WELCOME to the anvilfire Guru's Den - V. 3.3

THIS is a forum for questions and answers about blacksmithing and general metalworking. Ask the Guru any reasonable question and he or one of his helpers will answer your question, find someone that can, OR research the question for you.

This is an archive of posts from April 8 - 15, 2011 on the Guru's Den
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Forks update: We got them old forks pulled out, and set aside I swear no torch got within 20 feet of them though i am slightly concerened about the gouging heat, we scaled back to 4oo amps in stead of going to the max, and pulled back off the piece with the hot tip of the carbon, heat treat maintenance is so important
   hotshort - Friday, 04/08/11 10:35:51 EDT

Fork to anvil conversion - Seeing as one of my two anvils made from that fork had to be welded up a bit, I wasn't worried about maintaining any existing heat treatment. The working surface on the larger piece was never thermally altered. The smaller piece went through a preheat/weld/cooling cycle. There was VERY little difference in the resulting working face when I did a bearing bounce test on both pieces. I eventually tried to flame harden the face of the smaller one and quench with a high pressure pump while drining our hottub. Again, i don't see much of a difference.

   - MikeM-OH - Friday, 04/08/11 13:00:48 EDT

Fork to anvil conversion - Seeing as one of my two anvils made from that fork had to be welded up a bit, I wasn't worried about maintaining any existing heat treatment. The working surface on the larger piece was never thermally altered. The smaller piece went through a preheat/weld/cooling cycle. There was VERY little difference in the resulting working face when I did a bearing bounce test on both pieces. I eventually tried to flame harden the face of the smaller one and quench with a high pressure pump while drining our hottub. Again, i don't see much of a difference.

Even "garage annealed," that fork has a better bounch than a cast steel ASO.

The larger piece, with the cross bar intact, has a deafening ring. I currently have it quieted down a bit in a strange way. Remember, this thing is ~30 inches tall... more of a tuning fork than a block. The baseplate sits on several pieces of old carpet and the whole stack stands inside a rubbermaid trash can, cut off to let 5-6" stick up over the rim. The truncated trash can is full of water, which completely deadens the ring.

I kep meaning to add an expanded metal guard to the top of the can to prevent work dropping all the way to the bottom....
   MikeM-OH - Friday, 04/08/11 13:01:20 EDT

I always meant to add a plywood cover to the 55 gallon drum holding my demo postvise; but I still remember a lot of "wet to the shoulder" incidents...

I was wondering if wrapping the shaft with inner tube material under tension would help?

QC every 3 days I get to rip a fairly well stuck patch off my abdomen with a cannula stuck into me under it. Ripping the hair off seems to produce less itching than other methods...

Just wait till you have to swallow a camera "pill" and they put pickups all up and down your front!

   Thomas P - Friday, 04/08/11 13:23:24 EDT

Fork to Anvil : : While fork lift forks are heat treated they are not particularly hard. I do not know the specs but I suspect they are like high strength bolts that are tempered up into 1,000#&176;F range. These are parts that are made to be strong and tough, not hard and brittle. Forks should bend, not break.

That means you have to get it a hotter than the original tempering temperature to reduce what hardness there is.
   - guru - Friday, 04/08/11 14:15:54 EDT

Water Tank Vise Stands & deep Quench Tanks : Its difficult to reach to the bottom of a 55 gallon drum even if using tongs. Its not just wet to the shoulder, its dunk you head to reach it time. . . So a screen about half way down is handy. It is also better for quenching since the part does not reach the bottom of the tank and cool more on one side than the other.

Good screen to do this needs to be either fairly heavy expanded metal or hot dip galvanized hardware cloth (the type with the 3/8" or 1 cm spacing). The ideal would be heavy stainless screen. If expanded metal is used for heavy parts you might want a finer screen over it to catch the little pieces you toss in. . . The more scraps you have in the bottom of the tank the faster it rusts out (if a steel tank).

A handy screen for this purpose is deep-fry cooking baskets. While they don't cover an entire 55 gallon drum area they are made of stainless and fairly heavy duty. Fairly large ones can be found a restaurant suppliers and many of these folks deal in used stuff.
   - guru - Friday, 04/08/11 14:45:18 EDT

Forge Blower : Right now I have both a small electric squirrel fan with an inlet baffle to control output and a large Canady Otto blower set up for more intense heat when needed (one remains closed off when the other is in use). I use coke for my fire so I need constant air flow. I've been offered, (for sale), a cast iron snail fan w/ pully for an exterior drive. If I choose to go this route, would I control the air better and put less stress on the motor if I were to put a baffle on the intake or a rheostat on the motor?
   Thumper - Friday, 04/08/11 15:16:07 EDT

Forge Blowers : Thumper, I've heard it both ways but since many manufacturers put the gate on the intake I suspect that is best. But you can also purchase a nice in-line gate from our advertisers.

If your big blower is overkill and runs on a belt drive I would try to figure out what is a good maximum speed for the forge and belt it slower than the maximum. This will let the motor run proportionately faster which is good for the motor and blower alike. You could also possibly use a smaller motor.

The trouble with this plan is that many belt driven blowers have a pulley that requires a very small (usually 2" - 50mm) pulley on the 1800 RPM motor. You can go a little smaller but not much with common V-belts.

Commonly available (IE cheep) motor controls are for very low HP motors and may not work on a larger blower. They can also result in motor burn out if one attempts to start the motor at low speed and it stalls. I have also had trouble with creep (usually slower) on such controls.

I've found that convienience of the control (a nice easy to reach lever) is more important than the type of control. My first little auto-wheel forge had a nice wood handled lever that operated the draft gate (discharge side from manufacturer). The fact that the control was easy to get to and easy to work made it nice to use compared to others that I've used that were not so convenient.

On my big gas forge I have a push pull control with a heavy steel ring on it that you can jerk back and forth with tongs or a hammer. Its on a sliding bar with a notch that operates a heavy duty roller switch.

When in a hurry you don't have to drop tools or gently operate a switch. SLAM! Its off, Whack! Its on. . . no damage to the controls. Very blacksmithy.
   - guru - Friday, 04/08/11 18:26:03 EDT

I have a leaf blower on mine, and an in-line valve with a lever on it.
   Mike Thompson - Friday, 04/08/11 20:25:17 EDT

Tire Tumbler : Jock, I saw the tumbler Your Dad made in the tailgate section. How did it work out? I know a guy with a rail, and had wondered how an old slick would do as a drum.
   - Dave Boyer - Friday, 04/08/11 23:00:42 EDT

Forge blower gate : Putting the gate on the blower intake causes the blower to run on less air, therefore less pressure, therefore less load on the motor. Putting the gate on the output causes the blower to try to compress air, putting more load on the motor. Straightforward physics, according to my engineer friends.
   - Rich - Saturday, 04/09/11 00:18:40 EDT

Tire Tumbler : Dad's machine worked pretty well. The idea of using tires is that they are cheap and easy to replace. They have the suggested rubber lining.

The problem this device has is splashing and loss of water and occasionally small parts through the large holes. But this would be the same with any tumbler. If you build one it needs covers on the sides.

Like all tumblers you have to get the speed right so parts tumble, not slide. And you have to experiment with media. Dad bought a bunch of commercial media for his small aluminium parts and ended up using little 3/8" (~1cm) squares of 3M wet or dry (240 grit I think) as media.

The only problem I could see using a low profile (60 series or less) tire is rarity. If you wear one out and you do not have racing contacts then a replacement might be difficult. This assumes you ever wear it out. . Otherwise the wide width would be better than common tires which can tend to close up.
   - guru - Saturday, 04/09/11 05:26:17 EDT

Tire Tumbler II : This same machine could be used with a steel drum made from heavy pipe, a hot water heater tank or similar.

The aluminium parts Dad was tumbling were quite small. Little 2" square by 1/8" thick covers for a little gear box he was making. After tumbling they were anodized. They came out with a very even finish and gently rounded corners.

As-built Dad's machine had a Milwaukee electric drill powering it. This was Dad's way of getting low speed and variable speed control. The drill motor was noisier than the tumbling. The reason it is not on the machine is Dad took it off to power a small lathe and that is where it stayed.
   - guru - Saturday, 04/09/11 10:49:21 EDT

Auction of a lot of fabrication equipment,www.asset-sales. com
   danny arnold - Sunday, 04/10/11 14:23:03 EDT

Tailgate Sales :
Josh has listed two more anvils on the Tailgate page. We need more listings! Its easy to do. There have been over 1,000 hits to the main page and nearly 3,000 total page views in just the last few days.

I've done some page tweeking. Added listing numbers to the category buttons and I'm working on page bottom links. I've also setup a statistics page but will not make it public until there is significant traffic. Lots more to do. . .
   - guru - Sunday, 04/10/11 14:51:31 EDT

slack tub is down?
   danny arnold - Sunday, 04/10/11 20:22:12 EDT

Pub : Nope, working fine. Remember that the login is case sensitive.
   - guru - Sunday, 04/10/11 21:24:11 EDT

Guru all i see is a blank page telling me its for reg. users only no log in atall
   danny arnold - Sunday, 04/10/11 21:46:20 EDT

Thanks Rich, thanks Guru.
   Thumper - Sunday, 04/10/11 22:47:06 EDT

Login : Its probably because you changed your user name. . . Try clearing your cookies, shutting down your browser and logging back in. Something is confused.
   - guru - Sunday, 04/10/11 23:51:25 EDT

tailgating : Is the tailgating section open to others in the UK? Obviously item's location would need to be clearly stated.
   - Chris E - Monday, 04/11/11 00:59:34 EDT

Guru, clearing cookies? whats a browser?the last time i got in fine, Saturday, all was easy to log in, as far as i know i did not change anything. Sorry to be a bother, dan
   danny arnold - Monday, 04/11/11 05:59:51 EDT

International Tailgate Sales :
Chris, Yes, We get a lot of traffic from the UK and have a lot of regular users there. In fact, we get traffic from over 100 countries each month. We see a lot of traffic through google translate.

Systems such as ebay seperate things into local counties for a variety of reasons. But more and more people are searching these sites internationally. Small items that ship by mail are commonly purchased this way but even anvils are being purchased in the UK, France and Germany then shipped to the U.S. Of course these heavy items require special planning, logistics as well as paying the the costs.

Some ebay'ers that ship internationally have U.S. accounts and list on American ebay (or are all English ebay listings on the smae system?). I've bought micrometers that were shipped from Australia. And through Bookfinder I've bought books from the Netherlands, Spain and Australia.

The Internet has done more to make the marketplace truly a global market. I've seen blacksmith sites in various parts of Eastern Europe written in English quoting dollar prices. We often ship overseas from our shopping cart as well.
   - guru - Monday, 04/11/11 08:00:01 EDT

What's a Browser and More :
Danny, the computer program that you access the Internet with is a "Browser".

Moved to What is a Browser? Learning to be a Cyber Citizen

   - guru - Monday, 04/11/11 08:59:20 EDT

"Something anyone should be told that goes on the Internet is that it is like a dark alley next to the red-light zone just behind the mall in a big city with the police permanently on strike. There are viruses, hijackers, thieves and con men at every step. If you don't know what you are doing you are dead meat. . ."

And pirates! (Don't forget the pirates!)

Thank God(s) my sons serve as advisors and guardians; and Jock is an endless source of good advice. This is one great site here, for not just blacksmithing but the somewhat interrelated skills of communications in the 21st century. My appreciation to all who so generously give of their time, knowledge, and talent.

Cloudy and getting warmer on the banks of the lower Potomac. The wif is walking me over to the forge today to inspect things and pick up some tools for her gardening.

Visit your National Parks: www.nps.gov

Go viking: www.longshipco.org
   Bruce Blackistone (Atli) - Monday, 04/11/11 11:16:52 EDT

Enjoy your walk! Glad you can do it.

Yep, Arrrrgg. . . pirates. Video pirates, software pirates, image pirates
   - guru - Monday, 04/11/11 12:52:09 EDT

So Bruce; is she going to hit you up with the "This will make a great place to store things until you get better---or the end of time---whichever is *longer*!

Talked with a local geologist at church Sunday. Local job picture is pretty poor in Geology.

   Thomas P - Monday, 04/11/11 14:30:25 EDT

guru, thanks, a computer course might be necessary if i really cared about it, fact is i am just about completely recovered from a major operation. I am going back to work in my old familiar world, and all i am going to do is smith, not be a computer wiz. Nobody wants to read what i type anyway.
   danny arnold - Monday, 04/11/11 14:54:34 EDT

Computer Courses, E-mail and Viruses :

Moved to FAQs Email and Computer Viruses, Learning to be a Cyber Citizen

   - guru - Monday, 04/11/11 21:33:18 EDT

Stupid things to do when you have nothing better to do : I welded up a "roll cage" for my cell phone (Casio model G'Zone Rock; water resistant, impact resistant, built to military specs) and subjected it to serious abuse. check this clip where I throw it from my car travelling at 30 mph.

   - Nippulini - Tuesday, 04/12/11 11:16:28 EDT

Awl Bidness : Thomas, petroleum geology remains a good field in Houston.
   quenchcrack - Tuesday, 04/12/11 13:35:51 EDT

Phone video : It could stand some editing. . . a second camera angle. . . special effects, slow motion and sound effects! ;o)
   - guru - Tuesday, 04/12/11 13:52:21 EDT

NEW anvils : This question is for my personal future reference... I'm new to smithing, I have a nice used PW anvil and I have a great forge from diamond back. The other day I was looking at brand new anvils online, I looked at nimba anvils and I also looked at some anvils on a website called old world anvils.
I would just like some feed back on new modern anvils, any comments or thoughts welcome. I want to start my own buisness one day. I currently do custom ornamental iron, so I plan to make custom forging a part of my every day life!
   Mario Rodriquez - Tuesday, 04/12/11 15:53:46 EDT

Anvils : Mario, There are a lot of opinions as to what makes the "best" anvil. Included in those opinions are types of construction that are no longer made. That includes soft bodies with a forge welded steel top plate (like your PW) and cast bodies with a steel top plate (Fisher). These are considered by many to be among the best anvils ever made.

A lot of people swear by Fisher anvils because they are quiet. The other brands made by the same method are junk anvils because the top plates are too thin and the welds were often bad.

The best modern anvils are the Forged Peddinghaus. They are made the same way as the late Hay-Buddens and a couple other classics. They have a tool steel upper body and mild steel base.

These are followed by the better cast steel anvils, Nimba and Rat Hole Forge. These are both expensive cast anvils that are machined and hand finished.

Next are the heat treated ductile iron anvils by TFS and NC. These are closely followed by the imported Czech anvils sold as EuroAnvils and Old World anvils. These are OK in material but are poorly finished. You get what you pay for.

Among the imports there is a Peddinghaus look alike that is called a "Peddinghaus" anvil in Europe. It is NOT. It is a cast anvil of various parentage (which ever foundry is available, shop and which agent).

There are other U.S. made anvils for farriers but these are not forging shop anvils. There are also a few other European anvils but they are not readily available here.

Then there are the junk anvils largely sold on ebay and by "wholesale" tool dealers. Note than NONE of the large import tool stores sell a quality anvil.

THEN if you are looking for REALLY classy anvils made when anvils were the cornerstone of industry then check out those on our Tailgate Sales page. They are not new but they will never be made like this again.

Most blacksmith shops end up with more than one anvil. I once sold all my anvils less than 200 pounds and then immediately regretted it because those were the portable size anvils. . .


While many folks put all their emphasis on an anvil you may find that more hours are spent working at the vise than the anvil. Every bench needs one, and sizes range from 10" jaw anvils weighing hundreds of pounds down to little 2" jaw anvils weighing a pound or less. Big high quality vises are no longer made. Big chipping vises (similar to a machinists vise but without a rotating base) are rare shop items. Same for the larger blacksmiths leg vises. These are still made in smaller sizes which are generally more useful than the larger vises due to having a faster action. I've got a dozen vises and would rather part with the anvils than the vises.
   - guru - Tuesday, 04/12/11 17:10:53 EDT

Note that, like anvils, it's really handy to have both large and small vises to hand.

In my forging cell I have a 6" and a 4" mounted to separate benches with another 4" mounted to the opposite side of the big bench and had a 6" one mounted out in the new dirty forge shop before I had the coal forge rigged up out there. Ifn I get my druthers I will have around 10 post vises mounted for use in my 20x60' shop and at least two "portable" ones for my demo equipment. (and also a machinist vise in the "clean" part of the shop.)

   Thomas P - Tuesday, 04/12/11 18:36:22 EDT

Vises : While blacksmith leg vises are THE vise of choice for forge work other styles of vise are handy for other purposes.

For much benchwork I prefer my big old 6" Prentiss chipping vise. As I mentioned above, a chipping vise is a heavy duty version of a machinists vise that doesn't rotate. They also have a heavier slide arm than other vises. The slide arm on a 6" Prentiss is 2" wide and 4" tall. The side is very long and is fully engaged when the jaws are open over 12". Chipping vises were designed for holding heavy castings while the machinist worked on them with a cold chisel as was typical before every shop had a milling machine.

6 inch Columbian Vise
For some odd shape work and the occasional pipe a machinists vise with pipe jaws is handy. The big old 6" Columbian to the left has pipe jaw inserts. While this is a very heavy made vise the rotation feature is nearly impossible to lock tight enough to stay put.

This was the only vise in a factory maintenance blacksmith shop. The shop had a big Buffalo forge, cone mandrel, 18" swage block and a 50 pound Little Giant, heat treating furance and other assorted tooling.
   - guru - Tuesday, 04/12/11 23:34:17 EDT

Has anyone ever tried . . . : We have three post vices in the Sutter's Mill shop and we have finally gotten tired of metal slipping in them. The gripping pads are almost smooth, but show enough that all three had a diamond pattern in the surface.

Has anyone ever tried to refurbish/replace that diamond gripping surface? Is it easier to just cough up the bread for new post vices?

Glorious weather in the People's Republic.
   - Rudy - Wednesday, 04/13/11 01:02:07 EDT

Vise Teeth : Rudy, All my leg vises have smooth jaws and IF they had teeth I would grind them off. All my chipping vises have the teeth worn flat enough that they don't mar the work and THAT makes me happy. I would never consider replacing vise jaws unless they were broken or so misshapened they could not clamp. And even then I would probably just clean up rough or misshapened jaws with a grinder.

Note that leg vise jaws are forge welded strips of steel that are hardened.

Leg vises came with very fine chiseled teeth that rapidly wore off. This is good because teeth tear up work and are REALLY bad on hot work. If you are doing heavy enough cold work in a leg vise that it slips then you should probably be using a bigger vise or a different work holding method.

Work slipping can have causes other than lack of teeth or being too heavy of work. Due to the jaws of leg vises being hinged the faces of the jaws are only parallel at ONE opening. This is usually at about 1/2". Closer than that and the upper edges of the jaws are closer together than the rest. The greater the opening the farther apart the top edge. IF the vise's jaws are not parallel at the nominal work holding distance of 1/2" (12-13mm) then they are probably not holding any size work at all.

You can also make toothed jaw covers (just like the soft or smooth strap on covers.

If you are chiseling on a piece and it rotates in the jaws there is a simple tool for that. Its called a "carving block". This is a triangle of steel attached to a piece of angle iron OR flat bar. The triangle rests on top of the jaws and when work is clamped it holds the tool in place since it is in front of one of the jaws. When work is chiseled or hammered it rests against the triangular block and cannot rotate. This is a modern invention as I have not seen it in any of the old books. You can buy one of these from Blacksmiths Depot OR make your own.

Work also slips due to the vise not being clamped tight enough. This is usually due to dirt, grit and or lack of lubrication of the nut, screw and thrust surfaces.

Years ago I traded for a huge leg vise (the biggest they made - about 200 pounds) that had some damage and parts missing. I did not look at the vise closely. . . Someone had torched out the original jaws and scabbed in a pair of heavily toothed modern replacement vise jaws. The torch job was rough and not straight and the welding very poor. There were gaps under the jaws big enough to get several fingers into. . . and the jaws did not line up. I studied the thing for quite a while and decided that I did not want to repair it. I COULD have done it, cut out the bad jaws, built up the gaps, ground everything flat, fitted more replacement jaws, welded them in and dressed the whole to look original. But the vise also needed replacement bench bracket parts and a spring. . . I decided it was not worth the effort as similar size vises in good condition were available for a couple hundred dollars. I traded it back to the fellow I got it from.

The point of this story is that some idiot ruined a beautiful old tool but trying to "repair" it. The jaws need to be smooth for blacksmithing. If you want to use a vise for heavy work with teeth that bite into the work find an old chipping vise and repair or replace the jaws on IT.
   - guru - Wednesday, 04/13/11 02:27:05 EDT

I make vise jaw covers from mild steel angle, 1-1/2". On certain covers I weld a U shaped piece of steel to the ends for spring action to keep them from falling off.
   - Nippulini - Wednesday, 04/13/11 08:20:16 EDT

Vise Jaw Covers and Attachments : Traditional soft jaw covers were made of copper or brass. Most I have seen were hand made but production manufactured covers have been available. BlacksmithsDepot sells aluminium soft jaw covers.

I own and have seen numerous vises that had been drilled and taped to hold jaw covers in place. Some have tabs that bend around the jaws to secure them and others have springs such as Nippullini mentioned above. Many just laid on the jaws.

Besides soft jaw covers there are various vise jaw tools and attachments that one can make or purchase as mentioned above. Two mentioned so far are soft jaw covers and a chiseling block. Another that helps grip short or vertical work tighter is vise jaw spacers. These are pieces of steel various thicknesses to match the work. They have a cross piece welded to the top that lets them sit on the vise while not clamped. They help keep from twisting the vise jaws and allow tighter squarer clamping. Blacksmiths Depot sells these in a set.

Then there are spring loaded upsetting or heading clamps that can be made to fit a vise. Along this line V jaws could be made to grip rounds tighter and with less damage. To take force parallel to the jaws they need to hook under the jaws as well as rest on top (that is have a C channel shape. These can be forged and weld fabricated or made from solid.

Other vise tooling includes bending jigs and anything you make to be clamped in a vise rather than bolted down. I make a lot of tooling on heavy angle iron so it can be quickly clamped in a vise for use then put away when done. Those bigger vises come in handy for this type thing.

In the Machine Shop we have sacrificial aluminum soft jaws in the milling machine vise and on some of the lathe chucks. For precision clamping both get dressed in place as needed. You take off as little as possible so that the jaws last longer. Steps are commonly machined for holding short work parallel in two directions. Pockets and V's are also machined as needed. Steps, pockets and V's shorten the life of soft jaw faces which are usually shop made, thus expensive and a pain to replace.

The same techniques can and are applied to other vises of various sizes and types. The reason more of this tooling is not commonly available is that vises come in a tremendous variety of sizes and jaw proportions. There are no standards. Several times we have mentioned 4" or 6" vises but blacksmiths leg vises came in 5 and 10 pound weight increments, each or every other size having proportionately different jaw widths. Thus there are 5", 5.25", 5.5", 5.75". . . in ONE manufacturer's line alone. Others came in increments that fell on eighths and smaller bench vises ( the old hand made ones) came in smaller weight/size increments.

While most of us do not have a "set" of tooling to use with a vise (or every vise) it should probably be considered no different than setting up tooling for anything else. Everyone knows that each anvil should have a hardy and bending fork to fit as a minimum and we could apply the same to every vise. When we bring a machine like a drill press or milling machine into the shop it is not very useful or complete without furniture. The same could be said for the vise.

   - guru - Wednesday, 04/13/11 09:19:25 EDT

freeing rusty post vice : I put out the word that I needed a post vise and a buddy found one at the bottom of a pile of "good junk" stored outside on the ground.I wonder how much Damage I can do using a rosebud to heat things up to get them loose. The screw fortunately was greased enough to stay free.
   wayne@ nb - Wednesday, 04/13/11 09:33:07 EDT

Heat and Leg Vises :
Wayne, the main thing to be careful about is the nut or "box". On very old English and European vises this is a brazed together assembly. The screw threads are a coil of square stock brazed inside a tube and the thrust surface and body of the nut are also parts that are often brazed to the tube. . . So heat could be a disaster.

The rest of the vise is forge welded and the majority wrought or mild steel. The only hardened parts are the jaw faces. Heating to a red to reduce the rust and free the pivot will not hurt a thing. This is often the least damaging method of freeing severely rusted parts.

Heating rusted parts to a red heat converts the large hydrous (water bearing) iron iron oxide molecules to smaller anhydrous (without water) molecules. The bound water in the rust is what makes parts lock together. I often oil quench heated parts after they cool considerably. The combination of reducing the rust and oiling hot often frees parts such as studs that normally break off before comming apart.
   - guru - Wednesday, 04/13/11 11:37:55 EDT

Other rust freeing methods :
Time and penetrating oils work wonders. I prefer WD-40 due to it being non-acidic. However, some of the more active rust breakers like "Blaster" and Liquid Wrench work better. Just DO NOT use them for rust prevention. While the active ingredients break down rust in one case they cause it in others. . .

Vibration or shock such as from an impact wrench does wonders. Many small non-damaging blows will often free a part where heavy blows may break or damage the part and still not free it. Where impact wrenches are not available or not applicable you can do the same with a small hammer. Hit more times, not harder.

The combination of penetrating oil, time and light blows will often do the job without damaging the part. Oil it, tap it, oil it. If the part moves oil it then try to move it back. Small back and forth motions help work oil into the joint. I'll often oil and work on a part then let it sit for a week before trying again. Usually the second attempt works.

   - guru - Wednesday, 04/13/11 11:49:06 EDT

International Tailgate Sales :
Since launching the Tailgate Sales page less than a week ago there have been multiple visits from people in (the US of course), Canada, Australia, Great Britain, Sweden, France, Russia, Germany, Italy, Brazil, Spain, Poland, Netherlands. Mexico, Bulgaria, Philippines, Slovakia, Finland, Israel, Serbia, Venezuela, Romania, Norway, New Zealand, Latavia, Iceland, Argentina and Panama.

Google has also already picked up the pages. However, the listings are new and it will take a while. 99% of the above traffic was from regular visitors to anvilfire.
   - guru - Wednesday, 04/13/11 12:22:19 EDT

Ahh if the screw is Free already the only other moving part is the leg bearing. I'd pop that out using a sledge and a brass rod and disassemble the vise making it easy to clean up with a wire brush on an angle grinder...

I make my own vice spacers no welding needed! take a 2" piece of the common sized stock you work and saw or hot cut a slot down the axis about 3/4". Then heat and fold the tabs over and conform them to your vise top---use a hammer! I like to punch the size of the stock on the top of the tabs too as some folks in my shop can't tell size by looking.

For the real small stuff, say 1/4" or 1/8" I take a bit more stock and heat it up and wrap a spiral around the top.

Nice project for when you want to do something but can't get involved in a big project.

   Thomas P - Wednesday, 04/13/11 13:13:26 EDT

Splitting the vise spacers is a good idea. I wouldn't need size markings either but it is the kind of thing that tells others "this is a tool", not scrap. . .

The vise spacers are like a lot of things where you need various size stock to make a set. So you need to be attentive to when you have new stock sizes in house. OR you can make the necessary size stock but that is a pain if you are looking for a quick project.

I had great sets of 2" square spacers I kept in the welding shop for blocking up and clamping work. I had four sets I had collected over time that ran 1/16", 1/8", 3/16", 1/4" (2), 3/8", 1/2" (2) and 3/4". Over a period of a year while others were using the shop and I was not there most of them disappeared into making other things. . . The machinists filching my spacers should have known better. . .

I keep similar sets of spacers as drill press furniture to put under clamps. These are also 2" square but have a hole drilled in the center. You don't need every size doing stack ups because you can always use two to make values you don't have (3/16" + 1/4" for 7/16"). For clamping +/- 1/16" is good enough but if you need better then add a 1/32" or .010" shim. To collect this variety in 2" widths I had hot roll, cold finish, stainless and brass spacers.

Its often the little things like this that you do in down time that makes a shop more efficient.
   - guru - Wednesday, 04/13/11 13:56:02 EDT

Tailgate Link Errors. . . : Josh made some changes to his anvil site using a site builder. . . It converted his pages from HTML to PHP without notice. . . You get what you pay for. I've fixed the links.
   - guru - Wednesday, 04/13/11 14:56:04 EDT

need a ride : i am trying to go to touchstone this weekend from mo'town i do not have a computer... please call Paul @ 304-292-3374 rm # 11 thank you
   - paul - Wednesday, 04/13/11 17:13:47 EDT

vice spacers? : I really dont know what you mean by this term
   wayne@ nb - Wednesday, 04/13/11 17:14:05 EDT

Penetrating Oils:

I've tried all the proprietary ones on the market and none of them come close in effectiveness to my homebrew penetrant. I mix automatic transmission fluid (ATF) and acetone 50/50. It gets into places the others can't and is non-acidic and has good lubrication properties. It is also way cheaper! You just have to keep it in a metal pump can so it doesn't evaporate or trash plastic pump seals.

I'm sorry I can't recall who it was who first told me about this stuff or I'd give credit where credit is due. The stuff works miracles.
   - Rich - Wednesday, 04/13/11 18:26:55 EDT

i wish to make an induction forge out of a bug zapper. of course, I know I have to get a dryer cord to plug it in to 220 but thats not a problem, I got a buck knife and duct tape. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
   danny arnold - Wednesday, 04/13/11 18:30:40 EDT

Reed Hydraulic Vise Locking Base :
Reed Hydraulic Vise Locking Base from Grant Sarver

Grant Sarver sent us this photo of his Reed Hydraulic Vise locking ring. It has teeth in it on a 45 degree slope. Grant says that when when locked, it STAYS locked!
It has a foot pump and foot release, both hands free! It makes a pretty good press too. It'll absolutely crush a two by four! You know; those splintering sounds! I just love the power AND "feel".

My big Columbian shown several posts above just has the typical T-slot with smooth surfaces. It locks OK but don't try to bend anything tangent to the base. Its little details like this that make the difference between a tool that is merely a good tool, and a tool that is a GREAT tool. The cost difference to manufacturer is infinitesimal. Note that the last catalog I saw a price for the Columbian (20 years ago) it was about $1800. That's just the vise, no stand.
   - guru - Wednesday, 04/13/11 18:39:56 EDT

Vise Spacers :
Wayne, I think I explained these a few posts back . .

Imagine having a bunch of pieces of square steel bar in sizes from about 1/4" up to 1", and about 3" long. Each has a cross bar welded to the top or forged from the bar. The cross bar rests on the top of your vise jaws with the spacer dangling between the jaws. This is placed opposite the side where you are clamping work the thickness of the spacer.

When you clamp down on a leg vise with work in one side it twists the jaws and puts sideways force on the pivot. You can damage the vise this way. By using a spacer on the side opposite the work the jaws stay parallel, grip better and you don't hurt the vise.

Look on the Blacksamiths Depot page, bottom of the menu "Vise Accessories", at the bottom of the page. (or type "vise spacer set" into the search box on the site OR google.)
   - guru - Wednesday, 04/13/11 18:54:01 EDT

Always hard to get the size perspective on these pictures. That ring is 10" diameter. The vise has 6" jaws and opens 10". The "hydraulic" part is a tank/foot pump/foot release on a 1/4" hose. Squeeze a two by four and listen to it snap/crackle/pop! Must have 5 ton of squeeze, works well as a press too.
   - grant - nakedanvil - Wednesday, 04/13/11 18:55:11 EDT

At the valve shop we used air vises. These were used in the assembly shop for valve assembly. These came in 2 sizes with the bigger having a 10" cylinder. Spring to open air to clamp. We also use 8" versions. These were set up to adjust with a screw just like a regular chipping vise, but you set them to open about a 1/4". Set the valve body in the jaws, step on the treadle and you could run down a union bonnet nut to 1000 foot pounds, and the assembly would not budge. The maker went bust, and another company bought the rights. Every single one of the new companies casting broke with in a week of first use.
For clamping the really big stuff, say valves that weighed about 600# and up, and the ones with the union bonnets that took up to 3600 footpounds were assembled in old 24" 2 jaw lathe chucks set up verticall on stands when I started. Those poor guys would get two guys to twist a chuck key and when that huge 2" square drive impact went to work the valves would often still move and sometimes pop out onto the floor.
One of my fiorst tasks was to buy and install a hydraulic torquer with a hydraulic chuck. Worked sweet.
I ended up putting hydraulic vises on nearly every high production assembly application, as well as hydraulic torquers. The noise went way down, the cost of torquer repairs dropped way way down, and the repeatability of the torque went to six sigma levels.
   ptree - Wednesday, 04/13/11 20:24:52 EDT

Vise Quality : Back when big vises were a critical tool in industry every maker competed to see who could make the best most durable tool. The best ductile iron and steel parts were used. They were made heavy for durability. Patents abounded. Manufacturers merged and changed hands. Like anvils they were sold in a variety of quality levels.

Ridge Tool Company (Ridgid Brand) bought Peddinghaus Anvils because of the forged vise manufacturing. At the time they did not want the anvil production and a few years ago when dies needed to be replaced they stopped anvil production. When they restarted it was with a reduced line. The reason we can still get forged Peddinghaus anvils is the vise line. . . There are still folks that want top of the line tools ..
   - guru - Wednesday, 04/13/11 21:56:22 EDT

Danny Arnold : All You need is a bridge rectifier, some capacitors, a bank of power transisters, a frequency generator and a step down transformwer.

If You can make these parts from the guts of a bug zapper, You are way ahead of McGiver.
   - Dave Boyer - Wednesday, 04/13/11 22:28:07 EDT

Vises : I have a 50's era 4 1/2" Craftsman bench vise that has a toothed swivel base like Grant's picture. It stays put. This vise has a spring loaded plunger that keeps the handle from falling, resolving the pinched finger issue. It's not a perfect vise, but it is pretty good.

There was an 8" swivel vise on one of the benches in the plant. The diamonds on the jaw faces were a good 1/4" on the side, and really pointy. This vise was so big, clumsy & high above the bench [due to it's size and My being short] that it was never used much. The pointy diamonds on the jaws woud gouge up work terribly. If mounted lower, I prefer the jaw tops to be about elbow hight, and the jaws ground off some, it would have been a better shop tool.

In general, I feel that these old well made bench vises HOLD work better than a post vise, due to the jaws being and staying closer to paralell.

For heavy hammering the post vise is better configured to take the force, and made of a malliable material, so it does have it's place in the shop, especially a blacksmith shop.
   - Dave Boyer - Wednesday, 04/13/11 22:43:50 EDT

Duct Tape. . . : Dave, you forgot duct tape to hold it all together.

I've built semi automated controls on a number of machines. Several with all clutches and relays but the majority programmable controlers with counters and numerical input. Panels covered with switches. . . Had big paired NEMA contactors for dual logic motor reversing. But about the fanciest electronics was building DC power supplies with surge suppressors so the clutches wouldn't kill the diodes. A big bridge rectifier, an RC circuit and mounting the components. I also ganged up small transformers for higher capacity in a slim rectangular package to fit the machine. Just lots of componenets, lots of wire and lots of logic. . . But no true "electronics". The closest thing to that was the last job where I had to gang up some resistors to get a very specific resistance to calibrate a digital input to a micro controller. Had to research that one.

Give me a year to study and spend any extra money I had on bits and pieces, I might be able to build a heater to melt a thimble full of metal. . . But I was never into the math.

If you really want to build your own induction heater there is a whole group of experimenters on YouTube. But these are serious geeks who would send anyone that isn't technically serious packing. .
   - guru - Wednesday, 04/13/11 23:33:27 EDT

Interesting Anvil : Here is an interesting little anvil.
Anyone know anything about it?

ebay 270735530219
   - Tom H - Wednesday, 04/13/11 23:34:13 EDT

Tom, it looks like an European antique. I've never seen one quite like it. But there is infinite variation from anvils of the apparent period.

The smith using the anvil looks vaguely familiar but 1973 was a long time ago. The photographer is still alive but contact is through agents. Below is the location of the event. It is still being held.

44th Annual Decorah Nordic Fest
July 23-24, 2010
Vesterheim Museum
At 520 W. Water St.
Decorah, Iowa 52101
   - guru - Thursday, 04/14/11 01:23:32 EDT

Jock - Induction Heater : I would have to hit the books to select the proper components too.

It would be much easier and probably cheaper to just buy one from Grant.
   - Dave Boyer - Thursday, 04/14/11 02:28:37 EDT

Dave, its not just selecting the components, its designing and making your own digital control circuitry, high capacity high frequency unit and specialty transformers. . .
   - guru - Thursday, 04/14/11 08:50:54 EDT

well you see i got all this forklift fork material i need to melt down and make anvuls that i thaut a buginduction would work
   danny arnold - Thursday, 04/14/11 09:37:13 EDT

Well. . those big Louisiana bayou big zappers might have the power.
   - guru - Thursday, 04/14/11 11:29:17 EDT

To bring it to a serious note, i have made a set of large crucible tongs to satisfy a local foundry's specs. it would be feasible to melt this forklift tine steel and cast a "perfect anvil" something with hay bud feet a mousehole waist and underhorn wide as a kolswa with two waterjet cut 1" hardy holes in a yard and half face with a 4" step what would we have for all that effort? something too soft? an A.S.O.
   danny arnold - Thursday, 04/14/11 12:23:02 EDT

Using jackhammer bit steel : Junkyard Steel cites Machinery's Handbook for info on unknown steels. Jackhammer bits are listed in my 1943 edition (year of my birth!) as 65 to 75 points of carbon.

Do the currently available bits likely still have the same carbon content? Would I expect there are other alloy agents added for toughness and wear resistance?

I need to make a spacer ring for a fly press I am refurbishing to fill the gap resulting form machining off the fractured ends of the screws’ threads. Would a thick washer turned from the bolster part of a bit be a good steel choice; tough, wear resistant, and not too hard. I'm also thinking of adding a brass 0.005 shim stock washer for a replaceable wear surface between the new spacer ring and the sliding block (that would be called the ram?).

I'll experiment with the heat treating quench as recommended by the article on Junkyard Steels, then plan to temper at 500F.

Comments or suggestions welcome.
   Bob Johnson - Thursday, 04/14/11 12:56:57 EDT

Cast Anvil : Melting and recasting steel does not necessarily result in the same material. Also, casting alloys are often different than rolling or forging alloys. While some are the same or similar, many do not cast well. When foundries melt scrap they do a chemical analysis and adjust the melt with additions as needed.

Other things to note is that if you want to make a 100 pound casting you need to melt 140 to 200 pounds of metal to make the casting. The extra goes to the sprue, risers and some waste.

Also note that most foundries do not cast heavy sections like an anvil. They may cast parts that are hundreds of pounds but without the thick sections. Casting thick sections is a different art than normal castings. It requires different sand and different risers. I've had foundries that could cast big mill gears and pump cases that weighed hundreds of pounds that could not cast a 4" thick 45 pound swage block successfully.

Cast anvils need to be machined but there is no need to cut a hardy hole. It is much more efficient to cast the hole. Due to their small size pritichel holes are drilled.

Then there is the heat treat. . .

I consider making the pattern, especially a one-off wood pattern an easy task. But from the dozens of VERY ugly poorly designed anvils currently on the market the professional patternmakers apparently don't have the skills. . .

There is a fine line between the results being an ASO or a decent anvil. But the difference between a decent anvil and a great one is in the fine details.
   - guru - Thursday, 04/14/11 13:06:27 EDT

Rusty stuck parts : Don't forget Blaster spray and then using a $15 air impact hammer with a blunt pointed tooling, worked for me.
   Carver Jake - Thursday, 04/14/11 13:07:14 EDT

Flypress Parts : Bob, most of the parts of these presses are mild steel and cast iron.

Grant Sarver may have some input on bit steel.

But I know bit steel can be very hard. I would not try machining it. Annealing such steel to make it machinable can cost more than purchasing an appropriate piece of new steel.

A thrust washer is best made thicker. Shim thickness can get twisted and torn, creep into fits. In this application a steel washer would do best. Hard steel on steel has a lower coefficient of friction than brass on steel. Lubrication is important.

The fact that the ends of the threads were doing the pushing sounds like something was put together wrong. I have not had one of these apart but I would expect the end of the screw to be pushing against a thrust bearing in the ram.
   - guru - Thursday, 04/14/11 13:28:30 EDT

Fly Press Parts : Guru, thank you for the info. Actually, the press has several parts involved. I'll forget the brass shims and go with the steel ring only. My machinist friend made me the first spacer ring, but it would not harden at all. He thought it was 4140. I'll supply the material for the next one as I am doing the heat treating and a test sample worked well.
I could PM a few before and after photos on the parts if you are interested?
   Bob Johnson - Thursday, 04/14/11 17:58:09 EDT

Jock said, "...I might be able to build a heater to melt a thimble full of metal. . ."

You don't have to go to the trouble, Jock. A household 1000 watt microwave will do it with the right crucible and metal. A few guys have been experimenting with this already and worked it out pretty well.

Sally refused to let me try it with our micro...go figure.
   - Rich - Thursday, 04/14/11 18:53:36 EDT

There were instructions many years ago about using a microwave as a forge. . . They were not posted very long. . .

Bob, love to see the mystery parts.
   - guru - Thursday, 04/14/11 19:18:35 EDT

Well, the good news is that for a large charge like that you don't need or want very high frequency. Even 60Hz is enough. You do need around 60 KW, or 300 amp @ 220. The heating coil would be around 300 - 400 pounds of very heavy wall square copper tubing, water-cooled. All this would be powered by a 60KW water-cooled transformer. Then we get to the switching and control system. 100 Kw would be better.

That must be a heck of a bug-zapper!
   - grant - nakedanvil - Thursday, 04/14/11 20:23:38 EDT

Grant, don't forget that the Bugzapper indoctoheater will be in Cajun country. HOT! so figure a really really big cooling tower to cool the 100KW heater. Oh, and maybe add in the feed run from the local electric folks, plus the transformer to drop 13,600 volt to usable 460 and the switchgear. :)
   ptree - Thursday, 04/14/11 20:57:43 EDT

Last 100Kw induction heater, with coils cost about $2.50 a watt, less cooling tower and install. But that was 6 years ago, and I did not have a bugzapper to start with:)
   ptree - Thursday, 04/14/11 20:59:30 EDT

Gee Jeff, you shoulda gone solar! (grin)
   - Rich - Thursday, 04/14/11 21:12:40 EDT

Bigger Induction Units. : I had some old literature from Hobart Welders showing a 400Hz engine driven induction heating unit for pre & post heating pipeline weld areas, but can't find it now.

I got some stuff from an old brass foundry. There was a huge old motor generator to power the induction melter, but I don't know the frequency.

In the pre solid state era, a motor generator was about the only way to generate high frequency at really high amperage.

The components I mentioned in the post to Danny would give You a variable frequency inverter power supply to feed the primary of a step down transformer. While this would WORK, there are a lot of details that I don't know that would make one that works WELL.
   - Dave Boyer - Thursday, 04/14/11 21:13:07 EDT

Some melters use a crucible (graphite) that is a susceptor, that is the crucible is heated by the induction and melts the charge by radiation and conduction. Direct heat uses the much lower frequency I mentioned. Anything from 60 to 1000 Hz will do the job.
   - grant - nakedanvil - Thursday, 04/14/11 22:15:35 EDT

Hey Jock! Can I have a color? Please?
   - grant - nakedanvil - Thursday, 04/14/11 22:16:25 EDT

Color : Yeah, I had a silver color at one time, but it got lost.
   Frank Turley - Thursday, 04/14/11 23:15:28 EDT

Colors : Given that you use the handle "nakedanvil" Grant, I suppose you want "flesh" color? (grin)
   - Rich - Thursday, 04/14/11 23:29:26 EDT

Frank, You have to log in once in a while. . .

I'm looking at colors. While the rainbow is infinite, the colors with enough color to be recognizable are few. Working on it.

Don't forget resistance and arc melting.
   - guru - Friday, 04/15/11 00:18:51 EDT

Resistance is futile! I don't know about arc. =)

Input =/> output. Just think of the power you have to put into a short-circuited 1/8" welding rod to get it to heat red hot. And that's pretty efficient!
   - grant - nakedanvil - Friday, 04/15/11 00:49:59 EDT

Rich: There has been a lot of controversy over using the term "flesh" as one color. Means different things to different races.
   - grant - nakedanvil - Friday, 04/15/11 00:52:58 EDT

Resistance Heating : We had an operation at the auto frame plant called the "hot upset". There was a steel bushing inserted into the outboard ends of the Ford Twin "I" Beam suspension links that was like a short fat rivet. Going from meory, it was about 1 1/2" in diameter on the body. To upset the head on the other end, it was placed in the part and put in a hydraulic press that was attached to a HUGE high amperage power supply. The press would close on the bushing, and there were copper alloy dies in the press connected to the power supply. In a few seconds the bushing would be red hot, and the pressure from the press formed a head on the one end and formed the other to shape. This bushing later had a hole drilled & bored in it for the upper ball joint attachment.
   - Dave Boyer - Friday, 04/15/11 01:06:43 EDT

Flesh : True, Grant. I suppose I was being politically incorrect in using that term, though "flesh" more properly refers to the meat underlying the skin. In that usage all human flesh is the same color.
   - Rich - Friday, 04/15/11 04:04:17 EDT

Eww... you said "meat". So Nakedanvil should be red? This isn't Crayola (who DID get sued for the use of "flesh" and "skin tone" crayons). As a wise man once told me "they're all pink inside"
   - Nippulini - Friday, 04/15/11 08:42:24 EDT

Resistance Heating : I've got a short video of armature bars for the last Statue of Liberty restoration. The bar, about 3/4" x 3 and about five feet long had two big spring loaded "ground" clamps attached, the operator presses on a pedal switch and in about 2-3 seconds the entire bar was at a bright yellow heat!

I've also seen in an old catalog somewhere a resistance rivet heater. Worked sort of like the machine Dave Boyer described but was not making the upset. The operator held the rivet in tongs between two copper electrodes, pressed a pedal that clamped the electrodes to the ends of the rivet and in the time you can say NMNMNMNNMNMgg. . . a hot 3/4" rivet!

Last but not least was the Lagrange-Hoho Water Pail Forge
   - guru - Friday, 04/15/11 09:12:47 EDT

Flesh Colors :
While teaching an elementary school art class we got into a discussion about flesh colors while doing portraits. The lighter the skin the harder it is to recreate. "Pink" skin has very subtle shades of yellow where the bone is close to the surface and blue where the veins are as well as a translucency. As skin becomes darker there are still subtle differences but the translucency that lets light through is less and the underlying structure becomes less of a factor.

In this case I had the kids randomly paired up drawing each other and coloring with crayons. Those drawing the white kids had a more difficult task. The kids had a lot of fun.

Yes, I remember the Crayola "Flesh" crayons. It was a terrible useless light pinkish orange and a waste of wax. Very insensitive and non PC as well.
   - guru - Friday, 04/15/11 09:27:21 EDT

Thanks gang for giving me some advise on the bugzap induction forge, as usual "if it aint easy, it aint did" applies we will let the fork lift tines stay in their present shape- 6"x 3" one pc 36" and one with a tapered end 80" long and for sale
   danny arnold - Friday, 04/15/11 11:00:52 EDT

Anvil date of MFR? : Hello,
I am pretty excited today as I have just come home with my first Anvil. It is a Trenton that weighs about 115 lbs. On the front it has stamped to the left "Z 112" and further to the right it has stamped "A 38131". The bottom is an hour glass depression rather than oval.
I am a welder of 32 years (Rig welder in pipe), a registered gunsmith and hobbyiest machinist (have small steel lathe). I want to get into this as a hobby as I am nearing the "slow down " stage in my life.(I'll retire when they pull the stinger out of my cold dead fingers) I think this will be great fun and a pleasant diversion to the norm. My Email address is morriswelding@sasktel.net if anyone has information about this anvil. Thanks so much!... Jim
   Jim morris - Friday, 04/15/11 13:44:04 EDT

What part of the easy to draw province are you in Jim?
There is an active group in the Lloyd area, and a group in S'toon as well.
   JimG - Friday, 04/15/11 16:49:59 EDT

Flesh Colors : Also depends on how old the flesh is and if it still has blood flowing inside. Am I still green?
   quenchcrack - Friday, 04/15/11 17:42:16 EDT

Still Green. Frog Flesh, I guess. Ribbit.
   - quenchcrack - Friday, 04/15/11 17:43:18 EDT

Some people, not being blacksmiths, have never seen what color it is under their skin!
   Grant - Nakedanvil - Friday, 04/15/11 18:28:47 EDT

Rich, a solar powered induction heater would be great for heading straight pins, perhaps that can be the new hat for SOFA.
We had a motor generator TOCCO crankshaft heater from the 40's at VOGT. We used it to heat treat needle point stems for needle valves, and not very well to melt Stellite 6 into valve bodies. This unit was far too high a freq for heating the thick steel valve bodies, and worked mostly from skin effect. You had to tune the motor generator set by adding or removing big capacitors under the unit to balance the circuit.I "bought" in that I helped spec, and did the runoff for acceptance a multistation induction welder to weld Stellite 6 powder into valve bodies to make the intergral seats. This was a solid state American Induction heating transfer machine and worked a treat. LOUD! as it worked at 60 Hz and the powersupply screamed. I had to put a sound enclosure around the system.
The billet heaters at both Vogt and the axle shop were about 60 Hz since a billet heater wants a deep penetrating heat, not a skin effect from high freq that is good for surface hardening cam shafts.
   ptree - Friday, 04/15/11 19:14:08 EDT

BTW: commercial airplanes and a lot of military equipment use 400HZ rather 60HZ because induction equipment like motors and transformers can be made with a lot less iron and thus are smaller and lighter.
   Grant - Nakedanvil - Friday, 04/15/11 21:20:39 EDT


Thanks. I've always seen the 400HZ sign in the airplane lavatory outlets and wondered why. (I've also been tempted to bring my old alarm clock with the synchronous motor just to see what would happen . . .)
   - Mike BR - Friday, 04/15/11 21:49:01 EDT


Thanks. I've always seen the 400HZ sign in the airplane lavatory outlets and wondered why. (I've also been tempted to bring my old alarm clock with the synchronous motor just to see what would happen . . .)
   Mike BR - Friday, 04/15/11 21:49:49 EDT

Time would fly. .
   - guru - Friday, 04/15/11 22:37:23 EDT

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