WELCOME to the anvilfire Guru's Den - V. 3.3

THIS is a forum for questions and answers about blacksmithing and general metalworking. Ask the Guru any reasonable question and he or one of his helpers will answer your question, find someone that can, OR research the question for you. This is an archive of posts from March 23 - 30, 2007 on the Guru's Den

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Does anyone know if there are plans for a CSI or Anvilfire booth at the Galgary Stampeed this year? I think there was an ABANA set up there last year, but I just got to Calgary, so I don't know for sure.    - Hound - Monday, 04/23/07 04:46:26 EDT Cameron: A 20-lb propane tank would be extremely suitable for a one-burner. I ran my two-burner on one and have a slight problem with them frosting up if I run the forge too long at full bore. A 30-lb would lessen that problem, but I have gone to a 100 lb tank for shop use and will keep the two 20-pounders as portables. If you have to buy a tank, go with a 30-lb. Were I to try to use a 20-lb propane tank I'd go with probably double insulation (2") and two burners each with a 2" x 1" bell coupler and 8-10" of 1" nipple for each. Gas hole sizing would be a bit of experimenting starting with my standard .0330 and then go one one drill size to the point it just seems right. If you use a propane tank make sure you take off the valve and then purge with water (and I'd use soapy water myself). There was a discussion a couple of days ago about cutting into 55-gallon drums. Same concepts would apparently apply. I get my 30-lb Freon tanks free. Two H&A/C companies drop them off as the local scrapyard will no longer accept them. I suspect if you stopped at a local H&A/C shop they would readily give you an empty one. In addition to leaving the valve fully open I drill a couple of vent holes around the valve area and let the tank sit for a couple of week before cutting into it. Otherwise I often get a somewhat intense 'muratic acid' smell from the cutting.    Ken Scharabok (Poor Boy) - Monday, 04/23/07 07:27:08 EDT Cameron, If you meant to ask whether or not a 20# propane cyllinder would be a good size to use to make a one-burner forge, the answer is probably "No." Too big for just one burner. For one burner, use the smaller freon cylinder. The bigger freon can makes a two burner forge. A 20# propane cylinder is a decent size for a two burner forge if the burners are efficient and you have a large enough propane supply to keep them running at high output. The one way you can make use of a larger forge body with less burners is to use up some that excess cubic volume with additional insulation. Use three inches of insulation, instead of two. Raise the floor height with more insulation under it. Stuff a few chunks of insulating firebrick inside the forge to take up volume. The rule of thumb is that one 3/4" atmospheric burner will heat 350 cubic inches of volume. Do the math. A two burner forge, if you're trying to keep it really hot, will draw more propane than a picnic cylinder can supply adequately. It will start to cool too much and quit delivering enough gas in an hour or so. You really need a 100# cylinder to supply a jtwo burner forge that you're working hard.    vicopper - Monday, 04/23/07 09:06:42 EDT Getting the air out of my keg was a lot easier than I expected. I created a jig (a board with a screw halfway in it) and depressed the ball valve. No raunchy beer spray or smell at all! Must be older than I thought. Thanks all for your sage advice. Anvil question: I have a small 50lb London style anvil I purchased about 10 years ago at an antique store for $50 (to be my first anvil). I thought it was an ASO until I decided to do a couple of tests against my larger 150lb anvil just to see which was better. I got 60% rebound on the ball bearing test and almost no marring at all from the ball pien hammer test which shocked me. The only marking on this apparently well made anvil is a raised "USA" real big on the side (horn pointing left). Any thoughts as to it's make?    Rhordae - Monday, 04/23/07 10:42:26 EDT After several years of demonstrating at small state parks and schools, the same old "speels" are getting a little old (ie nails and their historical importance, the difference between farrier and blacksmith etc). Can you recommend a good source of reading material for smiths putting on demos? The projects come naturally (usually someone in the crowd wants something and I just explain how to make it, but it would be really nice to have some additional stories or trivia bits. Any suggestions?    - NATHAN - Monday, 04/23/07 11:08:59 EDT Rhordae, your USA anvil was cast in Alabama; I think they are still made. They work ok for small projects and were used in the green coal classes at Madison in 2005. At least they have a decent shaped horn. I was thinking they were 100#, but they may be made in both sizes.    Ron Childers - Monday, 04/23/07 11:31:57 EDT Guy in local area bought one. Horn broke off first time he tried to use it. They are one-piece cast. I suspect these are done at the end of production runs when they have extra material left over. As such, anvil quality may vary day-to-day. My understanding is they are basically produced for the flea market trade. I don't know of anyone who sells them retail otherwise.    Ken Scharabok (Poor Boy) - Monday, 04/23/07 11:55:17 EDT I have an old Calvary Forge with fold up legs, a hand-cranked Buffalo Blower, and a rusted fire box. I would like some information on how to rebuild the firebox, maybe some old catalog photos, etc. Thank you. Burns    Burns Cleland - Monday, 04/23/07 12:04:20 EDT Nathan, The English book, "The Village Blacksmith" by Ronald Webber is full of blacksmith stories and lore. The Brits hang the horseshoe heels down, so that "all the luck pours forth upon the forge." The blacksmith says to the machinist, "I can put a half inch hole through a half inch bar, but you can't." Then proceed to slit/drift a half inch hole through the bar. Hold up some yellow hot iron and tell the audience, "Give me a quarter, and I'll lick it." When you get the quarter, lick the quarter and pocket it. I like to relate King Alfred's story of his having a castle built and inviting all the craftspeople to a big banquet...but he forgot the blacksmith. All heck breaks loose when the smith boards up his shop. See Webber's book.    Frank Turley - Monday, 04/23/07 12:18:31 EDT thanks!!!!!! demo's are a lot of fun but it's challenging to keep new material!! as always this site is wonderful!! where else can you tap years of combined experience and on the job training!    - NATHAN - Monday, 04/23/07 13:19:35 EDT just ordered "The Village Blacksmith" by Ronald Webber - (first online purchase - quite frightning how easy this is!!) - there are MANY books with the same title - watch out if anyone else is ordering.    - NATHAN - Monday, 04/23/07 13:37:53 EDT Nathan, I heard this one recently. A machinist walked into a blacksmith shop and was bragging about the tolerances he worked with. He said, "Why in my machine shop, I sometimes have to work with a three thousandths of an inch tolerance. How do you handle something like that?" The smith replied, "That would never do here. Our work is perfect!"    Frank Turley - Monday, 04/23/07 14:15:12 EDT Here is another for you - there were only 2 blacksmiths that ever went to hell - one for beating on cold steel, the other for not charging enough.    - NATHAN - Monday, 04/23/07 14:30:29 EDT The Village Blacksmith by Aldren Watson has been renamed The Blacksmith, Ironworker and Farrier. Actually I think it is: The Blacksmith: Ironworker & Farrier as a title and subtitle, but it is usually listed as a run on title.    Ken Scharabok (Poor Boy) - Monday, 04/23/07 14:43:50 EDT is it a good reference for demo's? short stories full of historical facts are sort of hard to find.    - NATHAN - Monday, 04/23/07 14:47:42 EDT Ken, So you would ship the concentrate in a 16 oz jar without the water? Or with the water? Shipping would be less without the water, of course. A plastic container should work just fine since we will not be putting a really hot tool into the lube.    quenchcrack - Monday, 04/23/07 15:12:35 EDT Gurus, I plan on purchasing a new anvil this fall (which I am still torn between the Nimba and the Rathole Forge Anvil) due to a shabby repair job on my existing anvil. It is an eagle branded Fisher I bought at a flea market and at the time it had half the plate missing. I paid $150 for it (150lb anvil) and thought I could repair it to at least a working condition by brazing a new plate on the top, so I ground what was left of the existing plate off, built a moderately sized fire pit using coal as my fuel, got all the supplies I needed for brazing (using brass as the adherant) and after heating for about 15 hours I thought I had done it. The entire anvil was at a fairly bright orange heat and the heel was solid (as far as I could tell; it wasn't easy to get close to at that heat). Well, after it cooled two days later I got it out and the whole front half of the plate was still loose. Out of impatience and anger I welded the plate on the rest of the way and set to working with it. It has held up fairly well the past two years but has developed a distinct hollow thud. Using the ball bearing test I get a whole 10% or less on the front half and about 50% on the heel. My thinking is the brass compressed and hollowed out the area between the plate and the anvil body. So I figure it is time for a new anvil; I really don't want to strain my arm any more either. Anywho...I was wondering if there was any way to restore this anvil to any sense of workability now that I have had my fun with it or is it now and forever an ASO? I know Ken has repaired several by building up a weld and grinding smooth and repeating. Is that a feasible fix? I really hate to give up on a potentially good anvil but if needs be there is a really nice place in the front yard I could put it (after grinding off that hideous plate/weld job).    Rhordae - Monday, 04/23/07 16:32:49 EDT The jars I have purchased are the same type used by pharmacies for creams and such. Screw down lid. By buying two cases I got free S&H on them. Yes, I will ship just the concentrate. All buyer has to do is to add water. However, I will recommend shaking well before each use, as well as applying lube to a hot punch.    Ken Scharabok (Poor Boy) - Monday, 04/23/07 16:56:16 EDT Rhordae: I'm dumb enough to try something like that. What I would do, after that section of plate has been cut off, is to apply stainless steel rod on top of the cast iron. Essentially using the torch at almost cutting heat to preheat an area and then arc weld directly in the flame. I suspect once there was a good base of stainless it could be built up with mild steel welding rod, such as 7018. Likely wouldn't be any harder than the back half of the anvil, but still likely useable.    Ken Scharabok (Poor Boy) - Monday, 04/23/07 17:01:38 EDT P.S.: My technique on 7018 is to only lay down a bead about 4-5 inches long and then quickly hammer it flat. Flux is then brushed off. This seems to help work harden the metal laid down. I've repaired about a dozen anvils this way and see some of the owners at Quad-States. All report them holding up very well.    Ken Scharabok (Poor Boy) - Monday, 04/23/07 17:04:34 EDT Hello, I haven't been to anvilfire for a long time, but I'm working on another one of my nutty projects. This time, it's a fuel vaporizer that is supposed to get over 100mpg. What I need to know, is how thick should the steel of the gas tank be to withstand the pressure of five to seven gallons of gas being vaporized? These old plans call for half inch steel, but with the way it's made it should be able to hold up if it were thinner because of valves that let air into the tank when the vacuum pressure gets too high, and I plan on adding a relief valve for safety. Any advice on the subject will be appreciated. Many thanks! ---Rob    - Rob - Monday, 04/23/07 17:58:12 EDT Rob; if you will have air mixed with vaporized gasoline I would suggest going with 2" thick steel; all welds pressure tested, etc. Before you get too deep into this project you may want to check if an auto insurance company will insure such a modified vehicle and if so whether the cost will be greater than the savings. Thomas    Thomas P - Monday, 04/23/07 18:27:37 EDT Rob, a fuel-air bomb on wheels? You should have a ready market in Iraq.    quenchcrack - Monday, 04/23/07 19:09:56 EDT Rob, I second the thought expressed by Quench and Thomasp. DON"T! In the military, i have witnessed fuel air explosions. A good one is hard to tell from a NUKE! A small one is still unbelievable. I have also seen the aftermath of vaporized hydraulic oil that hot a hot forgeing. Really, really ugly.    Ptree - Monday, 04/23/07 19:29:38 EDT Ken Scharabok. Iwould ship the punch lube in plastic, as that is what the maker ships it in. I do not remamber corrosion of any of the metal parts in the industrial spray systems, but they were also primarly plastic as well. Shaking after adding the water is a good idea. I have never seen this stuff to settle. I have several containers in my shop that have been in use since 2005, and never stirred or shaken. I do add water back as I often forget and leave the lid off and the water evaporates. Shaking before use can't hurt, just probably not required. I find that a plastic coffee can works well. Wide enough to allow getting a handled tool in, but not get lube on the striking surface. It is lube, and on the striking surface a off angle blow will slide off.    Ptree - Monday, 04/23/07 19:36:04 EDT Do you need to seal refractory brick or board, or is it only the wool type refractory that must be sealed to keep from getting cancer stuff in your lungs?> can the wool be sealed with refractory cement, or does it need to be with itc 100?    Cameron - Monday, 04/23/07 19:38:28 EDT Another thought on the fuel vaporizer, With a relief valve, are you aware that reliefs on fired pressure vessles are required to be sized to handle that max rate of gas generated if the heat stays on and no vapor is drawn? and that the vapor screaming out of the relief at about suprsonic velocity will be flammable and looking for an ignition source so that it can be a rocket engine? Liquid fule rocket engines have fuel cooled nozzles to serve two purposes, one to preserve the nozzle in the extreeme heat, and to preheat the fuel to allow vaporazation.    Ptree - Monday, 04/23/07 19:39:37 EDT I seem to have very bad spelling tonight:(    Ptree - Monday, 04/23/07 19:41:10 EDT Actually, my idea is to make the tank similar to, say, a propane tank. Not all of the gas will be vaporized at the same time, only enough to keep up with the demand. I figure if I do that, then the pressure inside the tank when the vehicle is not running shouldn't be so high as to explode the tank. The vapor hose would be fitted with an emergency valve to keep any engine back-fire from entering the tank. I don't plan on exceeding ANY pressure limits and I plan on doing as many tests as possible to figure out the speed I should heat the tank.    - Rob - Monday, 04/23/07 19:55:19 EDT Stair Rail Education: Brian, See NOMMA.ORG They have books and video tapes on the subject. As to working in someone's house. . THAT is a problem for you you to solve. In complete homes only bolted connections are safe. Any welding or grinding is a huge libility. So you design smooth clean bolted or pinned and wedged connections. On a project a friend installed the house had finished oak stairs and polishsed black marble floors in the entry. . . It was a nightmare job to install. He used a lot of joints that allowed cold fit up. One thing that helps is to use covers over the posts and pickets at the floor. These can cover a gap is the floor is low. What my friend did was drill the ends of the posts and pickets to accept 1/2" pins about 3" long. Big 1/2" headless lag bolts were installed and the rail set over them. Decorative covers hid places that did not fit up perfectly. . . lots of tricks you can find. Measuring EVERYTHING as triangles results in a layout that compensates for out of square, out of level, non-circular. .. Start with two fixed reference points, measure to other imovable points and work off those as well. You would not believe how out of square a house can be. Powder coating is good for production work but friends of mine that HAD swore by it are now reaping the negative rewards of flaking, rust, inability to repair the finish. . . There are other much better finishes that can be touched up in place.    - guru - Monday, 04/23/07 20:32:01 EDT Rob, I hope you don't think that this is a new idea. I worked on something similar about 15 years ago with a friend of mine. we used exhuast gases to heat the fuel but a special pump is needed along with check valves so fuel may be pumped from the tank and only heated in a special chamber far away from the tank. By the way IT DOESN'T WORK and it's extremely dangerous. It turns out that problems turn up in the injectors and distributor..good luck but DUCK!    - dale - Monday, 04/23/07 21:53:29 EDT guru, do you have any input on creating arrow heads? would it be best to forge, or maybe weld together cut sheet metal, or what would you recommend? i asked the question up there but you guys were gone for the weekend, i was told.    Tony - Monday, 04/23/07 21:53:38 EDT Sounds like someone is trying to build a Coleman stove on a grander scale !!!    - Mike - Monday, 04/23/07 22:34:27 EDT I am a blacksmith who competes in mining events such as singlejack drilling. Singlejack drilling is the old process of using a hand-held high carbon drill steel along with a modified 4lb. sledge hammer to drill holes in hardrock for setting dynamite. The "dago" hammer is the modified sledge that most of the pro's use. It is a curved sledge referred to as a "dago" hammer because it is said that Italian immigrant smiths made them for the miners back in the late 1800's. I have 2 questions: 1st. Most of the old pros say you want to use 1085 hex stock to turn out the rock chisels. Problem is I cannot find any sources for this steel. I have also heard that the chisels need to obtain 65-70 Rockwell to take the incredible abuse when drilling and keep an edge. I know of other readily available hex tool steels. Are there any that compare metallurgically to a 1085 in hardness along with ease of hardening and tempering? Also it does not have to be hex, they can be turned from round section. 2nd. What would be a readily available tool steel for making the hammer to impact the chisels? It would would have to be quite tough, to handle the impact against a cold high carbon chisel while not marring the face of the hammer. The section would optimally be 1.5" square. Any help, history or advice of where to get these steels would be greatly appreciated! You can see a "dago" hammer on the following link: http://miningartifacts.homestead.com/toolsandhardware.html    Emmit Hoyl - Monday, 04/23/07 22:40:33 EDT Mr. Guru, I'm a beginner who is interested in bladesmithing. I'm doing as much research as i can, but i'm still confused on one mayjor thing. Are dirty coal/charcoal forges better than propane for making blades? Some of the lititure that i've read says that carbon is lost while working the steel...my concern is that a propane forge burns cleaner, and there isn't any carbon present to replinish the steel. I know most of the concerns over controling the carbon level in blade steel is because they had to smelt it first...but,I plan on working with modern known steel. Thanks for the oppertunity to ask an expert, Bryan    bfleming - Monday, 04/23/07 23:47:46 EDT Forge "Cleanliness": BFleming, That dirty coal or coke made from it and in a different era, charcoal, were used to make the steel in the first place. There are two problems in forge atmospheres. One is excess oxygen causing oxidation. This not only burns the surface of the steel but it can absorb carbon from the steel. This is known as decarburization. The reduced carbon surface must be ground off critical tools such as blades and may extend as much as 1/32" into the material. This problem is most severe in propane forges. The second second problem is sulfur in coal. Almost all coal has some sulfur. However, the sulfur is more of a steel making problem is much less of a problem in forging. Using low sulfur coal and taking the advantage of being able to control the atmosphere of a coal forge better means it CAN result in cleaner forgings. Charcoal has no sulfur but is a tad more difficult to control the fire's atmosphere than coal. Altogether it is the "cleanest" for forging. There are however, other differences between the two forges. Solid fuel forges require constant attention to keep the fire just right. They also have a learning curve AND each grade or batch of coal acts a little different than the other. Gas forges are basically a light it and use it type device. DIY gas forges may take some tweaking to make them operate right but once there then they will run OK.    - guru - Tuesday, 04/24/07 07:38:54 EDT Drill Steels: Emmit, Many steels are becoming difficult to get and are being replaced by others. For tools the letter/number series alloy tool steels have replaced many of the plain carbon steels. For toughness most modern smiths use S7. However, it is not as wear resistant other steels. Crucible Steel's CPM-V3 is not as tough but it is many times more wear resistant. In the case of most steels the care in heat treatment is more critical than the selection of the particular steel. Hammers are made of a variety of steels. Many are made of SAE 1050, a few from SAE 1075 and some from 4140. Again, for heavy use the heat treatment is critical. One big difference between factory type heat treatment and blacksmith heat treatment is the use of localized hardening and tempering. Using a combination of accurate temperature controls and blacksmiths localized hardening and tempering can result in a much superior tool than either method alone. However, for specific applications you many need to experiment.    - guru - Tuesday, 04/24/07 08:18:22 EDT Does anybody own a Rathole Forge Anvil? Or has anybody worked with one?    Rhordae - Tuesday, 04/24/07 08:28:37 EDT Thanks Ken for your insight. How much do you generally spend repairing an anvil using that method (time and money wise)?    Rhordae - Tuesday, 04/24/07 08:33:26 EDT Forging Arrow heads: While I have used various arrow tips in my youth I have never made any. First point to be clear about is that we are discussing metal tipped wooden arrows, not fence points. Many small items made hundreds of years ago used very delicate forge welding. I have seen hinges made of material as thin as 1/32" forge welded at the pin. I also have a piece of a Japanese screen that is a series of stems and leaves with the stems no larger than 1/8" and often smaller that have as many as five leaves and multiple stems all forge welded from each shank. This small welding was once common in the smithing world. So it would be logical that an arrow head would be made from two preshaped pieces welded together to create the socket. It would also be possible to take one piece, form the two half sockets, fold it then weld. This would be easier to handle than two loose pieces. This small work was done in a very small forge using a small bellows, the smith close to work. Often a very small anvil was kept on or immediately next to forge so that the small pieces did not need to be moved more than a few inches. The tool arrangement is critical for the small scale of the work.    - guru - Tuesday, 04/24/07 08:36:30 EDT Plans for the new forge building on �my side of the road� are staggering along. My wif has STRONGLY suggested that I might want to get an electric range and oven for heat bluing my smaller ironwork, so that I won�t have to use her new oven in her new house. As a side benefit, she suggests, I would be able to cook pots of chili for my friends, and the women could use it for dying experiments (coloring cloth, not dropping dead ;-) at Camp Fenby sessions. Since I would have to have the electrician run electrical service for the cook stove, and wire and outlet for the same, why not put in an outlet for a small arc welder? Could some of the smaller arc welders be compatible for amps and volts and outlet as the stove, or are they two separate types of beasts? This would, of course, determine where I put the outlet(s). If the stove and an arc welder could share a common outlet, or even a common line, I would place the stove near the �sand box� and the front double doors. Otherwise, I would just place it back on the pavers near the back door and away from the work areas. Inquisitioning minds want to know. Warm and cloudy on the banks of the Potomac. Visit your national Parks: www.nps.gov Go viking: www.longshipco.org    Bruce Blackistone (Atli) - Tuesday, 04/24/07 08:41:52 EDT Sealing Refractories: Cameron, any refractory that breaks down and creates fine dust is often a problem. Kaowool blanket, board and molded products all break down at forge temperatures and should be covered with ITC-100 or other coating. Soft insulating firebricks wear but generally do not make dust. Note that these are different than the fiber blocks which are not fired like a brick in their manufacture.    - guru - Tuesday, 04/24/07 08:48:48 EDT Forging Arrowheads: There�s a nice site on this at: http://64.176.180.203/arrowhead.htm . His second method resembles the method used in the spearhead articles here at the Anvilfire Armoury and also on the iForge page. The key thing with arrowheads, for consistent shooting, is to match them as closely as possible (within each group of a half to two dozen) in weight and form. If you forge six different styles and sizes/weights, you�re going to get six different points of impact. Uniformity of stock and technique will go a long way, and will come, mostly, with practice. On the other claw, if they�re for display, go wild! I really liked the medieval naval broadheads, made for slashing rigging and sails (needs big fletching, too.) The Vikings also used forked heads for waterfowl, and there are a number of good illustrations of historic examples available. Also, the range of your imagination and skill can provide you endless hours of amusement. Good luck.    Bruce Blackistone (Atli) - Tuesday, 04/24/07 08:59:07 EDT Atli, I would run a 60amp feed, 6 guage -3 wire with ground to a small box and split it. That should take care of both quite easily. I have fed two subpanels in my house this way (garage and second floor) for the purpose of not doing a bunch of home runs. Chris    Chris J - Tuesday, 04/24/07 09:00:47 EDT Arc Welders: Atli, Arc welders in the Viking shop??? Small but HD buzz boxes are often rated up to 90A on the service side. However, the small cheap ones are often rated half of that. BUT, the thing to know is that either WILL WORK on the 40-50A stove outlet just fine as long as you are not using large rods (over 1/8") or running the welder at maximum capacity. It is fairly common to make an adaptor cord to run a welder on a stove outlet (the plugs are often different). But I have also seen folks just replace their welder cord with a stove cord. . . As the limiting factor is the circuit breaker there is no safety problem. Ideally if you are going to run both a stove and a welder off the same outlet the 50A stove outlet should be wired for the full 50A and have a 50A breaker on it. If you let the electrician know what you want I THINK this is within the rules of the building code. Just be sure to locate the outlet next to, rather than behind the stove as is normal. Normally each of these "special" circuits are run separately unlike common outlets that may have multiples on one line. Again, you will need to ask your electrician. Note also that most building permits ask how many outlets and how many "special" outlets. Each has a fee (tax) for their inspection. Again, talk to you electrician.    - guru - Tuesday, 04/24/07 09:10:18 EDT Calgary Stampede: Hound, Sorry no, we won't be there. There is a SLIM possibility we may go to CanIron.    - guru - Tuesday, 04/24/07 09:16:41 EDT Punches Sticking: There are a variety of materials and methods to prevent this. The first thing to observe is that if you punch too deep with the wrong punch material OR too close to breaking through the punch end swells and no amount of punch lube will help. Ancients used a little bees wax. It is not the best, melts and flames off at relatively low temperatures. Coal dust works, yes it flames a little. Good bituminous coal works best just as in forging. Grease (axel/bearing) works just fine but it also burns off. Never-Seize. I have used this and seen it used with no (or very little) smoke and fumes. However, it is not the best. Puncheize by Big BLU. This is a mixture of graphite and molybdenum dioxide emulsified in water. Both are good high temperature lubricants and a mixture that has been used in industry. The new alkaline salt water based lubes such as Ptree recommends are necessary in industry and large operations. It would be interesting to test against Puncheize. But whatever you do, use SOMETHING when punching holes. It does make a big difference. Note that some lubes work on small scale but not large. Those that burn off do not work well on large punches.    - guru - Tuesday, 04/24/07 10:08:12 EDT Rhordae, I'm using a Rathole Forge anvil. It's a good one. Emmit Hoyl, The alpha guru has mentioned some currently available alloy steels. The old timers used octagonal steel, and 1085 would address the carbon content: 85/100 of 1% carbon. Nowadays, drill rod is sold as W1 and O1. The W1 is plain carbon, water hardening tool steel and has about 1% carbon. It comes annealed, and in a round cross-section, scale free. You may obtain it from McMaster-Carr or MSC. The O1 is oil hardening and is an alloy steel. If you're going back in time, The "Dago hammer" is simply a hand forged version of manufactured stone cutters' hand drilling hammers. They were made of square stock with chamfered corners going into the face, the faces being slightly rounding as a result. Looking at the non-hafted side of the head, there is a few degrees of drop from eye to either head. Each head is dressed at a slight angle to the haft length. H. Holford (see below) calls this tool a "mash hammer", and he suggests punching a round eye rather than an oval or elongated eye. The best book I've found for the fashioning of early tools is "The 20th Century Toolsmith and Steelworker" by H. Holford, 1908, Frederick J. Drake, Chicago. For the hand drills, Holford suggests having a well shaped bit and hardening not more than 1/2" back from the cutting edge. If using W1 for, say, granite, you can temper to a straw, or if the stone is extremely hard, no temper is drawn. Limestone, sandstone, and marble may require different shaped bits and different temperatures for tempering. See if you can obtain the book from campusi.com.    Frank Turley - Tuesday, 04/24/07 10:34:06 EDT Atli: I run my old Lincoln tombstone from the stove outlet in my house---when my wife is not at home to complain about the cord going across the kitchen and out the window over the sink. Never have thrown the breaker with it, (yet). You might check the habitat for humanity resale store for an old *large* stove that would suit dyeing, if you find one with 2 ovens, (large, small) itr would help for bluing small items like knife hardware as well as large items like helmets or captains... Arrowheads: I have a medieval/renaissance bodkin boint from Germany. It was done of one piece of wrought iron and had the socket forge welded where the edges lapped. David Starley of the Royal Armouries in Leeds presented a paper on medieval arrowheads at the 37th Annual International Conference of Medieval Studies: they were not steel; but rather plain WI. Don't know if it's been published yet. Bryan; propane contains carbon---that's how you get the CO issue when burning it. My blown propane forge can go from extremely oxidizing to extremely reducing; very handy in knifemaking. As a beginner I will tell you that you will ruin fewer blades working with propane than with coal/coke/charcoal; however building a solid fuel forge is a lot quicker and simpler than a propane forge. Thomas    Thomas P - Tuesday, 04/24/07 12:57:23 EDT Rhordae: It, of course, varies by anvil. When you purchase welding rod by the pound it is the rod and coating. How much actual metal you get out of a pound of rod? I use stainless fairly extensively. I have been fortunate to find it on eBay (or through an eBay dealer) selling surplus and don't pay much more for it than mild steel rod. You go purchasing it in a welding supply outlet than it is expensive. Even discounting time there is the electric for the welder, the grinding disks and wear and tear. Another words, I don't know.    Ken Scharabok (Poor Boy) - Tuesday, 04/24/07 13:07:22 EDT hey everyone i was wanting to smith this summer and i bought these books. the artist blacksmith the new edge of the anvil and the art of blacksmithing. i was thinking i could build a forge in the ground or build one in welding shop and if i built in the ground would a fan like a house fan work to blow it. i need to get an anvil and i read about euroanvils being a good value anvil but i was wondering where i could get a good cheap anvil around 100+ pounds. my defenition of cheap would be 300-400 dollars thanks    - newbiesmith - Tuesday, 04/24/07 15:37:51 EDT i forgot i was reading where everyone was talking about different kinds of tools steels and wanted to know what the letters meant    - newbiesmith - Tuesday, 04/24/07 15:38:57 EDT Newbie: When I lived in Columbus OH I averaged an excellant anvil a year for less than a dollar a pound by talking with everyone. Newbie, since I know nothing about where you live I can't tell you any specific place to start looking. Ebay is *bad* in my experience and the shipping costs can get quite high on anvils not located near you. Thomas    Thomas P - Tuesday, 04/24/07 15:42:17 EDT i live in kentucky close to lexington which is southeast of louisville    - newbiesmith - Tuesday, 04/24/07 16:07:22 EDT More on finding anvils: Newbie, as Thomas noted, asking everyone you know, AND all your relatives is a good start. Tell them you are interested in learning blacksmithing and need tools. You never know when some distant Aunt has her departed husband's anvil in the shed out back or in the basement shop. Then start on neighbors, school teachers, the hardware store owner. . . Relatives are the best bet for a free anvil. From widows and children you should pay at least flea market prices (no less than $1/lb). Ads in the local "free trader" or even paid ads in local papers can have you phone ringing off the hook. Something like: Blacksmith Tools Wanted: Anvils, bellows, blowers, chisels, cones, hardies and forges. Call BR-549. This has been known to work surprisingly well in cities AND in the country. Be prepared to sell as much as you buy. You start paying cash then wheel and deal a little. . . There is nothing wrong with NEW anvils but as Thomas noted avoid ebay. Check our advertisers. They all sell quality tools, their prices are fair. When you find something for a lot less then there is a reason for it. ALSO, you can end up paying more for some of the junkers on ebay than a good first class anvil. Every NEW anvil listed on ebay is misrepresented in some way or often in EVERY WAY. Going to blacksmith gatherings is the best place to find used anvils at reasonable prices. At our small CSI gathering this weekend there were good anvils from $100 to $800. Two were new Peddinghaus anvils. Others were fairly common old anvils at good prices. If I hadn't just spent over $1,000 on travel expenses I would have brought back both the Peddinghaus anvils.    - guru - Tuesday, 04/24/07 16:09:26 EDT See. . . we were about 300 miles from you. The dealer that had the couple old anvils for sale is from Nashville I think which is even closer. Metal Designations: You must be careful about these. Some are duplicated depending on the class of steels and the organization who's terms you are using. However, in US tool steels the AISI letter group indicates the general type of steel. When talking about any designation the organization or standard SHOULD be given as in AISI H13, SAE 1020, ASTM A36. AISI tool steels: A = Air quench D = Cold Work steels H = Hot work O = Oil Quench P = Low carbon Mold Steels L = Special Purpose M or T = High Speed Steels (very high carbon, molybdenum, or tungsten) S = Shock Resistant W = Water Quench    - guru - Tuesday, 04/24/07 16:25:32 EDT I know this is probably going to be an ABSURD question, but... how difficult is it to make an anvil? I read a little HOWTO thing on a website that said it involved little more than finding a hunk of anvil-sized tool or scrap steel, cutting it with an acet torch and grinding to shape, then using solid welds on all the working faces, then grinding and finishing, and you're done. Is this a crock, or would this be something a novice metalworker and their very welding and working-with-hands savvy father could undertake? Could this be a viable recourse for a low cost first anvil?    Tony - Tuesday, 04/24/07 17:04:42 EDT Tony, It depends on the quality of anvil you want. First, doing it RIGHT to get the results of a first class anvil is not cheap or easy. Cost can be close to a commercial anvil. Second, you CAN do better than the junkers sold on ebay as "Professional" anvils by unscrupulous dealers. Third it is NOT a job for a complete novice. The tools required, HD cutting torch, arc welder, HD angle grinder all require some skill to use. Fourth, The facing of an anvil with hard facing rod is expensive and not the best way to go. Large pieces of hardenable steel plate or bar ARE available at a cost lower than applying hard facing rod and spending many hours grinding it flat (electricity and grinding wheels have a cost as well as labor). But, the job CAN be done in a small shop. However, I have tried to convince shops with the proper tools and skills to go into the anvil business and they say there is not enough profit in it. . . So it is not a CHEAP way to make an anvil, even with the right tools. Otherwise someone would be doing it. The skills are not so simple. Almost anyone can torch a piece of bar in two with a cutting torch but try torching long straight lines or graceful curves. THEN try doing it on 4" to 6" thick plate. You can EASILY create such a mess that there are not enough grinding wheels in existence to straighten out. Heavy welding, even with a buzz box can suck up some electricity that has significant coat. A friend built a JYH air hammer using some 2" plate which he dutifully welded with 1" beads. . . his electric bill for the month jumped $200. He wanted ME to explain to his wife how that little bit of welding could not have possibly cost that much. . . I'm afraid the truth could not save him. I have several HD B&D (now DeWalt) Wildcat grinders. The HD high speed 7" ones. They weigh about 14 pounds. I love the weight for grinding because I know how to use the weight. But many flinch at this size grinder and cannot control one. These are what it takes to make an anvil from flame cut steel. Try building an anvil with one of those little 4.5" baby grinders and you will wear out several good ones, MANY wheels, and kill a lot of never endings. But they are really handy for tight places and light finishing. . . So, yes and No and not without skills or the right tools.    - guru - Tuesday, 04/24/07 17:43:05 EDT Thank you for the very informative reply Guru and Mr. Turly, I am curious about the W-1, O-1, and S7 drill rod. Will they get hard enough? I have been doing a bit of research online, and found that W1 gets to 56c, O1 gets from 62-64c, and S7 gets to 55-57c, on the rockwell hardness scale. None of the sources say if this is measured pre or post hardening. I was told by one of the pros that you want the chisel hard enough that a new file will nearly skate across the surface somewhere around 65-70c after hardening and tempering. Will any of these work? Also do you know where I can find any of the SAE 1050 in 1.5" square stock? Once again thankyou! Emmit    Emmit Hoyl - Tuesday, 04/24/07 18:24:44 EDT Making Anvils, comments, details: There is a long step by step article on the net showing how to make an anvil with a torch and welder. The end result is pretty ugly. If you don't think so then you have looked at very few anvils or don't have any sense of the art. DIY ugly anvils have little or no market value. However, a pretty anvil, even if it has some DIY faults it can be a work of art and have some value. So, either make one that is a work of art or forget trying to emulate a modern double horned anvil with curved body and feet. A two dimensional silhouette of an anvil with feet welded on is an ugly piece of junk. But if the overall style is suitable then it can be art. The drawing at right is taken from a Hofi pattern anvil. It could easily be fabricated from 3 to 4" thick plate and the results look like a fabricated anvil should. To make a proper hardy hole is a difficult task. Welding up around a square tube in a hole is a lousy weak method. Below are three methods of making a hardy hole. The two methods above top require machining with a mill or a shaper. However, the top left COULD be made by sawing or torching, then cleaning up. The method at top right is designed to make a full penetration build up weld but with only a narrow weld at the face. This is for making a tool or alloy steel anvil and making a small specialty weld on the face and the rest with common welding rod. This one requires milling or shaping a slot. The last method is a simple piece of square tube or doubled angle welded to the side of a block anvil. Then a collar is welded at the top to provide strength and a work surface. This is for the typical DIY anvil. To not waste your time making junk you can use a simple slab of steel for an anvil. If you need a hardy hole on the same use the above method. If you need a horn then make a stake anvil. A stake anvil is easier to make and was the common auxiliary tool before anvils had a built in horn. You can spend a LOT of time making a work of art. OR you can save a lot of effort and learn to use what is necessary, not what you THINK is necessary. There is nothing wrong with making a work of art. But if you are going to do so, then do it RIGHT.    - guru - Tuesday, 04/24/07 18:35:38 EDT Thanks for the input guru. I was hoping it might serve as a less expensive alternative to buying my first anvil. I suppose not, eh? As another question, is there any material to work with or process to be finished with to make a shiny product, so to speak? For instance, if I wanted to make a spoon with a nice, shiny, 'stainless steel' finish, would I be working in anything other than tool steel, or perhaps working in tool steel and plating it? Or can forged steel be buffed and polished to a nice luster? Sorry I'm being such a pest.    Tony - Tuesday, 04/24/07 19:07:29 EDT Steel can be polished to a mirror finish. Forge, de-scale, sand, buff. However most steels will rust with time and exposure and will need some sort of finish applied to slow that down. If you want it handforged with a nice, shiny, 'stainless steel' finish why not forge it from stainless steel to start with? I've forged spoons from stainless steel, wrought iron and Titanium and find that Ti and Stainless have not lost their finish even in the dishwasher while the wrought iron one is getting quite a patina on it. EMMIT Rc 70 sounds a bit much to me a new file will skate off steel at a lower Rc value and high Rc can mean high brittleness. Thomas    Thomas P - Tuesday, 04/24/07 19:21:47 EDT I guess I just erroneously thought stainless steel was unforgeable. If I were to forge with a corrosive steel, is there any novice technique toward adding corrosion resistance to it? May it be anodized? Is there a reason why blacksmith's tongs are often portrayed like the link below, and tongs on this website are decidedly more linear? http://www.folkcuba.com/stores/bot_images_b/ts33_ForgeTongs144.jpg    Tony - Tuesday, 04/24/07 19:40:51 EDT Guru, I have seen a plan for sale on Ebay for the construction of a forge from a stainless sink and a vacuum cleaner motor. I remember seeing something you blokes wrote about a vacuum cleaner being too powerful for the average forge, but couldn't you just put an adjustable vent into the tuyere to limit the flow? Also, would a stainless sink be too thin for a firepot?    Craig - Tuesday, 04/24/07 20:15:35 EDT Tony, one anodizes aluminum, and sometimes Ti, but never to my knowledge steel. If you want shiny and corrosion free, there is a series of very special alloys that have Cr and Ni, usually in the 18%Cr and 8%Ni range that forge well but take a little extra effort to move and if pickled, sanded and polished with tools and materials that have not been used first on steel will keep the shiny surface nearly forever. The easy alloy to find is ASTM 304. This is the proper call out for a special steel that will not easily corrode. It is the most common STAINLESS STEEL, is used to make kitchen sinks ETC. Use the right material for the job.    ptree - Tuesday, 04/24/07 20:19:42 EDT Tony, Those are probably NOT forging tongs. They look more like tongs for handlng a casting crucible or hot pickup tongs. They appear too light for serious control when forging, and are sized to fit pretty darn big stock for their relatively light construction. Blacksmith's tongs must be fitted very closely to the stock they are intended to hold in order to provide the necessary control for decent forging work, and must be strong enough to resist the forces working against them. Typically, though not always, this means the bits are relatively short in comparison to the reins, to provide the leverage necessary.    vicopper - Tuesday, 04/24/07 21:26:06 EDT Emmit: As Thomas points out 70 RC is extremely hard, and I doubt anybody is using a steel that is hardened to that degree. HOWEVER they might be using a drill that has been nitrided after heat treating and sharpening, and that could provide a 70+ RC surface. O1 is an easily worked, readily available tool steel that is versatile enough to make most simple tools, and a better material than anybody had 100 years ago.    - Dave Boyer - Tuesday, 04/24/07 21:33:37 EDT Emmit Hoyt, If your Rockwell readings are accurate, they would indicate steel that had been either hardened or hardened and tempered. Rockwell C doesn't tell the whole story. It is the measurement of how far a conical pointed instrument can penetrate the steel under a predetermined load. Other factors might be flexibility and shock absorbancy. Fully hardened W1 will cause a new file to skate across the surface; no metal removal. When tempered, the file will barely remove a little metal, and with reluctance.    Frank Turley - Tuesday, 04/24/07 21:36:55 EDT Thank you for the insight gentlemen! I supose my source didn't really know what he was talking about. I will give the O-1 a try and let you know how it performs. Any sources of SAE 1055 square stock that you know of?    Emmit Hoyl - Tuesday, 04/24/07 21:58:06 EDT I picked up a 2x1/2" steel strap a while back. When I tried to forge it, it crumbled, split & was generally horrible. I had assumed it was some kind of high carbon steel & I wasn't working in the correct temp. range. However, I recently got a bench grinder & was spark testing different steels I have around the place. The strap had long, straight sparks with no branches or sparkles at all. I compared to mild, a file, a jack-hammer bit & some broken tools so I had a fair range of comparisons. One other issue is that I had just put a new fan on the forge & suspect it had too much air & so was oxidising. The peice was at a good orange when I was working it. My question is, is this normal behaviour for very low carbon or wrought? Could an overly oxidising atmosphere cause this crumbling? At one point I was working one end in the vice & the other end simply broke off a few inches below the vice. Nothing was quenched....    andrew - Tuesday, 04/24/07 22:09:18 EDT Emmit, McMaster-Carr (mcmaster.com) carries both 1050 and 1045. They list 1045 as higher strength than 1050. Read the details. See also matweb.com for more material specs. McMaster-Carr sells a wide variety of steels in small amounts. Otherwise you would be ordering truckloads of some of these alloys. We also have some tool steels available from our On-Line Metals store found in the anvilfire store. AND see Temper Color Chart with hardnesses. I compiled the hardnesses from the ASM Heat Treaters Guide. Much of this is extrapolated from graphs thus is not perfect but it is within +/- 1 point hardness I think. None of the plain carbon steels achieve the hardness you state. In general the hardness is proportional to the amount of carbon. Thus you can pretty well determine the steels not listed between those that are. Note that nitriding and case hardening to increase hardness will do little good to a rock point that wears away rapidly. An abrasion resistant alloy might be better than a super hard one.    - guru - Tuesday, 04/24/07 22:19:57 EDT Crumbling: Andrew, It sounds like a piece of rusted wrought iron. Wrought needs to be worked very hot. At low temperatures it tends to split. However, if heavily rusted the iron will be in separated strands held together by rust, not the original silicon and iron slag. Once in this condition it cannot be forged. However, with great care and a lot of flux it has been known to be repaired. . . but it is probably not worth the effort. If it actually just crumbled it may have also been cast iron. But you spark test says wrought iron.    - guru - Tuesday, 04/24/07 22:24:33 EDT Vacuum Cleaner Blowers: Craig, There are two problems with these, one is the high flow, the other is the noise. The noise is due to the very high RPM that also heats the air. Stalling a blower is actually a good way to control it UNLESS it runs at so high a speed it overheats. These tend to overheat and fail. And yes, the SS sink is too thin for a fire pot. It would need to be lined with something else.    - guru - Tuesday, 04/24/07 22:28:54 EDT Tongs: Why would you believe an image from a Cuban Folk art site over images from a blacksmithing site????    - guru - Tuesday, 04/24/07 22:30:10 EDT Andrew, I cannot say what type of steel it may have been, however having forged wrought iron before this does not sound like its characteristics in the fire. Wrought iron is very ductile and malleable and can be worked at the upper limit of the forging range. Because it is such low carbon it melts at a higher temperature than higher carbon steels. My geuss is you have a poorly maunfactured alloy steel. Better luck next time.    Emmit Hoyl - Tuesday, 04/24/07 22:35:09 EDT Whoops. . Tongs: There are many types. There are Salad tongs, foundry tongs, surgical tongs. . . Among blacksmiths tongs there are dozens of basic types and hundreds of styles. Then there are Farriers pull offs and wire cutters that are both often labeled blacksmith's tongs. AND the earliest tongs were wood tweezer type. Metal tweezer type tongs are used for small crucible tongs and smaller ones for jewelery work. Many many types. . .    - guru - Tuesday, 04/24/07 22:41:56 EDT it's not so much "believing" that site. I was just curious as to why pop culture (video games, movies, cuban folk art sites :P) always seems to portray tongs as those really circular types. i just used that website to give a picture reference of what i meant. just another example of the media having no idea what they're talking about i suppose?    Tony - Tuesday, 04/24/07 23:49:02 EDT Technical details of a field are often little known to those in other fields and technical details of anything mechanical is less and less understood by the general populace. At the most basic many people do not know the difference between a nut and a screw or bolt much less a hex bolt and a socket head. Once many years ago I saw an international engineering magazine with an illustration about fasteners. There were only a couple BIG fasteners in the illustration. The bolt had 5 sides and the nut 8 (both should have been 6). It is understandable that an illustrator might not know the difference but for it to get past the EDITOR???? In our field there is hundreds of years of development in anvil design yet few people, even in the industry, can draw or sculpt a good anvil shape. Those outside the industry, particularly pattern makers often dictate new anvil shapes. The result is often disastrous. It is like asking a being from another planet to sculpt or draw the face of a human being. Even though there is great variety of faces, colors and expressions a human knows its kind well enough that even a cartoon can have the necessary characteristics to LOOK human. It is in the technical details. As an artist I can draw many things. But I am primarily a constructivist and build the drawing from what I know or formulae I have practiced. I can render almost anything I see and many things from my imagination as well. But I have no skill at cartoons or fashion design (nudes OK, but a disaster with clothes). It is a matter of study and practice. But while I have not studied fashion I have studied musical instruments and can draw them from both an artistic and technical point of view. However, I am no good with animals either. But I have a wide range of experience and have spent my life studying what THINGS look like (and how they are put together). Other people study other things and most do not study the SHAPE of things. They know things well enough to recognize them. I can recognize a Panda and tell if from a black bear and both from a grizzly but I cannot draw any of them with skill. Drawing animals is not my field.    - guru - Wednesday, 04/25/07 08:36:53 EDT off-topic: TGN, I sent you an email you may be interested in. Heads up!    Alan-L - Wednesday, 04/25/07 08:41:48 EDT Re Guru's 2nd paragraph above. I lived in Lansing, Michigan, for my college years, and a friend from there was recently wearing a T-shirt advertising the Lansing Lug Nuts Softball team. This probably relates to the fact that Motor Wheel Corporation was in Lansing at one time. The T-shirt front had a big lag screw pictured. I wonder how many folks know what a Detroit Piston is.    Frank Turley - Wednesday, 04/25/07 10:45:53 EDT Many high alloy steels will crumble---the cottage cheese effect---when forged at too high a temp. Wrought iron usually frays when forged too cool which an orange heat can be for WI. Was this strap "old"? Any idea what it used to be? Old Wagon Wheel Tyres are often WI and they were recycled way back when as well as today---I have a lot of forged items made from wagon tyre that I have picked up to forge into yet different things. Stainless is a bit more difficult to forge; but not nearly as much trouble as some of the high alloy steels. Get some and try it out! I first forged a piece over 20 years ago so about twice as long as I have been forging Ti... Thomas    Thomas P - Wednesday, 04/25/07 10:49:02 EDT Learning Opportunities: One way for a young person to learn about hardware is to have to sort out a batch of it. Besides fractions, nylock vs. castellated they also learn thread pitches, self threading, sheet metal vs. lag and wood screws. Then there is flat head, pan head, socket head. Almost every shop has a bunch of hardware that needs sorting and put into labeled bins. Most of us cannot afford enough time to these things in our own shop but it is a great job for a kid from 10 to 20 years old. AND a great learning experience. Lug nuts, not only are they a fine thread hex nut, most have a chamfer to provide a centered fit. Some are even left handed. . . What causes the common locked and won't come off lug nut? Freewheeling air wrenches operating at too high a pressure, thus speed. When they bottom out all the inertia of the wrench pinches the chamfered end of the nut into the stud. After that it will not come off or will strip or break the stud in the process. The air wrench may be adjusted to not create too much torque but that does not prevent the damage from stopping too fast a rotor. I carefully explained this to the service manager at our dealership when they charged me for half a dozen new studs when I went in for brake work. I also pointed out that THEY were the ones that put the new tires on and were the only shop that had touched the car since new. . . He grumbled and I asked if the owner was in. No charge for the studs and nuts. It pays to do business with old family owned businesses.    - guru - Wednesday, 04/25/07 13:04:45 EDT Crumbling Steel: I wonder if this might have been a piece of resufurized or leaded steel? You don't see them that often but I would expect them to forge like rotten wood due to the sulfur or lead at the grain boundaries. Sulfur and lead were added to improve machinability and forging it was never intended.    quenchcrack - Wednesday, 04/25/07 13:14:26 EDT I just attended the traditional joinery class at the John C Campbell folk school and had an opportunity to try out the upgraded Big Blues with the new valve setup. They hit much harder than mine using the same ram weight and air cylinder. They upgrade should be around $500.00. Just a heads up for anyone with the old setup.    Mike H - Wednesday, 04/25/07 13:48:07 EDT I think Quenchcrack may be on to something. I had some interesting pattern rebar from an old WW-II barracks building. It gave a whole new meaning to "red short"! Wouldn't forge worth horse droppings. Probably the end result of one of the scrap drives and "get 'er done" wartime pressure. I'd be happy to provide a sample if anybody want to do an analysis. Warm, cloudy, and rain is coming to the banks of the Potomac. They started the fireplace at the new house today, and they are incorporating the fittings for my fireplace crane. :-) Visit your National Parks; I�m working on the pier on the right hand side of the photo: http://www.nps.gov/cacl Go viking: www.longshipco.org    Bruce Blackistone (Atli) - Wednesday, 04/25/07 14:21:37 EDT Frank (Rathole Forge Anvil) How often do you use the extension table or the upsetting block? Do they make a big difference in functionality as far as taking the general London design and adding those features? And what about the hardy hole being by the horn instead of the heel? Do you find that more convenient or just awkward? The oversized hardy hole would make for some stouter hardy tools and I love the look of this anvil. Bending and scrolling would certainly be easier with the added surfaces. I am looking for a tie breaker between the Rathole anvil (250lb) and the Nimba(260lb) and would like whatever insight you can offer. I have spoken with a couple people who absolutely love their Nimbas and am having a hard time deciding between the two.    Rhordae - Wednesday, 04/25/07 15:49:08 EDT "Making a Hammer" Greetings, I am a new poster and also new to the fun of blacksmithing. Have some questions regarding the making of hammers. Basically I would like to make a hammer myself, a good useful long lasting hammer, not just a throw away. Also, I would like to make the hammer as it was made by blacksmiths hundreds of years ago. So my questions are: 1) What kind of steel should I use? Tool steel stock may not be available in my area... 2) My resources are limited, can I use steel from say old truck springs, or fireweld, like a bunch 1" square stock together ? 3) I have access to a hammer, anvil, forge and power hammer, do I need anything else (like the rolling machine deals that I read about)? 4) How did they do it long ago before electricity? 5) If I want a 3 or 5 pound hammer how much steel do I need to start with. From what I read the process is basically , get a chunk of steel, punch the handle hole (hammer eye?), bevel the edges to desires, harden, temper, add handle. is that right? Also, I don't fully understand the process of hardening or tempering, as apparently it depends alot on the type of material involved. I really, just don't know the right steps in what order to take, and my access to the above tools are limited, so I would prefer to use the time effectively. While I firmly believe the power hammer is a great time saver, I know they didn't have them long ago, unless you count the bunch of guys with sledges or otherwise primitive power hammers (pully's, mules, whatnot), so making one with just a good old fashing hammer,anvil and elbow grease would suit me just fine :) I'm saving up to get some blacksmithing books, but in the mean time I have to make due, while chilling here in central europe. So any advice would be greatly welcome and appreciated. But please, try not to use words/terms (or atleast try to explain) like annealing, upsetting, etc, because I do not really understand. Thank you all, and look forward to your comments. -bruno    Bruno - Wednesday, 04/25/07 16:07:16 EDT "Making a Hammer" Greetings, I am a new poster and also new to the fun of blacksmithing. Have some questions regarding the making of hammers. Basically I would like to make a hammer myself, a good useful long lasting hammer, not just a throw away. Also, I would like to make the hammer as it was made by blacksmiths hundreds of years ago. So my questions are: 1) What kind of steel should I use? Tool steel stock may not be available in my area... 2) My resources are limited, can I use steel from say old truck springs, or fireweld, like a bunch 1" square stock together ? 3) I have access to a hammer, anvil, forge and power hammer, do I need anything else (like the rolling machine deals that I read about)? 4) How did they do it long ago before electricity? 5) If I want a 3 or 5 pound hammer how much steel do I need to start with. From what I read the process is basically , get a chunk of steel, punch the handle hole (hammer eye?), bevel the edges to desires, harden, temper, add handle. is that right? Also, I don't fully understand the process of hardening or tempering, as apparently it depends alot on the type of material involved. I really, just don't know the right steps in what order to take, and my access to the above tools are limited, so I would prefer to use the time effectively. While I firmly believe the power hammer is a great time saver, I know they didn't have them long ago, unless you count the bunch of guys with sledges or otherwise primitive power hammers (pully's, mules, whatnot), so making one with just a good old fashing hammer,anvil and elbow grease would suit me just fine :) I'm saving up to get some blacksmithing books, but in the mean time I have to make due, while chilling here in central europe. So any advice would be greatly welcome and appreciated. But please, try not to use words/terms (or atleast try to explain) like annealing, upsetting, etc, because I do not really understand. Thank you all, and look forward to your comments. -bruno    Bruno - Wednesday, 04/25/07 16:12:20 EDT Rhordae, Ya mean, I gotta be a dirty tie breaker? The rathole suits me. I haven't used it long enough to need the widened face extension. The upsetting block is handy for certain lengths of stock. Some people hammer the stock into the corner rather than hitting vertically. There is a tiny drop where the base of the horn starts, not too far from the hardy hole. When I put in a large tool like a 2" swage, for example, it lacks a bit of support there. I'm thinking of doing a small arc welded build up in that area. Other than that, I'm tickled with it. I was using the same weight Trenton for years, and the hardy hole is the same size, 1 1/8", so no problem for me transitioning bottom tools.    Frank Turley - Wednesday, 04/25/07 16:27:57 EDT Hi, I got a basic but well working propane gas forge. I would like (insurance reasons)to add something which allows ignition and makes sure gas stops if the flame ever goes out. I know the more expensive gas forges have that. Can I add this to my (basic) gas forge in line and if so what is it properly called? I think I did hear it once refered to as a gas stop, but can't find anything useful under that. Also if you would know a company I could look up that would help a lot. Thanks a lot for any help.    Katharine - Wednesday, 04/25/07 16:29:15 EDT IIRC, the vacuum cleaners I've taken apart had universal motors. This means it would probably work ok on a dimmer switch. That would cut down the airflow, and at the same time reduce the noise. I still don't think a vacuum cleaner should be a first choice for a blower, but if you *had* to use one, a dimmer switch might be worth trying.    Mike BR - Wednesday, 04/25/07 16:47:06 EDT Hammer Material: Bruno, Many hammers have been made of truck axles. The steel is the right carbon content and they are fairly available. Check with a truck garage, as trucks occasionally break axles. Otherwise, SAE 1045, SAE 1050, SAE 4140 are suitable hammer steels and available from various places in short lengths. IF you are going to forge weld a hammer then the body is made of mild steel and the faces higher carbon such as spring steel. You CAN laminate a hammer but the lamination grain is hard and soft and the hammer wears to show it. So steeling is best. On a cross pien both the face and pien would be hard material. Very little steel is lost when making a hammer. When a blacksmith punches a hole only about 10% of the hole is lost the rest of the material spreading. So if you want a 4 pound hammer then use 4.02 pounds of steel. . . or just don't worry about it. You may need to make an eye drift before making the hammer. See our heat treating FAQ and Junk Yard Steels FAQ. Before electricity they had steam, before steam they had water power and before that they had big guys with sledge hammers. Anywhere from 1 to 15 strikers would work on a piece at one time. Note that the average smiths hammer is about 3 pounds. Larger hammers will hurt you and you will not have good control. Start light and work up.    - guru - Wednesday, 04/25/07 16:51:50 EDT Rhordae, Just to add to your confusion: I love my Nimba, especially the tapered heel and the large mass directly under the work. I kind of wish it had a side shelf, and I may very well add one. Since the work done on a side shelf is generally smaller, welding one on the Nimba would be no big issue at all. I like the fact that the Nimba has a 1" hardy hole, which is the most commonly available size for bottom tools these days. That 1-1/8" hardy hole in the Rat Hole anvil is great for Mr. Turley, who already has the tooling for it, but you might find that size a mite more difficult to obtain. The Rat Hole is certainly a sexy looking anvil, but I still think the Nimba is probably a better forging tool due to the concentrated mass. The disclaimer here is that I have never worked on a Rat Hole anvil, so anything I say regarding them is pure guesswork. Frank has one and knows what he likes about it. In the end, you have to decide for yourself.    vicopper - Wednesday, 04/25/07 17:12:38 EDT Forge Controls: Katherine, Most forges do not have fully redundant controls. The better ones have a full time ignition and occasionally a solenoid valve. If the power fails and the blower or ignition then fail the normally closed solenoid gas valve automatically closes. But this is not flame out protection. For flame outs you need a "fire-eye". This device uses a photo electric eye to tell if the fire is burning and if it goes out then it shuts off the forge. The fire eye is a separate control and it will not come with the necessary solenoid valve and bypass circuitry to operate the forge. See www.fireye.com Full time ignition consists of a spark plug in a corner of the forge or near the outlet of the burner. This is fired by an AC ignition coil. All the parts, the fire eye, ignitor, solenoid, relays and such will cost about $1500. OR you can use a fire eye alone with a gas solenoid and manual controls for around $1000. THEN, there is a simple temperature shut-off type device like a hot water heater or stove uses with a pilot flame. NC-TOOL provides these as an option on their forges. However, temperature type controls do not shut off the gas immediately. There is a delay. All this does not include engineering. AND on that point your insurance company will not approve a DIY re-engineered forges no matter how safe the controls are. Unless the controls are part of a complete UL package they will generally not even talk to you about it.    - guru - Wednesday, 04/25/07 17:15:11 EDT Katherine: The same sort of safety device as is used on gas stoves will work on a forge. On a stove, it's called a "100% safety shut-off valve." On a big furnaces, I think they're called flame safeties or 100% shut-offs. Therer are a couple of different ways of handling the issue. One is the type found on gas stoves, which uses a pressure/temperature operated valve, and the other is an optical flame sensor with solenoid valve. Both work, but the solenoid valve requires electricity. In the event of power failure, most of them default to "Off", so they're still safe. For more information, check places like Ward Burners, (www.wardburner.com) or other folks who supply potters, glassblowers and heat treaters.    vicopper - Wednesday, 04/25/07 17:19:53 EDT Bruce, as others have said, 60 amps is enough for a buzz box most of the time. However, I'd give serious consideration to putting in a 100 amp branch circuit and a panel in the shop. The last I looked mid-sized 100 amp boxes were pretty cheap, and I think you'll find it cheaper to run one heavy circuit to the house (or power entry, wherever that might be) and a couple other circuits for lighting &c. Then I'd put in a gas or propane stove. . . (But then I do hate electric cooktops with a passion! "If God had meant for man to cook with electricity, he wouldn't have created fire.")    John Lowther - Wednesday, 04/25/07 17:37:18 EDT Try it again: That should be: ". . .I think you'll find it cheaper to run one heavy circuit to the house (or power entry, wherever that might be) than a 60 amp and a couple other circuits for lighting &c."    John Lowther - Wednesday, 04/25/07 17:39:36 EDT Hardie Hole Sizes: While the modern standard has been 1" for a few years the European anvils are largely metric and not true 1". For me a 1" shank should fit a 1.010" hardy hole but these sizes came before the era of standard fits and tolerances. A true 1" shank will not fit a true 1" hole. . . My collection of hardy tools include some with 3/4" shanks up through 1-1/8". My 300 Kohlswa and 200 Hay-Budden use shanks in this neighborhood but my old English anvils used smaller. As I have changed anvils I have gotten used to hardy tools sitting loosely in over size holes.    - guru - Wednesday, 04/25/07 17:50:56 EDT Vacuum cleaner motors, etc. Why use a vacuum cleaner motor when old furnace blowers (squirrel cage fans) are available. That's what I use for the electrical side of the blower setup and am very satisfied with it (the manual side involves a 3ft. flywheel on a post running to an old direct drive, non-geared, forge blower all operated by pulling on a rope attached to an eccentric....still needs a BIT of R&D before full implementation) Seriously though, furnace blowers can be had with universal motors, are usually pretty cheap if not free, and are all but noiseless compared to a vacuum motor. Try it....you'll like it. (maybe) -Aaron @ the SCF    thesandycreekforge - Wednesday, 04/25/07 18:10:43 EDT Bruno the traditional method of making a hammer at least in one time/place was to roll up a length of real wrought iron and weld that solid and then weld on steel faces Remember that about 100 years ago the type of metal used for blacksmithing *changed*! If you want to smith like they did before then you will have trouble finding the old stuff to use. Thomas in haste!    Thomas P - Wednesday, 04/25/07 19:34:26 EDT Quich Addition: power hammers are pretty recent in smithing only dating back about 1000 years (one thousand) for the water powered helve hammers. Thomas    Thomas P - Wednesday, 04/25/07 19:40:16 EDT hey does anyone have an idea what an "anvil press" is there are two auctions on the same day at the same time one has blacksmith tools and one has an anvil press Im trying to figure out what auction to attend thanks luke.    coolhand - Wednesday, 04/25/07 20:28:20 EDT Katherine, A good source for gas trains with safety equipment is an industrial boiler repair shop. Small industrial boilers all MUST have proper gas trains to get a inspection to allow insurance. These guys are who are normally called when there is work to be done on industrial furnaces as well. But remember that this will not be a cheap install no matter how you do it if it is to meet insurance requirements. Good luck Bruce, I second the thought to get the 100 amp panel. They are about the cheapest panel available. You can find them in a kit form as well with the main breaker as well as a selection of small breakers as would be used in the typical house. I put in 100 to my shop and have used it all. Bruno, heavy truck axles if made in the recent past say 20 years in western Europe and America will be a material that is optimized for induction heat treat. It will however nicely harden for a hammer if quenched in OIL. Temper within 45 minutes. Do not hold above the critical for long without working as grain growth will rear its ugly head. Good luck.    ptree - Wednesday, 04/25/07 20:35:16 EDT Coolhand, not a clue. However, there are a TON of products sold under the "anvil" brand including equipment cases, restaurant mixers and other items. I would pass on the "anvil press" as it is probably a steam iron. . .    - guru - Wednesday, 04/25/07 20:38:48 EDT Anyone making their own anvil can make hardy tools to match by drilling two holes in a short piece of heavy flat bar and using this as a gig to drill matching holes into their anvil. Weld two short stubs of rod into the flat bar then arc weld whatever shapes you require onto the top of the little platform. Mild steel lasts for years if you are working only hot metal. If you are lucky enough to have found a hardened piece of junk like a big bolt heading die for your anvil, this can be drilled with drills available now that will bore holes in steel as hard as files. The drills I have are German and called "Profi-Line". Keep one drilled piece for a pattern to make it easier to make more tools that will fit your anvil. Hugh McDonald    - Hugh McDonald - Thursday, 04/26/07 05:33:34 EDT I just had this drop off at my shop. It's made by Prentiss, New York. It has 53-93 on one side of the face. Any idea what the 53-93 means???? Thanks IG    Indian George - Thursday, 04/26/07 06:53:21 EDT Indian George. More importantly, what is it we're talking about?    Frank Turley - Thursday, 04/26/07 07:58:54 EDT Burner safety, insurance: Ward Burner Systems, http://www.wardburner.com/ has pretty much what you might be looking for. They have different types of safety systems, from power-fail solenoids ($) to full-blown IR safety systems ($$$). My fire dept. would not approve my forge setup unless I had a commercial burner, with a UL listing. However, they didn't have a problem with not having a safety shutoff. It could be that the inspector didn't really know what to look for. I bought a burner from Ward, but was pretty unsatisfied with it. I got their cheapest cast-iron burner that Mr. Ward said would be fine for my lower pressure (3-PSI max). When it didn't work well at all, he said it was my fault for not specifying the pressure. So I can't really recommend them as far as customer support is concerned. But the website has tons of pretty good technical burner information. And, FWIW, I reverted to my previous blown burner design.    - Marc - Thursday, 04/26/07 08:10:55 EDT Indian George, Prentiss made vices, the numbers would be casting numbers which probably mean nothing except to the foundry. However, occasionally they are part numbers. But this means nothing since the manufacturer is out of business and I have never seen separate parts listings. If you tried to post an image or link in HTML brackets it was filtered. A plain text post will work as we all know how to cut and paste. Just keep the URL's short. Long ones break out page. Ebay items should just have the item number posted without a link.    - guru - Thursday, 04/26/07 08:27:32 EDT thanks for all the suggestions regarding additional forge safety equipment. I guess I should also talk to the insurance people what exactly they want, before I get something they don't care about. Thanks everybody!    Katharine - Thursday, 04/26/07 11:25:01 EDT more and more over the last week or so through reaserch i've been think about using a propane forge, most companies say that they are self regulating to around 2350 deg. and other posts by other blacksmiths have said this isn't hot enough to forge weld with. So is the regulated temp the max temp. of the comercial propane forges?    jimbo - Thursday, 04/26/07 12:06:26 EDT Jimbo, That is all they will guarantee their forges to reach. There is no regulation of the temperature. They often reach higher temperatures and the temperature of propane burning in free air is 2950. The other point is that the light weight refractories used in these forges are not rated over 2400°F and claiming that the forge runs hotter than the refractory rating is a problem for the manufacturer. One thing many folks due to raise forge temperatures is to coat the interior with ITC-100. This reflects more heat than the refractory AND helps protect the refractory from breaking down at high temperature. You can also tweek the space in the forge with a piece of insulating fire brick or kaowool to raise the temperature. Blown forges also run hotter than atmospheric forges. Forge welding is done every day in large and small gas forges by bladesmiths making billets. However, this is a easy weld to make and common blacksmiths tasks like welding forge reins or other small loose pieces are almost impossible in a gas forge. This is where solid fure (coal or charcoal) reins supreme.    - guru - Thursday, 04/26/07 12:51:48 EDT Given a choice most blacksmiths will have both a solid fuel and a gas forge in their shop. Gas forges are clean and easy and most will heat more metal than you can forge by hand. But coal forges are more flexible and will accept odd shaped pieces that will not fit a gas forge.    - guru - Thursday, 04/26/07 12:56:12 EDT Anvil question I recently set up a shop around a Peter Wright anvil, average size, at least 100 lbs, but I haven’t weighed it and it’s now mounted to the stump w/ sheet metal straps. The numbers on the side: NOTING to the left, two in the center, and six to the right. These are large, deeply stamped numbers, but from what I understand, their should be a number or “0” as a placeholder to the left, and I can’t see anything at all, not even something that could have been a number, deformed over time. 0-2-6 would equal 56lbs – it’s definitely much heavier. Can I assume 1-2-6? Did they commonly forget to stamp a number? Btw – it does not say “England” or “London, “so this means it is pre-__? And it’s in fair shape, except for a large chip out of the edge of the face on the far side near the horn (horn points left), and average amount of gouges in the face, and the face is swayed about 1/8”out of flat. Very usable for my new hobby. Auction price - $200    Dave Leppo - Thursday, 04/26/07 13:25:30 EDT I think I have made my choice for an anvil. I plan on purchasing late Summer/early Fall after I get a chance to do some slight remodeling to my building. It was a tough choice and I certainly did my homework although if I had gone to the Hammer-In at Ken's I probably would have one of those Peddinghaus anvils guru spoke about , but it would have been difficult for me to attend. For those that are interested I have chosen the Nimba Centurion: http://www.anvils.nimbaforge.com/centurion.php I think this will suite my needs a little better than the Rathole Forge anvil. Thanks for your responses and opinions and for helping me reach a decision. You guys are great!    Rhordae - Thursday, 04/26/07 14:29:24 EDT Dave, This is not really sufficient information. However, it was common for the lettering including weight and trademark in forged anvils to be very shallow and it takes very little dirt and rust to make them illegible. Cleaning is often necessary to read them. A 0 would be normal but this large figure is hard to stamp the size they stamped them. The hundred weight system divides 112 by 4 so a quarter hundred weight is 28 pounds. 0.2.6 is 62 pounds. Nearly 2/3's of 100 pounds. . . The price was right even if it is a 62 pound PW and very good for a 100.    - guru - Thursday, 04/26/07 14:31:36 EDT