| WELCOME to the anvilfire Guru's Den - V. 3.0 |
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THIS is a forum for questions and answers about blacksmithing and general metalworking. Ask the Guru any reasonable question and he or one of his helpers will answer your question, find someone that can, OR research the question for you. This is an archive of posts from May 1 - 8, 2006 on the Guru's Den |
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Water in the slag tub, I read some were must be stagnet. basically O2 free how can i acheive this? I'm having problems with my slag tub water and i have just moved my shop to a new location and am having trouble setting up a few things. Haven't been on for a few days all this rain we got I've been mowing like crazy. I'll have to look what a roman knife looks like some time. I am hoping to move to germany some day. By the way does anybody know what chain mail is made out of? OR were I can get the materials to make it. I have a friend who makes it but I cant get ahold of him. Ps I made a hughe mprovement this weekend. I made me a new pair of tongs FInally. |
| - Tyler - Monday, 05/01/06 11:46:53 EDT |
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Tyler, a little bleach goes a long way. It will kill almost anything. Doesn't take much either. Also, if you google "chan mail" there are several demos on the web. |
| Mike H - Monday, 05/01/06 12:18:24 EDT |
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Its "Slack" tub as in to slake one's thirst. Slag is various types of burnt metal or silicous waste from smelting metals. Yep, A cup of bleach in the slack tub (about 20 gallons of water) will prevent mosquitos from breeding. However, it will greatly accelerate corrosion in metal tanks and should not be used in galvanized tanks. Water is about 6 parts oxygen by weight and hard to remove. . sounds like an old wives tale to me. You should regularly dump and refresh the water due to bacteria growth though few of us do. The bleach helps keep down the bacteria too. Excessive disolved oxygen from areation gases off in a few days but is not enough to have any effect on quenched parts. Chain mail was mostly made of wrought iron wire. Today it is made of low carbon steel wire and stainless wire. Theatrical and reinactment mail is often made from aluminium wire as it is easier to work and is much lighter weight. I have also seen it made from copper. |
| - guru - Monday, 05/01/06 12:54:01 EDT |
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Ken, I just replaced the pressure switch on my air compressor Sunday. The contacts had gotten so bad that it would not come on. I had to go press against them with a stick to get it to cycle. I found the switch at a local place for $36. It is a universal switch and worked just fine on my 5HP compressor. I can't believe how much better my compressor runs now that the motor is getting the proper juice. If you want, I can pick one up and send it to you. Email me to discuss particulars if you like. FredlyFX http://fredlyfx.com |
| FredlyFX - Monday, 05/01/06 13:57:39 EDT |
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rthibeu- Im talking about a set of gates made from 1"1/2 x 1/2" flat bar frame with 3/4" infills, with a bow top and arrow head finnials.Im grateful for any suggestions. |
| mark - Monday, 05/01/06 14:54:14 EDT |
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Mark - how many do you have to make? |
| - rthibeau - Monday, 05/01/06 16:02:30 EDT |
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So you need an anvil.... [This is NOT an advertisment of any kind] Have you heard the Guru and wise folks here say that an "anvil" doesn't ahve to be an Anvil (tm) to be useable? Well, to illustrate the point, a friend and I, benefitting from the wisdom of that statement and the generosity of Thomas Powers, made an anvil from a chink of scrap in the woods. You can see a few pictures here: www.mkarmory.com Click on the "That Anvil Story" link in the bottom right. Thanks again, Thomas, Dan loves his new "anvil." We'll be having a little forced air bonfire in a few weeks to shape the horn and harden the top face. BTW, total cost... $25 for welding. MikeM-OH |
| MikeM OH - Monday, 05/01/06 16:59:20 EDT |
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In addition to the oxygen inherent in the water, most water has dissolved oxygen in it. The feed water for steam boilers is (or at least should be) de-oxygenated by heating it to near boiling before injecting into the boiler. As I understand it, if the feed water is not de-oxygenated the life of the boiler will be severely compromised. If you look in a pot of water which you are heating, bubbles will form well before the water starts to boil. The bubbles are the dissolved gasses coming out of solution. |
| John Lowther - Monday, 05/01/06 17:06:30 EDT |
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Sorry for wasting band width. I didn't notice the guru's last paragraph. |
| John Lowther - Monday, 05/01/06 17:09:30 EDT |
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rthibeu- Just one at a time for different size drive ways etc. also railings using similar materials but most different shapes and sizes. |
| mark - Monday, 05/01/06 17:10:46 EDT |
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I'll post this just in case it helps someone (if not, a laugh at my expense won't hurt anyone). I have a 5 HP Sears compressor I bought reconditioned about 15 years ago and have used occasionally since. I was never happy with it. It didn't seem to put out as much air as it should, ran continuosly with relatively small loads, and the motor would overheat and shut off. I fooled and fooled with it, even adding a housing and small electric fan to pull more air through the motor. Ten years later, I took it apart for something else, and found a long crack on the back side of the aluminum tube between the head and the tank. Five minutes installing a piece of copper tubing made a world of difference. When the compressor was running, the leak was almost a knock, and I hadn't picked it out of the general clatter. When it stopped, the check valve at the tank (which I hadn't realized was there) kept it from leaking. |
| Mike B - Monday, 05/01/06 17:49:05 EDT |
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Mike, Great article! Great anvil! I have made the link hot. This is the perfect reuse of that fork. When done you had about 130-140 pounds but because of the shape it is as effective as a much much heavier anvil. I'd do as little as possible to the "horns". Keep thinking out of the box. . . |
| - guru - Monday, 05/01/06 18:15:19 EDT |
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Sears Compressors. . . Mine had (still has) a defective capacitor starting switch. Makes the power for blocks around pulse like you would not believe. Had the power company going house to house looking for the problem many years ago. . I do not know how it keeps going because when most capacitor start switches stick the motor flames out in seconds. Same compressor had missing reed valves. I know they were missing because when I went to put new ones in one side did not have threaded holes for the self threading screws. . We bought it on sale. Do you think maybe Sears knew they had a bad batch when they put them on sale? |
| - guru - Monday, 05/01/06 18:21:12 EDT |
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I would buy tools of any sort from Sears only as a last resort. Craftsman does not mean what it used to. Getting them to okay a Harris factory rebuild of a set of Craftsman 2-stage oxy-acetylene regulators was an adventure in modern retailing. We may have sold it but we don't know what an O/A regulator is, and we don't care, was the general picture. Likewise, the chuck kept falling out of a big Chinese drill press I bought from them. Sears could not have cared less, took it back without a question. |
| Miles Undercut - Monday, 05/01/06 18:30:18 EDT |
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Re forklift tine anvil: I cut that round bar with a hacksaw and drug out my tine by myself from a forklift I had found pushed off a bluff face where a foundry used to discard their junk it was quite a trek to the nearest road I could access. Now what are you going to do with the other piece? I moved my tines (I have another smaller one) but have been waiting for access to a hammer like Patrick's to forge the base into a point for a stump mount like several renaissance, Roman and viking era anvils I have seen. I have always been free with my scrounge locations only asking that folks treat them with the respect that I did! Thomas |
| Thomas P - Monday, 05/01/06 18:35:43 EDT |
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I was wondering how to make a steel or iron tube. I understand it was a very hard process and required many welds. Anyone ever made one? |
| - Brad - Monday, 05/01/06 18:41:39 EDT |
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Need more info Brad- Its easy to make a tube- you roll flat sheet into a circle, and weld the seam. I have done it many times, in material ranging from 24 ga to 3/8" in thickness, and in quite large lengths, in a variety of metals. Of course, you need the appropriate tools for the size and thickness you are making- could be a stake made from round bar, or a huge power plate roll. Could be welded with an oxyfuel torch, or an automated seam welder. Or are you talking about something completely different? |
| ries - Monday, 05/01/06 19:20:54 EDT |
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In taking the compressor apart I believe the problem is with the combination on/off and pressure switch. At least under it is where the air seemed to be escaping and there is a hole in the bottom of that unit. Switch is marked Furnas Electric Co. 034-0091, Cat. No. 69LM109137R. On 90 PSI/Off 120 PSI. I did a Google on Furnas and first hit was a company in St. Louis which says they sell replacement parts. Have contacted them. Might be able to salvage compressor yet. |
| Ken Scharabok - Monday, 05/01/06 19:29:58 EDT |
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Brad, I welded up a phony rifle-gun barrel for ol' Turner Kirkland's Dixie Gun Works Museum in Union City, Tennessee. The barrel was exhibited to show the sequence used by the gunsmith. I used Swedish wrought iron. The end was 6" of flat skelp. Then, I forged 6" of rolled and butted iron. The next 6" was the welded tube, round in section. The next 6", I rough forged into an octagonal section. The final 6" was draw-filed and polished outside, and drilled out to about ˝" inside. A helper held a tapered mandrel of H13 steel, about 14" long. He quickly inserted it for each welding heat, so I was welding over the "relatively cold" mandrel for each heat. The mandrel was withdrawn after each weld was made. I first saw this method in the Williamsburg Foundation video, "The Gunsmith of Williamsburg". This year, I welded up a pistol barrel the same way, excet when welding an entire length, you start in the middle and work both ways of the middle. The two rolled edges meet as butt joints. No scarfs are used, because the thin tapered end will leave a shut on the inside of the barrel. |
| Frank Turley - Monday, 05/01/06 19:33:18 EDT |
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Ken- I don't know if there is a GRAINGER located near you but they stock replacement switches for air compressors-may not be same brand but are comparable-you may have to set up a cash account in company name-make up a company name |
| - ptpiddler - Monday, 05/01/06 19:33:28 EDT |
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I've been looking for a piece of 1045 6" sq. x 12", but can't find anything but big round bar and lower carbon steel. If anybody does know where I can find some let me know, but otherwise I'm going to use mild steel with a tool steel or carbon steel plat welded to the top. What steels would be best for this? O-1 would be the most convenient and best for me, but would it work well? Also I know very little about modern welding. What type of welding should I ask them to do when I take it to the welding shop? Thanks |
| Tyler Murch - Monday, 05/01/06 20:40:16 EDT |
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It's for an anvil by the way! |
| Tyler Murch - Monday, 05/01/06 20:41:03 EDT |
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Thanks for the reply Thomas, QUOTE...this seems like a spot on task for a hot work tool steel like H13---any particular reason you want to use mild?...end I have no idea what to use so if mild steel cant work I will use the H13. Thanks again, Franklin |
| Franklin - Monday, 05/01/06 20:46:26 EDT |
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More Tube and Pipe Making: Starting with a short heavy round a hole is punched or drilled. Then the round is drawn out by forging or pressing. Then if it is going to be made into long tube or pipe it is drawn through reducing dies. No welds. This method is used for a variety of products especially filled wires like flux core welding wire and solder. High grade solder is made from a solder plug with multiple holes which are filled with rosin flux then sealed. The whole plug is then pressed and then rolled and then drawn into solder wire as small as 1/32". The entire length may have one to five holes with flux. Hundreds of feet may be made from one plug. Most production hot drawn pipe is made by pulling through a funnel shaped former or drawing die with an optional mandrel that extends into through the funnel a short distance. The metal is drawn in at welding heat and the pressure between the drawing die and mandrel weld the pipe. Flat goes in, pipe comes out. Frank! I remember that Dixie gun works article! Did not know it was you. ;) |
| - guru - Monday, 05/01/06 21:07:00 EDT |
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Glass Shears and tools: Franklin, There are many hot work steels. Almost any air quench or high carbon steel will work. Thomas is probably overestimating the temperature of semi-molten glass. Early glass work tools were wrought iorn (unhardenable) and did fine. Shears such as used for sheet metal should work. However, if you have a knife edge then you will need a higher carbon steel. A2, S7, H2 through H27 are all air quench steels and are tempered in the molten glass range so the heat will have no effect. Many smiths prefer S7 becasue it is said to be easy to heat treat. However, anything with odd shapes like shears can be tricky. Heat slowly to work, do not thermal shock or work too cold. |
| - guru - Monday, 05/01/06 21:13:31 EDT |
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Fork tine anvil: I forgot to be specific about this... Dan went hiking for teh fork, carried it out, did all the cutting, and is doing the finishing... all I did was drive the van. Since DAn doesn't frequent here, I'm posting the link for him. I have a great deal of respect for Thomas' effort after picking that thing up myself... WOW! Now, the other piece is about 70-80 lbs in an almost straight bar, with slight tapering near the point. That one will be cut into 2 pieces and welded together to double the width, with the tapered point sticking out 6 in longer than the second piece. That point will be reshaped into a more traditional stump mount to be a second anvil. While hald the weight of the first one, it's still a very efficient shape. I'll pass the compliments on to Dan... he worked like crazy to haul that thing out, and now that its done, he's hammering like crazy. Being all 5160, the rebound is CRAZY. I'll get out the ball bearing and ruler next time I'm over there. |
| MikeM OH - Monday, 05/01/06 21:33:46 EDT |
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Playing catch-up here, since I was tied up with a Viking display at the Calvert Marine Museum this weekend. Dislocation and Work Hardening: Lydia (from Camp Fenby) sent me a link from Lawrence Livermore Labs (where my father-in-law used to work back in the '50s): http://www.llnl.gov/pao/news/news_releases/2006/NR-06-04-08.html It may be old hat to some of our folks, but it certainly helps explain things to me. :-) |
| Bruce Blackistone (Atli) - Monday, 05/01/06 22:36:14 EDT |
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Tyler: there isn't a good way [other than a forge weld] to weld a plate on the end of a bar to make an anvil. What is needed is a weld that goes all the way to the center of the parts, that would be 3" deep from each side. That is doable, but it isn't practicle. A possible solution would be to build up a layer of hard surface or tool steel weld deposit and then grind it flat. Another posibility would be to use it as is. The round bar might not be so bad, use something else for making corners. |
| Dave Boyer - Monday, 05/01/06 23:18:36 EDT |
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Thanks, guru, for the suggestions on using the 20 Mule Team borax straight from the box. I think that the failure was due to a combination of factors: no iron filings, too little flux (so the dancing foaming effect caused intolerable loss), as well as the unfamiliar forge. While I was at the conference, I saw someone else's welding setup: a tray and a shaker can. This allows an abundance of flux to be used, then reused. It probably would have helped. So, I will skip the coffee grinder idea and stick with the 20 Mule Team borax and just sprinkle more of it at a hotter start. Also, I think that the iron filing make thing less slippery. |
| EricC - Tuesday, 05/02/06 01:35:52 EDT |
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Scott, on quenching. Hi. I will try to take advantage of your generous offer, and realize that collaboration between scholars is one of the quickest ways to learn. My question is about some quenching advice that I read on www.navaching.com. (forge/heattreat.html). The advice was that nearly any steel could be quenched in brine if the precaution was taken to keep the cooling slow for the martensite transition. This kind of makes sense, since the volume change is larger than the volume change associated with contraction on cooling the relative softer austentite. Thus, slowing the cooling rate after the nose at 900F should protect from the larger stresses at the phase transition. But again, I have heard stories of people cracking steels by accidentally quencing in water and withdrawing before the color disappeared. It has, however, never happened to me. I did a little web searching, and came up with several references on a process called "Intensiquenching". The license holder claims a similar thermo-mechanical mechanism for allowing a brine quench. He has done extensive modeling, and I have reviewed independent FEA DOE studies that tend to corroborate the results. Furthermore, by searching on Intensiquench, it appars that several heat treating companies have licensed the process and are offering these services. Does this make any sense? Sounds interesting if it does. No oil (at least for thick cross sections). Thanks, Eric |
| EricC - Tuesday, 05/02/06 01:45:16 EDT |
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Anybody have any idea how I can turn a 35 ton punchpress into a forging hammer? The flywheel on the old PP is wobbly and I think unsafe at any speed. |
| Ken Marshall - Tuesday, 05/02/06 02:35:31 EDT |
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Ken M: I think it would be difficult to fit a spring & toggle in the space available, There is an air spring hammer in the home built hammer section, that aproach may fit better. Something other than solid linkage needs to connect the crank and ram, as I guess You know. How much stroke does the punchpress have? |
| Dave Boyer - Tuesday, 05/02/06 02:56:35 EDT |
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The standard material for offhand glassworking tools' working parts right now is D2. This includes shears and jacks and other such things. I reckon that you could do all the relevant shaping cold with a bench grinder and belt sander and you would not need to heat treat the stuff -- braze on handles just like the pros do. I have some shears made up from leafspring that I have yet to assemble and use... need to get around to that. |
| T. Gold - Tuesday, 05/02/06 05:26:27 EDT |
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i wish to make a sharpening steel and or redo one i have thats worn out, id like to find out the best way to do this. id also like to know the best way to magnetize a sharpening steel.any help would be grately appreciated. andrew |
| andrew - Tuesday, 05/02/06 05:55:58 EDT |
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id like to find out how to make a sharpening steel and or redo a steel that i have that is worn out. and id also liketo find out what the best way to magnetize a steel would be. cheers Andy |
| andrew - Tuesday, 05/02/06 05:58:28 EDT |
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Sharpening Steel: Andrew, These have a special ground texture that is going to be hard to produce I believe. Magnetizers work by various methods. The only one I have seen in action was a laboratory magnetizer. It was a large coil to place the part into. The power supply had a place for a very light duty fuse made of aluminium foil. It was plugged in, the fuse went "pop" and the short sudden electromagnetic surge magnetized the part. Note that the ability of steel to be permanently magnetized is determined by its hardness. Carbon free pure iron is magnetic but cannot be magnetized. That is why it is used in transformers and solenoids. The best magnet steels are high carbon nickle alloys. |
| - guru - Tuesday, 05/02/06 08:43:58 EDT |
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Iron Filings in Flux: Some folks like this and others do not. If your goal is to produce laminated steels then you DO NOT want to use iron filings as they contaminate the weld and dirupt the pattern. The iron filings must be clean steel or CI. Offal from a saw is the best. Never use grinder swarf. Even though it seems like iron powder it has a high percentage of grinder grit which is a refractory material that will not melt or disolve in the flux nor help the weld. One recommeded source for iron powder is an automotive brake shop. They generate many pounds of ductile iron chips turing disks and drums and are usualy glad to give it away. Just be sure that they have not been using a grinder attachment on their brake machine. |
| - guru - Tuesday, 05/02/06 08:51:14 EDT |
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Punch Press to Hammer: Ken, a punch press and a power hammer are two completely different machines. The punch press mechanism is designed to go full stroke EVERY time. Stopping it short will wreck the mechanism. The frame of a punch press, while very heavy. is not designed for the repeated impact loads of a hammer nor is there anvil mass where it needs to be. An anvil needs to be there to resist the impact. Mechanical conversions are difficult as Dave mentioned. Probably the best would be to convert to an air hammer. This means scraping everything except the frame and ram and adding a seperate anvil and brackets for the air cylinder. A very small ton ot two ton punch press was used one the plannishing hammer built by Ted Banning. This hammer used a double spring mechanism to absorb height variations from different thickness materials. It is the only punch press to hammer converison that I have seen that worked. |
| - guru - Tuesday, 05/02/06 09:11:55 EDT |
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Filings and swarf: Isn't a magnet covered with paper a good way to separate the filings and swarf from contaminates like grinder stone particles and fiber fragments? Is there any way to use swarf that has cutting fluid on it? |
| - Nippulini - Tuesday, 05/02/06 09:26:26 EDT |
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Andrew. Knife steels. The only reference that I know of is 20th Century Toolsmith and steel worker. After annealing, Holford recommends draw filing with the file cuts in line with the steel length. Before hardening he covers the surface with ˝ wheat flour and ˝ salt mixed to a paste with water. This protects the steel lines when hardening. Some auto supply stores carry simple "magnetizer-demagnetizers". I have one made by Alsaco in Cleveland, Ohio. They're usually recommended for screwdrivers. Mine is a metal football shaped piece about 2" long with a 1 1/8" hole through it. You demagnetize by dragging the tool over the exterior of the thing. You magnetize by running the tool through the centeral hold and withdrawing it...or you can leave the magnetizer hanging on the screwdriver shank, and it will give a little more strength if you want to hold a screw in position for driving. After hardening, I think I would at least boil the steel in water for a while. The old timers say that boiling will "take the sanp out of the tool" (less brittle). |
| Frank Turley - Tuesday, 05/02/06 10:02:38 EDT |
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TGN, A magnet will sort out some of the non-iron grit but they alos pick up the burnt iron and scale. Grinder grit can be seperated but it is not worth the effort and most is burned. |
| - guru - Tuesday, 05/02/06 10:54:26 EDT |
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Just out of curiosity. If I heat forge the armor I make and don't temper it. Would it by an chance affect its strength? I know this is probly a stupid question but I'm just wondering. I don't do alot of tempering. By the way a family member came up to me after they found out i do black smithing and want me to make them a cast iron head bord for there bed. I told them I don't do blacksmithing I do armor smithing. But I would try my best to do what they wanted. Were would I acquire cast iron or some sort of metal that resembles cast iron? and how would I forge each piece into a spiral? |
| - Tyler - Tuesday, 05/02/06 11:44:33 EDT |
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When I was a kid, I had a job in a meter company. I calibrated aircraft instrument meters. The magnets we used back then were alloys called AlNiCo, for Aluminum, Nickel, and Cobalt added. These things were really hard and did not dent. I could fracture them with a pair of needle-nosed pliers if I wasn't careful. The magnetizer we used was a big coil-based thing that clamped the magnets between two jaws and we hit the foot pedal. One time a girl with braces was looking too close to it when she hit the pedal and it sucked her face into the clamp. No damage, except to her pride. And we demagnetized using a hand-wound cable attached to a Variac. Real high-tech, but it got the job done. If you ever want to have fun with magnets today, get some of those Rare earth magnets, neodymium. I got a stack of 1/8-in X 1/2-in from eBay for a few bucks. You can get a blood blister if you get some skin stuck between both halves of the stack. But that's only part of the fun :-) |
| - Marc - Tuesday, 05/02/06 11:45:48 EDT |
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Cast Iron: Tyler, both you and your family member have a technological misinformation problem. Cast iron is CAST, not forged. It is a hard, brittle, weak substance that cannot be worked under the hammer. Many decorative things have been made of cast iron including railings and beds. The process is to make a pattern, then a mold and then pour the liquid iron into the mold. It is most suitable to making many copies of the same item. Wrought iron beds are made of wrought or mild steel. Brass beds are made of brass tubing OR brass plated steel tubing. Decorative iron beds often have brass elements on the iron as well as repousse' in any suitable metal. Decorative iron beds may also be made of stainless or aluminium and often have gilded parts. See our review of Beds and Bedroom Accessories |
| - guru - Tuesday, 05/02/06 12:20:00 EDT |
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Heat Effects:Yes, heating plate effects its strength. Much armour plate work becomes work hardened as it is worked. This makes it much stiffer and a little harder than normal. In some cases work hardening is desirable in others not. In sheet and plate work it is often required to heat the plate to anneal it to remove work hardening in order to continue working otherwise cracking may occur. Predicting when annealing is going to be needed is difficult requiring a LOT of experiance thus planning on a degree of work hardening as a finishing step is also difficult. Generally in mild steel plate a small degree of work hardening is beneficial. A high degree would make it brittle and suseptible to brittle fracture. |
| - guru - Tuesday, 05/02/06 12:29:42 EDT |
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Tyler hot working steel will affect how hard and tough it is. What exactly happens depends on the alloy and exactly what you did. In general hot working will leave the metal softer and less likely to break but easier to dent. In general steels with higher carbon contents will be "tougher" than lower carbon content steels even when not quench hardened and may have very nice properties if normalized. Thomas |
| Thomas P - Tuesday, 05/02/06 15:58:19 EDT |
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Hi Guru. What do you know about large Chambersburg steam (or air) hammer foundations? We've had problems with the wooden part of the foundations starting on fire because of hot forging slag falling between the cracks on the oak. Is there talk of anyone specially treating the wood, coating it with something, or maybe covering the wood with sheet metal to protect wooden hammer foundations? -Michael |
| - Michael W - Tuesday, 05/02/06 17:23:17 EDT |
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Hammer Foundations: On C frame hammers it is common practice to cut the wedges in a straight line and fabricate a snug fitting sheet metal guard to cap the wedges. It needs to fit the anvil well. A borax and water solution can be used on wood to reduce its flamability but it will not prevent someplace with heavy burn through from catching fire. On large open die operations there was a man that kept the dies clean and lubricated as need be and also chased hot bits and pieces. Dies were often swabbed out with water and the same brush could chase smouldering embers. I've never heard of it used for this purpose but ITC-100 has been used to coat plywood to make a temporary door for a large furnace. The point was to reduce heat loss while a new door was being preped to fit or old one repaired. It did not keep the edges from catching fire but it held the heat at bay long enough. . .  In blacksmiths shops with woden floors it is not unusual to see tin nailed down to the floor in hot zones. |
| - guru - Tuesday, 05/02/06 19:02:02 EDT |
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im having troble finding an anvil got any were thay might sell for cheap |
| robert tejeda - Tuesday, 05/02/06 19:16:07 EDT |
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I dont think Micheal was talking about wedges, although I could be wrong- I think he was talking about the Oak Cribbing that Chambersburg recommended putting under the hammer- lots and lots of huge beams. I know when Russell Jacque built the footing for his 750 lb chambersburg, he put in thousands of dollars worth of white oak cribbing down that huge hole. And it would indeed be a nasty thing if it caught on fire- kind of like a coal mine fire. |
| ries - Tuesday, 05/02/06 19:25:06 EDT |
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Eric, I am not a PhD but I play one on TV. You can quench some steels in brine down to what is called the Ms or Martensite Start temperature. You then withdraw the steel and let it slow cool where it slowly transforms from austenite to martensite. The formation of martensite starts at about 700F and is not a time dependant function. You can hold the piece at an intermediate temperature and it will only transform partially to martensite. The Mf or Martensite Finish temperature may be well below zero. That is why cryogenic treatment is sometimes used. |
| quenchcrack - Tuesday, 05/02/06 20:11:55 EDT |
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Tyler: There are a whole lot of bits & pices that can be purchased out of the "King Arcitectual Metals" catalogue. If they find elements they like You may be able to assemble them into a bed for them, or at least make a headboard & footboard for a regular bed frame. Some may call such a thing funkey, others cheesy, a few might just call it a piece of shit, but then again somebody may like it. |
| Dave Boyer - Tuesday, 05/02/06 21:09:24 EDT |
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Andrew: A half assed method of coaxing a little more life fron a dull steel is to etch it in acid, which should leave a roughened surface. I don't know why You would want to magnetize it, but wraping with heavy household wire, 1 INSULATED strand a bunch of turns to make a coil and a quick pulse of DIRECT CURRENT like from a car battery will magnetize it. The tinfoil fuse is probably a good safety feature, if connected more than a split second the wire will get REALLY HOT and then BURN OFF. Demagnetizers are a coil with alternating current run through tem, the work is passed through or over the coil depending how it is made. The pass through type comes in small sizes for tools held in the hand up to huge omes that a submarine can drive through. |
| Dave Boyer - Tuesday, 05/02/06 21:30:42 EDT |
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Tyler - for affects of heat treat on real armour get a copy, or use the inter-library loan to borrow a copy of Alan Williams "The Knight & the Blast Furnace" My W.A.G. - if you quick cooled a 1050 or 4150 piece of armour, (hit it with several fans) you'd probably end up with a mostly bainitic structure - should be fairly decent for SCA type armour. Arrange the fans to make cooling as even as possible - maybe heat treat at about 500 F to minimize stresses and increase toughness after the normalize. Note - you need steel with some carbon in it, not normal hot rolled or cold rolled mild steel. |
| - Gavainh - Tuesday, 05/02/06 21:52:29 EDT |
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Novice with a bit of Architecture/handyman background currently attempting to invent. I am trying to make a 6" flat spring shaft with a slight curve/bend (similar to a metal rake tine). I was thinking of starting with a 3/8" wide strip of .030-.040 Tempered & Polished Spring Steel. How does one make an approx. 6 degree bend at one end without making it brittle yet holds the bend? Do you heat the area before bending? Or bend it and temper the bend after? And is my choice of starting materials a good one? I would appreciate any advice or a place to research for more information. Thank you all, Eric |
| Eric - Wednesday, 05/03/06 01:30:59 EDT |
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Thanks, quenchcrack, for the confirmation. This sounds interesting to try out, especially with O1 as was suggested on the www site or even 5160. Maybe I will give it a try sometime when I have a known source and a fairly thick section. |
| EricC - Wednesday, 05/03/06 01:45:07 EDT |
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Micheal W. It is usual practice to have the whole area around the hammer checker (chequer ? sp) plated right up tight to the anvil block, this makes skating hot billets accross the floor / bogey access etc etc much easier and safer! As Jock mentioned a cap made from angle iron is fitted over the wedges between anvil and baseplate. We also seal the timbers with bitumen (odd really as its obviously flamable) or a 2 part polysulphide 'rubber' sealant (thioflex 600 PG or similar) - these prevent ingress of scale & water into the timbers or foundation mat. Really there is no excuse for a gap big enough for anything flamable to get under the hammer baseplate. Good 'housekeeping' is free, and if there isnt a mountain of scale around the anvil you can spot any problems early :) |
| John N - Wednesday, 05/03/06 06:07:56 EDT |
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Robert T, go to a meeting of your local artist black smiths assn |
| Ron Childers - Wednesday, 05/03/06 07:31:01 EDT |
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Plate John, In the US it is commonly called deck plate or checker plate. The old Machinery's Handbook article on hammer foundations recommended 6 to 8 foot "Georgia pine" set verticaly for drop hammers and concrete with a 3" wood pad for steam hammers. Drop hammers in this case probably being board drops. The wood foundation is sealed with tar or creasote to prevent rot and has dirt packed tight around it. No fire proofing is mentioned. In the old Niles Bement Pond literature timbers are stacked horizontaly for the anvil. Concrete piers are used for the hammer with wood timbers to pad. The piers leave the sides of the anvil timber surrounded by dirt which "can be removed for access as needed". No mention of water-proofing or fire-proofing. No mention of foundations in my Chambersburg book other than Korfund pads for self contained hammers. |
| - guru - Wednesday, 05/03/06 08:50:19 EDT |
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Anyone know anybody in PABANA? I've e-mailed a request for a membership application a week ago and haven't heard anything since. When I get the funds more together (divorce settlement coming in the end of May), I will join CSI. |
| - Nippulini - Wednesday, 05/03/06 09:00:53 EDT |
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Robert Tejeda, there are no cheap new anvils bought from commercial sources. Buying anvils from other smiths is not the cheap way to go either---we know what they are worth! The cheap way is to either settle for a large chunk of steel from a scrap yard (see the forklift tine anvil link just up the page a bit) knowing that most of the world's blacksmiths don't use london pattern anvils yet do great work anyway. Or asking everyone you know/meet until you find an anvil just taking up space and biting shins in someone's garage or basement. These will often be a good deal if you can evaluate them as to quality. Thomas |
| Thomas P - Wednesday, 05/03/06 11:22:03 EDT |
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Nippulini-- this is the era of The New Rude, in which one does not respond to Email. I Emailed SOFA for info re Quad State last week, haven't heard a peep except for an automated receipt. SNAFU as another era put it. |
| Miles Undercut - Wednesday, 05/03/06 11:39:32 EDT |
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Thanks for the input every body. I figured if i heated my plate armor to much and tried to temper it then it would either A.) crack or B.) become very brittle and easy to break. Ok on the cribbing he hprobly wants to know about what he can do to fire retart it. But thats my interpretation. I will get the book gavainh mentioned and read it. |
| - Tyler - Wednesday, 05/03/06 12:11:17 EDT |
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Responding to mail: I respond to almost all my mail if there is a suitable response. However, at least twice a month a write a nice response to a question and then the return mail bounces. It is almost always a bad e-mail address. Then there are the spam filters. I have none because they do not work. Most filter out almost as much real mail as spam. . . so why have e-mail at all? Speaking of SPAM. I watched a video clip of a top security guy from Verisign giving a speach at Google this spring. He said the same things I wrote about in 2002, that SPAM is a key part of the majority of all Internet crime, especially identity theft. I said more and the "experts" have not yet caught up. |
| - guru - Wednesday, 05/03/06 12:26:58 EDT |
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Well a lot of smithing groups have only a volunteer to deal with their e-mail, they get sick or go on vacation and you are out of luck. This is combined with a lot of people who don't read their e-mail every day---shoot we don't pick up our USPS mail every day here, I try not to let less "well connected" people get to me. Now if you are running a business with a web presence then having someone checking and answering email is one of the business costs like having a receptionist or a phone with an answering machine. Short yourself there and you are tossing business down the drain. SOFA had a few prominant members that were against having a website to start with. Thomas |
| Thomas P - Wednesday, 05/03/06 13:18:25 EDT |
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Miles, in that Other Era it seems FUBAR was also an acceptable definition as well...... |
| Ellen - Wednesday, 05/03/06 13:45:24 EDT |
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To the Guru(s),To respond to your Responding to mail... I for one appreciate your efforts to even having an active site! It just good to know that there are people out there keeping the entraprenurial spirit alive! Your website was a link on many other metal working websites (well respected by others too). - and hope my email wasn't one of the bouncers - Thanks |
| Eric - Wednesday, 05/03/06 13:56:15 EDT |
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Ellen We use words like hecky darn, ahh sugar, horse apples here. We don't like acronyms that are specific to vulgar language usage that our kids can understand. I call it harlot mouth. |
| - Burnt Forge - Wednesday, 05/03/06 13:57:30 EDT |
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Guru Exactly what Eric said. This is a great site with wonderful resources and you work hard at it. A+ |
| - Burnt Forge - Wednesday, 05/03/06 14:00:27 EDT |
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Miles! If you are going to SOFA this year it might be a reason for me to go again! Bouncing mails. You never know and since they leave no other way to follow up all you can do is flush the question and answer. This last bounce was from an elementary school teacher that wanted to know the origin of the word "blacksmith" for her class. . . |
| - guru - Wednesday, 05/03/06 14:21:54 EDT |
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Burnt Forge, it's only vulgar to a vulgar mind. Could mean fouled up beyond all recognition. Same as SNAFU. |
| Ellen - Wednesday, 05/03/06 14:40:12 EDT |
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Jock, I am deeply flattered! The thing about Email, voicemail, faxes, customer service 880 numbers, etc. is that people locked in the past like me think they exist to further communication. They don't. They are just a thickening of the corporate carapace, more shielding to spare them the onerous chore having to deal with (Ewww!) the public, their (Ughh!) customers. Try finding a CONTACT US button, much less a phone number or street address for a lot of these outfits on the web. Thomas-- anyone who can fog a mirror can manage to post meeting details. Ellen-- I am trying to get into synch with the tenor of the times, so I hope you will understand if I ain't gonna respond to that post of yours. |
| Miles Undercut - Wednesday, 05/03/06 14:44:20 EDT |
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Spam-stuff posing as meat Internet wise- Stuff posing as mail. Now is it just me or is "meat" not susposed to have a jelly like sustance on top of it? I was thinking in my 4th hour class today. What all extras go into steel/ high carbon iron? (besides Carbon) Robert You can also do a serach on the internet for old abandoned farms and see if you can find any around there. thats how I found my 2nd anvil. We used to have old RR tracks run on our property and I found a chunk of rail the RR left behind so I barrowed a cutting torch and made the 2nd anvil. Works pretty well. For anvil Stumps/Mounts does anyone have any preferences for types of wood? I heard from some other sources on the Internet Elm is good and OAk to for use under that type of use and beating. |
| - Tyler - Wednesday, 05/03/06 15:15:52 EDT |
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Hey All, I have a chance to buy a used "Canadian Farriers Anvil" they say that it is over 130 Pounds, and it will cost 500 dollars Canadain, no noticeable chips in the face, and it looks very good, Is that a good deal? |
| Troll - Wednesday, 05/03/06 15:23:51 EDT |
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also, sorry to post twice, but, they also have 70 90 and 125 pound anvils , the site is , WWW.HoofNail.com its the hoof and nail farriers supply shop in calgary, out of all these sizes what would you say is the best kind, thanks |
| Troll - Wednesday, 05/03/06 15:25:07 EDT |
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hi,my name is dave and i live in wales UK i have been trying to e mail jerry allen to se if he is still selling the plans for his power hammer.butt cant get a reply.can enywone help thanks dave |
| washtub dave - Wednesday, 05/03/06 16:05:30 EDT |
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Lets everyone keep the common slang language clean. It is plain vulgar. Most acronym slang is well known in our culture and not recognized just by a vulgar mind, but most folks since we are surround by the perverse use of language in most employment and public arenas. This isn't other forging forums. I think it should be kept clean here as per Jocks rules. Jock please back me up on this one. Now back to forging. |
| - Burnt Forge - Wednesday, 05/03/06 16:06:18 EDT |
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Yep, we try to keep it clean here. Issaac Asimov was fond of pointing out that authors that could not write without explictives did not have a very good vocabulary. To prove his point he wrote several books of dirty jokes without the seven deadly words. |
| - guru - Wednesday, 05/03/06 16:26:20 EDT |
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CA Troll, If you are not a farrier then a farrier's anvil is a bad choice. 500 is a bit steep for a used farriers anvil but it may be an OK deal in the Great White North. In Calgary you have a number of smiths and a blacksmithing association. They would be the ones to ask about prices and suppliers. You also need to consider that this is coming up on high farrier season in Alberta and the stampede is in July. There are a couple suppliers up there that carry Czech made anvils that are at least as well made as the farriers anvil but the weight is in the middle under the face where it needs to be for forging. Farrier's anvils tend to have a lot of weight in that oversize horn. This makes them center light and tend to tip when you work on the horn. |
| - guru - Wednesday, 05/03/06 16:32:57 EDT |
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My recent flood of SPAM is pointing to web pages on the ROOT of Yahoo servers and redirects to the spammer's web site. To put accounts on the ROOT of these servers can only be done inside OR they have been hacked. |
| - guru - Wednesday, 05/03/06 16:38:04 EDT |
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Ellen-- I think since I started this, I ought to apologize to the group. Attn.: Group. Brethren and sistern, blacksmiths, welders, hard solderers, jewlelry makers, silvesmiths, tinsmiths, armourers, wheelwrights, foundryworkers, swordsmiths, blademakers, apprentices and associated tradesmen and craftspersons and all sundry lurkers. That was just a terrible lapse of taste I committed, a serious breach of etiquette and I know how shocking it was to your sensitive ears and not only to your ears, but to the ears of your mothers and grandmothers and your children and grandchildren, to find such language used in such a refined environment. I have gone out to the back kitchen and used the Fels Naptha, not that perfumy Camay, and washed my mouth out with soap. It shall never happen again, I promise. (exits offstage left, giggling) |
| Miles Undercut - Wednesday, 05/03/06 16:40:27 EDT |
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Stumps: Tyler, Asked and answered here on April 29th. I use a fur or pine box with plywood sides. It is light and sturdy. The hollow center keeps it from rocking. I used one outdoors long enough that it rotted out under me and I had to replace it. I used the same design and have built a dozen more like it. See our anvil stand iForge demo, it shows all types. |
| - guru - Wednesday, 05/03/06 16:43:36 EDT |
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SOFA, I noticed they have posted the page for this year and I have added it to our Calendar of events. Miles, its "ONLY" an 8-9 hour drive for us. . . Usually do it in one shot. Pooped out last year and made the return two days. |
| - guru - Wednesday, 05/03/06 16:59:01 EDT |
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Re: Large Chambersburg Hammer Foundations: I see in old Chambersburg drawing that they recommended giant oak cribbing almost 10 feet deep below the anvil, but the cost is very high. Instead, Chambersburg recommended years ago we use a vibration absorbing material made by Fabreeka. Our anvil sits atop a layered mixture of sheetmetal and Fabreeka sheets. This layered shock-absorber sits atop a large concrete pade. The actual hammer frame rides on two long 1' x 1' x 6' oak timbers treated with creosote. The two oak timber runners span across two other concrete slabs that straddle the anvil foundation. Our problem is that there are small holes in the floor between the baseplate of the hammer frame and the steel floor/cover plates surrounding the baseplate. The hot slag has a tendency to fall into those gaps and slits in the floor onto those two oak runner beams that support the baseplate sometimes causing a fire. So, John N above mentioned various treatments or coatings and I quote: "It is usual practice to have the whole area around the hammer checker (chequer ? sp) plated right up tight to the anvil block, this makes skating hot billets accross the floor / bogey access etc etc much easier and safer! As Jock mentioned a cap made from angle iron is fitted over the wedges between anvil and baseplate. We also seal the timbers with bitumen (odd really as its obviously flammable) or a 2 part polysulphide 'rubber' sealant (thioflex 600 PG or similar) - these prevent ingress of scale & water into the timbers or foundation mat. Really there is no excuse for a gap big enough for anything flamable to get under the hammer baseplate. Good 'housekeeping' is free, and if there isnt a mountain of scale around the anvil you can spot any problems early :) " You're telling me there should be no gaps in the floor? The forgers in the shop keep the hot slag swept up and cleaned but I don't know if we have 'checker plating.' What exactly is checker plating? Also, how do you apply bitumen to the oak, and what exactly is 'thioflex' sealant? |
| - Michael W - Wednesday, 05/03/06 17:01:47 EDT |
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I'm sorry, the timbers are 12' long. |
| - Michael W - Wednesday, 05/03/06 17:23:46 EDT |
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More Stumps: The BEST stumps are the free ones that are already cut exactly the right length for you. I've picked up a couple at curb side that were too short. . . If too long then you need a chain saw. I have a number of pine stumps from really big pines (over 20"). They are surprisingly heavy, crack free and make good stands. Hardwoods are best if they are going to be your anvil such as for dishing or delicate hot work. But pine works for this as well. |
| - guru - Wednesday, 05/03/06 17:44:34 EDT |
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One of Winston Churchill's dispatches as a Boer War reporter was about the correct military usage of a certain intensifier (always between adjective and noun; never before the adjective). He went on to win the Nobel Prize for literature (never mind arguably saving the free world with his tongue). But Jock wants to keep the site accessible to the broadest possible audiece, and that requires keeping it "clean." |
| Mike B - Wednesday, 05/03/06 18:08:42 EDT |
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I think checker plate usually passes as diamond plate in the U.S. |
| Mike B - Wednesday, 05/03/06 18:11:04 EDT |
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Jock-- Thanks, but when I checked, the Quad State date and location were up, but nothing further. I don't want to drive halfway across the continent to find I have to pay some outrageous fee such as ABANA wants for its seances to get in. Hey-- Impostor ALERT!!! Some vile wretch has appropriated my pseudonym and even my fake Email address to post fraudulent messages here over my fake name. He breached the decorum of the forum by employing a gutter acronym and as if that were not bad enough, after BurntForge remonstrated, which was only meet and proper, had the unspeakable effrontery to post a second phony note pretending to apologize. This has got to stop. We all know that such not only diverts our young from their blogs and IMing but it leads to such flapdoodle as Cracked Anvil and his endless prattle about electric anvils, pocket lasers and the hazard to domestic tranquility posed by scrao piles. We cannot tolerate such inane diversions from the serious and vitally important business of this venue-- how to mount leg vises, where to find anvils, whether post drills are still valid in today's fast-moving world, etc. |
| Miles Undercut - Wednesday, 05/03/06 18:28:40 EDT |
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Nippolini, If by PABANA you mean PABA the Pensylvania Artist- Blacksmith Association the next meeting is on June 3rd at Kutztown, PA. You can join right then. The main demonstrator will be Randy McDAniel but it is their Blacksmith Day open to the public so there will also be two other demo stations most of the day. I'll be traveling for a few days so I may also be guilty of no response if anyone emails me before the middle of next week. |
| SGensh - Wednesday, 05/03/06 19:28:39 EDT |
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SOFA Fees: Miles, I think the fees for SOFA have been $45 for the past couple years. Or at least that is what I paid last year. It may be discounted if paid in advance. Burning Timbers Hmmmm m. . . Typical installation with stringers under the hammer. The said coatings are usualy applied prior to installing the hammer. Thioflex is a brand name. A google search brought up the product at the top of the search. This is similar to the product Uro HOfi has his hammer heads installed with. Very durable stuff. The deck plating can be plain steel but it helps to have some traction protrusions or friction product on the plate. I'm sure there is a Building code or OSHA requirment for steel decking. Often there is a ledge on the hammer for the plates to rest on so that they do not need to be a perfect fit. A sealant like Thioflex would keep the plates from vibrating and making noise with every stroke of the hammer. Silicon caulk would do the same. The same can be applied in gaps between the anvil and hammer frame. On some of this I am working in the dark not seeing the exact installation. However, many forge shops had wood floors that fit right up to the hammer and were built on top of the support stringers. Swabbing or mopping down to keep the humidity in the wood up would prevent smouldering. As I mentioned borax is used to treat a number of substances to make it fire retardant. A fairly high temperature resistant paint such as a two part epoxy will greatly reduce the exterior flamability of wood which has a char point of only 350°F. Products like the silicon mentioned are good for 800°F. I seem to remember epoxy is quite high. We just had a discussion on specifications, standards and codes in the Hammer-In. I seem to remember the last time I worked in a Nuclear plant that some general plant code that applied to not just Nuclear plants but many other industries that required fire retardant lumnber in plants. . . In our case is also had to have it painted with a high temperature epoxy. |
| - guru - Wednesday, 05/03/06 19:49:40 EDT |
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Thanks Guru for the reply to my glass tools question. I am using mild steel to make a jack, but the blades seem to wear out over time and I wanted to see if there was a way to harden it but I can use something harder I guess. Franklin |
| Franklin - Wednesday, 05/03/06 20:15:13 EDT |
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test |
| Ellen - Wednesday, 05/03/06 20:53:31 EDT |
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While the Erie's we had in the valve forge shop were steam drop hammers, they used an oak pad between the anvil sub base and the concrete pier. Looked and smelled of creosote. As we are in the primo oak timber region, not too expensive. I believe these timbers were 12" x 12" by what ever lenght was needed. I would guess the little baby hammers of 1500#s were about 2 or 3' thick with the big hammers probably 10 to 12' thick. When a hammer was dug out the hole looked like an open cast copper mine, it was so big. We had packed dirt/scale right up tight to the anvil, so nothing could get to the timbers, and they were many feet down anyway. To my knowledge there is no specific mention in the OSHA standard re: checker plate. I suspect that the general duty clause wou be invoked if the inspector felt that a slick plate offered a hazard. |
| ptree - Wednesday, 05/03/06 20:56:31 EDT |
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I just got an anvil from a friend. It is of exelent quality (rings nicely) but was left outside for a few years Its face is pitted about 1/8 in. deep. Is there any way I can smooth the hammering surface without comprimising it? |
| - BNC - Wednesday, 05/03/06 21:56:39 EDT |
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S Gensh: I guess I will see it in the newsletter, but can You give details about the June 3rd meeting in Kutztown? |
| Dave Boyer - Wednesday, 05/03/06 22:23:55 EDT |
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Yeah, I meant PABA... oops! My attempt at crossing PA with ABANA. Heh. Anyways, I will probably be working that day. |
| - Nippulini - Wednesday, 05/03/06 22:30:58 EDT |
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2 part Pollysulfide: This product was invented to leakproof aircraft fuel tanks. After mixing a chemical cure takes place allowing thick layers to fully cure, something that doesn't happen readily with silicone or polyurethane caulk like Hoffi uses. It is oil proof when cured. Epoxy has a temp limit of 400F in structural aplications, not sure of ignition point. |
| Dave Boyer - Wednesday, 05/03/06 22:36:36 EDT |
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Interesting to note that Miles and Ellen got jumped on for a couple of old acronyms, while Dave Boyer's VERY explicit scatological terms were ignored. Sauce for the goose and all that, I suppose. Personally, I can abide the acronyms better than I can tolerate outright expletives tossed in gratuitously. And the "e-slang" of the callow youth who post without punctuation, spelling or grammar are an absolute affront to MY sensibilities. Even the coarsest Chaucerian epithet is preferrable to that. |
| vicopper - Wednesday, 05/03/06 23:30:11 EDT |
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Pitted anvil face: BNC, All you can do is grind, grind, grind. You may be surprised how shallow the pitting really is. For this kind of grinding you will need a heavy duty 7 to 7-1/2" angle grinder for the rough work and a belt sander or 4-1/2" angle grinder with a surface flap wheel for the fine work. You will also need safety glasses, ear plugs and should have a leather apron to protect you and your clothes. Do not try to remove 100% of the pitting or discoloration. Old anvils typicaly have a 1/2" hard steel face that may not be hard all the way through. The more material you take off the softer the anvil will be. The pits will show black spots that sometimes go quite deep but an not large enough to feel. It is counterproductive to try to chase them away. If you have never used an angle grinder before the do not grind on the flat of the wheel. They grind with the wheel at about a 45° angle to the surface. To prevent making dips and cuts you must keep the grinder moving constantly at a steady speed. Work length wise (wheel across the short direction moving the grinder with the length of the anvil) making numerous side by side passes, then short wise then diagonal then perpendicular to the diagonal and then length wise and repeat. Alternating directions will help keep the face flat. If the face has any dips or low spots pay attention and don't grind there! many people use these tools without LOOKING at what they are doing. A lot of people do not like the heavy grinders like the DeWalt Wildcat grinders becuase they claim they are hold to hold the weight. However, when grinding flat or horizontal surfaces you can let the weight ride on the wheel and the weight works FOR you. After the heavy grinding you can smooth out the grinding marks with the flap wheel or a belt sander. When smoothing steel like this 180 grit is FINE. You do not want finner grit. If all you have is a belt sander start with the coarsest belt you can get (60 grit?) Then change to 120 or 180 to finish. If you keep the cord out of the water and preferably keep the tool pluged into an outdoor GFI you can wet grind/sand the anvil. This makes the abrasive last MUCH longer and you will use about half or less of the belts you would use dry. Just splash some water on the surface and go. As it dries apply some more. When you are 100% finished with the face then grind the sides of the anvil for about the top 1" smooth. Then last smooth and re-radius the corners if they are now sharp. For dressing horns I prefer the belt sander only. It can be used perpendicular to the long axis and rocked back and forth. The results can be incredibly smooth and all sorts of flaws removed. You will want to turn the anvil upside down and finish the bottom of the horn for the last 2 or 3 inches. Note that it is normal for the tip of the horn to have about a 1/2" to 5/8" (13 to 16mm) flat. Do not try to make it sharper. If you do not have or cannot borrow these tools then you might try renting them. |
| - guru - Wednesday, 05/03/06 23:49:43 EDT |
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I guess I need to apoligise, I DID use the first of the original 7 words You cant say on TV. |
| Dave Boyer - Wednesday, 05/03/06 23:53:33 EDT |
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vicopper-- I was hacked. Security was somehow breached in the Email system here in my secret mountain lair. That was some fraudulent cur pretending to be I, with the arrant temerity to post a fake message using not only my fake name, if you can imagine such a thing, but my fake address, too. If there is anything I hate even more than coarse language, it's a faux fake. |
| Miles Undercut - Wednesday, 05/03/06 23:56:01 EDT |
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More Hammer Foundations: These have changed greatly over the years. I believe some of the old very deep foundations were intended for coastal areas where soils were not very good for this type application. Later hammer foundations were often huge concrete lined pits that where intended to float in the soil. Synthetic materials seperating the anvil from direct contact with the concrete. There are also inertia block foundations where vibration transmission is a problem. These have a huge block of concrete that weighs about what the hammer and anvil together weigh and is supported on springs and shock absorbers. For mechanical hammers the manufacturers recommended heavy concrete foundation blocks. Today many people run 100 pound air hammers on an un reinforced floor where a decade ago the same folks were digging huge pits for 25 and 50 pound Little Giants. For small hemmers the heavy foundations are not absolutely needed but they add efficiency to the hammer, reduce noise and vibration transmission. |
| - guru - Thursday, 05/04/06 00:01:30 EDT |
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i must confss thet i dont think using acrnums 65 yers old ta be ofnsve not so mch as thiss type of murdurr to ore langwitch not evn tha s wurd dave b ussed abuv dont ya think to, huh? |
| Ellen - Thursday, 05/04/06 01:43:07 EDT |
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do you have any articles in print on International Technical Ceramics Inc and their range of products. I would like to learn more. |
| ed higgins - Thursday, 05/04/06 06:28:51 EDT |
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Just one note of caution on the Guru's anvil sanding detail: Take the dang dust bag off the the belt sander first! Sparks against the cotton bag cause fire! Don't ask me how I know! |
| Bob H - Thursday, 05/04/06 06:55:22 EDT |
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I am looking for an anvil with a slightly curved top surface. Can someone give me an idea of where to find this? It will be used for hammering bronze cymbals, so the curved surface allows for the curve in the cymbal. I basically know nothing about anvils or where to find them. I've seen some 'stump' anvils that have the curved surface, but they are only 1 1/2" wide, and I would need something a little wider than that. Any help is appreciated. Thanks, Todd |
| Todd Crites - Thursday, 05/04/06 07:45:14 EDT |
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Hello, Do you know where the trademark "Euoranvil" anvils are made. China? Europe? U.S. I have iron and I'm now looking for a steel anvil at a reasonable price. Euroanvil was the best I've seen. Any thoughts?? Thanks a bunch- L.P. |
| Lucas Patsch - Thursday, 05/04/06 07:56:31 EDT |
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Ed Higgins, Go to the Anvilfire Store on the pulldown menu at the above right. There is information linked on that page. Todd Crites, Check some of the suppliers that advertise here, such as Pieh tool company or Centaur Forge. They sell metalsmithing stakes from Peddinghaus and others that should do what you want. The old Dixon #9 pattern raising stake would do the job nicely if you want a convex anvil, as would a large mushroom stake. If you want a concave anvil, look for an old Peter Wright anvil, as many of them, particularly in the 100# size range, were sagged in the middle by people using big hammers on them. A little concavity goes a pretty long way when planishing. Lucas Patsch, Euroanvils are made in Czechoslovakia, as are a number of other anvils these days. They are available through Blacksmith Supply, an Anvilfire advertiser. Go to advertisers on the pulldown menu to find them. |
| vicopper - Thursday, 05/04/06 08:28:15 EDT |
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Does anyone know the value of a Fisher anvil from 1912? |
| - Brad - Thursday, 05/04/06 08:45:37 EDT |
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Here's a crazy question, I hope there'a a reasonable answer. Why is it when I am forging, the workpiece takes a "thumbprint" of the hammer the way a print ought to, but the anvil face that may have some tiny pock holes in it causes the work to have "reverse" pockmarks? IN other words, if you pushed a piece of clay over the anvil face you'd get little bumps where the holes are. But with metal I am getting more pock holes. Is it trapped air? I kind of like the appearance the steel gets when it picks up these little anomalies. |
| - Nippulini - Thursday, 05/04/06 09:10:23 EDT |
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TNG, Normally that is from scale under the work. It is the reason some smiths use water on the anvil. The steam blows the scale out from under the work. It is not a common practice and can be very noisey (as loud as a rifle discharge) if the work is slighty concave. |
| - guru - Thursday, 05/04/06 09:37:21 EDT |
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FIsher Price: Brad, Anvil prices vary greatly depending on size and condition. Generaly anvils have no greater collectors of antique value strictly by age unless they are over 200 years old. Some later anvils are collectors items but do not sell for a great deal more than a "user". Condition includes wear and tear, rust pitting, edge chipping, losse or seperated welds. Real anvils in very poor condition or poorly repaired can be worth as little as scrap iron. Example. At our recent CSI Hammer-In a fellow had a 1600's or 1700's hornless English anvil. They are a beautiful shape and highly collectable. However, most are badly swayed from heavy use. This one had been sandblasted and machined about 1/2" removing almost all the steel face plate and leaving square corners. Value? Only $50 to $100 as a curiosity. If it had not been machined and left with rusty it would be worth $800 to $1500 as an antique. Your Fisher in good condition may be worth two or three dollars a pound. In bad condition including ANY seperated welds, $50 tops. |
| - guru - Thursday, 05/04/06 09:48:53 EDT |
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Concave Anvil Surfaces: Todd, for working sheet steel and especialy non-ferrous the absolute best thing is a hardwood stump. Shallow depressions can be carved or burned into the wood. The radius wants to be larger than the finished product and should be no more than about 1/5 of the circumference. The advantage of wood is that it is less likely to mar the work. However, you CAN impress the wood grain into soft metals like copper or pure aluminium. The stump shown in the linked NEWS article has seen years of heavy use. Example in use on steel Note that softwood like pine also works for this purpose and if you do not have access to sections of tree trunk you can purchase 2 by 10's or 2 by 12 framing lumber and laminate up a block. Use a good glue and screw the laminations together as well. I use predrilled and counter sunk holes and keep the screws away from the exterior (work) surfaces. Then I clamp as well while the glue sets. I've found one of the easiest ways to make depressions is with an angle grinder or body sander. The radius of a 7" or worn wheel is about right for most of this type work. You can also carve them with a gouge but do not make them too deep. Blacksmiths often make a depression on the fly when they need to make a spoon shape. They just take the thin heated metal and start working it on a piece of wood. As the wood burns the depression is formed. The other tool that is used for this purpose is called a "swage block". Note however that most available have too deep of depressions. After a piece is dished in a depression it is worked over a mushroom or ball stake to finish. These are readily available and can also be fabricated from large ball bearings or trailer hitch balls. |
| - guru - Thursday, 05/04/06 10:20:14 EDT |
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Lucas, We have been using a Euro Anvil HARD over 5 years in a production shop- we are happy with it |
| Ron Childers - Thursday, 05/04/06 11:07:18 EDT |
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Thanks for the input on the stumps. On the hacking, it is a fellony last time. If you can on your computer do a system search of all internet files. But first find out what your IP # is. That way you can report The Hacker to the police Then they should take it from there to catch him/her. About the E-slang. Do my eyes decieve me someone hates the slang of todays youth just as much as me? |
| - Tyler - Thursday, 05/04/06 12:09:27 EDT |
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Hi i'm trying to buy a "rose" type punch for riveting brake linnings on my old fordson tractor,the rivets are copper and i'm told this is the tool for the job, but where will i find one ? help!! mike |
| mike mead - Thursday, 05/04/06 12:29:03 EDT |
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Michael - Foundation. Is this an 'A' frame hammer then? We use the Thioflex or bitumen to seal around the base of the anvil (around the fabreeka pads) - not seal areas around the hammer baseplate as you describe. (though if the flash point of the thioflex is high enough it may work in this application) I would check before useing epoxy as I recall once its lit it stays lit! |
| - John N - Thursday, 05/04/06 13:06:25 EDT |
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tyler cant u c how mch shrtr this is than typing all out like b4 helps if u skp al punctuation & caps |
| Ellen - Thursday, 05/04/06 13:09:25 EDT |
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TGN - I dont think its air since its almost infinatly compresable ( I read a paper on the subject in drop forging a while back ) Metal does have a tendancy to want to move up rather than down for some reason, (but I dont know why). When making dies for drop hammers its common practice to put the deeper impression in the top die ~ might be related in some way? Ill try and dig the paper out if I get chance. |
| - John N - Thursday, 05/04/06 13:19:53 EDT |
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Ellen-- raise the back sight a bit. |
| Miles Undercut - Thursday, 05/04/06 13:52:26 EDT |
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I was watching a tv show about restoring classic cars, and saw them bending metal pipe for an exaust system. I want to know what keeps metal from cracking or tearing when they put it in the bending machine? Thank you |
| Mark - Thursday, 05/04/06 14:01:02 EDT |
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I don't type like that when I am on here or atleast I try to correct my self when I do. I know how confusing the abbreviations can be. Ellen Thats a very confusing letter you wrote took me about 5 mins to figure out the whole message. Thanks for the brain teaser. And by the way even though its shorter it makes you look like an idiot typing like a person who dropped out of the 5th grade or so. I should know the answer to marks post but I am drawing a blank. I watch alot of the old classic repair shows. |
| - Tyler - Thursday, 05/04/06 15:08:49 EDT |
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Pipe bending: Mark, It is simply the way the pipe is supported and gripped. Then they do not make bends tighter than is possible and on tight bends the dies push some material in (the pipe is no longer round) so that the pipe does not wrinkle. Other than that it is the fact that steel is ductile and can be bent, stretched and formed cold. |
| - guru - Thursday, 05/04/06 15:09:04 EDT |
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Texturing: TGN, Besides normal scale some folks increase the texture by slightly overheating the steel, then lightly forging to breakup and embed some of the scale then reheat to melt the uneven scale then forge and repeat the process several times. The end result is an evenly "burnt", "distressed" or aged surface which some folks like. I am not crazy about it because it looks like the faux texturing applied to rolled steel hinges and other 1960's chic items. ort anything made by cold rolling and labeled "colonial" by production hardware makers. |
| - guru - Thursday, 05/04/06 15:17:30 EDT |
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Gotta watch those Fisher-Price anvils; They'll melt on ya every time. (ye grynne) |
| 3dogs - Thursday, 05/04/06 15:25:54 EDT |
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"Rose" Rivet Punch Mike, This is a standard "hollow rivet header". About the only people I know that use these any more are leather workers. I looked in McMaster-Carr and they had standard rivet sets but they will not work on brake rivets. Normally these rivets need to be headed using a press to assure good alignment so the read forms evenly. The end of the tool looks like a little doughnut was pushed into it. The metal should roll over without splitting (making a rose) but when the rivets are too long or the tool is worn the metal often splits. The last time I needed brakes hand done I found an old timer with the tools that knew how to use them. The last time I needed this type of rivet set was for snaps on a convertable top and I made my own. . . |
| - guru - Thursday, 05/04/06 15:33:19 EDT |
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Guru, sounds like a smaller version of a grommet setter---I have some grommets for my tarps that use a 2 piece form one is the anvil and theother has the center tapered "spike" and the curved former around it. Thomas |
| Thomas P - Thursday, 05/04/06 16:33:59 EDT |
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im having trouble finding anvils do you know of any place i can go to |
| robert tejeda - Thursday, 05/04/06 17:42:07 EDT |
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Robert Tejeda, I believe that the answers to this question from the previous several times you have asked it still hold true. If you are not going to read the answers why bother to ask? Thomas |
| Thomas P - Thursday, 05/04/06 18:44:48 EDT |
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Tyler: glad it kept you entertained. But I must plead not guilty. It appears a poltergeist assaulted my computer in the wee hours and committed the dastardly (is that o.k?) deed! Miles: I've got the sights set perfectly. Point blank range. Mike: Tandy Leather sells all sorts of neat leather working punches, and they have an online catalog. Perhaps one of those would suffice for the task at hand. Also, you might check with a couple of the online tractor parts and tools suppliers. Some of those old beasts from the 30's and 40's are still being run every day. |
| Ellen - Thursday, 05/04/06 19:19:20 EDT |
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Ellen-- Sorry. From here it looked like the shots were going a bit high, over the target's head. |
| Miles Undercut - Thursday, 05/04/06 20:41:18 EDT |
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Miles, could be, shouldn't think too high but mebbe I'm wrong. Wouldn't be the first time. At last count I was at mistake 3,710,846. And still climbing. Grin! |
| Ellen - Thursday, 05/04/06 20:59:01 EDT |
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For old Ford parts and tools a good place to go is Little Dearborn in Minneapolis, MN http://www.littledearborn.com/ Thats where we get parts for the 38 Ford cabover tower truck |
| - Hudson - Thursday, 05/04/06 21:25:41 EDT |
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Hey, that's my line, Ellen! I'll expect a royalty check in the post forthwith. (grin) I must admit that Miles' coaching line was one of the best of its type that I've seen in a long time. Always a pleasure to watch a master at work or play. I will cheerfully borrow that quip, (with all due attribution, of course) for use in my own repartee. |
| vicopper - Thursday, 05/04/06 21:48:48 EDT |
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Dave Boyer, I don't have the last PABA newsletter with me but it's listed in there. (I'm down in North Carolina for a flat die class at the powerhammer school) I'm sure there will be more details in the new issue. Brake rivet tools- try Big Flats Rivets web site. They list the copper rivets for brake shoes but I don't remember if they have tooling too. |
| SGensh - Thursday, 05/04/06 22:03:33 EDT |
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Mark : To elaborate on Guru's answer, annealed steel has about 20 to 25% elasticity, formed parts of all types count on this in order to be manufactured. This is refered to as "formability" or "workability". The part will work harden while being formed, and if a severe enough operation is being done anealing may be required to complete the part. |
| Dave Boyer - Thursday, 05/04/06 22:23:21 EDT |
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What does anybody who knows about JB weld think about using it to attatch a tool steel plate to a piece of 4" sq x 24" mild steel? To be used as an anvil. |
| Tyler Murch - Thursday, 05/04/06 22:24:43 EDT |
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Tyler, Brittle glue that only has 1/20 the strength of what you are gluing. . . About the second or third sharp blow the entire plate would pop off. |
| - guru - Thursday, 05/04/06 23:00:18 EDT |
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ˇMuchas gracias! |
| Miles Undercut - Thursday, 05/04/06 23:00:42 EDT |
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Tyler: Work right against the end of the mild steel, dress it with a grinder as needed. |
| Dave Boyer - Friday, 05/05/06 00:07:51 EDT |
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Many years ago as a child my dad always took bush hog blades to the only Blacksmith in town to have the heated and beat a edge back on them, well the Blacksmith passed away and I can't find anyone that does that art any more. I was wondering the process in a short version of how that was done and I am wiling to try that for myself. If you could please expain the process from beginning to end including the tempering and what to u |