WELCOME to the anvilfire Guru's Den - V. 3.0

THIS is a forum for questions and answers about blacksmithing and general metalworking. Ask the Guru any reasonable question and he or one of his helpers will answer your question, find someone that can, OR research the question for you. This is an archive of posts from April 1 - 7, 2006 on the Guru's Den

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I havn't seen many power hammers, but seeing John Larson's 160# Iron Kiss move metal is enough to make Me want one. The 100#er was sitting on an uneven concrete floor when I saw it, so He didn't run it much or hard.

Dave Boyer - Saturday, 04/01/06 01:30:36 EST

Hi Hi I'm a student of metallurgical & materials engineering in University of engineering and technology, Lahore (Pakistan). Our final year project is to make a "gas fired melting furnace" it may be cast iron or steel or any other meterial like brass etc.etc. our main purpose is to use a recuperator for recycling. I want some references books. If some body can send me books or links of the sites from where i can pick these books, ill be very thank ful for this.. Any suggession to our project will be appreciated. thanx i want to know how i can manufacture a ceramic tube for a gas fired melting furnace. Also tell me about some links of ebooks for heat recuperators. Ill be very thankful to sir Guru for helping me in my final year project. As you know that a student can't affored too many costly books....so plz tell me links from where i may collect data about our project for free. Ill be very thankful for this . bye

yamin - Saturday, 04/01/06 05:30:49 EST

Burnt Forge: well, you've encouraged me to try drawing out the peen on a hand hammer blank on my anvil. From Guru's and Ries's discussion it appears to do it by power hammer would require a machine way too large for me to want to acquire [afford], install, and maintain. I will take a 1 1/2" sq piece of 4140 to Camp Verde next time I go and see about the smaller hammer,but my hopes are significantly dimmed now. Just as well. I can't really visualize a way for my flypress to do that job efficiently, but I can see where it would punch the hole for the handle with intelligent use.

Ellen - Saturday, 04/01/06 10:56:16 EST

Small power hammers; Ellen its worth bearing in mind that a 33 lb hammer is striking at 240 blows min (4 blows a second is pretty quick!), so it will shift alot more metal than you think - Ive necked down 1" + diameter bars no problem on a 33lb hammer with flat die blocks - put in a fullering die & it will do more. As I understand it there is a big difference between the blow energy of mechanical hammer & a pneumatic hammer for the given 'nominal' weight rating. (there are very few mechanical hammers in the UK so i have little hands on experience) You can have a 'guestimate' at the ammount of energy you put into the forging per min / heat or whatever based on the blow energy x blows per min. This makes quite a good comparison basis between hammers. A forging will also hold its heat better when its being worked hard under a power hammer as you are effectivly transfering energy into the work piece. (one of my customers forges 5 kgs lumps of platinum under a 550kg Massey self contained pneumatic and the material is visibly hotter after forging!) In my opinion you get a lot more hammer for not a lot more money with the 55lb anyang / striker

John N - Saturday, 04/01/06 11:28:22 EST

Yamin, I hink a few people have already given you some pointers if you scroll up the page a bit. If you are a student at an engineering & technology university you must have a huge infomation resource there? - Libraries dont usually charge for books ! (unless your late returning them :)

John N - Saturday, 04/01/06 11:59:08 EST

Hi, As a newbie to blacksmithing I recently bought an anvil. However, the hardie hole is too small. I need to make each of the square hole's dimensions 1/2 an inch larger. Should I use a gas cutter to make the hole bigger? I am concerned at loosing the temper of the surface. Will this work? Does anyone have any bright ideas? Apppreaciate your help Cheers TOm

tom2dads - Saturday, 04/01/06 12:17:38 EST

Ellen, sorry, I left out the point of the blows per minute as John noted when I commented on how hard a small hammer hits. If you compare blow to blow they DO NOT. But they hit the work many times faster than a human. Even a team of strikers would have a hard time keeping up. However, THEY have the advantage of hitting much harder per each blow. If you want to make a few hammers for yourself the little 33 pound hammer will do just fine. You can also punch the eye under it quite well. If you want to make them to sell then you would be making very expensive hammers.

- guru - Saturday, 04/01/06 12:44:42 EST

Tom 2dads, your hardy hole is not too small, your hardies are too big! That's not a joke answer, by the way. I've seen anvils with hardy holes everywhere from 1/2" to 1.5 inches. They are sized proportionally to the anvil's mass. Enlarging them can make the anvil weaker at the hole. Using a torch on it will wreck the temper and give you a really nasty hole with slag too hard to file. The solution, then, is to forge or grind down the hardy shank to fit the anvil instead of the other way round.

Alan-L - Saturday, 04/01/06 12:52:36 EST

Hardy Hole: Tom, DO NOT cut the hole bigger make your tool shanks smaller. There are lots of reasons why. 1) Most anvils have as big a hole in them as they can stand EXCEPT some very old possibly valuable antique anvils. Modern anvils have a hole that is as big as the designer thought the anvil could take without possibly weakening the heel too much. If it is an antique anvil with a 1/2" hardy hole then it would an atrocity to take a torch to it. You could sell the antique and get a modern anvil with a 1" hardy hole and have money left over. . . 2) A cutting torch COULD do the job but unless you are very practiced expert the result would be a huge mess possibly wrecking the anvil. Torches are fast enough that heat damage is marginal IF done properly. However, even in the hands of an expert the hole is going to be rough and out of square and would require many hours of chisling, filing, grinding and then probably STILL be out of square. 3) Except among the most modern anvils there is no real "standard" hardy hole. On old anvils almost every size had a different hole in 1/16th inch or 1mm increments. Thus you will find old shanked tools with all those various sizes. The nearest thing to a standard hole size it the modern broached 1" hole (Nimba, Euroanvils, Peddinghaus . .). 4) Most tools with shanks much larger than 1" are either fairly rare OR may be sheet metal stakes with tapered shanks which SHOULD NOT be put in most anvils. The taper may wedge in the anvil and damage it OR using the tool with its long overhang may break the anvil. Specail holders are mode for these OR they can be put in a stump. Recommendations: 1) If its an antiqe anvil have it appraised, if it is worth more than a new anvil with the hole size you want then sell and buy new. 2) Reduce the shank of the tool you want to use in the anvil. Forge, or grind, or torch (last choice). 3) Make a stake or hardy shank holder. See our Stakes and Bolsters iForge demo. This is less dificult than trying to oversize the hole in an anvil and if you screw it up you haven't wrecked a good tool. 4) If it is a sheet metal stake tool either do the above OR find a good stump and anchor it in the stump. You have 3 choices, drill hole and wedge, carve hole to fit, drill oversize and bed in with bondo or epoxy.

- guru - Saturday, 04/01/06 13:10:32 EST

NOTE: All the above applies to REAL anvils, not cast iron ASO's. You cannot torch cut cast iron to any degree of cleanliness or accuracy.

- guru - Saturday, 04/01/06 13:14:10 EST

John & Guru, thanks for the additional power hammer information. I would NOT be making hammers for sale. Maybe a couple for Christmas gifts. I really don't want to try making my smithing into a profitable business at this stage of my life. I already have a trade that pays the bills. Smithing is a fun hobby. I do sell some things, esp. at Christmas time in the Western line of coat hangers, hat hangers, towel racks, rattlesnakes, but it is far from being a business. Just trying to expand my learning horizons and skills where I can, and have fun doing so. Don't drink, don't smoke, don't party, don't buy fancy clothes; drive used pick up trucks; my extravagences are keeping my horses and my smithing. Don't watch much TV, when I do it is a documentary or a "how to" on doing things....grin! Recently discovered the UMBA library that sells smithing DVDs or VHS tapes for $5 apiece so that is my current TV viewing, at the end of the working day.

Ellen - Saturday, 04/01/06 13:17:22 EST

Power Hammer Sizes Revisited: My point is that less than 100 pounds IS NOT big enough for a commercial shop doing archetectural or furniture work as its primary hammer. In this range you need a 100 to 200 pound hammer. In this size range the BigBLU is less expsnsive INCLUDING a 7.5HP air compressor than a Chinese hammer of the aproximately the same size. Good Mechanical hammers hit harder than air hammers of the same size providing you could find two with the same ram weight. This is due to the higher velocity of the ram at contact. Properly adjusted mechanicals are accelerating the ram all the way up to and past the contact point. Air hammers must reverse the air flow far in advance of strikings and are in fact slowing down at that point. In fact mechanicals also run faster than self contained air hammer. A 25# LG strikes 437 times per minute, a 50# 328 and a 100# 275. Fairbanks and Bradleys ran faster but at reduced stroke. Compare this to 240 for the Chinese 33#, 245/210 for the 88# and 210 for the 165#. The problem comparing power hammers is that it has always been comparring apples and oranges. First you have the different ram weights, then the different operating charateristics, then efficiencies and no good test method. Theoretical values often are a reach and often fail to take efficiency into consideration. In the early part of the 20th century they tried to use the lead plug method. ONE blow to a specific size lead plug and the rating determined by the amount of compression. However, this only works when comparing mechanicaly similar machines. You could compare two steam hammers but not a steam hammer self contained hammer or a mechanical hammer or a hydraulic press. CHANGE: Where the market for the small hammer is going to change drasticaly in the next few years is someone is going to design and build a really great mechanical hammer and have it made somewhere where it can be made inexpensively (such as China or Central America). Mechanicals hit harder, faster and are much more energy efficient requiring less than HALF the horsepower to do the same job. They are also quiet. The best mechanicals had stroke, height and speed adjustments making them very flexible machines. The poor clutch design and other short cuts in ancinet Little Giants gave mechanicals a bad reputation but a modern hammer can be MUCH better. Mechanicals are already being made in Italy (too expensive) and India (too primitive) and DIY (too variable, poor design and QC). This is a big change from a few years ago when none were being made. I've priced manufacturing them in the US and there are just too many parts (labor intensive). But there are less parts and they are much simplier than a self contained air hammer. They are more material efficient the mass going where it should. So they SHOULD be able to be made for less AND they have that lower HP advantage. When you can plug in a 120 pound (55 kilo) hammer in the same power source as a little 33 pound (15 kilo) OR a hammer equal to the 33 pound hammer in a light socket (no 3PH or 220VAC needed) . . . THAT is a huge advantage. It will come.

- guru - Saturday, 04/01/06 13:41:26 EST

Ellen power hammer Check with John Fee. He has made a couple really nice small air hammers and can tell you how to do it.

- Burnt Forge - Saturday, 04/01/06 19:49:42 EST

What type of bearings do LGs have in the spring mechanism? Wgat type should they have?

Bob G - Saturday, 04/01/06 20:04:06 EST

LG Bearings: Many of the early LG working parts had no bearings, just steel on iron, except the crank arm which was a bronze part. Late LG's had pressed in bronze bearings in the toggle arms (dovetail guide type). Most early types can benifit from being over bored just enough for 1/16" wall bronze bearings IF the holes in the parts are concentric enough. Often the holes in the parts were too excentric to stand thinning the walls. Also check the pins. If they are worn then they should be replacd to fit the new bushings. The early ram toggle sockets were cast in and there is no bearing. The biggest mistake made on LG's is improper lubrication. There are oil holes in the toggle ends and the ram. Often there is an attempt to grease these OR they get painted over and clogged. Look for them and clean them. These are oil twice a day (minimum) parts. The LG clutch bearings are different and their bearings came with grease cups or zirc fittings. The clutch lining however is oiled as well. If an LG is not soaked with oil then it has not been lubricated enough. Black was a common color for early machines because they had open plain bearings that dripped black oil. This did not show badly on a black machine. Note that LG's will run very well with badly worn bearings. However, you start to lose fine control as they wear. Plain bearings in this type of machine can take a LOT of slop. The main crank bearings are designed to have the main bearing caps lowered an 1/8 to 3/16" before the babbit is replaced. That is a lot of wear and a lot of re-shimming. A lot of folks are rebuilding these machines today when they are far from needing it.

- guru - Saturday, 04/01/06 20:57:35 EST

Cheers, I'm thinking of Buying a Samuel Platt Hercules or Goliath hammer, these are a British version of the LG. Hopefully the above info will be of some use. Bob G.

Bob G - Saturday, 04/01/06 21:11:17 EST

hello fellow smiths. a few days ago i wrote about two cyl. that i have and maybe there too big to use,well now i have four hyd.cyls with 3 inch bore 2 inch stroke and 1 inch rod. could i build either a hammer with a lever action or a planisioning hammer. a small power hammer would work very well for me, any ideas? thanks fred

fred - Saturday, 04/01/06 22:01:36 EST

I've been looking at the Beudey hammer mechanism and it seems quite simple. I assume the 2 arms of the con rod flex to compensate for the varying thickness of the workpiece. Would this be a good design to use for a home built mechanical hammer?

Bob G - Saturday, 04/01/06 23:18:23 EST

Ellen, I think that you'd find that the 33# hammer might be fine for a lot of what you do, but a slightly bigger one would be better. You can do small work on a big hammer, but not the other way around. I'd recommend looking at a 55# or even a 88 pound, if I was going to spend the money for a self-contained. Since I don't have that kind of money, I built myself a Kinyon-style 65# hammer. My 65# does just fine on stock up to 2", and possibly larger, but I've never tried anything bigger than 2". On 1-1/2" stock, it moves it about as fast as I can reasonable keep up with. Mine runs at around 220 bpm, which is a speed I can just about handle. It will go slower, of course, if I need it to. I will disagree with Jock on one thing about air hammers, at least the Kinyon-type. The hammer head is still accelerating as it contacts the work, it is NOT slowing down. Theair circuit doesn't change direction until the tup stops, which equalizes the pressure on both sides of the circuit, allowing the spring in the spool valve to cycle the spool. The only place it changes air ahead of the tup is on the upstroke changing to down. Then, the air is reversed and the tup takes another inch or so of travel to get stopped and start down. The Mark Linn/AFC air circuit may be different; I'm not really clear on how it is plumbed, so I can't comment. But the Kinyon circuit has the tup under constant acceleration down until the work is contacted and the tup is stopped. This actually makes it feel to me as though it is delilvering more blow than a comparable weight mechanical. This is based on the 50# LG that I ran a couple times, so that may not be a fair comparison.

vicopper - Saturday, 04/01/06 23:36:42 EST

Bob, The British version may be better. The LG design was to get around other's patents that may not have been in force overseas. The Beaudry mechanism is more complex than it may seem. The spring arms bear against two rollers that run in cam shaped tracks. The tracks give the effect of the Dupont patent toggle linkage (Fairbanks, Bradley, Little Giant) without the toggles. In effect both linkages have infinite leverage at the middle of the stroke that increases towards both ends. This allows the ram to accelerate quickly and easily past the center and not see spring force until it is needed. The best current DIY mechanical design is the NC-JYH or "Tire Hammer" invented by Ray Clontz. This uses a toggle linkage but could also use a leaf spring linkage. The advantage to the leaf spring linkage is that it reduces the pivots by two and is generally simpler.

- guru - Saturday, 04/01/06 23:43:03 EST

I guess I fall in the oldtimers group (60's). I am on the west coast of the U.S. About 30 years ago an acquaintance showed me a piece of prospecting equipment he had. I was made of all cast iron. He called it a hand operated ball mill. It consisted of a cast iron bowl about 12" in diameter and 10" deep with hollow post coming up in the middle. It most resembled a Jello mold or angel food cake pan in shape. The second piece of the item was a post with three arms coming off at 120 degrees apart and going down to three round balls that were from 2" to 3" in diameter. Finally, on top of the three arms was a crank arm similar to the arm of an old hand coffee grinder. This crank/ball unit was all one piece. You could put in walnut size or smaller pieces of broken rock and in a very short time it would be reduced to a very fine powder for mineral testing. I would guess that the unit weighed approximately 30 lbs. I have looked for years now and never seen another unit of that type. I would very much appreciate any info you might be able to find on this item for me. I have a number of questions including; who were makers, when were they made, where might I find any (new or used/antique), what kind of rarity/value do they have today? Thanks for any help. Bill.

Bill - Sunday, 04/02/06 05:43:57 EDT

To me powerhammers are somewhat apples and oranges when you consider the part-time or hobbiest to the full-time professional ornamental blacksmith. What is a suitable hammer for one is unlikely to be for the other. As noted above, Spare Tire mechanical and Kinyon-style airhammers (and perhaps a 25-LB manufactured one) would, in all likelihood, be better suited to the part-time or hobbiest on just cost alone. At group building workshops the spare time one runs about $1,400 assembled. The price of the SOF&A Kinyon-style workshop next weekend is $1,000. (Prices exclude travel, lodging, meals, etc.) The spare time one are pretty well ready to use. The Kinyon-style do require a suitable compressor, but far smaller than any of the larger professionally build ones. Here prices are low because the labor is essentially owner-provided. If the same hammers were built for sale I suspect prices would at least in the $2000-3500 range, putting them out of consideration for a large part of the intended market. Out-sourcing manufacturing isn't likely to bring down cost much. A local ornamental smith has a large self-contained one. However, near it is a 25-lb LG for fine work and a KA-75 for gig-work. For example if he is putting on a flame shape to the top of a bar he can quickly draw it to shape and then one blow of the KA-75 with suitable top and bottom dies puts in the curves.

Ken Scharabok - Sunday, 04/02/06 08:51:44 EDT

Air Hammers; sorry jock, ive got to disagree with you about the blow velocity on self contained air hammers - at full work the ram is still accelerating to strike 'past' the work piece. The point of the ram swithching from down to up is adjusted by steady pressure on the foot treadle - ie a very light blow is obtained by having the 'switchover' early (ie the ram changing direction mid stroke) with the full work position the ram changes direction (theoretically)'past' the forging. We use a velocity recorder to measure the blow energy of our hammers, which basically has a spring loaded cable attached to the ram - this is then plotted on to a graph (which resembles a sine wave) - we then measure off the angle of the 'wave' and calc the velocity from that. Its also a common misconception that the air 'switches' over on a self contianed hammer (like on a kinion type circuit)- infact the front & back pistons reciprocate at the same frequency (ie 240 / min-1 on a 33lb), and the valving just throttles off some (or all, on none!) of the air. We occasionally use the lead deformation test to calculate the blow energy of double acting pneumatic stamping hammers (similar to the ceco dieforgers)- though I question the validity of this test when measuring a fast running open die hammer.

John N - Sunday, 04/02/06 09:24:41 EDT

Bill: That sounds like it is related to the "Hardgrove grindability" apparatus. We use a small one to measure the "Hardgrove grindability index" of coal. The "Hardgrove grindability index" is a measure of the energy required to grind a ton of coal for use in a powdered coal burner of a utillity boiler. Ours is powered, but I have heard they were made for hand operation too. I have only used it on coal and don't realy know how it would work on harder material. Try googling "Hardgrove Grindability" or similar combinations.

- John Odom - Sunday, 04/02/06 09:25:41 EDT

Guru - is that a challenge for me to design a new type of hammer then ?? :)

John N - Sunday, 04/02/06 10:31:02 EDT

so how can I use one of these cylinders for a small hammer. a new type of hammer GURU maybe I could build it with one of my cylinders, give it a try, i'll keep reading these pages. thanks so much. fred H

fred H - Sunday, 04/02/06 10:58:44 EDT

I don't think there is a need to reinvent the wheel on powerhammers as much as to recognize a potential market for a mass-produced, down & dirty, aimed at the hobby or part-time blacksmith. 35-pounds may be a good compromise. Perhaps something with a hollow anvil support the buyer is required to fill with scrap iron and molten lead for the weight/mass.

Ken Scharabok - Sunday, 04/02/06 11:08:24 EDT

John, We don't need a new 'type' of mechanical hammer. Just about every variation that could be tried was tried and there were only a couple that suceeeded. What we need is an economicaly built machine using modern materials and methods. If the Chinese can build a complicated self contained air hammer for $2/pound they could build a mechanical hammer for the same or less. The problem is the engineering, dies and patterns and R&D on a practical machine. What made Little Giant sucessful was they had a OK machine that sold for less. However today's artist blacksmith demands more. They want an easy to control hammer for less. If you compare parts, anvil, ram, cylinder, compressor piston, 2nd cylinder, crank, bearings, connecting rod, wrist pin, rings, seals, flanges, pulley, valves and linkage, to a mechanical hammer they are about equal in number and complexity. Motor size is 1/2 for mechanicals. Overall weight even with a 15:1 anvil is the same. However, the mechanical hammer is generaly more compact not needing a large second cylinder. They are taller due to mechanism length. The last very low production Fairbanks hammers were built like the best machine tools of the 1950's with heavy tapered guide adjustments. I have seen only two of these hammers and should have gone into debt to purchase them. . . This is no longer an affordable design but new materials in the form of plastics have created some wonderful guide bearing materials. One complaint many have about mechanicals is the spring and the hazzard of their failure. However, Bradley built springless hammers using a rubber block. Although this would seem to be high maintenance there are many 75 year old Bradleys with the original rubbers and those that have been replaced have only been replaced once in a 100 year lifetime. The trick is low displacement to do the job. There is also the "rubber band" hammer, a design a friend of mine and I came up with. Instead of springs and toggles it uses rubber bands. There are no pivot bearings and the dynamics are the same as the Dupont linkage. The only question is how would heat generated by the bands effect the life/performance. The "bands" would be made from commonly available elastomer tubing so that they would not be a special part. We never prototyped this design but I know it will work. However, the rubber might have to be substituted for nylon. Bradley may have had the better design. . . Other things lacking in the old hammers (as well as some new). Mechanical guards and OSHA treadle guards. LG's did not have a brake which many find useful. As to real velocities on mechanicals the fellow that had the real numbers on LG's (did the research) was Dave Manzer and he is gone now.

- guru - Sunday, 04/02/06 11:49:14 EDT

Ken, The problem with a small hammer is the economy of scale. Bigger is cheaper per pound. Why build a 35# hammer when you can have a #100 for only the difference in cost of materials? Trip air (Anyone remember them?) made a nice little 35# hammer and did poorly in the market. The original Bull and the Old Blue had 75 pound rams and also disappeared from the market largely because they could build a heavier hammer for proportionaly less. The market demanded a larger hammer. The 25 pound Little Giant is as common as it is because it was sold for one purpose, to draw out disk plows. Tens of thousands were sold to farmers fo this purpose. They are suitable for other blacksmith jobs but within their capacity. As Vicopper pointed out, you can do small jobs with a big hammer but it is very difficult to do big jobs with a small hammer. You have to run a 100-150 pound hammer to realize that you can you do just as delicate work with that size hammer as a 25 but can also do some serious forging.

- guru - Sunday, 04/02/06 12:07:46 EDT

Fred, Every time That 2" stroke is a problem. You need some allowance at the ends of the stroke so the real working travel is only 1-1/2". You can use a stroke multiplier but the cylinder force goes up proportionaly. At double the stroke you need twice the pressure OR can move half as much. For planishing they use small high speed hammers. To get high speeds they use port and piston valving, not a seperate unit. You hydraulic cylinders are designed for slow operation. With that short stroke I would use them for powering a vise or other automatic clamping system. They are good for all kinds of things but not particularly an air hammer.

- guru - Sunday, 04/02/06 12:19:15 EDT

Not to start an agrument or offend anyone, but just to offer some thoughts which may or may not have validity. I wonder if the smaller hammers did not make it because of timing. Perhaps they were simply introduced too soon, before there were as many [knowledgeable] hobby smiths as there are today. The larger hammers may be less per pound, but the cost of steel is rising quite fast (like doubled in the last year according to my experience) that it becomes significant, and the lower cost per pound may not be true for long. Then, there is the added cost of freight, which is substantial now, and the added cost of rigging to move the machine, added cost for an enhanced foundation and electrical power supply. Plus a need for additional shop space to house the larger hammer. An anolgy: a person goes to the grocery store to buy meat for her and her husband. She can get a nice roast for $4.00 per pound, and two or two and a half pounds will feed them both with a couple of lunch sandwiches left over. However, she can buy 30# of roast (in one big piece) for only $2.00 per pound. So she can be out $8 or $10 dollars or $60 dollars. $60 is six times more than $10. Sure, the extra meat can be used ......eventually, after being cut, frozen, and used before freezer burn. But is it needed? So, perhaps the average hobby smith works mostly with 1/2" stock, maybe occasionally stretch it to 1 1/2" to make a specialized tool, and that for only 2" of linear forging. I wonder if he really needs or can afford the cumulative expense of a 150# hammer? Perhaps that difference is the difference between having a hammer and not having a hammer. And, it may be possible to save a tidy sum by building a small hammer, but perhaps the time and knowledge are not there. If you spend 200 hours to save $2,500 in your hammer, but also spend $1,000 in materials, your time just became worth $7.50 per hour. Illegal gardeners in this area get paid more than that to dig holes, plant trees and shrubs, clean up your yard, etc. So hammer size becomes a question of need vs. want. YMMV.

Ellen - Sunday, 04/02/06 12:59:03 EDT

I would also like to point out that not all hobby types and part timers are necessarily broke- some of the fanciest shops I have ever seen have been hobby shops. Its true that a real pro can justify a 300lb Nazel with 10 grand worth of foundation work, but I know quite a few hobby types with VERY expensive tools. In fact, I know a guy who has more tools than just about anyone- a 10,000 sq ft industrial building, 5 forklifts, a dozen anvils, 5 powerhammers ranging up to well over 500lbs, along with literally dozens of other machine tools- and he is a retired tinkerer. I know a few hobby types who own Holtzappfel ornamental turning lathes worth well over 100,000$. Very few of the blacksmiths I know make back in income anywhere near what they spend on tools. So I tend to think that a good looking, well designed, medium weight (60-100lb) mechanical hammer would sell in modest numbers- say a couple hundred a year- even if it cost as much as a chinese air hammer- say 5 to 7 grand. A lot of people dont NEED a hammer, but WANT one. And currently pay $2500 to $5000 for used hammers that dont always work very well. More than one guy has had to sell a Nazel because of high repair costs. After all, an awful lot of guys somehow come up with $500 every month to pay for 1 ton dually 4 door pickups that never see a load in the bed...

- Ries - Sunday, 04/02/06 13:37:49 EDT

Ellen, Actually Ries point is generally more correct. The largest part of the market today is hobbiests that have more money to put into tools than many professionals. . . Then the manufacturers point is to make the ONE size hammer that makes the most people happy. Then you have to have a proper perspective. Last week you had the hots for a 500 pound anvil when a 200 pound anvil would do you nicely. Same with power hammers, there is that MORE POWER aspect as well as "the bigger the better". We haven't even mentioned the REALLY nifty things you can do with a 500 pound hammer or up! Ahhhhh. . did you feel the Earth move?

- guru - Sunday, 04/02/06 15:40:33 EDT

Guru, I have this problem. I ask questions. A lot of questions. I learn by asking as well as by doing. I learned a 200# anvil is actually probably "overkill" and if I simply make a proper stand for it I will stand in awe of what it will do. Francis Whitaker apparently thought 150# in an anvil was all he ever needed. Same thing with power hammers. I throw out ideas, ask questions, try to get an informed discussion going, and I learn....a lot....in the process. Probably some other folks learn too, who don't want to come forward and ....gasp...ask questions in public. Don't mean to offend, or sound "flighty" but I am curious about a lot of things. I'd be a fool not to take advantage of the hundreds of years of cumulative experience here by not asking questions. I'm not too smart, but I'm not a fool. Grin! Before I spent my money on a flypress I watched a good DVD on the use of one, and went to an all day flypress workshop with a skilled user of flypresses. I also watched the Clifton Ralph tapes. Read the iForge demos. Asked a lot of questions. Got a lot of answers. Thus, my decision to get a flypress was an informed one. Which took me close to a year to arrive at. Once I purchased the flypress, I took a 3 day class on toolmaking for it. Learned an incredible amount. Wouldn't have learned as much had I not asked some, if not dumb, at least ignorant, questions. Folks emailed me pictures of flypress work in process, of tooling, and one kind soul sent me a beautiful piece of heavy, curved steel to make a perfect bottom swage out of....which I did and have pictures posted of. Now I know exactly what steel to look for to make other swages, and forcers, and punches. And I have found a local source to shop at that carries it. This wonderful site has advanced my knowledge immensely, and I am most grateful, and supportive. I just ask a lot of questions. Probably always will. It's always been my nature. I was a curious girl and haven't changed except for a few laugh lines (wrinkles?) and a couple of extra pounds.

Ellen - Sunday, 04/02/06 16:09:41 EDT

In another, earlier, incarnation, with a wholly different cell-structure (it gets replaced every seven years, you know), before falling under the spell of all that coal smoke at Turley Forge that made me homesick in the early 1970s and becoming a full-time welder and smith, making monumental sundials, gates, etc., I spent more than 30 years as a newspaper (old Washington D.C. Evening Star) and national magazine (LIFE, People, Smithsonian, etc.) reporter and writer. I covered cops, crooks, crime, sports, politics, science (including a few Nobel winners), and all-around one-dead, two-injured general assignment. My experience is that only second-raters dodge a question by hiding behind calling it dumb. The dumbest questions sometimes unlocked the whole thing. Top people in their fields LOVE to talk about their work, taking the time to explain it in great detail, even to (ewwww!) a reporter. The dumbest questions are the most important ones-- where are we, anyway, and why? Howcum apples fall down instead of up? How big is big enough and how can we tell? Etc., etc., world without end, amen.

Miles Undercut - Sunday, 04/02/06 19:53:18 EDT

On a powerhammer perspective it appears one's background can largely influence it. If you are trained to be a professional using professional tools, then it is about the analogy of if your only tool is a hammer you tend to see all problems as nails. In this case a down-sized professional hammer. I am a cobbler and thus operate from the perspective of what it would take to get the job done. In this case it would be to pretty well start with a blank sheet of paper and design from there. That's primarily why I feel the concept of a spare tire or Kinyon-style hammer would meet the requirements of the predominate number of hobby or part-time smiths. I believe the workshop cost for a spare tire hammer is $1,400, and probably a portion of that is for the instructors compensation and expenses. SOF&A's cost for the Kinyon-style airhammer workshop is $1,000 and I am pretty sure that is material cost, plus possible shop rental from SOF&A. Even if you double those costs for labor, end price is still less than $3K for a spare tire one and $2K for the Kinyon-style. And those are without the benefit of bulk purchasing or established assembly line production with various jigs and fixtures. Say someone made and sold three a month at an average net of $1K. That's $36K a year. Not great, but not all that bad either if a part-time operation. Question seems not to be so much as the cost but whether or not there is a potential market for them.

Ken Scharabok - Sunday, 04/02/06 20:41:47 EDT

Ken, the problem with many of the DIY hammers is they scrimp on the the anvil mass. They CAN be almost as good as a professional hammer if built well and have enough anvil mass. The Kinyon plans called for a piece of pipe with a lump of steel at the top like many treadle hammers. This puts a huge amount of force into your floor, stain on the frame AND noise in you ears while doing less work than it could. Our friend Kiwi built a Bull style hammer with a pipe anvil. He could pick it up and carry it on his shoulder when it was time to put his equipment in the garage at the end of the day! It made unbelievable noise and did not forge steel very well. But it was VERY portable! Now THAT is a design that I would like to see come back, the original Bull. It had a very small foot print, was short so material could pass over it and did a big hammer job. Its failing was a bad guide bearing design and poor manufacturability (mostly of the same guide bearing).

- guru - Sunday, 04/02/06 21:59:43 EDT

One more anology. People ask me about antique firearms because I have built replicas of them from scratch, and fixed a pile of rusty scrap parts into a nice finished piece. I had a friend, no longer with us, who collected firearms. His collection grew and his zeal for collecting was immense. He acquired along the way the Thompson sub machine gun used by Edward G. Robinson in "Little Caesar". Also the Lewis gun used by Gary Cooper in "As the Bell Tolls". Antique weapons, WWI weapons, machine guns from all sides, ditto WWII, ditto Korea, cannons, a T34 tank, and a Korean war era Mig, Sabre Jet, and a Vietnam era Phantom F4. And other items too extensive to list. He bought a large building, endowed it, and there his collection sits today. Now if someone asks me about a muzzle loading flintlock shotgun, should I tell him if it is not an orignal, shootable Joseph Manton, properly dated and authenticated, 90% original finish, it's not work asking about, simply because I have had a chance to shoot and handle more than one? Or should I assume that perhaps that person doesn't have the financial resources of my deceased friend? Or have the encyclopedic knowledge he did? If you're dealing with the public you have to cater to the questions. Not all of us need a 25,000# steam Erie hammer for our shops.

Ellen - Sunday, 04/02/06 23:16:37 EDT

Ellen, Neither do I. But I have run hammers from 25 pounds to 750 and really DO think a 100 to 150 pound hammer is the right size for the serious hobby smith OR the small time professional. But then we buy (or build) what we can afford. The professional will rapidly want more than one AND make good use of them. Pros often use more than one hammer on one piece in one heat. The hammers may or may not be the same size but will definitely have different dies. I've done enough short run production work that I know having more than one of any machine is often more important than the quality or actual condition of each machine in many cases. Changing chucks, tools and setups in lathes, drill presses and punch presses is more time consuming than making dozens of parts. Same goes for power hammers. My point? I have not been trying to sell you on needing two or three power hammers, just ONE the right size. Get as big a machine as you can afford and you will be glad you did. You can always get or dream TOO big. But generally if it will fit in your garage, shop or a small barn it in not too big for a small shop. The exception is manually powered tools. Many of the flypresses on the market are two operator machines. No point in putting one of these in your shop. But consider this. The little 33 pound Chinese hammer uses a 3HP motor (usualy 3PH). From the factory a 100 pound Little Giant used a 3HP motor BUT will run perfectly on 2HP as did a 100 pound Fairbanks. A 25 pound Little Giant came with a 1 HP motor but will run on a 1/2 as did Fairbanks and a 50 pound mechanical will run on a 1 to 1.5 HP motor (can be single phase 120VAC). For many people that 3 HP is out of their range for shop power. So they are forced to buy smaller OR more efficient machines. . . I have an old 350# Nile Bement I dream of getting running one day. I KNOW I cannot afford the electric line and compressor big enough to operate it. But I CAN run a gasoline powered air compressor. . . Where there is a will there is a way!

- guru - Monday, 04/03/06 00:27:08 EDT

OBTW - You can spread the cost of an air compressor across several air hammers. . .

- guru - Monday, 04/03/06 00:29:16 EDT

OK, we're back to discussing powerhammers again so I'm I'm going to ask my same old question again (I've asked it a couple of times already but can't seem to get a definitive answer as yet.....maybe there isn't one ?!). I built myself a "Spare Tire JYH" last year (scrounging as much as I could it was under $400.00). It has a 35# hammer and a 90# anvil (a railroad rail on end). Can I add to the weight of the anvil by welding on 2 or more pieces of track, or sleeving it and adding lead or concrete? Or do I have to replace it with a heavier piece of steel to get the maximum utility out of the hammer? Naturally if I use concrete, I'd weld on protruding bars to pour around, with lead, I'd burn holes through the web to get it to lock in tight. With adding track I'd do a combo of spot welding and banding, much like you'd do on an anvil stump or barrel. Any thought's? Thanks.

Thumper - Monday, 04/03/06 00:44:05 EDT

Source for 1/2" propane quick disconnect couplers. www.propane-generators.com/quick_disconnect.htm

Rhoof - Monday, 04/03/06 00:54:26 EDT

I'm a nubie to the craft, but for what it's worth, here's my two cents. I think the question being addressed here about the power hammers could be applied to almost anything. I, among other things am a semi-professional bluegrass musician. The Martin guitar and Gibson 5-string banjo I now play are in the 3 to 5 thousand dollar range each. Not something a beginning musician would probably buy. I didn't start on these either. I think that the more you use you have for something, and the more rewards you receive from the use of it, will dictate what you are willing to spend for something, including a power hammer. I'm still at the hand held hammer level, and a long way from needing a power hammer, but I'm sure that when and if I ever decide I need one, I will buy the biggest and best I can manuver into, whether I can afford it or not. That's the American way!

Glenn Tate - Monday, 04/03/06 01:07:12 EDT

THUMPER If you would weld flat steel to the sides and fill it with lead or anything you have that is heavy. it would help. You would need to contain anything you put on it. It might shake your concrete off like flies.grin Chuck If you had an eightXeight solid the right height, if you be just right. Get you up to the 14X1 or better that you need.

sandpile - Monday, 04/03/06 01:17:24 EDT

I have always been greatly interested in swords. I have not done much research, but I would really love to know where I can get an anvil, where to get the perfect metal to make a good sword, how to make a sword, what to use, where to get that, and the steps to do it in. I am living in Dacula Georgia, im 25 m. and just want to have a real sword other than this cheap imitation that has no wooden pegs, but a welded treads and nut covered at the end, that I got from a fair. Wonderful website you have here. Thanks.

jason - Monday, 04/03/06 01:20:06 EDT

Thumper: I never built one, but I don't see any problem with ganging up more rail or bar stock. You will need to get a good flat bearing surface on the top & bottom [it has been done with an angle grinder] and weld a thick top plate [2"?]plate to the assembled mass. I would weld the rails/bars together along the length. I don't think the lead or concrete is a real good solution, as any movement defeats the purpose.

Dave Boyer - Monday, 04/03/06 03:01:13 EDT

Yes, but what law says anvil mass has to come from the manufacturer. Say the shaft is 4" pipe or tube which fits into a 4 1/2" receiver at the base. Buyer has to fill it with mass on site, such as a combination of small chucks of strap iron and molten lead, and finish securing in place. Here one would seem to be simplifying manufacturing and reducing shipping weight. I haven't seen SOF&A's design yet, but suspect I can find a way to add mass if needed. Workshop is this coming weekend (unless they reschedule yet again). Should have the hammer here (put perhaps not installed) for the Anvilfire Hammer-in on April 21-23.

Ken Scharabok - Monday, 04/03/06 05:06:04 EDT

I worked for a far too brief period with a 33# Anyang... it did not use 3PH power, and I believe it had a 2HP motor. Could have been 3HP, but it was running off 220, and that's how they come set up from the factory. This was in Australia, so it was running on an extension cord from a household outlet... can't have been drawing much.

T. Gold - Monday, 04/03/06 08:34:06 EDT

There's more to a powerhammer anvil than simply mass. That mass has to be rigid, mostly incompressible, and have those characteristics be consistent throughout the anvil. If you fill a tube with concrete, or lead or loose scrap, you'll end up with more mass, but that mass will be much less effective than it would if it were a solid piece of steel or even cast iron. The force from the hammer blow must be resisted by anvil in a way that gives back the energy and doesn't just absorb it. When making a soundproof wall, the best material for absorbing the pressure waves hittin it is, you guessed it, lead. Sucks all that energy up and doesn't transmit it back in the form of reflected sound. Doesn't resonate, either. Lead works the same way, to some degree, in an anvil. Yes, it is mass, but it is absorbing energy and diffusing it, rather than returning it. Less effective. Concrete will do some of the same diffusion, but it will also crumble from the constant vibration, turning it to a powder that is not resilient enough to do much good as anvil mass. The mass that counts in an anvil is the mass that is pretty much directly under the force and is resilient enough to have some rebound, reflecting the force back to the work. The mass of the hammer frame is not under the force, so it doesn't gain you much, other than helping to keep the hammer from jumping around so much. If you made an anvil that was 3" thick by 6 feet in diameter, you would have a mass of almost 3500#, but it would be much less effective than a cylinder 10" in diameter and 8 feet long, which would actually have only about 2000# mass, but all of it under the force. A truncated pyramidal cone is the best shape, I would think, as the force is initially straight downward, but is then transmitted laterally as it is transmitted through the anvil. The foregoing is not to be confused with science, of which I have little knowledge. Just gut instinct and observation.

vicopper - Monday, 04/03/06 09:27:52 EDT

Anvil Mass: This is not for getting traction in snow, it is not junk in the trunk. It must be solid mass. Bar welded thouroughly to the sides of an underweight anvil WILL help and is fairly efficient. Flat plates in a stack, even welded all the way around their edges is very inefficient. A high percentage of rebound force being lost at each interface. CONCRETE is not anvil mass. Inside a container it quickly shrinks and has no contact with the outside. It is also only 1/4 as dense as steel. A matrix of anything is dead weight but not efficiency improving mass unless there are huge amounts of it and this should be supporting the anvil that provides the mass. * * *Lead, Pb, Plumbum * * * Please do not recommend lead for ANYTHING that it is not absolutely necessary. The first person that filled a tube full of lead for a treadle hammer should have kept it a secret and not advertised the fact or put it in plans. Yes we allmost all have lead in our shops but we do not need more of it and certainly NOT in hammer construction. It is toxic to children and small animals. When poured any spilled droplets disintegrate into dust which gets tracked everywhere and is impossible to clean up. Lead is not self supporting, you cannot bolt or weld to it. It is easily replaced by slightly more (non toxic) steel to achieve the same weight and the SAME goes for using it for radiation shielding! The only time lead should be used for weight or shielding is where space limitation will absolutely not alow a substitute.

- guru - Monday, 04/03/06 09:32:14 EDT

Quoted Anyang HP: This was from a US sellers web site and may possibly be in error. Two out of three Chinese hammer sites that list the 33# hammer did not have full specs so I had to rely on the one that did. Also note that the cycles per second in the US and Austraila are different. In the US it is 60 and in OZ and China it is 50. This is a 20% increase in motor speed resulting in more load. The first Chinese hammers brought over here would not run or constantly blew fuses because of the difference. US hammers now have different motors I believe. (I suggested different pullies). I repeat, this is the INFORMATION AGE. There is no point in having a web site and advertising an industrial product without full (accurate) specs. People (like Ellen) want to KNOW what they are buying and compare to other products. If a manufacturer or seller does not provide full specs (HP overall weight, power requirements as a minimum!) then it is their fault when they are erroniously compared or described.

- guru - Monday, 04/03/06 10:01:10 EDT

Swords: Jason, see our Sword Making FAQ

- guru - Monday, 04/03/06 10:06:03 EDT

You grow into stuff as your knowledge and ambition increases, and then… you start reaching your limitations. These limits may be time, money, innate skill, the demands of your day job, familial concerns; all parts of your life have an effect on your choices of equipment. One of my friends, John Huff, makes his living at crafts, and specialized in Viking-style wool combs (view a similar one to his at: http://pjhandcrafts.com/woolcomb/tmedoakft.jpg. They’re used in pairs.) When I dropped by his shop, there were four drill presses that he’d picked up over the years, each with a separate set of jigs for a specific operation. As John said, it sure was easier using machines than using apprentices. Yesterday, in my role of official “mentor” I met with a young man who’s doing a set of scale armor for his high school metalworking class, and discussed how he could finish off the gear so to provide a balance between protection and mobility and offensive capability. Too much armor protection can be as dangerous as too little. It’s the same way with tools and equipment, and books, and time spent on internet bulletin boards and capital investment and time spent working. The secret is in striking the balance. Something that looks “really cool” may be just the thing to open up new areas to your skills, or it may be a diversion from taking the time and making the investment in more important things. You have to ask yourself: what are you trying to accomplish? Make money? Make art? Make cool stuff for your friends? Fill time? Improve your mind? Spend lots of money? Inspire envy in your fellows? (I have some really nice wooden penny whistles, but I can’t play them worth a darn. The “envy” factor only lasts until I start to try to create music. ;-) What scale do you wish to work in? Pistols and cannons both fire projectiles, but they take a whole different set of equipment to fabricate. A light farrier’s anvil is just fine if you specialize in small folding knife blades, but a little lacking if you’re planning cathedral gates. You could probably still build the gates, but the trade off is in the time and difficulty involved in the project. One of the nice things about this group is that you do get a range of opinions, and you can make an informed decision based upon them. I’ve rambled enough. Sorry ‘bout that, the subject just tends to kick off the philosophic side in me. I guess I’m just an old epicurean. :-) Gray and cloudy on the banks of the Potomac. Visit your National Parks: www.nps.gov Go viking: www.longshipco.org

Bruce Blackistone (Atli) - Monday, 04/03/06 10:41:13 EDT

T.gold - that hammer wasnt in Glenn Moons back yard was it? - I heard he recently gave one a 14 hour thrashing! In the UK i supply the 33 lb er to run of 240v single phase - motor 1.5 kw - they work a treat on standard 'domestic' supply Glad I put full technical specs on the site now guru :) Ellen, I like the questions - I lurk away watching (learning) from other peoples threads. I like answering power hammer questions ( im pretty useless at everything else :) - I figure a few folks will read it and learn. the recent discussions have got me thinking about mechanical 'v' pneumatic and im not sure about the efficiency claims of the mechanical (im not saying your wrong Jock - ive just not got it straight in my head yet) I sense a little research coming on. Anyway - whilst mulling the above Ive come up with a cracking idea for a small / cheap / very easy to build power hammer * watch this space ! * (except it might ruin my existing business :( ps...if anyone does know of a 25000# erie for sale ive got a customer for it.......

John N - Monday, 04/03/06 12:07:12 EDT

Pieh Tool Co: an advertiser here: Anyang 33# One Piece Hammer Min. Hit Energy 118 ft lb Hits per minute 240 Max.Forged Rnd Steel 1 3/8 inch Max Forged Sq Steel 1 3/16 inch Dist between Top & Bot. Die 6 1/4 inch Dist center of die to frame 5 11/16 inch Diam Working Cyl. 5 3/4 inch Diam Compression Cyl. 5 15/16 inch Dim. of die surface LXW 2 3/4 X 1 9/16 Dist. Bottom die face to base 14 9/16 inch Mach. Floor space LXW+motor 21 1/4 X 13 3/4 Machine height 33 9/16 inch Motor Voltage 220 60hz Motor Phase Single Phase Motor rated HP 3 HP Machine net weight + Motor 572 lb Price $3,795 Base not included.

Ellen - Monday, 04/03/06 12:21:04 EDT

Anyang 88 pound One Piece Hammer Rated Weight of hammer 88 lb. Minimum hit energy 245/210 Max. Forged Round Steel 2 7/8 inch Square Steel 2 5/32 inch Distance between top and bottom die 9 1/8 inch Distance from center of die to frame 9 1/4 inch Diameter of the working cylinder 8 3/32 inch Dimension of die surface LxW 4 3/4 X 2 1/8 Distance from bottom die face to base 19 11/16 inches Machine Floor space (LXW) + motor 46 X 20 inches Machine Height 54 3/4 inches Motor Voltage 220 60 hz Motor Phase 3 phase single phase available on request Motor rated HP 5.5 hp Machine net weight + motor 1940 lb. Price $5,995 I can do reasearch and read. I just often don't understand the practical applications of implications of technical specifications. Hence my asking numerous questions and keeping with it until I learn or get thrown off the board. Thanks!

Ellen - Monday, 04/03/06 12:28:20 EDT

Further technical information and specs on 165# hammer on her website www.piehtoolco.com, or available through pull down menu at upper right of this screen. Amy is great to deal with!

Ellen - Monday, 04/03/06 12:41:03 EDT

John, I didn't think to check your site (sorry). Checked the factory (few specs), AnyangUSA (few specs) and Pieh tool who has a 3HP motor listed. Data may be wrong and someone mistook 3HP for 3PH. . . If you compare the known mechanical manufacturers HP to the current and past pneumatic hammer the ratio is about 2:1. Little Giant specs must be taken with a grain of salt as they had a rule against fractional HP motors and would not use a 3/4HP on their 25# machine. They started at 1 and stepped up. Fairbanks used a 1/2 on 25# and 1HP on 50 which would put a 33# hammer right at 3/4HP (less than half your pneumatic, 1.5Kw = 2HP). The inefficiency of air is a well known engineering fact. Heat (mechanical and air friction) losses are tremondous (both self contained hammer or seperate compressor). There are many advantages but low power consumption is not one of them. If your market is the hobbiest or home market OR even developing countries then a machine requiring low power should be your goal.

- guru - Monday, 04/03/06 12:59:41 EDT

Any idea who makes the Twisted Sister hammer seen here: http://www.britishblades.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19414

Bob G - Monday, 04/03/06 13:16:30 EDT

Hammer efficency / energy requirements - air hammers pull a few more amps starting but im not sure how much of the motor h.p is used when they are running - I will check with my electrician. They do generate heat through frictional losses but i wouldnt have thought that would account for double the power consumption. Again in seems to all be a bit theoretical since the work output of the hammer varies from mechanical to pneumatic. What we need to do is get 2 similar rated hammers (25 kg anyang / 50lb LG say) & do a standard forging on both ( say 2" sq bar to 1" square ) and measure how much juice is drawn by each hammer to do the work, I will get round to it one day......

John N - Monday, 04/03/06 13:49:35 EDT

Ellen, note that the maximum forged size from most manufacturers is hype. Same as was the running your Old Blue or Bull off a 3HP air compressor. . . Folks have realized the truth and gotten off that bandstand. The Forging Industry Association gives 50 pounds per square inch of cross section as a recommended minimum rate for mild steel and about 70 for tool steel. These are values for very large hammers and do not apply well to small hammers where you actually should have MORE power due to rapid heat loss. But it is still a good basic rule to keep in mind. What will fit under the hammer is a completly different thing. I have seen a 4" ball forged from a cylinder under a 110# Big BLU. It was way out of the range for the machine but it did do it (in multiple heats). Little Giant specs gave more capacity than was useful being based on what fit. The "flats on edge" was completely off base. The line in red on our chart is my addition and very close to the truth based on experiance. The same rule aplies to new machines. I probably should make a graph as the calculating a square root of an area confuses many. 50 pound rule for two Chinese hammers 33# = .6 sqin, .812 (13/16") sq. or .92" round 88# = 1.76 sqin. 1.32 sq. or 1.5" round

- guru - Monday, 04/03/06 13:57:16 EDT

Bob G - Ive never heard of the 'twisted sister' hammer before - I read the thread about pulling the rawl shields out (cant post there saving up the tenner for membership still!) - I suspect the rubber mat is to flexable alowing the 'bounce' to hammer the bolt shields out - try a bit of 1/2" fabreeka / James walker 32ply matting or similar (or good marine ply at a push)under the base instead.

John N - Monday, 04/03/06 14:13:46 EDT

Forging energy - all my charts on energy factors relate to closed die forging so cannot really comment (or use these figures in any meaningfull way versus open die forging) - is the 50lb per sq" cross section rule 50 lb ram weight or 50 ft.lbs ? I do know that the chinese hammers work upto the stock size stated on the specs without to much effort, I will be putting videos of this with my next site update. ( I will get round to it one day...........)

John N - Monday, 04/03/06 14:39:41 EDT

Twisted Sister Hammer: Bob, That is VERY SIMILAR to the hammer built by Bertie Rietveld and Tom Nelson of South Africa and listed on our Powerhammer JYH page. Click link for more.

- guru - Monday, 04/03/06 14:51:05 EDT

Problem with hammer Hopping up and down. . . reference to "Twisted Sister" This is generaly a problem with insufficient anvil mass but can also be a spring and timing problem. I always thought the spings were too soft in this hammer and that it needed shorter springs and toggles (a major redesign). Hammer should not try to pull itself out of the floor. At the 1998 ABANA convention when Grant and I had our little contest his would litteraly walk across the parking lot due to the front hopping off the ground with every up stroke. This was due to low mass AND lack of upstroke energy absorption. You think designing and building one of these things is easy until you see one walking across the floor with three large men trying to hold it back. . . . and the machine was only a 1/2HP or so.

- guru - Monday, 04/03/06 15:03:17 EDT

Thanks all on the input about beefing up my JYH anvil. In reading the messages I now understand the drawbacks of adding on rather than using a solid chunk of metal....most depressing (LOL)! Thinking about all that was posted in response to my question raises a new one. One of the DIY hammers uses an engine block for an anvil. Don't the hollows in the block for pistons and water lines etc limit it's usefulness as an anvil because of it's perforated mass?

Thumper - Monday, 04/03/06 15:08:23 EDT

I was wrong: This is a copy of the South African hammer built by someone else. Ram is much heavier and a few parts different.

- guru - Monday, 04/03/06 15:11:15 EDT

EC-JYH: Thumper, In my many follow ups as in the article on the EC-JYH I pointed out that the block was surprisingly light (about 100 pounds when stripped) and that it was a lousy anvil. But that is the point of CHEAP JYH construction is to build with as little as possible and what you have on-hand. If you have little invested then there is little to lose. On my JYH the "anvil" was two large 4" thick scrap "cookies" (drops). The engine block was a riser. But yes the holes are a problem not only in reduced mass but in making a springy foundation. This machine was about as piss-poor a machine as one could imagine. It had very low efficiency and needed slowing down. However, the clutching worked pretty well and it DID run. We forged things with it and it could point 1" bars faster than I could as well as do it all day. But it takes up a LOT of room for its effectiveness. I kept it planning on using it as a test bed for other ideas but have not had the shop time. I wanted to try a horizontal flat spring across the top of the ram attached to the shocks on the ends. This would give it that spring assisted "snap" that makes mechanical hammers hit so hard. I am ready to part with it if anyone is interested. The rear axel is from a late 1970's or early 1980's Olds 98 (the last of the BIG ones) and is probably worth more than anything else.

- guru - Monday, 04/03/06 15:27:21 EDT

Anvil Size and Efficiency: After I made the previous mumblings about anvil size and efficiency and other considerations such as portability I came across the German Army farriers picture from Gill Fahrenwald on the portal page. Boy, it may not be that efficient, but the anvil shown is sure portable. Maybe it's for mule shoes. :-) http://www.anvilfire.com/home/images/slideshow/g_fahrenwald/jan_2006.htm

Bruce Blackistone (Atli) - Monday, 04/03/06 15:27:24 EDT

John, I think the one I was playing with ended up with Luke Berger. He had it set up on a funky timber stack, with a one-foot treadle... it was interesting. I'd like to pay him a visit and try it out in his shop. (Grin) I think Glenn sold it to him, though. 14 hours, eh? Amazing.

T-Gold - Monday, 04/03/06 15:45:39 EDT

Not even sure I am in the right place. I am trying to track down operator's manuals for a diacro #4 manual bender and a diacro #2 manual punch. Any suggestions? Thanks!

Dale - Monday, 04/03/06 17:01:35 EDT

SOFA hammer- I was at last saturdays SOFA meeting and saw the prototype of the hammer they are building this weekend at the workshop. I dont know too much about them, but it looks like a fine machine to me. I would be in the workshop in a flash if it was not for a lack of funds, space & the ability to move it. :(

Brian C - Monday, 04/03/06 17:14:25 EDT

Di-Acro manuals- unfortunately, Di-Acro is gone. The company website is down, and there is no word on if it will be back again or not. Acrobend makes similar benders, and may be able to help with the bender- acrobend.com Somebody told me that there was a way to find archived websites on the web, and that you might be able to get the pdf for the bender manual- but I dont know if that is true or not. There is one main bender manual, called the Art of Bending, which covers all the manual benders. There might be some info at the metalworkingdropbox, over at metalworking.com

- Ries - Monday, 04/03/06 18:02:56 EDT

Dale: I have had limited success in finding operator's manuals on eBay. Try to find someone selling the equipment with the manual and then see if they are willing to make a copy of it for you.

Ken Scharabok - Monday, 04/03/06 18:28:49 EDT

50lb rule: John, It is a rule of thumb for efficient production and seems to work well. It is for open die forging and is in pounds of ram per square inch cross section of mild steel. For alloy steel and other spplication 60 and 70 pounds is often used. In the US most of the industry gave up calulated or even "tested" blow ratings as there are too many variables and much too much fuzzy math. The pure mathematial approach using mv2 results in infinity unless there is movement or a deaceleration time/distance. Instantly stopping any force yeilds infinity and the universe comes to an end. . . So you must assume work done in X time/distance OR anvil efficeincy and movement. Anvil movement is simple physics where a small object moving fast causes a large object to move slow. Many years ago the folks at Chambersburg came up with an efficiency table and most of the industry has agreed with its accuracy. I had a fellow do the math and it pretty much agrees with theoretical physics as well as practical testing. Chambersburg built hammers with 15:1 and 20:1 anvils. The heavy duty high efficiency 20:1 anvils were at what Chambersburg thought was the point of limited returns at 70% efficiency. Most of their normal anvils were 15:1 as were many other manufacturers of the time. To calculate the maxiumum effective force of a power hammer you start with the velocity at the percentage of travel (95% is reasonable) and calculate mv2 times the anvil efficiency. The blow force is actually a graph of work heights vs. velocity at that point. The "Maximum" force is die to die and it the theoretical 100% mv2*efficiency. The "work performed" is a totaly different matter and has the added variables of material stength at a given temperature. There are so many variables that it is mind bogging to think about. Besides material and temperature there is die shape and finish as friction becomes a factor. In open die forging the die shape is very critical to smooth efficient flow (even on "flat" dies). Talk about comparing apples to oranges! So for practical purposes, fairness and honesty we use the 50lb. rule of thumb. . .

- guru - Monday, 04/03/06 18:50:12 EDT

Diacro Manuals. . I am archiving them as we wait. . .

- guru - Monday, 04/03/06 18:51:28 EDT

Thumper, I scabbed on some 1 1/4" plate alongside my existing power hammer anvil when I upped the ram from 32# to 45#. I noticed a big difference. I added these slabs to the sides of the anvil, and they were welded along the sides from top to bottom and at the top and bottom. Perfect? It IS a junkyard hammer. know many people with a 45# power hammer that they have $100 or less in? I do have about 20 or 30 hours of blacksmith fun in building it. Learned alot too.

- ptree - Monday, 04/03/06 19:35:39 EDT

Hi, my question is about teaching introductory blacksmithing classes. For the past seven years now metal work has been a small side business for me. I am largely self taught. I've been debating teaching some introductory blacksmithing in my own shop. Recently I had someone approach me who wanted to pay me to train her. Teaching could be fun. However the selfish part of me just doesn't want to give all my hard earned knowledge away, and I afraid people will get hurt. Can you give me some advice.

Dan - Monday, 04/03/06 19:47:37 EDT

Teaching Secrets: Dan, There are only about 250 schools teaching blacksmithing and about 70 blacksmithing organizations giving free demos and beginers classes and a NEW book or two comes out on blacksmithing every year now on top of the dozens that exist. You want secrets look at the Blacksmith's Manual Illustrated By J.W. Lillico. . . So what great secret do you have that we do not know and have'nt giving away here? Example: When I first launched anvilfire in 1998 I posted the twist method of making tongs that I had used in the mid 1970's and called it the "Dempsey Twist" as I had not seen it in any book. Recently Uri Hofi confided to me that he had thought HE invented it in the 1980's but then found it in a book published about WWI in England. . . There is almost nothing new in blacksmithing. . . . . . but ocassionaly there is. I have a step-by-step article on makeing a candle pan joint that Uri Hofi says he invented and I am sure it is original as it requires some fairly precision tools that are a little too picky for pre 20th century blacksmiths. Uri has demonstrated the method numerous times so it is no secret. SHARING is what makes modern blacksmithing the enjoyable trade that it is and the reason it is HERE TODAY. In previous centuries narrow minded folk kept their techniques and methods to themselves and a huge part of the history of our craft was lost when the was suddenly displaced by modern industry. It has taken 30 years to bring blacksmithing to where it is today by SHARING. It is the goal of modern blacksmiths to be sure that their trade and its "secrets" never die again.

- guru - Monday, 04/03/06 20:15:47 EDT

Guru, thanks for the Chambersburg anvil efficiency information.

- John Larson - Monday, 04/03/06 20:33:10 EDT

Teaching: And I forgot the videos! If you REALLY want to learn something about MOVING METAL try the Uri Hofi Free Form Forging DVD or the Bill Epps videos from Teaching Tapes. Time is money: Now there is nothing wrong with charging for your time. But there are insurance issues to mull over. Your home owner's probably covers visitors but the second you take a dime for a lesson then they will tell you that you are not covered. . . And the cost of having a neophyte in your shop is usally broken handles, empty cylinders (full yesterday), dull and missing drill bits. . . and on and on. Teaching is a noble task that I thouroughly enjoy. In the past I demoed at faires and craft shows as well as schools. It is personaly rewarding but rarely financialy rewarding. There is a lot to think about. But "shop secrets" is not one of them.

- guru - Monday, 04/03/06 20:37:52 EDT

To the prospective teacher-- What you know is worth a great deal. Do make sure you pay, in full, all those who taught you something before you get too caught up in selling what you know. If you are like me, the vast majority of what I could teach another is "second-hand" already. Some of what I would like to think is original is actually only a variation heavily based on skills someone else taught me. My time I can charge for, were I to charge for my knowledge, I would not know how to appropriately distribute the income. What I might learn of blacksmithing I have time/money to study because someone else taught me things I use to make a living. The chain gets quite complex. But, then, what I know will evaporate in another 20 or 30 years if I don't find a way to pass it on. (Do watch your back on the liability issue. As much as I dislike the approach, you may wish to contact an attorney for some advice. Not all prospective students are responsible adults.) Dale K. Howe, PhD

Dale - Monday, 04/03/06 21:25:30 EDT

Those of you who have skills to pass on, and the skill to pass them on: While it may have liability issues, responsibility issues and who knows what other issues, I urge you to figure out a way to pass on your knowledge. Both to keep it form being lost, and to provide an opportunity for a person who wants to know. Where I live, there simply seem to be few, if any, who want to learn the trade. Most consider it too demanding, too dirty, too underpaid, or some other negative. If I can find just one person who really, truly wants to learn and is willing to make a real effort, I will move mountains to teach him/her everything that I can. That is the very least I can do to give something back to a craft that has given me more hours of pleasure and growth than I can possibly count.

vicopper - Monday, 04/03/06 21:35:21 EDT

TEACHING--When I started riding colts and punching cows. There was a treasure trove of information locked up in heads of the older hands. I worked with some of them and could not pry one piece of good info from their locked jaws. I worked for several years. Gradually picking up a little knowledge from watching and mostly in trail and error methods. I finally had enough knowledge and was getting the kind of results with my horse and dog training, that the old hands started asking me how I got a horse/dog to do this or that. I did not shake my head and run backwards. I would simply show them what I knew and how I figured it in my head. Because I was forced to learn 90% of this on my own, I had a totally different approach to the training of animals. The few old men that told me to learn it on my own, did not get one piece of training info from me. Should have been as free with them as I was with the others. Missed a chance for that many more friends. This old life is far to short and the road a way too bumpy to slowly pick your way through the cow pies of life. If you have someone holding the light, it makes for a cleaner and quite a bit faster trip.GRIN Chuck

sandpile - Monday, 04/03/06 22:02:29 EDT

Tricks of Trades: When I was a tool & die apprentice I kept an eye on the better journymen to learn what I could. As My skills improved I started to come up with some tricks of My own. What I mean by this is they were new to Me and not being used in the shop I was in, but I am sure that thousands of others had done the same things in thousands of other shops. I soon came to realise that the really good guys came up with new tricks as the need arose. No offense to Dan, but really good guys don't mind if somebody learns thier tricks. They know that they will come up with more and better tricks in the future.

Dave Boyer - Monday, 04/03/06 23:52:07 EDT

More Secrets: A good friend of mine has always been afraid to train help and as a result never had good help when he needed it. He was always afraid they would go off and become competition. Well. . . that happens anyway. In a good modern shop you have a significant capital outlay in tools and machinery. Unless your student is independently wealthy it will take them years to catch up. Train them to run that Nazel 3B and just how many places can they run off to and just where are they going to find a replacement? Even the Chinese hammers get real pricey in that size. Same goes for little toys like weld plattens, good saws, presses. . . In general we are talking about "Artist Blacksmiths". If you are an artist then you have a skill that many no matter how hard they try most others do not have OR it may take them another lifetime to develope those skills. On the other hand most artist blacksmiths NEED a partner that thinks like Donald Trump and can clear the BS from a deal and make it profitable. At the NOMMA MetalFAB trade show I ran into something I had never seen in the blacksmithing world. People afraid of having their work photographed in fear that a competitor will copy it. . . "No Cameras" has been the long standing rule at the NOMMA shows. Well, I was invited to photograph everything, and did. We will have a big edition of the NEWS as soon as the next edition of the Fabricator comes out. I saw nothing worth stealing. However, what I DID see in agregate should have a LOT of "artist blacksmiths" honing their artistic and sales skills. In just a few years the quality of components has jumped tremondously. German factories are turning out components with true fish tail scrolls, forged an incised leaves. . . Lesser manufacturers are cranking out work with colorful finishes that make you forget the colars are round and tack welded on. Mexican factories are texturing work all over and forging long tapers for vines. AND they are turning out custom pieces from their base components of leaves, vines, fruit and flowers. Your customer generally doesn't care if you use tennoned joints and hot fit collars but they DO care when you paint your work flat black and the the guy with the cheaper price has earthy browns and gold highlights that result in a drop dead gorgeous piece that also matches their decor. . . Fabricators see money in the high end work and are buying the machinery to produce it. Power hammers, multipurpose twisters/benders and other high production tools. They know that they can produce the components they have been buying for years and cut out the middle man and long distance shipping. These guys are efficient and meet deadlines. They are not afraid to hire and train help to make the pits and pieces. They will use cheap components when the job dictates them and high price custom components when the money is there. The secret at NOMMA is the "fabricators" that have been a dirty word in the artist blacksmith world are now taking many of those fancier jobs that WERE the domain of the "artist" blacksmith. AND they are making money at it where the purists that learned "a joint is either a joint or it is not" from Francis Whitaker are losing those jobs. The "disease" of components is now employing real blacksmiths to make the bits and pieces in efficient high production. To combat this shift the architectural smith is going to need to raise the bar AND remain competitive. Work must look better, be cleaner and well finished (no crappy cheap wax finishes). And above ALL it must be delivered on-time. This means learning to mechanise and keep the hand made one of a kind look. It means pricing REAL finishing into the job and not fluffing over it. It means using HELP when you need it. Uri Hofi says we need to be more professional as a group. Something to think about.

- guru - Tuesday, 04/04/06 00:43:47 EDT

ANVIL EFFICIENCY GRAPH- Thanks for the graph, Guru. It certainly gave me a lot to think about in planning my next hammer. I had bought a piece of 5" round for an anvil, but thought it was a bit light so I got some 8" round instead. If I read the graph right, that just brought the efficiency of the hammer from 17% to 48%. (The numbers are based on a 35-lb ram weight.) I can see why you stress anvil weight. Another interesting observation is that if I cut the ram weight in half, I more than double the efficiency at the expense of doing half the work (mV2), so I roughly end up where I started from, assuming that the velocity is the same. The lighter ram may actually accellerate faster provided that the air cylinder can exhale fast enough on the down stroke, but I am sure its not that simple. The proof will be in building one (or more) and actually using it. Thanks again.

DonS - Tuesday, 04/04/06 00:51:55 EDT

I was wondering if you guys could tell to me how to overlay steel with silver or brass. Iam trying to figuer it out so i can make some fancy cowboy spurs.

becca - Tuesday, 04/04/06 01:04:36 EDT

Anvil efficiency: DonS, It is not that simple. What happens is the force is transfered into the floor or foundation. There is a loss but a higher percentage of the work is still done. However, vibration of the floor and noise is a fatigue factor on the worker that is also an important part of machine efficiency. Many hammers have a 10:1 ratio which is 40% on the CECO scale. This would be the hammer efficiency floating free in space. Setting on a heavy foundation you get back about 20% of the lost 60% so you are back up to a total of 60%. 10 and 15:1 is normal for most hammers. Today they tend to be less due to material costs. Folks also set hammers directly on 4" concrete pads which is something cheap and easy to do but also reduces hammer efficiency. Little Giant with a 15:1 ratio (not including the frame) called for a concrete block that weighed nearly as much as the hammer. The Chinese hammer manuals (at least the old ones) called for the same size foundations.

- guru - Tuesday, 04/04/06 09:20:44 EDT

becca, The simplest and most straightforward way to overlay brass or silver onto steel is to silver solder it. The secret to getting a good soldered joint is to have the pieces fitted as closely as possible, so that the molten solder will travel throughout the joint by capillary action. This means a fit that within a few thousandths of an inch, so it pays to take some extra time here. Another factor in good soldering is cleanliness. The pieces to be soldered must be free of any oxides, dirt or grease. Sand them clean and bright, then flux with the appropriate flux for the materials you're using. For silver to steel, I recommend using true silver solder in the melting grade known as "easy", and I like Battern's self-pickling flux. Other fluxes, such as Handy and Harmon's Handi-flux work fine, too. Fit the joint up properly, heat the pieces to just warm, flux liberally and let dry. Cut little snippets of solder and place them around the edge of the joint, "gluing" them in place with a tiny amount of flux. Heat again slowly to dry the flux, replacing any solder bits that pop off. Now bring the whole works up to soldering heat, around medium red hot, and the solder will melt and flow into the joint. The process for brass is the same, but I recommend Sil-Fos solder for brass, as it is a somewhat better color match for the brass. You can solder such work using a low temperature silver-bearing solder, which is not to be confused with real silver (hard) solder. This is a tin/antimony/silver solder that melts at around 500°F. The flux for soft solder is usually a mixture of rosin and sal ammoniac. A plain ammonium chloride flux will also work. The process is the same as far as fitment and cleanliness goes. Soft solder is not as strong a joint as hard solder, nor does it come in various melting points allowing multiple stages of soldering as silver solder does.

vicopper - Tuesday, 04/04/06 09:28:49 EDT

Silver and brass over steel: Becca, It depends on the result you want. However, artists have been applying brass with a torch for decades and silver could be done the same way. Applying brass is the same as brazing. The steel is heated, flux applied and the steel heated to a low red through the flux and the brass heated in the flame and applied. Silver can be done the same way but at lower temperatures and with silver soldering flux. It would probably do on better over clean brass than directly to the steel. Another method is the Japanese Mokume' Gane' method. Traditionaly this is used to make laminated non-ferrous metal (copper, brass, silver, gold) which is then cut into to reveal the laminations and produce patterns. Starting with bright clean steel you would want to copper flash it with copper sulfate solution then apply a layer of oven braxing sheet and a sheet of brass. A piece of sooted steel laid over this. The whole would be heated in a kiln until the brazing sheet melted. Once the brass is applied to the steel (a high temperature process) silver could be applied to the brass. These processes take a LOT of experimentation and I am not expert on them. Copper, brass and gold wire is also inlet into fine undercut grooves cut with a chisel. The wire is hammered into the grooves expanding it in place. Burnishing further extrudes the steel edges over the inlay. Very light filing and polishing is done to finish flush. Fancy spurs are also made of laminated steels. When etched and blackened you can have brilliant patterning. Forge welding the laminates is the subject of whole books. Many artists often buy the laminated material from others. Personally I would stick to brass on steel and blacken the steel.

- guru - Tuesday, 04/04/06 09:40:43 EDT

Thank for informations guys.

- becca - Tuesday, 04/04/06 10:10:15 EDT

Power hammer anvil mass? I'm hoping to build a hammer and trying to calculate anvil mass. This is what I have so far 6"x9"x33" anvil ~500#, base 3"x26"x32" ~ 700#, 2 pieces 1"x8"x32" ~ 140#, these last 2 pieces will join the anvil and base to the column. Question is can I count this mass as anvil mass, I'm hoping to build a 90 pound hammer, I could also watch for more fill in material between the anvil and column. The Column is 6" x 6" x 1/2" wall, 72" tall at the moment. Sorry for more JYH questions, but your thoughs would be a real help.

- Trent - Tuesday, 04/04/06 12:23:30 EDT

Trent, 80% or so of that 3" thick base counts since it is fairly compact. You are well over 10:1 so you should have a good stout hammer. On a rectangular base I count the square under the anvil if it is thick plate. In this case the 3" that you are using is going to see little flex. The two pieces you are adding to the back of the anvil add to the mass. Something most designers (including indsustrial hammer builders) do not look at is the center of gravity. If you add weight to the back of the anvil then you should move the dies toward the back. Idealy they would be over the center of gravity (and the upper ram center of the dies). However, this is usualy not mechanicaly possible especially since you are building a machine with a C-frame for throat depth. You can also add mass to the front of the anvil to balance the extra on the back. The center of gravity business is not that critical but it is the kind of thing good designers look at. Sometimes they work with it, other times they must let it go. But in either case they are aware of it.

- guru - Tuesday, 04/04/06 12:42:23 EDT

TEACHING,SHERING AND SECRETS A "TEACHER" A REAL "TEACHER" IS ALWAYS SHARING AND IS NOT AFRAID OF GIVING AWAY HIS SO CALED "SECRETS AND EXPIRIENCE" TEACHING IS OPENING YOUR KNOLEGE AND HEART TO YOUR STUDENT. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO TEACH HALF TO SHOW HALF AND DEMONSTRATE HALF OR TO LOVE HALF !!!!!!! THE MORE YOU TEACH AND OPEN YOURSELF THE MORE THE INFORMATIN IS OPEN THE LEVEL OF BLACKSMITHIN AND FORGING WILL BE HIGHER AND NEW SYSTEMS AND ELLEMENTS AND TECHNIC WILL BE INCORPORATED IN THE BLACKSMITH SOCIETY AND CREAT A NEW LEVEL OF CULTUER!! THIS IS OUR GOAL OF TEACHERS TO FORGE THE FUTUER AND MAITAIN THE PAST URI HOFI

hofi - Tuesday, 04/04/06 12:54:46 EDT

The guru and Uri Hofi have really it hit it right on about teaching. For some reason, various metalworking fields have attracted some bitter old men who wont share their knowledge- machinists, fabricators, and blacksmiths who think like this are hurting no one but themselves. As the guru said, even if somebody has the money to instantly equip a shop, say a hundred grand in loose change, they dont have the same ideas, history, experience, or interests as you do. Two blacksmiths, given the exact same tools, "trade secrets" and materials to start with, will still produce two very different end products. And frankly, most people arent stubborn or crazy enough to pursue this stuff for their whole lives. I have had employees continuosly since 1982- and lots of them have learned stuff from me, but very few have had the stick-to-it-iveness to set up their own shops when they leave, and none have ended up making things that look anything like what I do.

- Ries - Tuesday, 04/04/06 13:49:20 EDT