| WELCOME to the anvilfire Guru's Den - V. 3.0 |
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THIS is a forum for questions and answers about blacksmithing and general metalworking. Ask the Guru any reasonable question and he or one of his helpers will answer your question, find someone that can, OR research the question for you. This is an archive of posts from April 8 - 15, 2006 on the Guru's Den |
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Dave Boyer. When I ran a R & D lab for the valve co, I too used paint to indicate stress and bending, I used cheap, fast dry spray paint as it seemed to get brittle better than the good spray paint. I got the idea from looking at a few bent things that had been painted. There are some very expensive coatings that used to be available that would do the same thing but were supposed to be able to indicate the level of stretch from counting the cracks as it was supposed to be sorta calibrated. I never used the calibrated stuff. There were also some plastic materials that a part could be duplicated in that would with the right optical viewer show stress distribution. |
| - ptree - Saturday, 04/08/06 10:14:36 EDT |
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Idaho Hammer In I just learned there is a Hammer In at Pawnee's Forge, Blanchard, Idaho (near Coeur d'Alene) today, April 8, from 9:00-5:00 His phone is 208-437-1144 I have no idea why it was never submitted to the Calendar of Events but I'll ask later today. There are precious few such events in this neck of the woods and I'm looking forward to it. Hope to see you there. |
| dschessher - Saturday, 04/08/06 10:25:52 EDT |
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Guru The oxides of alluminium are very hard & adherent.So why it detaches from the surface by simple rubing by skin or cloth & cloth does not contain any oil even then it gets black? |
| yamin - Saturday, 04/08/06 11:42:00 EDT |
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Yamin, Aluminum itself is soft and abrades. The aluminium powder caused by abrasion oxidizes. The mixture of dark colors appears black. |
| - guru - Saturday, 04/08/06 12:08:33 EDT |
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what does it mean by active-passive transition in corrosion of metals? |
| Tahzib - Saturday, 04/08/06 15:38:49 EDT |
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ferrite is more corrosive or cementite and why? |
| Tahzib - Saturday, 04/08/06 15:40:18 EDT |
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Question for Mr Uri Hofi: Is the difference in results mostly from your hammer design or your technique?? I've watched numerous videos of you demonstrating and wonder if any hammer used with your technique would be more efficient, or it the square design itself better? |
| rthibeau - Saturday, 04/08/06 18:15:43 EDT |
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rthibeau, I have a hammer that is similar to the Hofi hammer, though it is not an actual Hofi. I also have Hofi's DVD on hammer technique, and have learned it, for the most part. The technique is excellent, as are Hofi's hammers. The technique does pretty much require a hammer with a squarish face and a cross pein that is very broad. The hammer and the technique complement each other. It really does seem to be a better way to work. |
| vicopper - Saturday, 04/08/06 19:49:22 EDT |
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Ptree: Our lab tested plastic 1/4 scale modles of car & truck frames [our products]. I think they used PVC for fatigue testing and polycarbinate for crash simulation, but I may have them reversed. This was done in the design phase, then full size steel parts would be tested when they felt they were close to where they needed to be. I don't think the paint would be as usefull on less ductile parts, like on a coil spring I doubt it would show anything. |
| Dave Boyer - Saturday, 04/08/06 22:33:39 EDT |
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what is a good sorce for forge components? |
| i - Saturday, 04/08/06 22:56:25 EDT |
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Greetings, My name is Jesse. I am 18 years old and have some experience in metal working. Not a lot, but I am learning. I am understanding the processes and methods to sword making, but I can't find any information on how to make a sword scabbard. If anyone has any helpful tips, books, or links, I would be most greatful. Thank you, -Jesse. |
| jesse - Saturday, 04/08/06 23:39:20 EDT |
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Forge Parts: ii, What kind of forge? Coal, Oil, Gas? Hobby or professional? DIY or full fab shop capability? Our advertisers, Blacksmiths Depot, Blacksmiths Supply, Centaur Forge and Pieh Tool Co., all sell coal forge parts and forges. They also sell comnplete gas forges. We sell Kaowool and ITC-100 for building gas forges. We also have plans for a beginner DIY coal forge on our plans page as well as hoods for shop forges. |
| - guru - Saturday, 04/08/06 23:55:43 EDT |
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Scabbards: Jesse, our history and technology experts will tell you this is and has been a wholely seperate craft from sword making. Like swords, I recommend you start small. Make a holster for a folder, then one for a skinner and then a hunting knife. Sword scabbards are also like the blades they held, very different depending on the society and class of owner. Simple ones were leather often with a hard dry rawhide liner. Modern makers use a plastic fiber material to replace the rawhide as it is more dependable for safety. Sword scabbards are made of fabric, leather, wood, sheet metal or any combination of the four. The craft is the craft of working each of these materials. Then you have painting and decoration which also varies and it the study of THOSE crafts as well as the design. Where there is ART you study ART. If you want to use Celtic knots in a decoration there are only two books on the subject written a generation apart by a father and son. These then require a mastery of the logic and a skill at working out the puzzle of each original knot and having it follow the rules of the craft. A minor detail. A trifle. But you can spent a lifetime studying it. Engraving? The same. Also used on blades, hilts and scabbards. It is such a specialty that it is almost always subbed out, AND often costs more than the original piece by a significant factor. Some of the books on knife and sword making have a little on the subject. Start there. But you will also need to study the craft of working the materials of your choice. Then the ART. The art is found in museums and books on museum collections as well as specialty books. See our Sword Making FAQ and its Resource list (linked above as well as on our FAQs and Armoury page. |
| - guru - Sunday, 04/09/06 00:32:26 EDT |
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I'am helping a friend repairing desaltization electrodes due to corrosion.I was told the material was stainless steel,but when I took it apart,I wasn't convinced it was s/s.Using the spark test on a grinding stone I discovered the non-ferrous metal had a multitude of white sparks,not yellow as with stainless steel.What kind of metal could this be? |
| Joe Domonkos - Sunday, 04/09/06 10:29:18 EDT |
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Joe, I am not versed on this technology. However, there are stainlesses and stainlesses. There are dozens of alloys and they all contain a majority of iron. In almost any electrolytic process there is a transfer of metalic ions. Eletrodes eventualy degrade and become too porus to be useful. In the process iron is the most soluable and would be built up on the surface of stainless electrodes. A surface spark test would show more iron. I would check with the manufacturer of the device and ask what the expected life of the electrodes are and about replacing them or the proper material. To find out exactly what you have would take a laboratory analysis. I can recommend one if you need. |
| - guru - Sunday, 04/09/06 11:28:52 EDT |
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Titanium makes very bright white sparks when you grind it. |
| Mike B - Sunday, 04/09/06 14:03:09 EDT |
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Tornados: 23 dead in Dyersburg last week. This week we had another weekend of killer storms and 10 more died. Bad spring this year. I was camping in KY and spent Saturday evening huddled in the bath house at the campground listening for freight trains. Not the most fun I ever had. Hope they all missed Ken. |
| quenchcrack - Sunday, 04/09/06 14:45:17 EDT |
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I tried to call Ken. Phone answering machine is working. Knowing Ken he is out helping neighbors. |
| - guru - Sunday, 04/09/06 15:29:33 EDT |
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Quenchcrack, I know what you mean. We have had quite a few severe storms this season already. Had to train some set up guys at work from the home plant in Japan. I trained them on the emergency response plan. The bit about earthquakes was no problem. the part about tornados took quite a bit of explaining by the translator. I'm not sure they believed me about how fast they appear and how severe. An hour and a half later we had a big, severe line came through. I though I would die listening to them watching the weather radar in the break room. They really freaked. |
| - ptree - Sunday, 04/09/06 20:42:20 EDT |
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I recently bought a 2# rounding(turning), hammer and within 3 days I was experiencing mild tennins elbow symptoms so I put it down and they went away. Could anyone tell me why this should happen? Using a 2 and 1.5# ball pien and a 3# cross pien for 2+ years hasn't bothered me at all? I'm thinking angle of blow on contact (I've already trimmed the handle to duplicate the other 3 hammers I use constantly so that's not it). I'd appreciate any and all input, thanks. |
| Thumper - Sunday, 04/09/06 22:22:02 EDT |
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Trivia tidbit. I heard this out shooting with my black powder buddies today. The Term "ball pien" comes from the navy. Seems that back in the old days, when a vessel was preparing for battle the ships carpenter(or mechanic) would hand out hammers to pien the rust off the balls so they'd load smoothly. They discovered an extra added bonus in that they would also shoot straighter for longer distances. This is allegedy where the idea to dimple golf balls came from !!!! |
| Thumper - Sunday, 04/09/06 22:29:39 EDT |
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Joe; Sheath & Scabbard Making: Jim Hrisoulas's book, The Complete Bladesmith (ISBN 0-87364-430-1) has a chapter on leather work for sheaths and his late book, The Master Bladesmith (ISBN 0-87364-612-6), has a chapter on scabbards. They may be available through Inter-Library Loan (ILL). I'm sure there's other sources out there. You may also want to try over at: www.swordforum.com A lovely day on the banks of the lower Potomac. Drilled some bronze fittings for the Sæ Hrafn after working on her in the rain yesterday. Bronze drills funny. ;-) Visit your National Parks: www.nps.gov Go viking: www.longshipco.org |
| Bruce Blackistone (Atli) - Sunday, 04/09/06 22:37:42 EDT |
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golf balls vs ball pien. Did find a site talking about the dimples in golf balls but know references to ball peining cannon balls as of yet |
| Ralph - Sunday, 04/09/06 23:57:33 EDT |
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Thumper, Pien, pein, peen, pane, however you spell it, refers to the shape of the hammer opposite the face. In my experience looking at hammers, peens are smaller in size than the face. For example, on a farrier's rounding hammer, the convex face is called a ball face, not a peen, because it is the same diameter as the opposing face. There are ball peens of course, but also cross peens and straight peens, not to mention the slender cross peen on a Warrington hammer, a woodworker's tool. The slender peen allows the worker to start a short nail or tack held between thumb and finger. If you believe the cannonball/golf ball story, I have a Brooklyn Bridge I would like to sell you. |
| Frank Turley - Monday, 04/10/06 08:59:53 EDT |
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I have an idea for a makeshift anvil, so I thought I would run it by and see if you guys found any major things wrong with it; I was going to fill an old wheel with concrete, and weld a 1/4" sheet of steel on top of it. Has anyone done this before? If so, how did it work out? Thanks in advance. ---Rob |
| - Rob - Monday, 04/10/06 11:21:13 EDT |
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Frank, Thanks for the definition on the pein,peen,pien. Not quite sure what that had to do with my trivia posting though. If you think it was a bit far-fetched, then you should look up the term "Magnus effect" on the net. In the development of dimples on the golf ball, the Magnus effect on cannonballs was sited as to the reason golf balls flew off center (this theory didn't prove true, even though Sir Issac Newton weighed in on the subject), but the connection between the two sphere's is documented at that level. The use of dimpling made all the difference on golf ball flight trajectory. Perhaps what I wrote wasn't in any history books, but given the dialogue about the two dissimilar balls, it's not inconcievable and stranger discoveries have been made under even stranger circumstances. Thanks for the bridge offer anyhow :). |
| Thumper - Monday, 04/10/06 11:58:40 EDT |
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Hofi were are you teaching at In the USA? Yamin This might be for iron oxide or steel which ever but when iron/steel rusts it goes by levels and basically decomps so the top layer fails off and a new layer is revieled for oxidation. Jesse go to armourarcheive.org (I think thats right scroll up to friday's posting that site should be there incase I didn't spell it right) I wish I could come to the demonstration that ken is throughing but I have school and my truck gets like 10 miles to the gallon highway which driving from eastern kansas to tennesee would cost me more than i want to think about. Will there by any chance be a web cam feed for this event or anything along those lines?? If so were can I acess the feed at? By the way I got the tin to finally take form on my gauntlets I had to tack them to a piece of steel pipe and heat them up and let them cool for about 36 hours. Then I grinded the weld off and they stayed. I thought it would work and it did so I got 1 word SWEET. By the way I don't like to use ball pein hammers on smithing big things but they do come in handy on bending the finger gauntlets bending them and all. Just make sure of ONE THING the head wont fly off. HAd that happen to me and lets just say hitting a propane tank nozzle for a BBQ grill WASNT A GOOD THING. I did how ever dispose of the tank in the proper manor TOOK IT THE COUNTY dump and told them what happened. By the way whats all the hub bub about the HOFI power hammers did I miss something about them? No offense ment towards hofi himself. |
| - Tyler - Monday, 04/10/06 12:17:39 EDT |
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Just out of curiostiy how many people live in Kansas and still freak out about tornadoes? Cause i have one thing to say about them. Thats great there giant swirling vortexes of death and there frequent in kansas anything else new in kansas? Really whats new please tell me. Why do people freak out about tornaodoes in kansas I think there awesome I stand on my front porch and look around when the sirens go off but thats just me PS just saw the thing from quenchcrack. No offense ment towards anyone and may god have mercy on the peoples souls that died AMEN |
| - Tyler - Monday, 04/10/06 12:29:12 EDT |
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Rob; What you would wind up with would be a 14" diameter container of powdered concrete, starting with the first good hit. The 1/4" plate is nowhere near rigid enough to pound on, and it would flex like a drumhead. You'd be better off with a good, heavy chunk of junkyard steel of 100 pounds or more. Our esteemed Thomas Powers has beat a lot of iron on a piece of discarded boxcar coupler, for instance. |
| 3dogs - Monday, 04/10/06 12:31:51 EDT |
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I like Thumpers story. That’s the kind of thing that adds color and texture to the fabric of life. |
| manidemers.com - Monday, 04/10/06 14:02:56 EDT |
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Encased Concrete Anvils: Guess we need a FAQ on this one. It keeps coming up. What you are proposing makes an "OK" stock stand or base for a "third hand". Otherwise is is pretty useless. 1) Concrete is not nearly as heavy as folks give it credit. It weighs 144 pounds per cubic foot compared to steel at 490 pounds. A 3.4 : 1 difference. 2) Concrete is hard when apposed to flesh but its modulus of rupture is only 600 to 700 PSI and overall compressive strength 5,000 PSI. The lowest grade of cast iron has a rupture strength of 26,000 PSI and compressive strength of 83,000 PSI. Modulus of rupture does not apply to steel (you cannot even compare steel and casti-iron, much less concrete). 3) When concrete is exposed to high temperatures steam is created and it spalls (explodes). This is both dangerous and makes a mess of the concrete. 4) Most concrete shrinks when it hardens and dries. When a steel container is filled with it the concrete eventualy pulls away from the surface of the container leaving loose spots. 5) Steel stacked up flat does not make a good anvil as the transmission of the impact force through a boundry is very poor. Steel over a softer substance provides little or no added benifit. Concrete has no rebound thus would not add anything to a steel plate laying over top of it. Too light, too weak, not heat resistant, not a good design. . . Concrete is good for many things but not for anvils. When using concrete for dead weight you can increase its density somewhat by replacing the stone agregate with steel shot and slugs or even old nuts and bolts. In nuclear they ised to use a very heavy dense stone as the agregate. Steel is still three times heavier. However it cannot replace all the stone or the sand. When filling steel containers with concrete a network of steel rebar welded to the container will help reduce shrinkage. If added mass is the goal the rebar also adds that. Concrete filled machinery bases have been tried and failed due to shrinkage and breakdown of the concrete. It can be done but it does not replace steel or cast iron. |
| - guru - Monday, 04/10/06 14:20:41 EDT |
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I'm new to blacksmithing and would like to get started in it, my question is would an open sided shop with just a roof to keep out rain and a earth floor be sufficient for the forge and anvil etc.? I would have a seperate smaller shop for my machine tools, and for storing hammers, tongs, chisels etc. |
| masina - Monday, 04/10/06 14:56:27 EDT |
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Masina, Open air shops are the best under certain circumstances. 1) Is theft going to be a problem? 2) Does your climate alow year round outdoor work AND do you need to work in your shop in the winter? If the answer to both of these is no then an open air shop is great. They have the advantage of having excellent ventilation, light and room for oversized work. Earthen floors are fine provided the soil is high in sand or clay or both. Fertile loams with high degrees of organic matter are inflamable and hot steel dropped on it will start a smouldering fire that you may not notice until your entire shop is in flames. Hard clay is best. Fine gravel over clay is OK. Sand is difficult to keep flat. The down side to open air shops is that wind can make it difficult to work OR under certain circumstances smoke will collect instead of blowing away. Hoods and stacks are sometimes useless but needed otherwise. However, open air shops using charcoal or gas need no chimney. You want the floor to be a high spot or have good drainage around your building so that the floor stays dry. |
| - guru - Monday, 04/10/06 15:19:18 EDT |
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Kevin there are several ways which i dont want to get into. The easiest is just mark out the size with the orginal hand gaurd and enlarge it thats the easiest way to do it and the hilt just find a nice piece of oak and widdel it down to the size you want then when thats done hallow the inside out and you should be able to fit the hilt of the blade into the oak hilt and make sure its a tight fit other wise your blade can come out if you swing it and kill some one or damage a wall really bad. Thats the way I do those types of things but when i do i make sure they weapon is for display use only and not for fencing or stuff like that then thats an entirely different mounting process. PS scabbarbs are a pain to make and if you live some were cold and you use your sword alot then have fun if its leather it can shrink so much that you can pull your sword out of the scabbard untill you warm it up. Had that happen to me a few times this winter and to my buddies. |
| - Tyler - Monday, 04/10/06 15:25:47 EDT |
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another thing I for got to mention I dont use a blade smithing anvil I use a normal good old every day anvil and might I add it works very well. But I have one problem my face is starting to bowel a litle can I fix this or do I need to get another anvil. IT was made in 1888 so I'dimagine its ready for a little TLC. The bowel is only 150 thousandths deep but it still affects my armor making and my knife blade forging. |
| - Tyler - Monday, 04/10/06 15:39:12 EDT |
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Lets leave the urban legends to the sites that specialize in them. "Back Derrivations" are a common and misleading way to go. If you need more colour in your life there is a great possum thread going on across the street. Tyler, medieval swords had wooden scabbards that were then covered with leather. There is a specific term for folks who go outside when the tornado siren goes off---it's "evolution in action". Thomas |
| Thomas P - Monday, 04/10/06 15:44:09 EDT |
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I am a Certified Journeyman Farrier so I've got experience with welding, etc.. in the forge. I was recently aproached with the idea of melting glass (beer bottles)into blocks. My questions are the proper procedure to melt and cool my glass. I would also like your opinion on which forge to buy or build for this process. I,ve always used propane but am leaning toward coal. Thank you for any help you can give. James Irvine Palmer,Alaska |
| james irvine - Monday, 04/10/06 17:28:35 EDT |
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James, I have sorta experemented with glass and iron composite jobs. FOr fun and self education mostly. All I can say is coal or gas work OK Just be aware the glass in a semi-molten state will stick in and BURN you like crazy. Do not have a crowd around as they will distracy you at the crucial point be all of you hurt. Glass will get real runny fast and then you will have long strings of hot molten glass all over the place. I sujest you start just will the neck portion so you can learn the glass dynamics with a SMALL piece so you do not have a large potential burn and fire inciedent. Just my opinion. Remember that heat and glass or metal are inheriently DANGEROUS events. Wear the PPE needed. long sleeves, pants, closed shoes, preferably leather as well as leather apron. James why BTW are you wanting to make glass blocks from beer bottles? Also do you know a Jerry from up that area? |
| Ralph - Monday, 04/10/06 18:13:31 EDT |
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Whoa.....attitude about the discussion of the possible origin of the name "ball pein"? Let's lighten up some shall we? I humbly apologize to anyone I've besmirched who's name begins or ends in the words "ball" or "pein,peen,pien". If I wanted less color in my life, I suppose I could go to the MIT Metallurgical chat room for entertainment but I choose this site instead, because it is entertaining AND informative and filled with creative and inqusitive minds which lead to similarly intriguing questions and answers. |
| Thumper - Monday, 04/10/06 18:15:23 EDT |
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Balance blocks and pivots out of an large scale(semi scale). Any body know what type and number of steel might be? Freddie Haire gave me several pieces of this steel. Chuck |
| sandpile - Monday, 04/10/06 20:18:12 EDT |
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Sandpile, Can you spark test them? Test the unknown to a known. |
| Frank Turley - Monday, 04/10/06 20:32:13 EDT |
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Alright, no concrete anvils. Masina, my shop is all out-door. By my experience, outdoor seems to be the best option, at least for me. There is no loud echo every time you pound steel, there's nothing better for ventilation, and it's great to be working outside in the fresh air. The soil around my area is stirdy enough to hold up under pressure for about 3 months in one spot. This is of course my area however, and my biggest problem is wind. |
| - Rob - Monday, 04/10/06 21:09:26 EDT |
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Hello Frank. how have you and yours been??-- I have some S7, but no H series. I suspect this stuff is really hard. I put the smallest piece in the forge, if it drops down to a darker orange it gets hard. I did not hammer on it at a red. I am going to call the scale company tomorrow. They probably will not know what it is, but again they might. |
| sandpile - Monday, 04/10/06 21:18:02 EDT |
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Weather: Tornados about a week ago were about 60-80 miles to the west of me. The one (or more) last Friday apparently hit a couple of miles to the SW and about 30 miles to the NE. Found tornado debris in yard, such as coke can, plastic milk jug and pieces of siding and asphalt roof shingles. I was in OH at the time and was asked at the air hammer workshop if they hit my area. Now pleased to say no. My storm shelter is buckled in my one-ton Dodge flatbed. About 6,700 pounds so it isn't going far anyway. At least better than the tin can I live in. My new air hammer is in the shop and operating. Will be available for hands-on operation at the Anvilfire.com Hammer-In on my farm April 21-23. Weighed hammer at Co-op at 710 pounds. About a 70-lb ram with top die. Anvil is 6" round MS 32". Flat dies, 4140, oil quenched. At this point SOF&A's design is still more or less in the prototyping stage. Trying to operate it on a 2 1/2 HP compressor. Not up to full-power, but a lot of that may be a 1/4" air hose. Will purchase a larger diameter hose to see if it makes a difference. |
| Ken Scharabok - Monday, 04/10/06 21:43:40 EDT |
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Air Hose / Piping: Ken for power hammers this needs to be pretty large. 1/2" and UP. Hammer will run well for a heat IF you are lucky and can drain the tank. Then you will need to wait for it to pump back up. Chambersburg called for an inlet pipe of 1" on hammers from 100 to 300 pounds then 1-1/2". 3/4" is probably as big as a 100 needs. and the 300 1-1/4". However, when specing plumbing for industrial use they kept it simple. 1, 1.5, 2, 2.5, 3. . . They also recommeded a dedicated reciever near the hammer. When using a portable air compressor you just put it close and use a short hose. Hose length is a HUGE killer on air flow and pressure. |
| - guru - Monday, 04/10/06 22:00:47 EDT |
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hi. i am wanting to learn how to forge swords and have a question. what are the pros/cons of a gas forge and coal forge when it comes to smithing swords. i would REALLY appreciate finding out. thanks wayne (please do not give out this email address) thanks again |
| Wayne C - Monday, 04/10/06 22:02:36 EDT |
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Scale Weights: The will be anything from cast iron to medium carbon steel. Manufacturer may not even know. Pivots and arms are a different story and will be speced pretty close. However, manufacturers usualy consider this information proprietary. |
| - guru - Monday, 04/10/06 22:06:26 EDT |
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Jock these pieces are from a huge 100 foot scale for weighing in and out of a feed yard. The pieces I am wondering about are the 6"X3/4"X3/4" with a groove down the middle for the balance blocks to sit in. This scale has been in operation since the eightys and this is the first time the blocks have been replaced and there is no visible wear. They will weight up to a hundred trucks a day. This stuff is really hard. |
| sandpile - Monday, 04/10/06 22:17:49 EDT |
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Hello Jock, I hope you are well. Do you have any current info on the Mark Krause hammer plans? Are they still available? Do you have current contact details for Mark? |
| Bruce Beamish - Tuesday, 04/11/06 01:56:30 EDT |
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Is there informatio available on the Catalan Forge, and how to construct one? Thanks |
| Duane Chellevold - Tuesday, 04/11/06 03:10:30 EDT |
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Could you elaborate your expertise about the following? 1. Forge Bar and Billet - high temperature alloys; 2. Caster - evaluate and implement line-ups to reduce costs, improve efficiencies and product quality in arc melting, continuous casting and primary processing; 3. Strip Finishing with a focus on continuous improvement to reduce cycle times and manage process controls to reduce variation and improve product quality; 4. Cold heading and cold forming specializing in nickel-based alloys |
| - Bill - Tuesday, 04/11/06 04:02:24 EDT |
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Dear Gurgh I am a entry level Meta1lurgist, these questions are part of an interview. 1. Forge Bar and Billet - high temperature alloys; 2. Caster - evaluate and implement line-ups to reduce costs, improve efficiencies and product quality in arc melting, continuous casting and primary processing; 3. Strip Finishing with a focus on continuous improvement to reduce cycle times and manage process controls to reduce variation and improve product quality; 4. Cold heading and cold forming specializing in nickel-based alloys |
| Bill - Tuesday, 04/11/06 04:10:05 EDT |
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Bill: No offense but if you are an entry level metallurgist you should already have at least a bachelor's degree in the subject field. Thus, you should already be familiar with the reference sources for such information. If not, you wouldn't make much of an employee. Rather sound like homework questions to me. |
| Ken Scharabok - Tuesday, 04/11/06 05:21:41 EDT |
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Catalan Forge; Duane: There has been a lot of work with small bloomeries of late, but very little (to my knowledge) with the Catalan forge. I'll check some of my sources at home tonight. In the meantime a net search may help you find further information, especially since they continued in use, at least in the Appalachian mountains of the U.S., into the late 19th or early 20th centuries as bloomeries. Colonial Williamsburg built one about 20 years ago, and published a report in a book on crafts. I had a copy, but it seemed to have walked away. You may want to check with the Colonial Williamsburg Foundation to see if the book is still in print; a quick search of the site turns up: Colonial Williamsburg Journal, Volume 8, No. 2; Winter 1985 "It's Ironmaking Time" by David Harvey (9 pages). One of the key factors to note about the Catalan forge is that where the smaller, early medieval bloomeries were small-time operations, supplied and operated by three of four people, these are beginning to be on an industrial scale, requiring a lot more people to “feed the beast.” Not as much as a blast furnace, but certainly more than the small bloomeries. The payoff is efficiency in production- more wrought iron or steel per man-hour (but you still have to invest a lot more men and hours). Please keep us informed if you find any good sites. Cool and clear on the banks of the Potomac. Visit your National Parks: www.nps.gov Go viking: www.longshipco.org |
| Bruce Blackistone (Atli) - Tuesday, 04/11/06 09:04:47 EDT |
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Bloomeries: Lee Sauder and Skip Williams at theRockbridge Bloomery have done more research and published more on the subject than anyone I know. They started with a large elaborate furnace that took a LONG day to fire with poor results. Now they have the process down to the essentials. This trick is the firing DETAILS more than the furnace. Fuel size, how much air and when, roasting the ore, ore types. . . People all over the world have been working on this process and in perhaps the last 10 years or less we have gone from mearly knowing what the furnaces to looked like and what was done with them to all the details of operation. Although there is no economic purpose in making iron this way the new knowledge of historical methods is very important. |
| - guru - Tuesday, 04/11/06 09:24:04 EDT |
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Duane Chellevold, Catalan Forge Process. There is a paragraph and a diagram on the process of making "spongy iron" by the direct Catalan Forge process in Hugh P. Tiemann, "Iron and Steel a Pocket Encyclopedia", 3rd edition, 1933. The cross-sectional diagram of the forge and the information was taken from Thurston, "Iron and Steel". The forge is described as a large open-fronted hearth with some depth to it and sides to hold the charcoal and ore. The hearth has a stack and usually a single tuyere inserted about two feet below the level of the top of the fuel. It takes about 3 hours to form a 300 pound mass of iron, the mass being lifted out from under the fuel and worked under the hammer into "a bloom or loup". One furnace was expected to produce from one ton to 2500 pounds of iron per day. Thurston estimated that it took about 3500 to 5000 pounds of charcoal and 1 1/2 to 1 3/4 tons of selected ore per one ton of blooms. The selected ore was equivalent to from 2 1/2 to 4 tons of ore, as mined. |
| Frank Turley - Tuesday, 04/11/06 10:58:44 EDT |
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just to start off i want to say ive been a fan of anvil fire for a long time and think its a really good site for many like myself wanting to do some of this themselves. Recently though i decided to want to become a smith myself mabe due to my love for fantasy stories or what not but im having seconds doubt about only about ten percent but still its there and was wondering what a real smith would do after the training or what not so if you could help me out with more or less some information on different things that you do with the skill as a career. |
| kong lo - Tuesday, 04/11/06 11:04:14 EDT |
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I have to agree with Ken on this one. Given I am no metallurgist and don't plan on studying the subject any more than I need to. Those do sound like home work questions and should be very easy to look up in a book or on the internet. Thomas P I know that the scabbards are made of wood and covered in leather. But they still can shrink enough to make it were you can't hardly pull your sword out of the scabbard. I got to ask this question to because I didnt get an answer back yesterday. How do I fix the face on my anvil? It has a bowl in its face and its affecting how i make my armour and knife blades plus many other things. James I personally wouldn't use coal just for the fact that theres alot of impurites and might possibly make the glass look smoky. But thats my thinking. I would use the propane for the glass and coal for heating metals. |
| - Tyler - Tuesday, 04/11/06 12:02:59 EDT |
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Glass- all the glassblowers I know use gas fired ovens to melt the glass. Built similarly to a forge, with refractory. But melting it is only half the journey- to get it to cool down without cracking is the big problem. For this, they all use computer controlled annealing ovens, usually electric. These have small Plc controlled thermostats to cool the glass over time- usually at least 12 to 24 hours, but often longer for heavier pieces. I have heard of big chunks needing controlled temp drops over several days. |
| - Ries - Tuesday, 04/11/06 12:13:39 EDT |
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As a carreer. . kong lo, this is a difficult question. It depends a great deal on the individual and their location. There are few blacksmiths shops where one can simply apply for a job and go to work. Most blacksmiths are self employed in a range of occupations. Blacksmithing is also a good skill to give engineers and metallurists practical experiance rather than just theoretical. Artist blacksmiths are generally self employed creating art, architictural work or historic reproductions. Some do nothing but sculptural art and others specialize in architectural gates, railings and such. Famous artists such as Alexander Calder used blacksmithing in their work and blacksmiths such as Simon Benneton are more artist than smith. Fabricatiors are builders of architectural railings and from purchased elements which they weld together. Most do no forging, it is all cut, weld and grind. In the past they could purchase simple decorative elements made by others but today they can purchase some really well made hand forged elements. This has blurred the line between fabricator and blacksmith and many fabricators are looking at forging to expand their market into higher level work. Fabricators employ numerous workers to do fitup, cutting, welding, grinding and finishing. Armourers still have a place making armour for theater, reinactors and movies. Some is only for show while much is also made to historical standards. Most armourers are self employed. Bladesmiths often forge blades, parts of blades or make their own material. Generally they specialize in a size or type of blade. There is a large market for high quality hand crafted knives. However, the size of the market has also created a great deal of competition as well as spurred imports. Hobby Smiths are a large segment of modern smithing. As a hobby they do not need to make a living at their craft but many do earn a suplemental income. Hobby smiths are often as well equiped as professionals and ocassionaly have skills equal to top professionals. In the U.S. the vast number of smiths are Hobby Smiths. Hobby smiths fill the blacksmithing schools and keep the tool suppliers in business. Hobby Smiths also do a lot or reinacting and primitive smithing. Time periods range from the late Bronze Age to WWII. To many the challange of learning to set up to forge in a stone age environment is a goal in itself. There are more. Jewelers and smiths are closely related with the primary difference being the size of the work they produce. Auto body and motorcyle customizers often employ blacksmithing techniques. Makers of steel drums use techniques akin to making plate armour and must have a feel for temper as well as a musical sense. Besides fabricators that do architectural work there are shops that specializing in commercial bending and welding. Machine shops often need someone that can make something other than by making chips. Then there are folks that make orthopedic braces and specialty medical appliances. Many of the shapes they create by cutting and grinding can be efficiently made by forging. It is not the universal skill but it can be applied in many situations. As you study it you will find more applications. |
| - guru - Tuesday, 04/11/06 12:15:10 EDT |
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Anvil fix: Tyler, dont. We have gone into wht whys and why nots many times here. |
| - guru - Tuesday, 04/11/06 12:18:06 EDT |
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Kong Lo- There are a lot of different kinds of blacksmiths today- some of them actually have jobs, but most of them MAKE their own jobs. There are a few jobs out there for blacksmiths- you could google Scots Forge, for example, to see a big company that hires industrial blacksmiths. There are a fair amount of knifemakers, and even a few swordmakers, who support themselves- but they must have incredible drive, business skills, and stick to itiveness, along with skill as a bladesmith. There are art blacksmiths who make furniture, fireplace tools, and hardware. There are ornamental blacksmiths who make fences, gates, window grilles, and stairs. There are liturgical blacksmiths who make religious items. There are Toolmaking blacksmiths, who make woodworking tools, metalworking tools, jewelers tools, and custom stone carving tools. There are jobs out there- not a lot, and not easy to get, but there are some. But I would say you have to love the trade, and study it, much more than you would to be a plumber, electrician, or a software writer. Which is good, in my opinion, as it selects out a lot of mediocre types we find in many industrial trades. If you go to the blacksmith ring link on this site, there are over 180 different sites, many showing contemporary blacksmiths, and the range of work they do. |
| - Ries - Tuesday, 04/11/06 12:21:07 EDT |
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I have that Williamsburg publication at home, if it's unpacked I can give you the cite on it. IIRC they had not gotten it working very well when they published. Thomas |
| Thomas P - Tuesday, 04/11/06 12:27:33 EDT |
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I'm going to try to make some wootz steel. Here's my plan: make a volcano-like structure from red clay, fill it with charcoal and mild steel, light it, turn the blast on, wait for it to melt, let it cool, and pull the wootz out. Will this work? Do I need to keep it molten for a certain amount of time to let it absorb the carbon and also, what makes it show a pattern? |
| - Tyler Murch - Tuesday, 04/11/06 12:48:29 EDT |
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Blacksmiths at Scot Forge: Actually, while we do have a postion title "blacksmith" it is not what you would think. At Scot Forge, a blacksmith is the lead man on a 4 man crew. He is resposible for making sure that finished forgings are correct in terms of size. I have never seen a production forging held with tongs or forged with a hand held hammer. All our forgings are large enough that heavy equipment is used for handling. I doubt that we would be able to find a person with the necessary skills off the street to serve as a blacksmith. What we do is hire people who are willing to work very hard 60 hrs a week and train them in house. You start of as a Grinder, move to Blacksmith's helper, and then to Blacksmith. It usually takes quite a few years to be promoted to blacksmith because the promotion is given only when there is an opening. More traditonal industrial blacksmithing is done by the maintaince departments at large closed die forge shops such as Clifford Jacobs and Ladish. Both of these companies employ a blacksmith to make tools for use on the production hammers. I know there are several other closed die shops with simialar set ups. Several years ago while I was between jobs I actually saw a job opening posted on Monster.com for a blacksmith to reforge pavement breakers, and when I worked at GM there was a blacksmith in the maintaince shop who made hooks and reforged air chisels. So there are industrial blacksmith out there, but most of these companies don't expect to find a blacksmith ready work, rather they train them in house, just as Scot Forge does. I have heard that some of the larger onamental ironwork shops do higher blacksmiths who have gone through the collgiate blackmsmithing programs no offered by a few universities. Patrick |
| Patrick Nowak - Tuesday, 04/11/06 12:55:30 EDT |
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Tyler: That is not wootz, that's simple remelting to form a bloom, and will take much more charcoal than you suspect. When Don Fogg's forum is back up (which they promise will be soon!) I strongly suggest you go there and read the archives from the smelting forum. Better yet, do a web search on Wootz, particularly searching for the .pdf format dissertation on the same by Ann Feuerbach and a similar work by Paul Verhoeven. Direct reduction of iron oxide (iron ore) to steel is possible in a bloomery furnace, which is almost but not quite what you describe. Wootz ("bulat" in Russian and Persian) is a crucible steel with rather specific alloy constituents. These alloy constituents are what form the large, abrasion-resistant carbides which produce the distinctive dendritic patterns of hyper-eutectoid crucible steels. It's a LOT more than iron and carbon stewing in a fire. May I also suggest looking at knifenetwork.com/forums, particularly the Outpost and Historical Inspiration sections. I have made some buttons of crucible-reduced magnetite ore steel that shows dendritic carbides but isn't really wootz in a gas forge. It can be done, but you really need to understand exactly what you're trying to do before you attempt it unless you really get your crank turned by inexplicable failures. |
| Alan-L - Tuesday, 04/11/06 13:08:33 EDT |
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I can't find rivets locally for blacksmithing. Who sells them online at a reasonable price? Thanks |
| Mike H - Tuesday, 04/11/06 13:08:42 EDT |
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Resurfacing Anvils: http://www.anvilfire.com/FAQs/anvil-3.htm Pretty much says it all... Wootz Steel: If it were that simple they would have made a lot more of it, and everybody would be doing it. Sounds like you need a lot more studying before you even try it. What's your crucible made of? How is it sealed? What's your carbon source in the crucible? How long do you keep it at heat? How hot? Experimentation is good, but to go off half-cocked, before you've done all the research and gathered the facts and put a little experience under your belt, is to set yourself up for continuous frustration. Hit the books until they don't hit back; and then get ambitious when you find the questions that they can't answer. |
| Bruce Blackistone (Atli) - Tuesday, 04/11/06 13:24:47 EDT |
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Oh, and what Alan said! ;-) |
| Bruce Blackistone (Atli) - Tuesday, 04/11/06 13:27:00 EDT |
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Mike H, You can find some rivets through the Centaur Forge catalog and website. I have the same problem, although I can hear some of the "old-timers" in my mind saying "Why don't you just make them yourself, after all, you ARE a blacksmith aren't you?" I have also had a small amount of luck finding some small rivets at a local Salvage/Liquidation store. You never know where you might find them. |
| Paul Bilodeau - Tuesday, 04/11/06 13:27:54 EDT |
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Thumper - I thought your hypothosis was intersting (and not far of topic)!! :) whats the url for the MIT Metallurgical chat room - sounds interesting.... Is Scots forge one of the biggest in the US? - some tasty looking kit in there! |
| john n - Tuesday, 04/11/06 13:28:16 EDT |
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Dear, guru I live in the thumb of michigan and I cant find any tools to get started in blacksmithin. Were Should I look |
| CJ - Tuesday, 04/11/06 14:54:49 EDT |
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Paul, I knew when I asked the question that somebody would tell me to make them myself. :) I would much rather spend my time doing other things however. Thanks for the input. I'll check them out. |
| Mike H - Tuesday, 04/11/06 15:15:25 EDT |
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Mike H: Have you tried Centaur Forge and Poor Boy Blacksmith Tools for rivets? Both are forum advertisers. Just click on the NAVIGATE anvilfire box and scroll down to suppliers. Centaur has mostly short length rivets. I have some up to 4" and suitable for large strap hinges. As far as a resonable price bear in mind pretty well anything made out of steel has gone up significantly in price within the past two years. |
| Ken Scharabok - Tuesday, 04/11/06 15:23:45 EDT |
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CJ: - Click on the NAVIGATE anvilfire box in upper right then scroll down to ABANA Affilitate Link. The group which covers your area may be able to help you find tools. - Try placing a classified ads in nearby small town newspapers to the effect: WANTED: Blacksmithing tools. XXX-XXXX. Still lots of anvils, pan forges and some hand tools in outbuildings, etc. - Get in the habit of asking just about anyone you encounter where you might find blacksmithing tools in your area. Someone may remember Old Lady McClusky's husband was the area blacksmith and may still have his tools. - Ask tool sellers are flea markets. Perhaps they have heavier tools at home they just didn't want to lug around. - Always eBay, but watch out for S&H costs. - For new professional-level tools use the navigate link down to forum advertisers. |
| Ken Scharabok - Tuesday, 04/11/06 15:29:36 EDT |
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Hello, I am looking for a resource for already patined zinc for a countertop. We need the 'aged' look at the time of installtion. Thank you, Jennifer |
| Jennifer Kalister - Tuesday, 04/11/06 15:29:59 EDT |
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This is for the newb's looking for tools and reading materials. Tools can be found in a variety of places I have had lots of luck finding them at auctions and welding supply shops. As for the reading material go to your library and ask for the Internet loan. There is a forum on this stie for books to read. I have read a few of them and there well worth the recomendations. |
| - Tyler - Tuesday, 04/11/06 15:57:24 EDT |
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Scale knife edges and the mating pivot blocks frequently were made of stellite in high-grade mechanical truck scales. This is a non-ferrous alloy. in later units I have seen them made of M2, carbide and other alloys. I have an antique 2000 lb platform scale and in it they were originaly made of 1095, and were rusted out when I got the scale. I replaced them with M2 from ground toolbits, and recalibrated the scale. |
| - John Odom - Tuesday, 04/11/06 16:23:21 EDT |
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What is the process to make the diamond shape in the center of a cross where the vertical and horizontal portions meet? |
| - spec3 - Tuesday, 04/11/06 16:33:29 EDT |
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spec3 look at iforge demo 56. It should point you in the correct way |
| Ralph - Tuesday, 04/11/06 17:09:27 EDT |
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Rivets: If you type in the word Rivet in Google the two largest suppliers of rivets are advertised links. Then as pointed out we have a couple suppliers that provide rivets. MANY, MANY years ago you could walk into any hardware store and buy a variety of steel rivets. You could mail order them from Sears and other places. Those times are gone. If you want commercial rivets of a certain size then you must order them from the few suppliers left and wait. Why make Rivets? Because it is a BASIC task. In blacksmithing you will need rivets in an almopst infinite variety of sizes and shapes. You will not be able to inventory them all. In decorative work a hand made head will not look like a machine made head. If you need continuity in your work you make them (or use finishing headers. For some jobs we order rivets in bulk. I used to make a riveted shovel and dustpan from 16ga steel. For these I needed 3/16 x 3/8" rivets, lots of them. The minimum order was 25 pounds (based in dollars) at the time. I will have enough short 3/16" rivets for the rest of my life. . . For making tongs it is nice to use comercial rivets. I stock a few 3/8" by 1" for this purpose. However, tongs need 5/16" x 1, 3/8" x 1-1/8, 3/8" by 1-1/4, 13/32 x 1-1-1/2. . . if you make a range of sizes. Many smiths take a long bolt that has enough plain shank and cut them off. . . |
| - guru - Tuesday, 04/11/06 17:56:19 EDT |
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Can't Find Tools: CJ, Like my post on Rivets above, there WAS a time when you could walk into ANY hardware store and buy blacksmithing tools. There ARE a few rural stores that carry a handful of farriers tongs, a hammer and rasps, but that is IT. If you want NEW tools you order them by mail order or on-line. All the major suppliers advertise here and have on-line stores with cart systems. If you have the money they have the tools, from every size and type of tongs to anvils, flypresses and power hammers. If you are looking for used tools they are everywhere. You just have to ask questions and follow the leads. However, used tools are not FREE tools. Although they MAY be less expensive than new in most cases blacksmithing tools usualy do not wear out. Things like forges rust out more often than not. Two hundred year old anvils are good useful tools and just barely becoming antiques to collectors. Where to start: What do you need? You need to knoe what it is called, what it looks like and how to describe it to people that do not know. If you are looking for free tools then ask ALL your relatives. This is a good time to look into your geneaology. That Great Aunt you never knew you had may have had a husband that was a tool collector OR at least had an anvil and forge out in the garage or barn. . Then ask your neighbors. THEY may have a Great Aunt. . . You would be surprised at how many free anvils folks have been given simply because they showed and interest in using them. Have a good reason to tell them them why you want to get into blacksmithing and it better NOT be "I wanna make a swword". The generation that has these tools lived through WWI, WWII and Vietnam and killing and mayhem are not fun and games. If you FIND that free anvil be sure to pay the poor widow AT LEAST $1/pound. It is worth twice that and I don't want to be telling you how to take advantage of poor widows. Go down to the local farmers or hunters hangout before dawn. Yeah, that may be the local truck stop or greasy spoon that you would NEVER otherwise go into. Strike up a conversation with anyone and ask if they know anyone around these parts that has blacksmithing tools. Same as above. If you tell them you wanna make a swoord you may get bounced out on your ear. Be prepared to talk about the "good old days", the depression, John Deere tractors, pump shotguns. If someone has a cache of tools these old boys KNOW where it is. You just gotta become friends and jog their memory. OBTW - They do not know what OBTW means and if you wear ear rings or body jewelery then they are going to think you are a low life hippie and if they DO tell you anything then the directions are probably going to lead you down to a swamp with no way out. . . Ask questions, follow leads, many are dead ends OR require asking more questions. It is WORK. There are easier ways. Go to the nearest blacksmith organization meeting. You can look them up on the web. NO, they are probably NOT going to be in YOUR town. But there is at least one group in every state or province and more in denser populations. You are going to need to travel. However, it is less travel than going to every farm sale, every country antique store and following every wild lead. . . . At most blacksmith gatherings folks bring tools to sell and trade. Sometimes this is a traveling dealer with new tools, sometimes it is guys with side business that traveled farther than YOU or they are others with excessive tools of one kind or another looking to trade or convert to cash. Once in a great while I will haggle with a tailgater. But I have done the time looking for tools and these guys are FINDERS. They know how and where and put in the hours so you and I do not need to. THAT is worth something. Look at past editions of our NEWS. There are photos of thousands of anvils, tongs, forges. . . all found and for sale by tailgaters at blacksmith meets. Every time I go to one of these things I almost always buy something. I usualy spend $200 on deals that are too good to pass by. The last thing I bought was a little 124 pound Mousehole anvil for $75. Shortly after that I won a medium duty universal bench vise in iron-in-the-hat for $15 worth of tickets. Prior to the little anvil I bought a nice beakhorn stake for $95. $185 spent on what would be about $800 worth of tools. AND I also had to travel to the events where these were. But that is part of my job. If I was going in search of tools I would have a couple thousand to spend each trip and shop carefully. Inexpensive, yes, free, no. Good tools are never cheap. |
| - guru - Tuesday, 04/11/06 18:42:45 EDT |
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Zinc Countertop: We have had several questions over the years about zinc countertops. My first question is always WHY a zinc countertop. It is a soft, highly reactive metal that oxidizes both black and white. Yeah, they are all the rage in Europe. . . I checked a couple sites that offered zinc countertops and they only offered clean new surfaces. One problem with "pre patinated" surfaces is that nothing corrodes evenly. Furniture and counter tops do not destress enenly. If you are looking for "old" it will have to be done in place. Zinc is used because it is fairly corosion resistant. However it developes a thin white oxidation when exposed to rain water (very dilute carbonic acid). Bare zinc when exposed to salts and oil (such as from one's hands) turns a grey then black. Often zinc countertops are cleaned and or polished then lacquered. The resulting wear through spots are part of the aging process. Many metals oxidize under varnishes as well. On finishing.com they had no good advise to evenly patinating zinc. One suggestion was a salt paste, the other tomatoes (by a woman looking for a food-safe acid). If you must produce your own antiqued surface, I would start by mechanicaly distreessing the surface. Rough it up with super coarse sand paper, scratch with nails. Then try to remove the scratches with fine sandpaper (180 grit wet or dry followed by 240 grit). Afterwards clean the surface to remove every trace of oil. Apply an acid such as dilute Muriatic acid. Do this outdoors with plenty of ventilation. Applying acids to metals releases very nasty fumes. Reapply if necessary. When there is a good coarse surface then rinse and neutralize with backing soda solution. Polish some more. Treat with salt. Apply a thin coat of vegatable oil. By now (a week at least) it should look pretty disreputable. Clean. Seal with clear lacquer if you want the oxidation to slow as much as possible. Clean then varnish if you want slow continuing oxidation. If I wanted an aged in place look then I would finish on the counter using clear lacquer and glazes black tint and or black rubbed into the distressed surface. Then I would wear through the wear areas using sandpaper to remove the finish then polish the metal in those spots. The result should leave some ragged edges to the finish. Then I would finish over this. . . LOTS of work. But it can be done. The above IS NOT a proven method, just a suggestion. There are other acids that may work better and faster. I would lean toward mechanical surface distressing including the above as well as heavy sand blasting then a paint/glaze finish. Note that paint doesn't not stick well to bright zinc and the usual method is to flatten the surface with an acid (or LOTS of time) prior to painting. |
| - guru - Tuesday, 04/11/06 19:49:16 EDT |
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Ken Scharabok- What size air cylinder did you use for you hammer? I have an 8 inch dia x 30 inch shaft that I can use as an anvil, which would probably do for a fairly large hammer, but I don't want to get too large a compressor, since this is just a hobby. I was aiming for about a 40 lb ram, similar to one of the smaller hammers in the Junk-Yard Hammer section. I can get a 1.6 x 12 inch air cylinder locally, but I don't know if that will work. I already have a couple of 2.5 x 12 inch cylinders, but I sustpect that they might consume too much air...or would that be better assuming that I could run at a lower pressure? I might have gone a bit overboard on the anvil size but I don't want the hammer to break up my garage floor. |
| DonS - Tuesday, 04/11/06 20:23:02 EDT |
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Kong Lo Blacksmiths, Don't over look historical parks. Last year I spent the summer working at Rockledge Ranch at the Garden of the Gods in Colorado Springs. Pay was low but it was the best job of my life. I was given 3000' of steel, a forge, an anvil, a hammer, told to have fun and talk the to public about blacksmithing. The period of our site was between 1865 and 1910. General Palmer, the one time owner of the site, was the developer of CF&I steel, Denver Rio Grand Railroad and built Colorado Springs. My Boss was trained as a blacksmith by Francis Whittaker, and studied in Europe. We built a new brick forge, repaired a great bellows and made hardware for the site. Other smiths volunteered at the site, and there were demos by visiting smiths. A picture of Francis Whittaker making a forgeweld was above the anvil and Frank Turley’s signature was on the wall for inspiration. We taught classes, dressed in funny clothes, cooked meals on the wood stoves, drove draft horses, butchered pigs, raised a garden, hauled manure, chopped wood, played old timey music, and made people smile. They were looking for a smith for this summer. The only reason I’m not there is because of family health problems. I am currently on the volunteer list at 4 other historical sites with in 50 miles of my home. Last week my Grandaughter asked me if I could go with her on a field trip to a historical "With A Blacksmith Shop, Grandpa" park in Golden Colorado, I told her no, I had to work, She was very supprised to find that grandpa was to working in that same blacksmith shop today when they came through. The kids were impressed when I told them that her Great, Great, Great, Grandpa, had a blacksmith shop 110 years ago 30 miles from where we stood. Best S-hook I ever made. |
| habu68 - Tuesday, 04/11/06 21:00:20 EDT |
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Guru, I have a question about arc welding electrodes. Once a box has been opened and the electrodes are exposed to the air and moisture, what is the procedure for drying them back out again before storing them properly in an air tight container or electrode oven? I've been told that you can bake them in an ordinary oven to drive off the moisture. Can you tell me how it's done? Thank you kindly. |
| Wendy - Tuesday, 04/11/06 21:02:09 EDT |
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CJ- Being from Michigan you might look up Tillers down by Kalamazoo. www.wmich.edu/tillers they are a great group and offer a variety of classes in blacksmithing, tool making, timberframing, knifemaking, etc. I've taken several classes there and the instructors are all great. Bob |
| eckfordblacksmith - Tuesday, 04/11/06 21:15:12 EDT |
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Is is true that blacksmiths didn't shoe horseshoes? I am just getting into the blacksmithing biz and just wanted to know for when people ask. I also was wondering if if is considered heresy to use modern tools such as a mig welder or a milling machine in conjunction with blacksmithing and not be considered an outcast by the local abana group. thanks for the info. |
| - thenewguy - Tuesday, 04/11/06 21:47:52 EDT |
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DonS, for this kind of thing I highly recommend the Mark Linn air hammer video (see the AFC web site). It has plumbing as well as calculations that tell you how much air is consumed and HP needed. Your anvil weighs 427 pounds. Using a 40 pound ram you have a 10:1 ratio. This is not going overboard, it is just about right. Lower ratios are acceptable but do not give the best efficiency or vibration resistance. However, hammers up to 100 pounds are built on anvils that size. A heavy floor distribution plate is helpful. I would be concerend about the length of the cylinders. Bottoming them out is a disaster. You need some extra to prevent wrecking them as well as not hitting a hard stop. I do not know what your design stroke is so I cannot say. |
| - guru Ex-officio - Tuesday, 04/11/06 21:56:50 EDT |
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Don S, Try this site for some simple calculators that will make it easy to figure the push/pull of your cylinder at different pressures, etc. I used to have a better one, but I don't know where it went. http://www.pneumaticsonline.com/Calc1.asp |
| vicopper - Tuesday, 04/11/06 22:11:33 EDT |
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habu68, Amen about Rockledge Ranch, Colorado Springs. A mention should probably be made about Andy Morris, the ranch manager. Andy is a walking antiquarian when it comes to knowing about early ranch and farm material-culture. He is quite a good blacksmith and a good horseman, especially with the harnessed draft horses. They had an Indian program where a small tipi and camp were set up and manned by an "early period Indian Family". He wanted to do the camp this summer, and Rockledge can pay per hour, but the budget won't allow housing in town. One year, Andy organized a small Indian Powwow on the grounds, and my wife and I participated. I have demonstrated at Andy's request twice, first at the Littleton Historical Museum in 1997 near Denver, and once at Rockledge in 2004. |
| Frank Turley - Tuesday, 04/11/06 22:23:29 EDT |
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Guru--I bought an old Trenton 100# anvil. Somebody used a cutting torch on the top and left gouges and pock marks in the top. I am thinking about using hard surface rod to repair the damage. Any thoughts from you about how to fix the damage and what mateials to use? The gouges are not more than about 3/16" deep on the worst ones. |
| Gary Waner - Tuesday, 04/11/06 22:27:07 EDT |
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Guru--I bought an old Trenton 100# anvil. Somebody used a cutting torch on the top and left gouges and pock marks in the top. I am thinking about using hard surface rod to repair the damage. Any thoughts from you about how to fix the damage and what mateials to use? The gouges are not more than about 3/16" deep on the worst ones. |
| Gary Waner - Tuesday, 04/11/06 22:27:26 EDT |
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Rivets? I've seen more than one smith who would just use a piece of round stock with no head for a tong. The tong halves are held on the anvil with a cantilever bar under the middle. The hot slug is brought out of the forge and dropped in the hole and smacked with the hammer upsetting both ends! The cantilever helps hold the tong the right distance off the anvil, but ya still gotta be quick. |
| - grant - Tuesday, 04/11/06 22:29:53 EDT |
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Cite: "Colonial Williamsburg Historic Trades Volume 1" copyright 1988 ISSN 0897-7216, pg 19-37: Reconstructing the American Bloomery Process, David Harvey NewGuy: In America, especially in a small town or out on the frontir there may have been only 1 local smith and they did just about everything including shoeing horses. Extant daybooks record this---IIRC "To Forge Upset and Weld" includes an example showing this. In Europe or in cities or industrial areas the craft of farrier and blacksmith could be quite distinct. If you likie to live dangerously try asking an "old school" european smith to shoe a horse---having a hammer thrown at you is a possibility! Also as smithing waned in the US the smith started doing a wider range of tasks to make ends meet and some of then took up shoeing. When asked I generally tell folks that "Horses are bigger than I am and dumber than I am and that's just to scary a situation for me!" If they are really interested I explain how specialized shoeing can be these days and it just wasn't something I was interested in. Thomas |
| Thomas P - Tuesday, 04/11/06 22:43:01 EDT |
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Frank All Nations day(Powwow) is one of the annual highlights of the year. We had over 500 people there that weekend The Indian encampment at the ranch has been documented to be at least 4000 years old by carbon dating. The Ute tirbe has no migration legend, they say, "We were here forever". Andy Morris, Is a good blacksmith, horseman,dog trainer, manager, and a fine human, in the best tradition of the west. Littleton Museum has a blacksmith shop to lust after. Adams county fairgrounds has a nice shop Golden's Astor house historical park a small but nice demo shop Boulder County has Two shops. One at the Agicultural Heritage center near Longmont and one at The Walker Ranch near Lyons. Pueblo Colorado has one at the old Pueblo site. Old Bent's Fort in La Junta. Greely Colorado also has a forge at the historical farm. Not all of these have paying positions, butthen, not all jobs pay in money... This is a list of just the front range of Colorado. It might be the begining of a list of historical blacksmith sites for other states. |
| habu68 - Tuesday, 04/11/06 22:58:10 EDT |
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Arc Welding Electrodes: Wendy, It depends on the electrodes and the use. What are known as "low hydrogen" rods cannot be used as a certified rod once damp. In fact it is requred to keep them in a "rod heater" until use. Open cans are routinly scrapped. Any other rods used for non-certified work can be dried simply by baking at something above the boiling point for a few moments. I would use 300#&176;F. For immediate use I have dried rods with a torch. Light colored rods turn a golden brown when cooked this way. Rods that are so soaked they would sputter and not weld at all will work fine this way. Air tight containers must be REALLY tight. The substances in rods that absorb moisture are hydroscopic and chemicaly pull water from the air. Usualy containers that are not sealed do not cut it. For general shop storage folks often use an old refrigerator with a light bulb "heater" to keep it warm. The door seal is the important thing and prevents air change and condensation. Again, this does not apply to certified wedling rods. But if they are for general work and decorative ironwork it is a fine way to go. |
| - guru - Tuesday, 04/11/06 23:00:46 EDT |
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Wendy, Low-hydrogen rods like E7018 are very hydrophilic and quickly pick up water, rendering them no longer "low hydrogen." For non-spec use, they can be dried out in an oven at 525°F for an hour or more, then stored in a heated, dried rod oven. For work that must meet spec, the rods must be considered contaminated and not used, I believe. Ordinary rods, like E6010, E6011 and others, can be dried out at 250°F and stored in a rod box that is heated moderately, say 140° or so. They'll be just fine for a long time that way. The American Welding Society (AWS) publishes specifications for welding rod storage. The major manufacturers of welding machines and consumables, like Miller, Lincoln, Hobart, Esab, etc. all have handbooks that give guidelines for electrode storage. Check your local welding supply or search online. Also, "Modern Welding" by Althouse, Turnquist, et al. has solid information on electorde storage and handling. |
| vicopper - Tuesday, 04/11/06 23:00:54 EDT |
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thenewguy: Some did/do some didn't/don't. In the old days a blacksmith in a remote area would do anything He could, just because there wasn't anybody else to do it. In that period a gunsmith might shoe horses if there wasn't anybody else around doing it. There are people promoting "True Path" smithing, then there are guys like Ries that combine all the tricks He has up his sleve, CNC machine tools included to produce interesting objects, and to make His buisiness profitable enough to live on. Personally I think You can use what ever will do an effective job, just be honest about what You have made and don't try to represent it as something it is not. |
| Dave Boyer - Tuesday, 04/11/06 23:15:24 EDT |
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Gouge Repair: Gary, the trick here is to fill the pit so that it stays welded. I have an anvil that someone tried to repair with nickle rod and the welds have come loose and poped out. Although this was the wrong rod it should have stayed welded. The trick is to first clean out any torch mark so there is no slag or scale. This usally means grinding out with a small die grinder. You only want it open enough to clean and get a rod in. Then you preheat the anvil to about 350°F. Weld with a high manganese rod designed for tool steel. If you work the rod right you can mix some of the surface metal into the puddle and reduce color differences as well as alloy differences. It is an art. Peen as the weld cools. After the entire anvil cools peen and grind. If you are lucky you will not have created a bigger hole than you had or cracks in the surrounding tool steel face. Clean and weld again if needed. I always recomend NOT welding and judicious use of a grinder or working around the bad spot rather than welding and possibly wrecking a useful tool. If the cuts are only in the edges then you may be able to dress the edges and have a clean smooth anvil without welding and the possible repercussions. |
| - guru - Tuesday, 04/11/06 23:16:52 EDT |
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Wendy: in adition to vicopper's post, ordinary [NOT Low Hydrogen] rods can be stored in normal dry indor conditions for many years and work fine, but if kept in a shed or barn or a damp basment won't work well unless dried. I am about finished with a 50# box of 6011's that I purchased in '78, they havn't been kept in a special container, just in a DRY basment. We used to keep all the rods on top of the oil furnace, they were always warm, but the new furnace doesn't lend itself to rod storage. If You really must use 7018 there are some moisture resistant grades that are less sensitive to moisture absorption. |
| Dave Boyer - Tuesday, 04/11/06 23:28:14 EDT |
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vicopper, Thanks for the calculator reference. The Cv calculation for the valve is real interesting. It turns out that a 1.6 inch cylinder at 96 psi in, and a 6 psi valve drop will do the same work as a 2 inch cylinder at 70 psi in, with the same valve. (Cv=2.3). Instantaneous air consuption with the larger cylinder is only about 10% more all other things being equal. A 2 inch cylinder is probably a more versatile design. Thanks again. |
| DonS - Wednesday, 04/12/06 00:01:31 EDT |
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Guru, I will have to check out the video. I was planning to allow about 1/2 inch at the bottom of the stroke for die wear, and a couple of inches at the top, with a spring in case of excess travel. A 10 inch cylinder would give about a 7-1/2 inch usable stroke, and a 12 inch cylinder would give about 9-1/2 inch usable stroke. The longer cylinder might allow for a bit more accelleration of the ram I think. Thanks for the info. |
| DonS - Wednesday, 04/12/06 00:16:25 EDT |
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thenewguy: Technically horseshoers are farriers. As noted, their craft and blacksmithing have been intermingled throughout the years. I suspect at one time, say in the 1800s New England area, a large blacksmithing shop might have a senior apprentice to do almost all of the shoeing (including making the shoes), with the blacksmith getting involved in only complicated cases. Out West the stable owner may have done the shoeing while the town blacksmith did the other work. In isolated or very rural areas owners may have shoed their own horses. On ranches one of the hands may have done the shoeing. I don't remember when keg shoes (factory made shoes which originally came in kegs) became common, but suspect it was in the later quarter of the 1800s. Farriers then somewhat split into hot shoers and cold shoers with some doing both. Some of the best blacksmiths around today started out a farriers, the hot shoeing lead to an interest in metal shaping, leading to another career as a blacksmith. When people ask if I shoe horses I say yes I do. Then I use my hands in the go away gesture saying shoooo, shooo, shooo. Lots of arts and crafts items can be made from new or used horseshoes. Only publication I have seen on it though is 101 Things You Can Build from Horseshoes by W.F. Dohrmann. It is available through several of the forum advertisers. |
| Ken Scharabok - Wednesday, 04/12/06 06:54:09 EDT |
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Tyler: On your anvil you noted the date of 1888. Only a couple of anvil manufacturers dated their anvils, predominately William Foster (England) in the early to mid-1800s and Fisher/Norris in the U.S. What anvil brand is it? Date is too late for WF and a Fisher (having a cast iron body) shouldn't have saddled out like that. More of an indication of a wrought iron body. |
| Ken Scharabok - Wednesday, 04/12/06 06:58:48 EDT |
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Hi, I am looking for someone that does contract work for the lost art of sawmill blade hammering/tensioning. I live in the North Central part of Indiana and the friend I am doing this inquiry for owns a small sawmill business. I've been searching the internet for leads, but only come up the tools to do it with. If anyone could give me some leads my friend and I would be eternally grateful. ~Sue |
| Sue M. - Wednesday, 04/12/06 07:32:35 EDT |
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Hi Mr. Guru I'm a final year metallurgical engineering student at the University of Pretoria in South Africa. A recent welding project aim in the direction of welding a 2mm austenitic stainless steel plate to a 3mm aluminium plate. Would you perhaps have a solution to the Challenge??? I tried TIG & MIG with no success... Now i'm aiming to Resistance spot welding. Can YOU pleeeaaaassseee help. Bart (I like the site) |
| Bart Peyper - Wednesday, 04/12/06 07:45:49 EDT |
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RIVETS- www.bigflatsrivet.com- good selection and how too page. Spaenaur in Canada. |
| crosspean - Wednesday, 04/12/06 08:01:58 EDT |
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Sue M. Look at (www.menomineesaw.com/) they do circular saw hammering/tensioning and about everything else for sawmills. I have had good service from them. Although I have not used them for circular saw tensioning. Since I use bandsaw. Saw tensioning is only a lost art where trees are lost. grin. |
| - Tony - Wednesday, 04/12/06 08:17:28 EDT |
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Keg Shoes: I remember reading that during the War Between the States, one of the Union's "secret weapons," much coveted by Southern spies, was a machine that could crank out something like 1,000 horseshoes a day (or maybe an hour). When you realize how vital the horse and mule transportation was, not just for cavalry, but for artillery and the quartermasters’ supply wagons, a good source of shoes was as vital as rubber tires in 20th century warfare. (Actually, the rubber tires were mostly utilized by Allied forces; a surprising amount of Axis transportation still relied on horses and mules.) Most of the Sears-Roebuck light duty anvils and forges sold in the late 18th and early 20th centuries were meant for farmers to do their own farrier work. The most basic kit is tongs, pullers, rasps and such; sort of like a basic tire-patch kit. Cool and clear on the banks of the Potomac. Nice weather, but we need more rain for the crops to go in soon. Visit your National Parks: www.nps.gov Go viking: www.longshipco.org |
| Bruce Blackistone (Atli) - Wednesday, 04/12/06 08:24:55 EDT |
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Rivets: I just cut 10d or other appropriate sized nails short (to appropriate length) and head the other end. Since most of the nails are salvage, no problem. The rest of the nail can be re-headed for rough carpentry, or used for other purposes, or tossed back into the recycle bin. If it’s a BIG project, then I might consider buying pre-made rivets outright (or if I see a bargain at a tailgate session). But for occasional use, I just lop-off nails. (We are, after all, "barnbarians!") |
| Bruce Blackistone (Atli) - Wednesday, 04/12/06 08:32:04 EDT |
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Welding Challange: Bart, If we gave you the answer it would be cheating. I will give you hint. Common welding techniques will not work (SMAW, MIG, TIG). Think space age or stone age. . . . or maybe there is no solution. . . |
| - guru - Wednesday, 04/12/06 09:03:54 EDT |
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Rivets. Besides Grant's cantilever idea, we do something similar on smaller gage hinges with an annealed MS pin. A sheet metal spacer, say 16 gage, with an elongated cutout, is placed on the anvil, the cutout width slightly larger than the rivet shank. The unheaded pin, room temperature, is placed through the hinge barrel with 1/16" (in this instance) protruding beyond each end. The spacer allows the 1/16" projection to touch the anvil while keeping the barrel end on the spacer. I work both ends of the pin until I get an equal amount of upset started. I then finish without the spacer. The heads become flattened and almost get burnished beyond recognition, as is sometimes seen on early American hinges. I have a nice, old H-L door hinge, originally from New Orleans, with the flattened heads. In class, I have students make rivets the hard way, a la Ernst Schwarzkopf. A student will neck down a rivet shank from oversized round stock at the near radiused edge of the anvil, say a 3/16"D shank from 5/16"D. The larger D is notched a little ways above the shoulder, and the hot shank inserted in the header and quickly wrung off. The head is hammered. I use a whiteout pen to draw a concentric circle around the header hole to help keep the head centered. There is also the hinged, vise clamp which has a scant half round channel in each of it's small jaws. You can notch, insert, tighten the vise, wring off, and head. No need for necking down a shank. Farriery. Nowadays, most farriers are not blacksmiths, and most blacksmiths are not farriers. In the large city farrier shops of old, you had a fireman and a floorman. The fireman was the "master" and made the shoes. The floorman trimmed and nailed on. This was the English/American method. On the Continent of Europe, the two man team worked differently. The "master" trimmed, made the shoes and nailed on. His helper held up the feet for him. When keg shoes came on the scene, many had overly long heels. It was assumed that the farrier had a fire and was going to crop the heels to fit a particular foot. |
| Frank Turley - Wednesday, 04/12/06 10:05:43 EDT |
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Guru and friends, Thank you for the electrode drying info. I live and work on the coast where it rains A LOT... this moisture thang is really an issue. I did have another question regarding electrodes: I have an old fire pot with a hunk busted off of it. Braising won't stand up to the heat, I don't think, so is there a rod commomly used for cast iron? Thanks again. |
| Wendy - Wednesday, 04/12/06 10:15:17 EDT |
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Welding Cast Iron: Wendy, Cast Iron repairs are always problematic. The problem is that much of what people THINK is cast iron today is in fact ductile iron which can be welded with a variety of rods. This includes some firepots. On small parts many have luck gas welding cast iron. In fact this is nearly a re-casting process as the entire part if brought up nearly to melting and the welding done using iron rod. Having the entire part up to naer melting lets it cool and shrink evenly. On large parts the problem is that the shrinkage often creates cracks on the opposite side of the part. The recommended practice is to preheat the place opposite the weld where it is going to crack. Perform the weld and then hopefully both sides shrink equally and do not crack. On simple examples given in welding texts such as pullies and flywheels this works but on most real world items such as pump cases it is a different story. Most real world cases are much more complicated. To make arc weld repairs of cast iron you use nickle rod. It is marked Ni-rod. Rods cost a dollar or more each so are usualy not bought by the box. |
| - guru - Wednesday, 04/12/06 11:06:46 EDT |
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Ken I dont know who made it but i can send you a picture of it if you would like. The patent number is in very bad shape so I can't find out who made it and the symbol is well worn. Just out of curiosity the body of my anvil doesn;t look like iron but were the heel is broken off at it has the look of iron fibers What has caused this. I dont in tend on welding the heel back on and have refused alot of offers for it. I also know that its a 2 1/2 steel plate welded to the top. I have been trying for a long time to figure out who made the anvil but I have had no luck. |
| - Tyler - Wednesday, 04/12/06 11:55:53 EDT |
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Speaking of rivets. I use them fairly often in armour making and was thinking. Is there away around them? OO yea were can I buy a hydrulic steel cutting press at for under $1,000. There are some in a town close by but there all over $4,500. |
| - Tyler - Wednesday, 04/12/06 12:07:42 EDT |
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HMMM could that anvil be an 1838 william foster? Some of the old 3's can look an awfull lot like 8's... Welding Challenge; they weld Al to steel on a regular basis over at EMRTC here on the New Mexico Tech campus, I can hear them doing it from my office some days. Thomas |
| Thomas P - Wednesday, 04/12/06 12:24:45 EDT |
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Tyler, Hydraulics cost money, period. No way around it. Press frames are heavy and also cost. Rivets, as Grant pointed out and in the iForge demo I linked to can be made from any plain round bar stock, support it equally protruding from a joint and smack it hard with a hammer. If the lengths, positioning and ends are right AND you give a good hard STRAIGHT blow you will get two equal heads. For small work I do this cold. The round stock needs to be annealed when cold heading or it is likely to expand too much in the work. On you anvil if the "fibers" look like wood that has been pulled apart then it is a wrought iron bodied anvil. If they look crystaline then it coud be cast iron or steel. |