WELCOME to the anvilfire Guru's Den - V. 3.3

THIS is a forum for questions and answers about blacksmithing and general metalworking. Ask the Guru any reasonable question and he or one of his helpers will answer your question, find someone that can, OR research the question for you.

This is an archive of posts from April 1 - 7, 2011 on the Guru's Den
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I found an Armstrong anvil. its 45 pounds, looks old and is well uesed. It has no cracks or chips but a lot of hammer scars. The oner wants 85 dollers for it. Is it worth the money?
   - clayton - Friday, 04/01/11 00:26:44 EDT

It is quite a while since I logged in with a query. I have been reading the forum though and have found it very helpful asI have now started doing some forging of small items- knives, bottle openers and other such items. Being small and slim means I just don't have the strength to do big projects without help.
My query is this. When I am cleaning out my firepot on several occasions I have recovered a clinker in the shape of the statue of liberty. Is this common? Would it be caused by the coal I am using, the blast or the shape of the firepot please?
Thank you for a great site, Jock. It is so helpful. Keep up the good work.
   Beverley Shears - Friday, 04/01/11 03:14:06 EDT

Clinker: Beverley, That is very strange. All my clinkers are shaped like doughnuts. Are you sure its not Pocahontas? Maybe a photo would help.
   guru - Friday, 04/01/11 08:16:38 EDT

Armstrong Anvil: Clayton. I have not heard of an Armstrong Anvil. But there is a Armstrong tool company that makes high quality small forged tools but I do not know of them having made or sold an anvil.

If its a good old anvil a price of less than $2/lb. is not bad. Small anvils tend to sell for more than average size anvils.
   guru - Friday, 04/01/11 08:26:37 EDT

C. Jake, yes I have seen "Fur"... I think about it every time I shave.
   - Nippulini - Friday, 04/01/11 08:58:26 EDT


If you find a clinker in the shape of the Virgin Mary, you'll have everyone in the country coming there to pay homage.
   Mike T. - Friday, 04/01/11 09:11:23 EDT

Next time one of the photographers is over I will ask him to take a photo for me. How do I upload it to the site. I am not very good with computers. More the open air sort of girl.
   Beverley Shears - Friday, 04/01/11 09:48:38 EDT

I am trying to understand how to do austempering. What do you use to make the salt bath quechent? Do you only harden the item in the process or is it tempered as well? I didn't fully understand after reading about the process.
   - Anver - Friday, 04/01/11 15:02:10 EDT

clinkers; I think their shape in related to the impurities and how they are "burned". Mine are usually shaped like volcanic rock, sometimes one " melts" to another or two.
The "Wall"--- those of you from "Indian Country" will know.....The Traveling Wall was just in my area, I went. Never seen it or the main in D.C.,issues you know. Was moved,stirred,hurt, all the emotions. But settled alot of stuff. Got to say good-bye to a friend I wasn't able to find. The same one I went there to find.
   - keith - Friday, 04/01/11 15:14:30 EDT


Glad you got to see it, that's exactly what it is for. Very glad it helped settle some stuff for you. Pax brother, and thanks!

   - Rich - Friday, 04/01/11 16:55:24 EDT

been smithing for a while, been on computers a minit in comparison, i am just amazed at the rail road spike mania! am gonna make a damascus r.r. spike so i can say yes you can make a pretty good knife out of THIS ONE. pax GREAT SITE guru
   - danny arnold - Friday, 04/01/11 18:46:22 EDT

Danny; it's been done Billy Merritt did a pattern welded RR spike about a decade or more ago---it's in his display when he goes to conferences. (but don't let that stop you!)

James Hrisoulas had made a file from a knife too IIRC.

and a personal favorite A.G.Russell once flattened and folded and flattened an Al beer can and honed it till he could shave with it as he was always being hit with "I can shave with my pocket knife"

   Thomas P - Friday, 04/01/11 19:20:09 EDT

I made a damascuc RR spike trowel from a billet Billy Merritt welded in my shop a couple of months ago.
A real RR spike makes a better trowel:)
Just not as pretty.
   ptree - Friday, 04/01/11 19:31:22 EDT

i"ve been smithing for a while only been on computers for a minit in comparison, i am just amazed at the rail road spike mania! i'm gonna make a damascus r.r. spike so i can say "Yes you can make a nice knife out of this one"
   - danny arnold - Friday, 04/01/11 19:41:12 EDT

sorry bout the double post new at this
   danny arnold - Friday, 04/01/11 19:43:11 EDT

Keith, Been in many pw grand entries carrying all the flags at different times: Native staff; U.S; Canadian; MIA; and state.

I had about 30 pounds of rr spikes that just accumulated, kind of like coat hangers do. A guy from Austria contacted me asking about knife making from spikes. I told him they would not work very well unless they were letter openers. He wanted them anyway, so I sent him a box full. Glad to get 'em outta here! Yay!

I don't think austempering is for backyard blacksmiths, although I only know what little I've read. The salt quenchant (a chloride mix?) is heated to just above Ms [martensite start]. The hot workpiece is heated for hardening, submerged, and held in the bath until transformation is complete. If all goes well, the structure will be lower bainite, which is somewhat softer than martensite. Its advantage is that there is less chance of distortion and quenching cracks. High hardenability material must be used, however. There is a little more time required for austempering than with most other quenching methods, even though it is not followed by a tempering treatment.
Reference: "Modern Steels and their Properties" 7th edition, 1972, Bethlehem Steel Corporation.

   Frank Turley - Friday, 04/01/11 20:11:54 EDT

I found a thermometer that goes to 400 degF at the fleamarket today---got it for one of my students who doesn't seem to pay attention when I discuss the "whys" of what I'm teaching him.

Last weekend he preheated his quenching oil to hotter than the draw temp of his piece and then was wondering why it was softer than he wanted...

I once sent a flat rate box of spikes to a kid who wanted them for stock but his parents wouldn't let him collect his own.

   Thomas P - Friday, 04/01/11 20:21:38 EDT

Thomas as you point out soft material can even be honed to cut like a razor for a brief moment. For those who brag about being able to shave with a pocket knife you have a very temporary edge with no durability. Straight razors should be sharpened like razors not knives.

Knives and razors are sharpened in different ways. Creating a burr on the edge of a knife and buffing it to a razor edge is not the proper method. The first time you touch something like a bone or wood the burr rolls over and it is no longer sharp. A knife should not shave or split hair when sharp as it will not have a fine sharpened burr on the edge. When sharpened properly without a burr it can be used time and time again to cut what you want and maintain its edge.

It seems many users and custom builders do not know how to sharpen a knife in a correct method, but could make quick work sharpening a razor. Most things taught on the internet are not correct and more like sharpening a razor. AG Russell's razor can and people bragging on razor sharp edges are not impressive to me since they have no real edge retention.
   - Knife Cutler - Friday, 04/01/11 22:23:56 EDT

second paragraph: will have not will not have
   - Knife Cutler - Friday, 04/01/11 22:48:44 EDT

ignore my correction is incorrect.
   - Knife Cutler - Friday, 04/01/11 22:49:48 EDT

Thank you Frank
Looking to continue with more depth of austempering quench if anyone else can add?
What is math equation to use measurements to calculate stake tool taper? I get there with protractor, but would like to know the math too.
   - Anver - Friday, 04/01/11 22:55:06 EDT

Mr. Turley,

If I understand you correctly, austempering produces a bainite structure in the steel. I think I have seen bainite knives in certain knife books. I am thinking these were cast steel knives. If I remember correctly, the advantage is that they have a rough grain that cuts well ie.-like skinning a deer.

Something I was wondering about. Can you sprinkle nickle or stainless steel, flakes or grains on a knife blade and
inbed them in the steel to make a sparkle pattern ? I have thought that nickle and brass flakes together would be pretty.
   Mike T. - Friday, 04/01/11 23:23:15 EDT

I just bought an anvil and I was wondering how old it was.
It is a Trenton and I was able to recover the serial number. It is z98 a17489. Any help would would be appreciated. Thank you.
   Josh - Friday, 04/01/11 23:35:35 EDT

Stake Taper: Anver, For the math to calculate degrees check any math book or engineering reference. The solution of triangles page of Machinery's Handbook is my favorite. Its the simplest geometry.

Originally I asked about stake tapers in degrees because some makers were selling holders to fit in degrees. . . Like many I asked a question without thinking about it logically. But that is the WRONG UNIT for most machine tapers. Machine tapers including wedges, gibs, pins, are ALL defined in part per unit. That is ratios of inches to feet in the English system which often comes out in simple ratios. Here are the most common stake tapers I have found.

2-1/2" per foot = 5/24
2" per foot = 1/6
1-1/2" per foot = 1/8
1-1/4" per foot = 5/48
1" per foot 1/12

Now, you would think that because these are English inches and feet they do not translate to metric, but LOOK carefully at the math. Those ratios are ALL whole numbers. Simple ratios. So they work just FINE in metric units. 1:6 cm is no different than 1:6 inches, feet or yards. . .

As to degrees they all come out long bastard numbers that are not even in decimals OR degrees, minutes, seconds. . . So throw away your protractor and take the measurements as I show on the Stake Taper page.

To get meaningful numbers the measurements need to be taken with relatively precision tools. Those I took with vernier calipers came very close to even numbers. Those measured by other methods have all been hard to digest.
   - guru - Saturday, 04/02/11 01:21:42 EDT

guru hope you forgive a old braggart, the "smithy " in IFI gallery post by Joshua M is mine and what pityful few pics of my work i have are on my website www arnoldanvilblacksmiths.com danny arnold aka "old n rusty glad to be here thanks
   - danny arnold - Saturday, 04/02/11 02:05:59 EDT


I went to your website and was awe struck by the quality and beauty of your workmanship. You are not only a blacksmith, but also an artist. Some of your wrought iron railings reminds me of the French quarter in New Orleans.
   Mike T. - Saturday, 04/02/11 09:18:40 EDT


Have you considered opening up a school ? I would like to see work such as this all over the country. In some ways it would be like the revival of a lost art.
   Mike T. - Saturday, 04/02/11 09:24:32 EDT

mike T thanks for the flowers! i cannot teach because i dont know what i am doing, or that is i dont know the RIGHT way, all self taught, let me go to Mr. Turleys school, if i live through it, i might be the SMITH that shop demands a real BLACKSMITH! thanks again pax
   danny arnold - Saturday, 04/02/11 09:39:21 EDT

mike T to give you some idea what a bonehead Mr. Turley is going to have to smite it was after some twenty nine years of working alone we got a computer and only then did i find out that wedgey looking part of my Sears "engineers" hammers is called a cross peen and not a clinker scraper
   danny arnold - Saturday, 04/02/11 10:09:28 EDT

Mike T. I've made a few knives, but I am not a "knife aficionado." To my knowledge, the bainite knives are not cast, but are held in the prolonged salt bath.

There is no surface sprinkle/embed method that I know of. You probably need to get on an internet blades forum to ask your questions.
   Frank Turley - Saturday, 04/02/11 10:10:27 EDT

Everyone looks at web sites differently. What jumps out at me is the use of the Peddinghaus anvil image that is from the Ridgid Tools web site in the prominent logo on every page of the web site. Unless Danny has written permission from Ridgid Tools then it is image theft and copyright infringement. Not an auspicious opening to a business.

I notice things like this because when anvilfire was only weeks old someone stole our flaming anvil image, an original work of art produced by my son Patrick FOR me, for anvilfire. The fellow had it embedded it in HIS logo. He claimed his web master did it and the logo was promptly removed. But it makes no difference who did it. Anyone who pays for graphic art and doesn't ask photographs or images came from is responsible for the final outcome.

Since then various people have stolen our anvil logo for their use. I NEVER give permission to ANYONE anywhere to use our anvilfire anvil art. We also have many other images stolen and try to track them down as well.

See Copyright infringement - hall of shame
   - guru - Saturday, 04/02/11 10:43:33 EDT

Hey Danny Arnold. I'm going to tell off on you. You are talented, but self deprecating. I was demonstrating at the Louisiana Metalsmiths gathering in Covington, in 1994, and Danny was present. He was sharpshooting* a little. He said that a better way to do a hinge barrel other than forging was to arc weld a pipe on the end of a strap. He also said that I was sloooow. Of course, I do slow down when explaining forging processes. Anyway, his comment kind of got to me, so I speeded up. One heat to scarf and lap the barrel, one heat to fire weld, and one heat to drift. Danny then asked for the hinge to keep, "as a reminder to be careful about what I say." Someone at the workshop told me that he was a truck driver. I never followed up on it, but apparently, he was a welder. Danny got in touch with me recently, and we had a laugh about that incident.

* A sharpshooter is someone in the audience who is verbally (1) letting you know how much he knows or (2)letting you know how little you know.
   Frank Turley - Saturday, 04/02/11 10:55:45 EDT

Thanks Guru,
Carefully read everything twice on the stake tapers.
   - Anver - Saturday, 04/02/11 11:32:37 EDT

Anver, I need to rewrite the article as it talks a lot about degrees until you get to the notes. However, I am still collecting data and trying to make heads or tails from it.
   - guru - Saturday, 04/02/11 11:44:04 EDT

GURU that website was made by a computerxprt web designer who TRADED a railing for a partially done website durn thing stops us from accessing it to redo pics and the shop remains empty we sit dumb and he Stole the pics and at the bottom he so proudly claim to be a pro! so the railing remains in his house painted and installed and state law prevents me from kicking in the door and attaching a log chain to it to straighten out the deal
   danny arnold - Saturday, 04/02/11 13:26:07 EDT

Thanks Sir Frank, i still got my "reminder", we shall meet again as soon as i return from a little trip i will start saving for tuition. is there a Goverment grant to pay for the tuition? after all i can pass any and all the tests to prove me a dummy. pax
   danny arnold - Saturday, 04/02/11 13:49:59 EDT

Everybody who has made one website or attended one evening class is a "professional web designer".

"Hey Maud, there's a professional web designer at the door". "Just pay him for the pizza and shut the door"!
   - grant - nakedanvil - Saturday, 04/02/11 14:01:14 EDT

Frank, Rich....THANKS, you too PTREE. I know there is more but can't remember who.
HELVE project...after a good start, it is going nowhere. I have been focused on employment and the new roof over the forge so no progress. Did locate a coal dealer in N. California, don't know prices. Will talk to the Historic Sutters Fort 'smith when he comes to my area in a couple months.
   - keith - Saturday, 04/02/11 15:50:35 EDT

Web Art: Well, The logo and images are NOT the web person's fault. That is what you hire photographers and graphic artists to do OR do your own if you have the skills and have no budget. Designing one's logo that should be used on everything from your web site to stationary and personal cards is NOT the business of most web "designers". Doing such work is known as "branding" and is generally much more expensive than building a web site. Depending on your business you might hire a graphic art student and pay them a few thousand dollars (or a couple dozen pizzas)to do a half dozen versions until they hit the right one, OR hire a top graphic artist and pay them $10,000 to do the graphic layout for your web site, OR a PR firm and pay THEM a cool million or so. . THEN hire a web person to convert the pretty art to technically correct HTML.

In every case YOU are responsible for providing raw images OR paying for their production. Dump that responsibility on your web master and you get stolen images. Did you ASK where that graphic came from? You had to know. . .

Tell your "webmaster" that you are being sued by the multinational business that he stole the image from and that you are naming him as the culprit and codefendent. . . and ah. . . your webhosting company is also on that list and they in turn will be countersuing for their costs as well. . .

My brother Paul and I just completed a major re-design of both the Kayne's web sites. I provided a sparks images from my collection of photos and he provided scenic local photos that he took. We also provided header graphics and many others. AND. . . those pretty Peddinghaus anvil photos on THEIR site? I took those. I provided them for their use but *I* own the photos. . . Oh, yeah, there was about 8 to 10 trial designs before we went with what you see now. And now you know why updates are slow getting done here. . .

   - guru - Saturday, 04/02/11 22:22:40 EDT

Glad you mentioned the Kayne's site. Very nice job on the update Jock, first class!
   - Grant - Nakedanvil - Sunday, 04/03/11 00:20:40 EDT

My Firefox kicks out www arnoldanvilblacksmiths.com as "poor reputation" on all four counts.
   - Tom H - Sunday, 04/03/11 00:21:36 EDT


I noticed you live in Baton Rouge. I was telling my brother-in-law today how Baton Rouge got its name. Back when the French had a settlement there, the indians set up a boundary line, marking their territory. This boundary line consisted of Red Sticks being stuck in the ground. And that is what Baton Rouge means, Red Stick. However, the French would have pronounced it differently, the Baton would have been pronounced like the baton a majorette twirls in the air.
   Mike T. - Sunday, 04/03/11 00:23:41 EDT

Without a doubt, Jimmy Swaggart there in Baton Rouge, was and still is the best preacher in the world. And like his cousins, Jerry Lee Lewis and Mickey Gilley, a wonderful singer and musician, I bet he could afford a million or two for you to make wrought iron gates and railings around his place. No kidding, show him your work.
   Mike T. - Sunday, 04/03/11 00:36:44 EDT

Jimmy got gates made from 3/8" plate bullet proof< and no see in his estate, walls are high too
   danny arnold - Sunday, 04/03/11 03:49:37 EDT

Tom H you serious? what i gotta do?
   danny arnold - Sunday, 04/03/11 03:51:32 EDT

Security Warnings - Web site BS All kinds of things can trigger those depending on the browser, plugin, security settings. . . I looked at your home page source code and there is nothing mechanically wrong with your site - but their ARE numerous web code errors. Nothing that should flag a security error.

A simple google search found possible answers, something called the "WOT" or "Web of Trust" plugin. Search for "Web of Trust bad rating abuse" for more.

The way the WOT works is that anyone can file an untrustworthy complaint against a web site. So, if someone doesn't like you, your politics, religion, business practices, sexual orientation or lack there of, wants to censor you, OR recognized that Peddinghaus anvil in your logo and figured someone that steals a company icon to use as their own must be a crook in all other parts of their business. . .

Other parts of the WOT rating can include things like the web server your site is hosted on may be known for malicious behaviors . .

WOT claims that its rating system uses all kinds of industry input such as from anti-virus companies, security auditors and so on and that their ratings are accurate. BUT the majority of the system is "community based". A completely bogus system that allows for a LOT of abuse. However, you can go to WOT and ask to have your rating cleared. It is probably not easy to do. . .

In general you are in deep do with your website. For one thing, you do not own it, WHOIS says

VNetPro Software
PO BOX 87022
Baton Rouge, LA 70879

That means he can sell your domain, not pay the bill and have it disappear or anything else and you do not have a legal leg to stand on. . Its no different than having the title of your can in someone elses name. It also has a google site map and analytics tags on it that are also probably in his name unless you set them up OR he set them up in your name and gave you the password. Then there is the question of who the server billing is going to (not a public record).

So you put a lot of trust in someone without understanding what you were doing. . . And on the other hand pissed someone off.

Aren't we having fun. . .
   -guru - Sunday, 04/03/11 10:09:08 EDT

The bill for my web consultant fee is in the mail.
   - guru - Sunday, 04/03/11 10:14:24 EDT

looking to buy a mobile forge. I was thinking about the swan gas forge the " euro fitter" it's a one or two burner. Does anybody have any experience with Swan forges.? Also would a one burner do just as good as a two? Thanks for any input.
   Roddy - Sunday, 04/03/11 10:34:08 EDT

was so much easier when all i needed to worry about was if we paid the fone bill and clinkers
   danny arnold - Sunday, 04/03/11 10:35:11 EDT

Small Forges Roddy, Swan makes excellent forges. But I cannot advise you on size unless I know what you are doing. I don't know about the Swan single burner but the NC Whisper Baby is only good for very small work. I'd say too small for shoeing. But NC uses modular burners (they are all the same) and adds burners with size. On the other hand you can build a big rip-roaring furnace with a single large burner.
   -guru - Sunday, 04/03/11 11:06:23 EDT

I'm a farrier so I'll be using it for shoeing and tool making i.e priitchels,tongs and such.Currently I have a pro forge 200 great forge if it's stationary otherwise the lining falls apart and the plate breaks driving on bumpy roads. I was looking at the specs for swan"euro fitter" at 4bar it has 51 btu how much heat is that?
   Roddy - Sunday, 04/03/11 12:56:44 EDT

51 BTU? I think my Zippo puts out that much! Something wrong with that number.
   - grant - nakedanvil - Sunday, 04/03/11 13:48:25 EDT

To get a feeling for the BTU that your current forge uses:

A 20 pound bottle has 430,370 TOTAL BTU. Max recommended draw rate is 1/10th (in cool conditions). So at full draw you have 7 to 10 hours use or about 60,000 to 43,000 BTU.

If your 20 pound propane bottle is not freezing up then you are using less than about 50,000 BTU. Most small forges will run on that. If a full bottle freezes up in an hour or so then you are using about twice that much.

Since it is rare to run a small forge straight through an 8 hour day a 51,000 BTU forge SHOULD run fine on a 20lb bottle but in cold weather may freeze up by your mid-day break.

I suspect that "51" number is missing a multiplier of 1,000.
   -guru - Sunday, 04/03/11 15:33:00 EDT

Enough heat for what you want.Cecil makes forges specifically for the farriery trade. He is a farrier. He knows what farriers need. Most of the farriers that I've seen use his equipment.
   - Chris E - Sunday, 04/03/11 17:27:07 EDT

If still in doubt telephone Cecil and he will advise you as to the best model for your application
   - Chris E - Sunday, 04/03/11 17:47:38 EDT

Anyone have any experience with Atlantic 33 steel? pros? Cons? Brent Baily makes his hammers out of it. What's the advantage of the flutagon cross-section?
   Frank Turley - Sunday, 04/03/11 18:05:04 EDT

Looked at a web description of the Swan forge. The Europeans put a period in numbers where we would put a comma; it's rated at 51,781 BTU/Hr.


Atlantic 33 is popular here (on the East Coast, strangely enough) for hot work tools. I've been told to just use in in a normalized condition. I suspect the flutagon is just a trademark, though it does make it easy to identify the stuff on a rack. Don't know any more than that.
   Mike BR - Sunday, 04/03/11 18:14:33 EDT

Frank- A Hammer's Blow from 5 to 10 years back had an article on sourcing and HT Atlantic 33. One from the Brian Gilbert era. IIRC MikeBR is correct in that folks use it in as forged condition. Please let us all know what you think of it.
   Judson Yaggy - Sunday, 04/03/11 18:55:28 EDT

Bainite is formed by quenching to and holding the steel at at temperature of about 1100F so that bainite forms instead of martensite. Bainite is tougher than martensite but not as hard. A lot of lawn mower blades are bainitic. I think the term regarding the cast blades is "dendritic" not bainitic.
   quenchcrack - Sunday, 04/03/11 19:05:07 EDT

QUENCHCRAK....bainitic mower blades...how can you tell if they are and how should they be worked? have reworked a couple and basically "ruined". could failure be due to the "bainitic qualities"?
   - keith - Sunday, 04/03/11 19:42:11 EDT

Quench thanks. Anyone onw know what all to use in mixes up the witches brew for austempering?
   - Anver - Sunday, 04/03/11 20:01:20 EDT

Hey thanks Frank. I hope you are doing well, see you at the pow wow hopefully.
   Roddy - Sunday, 04/03/11 20:07:17 EDT

Bainite is an intermediate structure between ferrite and martensite. Unless you have a metallurgical microscope, you will not be able to tell if the blade is bainitic. Austempering is usually done is molten salt (not a brine solution, melted salt) although sometimes you can use a fluidized bed furnace. I would caution everyone not to try that process at home; a drop of water at the bottom of a molten salt bath becomes steam and then hydrogen and oxygen very quickly. It tends to expand VERY quickly throwing the 1100F salt all over the place. If you heat a bainitic blade to non-magnetic, you can quench it in water since most bainitic steels are fairly low in carbon and make lousy knife blades.
   quenchcrack - Sunday, 04/03/11 20:41:59 EDT

Atlantic 33, Flutagon: Atlantic makes their alloy 33 in various cross sections. One is (or was) a square with rounded corners and slightly inwardly rounded sides. This cross section is called "flutagon" by Atlantic. It makes wonderful chisels to hold. The shape has become associated with the alloy but they are two different things.

Danial Boone swears by Atlantic 33 and I bought several lengths of it from him but I've not made anything from it. He makes all his hot work tools from it including slender chisels that hold up very well doing hot work. I would think making hammers from it would be overkill but avoiding heat treating could be the reason.
   -guru - Sunday, 04/03/11 21:53:32 EDT

Flutagon: I heard that the shape was intended for PTO drive shafts on agricultural equipment that slide through a coupling in use, and the alloy was developed for extreme toughness with simple heat treat. I don't remember where I got this information, may have been from Dan Boon at a demo, as He is the only person I know of that seems to be using or knows where to get the stuff.
   - Dave Boyer - Sunday, 04/03/11 22:27:00 EDT

BAINITE.....thanks for info..i was actually trying to reshape after kids hit a not short enough stump in tall grass. an end had broke and whole blade bent. i must have done something wrong, usually do. part of learning.
   - keith - Sunday, 04/03/11 23:52:34 EDT

I can't believe the heavily rounded corners of the flutagon shape would make a good drive coupling. But maybe the driving is from the inner flanks of the grooves. But is sure makes a comfortable grip.
   -guru - Monday, 04/04/11 02:43:36 EDT

Thanks for Atlantic 33 info. SWABA is thinking about ordering some to sell to the membership.
   Frank Turley - Monday, 04/04/11 10:55:28 EDT

Okay, here's the hot Italian models....


You can see the rest of the show in that gallery... just look for my nipples.
   - Nippulini - Monday, 04/04/11 12:55:03 EDT

Wow, Weird babes AND fireworks! Looks like a circus. . Oh yeah! That's what its supposed to be!

Things that roll can have surprisingly high friction when things are not right. . .

I watched a movie last night, "Tatoo, A Love Story". Looked like your kind of folks. . or was that you getting a tat?

   -guru - Monday, 04/04/11 14:44:44 EDT

Wasn't that an episode of Fantasy Island?
   - Nippulini - Monday, 04/04/11 17:55:09 EDT

Flutagon Shape: If that story is true, I think the idea is that a square shaft in a square hole drives on the corners of the square, a really small area. If this small area gets a step worn in it where it runs the most, it won't slide properly when it has to. The Flutagon shape in a square hole allows for a corner radius in the square hole [reduced stress riser] and distributes the contact over greater area [arguably]. The obvious disadvantage is the smaller effective diameter of the contact area increases loading.

Has anyone ever seen Flutagon, or Atlantic 33 used for anything other than blacksmithing tools? I doubt that it was developed specificly for that.
   - Dave Boyer - Monday, 04/04/11 22:07:30 EDT

Dave, I'm told it is bought by the tones by the steel industry for tools. No specifics.

I've broken the menu Post button. . .
   - guru - Monday, 04/04/11 22:25:01 EDT

Here's a connection to Atlantic steel:
   Frank Turley - Monday, 04/04/11 22:53:48 EDT

Welll. . . I've broken the page.
   - guru - Monday, 04/04/11 23:57:08 EDT

I got an old anvil vice the other day and would like more info on it I have a photo of it but there is no name that I can find the anvil can be removed and it is part of the vice jaw there is a hardy hole in the anvil. the photo sayes it all how do I send it
   crazylady farms - Tuesday, 04/05/11 00:02:15 EDT

Crazylady, you could mail it to me. Click on my name.

See Multi-Tool Anvils for more information.
   - guru - Tuesday, 04/05/11 00:40:51 EDT

Awwwww, you used the pic of the weird anvil/vise thingy I saw at the flea market.

Hey, the url is long, so just copy and paste this to see my dramatic appearance on Italian TV.

   - Nippulini - Tuesday, 04/05/11 08:30:21 EDT

The momentary cut to the woman cringing as they hooked you up was perfect!
   - guru - Tuesday, 04/05/11 08:48:17 EDT

Well, Its fixed. I'm not happy with the fix but it works now.

I've enlarged the input box a bit. Will try to move buttons back where they were but it is a surprisingly technical thing (button in one Frame telling another what to do. . . ) and I broke it when trying to update the menu. . .

I tried putting the buttons on the right and did not like that either. . . Hmmmm. maybe the bottom. . .
   - guru - Tuesday, 04/05/11 15:40:06 EDT

Now it looks like the Hammer-In
   - Nippulini - Tuesday, 04/05/11 15:51:47 EDT

Now its not. . .

When I first launched anvilfire all the pages fit on a 640x480 monitor. It is only in the last two years that I've started building pages that need 900 or 1040 pixel wide displays. The most common monitor sizes are now 1040 and UP. Mine displays at 1700 wide and full screen is bigger than any television I every owned.

But nearly all of our pages can be resized to fit any display. This makes some look a little odd when resized very large and it really tears up a nice looking design. But I like the flexibility and HATE over wish pages that force me to open a window larger than 1040. Decisions, decisions. .
   - guru - Tuesday, 04/05/11 16:19:59 EDT

AND NOW. . . The whole issue started with the addition of a more complete menu on this page while adding our new anvilfire Tailgate page.

This is a new sales listing page in the spirit of the old Blacksmiths Junkyard. This version is open to the public. You do not need to register. IF you wish to add links or images you DO need to register. Former CSI members and guru's with logins are already registered.

Currently the fee system is voluntary and we will be announcing free listings for April. We DO ask for a small donation is you sell something.

The current system is fairly primitive. We are working on a higher tech version that will handle registrations automatically. It will also let the user edit ads, insert paypal and ebay buttons as well as automatically expire ads on an expiry date. The current version is just the beginning.
   - guru - Tuesday, 04/05/11 16:35:44 EDT

so thank you Guru that helps a lot! now i can look at my sentences and try to type something legible thanks you and Glenn Conner are saints MIG wire halos in mail
   danny arnold - Tuesday, 04/05/11 16:49:28 EDT

Atlantic 33: the reason I asked about the primary user is that in the machine building & tool & die trades we used few trade name steels that didn't fall into an AISI or SAE catagory. I had never heard of Atlantic 33, but then I never built hot work tooling other than compression transfer molds, and A2 is fine in that heat range.
   - Dave Boyer - Tuesday, 04/05/11 21:13:55 EDT

Dave Boyer, I too don't know many of the "Name"steels. I am aquanted with Finkle die steel and Hardtem A and Hardtem B. Both hothot forging die steels for closed die work.
Now in the chemical resistant steels I do know and have working knowledge of many. But the Alantic 33 is not one I have heard of except here.
   ptree - Tuesday, 04/05/11 21:28:00 EDT

Guru's Den 4.2 : So. . while I was fixing what I broke (It had been almost 10 years since I setup the javascript menu system). . I've remodeled the guru's den a little. This is not a major overhaul, just some tweeking.

The new look includes an expanded side bar menu, an enlarged input box and a subject heading box like the Hammer-In. The little box labeled "ink" is the signature color of those logged in as CSI members and "gurus". General Tailgate members will also be given a color but that is in the works.

Currently the old login system goes to the defunct CSI members page which I need to clear out. If you login via the Tailgate page it prevents getting into an unsupported set of pages. However, as always the page is open to the general public.
   - guru - Wednesday, 04/06/11 10:01:46 EDT

Mike T. : Guru,

I wouldn't mind paying a membership fee to post on this site. It is very informative. At least have a place where we can make a donation.
   Mike Thompson - Wednesday, 04/06/11 11:05:47 EDT

Donations : Mike there is a form on the Tailgate, and a MISC form at the bottom of the store page. But I do need a special "donation" form. With the economy the way it is we certainly could use the money.

As to posting, we have always been open to the public but as we add features thee has to be some kind of control to prevent abuses. On the Tailgate page the ability to post images and links is restricted to those who are logged in as site members. Since we are using the old CSI database and they supported us through some rough times all CSI members are automatically members (even though CSI is defunct). But the public can still post listings.
   - guru - Wednesday, 04/06/11 12:09:06 EDT

Bainite : Recently, the topic of Bainite came up and QC gave an excellent answer. For more information than you want about it, the book Bainite in Steels: Transformations, Microstructures and Properites: 2nd edition edited by H K D H Bhadeshia of Cambridge University is available as a free down load at http://www.msm.cam.ac.uk/phase-trans/newbainite.html

Or, you could buy it from Maney Publishing Company's US representatives - David Brown Co at $160 a new copy. It shows up on the used book searches at somewhere beteen about $135 to $600
   - gavainh - Wednesday, 04/06/11 17:05:36 EDT

abebooks.com $84 + $7.33 shipping to USA from UK

   Thomas P - Wednesday, 04/06/11 17:21:04 EDT

Bainite : Gavainh, thanks for the URL. I had that downloaded at a previous job but lost it when I left. Great reference on Bainite.
   quenchcrack - Wednesday, 04/06/11 21:11:19 EDT

Nippulini : Sorry, dude, hairy nipples just don't float my boat.
   quenchcrack - Wednesday, 04/06/11 21:13:55 EDT

Nippulini : Nipp, I told my Pop's about you and we watched all your videos. He got a kick out of it. I showed him your parents, so he can see you come from normal stock...lol. My sister is in Philly, so some day I may just happen by your shop to give you a friendly tittie twister...LMAO.
   - Anver - Wednesday, 04/06/11 22:45:13 EDT

can a Miller SRH 444 stand a LOT OF HEAVY GOUGING at 400 amps all day?
   danny arnold - Wednesday, 04/06/11 23:03:21 EDT

I went to the tailgate site, got an idea, need someone to send out a communique to all the blacksmiths in the South to bring all their stuff to a central location for a huge auction. I think everyone who goes to an auction, expects to go home with something.
   Mike Thompson - Thursday, 04/07/11 02:58:07 EDT

Punch press : I was directed here by another forum for machinists. I work with punch presses making Aerospace fasteners out of Nickel-based alloys(Inco 718, Waspaloy, MP59, etc.). Because of the critical nature of the parts and the fact that the heads are finished surfaces, if the part sticks in the ram it can fall and damage itself. The part will cool and fall out before the operator can grab the piece and it will get knicks. I really need the part to stay in the bed. I have tried to make the bed a little smaller to hold the piece tighter, use a stripper pin timed for the bottom of the cycle to knock it out before the rams lifts back up, and experimented with different lubes. The one the operators like the best is called Deltaforge(graphite & water). I was told ptree had talked about good parting fluids for red hot pieces before and that he could help. If it is important, we generally head the metal to between 950 and 1050C. The nickel alloys are very hard even at near melting temperature. Any help is appreciated.
   SPS - Thursday, 04/07/11 08:37:14 EDT

Punch Lube : SPS, You want to contact Henkel Technologies. Ask for P3™ Forge 185. Mail coming your way.
   - guru - Thursday, 04/07/11 09:46:53 EDT

maybe i AM as dumb as a bag of hammers, but i cannot seem to get REGISTERED in the chat. and all i see is a strip across the bottom of an otherwise empty page. please help when you can find the time, sir.
   danny arnold - Thursday, 04/07/11 10:34:34 EDT

SPS, the Henkel product is very good for temps that will flash off the water content. You will need to trial and find the concentration and spray timing that will give a good solid film layer without excessive film buildup. Forging 1541H in upsetters, we squirted with about a 5% concentration to remove the heat from the dies, and cut off the squirt to give adaquate time in the cycle for the film to flash out the water. In high speed forging say 6 to 8 seconds between hits this was the way to hold die temp down, and the excellent solid film lubrication allowed for very good die life and for very good headstamp marking.
   ptree - Thursday, 04/07/11 10:39:03 EDT

QC, I shave my nipple hair all off... now the chest hair, well, let's say it's true what they say about whiskey.
   - Nippulini - Thursday, 04/07/11 11:07:51 EDT

Pub Registrations :
Danny, I have looked through and done a search on our pub registrations and cannot find your name or email address. We get a ton of spam mixed in with the registrations and I might have accidentally deleted it. .

Note that Registering for the pub does not register you for the tailgate. That is a seperate system. We are currently building a system to sync our legacy systems together. . .
   - guru - Thursday, 04/07/11 12:08:06 EDT

Pub Registration Form : Danny, just scroll down on the registration page. Its there.
   - guru - Thursday, 04/07/11 12:15:18 EDT

TGN---TMI or I'll have to start discussing having to remove hair for my insulin set...

I did trim my beard back several inches last Sunday when I was adjusting the gas forge and the wind suddenly shifted quadrants, (only about 20-30 mph though so just a normal NM day)

I heard on another forum that Bruce Blackistone (Atli) has had a medical emergency and will be offline a bit. We wish him the best and hope this was merely a ploy to cover up his viking raids while the government is shut down...(treasury is a good place to start!---The Smithsonian is offlimits---till I get there!)

   Thomas P - Thursday, 04/07/11 13:11:07 EDT

Hair removal. . . not here please.

I'm a lot closer to the Smithsonian than you are and have a heavy truck to boot. . .
   - guru - Thursday, 04/07/11 16:30:20 EDT

Name confusion : I thought that I was reading some post made by me but realized I havent been here in a long time.
Guru you can change me to Yesteryear Forge if you want to eliminate any confusion.
MIKE-T instead of MIKE T
Mike Tanner
   - MIKE-T - Thursday, 04/07/11 18:08:48 EDT

Nipple Hair : I am beginning to regret bringing that subject up in this crowd. I had a heart stress test a few years ago and the nurse shaved about a dozen silver-dollar sized holes in my chest hair for the electrodes. It itched for months growing back. I don't know how you stand it Nip, or do you keep it off with a depilitory?
   quenchcrack - Thursday, 04/07/11 19:47:41 EDT

Mike Tanner,
I wish my mother had not named me Mike. When I was in school, the teacher would say..is Mike Thompson here ? And half the hands would go up. I was in Wal-Mart one day and the intercom said...would Mike Thompson come to the front desk. As it turned out, the managers name was Mike Thompson. Now for the show stopper !! I know a guy who goes by the name of N.R. Hopper, any guess as to what the N.R. stands for ? How about Napoleon Royal ? Yep. A lady I know is named Margie, guess what it says on her birth certificate ? How about Oleo Margerine ? Yep. Ever hear of a couple of twins named Orangjello and lemonjello Yep Orange Jello and Lemon Jello.
It can always be worse. :)
   Mike Thompson - Thursday, 04/07/11 21:59:38 EDT

Change of subject (fer the love of...) : So, would it be feasible to use TIG process to weld layers of stainless with HC steel? Almost like pattern welded billets? Just an idea I've been throwing around in my head...
   - Nippulini - Thursday, 04/07/11 22:22:22 EDT

Arc Weld Lamination : Nip, You can arc weld stainless onto carbon steel but it is very difficult to weld carbon steel onto stainless. Now. . . you could fill grooves in a billet with stainless then remove the "back" and have a piece with alternating steel and stainless. You could also weld on two sides of a relatively large steel billet, then draw it out to make finer lines. This could then be made into something, then etched. It would not be as classy as forge welded but you could make a pattern.

Not hard to do, try it.
   - guru - Thursday, 04/07/11 22:53:23 EDT

Su nombre (Your name) : Imagine what they call you in middle and high school when your name is "Jock"? I always knew I was named after my grandfather but until I was an adult I did not know Jock was his nick name given to him Italian mobsters who thought Jock was an Irish name. When I learned his name was Oscar I decided Jock was OK. Then the Internet came along and you could search for other people with your name. As far as I can determine I am the only Jock Dempsey on the planet. This has obvious pros and cons. . .
   - guru - Thursday, 04/07/11 23:05:02 EDT

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