| WELCOME to the anvilfire Guru's Den - V. 3.0 |
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THIS is a forum for questions and answers about blacksmithing and general metalworking. Ask the Guru any reasonable question and he or one of his helpers will answer your question, find someone that can, OR research the question for you. This is an archive of posts from May 9 - 16, 2006 on the Guru's Den |
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MO' LEG VISE WASHERS: How 'bout a tool post rocker washer off'n a lathe. They come in various sizes. |
| 3dogs - Tuesday, 05/09/06 00:54:24 EDT |
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I was hoping someone knew where i could find a good pattern for making a mace with 5 flanges. |
| maxpress - Tuesday, 05/09/06 02:31:48 EDT |
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The T-88 was bought for me at a West Marine supply store. It is a structural epoxy that is used for woodworking -- I have also used it on stone with amazing results. |
| T. Gold - Tuesday, 05/09/06 03:51:17 EDT |
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Hello anvilfire Guru Would a leaf blower be a suitalbe a wind source for a forge .(EG SIZES, SHAPES ect) . I am keen to make a few gifts for my father and freinds I reckon that it will be fun 2 do . So please reply soon cheerz simo |
| Simon - Tuesday, 05/09/06 05:57:34 EDT |
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Frank ,the MIG worked as far as I can tell, The washer is cleaned up and the vise is back together and all appears to be well. My friend heated the entire washer, not just where the break and fracture, too get it to close. After the heat was applied we found another hidden fracture that the heat exposed. He only welded what was needed and no more. The ends of the exposed brake did have a very defined heavy grain appearance. So it was decided that if washer puddled, work would stop and I would take it to a shop that does O/A torch welding. So now it’s just a matter of using it to see if it’s going to fail. |
| daveb - Tuesday, 05/09/06 08:19:40 EDT |
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Leaf Blower: Simon, Way too much air. Will blow the fire completely out of the fire pot. Also much too noisy. . . part of solid fuel fire maintenance is listening to the sound of the fire. The same blower with a low speed electric motor or rigged to hand crank at about 500 to 1000 RPM would probably do. To calculate hand crank speed assume 40 PRM top speed at the hand cranked end. Blow hair driers are about the right amount of air for full blast. The fire is operated at much less most of the time. However, coal fires need some pressure (known as head) along with the relatively low volume. Larger diameter fans have more head than small ones for the same volume. You can buy actual forge blowers from our advertisers. |
| - guru - Tuesday, 05/09/06 09:03:41 EDT |
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Greetings, I've been trolling the site and love it but still have a question. I'm new to the site so maybe this question has been asked before. I have an old anvil that is enormous(almost 300 lbs) with a 1 1/4" hardy hole and I'm having a real problem finding any hardies, fullers, or anything that will fit it. Someone suggested using a piece of square tubing to fill the gap and use 1" shanks but I'm concerned about jamming and snapping my anvil heal. Any suggestions? |
| Robert - Tuesday, 05/09/06 10:40:23 EDT |
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ANvil Bushing: Robert in an anvil that size it is unlikely that you can break the heel. A bushing would want to be a loose slip fit with a large flange. The hardie would also want to be a slip fit. Making a bushing of this type requires some luck finding the right material and a bit of grinding and filing until it fits right. Standard 1-1/4" square tubing has a wall under an eighth and 1" will fit it nicely. However, I am not sure if it will fit your hardie hole. Another way to make it is to piece the bushing from angle iron or flat plate and weld together. Bushing a large hole is easier than reducing all your shanked tools. I have a collection that runs up to a 1.5" shank! Do not use tapered shanks in hardie holes. |
| - guru - Tuesday, 05/09/06 10:57:00 EDT |
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Guru, I tried to forge the "iron core" this morning. It crumbled real nicely at an orange yellow heat. Was it cast? I didn't do a spark test. |
| - Nippulini - Tuesday, 05/09/06 11:01:01 EDT |
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Nip, it may have been sintered or pressed iron powder. If it was not a thin flat part it may have been made from iron powder as it is readily available. For some magnetic purposes it is made like plastic "refrigerator" magnets with plastic binder. |
| - guru - Tuesday, 05/09/06 11:06:51 EDT |
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Robert: Sleeves seem your solution. Just find two pieces of 1/8 |
| - Ken Scharabok - Tuesday, 05/09/06 11:21:33 EDT |
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Plastic! Ah.. that would explain the strange smoke coming from the forge during the heat. The piece is about 1/2" thick and is U shaped square. Can I at least weld with it? Or is it ornamental garbage? |
| - Nippulini - Tuesday, 05/09/06 11:28:33 EDT |
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Maxpress, start with a strip of wrought iron about 4-5 inches wide, 1/4 inch thick *at* *most* and the length is dependent on how far out the flanges will stick out (take twice the length it will stick out for each flange plus the spacing between the flanges + forge welding allowance) Heat it in the forge and bend it at one end over onto itself so it's doubled over about as long as you want the flange to stick out plus an inch for a tab, Forge weld the folded section---except for the bottom inch and then hot cut the basic flange shape you want and dress with the hammer. Mover over the correct spacing and repeat until you have a strip with 5 flanges sticking out. then heat and bend around the handle mandrel and forge weld the ends together (remember the 1" tab at the start?). The file and polish to suit yourself. I'm sure that you would have mentioned your tools and skills if you wanted to do it a different way---right? Thomas |
| Thomas P - Tuesday, 05/09/06 12:11:19 EDT |
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Nip, Tis curious technical garbage. . . |
| - guru - Tuesday, 05/09/06 12:19:32 EDT |
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Simon, a leaf blower is great fun for a forge blower, especially if you want to shower a group of people with your fire. Despite warnings from anvilfire and other sites, I had to try it myself to see what would happen. I like to experiment with things, even if I know they are dangerous. So, if anyone has an idea they are too wary to try, let me know about it- Grin! |
| - Rob - Tuesday, 05/09/06 13:28:15 EDT |
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Well, so far the "Gorilla Glue" is holding up nicely. I'm not much of a torture-tester, but I've given some large tree stumps some nice hard whacks with it, and it isn't loose. I'll try out a few other things later on, and I'll update on how it's holding up. |
| - Rob - Tuesday, 05/09/06 13:31:18 EDT |
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Chain Mail- Check out theringlord.com for all types of pre-cut rings as well as wire to coil your own. I made a halberk from galvinized wire available at any hardware store. Also if you are a "Lord of the Rings" fan, check out the special features on the DVD for other options. |
| - BT - Tuesday, 05/09/06 13:35:34 EDT |
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TGN, In addition to iron powder, your ballast core could well have been ferrite. Ferrite is used a lot in inductors (like ballasts.) Essentially fine ground fire scale either sintered together or in a composite. A few turns of a power cord through a ferrite torus has solved many Radio Frequency Interference (RFI) problems. |
| John Lowther - Tuesday, 05/09/06 15:11:48 EDT |
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Hello, I came across this anvil on ebay and wondered if anyone one knew anything about these. item 6278161699 Does ductile Iron really maake a decent anvil? |
| Blu - Tuesday, 05/09/06 17:07:02 EDT |
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Ductile is a type of cast iron that has been modified to be less brittle. However it's pretty soft and would not be my choice for an anvil. It would be much better than a plain gray cast iron anvil. If they had done it using something like the Fisher process where it would have a steel face I would be much happier. Thomas |
| Thomas P - Tuesday, 05/09/06 17:28:22 EDT |
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Blu: The third photograph of the original anvil is very hard to see, but the top plate appears to be in VERY bad condtion. If this one is straight ductile iron, like pipe fittings, then I would expect it to be in much the same conditon with any heavy use. Listing does not say if it is straight ductile iron or a composite, nor if it has been heat treated. It is also offered straight from the foundry without any finishing work. Like a blind date, I doubt it is as pretty as its picture. Also note it has a 5/8" hardy hole - essentially a square pritchel. Current bidding is at $4 pound. For about the same money you can purchase one made of a much higher quality steel from one of the anvilfire advertisers. Just my opinion: He will sell a couple of them as a novelty item, but that is about all. |
| Ken Scharabok - Tuesday, 05/09/06 19:08:27 EDT |
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Combination Swage/Anvil: First, this is not going to be a first class anvil, ever. As Thomas noted it is the wrong material. Second, the pattern, while different just does not have the feel of an old design (see link below). Third, the original appears to be heavily damaged the way a cast iron anvil will fail. As a casting similar to a swage block it could have been made anywhere and within the last 100 years. The shape is a combination of a French anvil and a Dutch swage block (where is my catalog when I need it??). But the design just does not have the feeling of a French anvil. The feet are peculiar little things if the photo displays them properly. Check out the ones on Jöel Becker's web site. There is one on the second page of anvils that has a dish impression in the side but the whole has a great deal of style as do most of the French anvils. It has the graceful wear and tear of a good OLD anvil as well. . couteaux.free.fr/ If you don't read French, go to: Les Enclumes, c'est beau... je collectionne... and Photos d'enclumes d'amis What you CAN do with a ductile iron anvil is hard face it. Add about $300 in materials and a week's labor and you will have a half decent anvil. At the current ebay price you can get a real anvil. . . (175 pound Euroanvil). Current prices on ductile iron swage blocks is about $3/lb. So if you want the thing for a swage block then the price (~$600) is too high on this one. This thing is a curiosity for collectors of curiosities. It is a new casting which means there will be more and the price should drop. |
| - guru - Tuesday, 05/09/06 19:28:12 EDT |
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Thanks for the replies It looked like an interesting combination of swage block and anvil I've got a pretty limited space to set up my shop in so it cought my eye. I did pick up an 80 pound farriers anvil at an auction a few weeks ago that i've been playing with and man does it ring loud. It looks pretty recent and has minnisotta written in raised letters on the side. I can't quite make out the company name though. Would it be safe to guess it's cast steel? |
| Blu - Tuesday, 05/09/06 19:41:32 EDT |
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Probably |
| - guru - Tuesday, 05/09/06 20:01:59 EDT |
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I do feel bad for the fella who likely spent serious dollars on a pattern and the casting of those ductile anvils. I am with Ken. He will sell a couple as a novelty then loose his shirt on his investment. Really too bad. I wish he stoped here to get some direction from guru first before blowing his jack of green on his project. |
| - Burnt Forge - Tuesday, 05/09/06 20:41:21 EDT |
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I just completed my first knife today. Do I hammer a blade on it or grind one on using a bench grinder before I temper? |
| - BNC - Tuesday, 05/09/06 20:41:51 EDT |
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At least this ASO was American made this time...LOLOL. |
| - Burnt Forge - Tuesday, 05/09/06 20:42:28 EDT |
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Nice French Blacksmith Website. I am enjoying it very much. :) |
| - Burnt Forge - Tuesday, 05/09/06 20:44:38 EDT |
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BNC, by "hammer" do you mean shape the blade? There will be some grinding or filing needed eventually. I try to do as much shaping as possible with my forge before grinding. Could you be a bit more clear on what you mean, please? ---Rob |
| - Rob - Tuesday, 05/09/06 20:47:19 EDT |
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Just want ot (listen in). Peace ! DR Boulais |
| Denis R Boulais - Tuesday, 05/09/06 20:51:00 EDT |
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I was lookin' at a rr track anvil on ebay that just sold for $86.00 (I only went to $46.00)!! Maybe one of you saw it. What intrigued me was the overly long horn. Since I couldn't buy that one, I went ahead and made one out of some scrap rr track I had laying around. After 4 hours of by guess and by gosh, it's done. It's purpose is mainly for mounting in my vise and doing small metal bending and hammer finishing small pieces of iron and brass. Now the question. I cut the basic shape with a oxy acet torch, filled a couple of cut lines back towards the flat face with regular mild welding rod (the repairs were on the bottom, I just did it for the asthetics) and finished it with a grinder, file and sandpaper. I let everything air cool at all stages (except for one cutting proceedure when I got impatient and quenched when it was at black heat). So, should I reharden the anvil or is it a low enough carbon content that I'd just be wasting my time considering the work I'm planning to do with it? |
| Thumper - Tuesday, 05/09/06 21:15:14 EDT |
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BNC: I don't understand. You said>I just completed my first knife today<, and then you ask a question of how to put a "blade" on it? |
| Bob H - Tuesday, 05/09/06 21:17:55 EDT |
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Thumper, RR track is generally medium high carbon steel. Go ahead and harden/temper it. Use warm oil for the hardening and temper at about 400°F for a couple hours. If that doesn't get it hard enough, try very warm water for the quench. |
| vicopper, Chairman - Tuesday, 05/09/06 22:08:19 EDT |
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RR-Rail Steel: Thumper, you need to be careful how you treat this stuff. It varies from 55 to 75 point carbon. It will harden very hard and will quench crack if quenched when over heated or unevenly heated. It is normally in the normalized (unhardened but not annealed) condition and is still quite hard. The biggest problem I have had with RR-rail is cold shuts from the smearing of the metal by the RR-wheels. There are often cracks as well from the heavy use. For a horn type tool I would not harden it. |
| - guru - Tuesday, 05/09/06 22:08:21 EDT |
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Is there any difference in the firepot between a coal forge and a charcoal forge or are they both the same? You would'nt need a clinker breaker for lump charcoal would you? I was also wondering where I can purchase Hofi's hand hammer video. Thanks. |
| Rich33 - Tuesday, 05/09/06 22:49:05 EDT |
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Vicopper, Thanks for the reply, I think I'll stick with guru's idea of just using it in the "normalized state" cause it's not going to take a pounding in the traditional blacksmith sense of the word and after 4 hrs work I sure wouldn't want to break it with a sloppy blow. As far as cold cold shuts, I've ground down the visible burr on one side of the track and dressed the opposite side just in case. |
| Thumper - Tuesday, 05/09/06 23:02:28 EDT |
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Rich33: Hofi's DVD or VHS video can be purchased from a seller on eBay; he has them all the time. Hofi recommends him. Traditional firepots for charcoal had a side blast, and held a deeper fire. That being said, I've used my coal firepot (Centaur) for charcoal, and it worked well. A softer air blast helps. |
| Ellen - Wednesday, 05/10/06 01:39:42 EDT |
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On air compressors, what is the difference between cfm and scfm - what does the s represent? |
| Ken Scharabok - Wednesday, 05/10/06 07:33:31 EDT |
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Ken, The "s" is for standard. It means the air is measured at 1 atmosphere pressure and 68 degrees Farenheit. The plain cfm measure can be the volume under any conditions. not often used is acfm which means the volume is measured at the actual conditions of output, which might be 125 psi and 125 degrees F. If not scfm the conditions of measurment should be specified. Pressure measurments have some quirks too. pressures are given in either psig or psia. the gauge reading is psig. since the pressure is not realy zero, but just equal to the atmosphere when the gauge reads zero, the absolute pressure is psia=psig +atmosphere. |
| John Odom - Wednesday, 05/10/06 08:25:55 EDT |
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BNC, I think he means he forged a knife blank and would like to put a cutting blade edge on it. I hammer the thin edged into my knives BEFORE the blank is finished. Heat, quench, temper. Then I use a variety of grinders and grit to acheive a razor sharp edge. I begin with a bench grinder, then angle grinder, then belt sander, then wet grinding wheel. Depending on the blade and its designated use, I'll hone the blade. |
| - Nippulini - Wednesday, 05/10/06 08:44:21 EDT |
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Am doing an eduction day at a local historic site. Read somewhere that only square stock was available in the 1800's. Is this true or in 1850 would round stock be available? Thank you Patrick |
| Patrick - Wednesday, 05/10/06 08:47:34 EDT |
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To do any gas law calculations or to convert acfm to scfm you have to use the absolute pressure. The standard atmospheric pressure is 14.7 psi. usualy this is rounded to 15 psi. So in most calculations one uses the indicated gauge pressure +15. |
| John Odom - Wednesday, 05/10/06 09:06:13 EDT |
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What I meant to ask is how would I put an edge on a blank, do I temper before or after I grind an edge on, and at what temperature do I temper my blade? Sorry if I was not clear. I have only been ironworking for about a month. |
| - BNC - Wednesday, 05/10/06 09:20:03 EDT |
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John, Isn't scfm also measured at sea level? |
| Ron Childers - Wednesday, 05/10/06 09:28:28 EDT |
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Square and Round: Hmmmm good question and I do not have a positive answer. There were huge changes in industry during that period with steam power coming in. But there were also large water powered rolling mills such as Tredegar Ironworks in Richmond VA. Tredegar was producing RR-Rail in the 1830's so it can be assumed that they could also roll round stock and other structural sections. Factory drawn (round) wire has been available since the 1300's in brass. In most shops today rectangular stock is more common than round but round is still commonly used. I would say the same was more true in the 1850's in some shops but where chain was made round would be more common. I would not say as an absolute that round stock was not available. |
| - guru - Wednesday, 05/10/06 09:59:52 EDT |
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Patrick, I would ask this on the arch-metals mailing list; but a quick study of Diderot's encyclopedia might give a quick answer. Rolling of iron had been around about 200 years then so I would admit the possibility that rounds were available but I would have to dig for the info. BNC, generally you leave the edge at least as thick as a US dime before heat treat, perhaps thicker if you have trouble with decarb. If you get it too thin it's more prone to decarb, warp or crack during heat treat---tempering is only the *last* stage of heat treat. You will want to normalize it several times and then heat till non-magnetic and quench to harden and *then* temper it back to trade some of the hardness for toughness and then finish it off. Of course to get exact temperatures we HAVE TO KNOW THE ALLOY! But most simple steels will work with the non-magnetic point, high alloy steels you HAVE TO KNOW THE ALLOY! as many of them require quite high temp soaks to put the carbon in solution. To figure out what you quench it in you HAVE TO KNOW THE ALLOY! With still air, moving air, warm oil, water, brine being the usual choices going from most gentle to most intensive. When guessing you usually try warm oil and if it doesn't harden enough re-do it with a water or brine quench. But really to get a decent answer to questions like this we HAVE TO KNOW THE ALLOY! Thomas |
| Thomas P - Wednesday, 05/10/06 10:39:55 EDT |
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Ron: Elevation affects pressure. 1 Atm. press is the standardized pressure at sea level, so scfm at standard pressure ie effectively sea level in other words. |
| John Odom - Wednesday, 05/10/06 10:41:07 EDT |
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Patrick, I fired off a post on arch-metals for you. Charcoal firepots while you can burn charcoal in a coal firepot it helps to raise the sides with a couple of firebricks to make it narrower and deeper "ethnic forges" often are built to feed in the charcoal while not letting it spread to the sides. Wygers has a picture of one in "The Modern Blacksmith" I hope it was included in "The Complete Modern Blacksmith" Neo-tribal smiths have build a nice charcoal forge---do a search for washtub forge to find their sites. Thomas |
| Thomas P - Wednesday, 05/10/06 11:37:30 EDT |
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RR track Its great for small projects but its a pain to quench it and get it to not crack have fun with that one |
| - Tyler - Wednesday, 05/10/06 11:42:32 EDT |
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I have a product I am reciving cold rolled (1040) We recieve it straight, 240" cut it to various lengths, than heat treat it, during heat treat we get sever warping (0.030") Any ideas on what is causeing it or how to resolve the issue? |
| Dan Wall - Wednesday, 05/10/06 12:12:34 EDT |
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Dan, regarding your warping problems you'll get a lot more help if you provide some additional details of the heat treating - induction hardening, electric furnace, gas furnace? what austenitizing temperature, what quenchant, & what temperature is the quenchant? temper temperatures ? 0.030 " over what length of stock? How does the stock enter the quenchant? Also, what is the bar diameter you're using? Why cold rolled - hot rolled would be less expensive & have fewer stresses going into heat treat, though the cross section wouldn't be as precise. You've got at least 3 metallurgists who look in on this board on occasion, but we all need as much information as possible to make an educated guess as to the problem & steps you could take to correct it. |
| - Gavainh - Wednesday, 05/10/06 12:40:10 EDT |
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Actually, if one gets RR track that has been run on, the crown is already like the proverbial woodpecker lips, due to work hardening. I destroyed a $150 shell end mill cutter, because the guy wouldn't believe how hard it was, but should have known better. That's OK, though, it was his mill, and his cutter. |
| 3dogs - Wednesday, 05/10/06 12:49:59 EDT |
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Warp: Dan, this can be caused by many things. However the most common in cold roll is the stressed surface. Simply cutting the surface off the side of a piece of cold finished steel will cause a severe warp. If the steel was rolled in a coil prior to delivery to the warehouse it was then straightened. This leaves more tension in one side than the other due to bending and straightening. Uneven heating can also be the cause. Parts heated on a surface or conveyor may have a temperature differential. When making parts from CF steel you often need to full anneal as part of the heat treat to remove the cold working stresses. Ocassionaly this requires the parts to be straightened again prior to final heat treat. In the worst case you may have to straighten them after. The as-delivered condition of steel can vary depending on how it was handled. This often causes fits for the manufacturer. |
| - guru - Wednesday, 05/10/06 12:50:02 EDT |
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Warp 2: Dan, also see Gavainh's post above. |
| - guru - Wednesday, 05/10/06 12:52:59 EDT |
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Knife Making: BNC, Everything depends on having a plan, your equipment and as Thomas noted, the alloy. Also the condition of the blank. Many tool steels are carefully annealed and are ready to harden and temper. You pay a lot for that initial anneal. Being fully annealed may be something the small shop cannot do and this means that you could not drill holes in the tang, saw or other cold operations. Modern bladesmiths often grind a knife just short of final polishing and then heat treat using a salt bath. The liquid salt keeps air away from the steel so there is no oxidation while heating. Few of us have a salt pot but they are becoming more common. Even neophyt knife makers may have one if they have studied the available books and are going all out to setup shops. Optionaly you can rough shape the blade, harden and temper it then finish grinding and polishing. This requires keeping the steel cool while grinding to prevent drawing the temper further. Often folks that make knives out of files start with a hard file, grind to shape and end with a file hard knife. This is typicaly too hard but it has been done thousands of times. I suspect the edges often get reduced in hardness by the grinding heat. . . Another method is using old heavy saw blades. This is better as the steel is closer to the right alloy and is already heat treated close to what a knife should be. Many good knives have been made this way in primitive shops. Many modern alloys are air hardening in knife thin sections so hardening is a simple heating and air cooling after forging. The steel is tempered immediately after hardening (in all cases). Some air hardening have very high temper temperaturs so it is difficult to hurt them while grinding. However others are just as sensitive to temper temperatures as common carbon steel. We cannot tell you what temper temperature to use other than a minimum of about 350-375°F. This leaves most steels as hard as they are going to get but DOES temper the steel. Beyond that may be too much or too little. Finished blades are also hardened in stainless foil wrap to exclude air and clay has been used for the same purpose. There are many ways to heat treat. As I started, you need a plan. A bench grinder is not a particularly good tool to grind a knife on unless it is unusualy large. It also requires the wheel to be repeatedly dressed with a diamond to produce a good surface. Most blade grinding from blanks is done with belt sanders for a variety of reasons. One is you have both flat and curved surfaces to work against. The other is the blets are easily changed to change grits and renew the surface. The greater surface area also lasts longer. They also can run cooler than a wheel but not necessarily so. You can make a blade by many methods and with very few or a lot of tools. I've known makers to use milling machines and lathes to shape a blade. High production operations use punch presses to blank out the blades. Some makers buy laminated steel "Damascus" blanks and start from there. Heat treating involves several steps that can be done in a forge if using the right materials. However some modern steels often need careful temperature controls and atmospheres to properly heat treat. It gets worse. If you have managed to forge weld a laminated steel billet then not only are you now the bladesmith but the steel manufacturer and metallurgist. Given the exact starting alloys and the exact process there are a few experts that can suggest a possible heat treatment. They will tell you that you will have to experiment. Now you are into R&D. The same goes for an unknown alloy. If you pickup a spring, RR-spike, saw blade or other steel you are now dealing with mystery steel. You can start with a guess based on what the object was but there is less than a one in four chance that you will be even close. So you test and play metallurgist. Knowledge is the key ingrediant to both question and answer. Asking "what next" leaves us in the dark as much as you are. |
| - guru - Wednesday, 05/10/06 13:00:01 EDT |
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There is an old riding lawn mower sitting in my back yard, and I'd like to make some knives from the blade. Does anyone know what steel the blade would be made out of? From the information I have, it is at least 20 years old. I'm not sure of the brand, because it either faded off or was never marked. Thanks in advance! ---Rob |
| - Rob - Wednesday, 05/10/06 13:09:15 EDT |
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Rob, Its Junkyard Steel. See FAQ on same. It is probably about a 1040 steel. But it is not really that old as lawn mowers go and many have soft steel alloy blades to reduce libility problems. The alloy is often for wear resistance (if the maker cared). Older blades were harder steel, probably a 1050 or 1060. Cut off a piece and test. |
| - guru - Wednesday, 05/10/06 13:34:26 EDT |
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hi everybody.i am building a power hammer and i need to straiten a leaf spring it is a 3 leaf spring ,i have left the bucket of the JCB on it all day but as soon as i take the bucket of it springs back.eny body got eny idears,thanks dave |
| washtub dave - Wednesday, 05/10/06 13:45:04 EDT |
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Dave, Just loading a spring will not change its shape (unless loaded to capacity for many years). You have to over travel the spring (bend it). This can be done cold using a press or a tire bender (rolls). You will probably need to dissasemble the stack and re-arc each spring seperately. |
| - guru - Wednesday, 05/10/06 13:50:13 EDT |
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I got alot of questions today. What all alloys are used in steel? What is brine and were could I acquire some? Are there any american anvil amking companies and if so what are there names? What is Jcb?? RR track In order to find the alloys that are in it you need to find out what RR company had the tracks and get ahold of the documents if there are any left that were kept for that section of track. Alot of RR's did that so they could re order a section of track if that one failed, broke, or camelled ( Bent straight up after it was laided down and spiked causing the train to de rail) this happened alot on the Cross country RR between east and west coast. |
| - Tyler - Wednesday, 05/10/06 14:20:54 EDT |
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HELLO GURU, I AM TRYING TO GET A MATERIAL IDENTIFICATION SPARK CHART OFF THE INTERNET OR HAVE ONE SENT TO THE COMPANY I WORK FOR. I'VE CALLED CRUCIBLE METALS IN FORT WORTH TX AND THEY SAID NO SUCH CHART HAS EVER BEEN PUBLISHED, COULD I BE WRONG ABOUT THIS CHART. PLEASE HELP. |
| ERNIE FLORES - Wednesday, 05/10/06 14:45:31 EDT |
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Metal Alloying: Tyler, Although the rail roads may have had specs the mills in fact defined the alloy first and the rail roads standards people defined the cross section (after or in conjunction with the mills according to what they made). Somewhere in there an engineer defined all the cross sections eventually adopted including extra heavy rail down to little mono-rail crane stuff. Early standards however were catch as catch can. There are about 30 metals that can be alloyed and almost all are used in one type of steel or another. When you get into high strength tools steels for cutter applications there is often more non-ferrous stuff than the iron. In fact the super high performance cutter alloys have little or no iron in them at all. Common ingrediants are iron, carbon, silicon, manganese, chrome, nickle, tungsten, vanadium, cobalt, copper, aluminium . . . Brine is salt water. The oceans are full of it. You can make your own, a saturated solution is common. Yes, there are a number of American anvil makers today. Most farriers anvils are domestic made and too numerous to mention but MFC (an advertiser here) is one, Mankle and Texas Farrier Supply (TFS) as well. Then there is Nimba and Rat Hole who both make big forging anvils. |
| - guru - Wednesday, 05/10/06 14:55:22 EDT |
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Spark Charts: Ernie, A number have been published, maybe not by crucible metals. See our review of Metals for Engineering Craftsmen Click on the excerpt for the spark chart. Note that even though the spark patterns are fairly standard that different grinding wheels with different grits and speeds produce different results. You also need low light. It is almost always best to have a selection of comparison samples of known material to test and compare to. |
| - guru - Wednesday, 05/10/06 15:01:38 EDT |
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thanks for the information on the springs guru regards dave |
| washtub dave - Wednesday, 05/10/06 15:06:06 EDT |
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More Spark Charts: Modern Welding also has a spark test chart attributed to Norton Co. (the grinding wheel and abrasive company). NEW Edge of the Anvil by Jack Andrews has a spark chart by the author. However, I thought the one in the original Edge of the Anvil was better (see our review). Metalworking Technology and Practice has a very good chart as well as color descriptions even though it is not listed in the index. . Many welding supply companies also provide these charts and I have seen some in color. |
| - guru - Wednesday, 05/10/06 15:17:51 EDT |
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Tyler, JCB is a brand of heavy equipment. The term's used in the UK to refer to a specific piece of equipment. I think a backhoe, but I haven't quite worked it out for sure. |
| Mike B - Wednesday, 05/10/06 18:05:08 EDT |
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Another hopeless mystery steel id... To set the tone, the potter down the road bought 3000 pounds of stainless steel billets at an auction, of sizes on the order of 2"x4"x12". Why, neither he nor I can explain, but he gave me 15 free firebricks, so I'm ok with that. He wants to know what to do with it. I told him he would get alot more out of it if we could reasonably ID the steel, and since he has a pallet of it, it could be reasonable to have it tested for type. My question is, is it possible to send off a sample of steel to a lab, then have them tell you what type the steel is(as in ASTM number)? A curious attribute of one of the pieces is that it was painted blue on one side, with a black arrow that indicated the rolling direction. I thought this might be an indication of some importance, but am ignorant as to what. |
| - Tom T - Wednesday, 05/10/06 18:26:42 EDT |
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I have a broken 9 gauge no sag spring in my auto seat. I have tried to purchase some spring material to replace the bad spring. My local supplier says he noe only carries no sag spring material by the foot, but he states if I just bend the material into the shape of the broken spring. The spring will not hold its shape. THe spring material need to be heated and bent in order to have memory (spring back into the original after you take weight of seat) My question what tempature does the spring have to be while bending? Will the spring retain its temper and hold to the shape bent into? Or does the spring material need to be rehardened? I vaguely remember back 30 years ago in a college metal class heating steel with carbon to temper it. Is this the same general principle for the no sag spring material. Thanks conky |
| conky - Wednesday, 05/10/06 19:37:27 EDT |
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Does anyone have a sourse for #14 steel slot head countersunk wood screws 1",1 1/2" & 2"? Am working on 1880's carriage and can't see using zinc philips heads. If I have to, tips on hand cutting them? |
| goodhors - Wednesday, 05/10/06 19:48:50 EDT |
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Fun with a leaf blower, Way back when... I would take a usual 55 gal drum set up for burning debris, get moderate or small fire going in it then pile it full the wet leaves, grass clippings, whatever... Through the bottom 2" pipe hole I had plumbed that to an electric leafblower, then switch it on ! The smoke was unbelieviable ! It would easily and quickly burn enormous piles wet of yard debris. I one-upped the thing by welding another drum on it end to end. That way it could be charged more fully because while it was burning, it was not pleasant to stand next to it and shovel in more wet leaves plus the smoke exited about 8' off the ground and was less anoying. Suprisingly, There would be a great deal of clinker formed as well, I suspect the maple leaves contain silica or other mineral absorbed from the ground. Blacksmithing content,, The base of the drum would get red hot, Were one to put a hole in the side of the drum, barstock could be inserted for forging... |
| - Mike - Wednesday, 05/10/06 21:09:57 EDT |
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I'm a professional smith with a 50lb Little Giant. Thinking of upgrading to an air hammer, since I'm moving my shop and will have to pay shipping one way or another. Any suggestions for affordable quality air hammers? Thanks. |
| Chris Shea - Wednesday, 05/10/06 21:28:03 EDT |
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Chris Shea: To and from where are you moving? I think you should investigate the "Iron Kiss" hammers, made by John Larson. You can Google them but I think it is ironkiss.com |
| John Odom - Wednesday, 05/10/06 21:31:48 EDT |
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I am looking for information (instructions)on making nail headers. |
| tweaver - Wednesday, 05/10/06 21:33:51 EDT |
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JCB: The ones My boss has are loader / backhoe 4WD 4 wheel steering machines. These are "Compact" machines, about half as long as a Case 580, but only a little less capacity. they are about 7000#. Interesting feature is the backhoe can be moved from the center to either side of the machine. |
| Dave Boyer - Wednesday, 05/10/06 22:24:56 EDT |
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It is www.ironkisshammers.com and everyone I have talked to gives rave reviews to the quality; they are universally described in the first sentence as "wow, what a hard hitter, with great control". |
| Ellen - Wednesday, 05/10/06 22:32:27 EDT |
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Tredegar Iron Works, Richmond, VA: I forwarded that site to our Richmond National Battlefield Park ( www.nps.gov/rich ), which presently has its Visitor Center in the old Tredegar Ironworks building. From a short conversation, I think they were unaware of that website. Nice site, nicely done. It will add to my trip when I have to go there for business in the next month or two. 3,000# of Stainless Steel Billets: Hmmm, sounds like a good non-reactive, non-toxic mass of sailboat ballast to me. ;-) What are their dimension/weight? Awaiting the rain on the banks of the lower Potomac. Visit your National Parks: www.nps.gov Go viking: www.longshipco.org |
| Bruce Blackistone (Atli) - Wednesday, 05/10/06 22:35:31 EDT |
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Hello, My search for an anvil is still ongoing, but I have found a 137lb Peter Wright locally. The seller has offered it to me for $350, which seems pretty steep to me as I have read on anvilfire as well as other places that the going rate for small used anvils should be $1-$2 per pound. Now, assuming that I closely examine the anvil and find it to be in good shape should I seriously consider this opportunity or in your opinions am I better off waiting for another one? Thanks. |
| Steven Galonska - Wednesday, 05/10/06 23:13:10 EDT |
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Steven G. It depends on how anxious You are, and the condition of the anvil. If perfect it might be worth that much. Blacksmiths want and get more for anviles than people who are tired of tripping over them. |
| Dave Boyer - Thursday, 05/11/06 00:25:43 EDT |
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Steven Galonska: Really supply and demand. $2-2.50 for a PW in excellent condition wouldn't be out of line, so asking price is at the top. As Dave noted, if perfect than going above $2.50 may be a fair price. You can somewhat use eBay as a price guide. Just do a search on anvil, within the collectibles category, by highest price on completed items only. More than price, I would consider 137 pounds to be a tad on the light side for general blacksmithing. I would recommend 150-170 pounds with a 1" hardy hole. |
| Ken Scharabok - Thursday, 05/11/06 01:03:16 EDT |
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Steven: At $2 per pound a 137 lb anvil is $274, what's another $76 ? If it's in really good condition, get it. You can always resell later if the opportunity presents itself to get a bigger one. Otherwise, you have a good anvil. The old bird in the hand theory. |
| - rthibeau - Thursday, 05/11/06 02:07:57 EDT |
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oh, and you can always counter offer less and negotiate from there. |
| - rthibeau - Thursday, 05/11/06 02:08:57 EDT |
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Tom T: yes, you can send a sample off to a lab and they will tell you the chemical composition and the type of metal it is. I recently did that very thing for some steel I got. The lab I used charges $50 - $75 a sample depending on what you think it is. Tool steels are higher. nsl@nslanalytical.com 7650 Hub Parkway, Cleveland, Ohio 44125 Phone: (216)447-1550 or (800)497-6752 Fax: (216)447-0716 E-mail: nsl@nslanalytical.com http://www.nslanalytical.com |
| - rthibeau - Thursday, 05/11/06 02:17:26 EDT |
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JCB is a British company with a product range similar to CAT. JCB has very recently won their biggest order ever from...... the good ol USA, I was frankly astounded by that as I think when theres not to much between two tenders the governemnt should buy 'local' - especially given your trade defecit ! Good news for manufacturing this side of the pond though- the JCB work filters down to alot of small engineering companies in one form or another. (meanwhile our govenment has been threatening to order the UK's new aircraft carriers from the French.... ? makes no sense to me.) |
| - John N - Thursday, 05/11/06 04:52:36 EDT |
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Thanks for the advice everyone. I think that the size of the anvil should be fine for me since my aim is to be a hobby smith and at the moment I don't anticipate doing a lot of heavy forging. That said, I will ask the seller if he will accept $275-$300 but will remain open to the $350 if it's in really good shape. |
| Steven Galonska - Thursday, 05/11/06 08:31:16 EDT |
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Perfect Peter Wrights go for as high as $4/lb easily. But most old anvils are far from factory delivered perfect. |
| - guru - Thursday, 05/11/06 08:37:43 EDT |
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Chris Shea: So, are you selling your Little Giant and do you have a buyer? Let us know, and where you are, and you may get a sale from here. |
| Bob H - Thursday, 05/11/06 10:36:42 EDT |
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Tweaver- Welcome to anvilfire, nail headers look at in the navigate window upper left coner on this page , then go to iforge how to, pick demo #48. hope that helps. |
| daveb - Thursday, 05/11/06 10:55:23 EDT |
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upper right corner, from in here is on the left BOG. |
| daveb - Thursday, 05/11/06 11:15:21 EDT |
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Stainless steel doohickeys They all are on the small side, from 2-4" in width, to 6-12 inches in length, I believe. Easily handled by hand. |
| - Tom T - Thursday, 05/11/06 13:25:47 EDT |
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Sounds like blanks cut for something and not made or did not pass muster. Stainless scrap is high. If he got it at a good price it may be profitable to just scrap it. |
| - guru - Thursday, 05/11/06 13:29:16 EDT |
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hey, i have a question i am hoping someone can answer. i have a small blacksmith shop in a residential neighborhood in south mpls, mn. the ringing of my anvil is very loud and i am wondering if there is any way to quiet the ring. i have chain wrapped around the base and have heard that putting high power magnets on the anvil will help but it doesnt seem to work. does anyone have any suggestions besides moving my shop to an industrial or rural area. thanks |
| - j. vanmadrone - Thursday, 05/11/06 18:01:37 EDT |
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J. vanmadrone, Having your anvil tightly secured to a good stout stump will quiet it immensely. It needs to be held down with tight chains, cable or straps so that the stump dampens the ring. A piece or two of asphalt roofing felt between the anvil and the stump will even out any little irregularities and make the bond better. SOme people have used RTV silicone gasket compound to good advantage for that same purpose. Getting it held tightly is the main thing, though. |
| vicopper - Thursday, 05/11/06 18:39:22 EDT |
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I often put a bullpin in the pritchel to quiet things down---of course my style of use keeps me away from that area most of the time so no "impact" issues... Thomas |
| Thomas P - Thursday, 05/11/06 18:43:59 EDT |
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J. vanmadrone, You probably know this already, but it isn't the magnetism that quiets the anvil, but the weight of the magnets. You need fairly large ones -- maybe 8 OZ or so, and they need to be in the right place. So if they don't work at first, try moving them around -- under the horn, for example. |
| Mike B - Thursday, 05/11/06 18:52:43 EDT |
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Chris Shea: www.ironkisshammers.com (410) 925-2255 |
| John larson - Thursday, 05/11/06 18:59:08 EDT |
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j. vanmadrone If the only thing I was worried about was the noise from the anvil (and I couldn't tone it down enough), I would sell what I had and go buy a quieter anvil. Look for a Fisher.... |
| - djhammerd - Thursday, 05/11/06 19:18:39 EDT |
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Magnets on Anvils: It is not just a "magnet" but certain classes of speaker magnet which have an elastomer cushion between the magnet and the shell. It is the dampening effect that helps quite the anvil. However, I've seen large ones on anvils that did little good. . As mentioned, straping the anvil down tight to a dampening medium like wood or concrete will reduce the ring. A gasket or caulking to make a tight fit also helps. In Europe a favorite is the ash and sand filled stand where the anvil base is burried about 3-4" in the fill. See our "anvil stands" iForge demo. You can also sound proof your shop by using wall hangings (carpet and such). Sound also reflects off smooth surfaces so the way doors, walls and fences are positioned makes a difference. A hedge in front of a fence can act as a damper. The way you strike the anvil can make a big difference as well. If you want to make the loudest possible noise strike the horn or heel on the side. The heel usually makes the loudest noise. Keeping hot iron between hammer and anvil makes a big difference. Anvil noise is much less than a table or skill saw or a typical motorcycle. It is microscopic compared to a drum set or electric guitar cranked up a "little". |
| - guru - Thursday, 05/11/06 20:10:12 EDT |
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What Was I Thinking??? That JCB I described ia about 13000#. |
| - Dave Boyer - Thursday, 05/11/06 20:49:06 EDT |
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j. vanmadrone: Making your neighbors some hand-forged gifts from time to time, particularly the women, can greatly increase neighborhood tolerance. Also, try to avoid forging outside of what would typically be normal working hours. Sounds which are somewhat muted during the day can be heard a long way at night. IMHO, a non-ringing anvil and a propane forge can go a long way towards being a good neighbor. |
| Ken Scharabok - Thursday, 05/11/06 21:19:29 EDT |
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As I posted earlier, do what you can to quiet your anvil. I have a small (120#) Peter Wright that is the noisiest anvil I've ever experienced. Since it is my "traveling" anvil, it isn't fastened to the fabricated wooden stand and is earsplitting. My 200# anvil, also a wrought-bodied anvil, is much quieter when not fastened down, and very reasonable when securely fastened to a stump. But my 250# Fisher is dead quiet and very effective, even though is is only sitting on a wooden stand. For my money, you can't beat a Fisher; a workhorse that doesn't ring at all. Lots of mass centered under the main working area helps its effectiveness, too. |
| vicopper - Thursday, 05/11/06 22:00:06 EDT |
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I've made a vase from sheet copper and heated it to get some nice colors in the metal. Should I put some sort of protective coating now on the metal to prevent it from further oxidizing, protect it from fingerprints, etc? If so, what sort of coatings do people use. Obviously this is a first experiment for me... Thanks! Tom |
| Tom - Friday, 05/12/06 00:20:38 EDT |
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Tom, Copper is highly reactive, as metals go, so those oxide colors are not vrey stable. Some clear coats wil preserve them for a while, and others will change them drastically the minute you apply it to the copper. Clear acrylic lacquer has worked for me in the past, but it is NOT permanent, by any means. Even the best clear coatings are semi-permeable and let air get to the surface of the copper after a while. Waxing the object regularly, after clear-coating it, is about the best ou can do to preserve the oxide colors. Personally, I recommend not clear-coating, but rather give it a coat of wax and tell the customer to keep up the maintenance, but advise them that the piece will gradually age to a nice lustrous reddish brown patina with age. Until someone figures out how to suspend the laws of physics, copper is going to continue to oxidize. |
| vicopper - Friday, 05/12/06 08:43:27 EDT |
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Would an automotive noise damping coating work for a loud anvil? Not that I have a problem with mine, but I noticed the earlier post. There are spray coatings that are applied to the undercarriage that deaden road noise, but these products may be flammable, so is there a solution? |
| - Nippulini - Friday, 05/12/06 09:50:59 EDT |
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Nip, These coatings do help insulate road noise comming through thin sheet metal but are not suitable to dampen a heavy virbrator like an anvil |
| - guru - Friday, 05/12/06 10:44:47 EDT |
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I was shown a neat trick for damping an anvil ring at the DRM hammer in. One of the demonstrators had a duct tape cap on the end of the horn of his Euro anvil. The cap was made so that it fit tight and had two layers of tape sticky to sticky so that it slipped on and off easily. I asked him what it was for, he took it all and tapped his anvil then put back on and tapped it again. The tape cap did any amazing job damping out the ringing. |
| - Stephen G - Friday, 05/12/06 13:10:49 EDT |
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Having a slight problem with keeping my forge running what could cause it? |
| - Tyler - Friday, 05/12/06 15:11:04 EDT |
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Charcoal, Coal, Gas, Oil, Wood, Peat, Dung . . . ? |
| - guru - Friday, 05/12/06 15:17:39 EDT |
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hi,i am berning coke in my forge i start of with a handfull of charcoal and then add the coke,i try to get up to a welding heat but every time i think things are just right i pull the steel out from the fire and its burnt,do you think i am giving it to much air, |
| washtub dave - Friday, 05/12/06 16:00:24 EDT |
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Dave, Coke takes quite a bit of air. To make a less oxidizing fire it needs to be 4 to 6" deep under the steel. If the steel is too close to the air it is going to burn in any case. What size is your coke? Foundry coke is much too large and must be broken down into pieces that are from 1/2" to 3/4". A good welding fire uses little air to get to a white heat. It is easy to get too hot when burning coke so the fire must be carefully adjusted. |
| - guru - Friday, 05/12/06 16:23:27 EDT |
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i am berning 3/4 to 1.1/2 coke,the suplyer sayes thats what all the blacksmiths thay suply get from them,it berns well but you have to keep giving it some air or it dosent take long to lose the fire,i use a hair drier hooked up to a dimer switch,after reeding your last reply i think my problem is i dont keep the fire deep,how deep shuld my fire pot be,at the moment its about 3 inshes, |
| washtub dave - Friday, 05/12/06 16:54:45 EDT |
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Dave the size of your firepot is dependent on the size of what you are working---if you are working 6" steel you will need a very big firepot compared to working 1/4" steel. Thomas |
| Thomas P - Friday, 05/12/06 17:00:09 EDT |
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thank you thomas,the bigest size i have worked up untill now is 2by2 inshes. |
| washtub dave - Friday, 05/12/06 17:10:35 EDT |
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Washtub is that a piece of sheet metal or 2" sq stock? Need a substantial firepot for 2" square stock! Thomas |
| Thomas P - Friday, 05/12/06 18:02:39 EDT |
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2" sq thomas |
| washtub dave - Friday, 05/12/06 18:05:48 EDT |
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my fire pot is 6in X 6 in and 3in deep do you think i should make it 6 x 6 and 6 inshes deep. |
| washtub dave - Friday, 05/12/06 18:39:49 EDT |
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well its 1AM heare in the UK so its time for me to get my sleep,catch you all tomorow i hoppe thanks for all the advice an information, regards (DAVE) |
| washtub dave - Friday, 05/12/06 19:41:36 EDT |
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jock, pls feel free to delete this post, ...(not that i want to cause you work) Tyler.. are you a troll, really? your posts are, at best contradicotry, offering adivce on cutter blades, and then asking whats in steel? you have 2 anvils? but still want to know how to make one from RR scrap? wikpedia.. troll if your not a troll I do apologise, but you can google 99% of your questions. as an armour smith this will probably bounce straight off you. |
| - john m - Friday, 05/12/06 19:44:32 EDT |
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dave, in the uk also ... where abouts you based? |
| - john n - Friday, 05/12/06 19:50:57 EDT |
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jhon,i am in west wales UK |
| washtub dave - Saturday, 05/13/06 05:22:46 EDT |
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I'm going to make a candle snuffer with a hinged basket twist handle. The handle is no problem, but what's the best method to form the snuffer? I've checked the iForge demos and there's nothing, looked for a candle holder design that I could use upside down. I could curl metal into a cone shape, or I guess I could use a swage and make a cup shape. ANy suggestions? |
| - Nippulini - Saturday, 05/13/06 08:47:40 EDT |
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The last candle snuffer I made was a simple cone like the top of a witch's hat. |
| - guru - Saturday, 05/13/06 09:05:18 EDT |
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Hello, I am interested in beginning blacksmithing and need some advice on buying equipment. There is an anvil on Ebay for a reasonable price that I am planning on buying but I don't know if it is worth getting. I am also planning on making a brakedrum forge, for cost efficiencys sake. I am 14 and have limited funds so I don't think I will be able to afford any better than the one on Ebay. Ebay ITEM No. 8282466691 any advice would be appreciated. |
| - Ethan - Saturday, 05/13/06 10:44:29 EDT |
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Nippulini, This probably isn't the best way, but I've made candle snuffers by starting with a piece of 1/2" square, and upsetting one end slightly. I draw the rest of the piece out to form the handle, then flatten the upset end into a triangular shape (pointing toward the handle). I roll the triangle into a cone and forge weld the seam over a bick. Miles, I was okay up to the ampersand. Does the last bit mean I'm going to be driving a Dodge? |
| Mike B - Saturday, 05/13/06 10:47:02 EDT |
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Ethan, the first thing you need to do is find your local blacksmith group. Go to the Navigate Anvilfire box, and scroll down to the Abana link, and find your local group and call them. Find out where and when they meet. You will likely find tools as well as instruction. And also, the brake drum forge is not limited. If made properly, it works just fine. I've got one that I use for demo's. I made mine with a break down stand just for that reason. But I lined the inside with furnace cement, so the coke funnels down to the center, instead of hanging up on the sides. Works much better that way. And forget a 55lb anvil, unless someone gives it to you. Too small. 70 lbs is probably the minimum. But a lot depends on what you end up making. 125lbs is still good for a demo anvil, 150lbs or better makes a great shop anvil. |
| Bob H. - Saturday, 05/13/06 12:00:30 EDT |
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i have been looking at gas forge plans,and on all the plans they use black iron pipe in the burner asembly ,i live in the UK and i havent heard of black iron pipe over heare,can you tell me what type of pipe this is.or what it wuold be called over heare. thanks |
| washtub dave - Saturday, 05/13/06 13:21:24 EDT |
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Hi there, i was wondering what the difference between Blackmsmith, stoker, and lump coal are, WWW.CoalAndFirewood.com its a local company , and their "Blacksmith Coal" is 35cents a pound, and their lump and stoker is about 17 cents a pound, why the huge difference, also, their blacksmith coal is marble to pea sized with lots of dust, what one would be the best to buy, taking into account, ease of use, and all that thanks |
| Cameron - Saturday, 05/13/06 13:44:03 EDT |
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sorry, the lump and stoker coal are 12 cents a pound |
| Cameron - Saturday, 05/13/06 13:47:38 EDT |
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Hej 'Nipp, Mikes method is how I make them too, Excepting I start out with 1/4" sq. or roundstock to make a slender handle, I like this way as its alot less work than drawing out from thicker stock like Mikes method. But to upset enough on the 1/4" stock is not easy so will faggot over the end about 1.5" then faggot that about .5 to .75 again (2nd faggot the easy way). Despite the extra shuts welding makes, This builds up alot of material to make the triangle to roll into the cone. I like to make it all lightweight as possible so the cone is flattened very thin before rolling, But this makes bugger to weld the joint without it burning, So I just dont weld it. It just gets lappjointed and hammered smooth on a special sharp pointed cone mandrels I make. (PS, find a buddy with a big lathe and treat them well ) |
| - Sven - Saturday, 05/13/06 14:47:49 EDT |
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Washtub Dave: Basically another name for gas-type pipe versus gavanized water pipe. Fittings can be either ductile (grey) or cast iron. Most of the forge plans I have seen call for 9" or so lengths of 3/4" pipe and 1 1/2" to 3/4" bell couplers/reducers. If you need 9", take an standard 18" nipple and cut it in half. One end will be threaded to go into the bell coupler. Your local plumbing supplier should have the parts. |
| Ken Scharabok - Saturday, 05/13/06 15:05:10 EDT |
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Ethan: Cast iron is not a suitable material for an anvil, and 55 lbs, even if it were a good material, is too small for blacksmithing. This item is really a rip-off. |
| - John Odom - Saturday, 05/13/06 15:26:22 EDT |
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thank you ken, all the best Dave |
| washtub dave - Saturday, 05/13/06 15:28:11 EDT |
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Cast Iron Anvils Ethan, These are popularly called "ASO's" for "Anvil Shaped Object". At least this guy is honest and calls it what it is. Cast iron is 1/10 as strong as steel, less under impact. It is very brittle and big chunks will fly off the corners if used like a real anvil. A real anvil is made of hardened and tempered medium to high carbon steel. Note however that most ebay dealers selling ASO's describe them as "hardened steel, professional quality". These are out right bold faced lies. This is NOT a way to do business. Do as suggested and go to some local blacksmith meets. You can often find used tools there and an ocassional bargain. The worst worn out, chipped edged, sway backed, broken horned REAL anvil is better than any ASO. Anvils in this condition are often available for $50 or less and do nothing but appreciate. |
| - guru - Saturday, 05/13/06 16:40:52 EDT |
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A past customer asked me if I could make her up a snarling iron. Doesn't seem to be much information about them on the Internet. From a photo I found I made one from an auto tire lug wrench, but it doesn't seem to have much vibration at the working end to do much work. One reference I found implies square stock is more effective than round stock for them. True? Do they have to be out of medium to high carbon steel, or will quenched mild steel work? |
| Ken Scharabok - Saturday, 05/13/06 17:49:00 EDT |
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Well, Ethan, as everyone says a cast iron anvil wouldn't be the best. I started off with a very small avil myself before upgrading. If you do get a small anvil, I wouldn't condemn using it until you can afford a bigger one. I have never had to buy any REAL thing myself to tell you the truth, but I don't think everyone has friends that work in areas that can just right out FIND things for you. |
| - Rob - Saturday, 05/13/06 20:31:18 EDT |
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Snarling Irons: Ken, These are possible in infinite variety. They do not need to be quenched, mild steel normalized is fine. Remember that all steel has the same springyness and in a long slender spring with low travel there is no need for a hard alloy. The end may want to be a piece of something hard so that it can be finely finished and hold the finish. A slightly flattened ball bearing securely welded on would do nicely. As you know they need to be bouncy enough to hammer from the inside by tapping on the arm. Usualy a wood mallet is used. A tire iron is too stiff. IF one were drawn out to about 1-1/2 to 2 times its length it would do. . but why do all that work. . . Pick a bar size and play with the length. If the length works straight then it only needs to be about 10% longer when bent. The trick to snarling irons is that they are shaped for specific purposes. Many are used in the low brass musical instrument repair business and some are shaped to reach as far into the instrument as is possible. Others simply reach farther than you can by hand. Square or round makes no difference but square stock is used because it can be clamped to a bench, in a vise, held in a multi socket bench plate. Just GUESSING, I would say a piece of 3/8" square would make a nice 2 foot iron. A piece of 7/16 square or 1/2" round would be good to 30 to 36" and so on. A few minutes in the shop would tell. SO: The variables in a snarling iron are, lenght, end shape, arm shape. The cross section is defined by the length. THEN, there may be a preference by the user as to if the iron is stiff or loose. Stiff irons work better fro supporting the work from the inside. Loose irons work better for tapping out. But a stiff iron will do finer work. You may find that your customer needs a whole set of irons. . . . |
| - guru - Saturday, 05/13/06 21:08:43 EDT |
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I ran across a 100# anvil last week at a yard sale. It is marked VAN I&S FNDY CO, VANCOUVER WN on one side and the number 100 on one end. It appears to be cast rather than forged. It is in perfect shape and the price was right. It looks to be 50? yrs old. I can't locate any info on the company. Can you supply any info on who made it, how it was made and is it any good. Thank you for any help. |
| mike garrahan - Saturday, 05/13/06 21:48:13 EDT |
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Hello, I ended up buying that Peter Wright I mentioned earlier. The seller was a really nice guy and offered to sell it to me for only $250 when I said that I wasn't an antiques dealer and that I wanted it because I was trying to get started in blacksmithing. It's actually in very good shape with the only real blemishes being a few small chips out of the edges and a couple of chisel marks on the horn. It's a little on the small size at 137lbs, but I think it will serve me well while I'm learning and I can always get a larger anvil to compliment it if I start doing a lot of heavy forging. I do have another question though. Now that I have acquired an anvil, my next target is a post vise. I learned that there will be a blacksmith meet near me next week so I don't think I'll have any trouble finding one. However, I'm not sure what size I should buy. All of the books I have read state that the size of the post vise is dependent on what kind of work you want to do, but sadly none of them come out an say which sizes are appropriate for different types of work. Starting out, I think most of my forging is going to be done on 1/4" - 1/2" stock. Does anyone have a recommendation for what size post vise I should look for? Is this a case of "bigger is better"? Thanks. |
| Steven Galonska - Saturday, 05/13/06 21:57:30 EDT |
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Anvil Size; Please see our FAQ on Selecting and Anvil. The size anvil you need to work efficiently is the only right size. Anvil size is proportional to the size work you are going to do. However, the work will vary greatly but the convienient hammer size for a wide range of work does not. So you hammer size and the energy of its enertia that must be withstood by your anvil determins the anvil size. For efficient working this is a 50:1 ratio, which results in a 97% hammer energy efficiency. SO, is the work you do requires only a 1 pound hammer then a 50 pound anvil is appropriate. If you normally use a big 4 pound hammer then you SHOULD have a 200 pound anvil. For most blacksmiths there is a maximum size hammer that they are happy with. This generally ranges from 2 to 4 pounds (900 to 1800 grams) with most smiths working using about a 2.8 to 3.5 pound (1300 to 1500 gram) hammer. That means that a 125 to 175 pound anvil is all that is needed. However, if you use a sledge or have helpers to strike then larger anvils are needed. The rule of thumb that an average shop anvil should be 200 pounds (90kg) supports this. Smiths that regularly work on very large anvils (400 to 500 pounds) will also tell you that not only can they feel the difference while working they can feel the difference in how tired they are at the end of the day. Anvils are made for jewlers that only weigh a few ounces. The work done on them weighs less than a gram and even a small fraction of a gram. The hammer used is also just a few grams. Anvils for power hammers do not need to be nearly as efficient as those for hand work and 10:1 to 20:1 ratios are common. This means they start at around a thousand pounds and UP rapidly. The reason power hammer anvils do not need to be as efficient as manual use anvils is the cost of the energy of the machine is MUCH less than that of the human worker and does not tire from lack of efficiency. The human worker tires rapidly and only has a finite amount of energy to expend in any given day. YES, you CAN do almost any general work on an anvil that is a fourth the size it should be. But you squander your energy, waste your time, work harder and get much more frustrated with the work you DO produce. Starting with a small anvil is fine when you are learning and working with a small hammer. But when you out grow that little 2 pound training hammer, you will also have out grown the small anvil you used with it. It usualy pays to shop around, search for a good anvil and start with nothing less than 100 pounds for general smithing. This will only be a little light if and when you move up to a larger hammer. |
| - guru - Saturday, 05/13/06 21:59:22 EDT |
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Post Vise Size: Steven, Even though most people describe vises by jaw widths all blacksmith leg vises were sold by the pound in about 10 pound increments. Among the manufacturers you might find a vise with 4" jaws that weighed as much as a vise with 5" jaws. The WEIGHT, like that of anvils is what makes the difference. As far as size of vise relative to work size there is not much difference among average leg vises. The little 30 pound vices are just as useful as a bigger 70 pound vise for most purposes (sawing, filing, chisling, light hammering). If you do heavy pounding jobs in a vise the bigger the better. More important than size if you are looking at used leg vices is the condition of the vice. Are all the parts there? Yes, a spring is easy to replace but it is a 50 to $100 dollar part for you to make. Bench brackets, more so. Pass on any that have bad screws unless they are selling for almost nothing ($10 to $20). GOOD leg vices have been selling for $100 to $200 for several years. Exceptional large vices sell for more. See our leg vise FAQ for sizes and other information. Probably the most important thing about a vise is how it is mounted. The two I show on the leg vise FAQ are mounted for portability. They are less than half as usefull than if they were anchored to a solid bench anchored both to floor and wall. The absolutely most convienient and steadiest leg vise I have ever used was a little 30 pound vice mounted on my 4,000 pound shop trailer. The bench/bracket was triangular so you had good access to the vise and it was steady and imovable.  When I mounted this vise I made a bracket that the vise fit into so that it did not rotate and where this shows a single diagonal to the leg there are two at angles matching the V bracket. I welded a tab to the back of the leg for the diagonals to bolt to. It was small but it was the best vice I have ever used. My next favorite vise is a 130 pound Prentis chipping vise mounted on a bench with a heavy bracket underneight that attaches to the wall behind the vice. The bench is bolted to the wall and floor at four corners then the vise is anchored through a 3/4" bolt to an 8 x 10 wall bracket with through bolts. You could pull the building down with this setup. And that is the point. |
| - guru - Saturday, 05/13/06 22:30:16 EDT |
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Steven G - Postvise: 4 - 4 1/2" and 40 - 50# is a nice size. |
| Dave Boyer - Saturday, 05/13/06 22:39:16 EDT |
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As always, thank you very much for the advice. I definately anticipate that I will need to buy a larger anvil eventually. I plan to learn how to forge on this smaller one while keeping my eyes open for a 200+lb anvil. Thanks as well for the advice on post vises. I have been told that there will be a huge amount of equipment for sale at this meet so hopefully I should be able to come away with a vise in good condition. |
| Steven Galonska - Sunday, 05/14/06 01:02:20 EDT |
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The best mount for a post vise is just what the name implies; a post. Set a 6x6 or an 8x8 post about three feet deep in concrete, with enough apron around it to accept the leg without cracking. I use a steel plate that is lag bolted on two sides of the post and rests on the concrete with a hole for the leg pin. At the top of the post I have tray about 10 x 14 inches welded to a heft cap for the post. The tray is heavy enough plate to have tapped holes for the vise bracket. I can walk all the way around the vise and it set where I can clamp one end of a 20' stick os stock in it, if need be. Now, if it would raise up and down it would be just perfect, but unless your shop is in an old service station with a floor hoist, I'm darned if I know how to make the up and down thing work well. (grin) I also have a decent-sized chipping vise mounted to a bench. The bolts for the mount go through the benchtop and on the bottom, instead of washers, I use 5/8" rod flattened and drilled at the ends. One end is under the nut, the other end is bolted to the wall, down near the floor. The bench top is bolted to the wall with angle iron, so that vise will NOT move, no matter how hard I yank on something in it...even with a cheater pipe. ONe other VERY handy vise, especially for demos, is one that is adapted to either drop in the hardie hole on your anvil, or can be bolted to it. I modified a fairly small 4" bench vise to go in my hardie hole. I believe it was Ken Scharabok, of Poor Boy Blacksmith Tools, who took an anvil and drilled/tapped the side to accept the moveable jaw of a small vise, with the other jaw being the side of the anvil. That actually seemed like a darn good idea for an anvil used for demos, as one problem with vises for demos is finding a *convenient* way to mount one that is stable. One reason for using a post vise is that it will withstand pounding due to the leg connecting the fixed jaw to the ground. A vise wherein th efixed jaw is the side of your anvil would also allow a fair bit of pounding, no? A bit low for filing, but acceptable for a brief demo, I'm sure. |
| vicopper - Sunday, 05/14/06 01:24:09 EDT |
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Mike, I live in Vancouver,(at least part time,,,) I might look into this one. I believe the foundry was known as "Fick Foundry" in the 70's making manhole covers, rainwater drains etc. Far as I know its still there, But maybe as a different name. |
| - Sven - Sunday, 05/14/06 02:09:31 EDT |
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I can find all kinds of imformation on forges, anvils, vises & technics, but I find little on how to put a good finish on the things I forge. Sure I can paint them so they don't rust, but are there other technics to get a good finish that won't rust? I would be greatful for any information. |
| - Bill Helean - Sunday, 05/14/06 05:33:46 EDT |
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I can find all kinds of imformation on forges, anvils, vises & technics, but I find little on how to put a good finish on the things I forge. Sure I can paint them so they don't rust, but are there other technics to get a good finish that won't rust? I would be greatful for any information. |
| - Bill Helean - Sunday, 05/14/06 05:34:33 EDT |
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I can find all kinds of imformation on forges, anvils,vises,& forging technics,but I can't find much on how to put a finish on the products I forge. Sure I can paint them, but the paint burns off with the tools I make for the fire place & they seem to rust fairly quick. Any information would be of great help. |
| bill - Sunday, 05/14/06 05:38:55 EDT |
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Mike Garrahan: I have spoken to Richard Postman in the past about anvil manufacturing in Canada. He said as far as he knew at the time all of them were one-piece cast. Casting may range from cast iron to cast steel or just whatever they happened to be pouring that day. They may have had various molds ready and just cast them when they had material left over from another pour. May have been for employees, local sale or through a distributor. Not an absolute test but tap the end of the horn with a hammer. Generally the higher quality of the steel the more distinctive the ring will be. |
| Ken Scharabok - Sunday, 05/14/06 06:56:06 EDT |
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Steven Galonska: While postvises were originally sold by the pound I have never seen anyone walking around a tailgate sales area at a conference weighing them. Rule of thumb has been $X per inch of jaw. At one time the standard was $10 per inch, but that has crept up to usually a minimum of $20 per inch. Those prices were for a complete vise in good condition. There isn't much you can do with one with bad threads. A missing spring is easy to make. You can made a missing bench bracket, but it would be a lot easier just to continue looking. |
| Ken Scharabok - Sunday, 05/14/06 07:01:18 EDT |
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Finishes: Bill, It depends on the application of your work, where it goes and the local environment but good paint is the best route to go. Wax and oil finishes require maintenance that the owner will not give and when it rusts its your fault and your reputation. Paint does not have to be thick and goopy. Multiple coats of different products (cold galvanizing, primer, top coats) if sprayed on will show ALL the textural detail. Finishing your work is part of the ART and if you want your work to look fresh forged then work on creating a finish that has that look. I repeatedly harp on the fact that if Hollywood can make wood and plaster look like anything form brick to chrome to wrought iron then smiths should be able to make wrought iron look like wrought iron. Black is boring and many beautiful things can be done with color on iron. This is one thing many fabricators are doing that is beating the pants off the "artist blacksmiths" and between the finishes and the higher quality components the all hand made work is loosing the quality battle. Good high quality attractive duarable finishes are a part of the job. Those that think they are great artist blacksmiths, or "purists", that throw a coat of oil or wax on their and ship it are only doing half a job. It may be great forge work but it IS NOT a great product. |
| &n |