WELCOME to the anvilfire Guru's Den - V. 3.3

THIS is a forum for questions and answers about blacksmithing and general metalworking. Ask the Guru any reasonable question and he or one of his helpers will answer your question, find someone that can, OR research the question for you. This is an archive of posts from March 23 - 31, 2007 on the Guru's Den

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Wrought Iron RR Rail: Only the very earliest rails such as some experimental ones in the East were wrought. By the time the railroads were pushing west bulk medium carbon steel was the rule. I have a piece of wrought rail that was probably part of a city trolley or horse drawn system for a brief time. What you often see in old RR-rail that looks like "grain" is where the surface of the rail extrudes or smears and creates cold shuts. In some places after the inside edge of the rail became slumped and cold worked they reversed the rail so that the other side could wear. This was especially true on sidings where the loads were heavy but the traffic slow.    - guru - Friday, 03/23/07 09:10:20 EST Gentlemen : I live in the town of Star, NC and in our town we are working on a memorial project for our town's logging tramway that existed in 1896-1902. We have rescued a portion of the 75 foot smokestack from the 40 horse boiler that was at the mill from the woods. It is in fairly decent shape however there are some problems. When the smokestack finally fell down, the iron fire coal catch was bent badly. It is made of used wagon tire irons and was circular before it fell, now it is extremely oval in shape. I am interested in trying to make it round again, however the iron is rusty and I am afraid it will snap if I try to bend it. Are there any suggestions as to how to accomplish this without snapping the rings? Thanks -- John Maynard - Star, NC    John Maynard - Friday, 03/23/07 10:30:20 EST John, First I am sure you know there is a difference between restoration and preservation. You most often preserve things as-found and prevent further damage. Something made during that era MAY be wrought iron or it may be steel. See our FAQ about "wrought iron" for identification. If it is wrought and severely corroded then there is a good chance it will break. Old wrought is similar to wood in structure and corrosion expands and removes the slag inclusions leaving a very weak iron structure. There is no repairing it to being ductile again. If it is wrought in good shape it can be bent cold OR at a very high heat (yellow) but should not be bent at low heats. The heat will change the rust to a different form of iron oxide and the piece will not look the same afterwards (at least not for 20 years or more). If it is old mild steel it should still be ductile and will bend back into shape. There is rust and then there is RUST. Generally if 80% of the steel is there it can be straightened without a problem. There are a lot of blacksmiths in NC and I am sure you can find one that will help identify the metal.    - guru - Friday, 03/23/07 10:48:45 EST Plow repair---I have also heard it referred to as "pointing" a plow. "Practical Blacksmithing" by Richardson, written in the late 1880's early 1890's should cover it with a pretty "common terminology" as it is a collection of articles sent in to a blacksmithing journal of that time. Ken Paul Ailing was the smith at "Ohio Village" the Ohio Historical Society's 1860's village in Columbus, OH and unless he's moved recently should still be in the area. Soon after the village laid off *all* their trained craftspeople Pauls was badly burned in a house fire; he's had a hard row to hoe! Thomas    Thomas P - Friday, 03/23/07 10:58:59 EST Sources for good coal ? Where does everyone get their coal ? I live in Central N.C. Kayne and son are 5 hours from me, plus I want to buy at least a ton. Any ideas. Thanks, Phil    Phil Lewis - Friday, 03/23/07 12:48:44 EST What are the best welding rods to use on cast iron railings? and have you got any tips? Ac or Dc?    Mark J - Friday, 03/23/07 13:38:56 EST Phil: go to the navigate tool, (upper right this page)go to "coal scuttle"    ML - Friday, 03/23/07 13:42:11 EST Mark J: Google hobart welding, they have charts on line to select rods & shows whether ac/dc & voltage range for diameter. Or wait for a reply from the guru or one of his helpers. They will have a better answer for you.    ML - Friday, 03/23/07 13:45:15 EST Ml, Kayne is the only place listed in NC and they are five hours away (one way). I was hoping there was a source closer and Kayne lists a price by the fifty pound bag,don't know if they sell bulk. Phil    Phil Lewis - Friday, 03/23/07 14:11:29 EST Mark, Cast is difficult to weld. Using arc you want a NiRod (ask your welding supplier). Using gas (yes it works) you use cast iron. Most of the time brazing is the best repair that does the least damage to cast iron. When you arc weld a complicated cast iron shape if there is an enclosed space (circle, square. . ) and you are welding the perrifery thre is a good chance that the other side will break from the thermal stresses.    - guru - Friday, 03/23/07 14:13:40 EST Phil, They sell in bulk but delivery charges are high. It makes it worth the trip. Besides, they have a ton of other things you just HAVE to HAVE. . . ;)    - guru - Friday, 03/23/07 14:15:12 EST Wrought Iron Rail (maybe): If I was to get a picture could you identify it? I know it is much lighter than modern rail but it is much heavier than mine rail so I don’t hold a lot of hope for a wrought iron gold mine. Too heavy to be of much use anyway right? I was also curious what all of you thought of the Mythbusters hammer shattering tests. Is it like getting cut in half by a broken cable, everybody knows some body who knew a guy... Even the smith they talked to ‘knew a guy who...’ I saw lots of problems when they did it the first time but the revisit seemed really through. How about it guys, chipping sure but how many of you have shattered a hammer? Pictures? Ken Nelson    Ken Nelson - Friday, 03/23/07 15:41:17 EST I am currently building a landscape rake to be pulled behind a tractor via the 3 point hitch. I have looked at some from northern tool and they specify that theirs have 1" x 5/16" "spring" steel tines. My question is, In your opinion will A-36 suffice? My concern would be bending. My intent is to use it for raking up rocks 1/2" to 3" in diameter for a ten acre property. Mostly where we drive. Cost of steel is not such a concern but the ability to temper several 2 1/2' pieces. Thank you    ML - Friday, 03/23/07 15:41:47 EST Guru and Thomas, A little late here, but thanks for the feedback on the hardfacing cast iron question. It was just a thought, and you guys have persuaded me that it wasn't a very good one. But that's why I asked. :)    Matt - Friday, 03/23/07 15:44:24 EST ML I owned one of those landscape rakes by Northern tool. There is too much 'tine' and not enough 'space' between the tines. The tines need to be more like 1/2" wide at the same spacing. I think they use 1" so they can bolt the tines to the frame and so they can use cheaper steel. I took off every other tine when I used mine. I know this was not your question, but I didn't want you to copy a bad design. Mike    Mike Berube - Friday, 03/23/07 17:09:08 EST Mike Berube: Thanks for the input. I was thinking I would experiment with different widths to find what works. I already have a box blade I don't need another one ;)    ML - Friday, 03/23/07 17:20:40 EST Ken Nelson, Mythbusters are a bunch of guys who "think" that they are experts. First, the anvil they use is a Northern Tool ASO, so their anvil test was bad. Second, they tried to make the hammers brittle by heating them, then putting in oil, which caught fire, they put the fire out VERY slowly, so the only acheived annealing. When they tested the annealed hammers, the steel handles bent (big surprise). I've felt like e-mailing them and telling them what they did wrong. I chipped a hammer while forging with anger (yes I turned to the dark side). Shrapnel from the toe of the hammer face shot backwards into my hand. Vise grips and cursing aside, I got the chunk of metal out. Never use a hammer while angry.    - Nippulini - Friday, 03/23/07 18:08:26 EST I have not seen a hammer shatter. I have chipped many. And when playing with some simple 1050 press forged hammer head rejects, I cracked one in a large number of places when I water quenched. I suspect that hammer would shatter if a real blow on a hard anvil were to occur. I have also seen a number of broken dies that did shatter, when a cold billet snuck through.    ptree - Friday, 03/23/07 18:22:36 EST Has anyone heard of a "Hoover', anvil. I know long ago Ralph Hoover (a farriers tool maker), designed one, but it was called a "G.E." and was supposed to be of superior quality. I'm getting some pic's sent on one for sale that's 100#, but don't want to label it an ASO out of hand, so any input would be appreciated.    Thumper - Friday, 03/23/07 19:21:35 EST Got the pics on the anvil. It says HOOVER in caps, below there's a letter "S', inside a diamond shape, and below that is written "S-5", all lettering is raised. Thanks    Thumper - Friday, 03/23/07 19:26:29 EST Thumper: There is just a passing mention of Hoover in Anvils in America: "The following names might be found on farrier's cast anvils: Hoover, Thomas, Valley and Enders. I have either seen them in person, seen advertisements for them or viewed a photo of these anvils." You might call Richard Postman at 269-471-5426 and ask if he would like photographs.    Ken Scharabok (Poor Boy) - Friday, 03/23/07 19:50:09 EST Thanks Ken.    Thumper - Friday, 03/23/07 19:58:01 EST Ken N. I have personally seen hardened AND TEMPERED tool steel turned to rubble in a press mishap. I have seen tool steel crack from quenching alone. I don't want to be there if somebody puts enough force on a fully hardened but untempered chunk of steel to make it shatter. The Mythbusters flawed test was discused before, but there are a few points I will mention for Your benifit. 1) The steel needs to be CAPABLE of being fully hardened. 2) As Nip pointed out the quench must be suitable to harden the material. 3) You have to hit it with something hard while it sits ON something hard to get the greatest shock.    - Dave Boyer - Friday, 03/23/07 21:26:52 EST Mythbusters: They are as bad as Junk Yard Wars. Lots of fun, but not reality and often not factual. I had thought it would be great fun to challenge a Junk Yard Wars team with a bunch of blacksmiths. However, when you realize the whole thing is scripted including who wins and who loses as well as what is planted in the yard. . . then all the fun goes out of it. I have not seen the Mythbusters broken hammer show other than the clip of the hammers shattering. . . We all know that was phony. REALLY, you can do the same with two overripe bananas frozen in liquid Nitrogen. That is not phony AND it is impressive to see what happens to matter frozen that cold. It is entertainment using faux science and bad logic. A couple overage kids blowing things up in the backyard. The problem is that some of the "factual" shows like the History channel are getting as bad in their quest for entertainment. There are some REALLY great experiments and demonstrations in chemistry and physics that can be just as entertaining as the faux science. Where is Mr. Wizard when you need him? Famous line from "Dinosaurs" refering to the Mr. Wizard show, "Whoops, we need another Timmy!"    - guru - Friday, 03/23/07 22:52:12 EST Shattered hammers. The catch word is "shattered". Who has never seen a hammer with spalled face edges? Spalling is what normally happens. Entire, hand-forged hammer heads are not quenched in one 'swell foop'. The main reason is that the thinner wall either side of the eye will lose heat in the quenchant faster than the peen or head. When quenched in its entirety, the difference in heat abstraction may cause a crack on the eye wall. Note. Quenching a tool in used, dirty motor oil will cause a slower quench than if clean oil is used. I heat, quench, and temper the head and peen separately, leaving the eye area normalized or annealed. Getting to Boyer's point # 1, re "fully hardened." When dealing with high carbon steel, a common hammer head steel, there is something called the case/core effect (having nothing to do with case hardening). My readings tell me that if a 5/8" W1 square bar is hardened by heating and quenching, that the material will harden all the way through. However, if the piece is larger than 5/8", the heat cannot be abstracted fast enough to cause full hardening. There will be a "hard case" and a "tough core. On a hammer head then, you don't get full hardness, but rather the case/core effect. For this reason, W1 is called a shallow hardening steel. The question may arise, "is this effect bad for the hammer head?" I believe just the opposite. When tempering the head, you're really just tempering the hardened case. The tough core acts a bit like an internal "shock absorber". If the myth busters had used a brine quench, they would have got a deeper hardening that either water or oil can give. I will continue to give my students the ancient shop rule, "Never hit hardened steel with hardened steel."    Frank Turley - Friday, 03/23/07 22:58:52 EST Hoover Anvil, I called Mr. Postman and his input was that he'd heard of the brand although it's not in his book. Because it has a turning clip in good condition, it's probably cast steel. Also, he mentioned that there are a # of anvils out there made by family owned business that were short lived in their production but not necessarily bad tools, in fact some were quite good. This one he believes was made somewhere after 1960. Think I'll buy it if it passes a ball bearing bounce test.    Thumper - Saturday, 03/24/07 00:28:09 EST Pexto anvils? picked up a pexto stake anvil the other day, i found a picture on ebay that pretty much was the same thing i got, the pic was of a #901. does anyone have any info, value etc, for this anvil? is pexto still around? thanks Mike    MikeK - Saturday, 03/24/07 04:57:26 EST Peck Stow and Wilcox Co.: This was the name of the famous company that was to become known as Pexto. In their 1905 catalog they carried everything from andirons and hinges to carpenters and tinsmiths tools. Later they would become known only for their tinners' tools and were in fact the largest and most well known company in this field. They pretty much went defunct as hand working sheet metal is not nearly the occupation it once was. However what is left of the product line is sold by Roper-Whitney. Pexto made a variety of tinsmiths stakes and a great number of sheet metal working machines and tools. Sheet metal stakes are similar to stake anvils but generally are not considered "anvils" except in the most general of terms. Pexto and other maker's stakes were are all designed with a tapered shank to fit into a stake holder. Stake holders varied from simple bench flanges to huge multi hole, multi size plates and long extension arms. The two stakes shown here (right and below) are those most commonly mistaken for blacksmiths anvils. Besides these are cylindrical stakes, tapered edge "hatchet" stakes, grooved "creasing" stakes, flat stakes, round "mushroom" stakes, bathtub, needle case, candle mould and stove pipe stakes. The other misconception is that these are "hardy" tools that should fit the square hardy hole of a blacksmith's anvil. They are NOT. Their tapered shanks will wedge into the straight sided hardy hole and can do damage to the anvil, possibly breaking it off at the heel. Sheet metal stakes are used in tapered stake holders, clamped in a vise (on the straight part of the shank) or mounted into a wood block or "stump". They should never be used as an anvil tool. In the 1905 catalog the stake and tool numbers run 1, 2, 3. . . Nothing as high as 901. However on the Roper-Whitney web site (roperwhitney.com) under "miscellaneous, forming stakes" that number is listed. The stake there is known as a large "beakhorn stake" 38" long and 45 pounds in weight. Typically old stakes are selling for about $100 to $150 but you can find them for less. NEW they are more expensive. This one is probably around $500 to $800 or so.    - guru - Saturday, 03/24/07 08:23:45 EST Stake prices vs Anvil prices: Folks should note that new OR used stakes are selling for a lot higher than anvils. At $800 for 45 pounds that is $20/pound and these are most commonly cast steel or fabricated. The last price on 45 pound forged Peddinghaus anvils was about $7/pound and this was their most expensive anvil per pound due to its small size. Some of this difference in price is due to stakes being finished on all the working surfaces which many new anvils are not. Much of the difference is supply and demand.    - guru - Saturday, 03/24/07 08:38:08 EST Question: Old Unique Bell liquidgeometry@gmail.com Question about this old-looking handheld bell, which I found at my former residence, jammed down behind an old radiator here in historic Richmond, VA. This bell seems to have been made out of one single piece of metal and it is quite fascinating. I have had this thing for over a year and finally stumbled upon your website, which seems to have similar qualities and characteristics of craftsmanship, which this piece holds. Basic Info, Approx. Dims : Overall height w/handle 3.5" diameter 2.0" Bell Housing height @ 2.0" * Bell handle has a 3-D dual leaf pattern which splits from the top of the bell housing, forms a pear shape(side view) from there until it reconnects to form a S type curl at the top where the leaf tips re-connect, also an inner S shape made from thin slices, maybe .08, slivered from the inside of each leaf. I can email you a drawing to another email address when you get back to me. I am also a professional artist (painting, printmaking, welding, sculpture, ect.... As an artist, just wanted to let you know that the work you have up on site, examples, demos, drawings and website itself are amazing clear and concise. 'Kudos' from one perfectionist to another! Actually, I need to get a sculpture piece together for a show coming up mid-April, this site seems to be the gold-mine of knowledge which I'm going to need to craft whats in my head for this site specific installment. Hopefully you could suggest an inexpensive way to start out with blacksmithing, tools, access to an anvil, best place to find stock, tensility etc. I hope we can communicate further about what you might think of this bell, maybe a time frame of when it was produced, and if it could be worth something as an artifact, or antique not that I would want to sell it, Makes a great conversation piece! Anyway, any help or insight would be appreciated, J P Sullivan    - LiquidGeometry - Saturday, 03/24/07 09:10:29 EST Thank you guru, that was excellent information, my anvil is almost exactly like the one in ebay auction 330101088658 (not mine ;) would the one in the pictures on the auction me more of a general smithing anvil than the one in your picture? or would it be more of a tinsmithing anvil as well? thanks again Mike    MikeK - Saturday, 03/24/07 10:15:24 EST Stakes caveat-- they are-- or most are, anyway-- cast iron, not forged steel, and CANNOT be struck with heavy blows.    Miles Undercut - Saturday, 03/24/07 10:25:06 EST Stake Material: A few are CI but most I have seen were forged and fabricated iron and steel. The old blow horn stake above is forged and forge welded. The later stake is cast steel. The really long stakes are all forged or fabricated steel. No, these are not smithing anvils. They are too light and springy except for light bending of hot steel. They are designed for sheet metal work. Save your money for a real anvil. See our Anvil Selection article on the FAQs page.    - guru - Saturday, 03/24/07 11:24:26 EST i went to the scrap yard and drug home ninety pounds of scrap thinking it was wrought....then i spark tested it...CRAP i got cast iron. Next time im bringing the battery grinder and sparking it there! at least it was 40 cents a pound and i can take it back.    coolhand - Saturday, 03/24/07 11:25:17 EST LiquidGeometry AKA JP Sullivan, First, contact the Central Virginia Blacksmiths Guild (www.cvbg.org). They are based in the Richmond area and have meetings every month. They will be able to answer many of your questions about where to find tools and supplies. In fact, their ex-president is John Elliot of BlacksmithSupply.com. He is right there in Chester and has many of the tools you may need. At CVBG meets there are almost always one or more tailgaters (sellers of used tools). Then there is the big Dempsey Machinery and Tool fleamarket in Richmond. Ask about it. I'm not sure about your bell but the guys in CVBG may be able to help on that as well.    - guru - Saturday, 03/24/07 11:32:49 EST More Stake Material: The ones that are most commonly cast ductile or cast iron are the light duty silversmiths' stakes that come in hundreds if not an almost infinite number of shapes. The best are made of forged steel but there are a lot of cheaper ones made of CI.    - guru - Saturday, 03/24/07 12:04:15 EST On wrought iron: are you sure you can tell the difference beteen WI and CI sparks? They can be similiar at times. I suggest the partial notch and break test and look for fiberous structure---I carry a bow saw in the truck with a piece of metal cutting bandsawblade in it for scrap yard determinations and dissassemblies. That stake is a nice one for forming bracelets and penannular brooches on---I picked mine up for US$25 in an OK pawn shop back in the 1980's...It is too soft for steel forging as the dings left by students atest. Thomas    Thomas P - Saturday, 03/24/07 13:10:27 EST I have followed with interest the discussion on horizontal bandsaws as I was thinking of buying one to assist in my power hammer build...after absorbing the info I went to Princess Auto to buy thier 4x6" model ($289 Can) it has a solid cast frame with sealed bearing guides as they were out of that model and wouldnot sell me the floor model they offerd me the 5" swivel head for $399 ...$100 off the sticker price....I set up the bandsaw and used it for the first time today...the first thing I will say is throw away the blade that comes with it and buy a bimetal...but apart from that it is a well put together M/C after a bunch of bolt and allen thightening I did a test cut on 4" square tube 1/4" wall the cut was fast and acurate (for a bandsaw) running only .002 out of square the next cut was cutting the spline end of a 5" axle that I wish to use as an anvil the M/C cut to .003 of square this time...I believe with some tweeking I may be able to get it to run a little closer to square but all in all a good bandsaw...Thank you all for the info that helped me make up my mind to buy one the hours of time and hearing saved not having to cut these two items with a chop saw have allready paid the price of the M/C Mark    Mark P - Saturday, 03/24/07 14:33:14 EST Saws are great tools when they work right. That is cutting as square as I have ever measured on a small saw. Usually the stock supports and stand sag from weight of solid stock is more than that. To get mine to cut that square in both directions required truing the saw in one direction then the stock stands in the other. If you want good square cutting all the time a permanent setup is required so that stands of feed racks do not get moved between uses. When a saw is cutting true enough you can get away with sawed surfaces rather than machined. You don't have to make but a hand full of cuts with a band saw to pay for the difference in price of a chop saw in noise alone much less the rain of sparks and grit. The only time I have use for an abrasive chop saw is cutting material that is too hard to saw.    - guru - Saturday, 03/24/07 15:11:26 EST Excuse me if I am being impatient, I posted this yesterday about this time. I got some other advise frome Mike Berube but not as to my original question. I am currently building a landscape rake to be pulled behind a tractor via the 3 point hitch. I have looked at some from northern tool and they specify that theirs have 1" x 5/16" "spring" steel tines. My question is, In your opinion will A-36 suffice? My concern would be bending. My intent is to use it for raking up rocks 1/2" to 3" in diameter for a ten acre property. Mostly where we drive. Cost of steel is not such a concern but the ability to temper several 2 1/2' pieces. Thank you    ML - Saturday, 03/24/07 16:08:44 EST ML, It is difficult to tell. First, all steel is as springy as any other (mild, spring or tool). The difference being how far the harder steel will deflect and still return to shape. The second thing is how the spring is attached. The maximum load on a single ended piece is at the connection point. This is where it is most likely to bend. There are two ways to reduce the stress at this point. 1) Forge a tapered spring. 2) Use stacked leafs. The stacked leafs will support the leaf under it and the one under that. . Much simpler than a tapered spring AND the individual pieces are less likely to break. Since the bending point on these springs is going to be at the attachment point if you provide backups about 1/3 the length of the main spring then mild steel may work. The devil is in the details and design is everything. The point is that you can get away with a badly designed spring steel spring but a mild steel spring must be made better. Note that the hardness of the points helps reduce wear as well as help springyness. ALSO note that annealed OR mill run (normalized) spring steel is MUCH tougher than mild steel and may be capable of flexing twice as far as hardened and tempered spring steel. Spring steel is often sold in the hardened and spring tempered condition. This can be bent (with some difficulty) but it avoids the heat treating. So many manufacturers start with heat treated spring steel which can be sawed and drilled (slower than mild or annealed) then bent to shape. That is the route I would go.    - guru - Saturday, 03/24/07 16:42:15 EST Guru: Thank you very much. I now have a couple of options to play with. I very much appreciate your site & you are to be commended for continually helping those of us without your expertise.    ML - Saturday, 03/24/07 16:56:21 EST I am now looking at buying an Anvil. Do I go Forge or cast. Dan    Dan - Saturday, 03/24/07 17:29:07 EST Dan, You only have one choice in NEW forged anvils and that is a Peddinghaus. These are currently in short supply as the factory is being operated in spurts. Check with the Kaynes (BlacksmithsDepot.com). If they have one, buy it. Otherwise they are all cast. Most of the U.S. made are better in my opinion but you also pay for that quality. There are also some good European anvils that are in the same price range. Euroanvils is a good buy for the money but are not the best. Forged anvils still have a slight advantage over the best cast steel anvils. However, casting quality drops rapidly with price and good cast anvils are close to the price of forged anvils. Generally the lower the price, the lower the quality. At a certain point you get to low quality cast steels that are not much more hardenable than mild steel and not NEARLY as strong. These are mostly the junkers found on ebay. There are also people that sell weak low quality cast iron as cast steel. In used anvils there are many forged anvils. You get what you find and what you find depends on how long you are willing to look OR wait. The best deals are purchasing directly from individuals. Listings on ebay are there with the intent to run up the price so expect no fantastic deals. DO NOT buy any of the new junk anvils on ebay. You are better off to buy an OLD scroungy beat up anvil that was a GOOD anvil when it was new. There are lots of these to be found at blacksmiths meets. AVOID repaired anvils.    - guru - Saturday, 03/24/07 19:55:01 EST Dan: Go to www.ebay.com and then do a search on this listing # 280055300765. May answer some of your questions. Personally I am not a fan of the currently cast anvils. However, each has their own preference.    Ken Scharabok (Poor Boy) - Saturday, 03/24/07 20:37:18 EST Dan, I own four anvils: A forged wrought iron and steel Peter Wright, an unknkown forged wrought iron and steel side-face London style, a Fisher cast iron and tool steel anvil, and a cast steel Nimba Gladiator. My favorite is the Nimba, by a large margin. Mostly that is because the Nimba style is much more versatile than the London or American patterns, and it is fairly heavy at 450#. That large mass is important when you're doing work with stock over 3/4" square, but I even notice a significant difference on smaller stock. My second favorite anvil is the Fisher because it is dead quiet. Noisy, ringing anvis are hard on the hearing. Note, the Nimba, if not mounted correctly, is without a doubt the loudest, most penetratingly annoying anvil I've ever heard. Mounted correctly on a bed of Geocel silicone adhesive, it is very nearly as quiet as the Fisher. I'd recommend you look seriously at the Nimba anvils. They're a fine design, high qualityand they're a 100% made in the USA product.    vicopper - Saturday, 03/24/07 21:03:21 EST When you call Nimba, mention anvilfire. They have not been an advertiser for many years but we have sold many on their anvils. In fact, they have gotten as many click throughs on their permanent listing as they did when they were advertising. Many folks do not like the wide face of the Nimba, while others love the wide face. The feature that Italian style Nimba does not have that many modern European anvils have is the side clip. I have never appreciated the side shelf until I saw how Dean Curfman of Big BLU Hammers uses his. He uses the rounded inside corner for shaping leaves and the gap created by the L shape of the face to straighten work. He uses the side side shelf so much that he had one welded to the side of his Peddinghaus. My cast steel Kohlswa is a very noisy anvil. However, I find that the noise is telling you when you are working too cold. But striking the horn or heel on the side makes an ear piercing sound louder than any other. You can learn to be very annoying by paying attention to where an anvil makes the most noise. I have also found that the surroundings make a big difference in anvil noise. Ringing anvils never bothered me at home because I either worked out doors or in a shop with tall ceilings and lots of junk covering the flat hard surfaces. I was at a demo once in a shop with low ceilings and fairly clean walls and the anvil ring was absolutely painful. Ear protection was not just a good idea, it was an absolute necessity.    - guru - Saturday, 03/24/07 21:55:53 EST Hardened Tool Steel: In the several posts about tool steel selection I have written here and across the street I have mentioned depth of hardening on thick sections. Air hardening steels harden extremely deeply, and a chunk the size of a grapefruit or even larger will be fully hard all the way through. This can be good or bad depending on the service of the tool. The large tool parts I have seen turn to rubble were air hardened, had they been oil or water hardened the hard material would have spalled off the surfaces in some places and cracked but remained atached in others. As Frank mentioned the tough core of water and oil hardening steels is good for absorbing shock, but in some extremely heavily loaded parts the core which ends up being about 40-45 RC can be deformed in use. This is a bit like a hard steel topped wrought anvil becoming swabacked. If this happens a change to air hardened material can help.    - Dave Boyer - Saturday, 03/24/07 22:39:54 EST I am 50 years old and work in a school in central China (close to Himalayas). I always wanted to do some forging work. I have lots of space here and can build a custom size workshop with forge, anvil, lathe etc. Does anybody produce a suggested building plan? How big should it be? I have access to unlimited supplies of either coal or natural gas. For nostalgic reasons I would like a coal forge but would gas be a better choice? Chinese "anvils" seem to be a joke. Is there such a thing as a good Chinese anvil? Importing from Europe or USA would be a very expensive option but I would rather do that initially than end up with a heap of scrap after a couple of months. FYI the blacksmiths here are like stepping back 100 years!    Philip Jackson - Saturday, 03/24/07 23:14:25 EST Philip, The Chinese jumped past the wrought iron stage directly to cast iron long before the West was using cast iron. As a result they started making cast iron anvils very early and have never stopped. Their traditional shapes are very odd to western eyes. Some of this is dictated by the long use of cast iron. It is also due to the lack of development forging lots of wrought iron as was the case in the West. Just over the mountains in India they cast fairly decent anvils for British resellers who used to have their steel anvils cast in England. Indian tools may be an option for you. However, I know nothing of the trade relations between China and India. A very good line of tongs is manufactured in Pakistan as well. In the US we are using German and Czech anvils as well as US made anvils. When good anvils are not available but heavy scrap steel is then it is possible to build a make-shift anvil. Mild steel is better than cast iron and can be hard faced if needed or is possible. Often heavy plate and shafting is 40 point carbon steel which is hardenable sufficient to be a decent anvil. Shop size depends on what you can afford. Space tends to fill up no matter how much you have. A very small one man shop will fit in a 15 x 15 foot space (~4.5 x 4.5m). This is room for a forge, anvil, drill press and a couple benches. A convenient size one man shop is more like 20 x 40 feet (35 to 40 square meters). This is enough space for forge, welding area, stock racks, saw, drill and lathe as well as some heavy benches. I would probably start with 6x6 meters and plan to double that space in a few years. If your climate and security allow an open air shop you can get away with less (I suspect neither applies where you are). If you must heat in the winter and need to be a full time shop then smaller is better. But if you are going to have students or helpers then you need more space and a way to heat the shop. A forge is a very inefficient way to heat a shop. Coal is not a particularly tradition fuel. Charcoal is the most traditional fuel globally and is not so varied in quality as is mineral coal. Coal that is suitable for bulk use in a big furnace may be worthless as smithing coal. Only the best top grade coals work well for smithing. If what you have is high ash, less than the best BTU and high sulfur then charcoal is the best route for solid fuel. Good luck! Sounds like you have an intersting life.    - guru - Saturday, 03/24/07 23:45:35 EST 10,000,000 - The TEN MILLIONth visit to anvilfire will occur tomorrow Sunday March 24th, 2007 sometime in the afternoon or evening. That is the accumulated traffic from 9 years of service to the blacksmithing community. In April of 2008 we will celebrate our 10th anniversary and 12 to 13 million visits to anvilfire.com! In that time I have answered an estimated 30,000 to 36,000 questions on-line and at least 2,000 via e-mail. The total answered is probably double that. In that time to run anvilfire I have had 3PC's, all rebuilt at least once or twice in their life (I just rebuilt the newest from a hard drive crash). There have been three laptops for use in the field. I've worn out one digital camera and I am looking to replace the second that was bought less than 2 years ago. We've also gone through 3 commercial printers, a VCR, video capture device, assorted scanners and other peripherals. I'm driving my 5th used vehicle. I've traveled thousands of miles every year for anvilfire including flying to Calgary Canada and Flagstaff AZ. We have reported on every ABANA convention in our NEWS since 1998. We are now on our 4th dedicated server and need to move to a 5th (a huge undertaking, since we also host dozens of other sites to help defray costs). We have had 24 key industry sponsors several of which have been with us from day one. Centaur Forge under the late Bill Pieh was the first, then Bruce Wallace and Bull Hammers (now Pheonix Hammers) then Kayne and Son (now BlacksmithsDepot). The Kaynes have been our longest continuous advertiser. CSI was launched in 2000 as a support group for anvilfire and had as many as 200 members at one time. CSI memberships kept anvilfire afloat for several years. CSI officialy became a non-profit last year. The goal was to develop enough revenue through memberships to properly support anvilfire. We are continously making changes and additions to anvilfire. Often when it looks like little is happening we are rewriting or updating old or popular articles. This is a task I could do full time for years. Unlike many other sites we have always kept ALL out content from day one on line. None has been lost due to database or server failures. What lies in the future for anvilfire? Who knows. . I have stopped making predictions. But we WILL continue for the time being.    - guru - Saturday, 03/24/07 23:47:01 EST Blower Idea I just got an idea for a cheap blower for a make-shift forge.You could use one of those hand dryer things that are in public restrooms. Motor and fan included, plus a nice mountable case. Could probobly find one at a junk yard somewhere...    - Sebastian B. - Sunday, 03/25/07 01:04:58 EST Was insipired by a previous post and had to make one. Little Thors hammer for a keychain. A few friends of mine consider themselves Odinists, so they'll enjoy some hand forged Mjollnirs.    - Nippulini - Sunday, 03/25/07 08:50:19 EST Pexto is not defunct. Pexto was bought by Roper Whitney, and rolled into their line. Many of the Pexto tools were dropped, but a few are still manufactured. The old Pexto 901 is the large Beakhorn Stake, and it is still available as a Pexto 901 from Roper Whitney. www.roperwhitney.com under "misc". I am not sure of the current price, but I am sure it is well over $200.    - ries - Sunday, 03/25/07 12:42:33 EST Guru, congratulations on your 10 millionth visitor! Thanks for creating and maintaining a great site!    quenchcrack - Sunday, 03/25/07 14:09:00 EST Thank You Guru, for your extraordinary efforts and wealth of information that you have made available to this community! I have visited here, sometimes daily, for a couple of years, and feel like I am personally acquainted with many of the voices here. My question; I have a Kinyon style air hammer, set up more or less with the basic valve arrangement suggested in Ron's plans. I am contemplating using a PLC (logic controller) to control it's functions, as to be able to set stroke length/speed/height/etc, as well as clamping and lockout functions. I'm wondering if anyone here has played around with something similar, and have any remarks about it. 10,000,000....Damn! Thanks again Guru    - CharlieS - Sunday, 03/25/07 17:17:09 EST Guru: Appreciate the feedback, Thats exactly what I was looking for. Once more, excellent site, Take Care, JP    JPSullivan - Sunday, 03/25/07 17:29:35 EST PLC Hammer Control: Well. . . First, I am sure it would work. However, you could add a LOT of valves and controls for the cost of the PLC sensors. THEN there is the programming. I've done a bunch of this and it always seems it is harder than one would think. Treadle input would need to be by radial or linear resolver. Then the exhaust control valve would need to be capable of being throttled by the controller. Ram position is another question. I am not sure a linear resolver would work at ram velocities. For safety you would need an upper (end of cylinder stroke) sensor. I know they make cylinders with internal resolvers. Would have to research the velocity and durability. If you are talking about simple mode control then that can be done with a single valve and the stroke length by adjusting the return valve position. Big BLU Hammers has done that. Thee is a lot of difference in how the limit trip air hammers work and the old industrial air hammers. They had a feedback cam between the ram and the control valve that dynamically adjusted the air flow. Stroke length was changed mechanically by a lever that changed the cam's center of rotation. If you look at a Bull or Phoenix hammer the controls on them work via a feed back arm. There is a LOT that can be done mechanically on an air hammer a lot cheaper than using PLC controls.    - guru - Sunday, 03/25/07 19:56:27 EST Thomas, in your response to coolhand yesterday, did you really mean to type that *cast iron* and wrought iron sometimes spark the same? Mild steel and WI, I would expect. I'm only questioning your typing -- if you confirm your post, I'll believe you.    Mike BR - Sunday, 03/25/07 20:30:13 EST Nippulini, could yuou sned me pictures of the little thors hammer you made? and also, instructions, i have tried liek 20 times Cam    Cameron - Sunday, 03/25/07 21:17:30 EST Mike BR and Thomas, I was kinda wondering about the WI and CI spark. They look altogether different to me. I do a spark test for each class, and we always put wrought and cast iron on the wheel. "To the jaundiced eye, everything is yellow". BOL    Frank Turley - Sunday, 03/25/07 21:51:41 EST 10,000,000: We passed the ten million mark at 9:00 PM EDT! I had hoped to plan a contest for the ten millionth (or closest) visitor but have been much much to busy as the number got closer and closer. Its sort of like old age. Those birthdays seem to fly by. I was not yet 50 when I launched anvilfire and I am getting close to 60 now. . . We should hit the 20,000,000 mark in less than 5 years. We have a 10th anniversary coming up next year. Maybe we will have a 13 millionth visitor contest then!    - guru - Sunday, 03/25/07 21:52:22 EST Hi all, Just started aquiring tools, extremly new to the trade. I purchased an anvil e-bay. it turned out to be a Peter Wright, I found the stamp when I sand blasted it. My first question- I had a machine shop mill the top-they said this was very difficult used three different tool bits- took off a quarter inch from the tail and 1/32 near the horn to get it flat and level- did I just ruin my anvil? 2nd ? ther are two #5 stamped on the feet of the anvil under the horn-do you know what these mean- there is the weight stamps(1 5 12) under the logo on the side but i haven't a clue about the #5s thank you brian    - brian - Sunday, 03/25/07 21:53:03 EST Brian: Likely the 5 is a 3. The middle number represents 28 pounds and thus cannot be more than 3 or it becomes another notch up of the first one (112 lbs). Simply weigh the anvil. If the weight is around 208 pounds it confirms a 3 vs 5. However, some anvils have been found misstamped. For example say it weighted 264 pounds and should have been marked as 2 1 12. The stamped used a 1 for the first number, realized their mistake and then took care of it by using a 5 vs 1 for the middle number. Richard Postman tells me the odd marks on some anvils are likely either inspector stamps or perhaps intended to indicate a particular batch of metal or run. As an example he is pretty well clueless as to why CF&I used an A in front of some of their serial numbers. The last owner said they thought it indicated a second quality, but he notes these seem to be just as good as those with the A. He also notes one anvil crew chief was named Anderson, but likely it is just a coincidence.    Ken Scharabok (Poor Boy) - Sunday, 03/25/07 22:44:57 EST I was at a swapmeet today and saw some 1 1/2 in sq. tubing that was twisted. I thought you could twist only solid stock??    Rudy - Sunday, 03/25/07 22:49:38 EST Cam, I used MANY heats and upset rod in a vise. I upset to almost 5 times the thickness, then hammered it flat on the anvil. I fullered the length and head out to a sledge type shape. Back to the vise, I hammered the top to angles, then finished off with a few taps for the flat top. Cut the handle on the hardie, drawn out flat, then curled. A small split ring keychain fits the loop. I'll post a pic on my homepage soon and send you a link. The whole project took about 20 minutes and the piece is about 2-1/2" long.    - Nippulini - Sunday, 03/25/07 23:01:28 EST Thors Hammer: Okay, I jumped the gun and took a couple cell phone shots. Pay no mind to the sweaty palm. http://a677.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/2/l_0cec2be286e5e3a2360691c3d8dc61c4.jpg http://a314.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/5/l_e82e7ee8451ab1f9ac04e40f4f83a769.jpg    - Nippulini - Sunday, 03/25/07 23:15:05 EST Machining Anvil: It may not be ruined but you did great damage to it. It is definitely worth about 1/3 of whatever you paid for it. Old English anvils have a hard steel plate welded to the face over soft wrought iron. Peter Wright bragged about their pure high grade wrought iron bodies and THIS was in fact a fault. They become sway backed much more easy than the "lesser" anvils made from scrap. The face varies in thickness from 1/2" to 5/8" BEFORE the factory ground it. But usually the minimum was 1/2". Removing half of that reduces the plate to much too thin AND removes the hardest part of the face. There was nothing wrong with a slightly swayed anvil as it is perfectly fine for forging and better for straightening than a flat anvil. These are a forging and bending tool, NOT a precision reference surface. And all the antique dealers and collectors cringed at the sandblasting. . . But the deed is done, too late. Use it as is. If you use it lightly as a hobby anvil it will hold up. Use it like a shop anvil with heavy anvils and sledges and the face is likely to fail. If or when it fails then it will be time to build up a new face with expensive weld repair.    - guru - Sunday, 03/25/07 23:55:23 EST Twisting: Rudy, You can twist almost anything. Thin wall tubing must be twisted over a mandrel but thick wall will twist fairly well as you have seen.    - guru - Sunday, 03/25/07 23:57:50 EST Thank you Ken and Guru, Hard mistakes are the best teacher. more thought and care next time. brian    - brian - Monday, 03/26/07 07:50:16 EST Was that a haiku?    - Nippulini - Monday, 03/26/07 07:55:33 EST Jock, Thanks a million for the ten million.    Frank Turley - Monday, 03/26/07 09:37:30 EST Machining Anvil: if you *must* machine an anvil. Make sure they turn it upside down and mill the bottom parallel to the face and *THEN* turn it right side up and clean up the face. There is no guarentee that an old anvil has the face parallel to the base and I have seen several ruined by milling off hardened tool steel just to match up to the wrought iron base. Think of the face material as gold and try to figure out the method that "throws away" the least ammount of it. Machinists always want to mill anvil faces---tell them they can mill the anvil face if you can forge steel on the ways of their machine tools! Thomas    Thomas P - Monday, 03/26/07 12:52:46 EST Many anvils were never machined flat to start with. The old forged anvils were hand ground on a huge rotating wet stone with the assistance of some levers to handle the weight. They were hand forged to start and hand finished by eye. I have seen old anvils that had the face slope to one end or the other an inch or more and from sided to side a good 1/8". Machining the base first is the easy way to go but it can remove at lot of anvil for no good purpose. Most rough parts must be indicated in to the average surface and wedges, shims or jacks placed under the work. Then you know how much is needed to machine the part and take off the least. You can also decide NOT to machine the part OR to only partially machine the part. Many modern anvils are flycut flat and left as-is. Some are ground afterwards. Others are hand ground from the rough cast with a big belt sander. In recent years this has caused problems with anvils where the narrow European square horn as been ground with a dropping curve. This is because the grinder takes more off at the narrow part of the horn. Some of these had 1/2" of drop at the tip of the square horn! The best anvils have a machining allowance of at least a quarter of an inch and it is all machined off to get down to good clean metal. Then the anvil may be lightly ground to take out the cutter marks. The result is a very flat true anvil. But the old wrought anvils were not made this way.    - guru - Monday, 03/26/07 14:13:55 EST Speaking of anvils, I'm on the trail of another one that my source tells me "it's last job was used in cracking walnuts". I must rescue this tool from such a demeaning task. As it's been said many times here "Anvils are where you find them."    daveb - Monday, 03/26/07 16:16:09 EST a new forge months, months months back you guys were kind and helped me put together my first forge, a trough forge made out of a habachi grill, a blow dryer and some clay. i thank you guys for all the help youve given me(and its been alot) but i do have another thing i need some advice on... im trying to build a larger forge, my small one just isnt large enough to heat long pieces of metal. now what i have been thinking is actually digging a forge. instead of building something out of brick or whatever ive thought it would be a good idea dig a rectangular or square pit, provide some route to get oxygen in the fire and use that. the question is, do you guys with your experience(my experience= less than a year, lol) think that its a good idea to dig a forge instead of build an above ground one? and if said idea is something that might be halfway intellegent for me to persue are there any suggestions you could make for it? thanks guys.    Isaac Johnson - Monday, 03/26/07 16:24:00 EST Hey, guys - I wonder if anyone on this site has any good links, information, images, etc. on the works of Cyril Colnik? I have seen what little the abana website has to offer, and their link to see some of his work (the masterpiece gate?) doesn't seem to work so hot. To look at his stuff that I have seen, he was an incredible technical virtuoso!    vorpal - Monday, 03/26/07 16:57:32 EST Congrats on the ten millionth visitor, Guru! The other day a farm advertising circular came in the mail and low and behold there was an ad from "Roper-Whitney of Rockford." The ad showed sheet metal shears and brakes. Two of which stuck in my mind. One was the model 1014 shear (10', 14 gage) which weighed 5050lb and a PEXTO 16 gage treadle shear. Not the least hint about pricing. . . Somehow, I have never quite understood the machinery industry's reluctance to publish even "list" prices. The only theory I've been able to come up with is the price can vary a lot with how busy the company is and your relationship with the dealer. . .    John Lowther - Monday, 03/26/07 17:13:41 EST John Lowther: My new steel stock provider won't publish a price list either. Prices are changed every time they get in a new stock of something. If I call for a quote it is only good until resupply.    Ken Scharabok (Poor Boy) - Monday, 03/26/07 18:28:52 EST Issaac, google- primal knifemakers- some of them use dug forges    - ptpiddler - Monday, 03/26/07 19:13:23 EST Pricing: Some folks set an honest price and stick to it while others leave you wondering. It is a matter of choice. Those that set prices usually stick to them longer than they should. I know one equipment dealer that wants folks to call and have a chance to make a sale before they are scared by the price. Personally, if a dealer does not have a price then I pass and look for someone that does. Note that often the manufacturer will not post prices but dealers will. Those that stock inventory and move product often have better prices than those that do not. But publishing prices is still a personal choice. Some of the pricing question is based on the fact that once a price is in print it can be found for YEARS. However, today on the web prices of finished goods can go up and down like the stock market. The software that the Kayne's site runs on lets them change any aspect of a product listing via a web portal. They like it because when they run out of a product they can simply mark it pending and it instantly disappears from the public site. Thus no back orders. When the item is back in stock they can mark it live with a simple click of the mouse and it reappears on the site. Price changes are equally simple.    - guru - Monday, 03/26/07 21:22:07 EST Dug Forge: This is common in many places. The big difference is how you prefer to work, standing or squatting on the ground. Most of the West considered standing to be more efficient and that custom has been slowly replacing the system in the East of squatting to work. Note that one difference between the two methods is that expensive benches, tables and stands are not need in the system where one works on the ground. This makes it more common in impoverished nations. Many Western smiths use the Japanese style trough forge which is basically a floor of bricks with two parallel walls about 8" or 9" apart. Air comes in from one or more holes in one side wall next to the bellows. Traditionally these were built on the floor but but Western smiths simply start with a bench and built UP from that so that they are convenient to work at standing. In fact the first one of these I saw was used by a smith in the Phillipines. It had a masonry base to raise it to the proper height and was used in an open air shop. One advantage of an in the ground forge is the insulation the soil provides. However, you must also be sure you are not building in rich loamy topsoil as it can burn and once an underground fire is started they are difficult to extinguish and may burn for years. The price is right for a dug forge. A trench, some rocks to make the air tunnel, some clay (from the earth) mixed with manure to help bind it covering the surface of the pit. Either a bellows or a modern blower may be used. If you like to play in the mud and do not mind working at ground level then this is the forge for you.    - guru - Monday, 03/26/07 21:38:07 EST Recently I built a micro forge using ceramic plates from a pottery kiln. There are four plates secured together by banding them with steel straps. The fire box is set in a cradle made of angle iron. I am using MAP gas. I have used the forge very successfully five times but today I noticed the plates have cracks in them. They have not come apart but these are more than surface cracks. There have been no pops or snaps that I could hear. I think that the straps are keeping the ceramic from expanding evenly. Is there a hazzard I need to guard against if I continue to use the forge in this condition? I have enough tiles to build three or four more fire boxes and a few ideas on how to build floating joints that would allow the ceramic to expand and contract evenly. I know there is an easier way to build one of these but now it's sort of a matter of pride and stuborness. The forge works great and I would hate to have to rebuild the fire box. Thanks, Will    Will - Tuesday, 03/27/07 01:37:39 EST Ok i thought WI had sparks that were much longer than CI...but both have few sparks. i could be wrong. The break test works well and ill cut a corner off next time....Chris topp wants 60 euro a square foot for 1/2 plate. are you freaking kidding me? I found a piece of plate i want. it looks like a tank from a steam engine or train car. it has rows of rivets holding the pieces together. Am i to assume that is wrought iron? it doesnt make sense that they would cast it.? Also when did mild steel come into existence, is any steel older than 1950 wrought iron?    coolhand - Tuesday, 03/27/07 07:01:24 EST Coolhand, Mild steel was experimented with in earnest in the 1860's and 1870's, and was in production before the turn of the 20th century, mainly via the Bessemer converter and the open hearth processes. The CI and WI sparks are distinct. Gray cast iron has almost invisible carrier lines in ordinary shop light. The lines are a dark red color, and you will get an occasional, irregular burst at the end of the shower. Wrought iron has a little brighter color, the carrier lines are fairly straight and have breaks with secondary branches and sprigs; no burstings. You'll sometimes see a dashes on the ends of the carrier lines. It's best to do the spark test in a darkened room, and with a light touch on the grinding wheel. Don't have the sparks bouncing off the tool rest. Always test an unknown to a known.    Frank Turley - Tuesday, 03/27/07 08:27:22 EST Micro Forge Problems: Will, The problem is probably the MAPP gas which burns at temperatures much higher than needed for a forge and much much higher than kiln refractories expect. Having refractory bound up too tight is also a no-no. Other than the forge falling apart there are no unusual hazzards. Fired foundry refractories (fire bricks) are resistant to temperatures much higher than kiln refractories (by about 1,000°F ~500°C).    - guru - Tuesday, 03/27/07 08:57:43 EST Spark Test: Note that the type of grinding wheel makes a difference. Small fine wheels like on a Dremel or die grinder often make soft fuzzy sparks from almost everything. To get those long tell-tale sparks a coarse wheel is needed. The coarse side of most bench grinders works well but other grinders need testing. And as Frank suggested it is good to test using samples of known materials as a reference. Plate was not a common form of wrought iron and is still not. The folks making it are using ancient hand fed machinery making very small lots at a time. Most of it is being sold for high dollar restorations. That piece of WI plate weighs 20 pounds and the cost is $4/lb. When scrap is costing over $1/lb and it must then be converted to a billet by heating in a large furnace then forge welded under a steam hammer then hand rolled in a two man operation . . . sounds like a fair price to me.    - guru - Tuesday, 03/27/07 09:14:24 EST Will: My experience with kiln furniture (plates, risers, blocks, etc.), from two years of ceramics classes, is that they are designed to work like everything else in the kiln- Heat up slowly and cool down slowly. It might just be that in the open air the plates are cooling to quickly and that is causing stress cracks. Just for reference the nominal cool-down time on our kilns at the college was something like 30 hours from a full-firing heat. We'd let them sit closed for the first 15 hours or so and then would open the lids about an inch for another 15 hours before finally opening all the way, and even then a well loaded kiln would still be warm inside. As the firing temperature went up, so did the cool-down time. My two pennies worth -Aaron @ the SCF    thesandycreekforge - Tuesday, 03/27/07 09:23:02 EST Would a coating of ITC be helpful with Wills situation? Not only for a problem solver but maybe as a repair as well. My 1 penny worth (I'm poor)    - Nippulini - Tuesday, 03/27/07 10:18:57 EST Coolhand. What do you need the 1/2" plate for? In general it is rare to find WI used after the depression in the USA, During the Depression there was a lot reused especially in rural areas due to not being able to afford new stock. After the depression a lot went into the war time scrap drives and new was only made for speciality use as it cost more than mild steel. Richardson's "Practical Blacksmithing" was written during the switch over in the 1880's and 1890's and has some discussion on the differences in working the "new" stuff vs WI Thomas    Thomas P - Tuesday, 03/27/07 12:04:24 EST ITC, Nip, I have used it as glue but it has not worked well on refractory furniture that has a tendency to come apart from heat. The heat reflecting properties would not help much in this situation.    - guru - Tuesday, 03/27/07 12:56:02 EST Makes sense. Hey, I just came back from the Phila. Racetrack stables. I have a customer who wants a horseshoe wreath. In all the stables all I could find was aluminum shoes with steel toes. I eventually found one of the farriers who gave me armloads of steel shoes. My question is, does aluminum REALLY make that much of a difference? The steel shoes he gave me don't seem that much heavier, but they are pretty thin. He liked my horeshoe ring I wear on my pinky, so he told me I have to make him a bunch of small shoes in exchange for the ones he gave me.    - Nippulini - Tuesday, 03/27/07 13:17:29 EST QUESTION FOR MR. HOFI: I know Mr. Hofi checks here somewhat regularly, So I am posting this in the hopes that he will see, or that someone else can answer for me. I've seen Mr. Hofi refer to the wood used for his hammer handles as "epea" but a search turns up little one "epea" and suggest a search on "ipe" instead. Is this the same wood? I ask because my brother works for an equipment rental place and they will occasionally re-deck a trailer with thick ipe decking (a pretty costly ordeal). He said he could probably grab me a handful of cutoffs, and I was wondering if this was the same wood. Thanks all, -Aaron @ the SCF    thesandycreekforge - Tuesday, 03/27/07 14:00:24 EST Will: If you are using kiln shelf for forge insulation, I am surprised you are even getting a usable heat. The stuff is a _conductor_ of heat... to promote even firing! I use it to line the floors of my forges, because it's also pretty dang tough as far as refractory materials go. Get some Kaowool from the Guru's store and line a bean can or a large mailbox with it. Stick one of your kiln shelves in the bottom and a burner in the side and go to town -- you will be stunned at the difference. And, no more cracking! Cloudy and cool in Kaneohe, Hawaii.    T. Gold - Tuesday, 03/27/07 14:25:37 EST Handle Wood: The wood used in the U.S. made hammers is Hickory from a North Carolina handle maker. It is much better than the stuff Hofi uses. One thing the America's have is first class hard wood. The truck body place in Lynchburg, VA used to use a mix of maple and hickory. They did not care much as long as it was dense hardwood. Small pieces were used and laminated up so that cut and possible warpage was not a problem. To grade handle wood is either cut from pieces split from the log or special select cuts that the grain is perfectly straight with the handle. Truck flooring is not particularly cut straight with the grain.    - guru - Tuesday, 03/27/07 14:42:23 EST Trading for Shoes: Nip, sounds like a bum deal. Most farriers will swamp you will old shoes if you ask for them. . . Aluminium weighs about 1/3 of steel. Take 2/3 of the shoe weight off a horse and it is bound to make a difference. Hey, this is RACING!    - guru - Tuesday, 03/27/07 14:46:07 EST Another horseshoe question. Receive a call asking if one of my horseshoe home decor items can be chrome plated. They are mild steel. I suspect answer is yes, but...    Ken Scharabok (Poor Boy) - Tuesday, 03/27/07 15:06:17 EST Sandy creek forge: The wood used for trailers that I have worked on is called "apitong" it is very tough wood & expensive.    ML - Tuesday, 03/27/07 16:21:01 EST Sandy creek forge: http://www.yvrforestry.com/products.html    ML - Tuesday, 03/27/07 16:22:40 EST AH HAH. I did a google image search and Apitong looks much more like what my brother got than the pictures of Ipe. I wonder if I should tell him.... I have a feeling the misunderstanding had something to do with Ipe being sold for residential decking maybe?? Maybe I'll make a handle out of the APITONG and do some scientific testing with it to see how it compares to one of my homemade hickory handles. Otherwise it might make a nice contrasting inlay with the poplar I have for a four-post bed frame that I promised my wife two years ago.... And yes, my brother did mention that it was rather expensive stuff:) Thanks ML -Aaron @ the SCF    thesandycreekforge - Tuesday, 03/27/07 18:13:44 EST Ken, Decorative chrome plate is actually a several step process. For a shiny smooth finish, first the product must be shiny and smooth. The plate follows the surface exactly. So once the surface suits, then the part is cleaned, and if I remember correctly a copper plate is applied, and buffed, followed by Nickel plate that is buffed and then the chrome that is buffed. Lots of hand work. But yes the parts can be chromed. Another possibility, if what you are after is a soft luster, and good weather protection is "Electroless nickel" This is a plate that is applied by dipping and is very conformal to the surface. Good weather protection, and it is much less labor intensive. Biggest drawback to any of the plates is that any weld cracks or pinholes may bleed rust. I have made ice blockers that take scrap ice particles from a comercial ice plant and compresses them to a solid block. The compression chamber was heavy wall square tube, and after all the machining and welding was complete, then the electroless nickel was put on and the chamber and door etc were rust proof and also had the usefull surface characteristic of being slicker than snot. They felt oiled even when chemically cleaned. And relatively cheap. I dealt with a shop in New Albany In. Called K & I Hardchrome. Good luck    ptree - Tuesday, 03/27/07 18:16:40 EST What chemical could I use on copper sheeting to give it a blueish apperance?    Janet - Tuesday, 03/27/07 18:37:04 EST Not long ago I cracked a brand-new kiln shelf floor in my forge. I think it was because I started it and immediately cranked it up to welding heat (impatient to see how hot the relined forge would get). I'm not sure if that was because I went straight to welding heat or because new kiln shelf isn't fully fired (or both). Anyway, I broke in the replacement floor with a few gentle heats on the replacement at first. I also bring the forge to a normal forging temperature before cranking it up to welding heat (usually not a problem, since I normally need to do some forging on a piece before I'm ready to weld anyway).    Mike BR - Tuesday, 03/27/07 18:54:20 EST Moisture is often the problem with cracking refractories. After a period of disuse a gas forge will give off considerable quantities of water and steam. It is one reason I build mine on bar grating. Water has a good place to drip out. If it steams out too fast things break.    - guru - Tuesday, 03/27/07 19:51:20 EST Wow!10 million!Who'd have thunk it back in '98?..Gawd,Jock,I hope they didn't all ask as many dumb questions as I did.As I have said many times before,you have infinite patience and I, for one, am very grateful for that.I have learned lots here and met many fine people.Congratulations and thank you for this wonderful site. Btw,shipment came thru sometime ago,a seamless procedure. thanks    dimag - Tuesday, 03/27/07 21:45:33 EST In those early days we were excited to get 3,000 hits in a month and averaged that for the first 8 months. Today we get twice that traffic in a day!    - guru Ex-Officio - Tuesday, 03/27/07 23:27:36 EST Nip, Big money in horse racing. The shoers on the track are specialists. They are not even called horseshoers or farriers. They are platers, and they nail on plates. That's what they call those aluminum shoes. I think on the big tracks, the plater must serve as an apprentice and eventually must pass a "Paddockmaster's Exam". The horses are normally trimmed to a short foot, so with a short foot and a thin "swaged" plate, the foot hits the ground quicker than if it had longer growth and a regular shoe. It leaves the ground faster, as well. Trainers are very particular about their choice of platers. Because the foot continuously grows downward and forward, an everyday riding horse gets the shoes pulled every 6 to 9 weeks, the feet get trimmed and the same shoes are often nailed back on, what we call a "reset". If the shoes are badly worn, new ones are nailed on. The trainers are so persnickety, that they might have a reset the day following the shoeing job. Maybe a week later. The thing is, the foot might be too long; the foot might be at the wrong angle as viewed from the side. Perhaps one plate is askew, the toe off center. Then that one plate gets pulled and corrected. There are other considerations, and it gets fairly involved. Of course, the plater is an easy scapegoat, if the horse doesn't do well on the track.    Frank Turley - Tuesday, 03/27/07 23:49:35 EST dearguru i have just started a amature forge in my back yard an i have made a few knifes but i want to start makeing folded steel ones but the problem is i cant figure out how to fold the steel please if you can tell me an if not thanks for trying    denny - Wednesday, 03/28/07 00:11:26 EST Janet: Cupric Nitrate acording to sculptnouveau.com    Leaf D - Wednesday, 03/28/07 00:22:02 EST Hello, I just finished your Gen X Swordsmith article in progress. Very good work. Book titles are always the first place I like to start, and you have got them in there! I didn't realize how naieve I was to the whole process... I think I will start with some bokken and wooden tantos. then maybe... maybe a knife. I just wanted to say from somebody that loves swords and has no idea how to make one, thanks.    - John Shepard - Wednesday, 03/28/07 01:57:09 EST WOW 10,000,000! That is cool. Must be a proud moment for those (Jock and others?) that started this awesome site. Congratulations. Mike    Mike Berube - Wednesday, 03/28/07 05:44:59 EST Guru What's with the Ex-Officio next to your name? Mike    Mike Berube - Wednesday, 03/28/07 05:45:58 EST MIke, Whoops. . never had that happen before. That is my CSI title used in board meetings. We add them after our names to help keep who is who sorted out for the secretary when editing the meeting minutes. Speaking of which, we desperately need more volunteer at-large board members and those willing to run for election.    - guru - Wednesday, 03/28/07 07:47:23 EST congratulations on 10^6. Looking through the archives, I'm amazed at the repetition in the questions that are asked which makes your dedication all the more impressive. So even though it may seem you've answered the same question 30 000 times, it is very much appreciated! You mentioned looking for board members. Is there need for technical assistance at all?    andrew - Wednesday, 03/28/07 08:09:31 EST Hello, I was wondering where I could find more information on different types of steel, what they can and should be used for, ect. Would the Machinery's Handbook be what I am looking for? and if so where is a good place to get one? Thank you very much for your time and help    ringo - Wednesday, 03/28/07 08:44:44 EST Sorry, another quick question, if a higher carbon content adds difficulty to welding the metal, does that include forge welding? Also, are folding metal and forge welding the same thing? Again thank you all for this great site and all the information that you all provide.    ringo - Wednesday, 03/28/07 08:49:17 EST Folded Steel: Denny, this is relatively simple if you can forge weld. You start with two types of steel in pieces about the same size, clamp tie or tack weld them together. Then heat, flux, heat some more, flux again if needed as it come up to welding heat then weld. Draw out to a convenient size to cut in half. Do not draw too much as this just adds to the amount of weld area. Then cut nearly through and "fold" at this hinge and weld again. Repeat the process as many times as you want. This will produce a fine layered steel with no pattern other than straight lines. This is good for many purposes. Creating patterns is an additional process. The color difference in the pattern is determined by carbon and alloy content of the steel. Nickel alloy steels are preferred as one of the steels as they show greater contrast between the two steels. There are more and less efficient ways to do the welding. Producing pieces that when welded more nearly form a cube are good because they hold the heat and the surface area welded is less than a long bar. Another method is to forge and weld narrow pieces to reduce the weld area. The amount of forging to reduce the steel to the desired shape between welds is huge and a power hammer is highly recommended. Otherwise you need helpers with sledge hammers. When you are finished you have mystery steel which has the same rules as Junk Yard Steel (see our FAQ). We have reviews of a number of books and videos on this process and I cannot recommend them strongly enough if this is what you are interested in.    - guru - Wednesday, 03/28/07 09:01:21 EST Wrought Prices: There was a complaint about the $4/lb price of English wrought plate from recycled iron. The price Lee Sauder is asking for small lot bloomery iron is $22/lb and that is probably cheap considering the labor involved.    - guru - Wednesday, 03/28/07 09:02:05 EST Steel Info, Machinery's Handbook, Welding: Ringo Machinery's Handbook is a fairly good reference for steels but it is so much more. See our reviews of Machinery's Handbook We have a number of copies from Paw-Paw's collection still for sale for $25 + $5 S&H (in the US). These include a 15th, 13th and 10th edition. All are in fair to good condition. There are better books on steel but they are specialized, expensive and rare. You almost never find used copies of the ASM handbooks which go into great detail. There is high carbon and very high carbon steel. Medium to high carbon steels (less than 1% C) have lower melting points than low carbon steel thus are easier to achieve a forge welding heat. However overheating high carbon steels is bad and the very high carbon are also usually alloy steels which tend to break down and crumble at high heats. High carbon steels should also be worked in a narrower range than lower carbon steels so you work them hot, near their forge welding temperature and then not as low as a red. You can go by feel as the steel gets stiff quickly at heats lower than recommended for forging. Ringo and Denney, You both need to see our Sword Making FAQ resources list. As John Shepard pointed out, book titles are a good place to start. John, S. Thanks, few people get to the resources list. It actually was more work to compile than the rest. I am trying to get reviews of the rest of the books listed put together.    - guru - Wednesday, 03/28/07 09:24:21 EST I have heard many of the farriers (OK platers) at race tracks have vet degrees and annual earnings of $100K aren't unusual for the better ones. Several years ago I hauled hay to a stables southwest of Nashville. They trained Olyimpic (sp?) quality jumpers. Noted on most of the stalls the farrier was listed as Dr. So and So.    Ken Scharabok (Poor Boy) - Wednesday, 03/28/07 11:24:36 EST "The Hoof *is* the Horse" and when you are talking multimillion dollar horses that fellow better be top notch! Thomas    Thomas P - Wednesday, 03/28/07 12:48:36 EST There are some quality farriers on the harness tracks, as well. There you have trotters and pacers, two separate gaits to contend with, and you're trying to keep the horses from breaking into a gallop. I've swaged and hand turned shoes for pacers, and while I was under a horse working, the trainer was looking over my shoulder about 80% of the time. Picky, picky, and they have a right to be.    Frank Turley - Wednesday, 03/28/07 14:19:30 EST how times must have changed. i have never heard of a DVM moonlighting as a farrier. lots of things change after one walks away from the profession.....    - RetVet - Wednesday, 03/28/07 15:03:15 EST I think it is a status thing. It is a farrier with a DVM degree not a DVM shoeing horses. On the other hand there are a few farriers that do amazing things curing founder and repairing hoof problems that as recently as 10 years ago vets were putting horse down for.    - guru - Wednesday, 03/28/07 15:50:43 EST allright i wasnt complaining about the price of wrought im just saying i aint gonna be the guy who pays for it.....i am making some porch post feet and was going to try and making something funky like six or eight snakes as the feet. So i thought i would find some wrought plate, cut the feet out and forge....now i know the price of wrought im re-tooling. i have a bunch of 5/8 round wrought so im thinking of using that and doing some sort of wacky forge weld where all the pieces meet up under the post..OR im gonna make it out of steel plate and paint the darn thing.    coolhand - Wednesday, 03/28/07 16:27:11 EST NOT painting wrought: The worlds last hold out on wrought being rust resistant is the folks selling it just as it was 75 years ago. Wrought rusts just as bad as steel, it just rusts differently. If you read the care instructions on the wrought iron site they recommend cleaning and painting every 3 years or so after annual inspections and touchups. Since a GOOD paint job on steel lasts 20 years there is something really wrong with their recommendations. Keep steel painted with annual inspections and touchup and it will never rust. If seen fences with wrought pickets rusted in two and gates with paint shells around where wrought USED to be. Neither wrought or the modern CORE-10 are substitutes for a good paint job over clean steel. SOOoooooo . .. where is the advantage? Only that it is wrought and very soft and easy to work in some cases. Mild steel is much more forgiving AND much stronger. I've worked on wrought fences that felt like they were made out of lead they were so soft. The problem was they were not doing a good job of self support and were bent up pretty bad. Extra supports had to be put in where in mild steel it would have been plenty strong.