color and has similar strength as mild steel but is pyrophoric in small bits and chips. It is used in the Nuclear industry because of its it low radiation opacity (it is transparent to neutrons). Containers of chips of this material are dangerous as they catch fire easily and are prone to self ignition when moisture is present.

Ferrocerium an alloy of iron cerium and rare earth elements is the lighter "flint" that is not really flint. It was invented by Dr. Carl Auer von Welsbach (1858-1929). An edge of this would make a Jim-Dandy sparking sword. . .

- guru - Monday, 03/19/07 13:22:50 EST

Of course *real* swords don't tend to spark when in use.

Hollywood which loves to make things not act like they do in real life gets around this by using electrified blades to get sparks---I do not suggest you go that route unless you *REALLY* *KNOW* what you are doing as electrocuting the cast has a bad effect on subsequent performances

Thomas

Thomas P - Monday, 03/19/07 13:52:57 EST

Gentlemen, This is my first attempt to post on this wonderful forum, although I have been reading and studying for over 1 year. I am currently operating a Metal Art business using primarily "Combined Metal Teqnique"(fancy speak for Welded Sculpture)I have been using Blacksmith Teqniques for a couple of months.Currently using a 50# LG
for my power work but am looking at 2 different Beaudry 300# hammers for purchase.The asking price is $6500 plus shipping.All I have read here indicates these are a very good hammer.If both hammers are in equal shape should I pursue straight or combination dies. I would sure appreciate your guidance.P.S.I will surely post the contact info for the hammer I don't purchase here for all.
Thanks for your great site!
Johnny Woolsey St.George,Ut.

Johnny Woolsey - Monday, 03/19/07 13:59:00 EST

Electrified blades. I've never seen this. But I've seen the as-shot film and the added effects. No sparks, dull wacks and an occasional "ouch, oh dang!" from the actors. Add, music, ringing of swords and CGI sparks and there is lots of excitement. . .

Big Hammer: Johnny, depending on the type of forging you do there are dies and there are dies. Most old factory and user made combination dies are fairly worthless except for creating heavy fullered texture and doing rough heavy drawing.

Modern combination dies have a wide square flat on one end and a narrow flat on the other. Both should have rounded edges. Actually the edge section should be elliptical with the long axis on the die face. This creates a range of smooth tapers that can be drawn. The back side of the die can be less radiused than the front but it too should be radiused. The narrow section is used for isolating stock and forging shoulders. It also acts like a narroe fuller. The wide section has a significant flat for smoothing and doing tooling work.

See the dies on the Big BLU page. Note however that these are sized for a 100-150 pound hammer and will not work in a 300. Their dies are also made of accurately heat treated S7 which will take much more abuse than lesser steels. Dies such as their crown and fullering/texturing dies will not hold up made of anything less than top grade tools steel.

Beaudry's are good hammers, beautifully built. However like all old hammers that are no longer manufactured any maintenance or repair is on you.

On a 300 Beaudry the factory combo dies had about a 3x5 flat and a 3x2 or 3x3 fullering surface. These OR the flat dies will do fine. If you want dies that really produce free hand work fast then you will need custom dies.

- guru - Monday, 03/19/07 14:33:45 EST

Thomas P, Buy one week I mean at shaker village Thru the day I have about 4 hours of interrupted forge time I constantly have to stop and help with the farm there and give tours of farm I also am not very good at multi tasking I tend to stop what I'm doing to explain what I'm doing and it eats time not that I'm complaining. Now at work I have a 120# mounted on a 100# poplar stump 6" in the ground at home its in the old mother in-law house I made a open box 30" by 30" by 8" deep I have a 150# emerson anvil and a big ol 110# oak stump its around 23" tall I'm 6'2", I filled the box with sand about 4" and set the stump, then I set the anvil on the stump and traced the bottom of the anvil out with a felt tip marker on the top of the stump, And last I got my chisel set and cut out the trace I made about an inch deep so the anvil sits snug I can also move every thing which is why I did it that way, understand too that I'm like one of the worlds biggest procrastinator's. Making the box for the anvil to sit in took me 30 min, the stump now I was beeing picky had to find THE stump that took me almost a month, then the chisel work an hour or two. I like my anvil setup better than work but I like the forge at work better than mine, mine has poor ventilation realy smokey somtimes specialy when the wind blows the smoke back thru the windows. the sword and knives after what youve told me, I didnt heat enough and I do waste a lot of time drawing a 6-7" wide leaf spring down to the size I work with and thats where the time goes cause once I have the 1by1 or 2by2 that I like working with making the knife takes about 45 mins depending on the amount of mistakes and what not. now the hammers I have a short handled 3 lb. mini sledge a 3 1/2 lb. cross peen a 3 lb. ball peen, also an 8 a 10 and 15 lb. sledges the eight pond sledge I use to one handed when I feel like showing of a bit, not very effective though so I wouldnt reccomend it. I have some cresent wrenches visegrips and no tongs "23 failed atempts" but I wouldnt call them tongs. I kinda cheat I leave at least an extra 10" for a handle and a very good welding glove I've made about 30 knives like this and it seems to work I'd use tongs exept you know, I tend also to use the tongs at work instead of making some like I know I should.

Aaron B.H - Monday, 03/19/07 14:48:34 EST

Guru - Thankyou very much! That should help alot. If you have anysuggestions on how exactly I would attach said Ferrocerium edge that would also be helpful.

Thomas P./Guru As for special effects and electrified blades though they sound fun this is a live stage play so that wouldn't really help.

PropMinion - Monday, 03/19/07 14:50:56 EST

When I was younger, my brother made a Tesla coil. We did the "normal" things with it, like light fluorescent bulbs from 10-ft away, but then we got creative and wired each end of the secondary to car antennas. Pretty cool sparks from that!

--Marc

- Marc - Monday, 03/19/07 15:46:12 EST

Marc - Well thats rather amusing but not really helpful. :)

PropMinion - Monday, 03/19/07 16:13:59 EST

Andrew,

There's more to it than just kinetic energy. I think of hammer hitting the stock and accelerating it, then the stock hitting the anvil.

With a small hammer and heavy stock, the hammer will give up most of its energy just accelerating the stock (the momentum of the two combined will be the same as the original momemtum of the hammer, but the kinetic energy of the system will be much lower than the hammer's was). This means that a small hammer will tend to deform the stock mostly at the surface.

A big hammer hitting small stock will retain most of its energy through the initial collision, and expend most of it in squishing the stock against the anvil. Thus, a big hammer tends to work the stock all the way through.

Also your hand and arm have significant mass. Reducing the hammer below a certain size won't reduce the total mass your muscles have to accelerate much, so the added velocity won't be enough to offset the lower hammer mass. And with a bigger hammer, you're storing more energy just lifting it over your head in the first place.

A bigger hammer is better for working bigger stock. A smaller hammer is just the ticket for upsetting or planishing, when you *want* to work just the surface. I suspect the biggest hammer you can comfortably use is most efficient for general work.

Mike BR - Monday, 03/19/07 17:53:22 EST

Guru,
Thanks for the information.If any would like info. on the other 300# Beaudry feel free to contact me at
johnny.woolsey@stocksupply.com

Johnny Woolsey - Monday, 03/19/07 18:28:56 EST

Sword sparklers,
One way to do this,,, Buy several packets of flints for a Zippo type lighter.
With aluminum 'prop' swords, The edges should be awfully blunt anyway, So drill a series of small holes along the sword edge then insert the flint bits flush along edge of the blade. I expect some kind of urethane glue would also be needed.
The "opponents" sword would need to be made of steel, But its edge would need to be somewhat sharp, That is ground to a square profile. NOT sharpened like a regular sword blade.
(I assume you have theatrical experience and are not a complete idiot:-)

With GOOD practice and rehersals go for glancing and scraping blows.
One should be able to scrape the steel edge along the flint studded aluminum edge. (or vice-versa)The steel will scrape off aluminum as well as the ferro ceramic flints too.

Of course this is still HAZARDOUS as either blade could hurt somebody if a practiced manouver is missed.
Also, This will produce flying off particles, Eye protection advised too.

- Sven - Monday, 03/19/07 18:50:25 EST

Sven - Thankyou very much. This sounds like it should work well. And don't fret my actors are not idiots and will follow directions well. I appriciate the information.

PropMinion - Monday, 03/19/07 19:38:02 EST

New Mexico Territorial Style

I have written a note to the architect, Richard Schalk, about doing a little homework for him. The style is a contrived revival which uses adobe and sometimes "vigas", cylindrical log roof beams. One often sees a red brick parapet and windows with a white painted peak at the top, the latter a mild suggestion of "Greek Revival". It is a pleasant appearing look. I agree with Jock that there probably would be nothing to copy in terms of signage from that time, that it would be something worked out by discussion and likely resulting in a "new" design and execution.

Frank Turley - Monday, 03/19/07 19:39:34 EST

Sven, I rather imagined the little cylinders of Ferrocerium crimped into a groove milled into the edge of the "blade". Alternated with pieces of steel two blades might spark a pretty high percentage of the time. . .

- guru - Monday, 03/19/07 19:40:33 EST

I thought of a milled groove also, But drilling a series of holes may be alot easier vs- milling a groove

- Sven - Monday, 03/19/07 19:47:13 EST

I wonder if you could get away with splitting the sword lengthwise, and placing "flints" on one side of the split and strikers on the other. The idea would be that the two halves would work against each other when the sword flexed. Of course, the sparks wouldn't be limited to the point of contact, and a hard enough swing might strike sparks even without contact.

Mike BR - Monday, 03/19/07 21:42:30 EST

Attn.: person seeking smithing painting-- take a peek at Goya's The Forge. (Google same for thumbnail.) The Net abounds in others. Rembrandt's The Goldsmith ain't blacksmithing but, wowee, for someone smiting on an anvil....

Miles Undercut - Monday, 03/19/07 23:57:03 EST

Texas Chainsaw Massacre (the remake) had over 2 dozen saws, most of which had the chains removed. They mocked up a neat little grinder in a few of them with old files on cams, so when Leatherface whacked it on stuff the file would push into the grindstone and voila! Sparks assunder!

- Nippulini - Tuesday, 03/20/07 00:43:17 EST

When I tried to find the Goya's The Forge I came up with hundreds of articles on forgery. Be sure to put the entire string "Goya's The Forge" in quotes as shown.

- guru - Tuesday, 03/20/07 08:01:04 EST

Sarah Hahn,
Hidey. How ya doin'? I googled one of my favorite prints, "Forging the Anchor", under Images, and came up a likeness. I don't know however, where to get a full sized copy. I have seen it, and it is approximately 9" x 11". The young boy, the "fireman", has a big grin on his face.

Frank Turley - Tuesday, 03/20/07 08:53:37 EST

Sarah Hahn:
My personal favorite (and one that pops up on the Anvilfire homepage now and again) is Jefferson Davis Chalfant, "The Blacksmith." My aunt had a program that would convert pictures into counted cross-stitch and was going to replicate it for me one time, unfortunately it would not have turned out correct because of the general darkness at the top of the image :( But, it would make a neat life-size mural.
-Aaron @ the SCF

thesandycreekforge - Tuesday, 03/20/07 09:09:07 EST

can anyone tell me if there is a good farrier school around texas anywhere? or where a good farrier school is?
thank you

hold strong
Son

- son - Tuesday, 03/20/07 09:10:39 EST

son: Contact anvil@anvilmag.com. The Anvil magazine covers the farrier trade and they can likely provide a reference to you.

Ken Scharabok (Poor Boy) - Tuesday, 03/20/07 11:53:58 EST

Sir,

I've no question, only a compliment on your remarkable site. Your summary response to the FAQ about how to make a sword is worthy of U.S. Grant, whom James McPherson once described as a man whose instructions simply could not be misunderstood.

Sincerely,

Gordon M. Strauss

Gordon M. Strauss - Tuesday, 03/20/07 13:33:54 EST

Thank you kind Sir. We are constantly writing and adding to our articles. The swords article is a long way from finished. While I have done all the starter projects (even wooden models) it was many many years (decades) ago. The intent is to illustrate those parts so that the reader fully understands the point of the exercises.

- guru - Tuesday, 03/20/07 15:54:05 EST

Aaron - Interesting: the Google Image search comes up with exactly one hit on the Chalfant painting, the digital image of which is signed with our guru's copyright notice for the digital image.

Maybe Jock could help Sarah find a good print on that one. . . Or have a display-size ink jet or dye sublimation print made. . . (for an appropriate fee, of course. Assuming that he has a high-resolution scan on hand.)

John Lowther - Tuesday, 03/20/07 16:06:10 EST

son look up oklahoma state horse shoeing school

jake - Tuesday, 03/20/07 16:08:19 EST

Guru,

Since some old anvils were made with steel faces on cast iron bodies, would it be possible to turn a cast iron ASO into a usable anvil by hard facing it with an arc welder?

Matt - Tuesday, 03/20/07 16:40:11 EST

i agree with miles on the velocity thing.

coolhand - Tuesday, 03/20/07 16:44:00 EST

Matt,
to make a good anvil out of a cast iron anvil, you would need a continuous weld the entire area of the face, if not , theres no reason to, because it wont help at all,

historicaly, steel faced anvils with cast iron bodies had a steel face in the bottom of the mold, and when the anvil was cast, it was fused to the face, then hardened and tempered,

aside from that, it doesnt work all that well,

Cameron - Tuesday, 03/20/07 17:08:59 EST

Also, when welding, you would need to preheat, and slowly cool, lest the cast iron crack,

also, most cast iron aso's are made in an anvil shape, not really a useable anvil, theyre just the easiest shape to cast that is "Close" to what an anvil looks like

Cameron - Tuesday, 03/20/07 17:10:59 EST

coolhand-- bless you! I totally forgot to mention that on the downward swing, the anti-gravitator shuts off and the gravitational enhancer kicks in, until impact, so as to beef up the attraction of the anvil for the hammer, increasing the foot-pounds of each blow.

Miles Undercut - Tuesday, 03/20/07 17:27:53 EST

I have heard that there is a formula called the "Clackson Scroll Formula" for working out the length of metal you need to make a scroll of any particular size. However, I have never been able to find it in any text book. Can you help me, please?

- Derek Rae - Tuesday, 03/20/07 17:37:58 EST

Cameron,

You wrote, "you would need a continuous weld the entire area of the face." I'm not sure what you mean by a continuous weld. If you mean the weld beads would have to overlap and cover the entire face of the anvil, I'm with you. In fact I assume it'd take several passes over the entire face to get a thick enough hard face to make any difference.

Matt - Tuesday, 03/20/07 17:47:06 EST

Hard facing cast iron: Matt, my fisher has about a 2" steel plate for the face. Putting that much hardfacing on an anvil---it would probably be cheaper to buy a top of the line new anvil and have it gold plated to boot!

Just a thin layer will end up cracking as the cast iron gives underneath it when hit.

Thomas

Thomas P - Tuesday, 03/20/07 17:49:22 EST

Hello, I have recently made a fairly large knife (15") out of an old shoeing rasp. It is shaped the way that I want and I am ready to try harding and tempering it. I have just begun doing any metal work at all, so I am a true amature. The only tools that I have to work with are hammers, anvil, a blowtorch/rosebud, and misc tools of no real metal working importance. I also do not have a good way to quench the hot metal. Any ideas on what I should get to do this with would be appreciated. Also, if someone could tell me what to look for while I am hardening and tempering the metal that would be great. I would also appreciate any general advice anyone has. Like I said, I am the true newbie, and would like information. Also to note, I am an 18 year old college student, so I have a very small amount of spendable money, please keep that in mind when giving advice.
Thank you very much for you time-
Ringo

Ringo - Tuesday, 03/20/07 18:59:55 EST

Ringo, First, shoeing rasps vary greatly in material from good high carbon steel to case hardened mild steel. This is junk yard steel or mystery metal in the truest sense. See our FAQ on Junk Yard Steel.

Then see our links on that page to our Heat Treating FAQ, Temper Color Chart, Quenchants. . .

See also our review of Wayne Goddard's $50 Knife Shop. We also have a number of other books on our review page that would be of great help to you.

After that I am sure you will have more questions.

- guru - Tuesday, 03/20/07 19:32:21 EST

Matt, Although cast iron CAN be welded in general it is considered to be impractical to arc weld. Special nickel rod with special flux (Ni-Rod) is required to weld directly to cast iron. At over $1/stick the costs add up quickly. Then hard facing rod itself is very brittle and not intended for application over cast iron, it is intended to be applied to steel including repairing tool steels.

Even refacing steel anvils is largely uneconomical. You can purchase decent anvils for what it costs to make these repairs. Among the cost not reported in articles on doing this, the $100 or more additional electric bill, and the cost of labor. Even at a couple dollars an hour it is a significant expense when doing all that grinding, rewelding, grinding. . .

Note that weld build up is NOT the same as rolled or forged steel. It is more equivalent to a low grade cast steel. As noted, it is intended to be supported by good steel, not weak cast iron. The "Cast Iron Properties" on our FAQs page.

- guru - Tuesday, 03/20/07 19:46:28 EST

thanks for the last info, and I think I may understand some stuff better. That also means I have more questions. Is there a way to heat my knife blade up so that i dont get hot spots? As i said before I am using a hobbystock torch with rosebud head to heat all my metal. Once I get one part of my knife hot, and move over