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This is an archive of posts from April 16 - 21, 2012 on the Guru's Den
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Slick/flatter : I think I have asked this before but can't find an answer. What is the difference? Is the base of a slick slightly convex? Do they do essentially the same job- removing hammer marks from finished pieces?
   philip in china - Monday, 04/16/12 00:23:06 EDT

Flatter : Generally flatters are very flat with gently rounded edges. Brand new they are flat with sharp edges the amount of rounding up to the smith. Logically they would work faster with a slightly crowned face BUT the results would never be perfectly flat. . .
   - guru - Monday, 04/16/12 01:40:49 EDT

Slick : So what is a slick?
   philip in china - Monday, 04/16/12 02:44:37 EDT

Slick :
Phillip, the only tool I know of by this name is a large wood working chisel used two handed to strip bark off a log. But I am sure other trades (such as plaster and concrete work) have tools with a similar name.
   - guru - Monday, 04/16/12 03:52:27 EDT

Parking Sledges :
In every place I've been the sledges were either parked away from the anvil or at individual work stations. Strikers were generally Journeymen (who had their own tools) or advanced Apprentices. All had somewhere to park their tools and would bring them when called to strike. Parking them around the anvil on purpose is clutter on top of clutter and dangerous.

Striking in a busy shop does not start all at once. Strikers are not waiting to be called they have their own irons in the fire or other work going on. When the master called for strikers the first one to show up started striking as signaled as soon as he got there and then each striker in turn as they reached the work. Anyone trying to reach for a tool parked next to the anvil was likely to get struck in the head. You come to the anvil with hammer in hand.

There is a film on chain and anchor making showing the process. Workers come to job as they can and work their way in as they get there. Imagine being the last guy on a 15 man striking team trying to work your way in. . .

As to the accuracy of Diderots, it was an encyclopedia of tools and process where most of the illustrations have tools arranged for pictorial purposes. They are a form of industrial still life. Some are accurately drawn to scale, some are not. Some accurately depict the processes and some do not.

Such illustrations were done largely by memory based on rough sketches and committed to a metal plate by an engraver who's specialty was printing (not forging, milling, dying. . .). Diderot's engravers were some of the best but they were far from perfect.

The reference Thomas posted a link to at Die Hausbücher der Nürnberger Zwölfbrüderstiftungen has many wonderful illustrations. However, the artists were typical of the time with little or no education in perspective and most of the illustrations obviously done from memory. Almost everything has a stylized distortion and the media forces an austerity of line and detail. 200 years later Diderot's engravers were better trained and the art of drawing had advanced but many of the same issues of drawings from imagination and the introduction of style still affected the results.

Illustrations from memory are much different than those done from life. Every detail comes from the artist's imagination. Every element of the drawing has been filtered by the artist's experience and training. Many common items are drawn the same way over and over even though they may be different in real life. Combine this with imaginary settings designed to show multiple processes and a LOT of the content of those illustrations is purely from the artist's imagination.

I have no idea what Diderot's engraver's processes were. I'm sure many sketches and notes were made on the scene (from life). Many craftsmen were consulted as well as illustrations created by others. But in the end this all had to be put together by the engravers. Due to the great number of artists and engravers involved over a quarter century period there is a lot of variation in quality of the illustrations even though the engravers were trying to apply a uniform style.
   - guru - Monday, 04/16/12 03:59:33 EDT

Fifteen man striking team : You have seen fifteen men striking on one Anvil?You say Diderot just made up placing the hammer handle right at the Anvil?Hmmm...Methinks you need an actual objection to dismiss with such authority my notion.Of course I have scrutinized all the videos on U-tube,I have been on this problem for years,getting and studying these Anvils,using and getting to know 'em.Within this last year I have been privy and up close to 2 HUGE accumulations of old German Anvils that you have not seen,I am sure.Studied closely they do have the marks I refer to and which you have not responded against.These CW on Anvils were ubiquitous and plentiful,so no one thought to write down anything.Too obvious to need mention then and now meeting the resistance of inertia.Chainsaws,whatever.Your objections so far are lacking and I consider my hypothesis the best one until someone comes up with better.
   Generik Broderick - Monday, 04/16/12 09:48:14 EDT

anvil church windows : I had to read the posts several times but is the point trying to be made is that church windows in an anvil are there to safely put the handle of a hammer into so it is not protruding and thus be a danger?

I have been a part of a 4 man 8# hammer team and we ALWAYS took our hammer away from the anvil, the clutter (as mentioned above) was to be avoided!

Also, from my time swinging the hammer in a team, a "round house" swing would be very counter productive, sapping the energy of the striker needlessly. We swung the hammers with both hands on the handle and the rebound from the anvil caused the hammer to return to a vertical position with little energy on our part so that the hammer was already in the air and ready for the next swing, we could hammer for a long time without tiring needlessly.

I can not say that this method of swinging was what was done in the past but it sure was a whole lot more energy conserving than a round house swing.... those guys were not dim whited and I am sure that they may have thought of this themselves, or not, YMMV!
   Wayne Parris - Monday, 04/16/12 10:15:02 EDT

The first time you accidentally kicked that hammer leaning against the anvil and tripped, the apprentice who left it leaning there would be getting an earful.

No working shop would leave tools leaning up against an anvil.

For one thing, hammers were valuable and expensive enough, that there werent lots of extras to leave lying around.

I am pretty sure most church windows were BOTH decorative, and used for some upsetting. But I have seen some that were indented, as opposed to sticking out proud, and those were definitely just decoration. I have seen anvils with faces cast in the sides- those were decoration, pure and simple. Stylized church windows are often similar to faces- a sign of luxury, style, and quality of craftsmanship.
   - Ries - Monday, 04/16/12 12:02:57 EDT

Striking : I was taught to strike the European way and the recommended grip pretty much precludes any roundhouse swings, even if one were so inclined. As Wayne noted, those roundhouse swings are inefficient, to say nothing of being dangerous to yourself and fellow strikers. I haven't struck on a team of more than six strikers, but I've seen videos of striking teams with around a dozen strikers making big industrial parts - it's a really beautiful thing to see a large striking team working in such perfect unison.

I have to agree with others that I doubt the validity of the church window protecting a hammer handle concept. Counter productive to put that much work and resources into an anvil feature when you can simply tell the strikers to take their hammers away from the work area when not in use. My guess is that the church windows were for appearance's sake more than anything else - tool makers of the middle ages up to the industrial revolution were far more concerned with aesthetics than is popular now, sadly. Most modern tools have all the soul of a sash weight.
   Rich Waugh - Monday, 04/16/12 12:11:22 EDT

I found ONE illustration in the Grove 2 vol publication of Diderots with the sledge and anvil (one sledge). There are a half dozen more with strikers walking toward the work carrying their sledge. . . The majority of the anvils also do not have church windows or sloping edges . . . I'm sure there are more details in the full encyclopedia.

A majority of the French anvils in Diderots are featured in our Anvil Gallery from Maison de l'Otil collection and a couple other collections. The German anvils in the Josh Greenwood Gallery collection are the tip of the iceberg. I've seen, photographed many and used a few of these. I also have high res photos of many more but after a point the similarities make them too repetitive to add to the galleries.

The Chain and Anchor making video was filmed in the early teens or 1920's in a British shop. There is no anvil, the work is its own and the 15 strikers are working on ONE huge shackle pin (about a 4 to 5" shank). The fifteenth smith to get to the job had to wait three rounds before stepping in seamlessly. Note that the You-Tube copy of this video has some gaps in it during the striking. I used to have a copy of the original video conversion and you could count the 15 men. These guys were using an over head "roundhouse" swing but this was a big part with one chance to get it right.

There are other films of industrial striking such as the rail road shop films. You can see the men bringing their hammers to the work.

While these shops are 150 years later than Diderot their techniques of using man power are probably identical. The biggest technical difference is the wooden jib cranes in use in the 1700 and 1800's to handle heavy parts, bull ladles and so on. I've seen these in use and owned a shop with one. . . scary equipment.

Diderot has many mistakes in the forging section. Things like a single man holding a billet horizontally in unsupported tongs that my calculations show a weight of 500 to 800 pounds. . . Its just art.
   - guru - Monday, 04/16/12 12:23:28 EDT

I recently saw a striking demo by a fellow trained in the German tradition. His handle was about 2/3 length of a full sized handle and so not long enough to reach a CW from the floor and too long to reach it from the stump.

My personal theory was that they were put there as the manufacturers thought "that's what an Anvil was supposed to look like" at that time and place. Style does play a place in 19th century tools.
   Thomas P - Monday, 04/16/12 12:52:08 EDT

Tool Styles :
Styling is still important in tools. Sears used to spend a lot on sleek looking power tool design including colors and branding. But they spent more on art than on content. . . So I stopped buying from them. Pretty tools should also be GOOD tools. New Sears ratchet wrenches have artistic lines but are too heavy due to the "art". . . bad design. The old ones from the 70's had style with function.

On the other hand the machine tool industry went to that ugly rectangular look and has not gone back. . . The old stream lined designs were actually stronger and thus a better example of form follows function.
   - guru - Monday, 04/16/12 13:31:26 EDT

Roundhouse hammering : If you look in one of the Westinghouse videos they were using the roundhouse type swing. They were using a relatively light sledge with a long handle. I have tried using a roundhouse type swing on my own and have found it quite effective, while it was not as accurate as short swing there was much more power, I am sure with daily practice accuracy would come.

The late Charlie Sutton who apprenticed in the British Royal Navy working daily with a striker advocated using your thigh on the butt of your hammer handle to help lift the hammer. Using this technique I saw him strike much longer than people much younger than him.
   - JNewman - Monday, 04/16/12 15:32:24 EDT

Striking : Charlie also mentioned that all the anvils in the shop were knee height as this was a more effective height for the striker. The smith's hammer was not what was expected to do the work it was there more as a pointing tool.
   - JNewman - Monday, 04/16/12 15:35:41 EDT

Striking : THEN. . . there is that two handled hammer. . .
   - guru - Monday, 04/16/12 15:45:49 EDT

Some designers seem to think that function has taken out a restraining order against form to keep form from following function anymore!
   Thomas P - Monday, 04/16/12 16:46:39 EDT

Slick : In the South we use a different tool to debark called a spud; it's basically the same tool, only wider and thinner. A slick is used mostly to flatten or slick a joint or face in timber framing. Its use is similar to a yari(spear) plane.
   - - - Tuesday, 04/17/12 11:43:55 EDT

You might be right. . It's been 35 years since I was into primitive wood work and some of the terms get crossed up. I remember a spud but it is also a steel erector wrench.
   - guru - Tuesday, 04/17/12 18:06:24 EDT

Slicks : There are slicks and then there are slicks. I agree that the bark peeling tool is generally called a bark spud - I've made a handful for timber framers, as I have slicks, which they use for drafting out fitments in joinery. As noted, that slick is a big heavy chisel, usually with an extra long handle that is ferruled and collared for striking.

Then there is the tool, also called a slick, that tinners and and some smiths use that is a flatter-like tool but is generally rectangular rather than square as is customary for a flatter. This slick usually has a slight longitudinal rocker but it flat across the short dimension. They're used for running seams, chasing box corners and flatting in general wherever they fit well.

Then there are the "slicks" (treadless tires) that run on the back rims of drag cars, and the "slicks" (helicopters used for evac and exfil) in 'Nam, but I think we can discount both of those for our purposes. (grin)
   Rich Waugh - Tuesday, 04/17/12 23:33:46 EDT

Slick : It must be the tool referred to by Rich. I wonder if it is, perhaps, more of a UK than a US term.
   philip in china - Wednesday, 04/18/12 03:58:22 EDT

Slick : I have a friend that calls the handled tool used under a power hammer for smoothing tapers a "slick". Some folks may call it a power hammer flatter. The bottom of the tool is flat with relieved edges... The top (stuck with the powerhammer ram) is rounded so the bottom can be angled to smooth the object of it's affection. If flipped over, it becomes a fuller under the power hammer ram.
   - Dave Hammer - Wednesday, 04/18/12 08:33:26 EDT

Tempering : I was watching "How It's Made" on TV and saw something interesting, I can't remember what they were making but, they got the steel part, dipped it in carbon powder, then dipped it in hot lead to temper it, and since the carbon powder kept the lead from sticking to the steel, they just knocked it off slick as a whistle. Pretty neat.
   Mike T. - Wednesday, 04/18/12 15:50:15 EDT

Tempering : It sounds like they may also have been carburizing if they left it in the heat for a good while.
   - - - Wednesday, 04/18/12 17:23:45 EDT

Carburizing : Actually, the temp may not be high enough. I don't have access to a Handbook to check any carburizing temperature and depth/hour charts. Guru?
   - - - Wednesday, 04/18/12 17:24:51 EDT

lead tempering : Lead is fairly low temp to be used as a tempering medium. More commonly salt baths are used but there are other things too. Salt baths are nice as they can cover a large range of temp. Lead is bad enough for you at casting temp but as it gets hotter, it gives off fumes that can kill you.

I guess though if you need the temp that lead is safe at (about 425F I think, from memory but look it up for accurate information) it does hold a lot of heat to do the job. Carbon would certainly do the job of a release agent though.
   Wayne Parris - Wednesday, 04/18/12 17:33:27 EDT

Lead melts at 621°F and is easily used at higher temperature. It used to be a common tempering medium and is still used by a few industries. Its density gives it a very high specific heat so the bath is not effected by the part being quenched.

Carburizing or case hardening takes lots of time for even a few thousandths of an inch. See our case hardening FAQ
   - guru - Wednesday, 04/18/12 17:57:08 EDT

Lead Carburizing : Guru,
I know absolutely nothing about the subject, but if one were to carburize in lead, it looks like an electric crucible ( molding lead bullets ) would work, and as long as the part is not moved around, washing the carbon off, holding for long periods of time, maybe even days.
   Mike T. - Wednesday, 04/18/12 19:15:57 EDT

Tempering Springs : When making springs, it seems like using the above process would work very well, might even experiment with temperatures and time.
   Mike T. - Wednesday, 04/18/12 19:19:06 EDT

Lead at that temperature gives off a lot of very dangerous vapors. In the example given the carbon is just an anti-tinning agent.

If you want to case harden use the proper techniques. Those without lead or cyanide are quite safe and have been used for hundreds of years.

There are several ways to protect parts while tempering in a forge or furnace. The same stainless foil used to protect fine finished parts during hardening can be used for tempering. ITC-213 can also be used for both processes as well.
   - guru - Wednesday, 04/18/12 21:14:14 EDT

Lead Tempering : Dating myself again, but around 1990 while still with Airco I was visiting Heller files in southeast Ohio. We were discussing possible nitrogen based atmospheres to replace the lead pots they were using to heat treat files. They wanted to get away from lead due to the environmental issues that were just starting to become significant, such as employee exposure to lead fumes. If memory serves, they were using lead pots to both austenitize and temper the files.
   - Gavainh - Wednesday, 04/18/12 21:16:32 EDT

Lead carburizing : I don't think you'll have much joy with that at all. The melting point of lead being around 620°F isn't really hot enough to get much, if any, carbon migration into the steel. You need to be above a red heat (950°F+) before the carbon will start migrating, from what I understand. Even at that temp, the times are measured in hours or days in some cases.
   Rich Waugh - Wednesday, 04/18/12 23:17:53 EDT

Design allowable stress : Looking at the information on the jeweler's forging and plate frame presses in IForge How-To, No 161, the calculated stress would be 7.6 KSI for the 12-Ton rated press. I am thinking of building a press frame made from flame cut A-36 (A-50 if available) 2.0 inch thick plate with two 2.0 inch side legs (4.0 in.sq for each leg x 2 legs = 8 in.sq) for a “20-Ton” hydraulic air over hydraulic jack; the calculated stress would be 5.0 KSI. The movable platten could be made from the center cutout, and the plattens built up with 1.0 plate pieces welded on the front and back side of the platten and frame top, making up 4.0 by 4.0 top and bottom platten sizes. The working opening would be 6.0 inches high, the frame side to side opening 8.0 inches, corner cutout radius would be 1.0 inches, and the top and bottom frame height could be 3.0 inches tall for stiffness. I hope this gives a reasonable picture of what I think I’d like to do. Details on platten guides and keepers need to be developed, but I wanted to get comments on my thinking to this point.
   Bob Johnson - Thursday, 04/19/12 02:49:37 EDT

melting lead : YEP, I thought I had the temp wrong LOL.
   Wayne Parris - Thursday, 04/19/12 09:25:07 EDT

So thanks for confirming,with thy reluctance to accept,the originality of my notion concerning the function of the CW's.Funny thing about truth is that it just IS.There are a bunch of videos at the Engineering library of the U of Wis that are not on u-tube that my research into the CW solution revealed.The best is a crew of three strikers in Indonesia,all sitting down and striking on an Anvil set in/on the ground.Final note is the CW's are for Flatters and top tools,used at the time of a heat,then stored away from the forging area.Same thing,tucked away for safety.To really get it,you must actually have a few of these Anvils to closely examine,pix ain't enough.Thankseveryone and remember SAFETY GLASSES!
   - Generik Broderick - Thursday, 04/19/12 09:45:04 EDT

note on striking : So thanks for confirming,with thy reluctance to accept,the originality of my notion concerning the function of the CW's.Funny thing about truth is that it just IS.There are a bunch of videos at the Engineering library of the U of Wis that are not on u-tube that my research into the CW solution revealed.The best is a crew of three strikers in Indonesia,all sitting down and striking on an Anvil set in/on the ground.Final note is the CW's are for Flatters and top tools,used at the time of a heat,then stored away from the forging area.Same thing,tucked away for safety.To really get it,you must actually have a few of these Anvils to closely examine,pix ain't enough.Thankseveryone and remember SAFETY GLASSES!
   Generik Broderick - Thursday, 04/19/12 09:45:42 EDT

Generik, The originality is not in question. The wide spread practice is what it in question.
   - guru - Thursday, 04/19/12 10:19:46 EDT

Design Stresses :
Bob, I am having a little trouble with your word picture. Are the "legs" the columns in my drawing or the "press from plate"?

The stress is NOT the load in pure tension of the columns. In the model with round columns the stress is that in the middle of the plate when calculated with deflection. These are complicated calculations that start with sub calculations for section modulus then use length, load and the modulus of Elasticity (29 Million PSI for steel). Look up stress and deflection calculations in an Enginering reference.

As complicated as this is to calculate, it is MUCH simpler than flame cut plate on edge design. It uses simple point applied loads. On the enclosing or rectangular ring design the highest stresses are in the inside corners of the rectangle. Deflection directions are similar in both models but much more complicated in the plate design. (up and down at top and bottom and inward on the sides).

The inward deflection on the side columns is the result of the bending of the top and bottom and the unequal loading across the cross section of the columns.

The stresses and deflection on this "simplier" model can only be determined by finite element analysis (FEA). This used to be VERY difficult to do manually but today there are many engineering programs that can do the analysis from a 3D model. In simplified terms FEA breaks down every solid into many small tetrahedrons and calculates the distribution of loads and stresses across them. The result is a topographical map of forces that is most often displayed by minimums and maximums represented by color on the 3D model.

Prior to modern FEA analysis it was generally more cost effective to build the item and test it to failure or destruction. Scale models were often used and for some shapes it was found that clear plastic models could be made then stressed while being viewed through polarizing lenses, the stresses showing as variations of intensity of colors. The clear plastic model method often showed places where stresses were concentrated that were not obvious to the engineer. However, this method did not produce numeric data and showed the flow patterns in the plastic if injection molded. I think it was more of a laboratory curiosity than a widely applied engineering tool.

My stress limitation is based on very conservative values that produce minimal deflection in structures that need to be very rigid. However, the recommended shear stress is limited to as little as 9,000 PSI on square keys and we generally limited all parts to 10,000 PSI in our machinery building business. Many items start with the failure stresses then apply a safety margin. On devices designed to carry humans this may be a very high safety factor (very conservative). However, automobiles and aircraft use the minimum to be cost effective. . .

Stress in itself is most often NOT the design limiting factor. If beams in buildings and floors were designed based on stress only then floors would feel like walking on a trampoline and buildings would visibly sway in the wind. To avoid that feeling of walking on springs or a building swaying making you feel dizzy they are limited by deflection. Crane beams are the same. IF a crane bridge is based only on stress then it will deflect so much under load that a wheeled trolley will roll to the center and geared or motor driven trolleys will not climb the slope created by the deflection. I've had the misfortune of using such a crane, in a nuclear power plant no less. . .

In your press the deflection needs to be limited according to the design use. IF you can afford the sides to deflect inward a measurable amount then no problem. But if those sides are being used as guides then the deflection may clamp the platen preventing it from moving. Alignment of die parts may suffer if there is too much deflection. However, if all your dies are going to be put into an independent die set and the press only pushes then deflection is not so critical.

Note that cross sectional area has less to do with controlling deflection than how that area is shaped (such as in an I-beam - compared to a round or square bar).

ALSO, deflection in presses is stored energy that when suddenly released the movement can send parts flying OR if misaligned they can shoot out of the press. . . The typical auto shop hydraulic press is designed with lots of deflection and can be VERY scary when pressing things apart. I've had parts fly 20 feet across the shop when the fit let loose. I refuse to use those kinds of presses and that is why my big orange press is so stout.

Places where stress is more critical is bolts, welds and anywhere stress is concentrated.
   - guru - Thursday, 04/19/12 12:37:43 EDT

More about Presses :
Bob, Your design is probably plenty heavy enough. Its just difficult to determine mathematically. If you have the material the open space height should be equal to or a bit greater than the travel on the hydraulic jack to get the best use out of the press. Tooling always takes more space than you expect.
   - guru - Thursday, 04/19/12 21:50:37 EDT

Design Stresses : Guru, thank you for the dose of reality. Yes, the "legs are the columns". My uncle's design sense was "it anin't much for looks, but hell for strength - put on a coat of 1/4 inch gage paint" obviously has its limitations. I'll look at the side frame deflection. I was not planning on using die sets, but maily use it for forge welding specifically laminated billets. My first thought is to go from 2 by 2 columns to 2 by 3 sizedd legs, as 2.0 inch plate is realtively cheap and live with the resultant deflection.
Thanks,
Bob
   Bob Johnson - Friday, 04/20/12 02:09:51 EDT

Square inches and inches square : Where I come from there is a difference. 2" x 2" is 2" square but is 4 square inches! Might be worth checking if you are building something to take a load!
   philip in china - Friday, 04/20/12 07:26:55 EDT

And when measuring lumber, you round up to the nearest inch. I have NEVER seen a true 2x4 anywhere. Yet another reason to stick with metal as material goes. I guess tolerances for wood in construction are based on warpage, shrinkage, knots, etc.?

Today is Earth Day, stay grounded! (a little welding humor)
   - Nippulini - Friday, 04/20/12 09:51:22 EDT

Sizes and Measurement :
Nip, Lumber used to come in full dimensions. I've seen quite a bit of it. The industry adopted standards in the 40's or 50's with a tolerance that said +/- some amount. But they always went under and were +/-0.005"! When I was a kid the amount was 3/8" under the nominal. When I was a teenager it changed to -7/16". For many years my Dad insisted a 2x4 was 1-9/16" x 3-9/16" when it had changed to the current 1/2" under the nominal for lumber up to 8" and 3/4" for lumber over 8".

The greater undersize caused me some problems when I assumed a 2x10 was actually 1.5 x 9.5". I purchased 1/4" steel plate cut 9.5" wide to laminate into a composite beam. The steel stuck out 1/4"! So I had to split the sheet rock covering the beam and fill over the steel. . .

If you work on old houses you will find everything from 1/4" oversize rough cut lumber to the modern 1/2" undersize.

You round up to get the nominal but if you want something to fit you keep the dimensions to the nearest 1/32" or 1 mm.

THEN there is "engineered" lumber used in modular homes. . . 1-1/4" x 2-5/8" for a 2x4. Used for walls AND roofs. . . Should be illegal (it is in stick built).

When I wrote my Woodworking Bench article I included a chart with nominals and actual dimensions for clarity.
   - guru - Friday, 04/20/12 10:56:23 EDT

Keep yourself grounded. . . I like that. Going to steal it for the Holidays banner.
   - guru - Friday, 04/20/12 11:00:01 EDT

Hmmm . . Earth Day is the 22nd (Sunday this year).
   - guru - Friday, 04/20/12 11:20:05 EDT

More Lumber Sizes :
For a long time plywood and sheet products were all full dimension. Today the "standard" is undersized. 1/2" is now 15/32's. . . 3/8" is now 11/32's. . .

Imagine if steel was sold this way. OR, food. The math is rather Orwellian.
   - guru - Friday, 04/20/12 18:53:47 EDT

I was told that lumber dimensions were "as sawn" and planning and drying resulted in the decrease to "as sold"

Generik; interesting supposition; but when I was in Germany *none* of the smiths; either commercial at the open air museums used their anvils in that way so it may just be a local practice in various places and not a standard one.
   Thomas Powers - Saturday, 04/21/12 04:45:11 EDT

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