| WELCOME to the anvilfire Guru's Den - V. 3.0 |
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THIS is a forum for questions and answers about blacksmithing and general metalworking. Ask the Guru any reasonable question and he or one of his helpers will answer your question, find someone that can, OR research the question for you. This is an archive of posts from June 8 - 15, 2006 on the Guru's Den |
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V-chisels: You might try folding it over on itself (legth wise), hammering a slight bevel on the edge that ends up being the bottom of the V and then unfolding it. Starting with the center thicker might help keep the center from getting thinner than edge oposite the fold. Tool steel will crack like crazy if you let it get too cold. "the complete modern blacksmith" By Alexander Weygers devotes many pages specificaly to chisel making. |
| Leaf - Thursday, 06/08/06 01:50:47 EDT |
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Jock; please see my posting on a new treatment for manganese toxicity on the hammer-in. Thomas |
| Thomas P - Thursday, 06/08/06 13:55:47 EDT |
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Camp Fenby; Friday through Sunday, June 23 to 25, 2006 Camp Fenby is our somewhat laid-back medieval arts and crafts camp held at Oakley Farm in St. Mary’s County, Maryland. Civilian clothes are perfectly acceptable (so you don’t have to dress funny unless you’re really into it ;-), and there’s usually a lot of stuff to learn, teach or do. This year, due to fitting out the new ship, we will be concentrating on projects related to the Sæ Hrafn, as well as some related projects from last autumn, and having a pleasant weekend. Camp Fenby has a Yahoo Groups webpage at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CampFenby/ We usually post the latest and best information there, as well as directions to Oakley. There is a nominal site fee to cover the cost of the porta-potty, with all surplus funds going to support the Longship Company. Camping on the farm is available, and there are a number of motels in the area. Metalworking Projects for the Longship Company: Brass Casting (...so we can have a proper clapper for the ships bell.) We’ll use the molds from last autumn. (They should be dry by now!) Anchor: I would like to take some of the 1" X 1" wrought iron fence stock and forge a nice "lunch hook" size anchor for the Sæ Hrafn, similar to the one we made for the Blackbird last year. As a bonus, we could also do the wooden stock. Boat Hook: Once again we can forge the head, and carve down a broken oar (the one we snapped the blade off of against the daymark) for the shaft. Other Metalwork: Horse tack with Drey (who can only make it Friday) and some steel saddle bows for Leonard. Help Atli finish the sleighs (...if he hasn't gotten them done by then- this project needs to go away, but it take more than one person, and help is hard to come by. Help; it's ruining my life! 8-0 ) Beginning blacksmithing (if we have any beginners). Hinges for early medieval chests. (Ragallach's are ready for fitting from last autumn.) Woodwork: Mast Step: We've selected a good piece of windfall cherry, we need to fall upon it with chainsaws and adzes and whatever to form it into a proper mast step for the Sæ Hrafn. (There's a design flaw on the current mast step). Rigging blocks- we need at least 1" stock for 4 pairs of maiden blocks for the ship. Chests and caskets. The lathe is available if someone wants to instruct. Fiber Arts: Spinning, weaving, nålbinding, tablet weaving, etc. Food: The customary Saturday night crab & shrimp fest! Ribald songs included. Other projects and classes as time, talent, and instructors allow. If you need further information, please contact me at asylumATearthlinkDOTnet, or, from Monday to Thursday night, at bruce_blackistoneATnpsDOTgov since I will be in Philadelphia at a Departmental conference that week. (And it will give me something to look at in the evenings. ;-) |
| Bruce Blackistone (Atli) - Thursday, 06/08/06 14:35:34 EDT |
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I have just purchased an Anvil. Marked on it is "Fischer" and "1936". It is about 200 lbs. and in ecellent shape. Do you know anything about this name/company. |
| Lucas Patsch - Thursday, 06/08/06 14:59:13 EDT |
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Lucas, may I commend to your attention the fac on Fisher-Norris anvils found under the FAQS link in the "navigate anvilfire" menu at the upper right of this page. It was made in 1936 so it's pretty young as anvils go (I picked up an 1828 William Foster in bad shape for $5 before) It has a tool steel face and a cast iron body so it's quiet in use and if in good condition makes an excellent smithing anvil! Thomas |
| Thomas P - Thursday, 06/08/06 15:24:07 EDT |
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Lucas - In addition to what Thomas said, Fisher was the first company to make anvils in quanity in the US and their anvils were available new into the 1970s. (At least I got a price list for 'em in the '70s) |
| John Lowther - Thursday, 06/08/06 15:52:58 EDT |
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Hey, TGN: If you're still looking for a way to heat up your miniforge, may I suggest the following: http://www.rayrogers.com/miniforge.htm It's the neatest little setup I've seen for a fully adjustable atmosphere in a beancan-sized forge. |
| Alan-L - Thursday, 06/08/06 16:13:07 EDT |
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I am the owner of my granddad's old forge, tools, etc. Patented 1888. I want to try my hand at pounding iron like he showed me 50 years ago. I remember almost nothing. I have some good quality coke that I believe is a good medium for the fire. What is the best way to get the fire started. My granddad used a coaloil soaked rag if I remember correctly. This was way before starter fluids, etc. Any advice greatly appreciated. |
| Brummbaer - Thursday, 06/08/06 17:49:19 EDT |
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Von Schwartzwald by any chance? Coke is probably the hardest fuel to light. Most of the folks I know that use industrial coke rather than coal use an O-A torch. Thomas |
| Thomas P - Thursday, 06/08/06 18:26:32 EDT |
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Fire Starting: Brummbaer, There are several methods. 1) Use a torch on some fresh coal, push in some coke (half burned coal), increase air, add coke and coal. This works with coke and coal. 2) Use wood kindling and a little kerosene or deisel fuel. Use a gentle blast of air then increase as the coal catches. The air is right when the fire is making the loudest roar. 3) On good goal just paper and a little kindling OR just the paper will start the coal. Put about 2 to 3 sheets of newsprint balled up right on the tuyeer. Light at the bottom when placing. Apply very gentle air as fresh coal is piled around the paper. Leave a small vent when pushing the coal over the paper. As the coal starts there will be yellow smoke. Add a little more air. Too much air will cool and blow out the fire. Note that this method only works with GOOD coal. It helps when the forge is clean. When the forge has old clinker and old coal ash it is difficult to get the coal started. Different grades of coal require more or less help getting started. After some practice you will know what your coal requires. |
| - guru - Thursday, 06/08/06 18:31:28 EDT |
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COKE: Note that coke requires a constant air blast (electric blower). It is nearly impossible to use a hand powered forge with coke. Once you get a piece hot and go to work it, the fire will go out and require restarting. |
| - guru - Thursday, 06/08/06 18:34:46 EDT |
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Brummbaer-- Man I knew back in Alexandria, Va. accidentally killed himself trying to light his BBQ with starter fluid. Unbeknownst to him, some of the briquets had ignited. When he squirted some more starter fluid onto them, WHOOF! The flame shot up the stream, blew up the can-- and the burning fluid flashed all over him. |
| Miles Undercut - Thursday, 06/08/06 19:52:05 EDT |
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Thanks for all the advice. The coke that I have is industrial grade from a local foundry. Sounds like I need to find a source of coal as well. I will forego the accelerants. Thanks for all the advice. By the way, reference the first response, the forge is US made. It is currently 4 AM and dark outside. I will look and see where it was made later in the AM. Brummbaer |
| Brummbaer - Friday, 06/09/06 05:26:50 EDT |
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Foundry coke is a real pain to use. First, it is too large and needs to be broken down to about 1/2" to 3/4" lumps. Then as mentioned it MUST have a continous supply of air. It is also much denser than "natural" coke from the blacksmiths forge. This is because it is compressed in the process of making it. It also has NO volitilea at all which natural coke has some making it easier to keep burning. So just mixing come coal with the foundry coke does not cure all the problems of using it. If you have a bellows or hand crank blower you need to use good blacksmiths coal (high grade bituminous coal) or charcoal (real wood lump charcoal). |
| - guru - Friday, 06/09/06 06:43:36 EDT |
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Alan, thanks for the link. WOW! That guy surely has an excellent shop. Not only am I jealous (the guy has almost every tool), but his shop is so CLEAN! I don't know if I want to fool around with a blown burner design like that yet. |
| - Nippulini - Friday, 06/09/06 07:52:50 EDT |
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Alan, that's an interesting page. I might make something like that to heat treat in. On a larger scale of course. I liked it very much, and even thought I was not the one who asked for it, Thank You! ---Rob |
| - Rob - Friday, 06/09/06 10:53:05 EDT |
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Ahhh boy scouts was where I got my pyro "fix" during my teenage years use of forbidden accelerants was the *norm*... while industrial coke is a difficult fuel to learn on it will do a bang up job for large industrial work. Coke firepots are usually *much* heavier than coal firepots because of the intense heat it generates. Thomas Thomas |
| Thomas P - Friday, 06/09/06 10:58:58 EDT |
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hello, I have limited knowledge of metals but this site looks great. My company etches .062 aluminum sheet on one side. because of the material removed from one side the sheet bows and rolls. I was wondering what would happen if i clamed the sheet and heating it, annealing??? I am not sure what temperature but have read 650-1000F?? So you think this will help flaten the peice? Thanks for you time i have some more information on my aluminum. it is T3 2024 .032". we tried some rolling but the process damaged the detail on the bored. Now i am looking for the temperature to do the stress relieving and wondering if i should do it before or after etching. I am going to look at ams 2770 and mil-h-6088 later today. I wondered if anyone had recomendations for temp and time, or pre or post etch. Thanks again |
| mjh368 - Friday, 06/09/06 11:25:56 EDT |
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If anyone is interested the forge that I have been refering to is molded with the inscriptions David Cummings, Chicago, USA on the left side and Cummings Forge No. 1, patented 24 July 1888 on the right side. There are other smaller numerical markings in various points. I am not interested particularly in whether it has any intrinsic value as it is a family heirloom and a keeper. I only hope that I can pass along some small knowledge to my son before I am too old to swing a hammer. Must learn fast, time waits for no man. Brummbaer |
| Brummbaer - Friday, 06/09/06 11:45:44 EDT |
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Currently Wal*Mart is selling "wood charcoal" to facilitate our Mexican friends style of barbecue cooking. Would this stuff work or is it too soft? Brummbaer |
| Brummbaer - Friday, 06/09/06 11:47:40 EDT |
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Take a look at eBay #6287625345. Appears to be a natural gas fired firepot of some sort. I assume it would have been filled with some type of refractory rock, otherwise it would have just had the bare flame. |
| Ken Scharabok - Friday, 06/09/06 12:21:42 EDT |
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Hello, I found a colonial style anvil I'm concidering buying to actualy use as a worker. I'm not sure on the age but it seems to be in very useable condition. (It's 130 pounds) From a a practical aspect, how usable are these with their wide face and lack of a pritchel hole? My current anvil is 80 pounds and I want the next anvil I buy to be one that I wont have to worry about replaces for quite some time. Thanks for your help! |
| BluSpecs - Friday, 06/09/06 12:41:09 EDT |
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Lack of a pritchel hole pre dates the anvil to the mid 1800's if I am correct. I have a 108 pound anvil with no pritchel and I do just fine with the hardie. A hardie tool with a round hole in it will suffice for most pritchel needs. If I'm wrong about this stuff, Guru can smack me around a bit. |
| - Nippulini - Friday, 06/09/06 13:15:36 EDT |
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Brummbaer, any *real* wood charcoal will work for forging---the japanese did all their sword forging with softwood charcoal. Charcoal usues much less air electric blowers are usually too much for a charcoal forge and they excell with hand crank, bellows or other slow more intermittant air system. Charcoal has about the same BTU's per pound as coal *but* a pound takes up a lot more space! Using charcoal in a coal forge is often facilitated by adding a couple of firebricks to make the firepot narrower and deeper. Charcoal was *THE* smithing fuel for the first thousand years of the iron age, coal not being introduced till the high to late middle ages and even then charcoal remained a popular fuel through today! BluSpecs Most of the world forges on anvils without pritchel holes. A wide face is generally considered better than a narrow face. My main shop anvil does not have a pritchel but at 500# is plenty wide (see Fisher-Norris link from the anvilfire anvil faq for a picture on it's twin) If you really feel the need of a pritchel why not make a tool to fit the hardy with a round hole in it? In fact why not make a holder to hold a bunch of different sized holes so you will have the "right" sized one for your work? Thomas |
| Thomas P - Friday, 06/09/06 13:23:46 EDT |
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I have a friend that has some coal that he is looking to get unload and I wanted to get some advise before I take it to use for blacksmithing. He says its in small pieces the largest being about 1/2 inch. It is really soft, almost like charcoal and he thinks it's bituminous. I guess it's hard to tell the quality until I burn it but I would welcome any advise. Thanks, Dan |
| Dan - Friday, 06/09/06 13:31:21 EDT |
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Thanks for the responces. This is a great place to find answers On a related note, I'm currently working out of the front of my garage around my car and various other stuff I don't want to damage and it's just too little space. I concidering converting a shed (6x8) on our property to a shop. Storage is not a problem, its the actual workspace. Is there such a thing as an ideal amoutn of space? |
| BluSpecs - Friday, 06/09/06 14:27:49 EDT |
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Dan, without using it it will be hard to know. give it a try. good luck sounds good from here. Ralph |
| Ralph - Friday, 06/09/06 14:46:16 EDT |
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Dan: I'm a chemist and we analyze hundreds (sometimes thousands) of coal samples eaxh year> the one thing I have learned I syou can't tell much about coal by looking. Sure if you can see rocks in it it will be high ash, but you have to see how it burns in the forge! |
| - John Odom - Friday, 06/09/06 15:01:01 EDT |
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Hi, I was wondering, i dropped a file a while ago, and it shattered, i have about 10 more of the same files from the set, i bought them cheap from my school, and was going to make knives out of them, will they break when i try to forge them>? can someone tell me how i can make knives with them? and, does it look cool if you only polish the edge part, and leave the spine and half the blade file like, for the design? Thanks Cam |
| Cameron - Friday, 06/09/06 15:22:38 EDT |
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Cameron, they wont shatter if you forge them. The file shattered when you dropped it because it was tempered at a low temperature. I have personally tried leaving the design on the file knives, and I loved the outcome. What exactly do you mean "how to make knives out of them"? Basically, just forge out the proper blade shape and tang, and go from there. ---Rob |
| - Rob - Friday, 06/09/06 18:02:36 EDT |
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are there any tricks to forging brass? |
| - stephen - Friday, 06/09/06 18:26:41 EDT |
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I'm exclusively a coke burner and need to add one thing to the line of thought above. If you don't have an Oxy/Acet torch (I use a propane/oxy mix with the appropriate tip on my cutting torch, acetelyne is too expensive to waste that way), then try soaking charcoal briquet quarters in gasoline, surround them with some small size kindling and bank with coke. Add coke on the top of the fire as I gets going. IMPORTANT...when you light the briquets make sure your fan is already on, or you'll get blowback and a good sized bang in the pipe leading to your fan below your tuyere. |
| Thumper - Friday, 06/09/06 18:50:03 EDT |
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Okay, so next question. The forge has an iron ring to contain the coal/coke/charcoal. I think that it is cast iron. Should I bed it in sand before building the fire inside the ring? Brummbaer |
| Brummbaer - Friday, 06/09/06 19:34:49 EDT |
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stephen---yes FIRST make sure it is a brass alloy that will forge---most of them won't! Secondly heat until you can barely see a glow in a *dark* room. Hammer Good luck. Thomas |
| Thomas P - Friday, 06/09/06 19:53:26 EDT |
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no clue what kind of alloy it is was a 85 cent bar from lee valley so i will experiment how do you weld brass or can you (in a forge) thanks |
| - stephen - Friday, 06/09/06 20:51:41 EDT |
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stephen-- make SURE you have lots of ventilation when heating brass!! |
| Miles Undercut - Friday, 06/09/06 20:57:12 EDT |
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thanks milles i'll be working outside |
| - stephen - Friday, 06/09/06 21:11:57 EDT |
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Forging Brass: See my iForge demo on brass candle sticks. The only trick is not melting it. Most forges are much too hot. I used a torch on a fire brick that was preheated so the brass would heat from both sides. If a flat piece becomes semi-molten just wait until it solidifies before moving it. Also not that no matter how long a pice of brass is you need tongs. |
| - guru - Friday, 06/09/06 22:13:01 EDT |
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My husband is starting blacksmithing as a hobby. ( I think he should learn the computer, so I don't have to be his secretary) ;) We live in MN and there are very few resources here. Can you send him any info - he is looking for a good beginning book. Thank you so much. M |
| Mary - Saturday, 06/10/06 08:35:36 EDT |
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Mary, You should take a look at the "Getting Started in Blacksmithing" FAQ on this site. It lists a number of resources that may be useful to you. As for books, "new Edge of the Anvil" by Jack Andrews is a great book. I have also found that "A Blacksmithing Primer" by Randy McDaniel to be a good book. Another good one is "The Art of Blacksmithing" by Alex Bealer. You should be able to get any of these through Amazon.com or you might even find them at your local library. |
| Steven Galonska - Saturday, 06/10/06 09:15:55 EDT |
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Mary, I would also have to add to Steven's post. I got started without any books. Just a lot of research online, and filtering through the bad information. It's free this way,and if he is determined enough he can do it through the internet as I did. The bad side is that it took me about 8-10 months to get all the information I needed out of it. ---Rob |
| - Rob - Saturday, 06/10/06 10:54:46 EDT |
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I am trying to punch through an old car axel (suspected car axel that is) that is about 1 5/16" diameter and 18 inches long. I want to punch through it length-wise so make a 2" long turnip shaped pommel. I managed to heat it in my forge, but I have only gotten about 5/8" in. Should I make it in pieces instead, cut the axel down to length before punching to allow for expansion, etc.? Thanks in advance! ---Rob |
| - Rob - Saturday, 06/10/06 10:58:07 EDT |
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Rob, For most tasks keeping the piece on the bar is best but not for punching axialy. Cut it off. When punching medium to high carbon steel you only have a few moments to work on small pieces. So you work hot, hit a couple blows on the punch, cool the punch, heat the steel and go again. Punch lubricant and cooler helps a LOT. You can dip the punch in grease between heats. This is a common method but not the best. If you use coal and have a good grade the dust works well by sprinkling it into the started hole then punching. The coal dust has just enough volitiles to gas off and cool the punch and the carbon acts as a lubricant. This is a very traditional method that works fairly well. Another is to use beeswax but I don't think it works as good as grease. Then there are modern punch lubes. The folks at BigBLU Hammers sell what they call "Puncheize". You dip the punch in it and let it dry on the punch. The lube is a mix of graphite and molybdenum disulphide. PTree also has some industrial product that he redistributes. Not sure what is in it. Either is a good product and makes punching a lot easier. |
| - guru - Saturday, 06/10/06 11:14:45 EDT |
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The punch and forge lube I advocate (but do not redistribute) is a Henkel Surface Technologies product. Sold in industry by the tank car and bulk tote. It is an alkanline salt in a polymer base that leaves a dry, solid film on the tool. Only works when applied to a tool hot enough to flash off the water. It is available through an industrial distributor here in Louisville that has agreed to repackage for our trade in single gallons and 5 gallon pails. If interested, email me for the contact. Tell them you saw it on Anvilfire as I am trying to get them to advertise. |
| - ptree - Saturday, 06/10/06 17:50:32 EDT |
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Ptree, what is the price range? I'm short on money at the moment, due to a trip to mexico I hope to go on in July which costs $475, but if it's not too much I'll gladly buy some. Thank you again! ---Rob |
| - Rob - Saturday, 06/10/06 18:19:09 EDT |
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How much is a gallon and what is the contact point? |
| Ken Scharabok - Saturday, 06/10/06 18:35:57 EDT |
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Mary: If You show Your husband this site[in it's entirety] and I forge iron.com He may decide it is time to start using the computer Himself. There is a wealth of information on these 2 sites, how to's and plans, tips, etc. |
| Dave Boyer - Saturday, 06/10/06 22:11:40 EDT |
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Punch Coolant? We have a small farm, and one year we rendered out a lot of beef fat to obtain high-quality tallow (from the fat around the kidneys, if anyone is curious - I had to ask, too). It is solid at room temperature, though somewhat the consistency of shoe polish. Would it be a useful punch coolant, or perhaps a quenching agent? (I discovered that there's another TimS around, so I'll defer to him on the "true" name, and revert to my nickname I use elsewhere) |
| Paymeister (AKA TimS the Newbie) - Saturday, 06/10/06 22:19:24 EDT |
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Does anyone have any good material on hand forged chain making? I have seen a couple of methods for doing this somewhere but I cannot find them anymore. can someone help please? I am looking more for the type of chain that is riveted rather than just the heat, forge weld type of chain making. Thanks! Ed |
| Ed Green - Saturday, 06/10/06 22:48:55 EDT |
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Browsed the site and found the FAQ which led to still further research. Many questions answered. Probably a lot more answers out there that have been asked for time and again. I discovered that there is a blacksmithing group only 110 miles from where I live, so will be attending their July meeting. Thanks for the politness to allow me to ask the obvious. Brummbaer |
| Brummbaer - Saturday, 06/10/06 22:50:53 EDT |
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Ed, See our book review page way down at the bottom. This is THE chain book. However, it is all forge welded. The books will be available again from Richard Postman in September. The only riveted chain that I know of is old chain mail links. These have flattened ends and very small brads. AND there are modern repair links that have have rivets formed as part of the die forging. These are the only riveted chains that I know of. In general this is a very weak link and not used very much. |
| - guru - Saturday, 06/10/06 23:14:33 EDT |
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Paymeister, Yes and yes. The tallow is pretty good for a punch coolant, while the punch is in use. Horseshoe forging contestants have been known to use something similar on their pritchels as they work, usually beeswax or paraffin. One of my mentors, Victor Vera, said that in Old Mexico, he used beef tallow (sebo) as a lubricant when using his taps and dies. |
| Frank Turley - Saturday, 06/10/06 23:29:33 EDT |
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For beginners looking for their first anvil as I did, let me tell you what I did. A lot of farm tractors have huge slabs of steel bolted to the front end to act as a counterweight. I got one of these. It is nothing professional, but will allow you to forge and weld until you can do better. Hope this info is useful. |
| Mike Thompson - Sunday, 06/11/06 01:26:08 EDT |
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Dear Guru, I read your article on Gen X swordmaking and I found it very educational and I like your sense of humor. I am 23 years old, a US Army veteran and I have always respected the Japanese katana. For acouple of years now I have purchased a few swords and done some research on metallurgy. Most of which, I have no idea what is going on. However, I don't want the typical American sterotype of the short route and learning from a master blacksmith. I want to learn to create a quality sword I can take pride in and use for moderate cutting. Your article opened a new door for me and I will drop the cash for the books. I do have a few questions for you primarily about swords. I read your myths portion of the Gen X article and in a seperate article I read the sharpness of a blade was measured by a 1-12 point scale of sword strokes used on the human body. 12 would be a generally simple stroke at the wrist and 1 would be an extreme stroke across the mid-section thru the hip bones and etched onto the sword tang. Can you smelt a rail-road rail for a sword?? What is the strongest, most wear resistent sword metal out there?? Folded Damascus?? What about Diamond coated?? I really appreciate your time and knowledge you put into this site. Very resptfully, Army_13 Monterey, CA |
| Army_13 - Sunday, 06/11/06 02:02:30 EDT |
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Mary: A new book which would be good for your husband's reading is The Backyard Blacksmith: Traditional Techniques for the Modern Smith by Lorelei Sims - yep, a woman blacksmith. Works through the basics (including tool and equipment acquisition) and then has 20 some projects reinforcing those techniques. Wonderful photogrpahs and illustrations. Book is also sprinkled with various work and safety tips and techniques. It is on eBay and should be hitting bookstores about now. SRP: $25.00. Ms. Sims will be at the ABANA conference next month and likely at Quad-State if you would like to get your copy signed. |
| Ken Scharabok - Sunday, 06/11/06 06:55:15 EDT |
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Army_13, Swordmaking is generally regarded as the highest level of smithing although some, including myself, disagree. It is near the top due to the difficulty of the techniques involved and the understanding of the metallurgical processes required. We have several accomplished bladesmiths who visit here. Nevertheless, our primary focus is on general smithing. We would be happy to tell you what we know and would also encourage you to visit the other sites dedicated to swords, such as the Sword Forum, Don Fogg (www.dfoggknives.com) and others. Here, you can converse with some of the best in the business. I am always amazed at the willingness of these professionals to share their knowlege and insights with everyone. To address your questions, start with something forgiving, like 5160 (leaf springs from an old auto) for your first sword. You can move to Damascus when you have learned the basics of hammer control and heat treating. Come back and let us know how you are progressing. |
| quenchcrack - Sunday, 06/11/06 08:06:02 EDT |
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OK GUYS SORRY TO BOTHER YOU ......BUT IM POSTING THIS FOR A FRIEND ....HE IS LOOKING TO BUY A USED SA 250 DIESEL WELDER EITHER PERKINS OR DEUTZ, ANYONE WHO CAN EMAIL ME SOME INFO. ON ONE WOULD GREATLY BE APRECIATED!! |
| mary - Sunday, 06/11/06 08:32:15 EDT |
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Mary- an SA-250 is a pipeline machine- a big, heavy industrial welder. They weigh between a 1000 and 1500lbs, depending on engine. Which means you want to buy one close to where you live. The majority of deals on used ones are in the oil patch- Texas, Oklahoma, and thereabouts. A diesel SA-250 in decent shape is going to run around 5 grand, no matter where you are. Personally, I would buy one from a local dealer- the small price markup is easily made up for by having the good will and service of your local guys. But you can look at www.americanweldingsupply.com- they are a texas company that always has a few used 250's, and know their stuff about these machines. Interestingly enough, the big boys in the field are converting these machines to Yanmar diesels- more power, less maintenance, and incredible fuel efficiency. |
| - Ries - Sunday, 06/11/06 10:12:11 EDT |
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Ken and Rob, The punch lube is about $30 for a gallon, and as it is Shippable as non-haz, shipping is easy. The contact is Ted Mitzlaff J & M Labs 502-585-3176 tmitzlaff@jmlaboratories.com Ask for the P3 Forge 185 forge lube. This lube does not seperate, freezing does not hurt it, just thaw, and it does not smoke, or burn. It is shipped in a concentrate form, dilute to about 20% concentrate to water. As you use it it will evaporate, just add a little water from time to time. Remember that it ONLY works as a solid film so it needs to be applied to a hot tool. I have changed my routine to dip the tools after every use, and it is always ready for the next use, even weeks later. While I would not drink it, it is very safe to use. |
| - ptree - Sunday, 06/11/06 10:19:08 EDT |
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Army_13, I commend your attention to a biography of Keith Austin, who studied bladesmithing in Japan. www.ncjsc.org/article_keith_austin.htm Keith was a man who had DESIRE! He said that in his nine year apprenticeship, he got two days off, remembering that they don't have weekends in Japan. When asked why he got two days off, he replied, "Because the Master took them off!" |
| Frank Turley - Sunday, 06/11/06 10:46:21 EDT |
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Hello Guru Your work here is wonderful.I want to work on the stone cutting field, soon will be welding diamond segments on blades, but really I need knowledge about saw smithing, how to remove the wobble of a blade. I know it's done with a hammer, necessary it's a cold work, it seems they only hammer the center of the blade ? I did beleive the peripheral of a circular blade should be "bigger" to pull on the center, like a bicycle wheel. I think this is a real complex theory to learn ! do you know something about it, and is any books existing on the topic so I could learn it ? Thanks very much really, I am already so desperate by advance thinking of my first "wobbling" blade, maybe by my fault after a welding, and getting fired because the blade is lost ! |
| francois - Sunday, 06/11/06 13:42:16 EDT |
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Hello - first, a little bit about me. I'm an aspiring blacksmith from Glendale, California. I haven't done too much work yet. However, I have completed a rather complex wrought iron gate , the pictures of which I'll soon be putting up on a website. I'm interested in making many things, old fashioned locks, hinges, armor, and also guns. Gunsmithing is a different field than blacksmithing, of course. But I'm sure at one time a blacksmith might have had to double as a gunsmith, to make the barrel of the rifle, and possibly the inner workings. I was wondering if there exists an introductory type book to gunsmithing, something akin to the Spruce Forge Manual of Locksmithing. Something that gets real basic, and explains how the gun was made in the old days with blacksmithing procedures. PS: Thank you for this great web site. |
| - Raffi Aidiniantz - Sunday, 06/11/06 16:15:21 EDT |
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Hello - first, a little bit about me. I'm an aspiring blacksmith from Glendale, California. I haven't done too much work yet. However, I have completed a rather complex wrought iron gate , the pictures of which I'll soon be putting up on a website. I'm interested in making many things, old fashioned locks, hinges, armor, and also guns. Gunsmithing is a different field than blacksmithing, of course. But I'm sure at one time a blacksmith might have had to double as a gunsmith, to make the barrel of the rifle, and possibly the inner workings. I was wondering if there exists an introductory type book to gunsmithing, something akin to the Spruce Forge Manual of Locksmithing. Something that gets real basic, and explains how the gun was made in the old days with blacksmithing procedures. PS: Thank you for this great web site. |
| - Raffi Aidiniantz - Sunday, 06/11/06 16:15:40 EDT |
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how can i become a blacksmiths apprentice? |
| - zak fussing - Sunday, 06/11/06 17:14:12 EDT |
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Dear Zak, The very best thing for you to do at this point is read Guru's fine essay, "Getting Started in Blacksmithing". The link to it is at the bottom right side of the page you're viewing now. The next step is to read carefully the article on Apprenticeships. That one can be found using a link at the bottom of the "Getting Started" essay. The folks here have tremendous knowledge and experience, and will do everything they can to help a willing student. However, part of being a willing student is to do one's homework... and you need to read these essays before you do ANYTHING else. Then, spend a few nights considering what you find... then come back here and start reading the archives. You'll learn a lot! And the folks here will be impressed (and much more willing to help) if you show you've made these efforts. Hope this helps... I'm a newbie, too, and it is highly embarassing for me to realize that I've just asked a question that has been answered many times over. Let's be good to each other, and do our homework! These are good folks here, and we need to respect their time (and good will in posting the essays, articles, and advice). |
| Paymeister (AKA TimS the Newbie) - Sunday, 06/11/06 18:00:30 EDT |
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Presentation ideas! Well folks! Being the lucky blacksmith that I am I was able to land a great job (as a blacksmith) in a Fort historic site. Having done some public blacksmithing demos and presentations with limited success in the past, I am officially begging for ideas and suggestions to spice up a good presentations. Humour, facts, projects, experiences ...anything....please..(on my knees)...please... |
| Louis - Sunday, 06/11/06 19:17:01 EDT |
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making a striker for starting fires. using tranmisson fluid to harden. |
| - fatboy - Sunday, 06/11/06 20:59:04 EDT |
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making a striker for starting fires. using tranmisson fluid to harden. doesn"t make a good spark. |
| - fatboy - Sunday, 06/11/06 21:01:26 EDT |
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fatboy-- what I do with strikers, chispas, is use pieces of old worn-out files as the material. Forge to shape. Heat to white, just below sparking. There are those who will say that is too hot. It works for me. You then have ONE SECOND to get the striker into the quench to achieve maximum hardness. I use water. Then decarburize, lightly grinding off the firescale on the striking edge. Be SURE you are using real flint. Strike with a sharp glancing blow of the edge of the striker on the thin edge of the flint. (Arguments have raged for centuries around campfires about whether instead you should strike the striker with the flint. That's what makes horseracing.) |
| Miles Undercut - Sunday, 06/11/06 21:07:32 EDT |
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Louis, If you ever make a dragon head at a demo. And some smart guy tries to start a you-know-what contest by telling you it doesn't look like a dragon ask him, HAVE YOU EVER SEEN A DRAGON?!?! |
| - Tyler Murch - Sunday, 06/11/06 21:27:42 EDT |
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Louis: Two books you might consider are The Revolutionary Blacksmith by PawPaw Wilson (available through the Anvilfire Store) and The Blacksmith, Ironworker and Farrier (formerly The Village Blacksmith)by Aldren A. Watson. Your local library may be able to obtain a loaner copy for you. Since you mentioned 'fort', I assume you are in the 1700s period. The latter book would be much latter, but little in basic blacksmithing likely changed and it gives you a good idea of what at least a New England blacksmith of that period (1885 - 1910) would have made. |
| Ken Scharabok - Sunday, 06/11/06 21:31:18 EDT |
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Fatboy you didn't tell us what you made it from and what you did to it (what colour did you quench it at? Was it non-magnetifc at that point?); best we can do is to guess. Louis; talk to a local historian and find out if there are any daybooks archived for the forge---try to find out what the smith actually did, how much was he paid?---was any of it in beer? How many helpers did he have, how much were they paid? Where did he get his metal and charcoal? *Know* your history! I'd suggest keeping a piece of real wrought iron around showing the "green stick fracture" so you can discuss the differences from working then and working now. Will you be in costume? if so make *SURE* that it's linen, wool or leather and not some "mix" that is a timebomb waiting to go off when you get some hot metal against it. Remember that you can be a good smith or a good interpreter but don't expect to do both at the same time. If you have something that *has&* to be done and done right; get someone else to talk for you! Make sure that kids don't crawl under your crowd control barrier and get too close. Thomas |
| Thomas P - Sunday, 06/11/06 22:04:11 EDT |
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Tuning Saw Blades: Well. . it is an art. And in most cases the blade should be left alone. You can easily make things worse. I have been told that most problems that people believe are blade tuning problems are mill alignment and operational problems, not the blade. Yes, it is done cold using a stand to rotate the blade, a special flat anvil (called a sawyers anvil) and a heavy hammer. As far as I know it is one of the last few arts that is passed down from person to person. The tools are still sold but I could not find them on the web. The obvious search words bring you back to here. |
| - guru - Sunday, 06/11/06 22:58:04 EDT |
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Gunsmithing: We have some fine gunsmiths on this forum and I am sure they will tell you that nothing is as simple as it seems. Get every book you can and study, study, study. The Dixie Gun Works catalog (if they are still around) is a good starting place). The catalog itself is a great reference and they used to care books and plans. Use ABE or Bookfinder and search on the terms and buy every book you can find on the specific subject. Basic blacksmithing skills are required and so are machinist's skills. Welded barrels are rarely made today and most gunsmiths use barrels drilled from solid steel. This is much safer and removes a significant bit of libility. Most modern gunsmiths start with making repairs to old guns or assembling kits and then extending their knowledge from there. There is a film titled "The Gunsmith of Williamsburg" that covers the entire process of making a long rifle by hand in a small shop. They do everything from welding, boring and rifeling the barrel to casting the furniture and making brass plate. You may still be able to get a copy from the Colonial Wiliamsburg Foundation, Williamsburg, VA. |
| - guru - Sunday, 06/11/06 23:08:33 EDT |
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Demos and Patter: First, you make NOTHING that cannot be finished in one or two heats. Nails, hooks (J, drive and S). Leaves if you are good. Longer demos and folks look and leave. Make things you can make with your eyes closed. Explain that the steel needs to be hot to be soft enough to work but is not so soft that it still does not take a BIG hammer. Know how hot the fire is (3,000 to 3,200F) and that steel burns at 2600. Teach the BASICs. You will have 60 seconds to just short of 5 minutes. Address your talk to the youngest children there, the parents probably do not know more than the 8 year old. It helps to know some of the site's history but you are only going to get those questions from 1 out of 100. The rest will be, how hot is it?, do you ever get burned?, is there a lot of money in blacksmithing. . . |
| - guru - Sunday, 06/11/06 23:20:46 EDT |
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"Saw Doctoring" Correct me if I'm wrong. The old time circular blades were dished, and would straighten out losing the dish, when the rpm was up. I am told that the contemporary blades are alloy steel and are made flat, eliminating the necessity of dishing. I worked on a fairly new, flat one some years ago, about 14" in diameter. It was slightly warped. The owner said he would not hold me responsible if I screwed it up by hammering on it cold. I was able to level it to his satisfaction, and it wasn't returned to the shop for further work. Louis, The alpha guru's advice is right on. No one is going to give you a sense of humor, however. Some responses might help. To the query, is that hot, we sometimes say, "Give me a quarter, and I'll lick it." Whe you receive the quarter, lick the quarter and put it in your pocket. Have you ever been burned? "Yeah, but I got rid of her (or him as the case may be). Thanks to Lorelie Simms for that one. What're ya makin? "About a dollar and a quarter an hour." What's that black stuff you're burning? Tom Turtzo of Pennsylvania says that it's cottage cheese, spray-painted black. How about, "You don't LOOK like a blacksmith!" "How many blacksmiths have you ever seen?" |
| Frank Turley - Sunday, 06/11/06 23:46:20 EDT |
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francois: As I understand You will be repairing the blade by welding new diamond segments onto it. I have a big diamond blade from a pavement cutter that was repaired, the reason I have it is because it has radial cracks from the edje going a couple inches toward the center, and one section of diamond has been broken out. It was discarded by the local tool rental company. Maybee it is fatigue, or maybee the repair wasn't done properly, I will never know. My suggestion is that You find out all You can about the welding procedure, and hopefully You will be able to weld the diamond segments without putting stresses into the blade that will cause wobble. What little I know about blades has more to do with sawmill blades, but I guess the principals would be the same. As You mentioned the periphery of the blade is supposed to keep the center in tension, but only a little bit at operating speed. Hammering displaces the metal where it is hit causing it to expand around the hammer blows, the trick being to know where and how much to hammer. In sawmill blades a blade that runs true will start to wobble if friction against the side of the blade causes expansion on that part of the blade. I do not think that the blade repair is a job for an amature, If they have been doing it sucessfully in the past there must be somebody there to teach You. If that person isn't there anymore it is thier problem, not Yours. |
| Dave Boyer - Monday, 06/12/06 00:00:29 EDT |
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Frank: My Dad had a Frick 00 mill. That is a small comercial mill from about 100 years ago, about what You see at historic sites here in Pensylvania. I guess the blade was probably from the same eara, it took tooth inserts and could theoretically be used indefinatly. That blade had no obvious dish as I remember it. It ran true, but would get wobbly if ran too fast or if the log had stresses in it that caused it to rub the blade. The old guy who brokered the mill [and had been running these small mills for many years]said that many inexperienced guys that set up thier own mills would have blade problems and want to get the blade hammered. He said the problems were not the fault of the blade [it had worked for 50-75 years previously] but of improper setup of the mill or the operator not learning what the blade liked and didn't like. |
| Dave Boyer - Monday, 06/12/06 00:24:04 EDT |
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"FORT " COULD ALSO MEAN THE HBC FORT AS IT HAS AN EXTENSIVE HISTORY. IN CLUDIND TYHE LONGEST WORKING SMITH AND WHEEL WRIGHT IN THE AREA. SINCE ABOUT 1825;ISH FELLOW BY THE NAME OF william Cannon wasburied up near the Top of the hill real nice view |
| Ralph - Monday, 06/12/06 08:36:45 EDT |
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I'm trying to bend 50 fairly good looking circles for an armature/sculpture from 3/16" (or 1/4")steel rod. My problem is that I need a simple way to bend them, and I need to bend four different radii (1.5 - 5"). The jig I made from two pieces of steel pipe on angle iron in a vice(bending between) only really makes nice arcs and can't do the small radius circles. Likewise, chainmail techniques are too small, and the usual tools for bending pipe/conduit are too wide to handle the narrow steel rod. I'm a novice at finer fabrication, sadly. |
| Bobbie - Monday, 06/12/06 11:54:21 EDT |
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Bobbie, see our Benders articles on our 21st Century page. For light duty bending you can cut your jigs out of plywood. This is easy to make full circle jigs. Remember to make them a little undersize for spring back. IF you cut full circles mark the center and then about 10% off center make another mark. Put a nail here into a 2x4 about 4" longer than the diameter of the circle. Use a heavy nail or a block attached to the 2x4 as a work holder spaced a little farther or the circle than the thickness of the bar to be bent. Clamp the 2x4 in a vise. In use you can rotate the disk to clamp the bar you are bending and then as you pull on the bar it will hold itself in position as you bend it. If work falling off the jig is a problem then use a larger plywood circle under the bending circle. If these are to be used over and over you may want to drill the off center pivot hole for a 3/8" bolt. It is also good practice to mark the size on each bender when you make several that are similar. |
| - guru - Monday, 06/12/06 12:43:31 EDT |
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More on ring benders: Bobbie, you said chainmail techniques wouldn't work but they should do just fine for the smaller rings. If you use a couple foot long piece of pipe for your mandrel you can wind up a long coil then hacksaw it into pieces. Instead of turning the mandrel in a drill you clamp it in a vise verticaly and walk the bar around (assuming enough space to work). It could also be done by hand cranking but this would require more setup and fabrication than I think you are interested in. Of course lengths of pipe are no always easy to come by either. Hard wood mandrels could also work. |
| - guru - Monday, 06/12/06 13:10:56 EDT |
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Passing of a Great Friend This past weekend Russel Jaqua left us after a valiant struggle with ALS. He was diagnosed nearly three years ago and given 12-18 months. Way to go, Russ. He was a dear friend for the past 30 years, with a very creative and somewhat lost soul. No one could create such beauty with only flat dies. Without any sort of tooling he would turn a bar into something alive. I'll always remember when he said "Blacksmiths are kinda the Hell's Angels of the art world"! Well, I always thought of Russ as the Bob Dylan of the blacksmith world. Damn, we're sure gonna miss you Russ! Some of you may have known Russ or his art or his anvils; he operated Nimba Forge in Port Townsend WA and made the famous Nimba anvils. His Wife will carry on the business. Memorial will be Thursday at 2:00 at the Catholic Church in Port Townsend. |
| - grant - Monday, 06/12/06 13:38:09 EDT |
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Thank you Grant. |
| - guru - Monday, 06/12/06 15:38:21 EDT |
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Bobbie: If you can find different diameter pipes to fit all the sizes you need, you only have to have 3" - 4" lengths to weld to angle iron for a jig. Bend the rod all the way around the piece of appropriate size pipe to make your circle. Scrolling tongs with the jaws at a 90 degree angle will help a lot to hold the rod to the pipe while you bend. Then you'll have a permanent jig to use and all the circles will come out the same size. |
| - rthibeau - Monday, 06/12/06 16:00:57 EDT |
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Bobbie: Using the jigs that the others described You may find it helpfull to slide a 6"-12" length of 1/4" pipe over the rod You are bending to act as a handle, just kep sliding it along the rod as You wind it around the pipe on the jig. A drilled hole can be used to ancor the starting end of the rod, pry ithe end out or cut it off after the rod is wound enough turns, tack welding is another alternative. |
| Dave Boyer - Monday, 06/12/06 21:47:14 EDT |
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Gunsmithing: Dixie is still around and have a GREAT list of books available. Their catalogue is the best investment for someone interested in blackpowder gunsmithing. Check their website: http://www.dixiegun.com/ |
| JLW - Monday, 06/12/06 22:15:53 EDT |
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Hello! I've been trying to get started blacksmithing, and have been working with a friend to start our own gas forge. He has a small anvil, but that's about all the equipment we have thus far. I don't have a lot of contacts to go to for help or suggestions or for apprenticing where I live, so I had a quick question regarding the "beginners kit" offered at www.centaurforge.com. http://www.centaurforge.com/prodinfo.asp?number=BKSKIT I don't have an apron, gloves, hammer, tongs, or anything close to the sorts. Plus the video doesn't look half bad either. What do you guys think? For $155 is this worth investing into? Or should I go a different route? Thanks! Glen |
| Glen - Tuesday, 06/13/06 07:30:35 EDT |
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Starter Kit: The problem with these things is they have a lot of things you need but may already have or may not be as important to you. You need the safety glasses. An apron is nice but not a necessity. The tongs type would not be my first choice. But if the money is not going to hurt you then go ahead, you will need all this eventually. For the stand alone cost of the video you can get The Art of Blacksmithing plus another book. I am not familiar with the Hershel House video so I cannot comment on it. The value of many of the blacksmithing videos is pretty low unless you NEED to see someone doing something and cannot pick it up from a book. In this case you are better off to get to a local organization meet and watch things live. But videos can be educational as well. Where the blacksmithing videos I have seen fall down is that they don't start with the REAL basics. Proper anvil size, how high to mount the anvil. Forge safety. Newbies need to be told where to stand and repeatedly, STAND CLOSER TO THE ANVIL. You want to hover over the anvil like a mother bird protecting its nest. Take posession of it! There is also working posture, don't hunch over, stand up straight. On this count MANY smiths are bad examples. Holding your hammer lighty and hitting hard by swinging the hammer, NOT pumping it. Pumping with your forearm and wrist will wreck your arm and many smiths do it immediately after saying don't do it. . . . Then there is the question, how "small" an anvil? If it is too small (less than 100 pounds) then you need to scale down the size of work you do and hammer you use. OR start looking for a bigger anvil. See my Selecting an Anvil article. It all comes down to your budget. Many newbies to this craft are teenagers with no money and limited transportation. Scrounging and make-do are the key skills for these folks. Someone with a job, looking for a hobby, and has some disposable income may do just fine with the Centaur kit. However, it is just a start and many hobbiests end up with near professional shops including power hammers. A good blacksmiths' leg vise is indispensable if you have ever used one, an AC buzz box arc welder may not be part of your style of blacksmithing but they are almost indispensable for making tools, jigs and so on. Then for many things we do, especially small work but also cutting plate an oxyacetylene welding setup is next on the list. I usualy recommend getting started with as little as possible and finding out if this is what you want to do. It can be very frustrating at first because the metal does not move for you like it does for others. . for that you need lots and lots of practice. |
| - guru - Tuesday, 06/13/06 08:49:01 EDT |
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Grant? How many times do we toll the anvil for Mr Jaqua on Thursday? |
| JimG - Tuesday, 06/13/06 09:22:11 EDT |
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Glen if you would hint at where you live perhaps we could suggest a local contact... Thomas |
| Thomas P - Tuesday, 06/13/06 10:35:23 EDT |
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Raffi, on learning black powder gunsmithing: First, take a look at Foxfire 5. and the video the Guru mentioned. If you still want to continue, keeping in mind that in that video Mr. Gusler makes everything look MUCH easier than it actually is, I recommend "Notes from a Small Iowa Rifle Shop" by Steve Bookout. This is a thin spiral-bound paperback of photocopied sheets chock full of info on how to get it done with simple, if not always traditional, tools. You may be able to find Mr. Bookout on the web by searching for "Toad Hall Rifleshop and Yaller Tomcat Forge" but I haven't tried that. |
| Alan-L - Tuesday, 06/13/06 11:12:39 EDT |
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Guru, The cheap mild steel I use for most of my projects is very prone to rusting. I've been coating with a flat black paint, but I want a more natural finish. I've been considering satin polyurethane, or possibly "seasoning" with lard, like is done cast iron cookware. Can you recommend anything? |
| T.N. Miller - Tuesday, 06/13/06 11:32:20 EDT |
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how old do you need to be in order to learn blacksmithing? |
| Koneko M. Akuma - Tuesday, 06/13/06 12:10:30 EDT |
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i am 14 but i am a female and from what i hear females havent been considered for learning blacksmithing |
| - Koneko M. Akuma - Tuesday, 06/13/06 12:39:38 EDT |
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Young Student: Koneko, I have taught people as young as eight years. However, this is a little early to leave a student unsupervised in the shop. Age 13 or 14 as you are is a better minimum age for both physical and mental reasons. In some societies blacksmithing is considered to be men's work only. This is still true in many places. However, in North America where blacksmithing almost died out then came back largely as an art form women have been welcomed into the ranks of blacksmiths. The fact that their are few compared to men is a general social trend that men do mechanical things and women do not. However, there is no reason for women to not to be in the mechanical trades. In the past certain blacksmithing jobs were done primarily by women. Making small chain was considered delicate work that required a woman's touch even though the work was the same as making larger chain. In England small chain shops were operated primarily by women. Blacksmithing as an art or production craft is a mechanical trade. It requires people interested in learning about mechanics and physics, how tools work, how to operate and maintain machines. As an art form, whether making a sword, a forged flower or a large gate it IS art and requires the skill to see things as an artist, to understand symmetry and balance, to see lines for what they are or are not, how to draw or think as an artist. Let us know if we can be of further help finding your way. |
| - guru - Tuesday, 06/13/06 14:01:35 EDT |
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Finishes: T.N. Miller, Finishes either protect steel from rusting or they do not. Waxes and oil finishes are amature paint formulations that require continued maintenance. Use professionaly formulated paints and finishes according to the instructions. Not that almost no clear finish prevents oxidation from occuring under the finish as they alow the exchange of oxygen and moisture. The only "natural" finish for iron is rust. Rust that will eventually turn your work to dust. Search our archives for "finishes" and you will find the same over ad over along with more details. |
| - guru - Tuesday, 06/13/06 14:08:07 EDT |
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Hey Guys, thanks very much for the valuable responses you have given me. I am 26 with a job and a bit of a disposable income. This is something I want to pursue as a hobby, but maybe eventually if I enjoy it enough throttle back on my real job and work with metal more. We will have to see. I live in Southeastern Pennsylvania. I will have to do some more research first I guess before I start buying. Also, the anvil size we have right now is 27lbs, but I think he's looking upwards of 80-120lb anvil here in the new future. I've seen how expensive these can be, so I think I'm going to pound around on his first before I start setting up something of my own. The downfall is that he lives over an hour away in Maryland. Thanks! Glen |
| Glen - Tuesday, 06/13/06 15:16:53 EDT |
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Koneko M. Akuma: Where do you live? I started smithing at 12, but that was in the Philippines where there were no restrictive laws and few lawsuits. Here in the US, child labor and safety legal considerations make it much harder for an ambitious kid. It would be easiest if you can find a hobbiest smith to become a "friend of the family" that could teach you. Some of the clubs take in young people with parent's consent. Our club here in Chattanooga TN does. A commercial shop could not have you present because of the leagal problems. |
| - John Odom - Tuesday, 06/13/06 15:53:20 EDT |
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Koneko M. Akuma My oldest daughter going to my shop as a child of 4 or 5, and started smithing with careful supervision at about 11 or 12. She sold enough iron work to pay for a couple of second hand cars while in high school. My second daughter has followed the same path, and does some light forging. As both my girls are TINY, I had to adapt for them. At first I put them up on a wood box to reach the anvil. Now I have a second anvil and have a short stand for them. My 14 year old is about 4'-11" and 100 pounds, and swings a small hammer, but is having fun, and makes some money from doing thems for me like cutting steel to lenght, deburring and toting and fetching. As she gets more skill she will be able to advance more. All this is in America. Many societies frown on females doing anything that might be seen as mens work. I hope that you live in an area that does not have these issues. Good luck |
| ptree - Tuesday, 06/13/06 19:22:48 EDT |
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Anybody have any experience with 18/8 stainless? Is it forgeable or weldable? My daughter wants me to seriously modify her horse's bit. It's American made, believe it or not, but it's lost wax cast so I don't want to jump right on it without info. Help ASAP; 13yr girls are not the most patient creatures. brian |
| goodhors - Tuesday, 06/13/06 19:39:42 EDT |
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Leave us not forget that some of the best blacksmiths in the land are of the female persuasion: Lorelei Sims is one example. Another, Dorothy Steigler, went to Frank Turley's smiting academy in Santa Fe in the 1970s, became president of ABANA. Both will be starring at the ABANA camporee in Sattle. |
| Miles Undercut - Tuesday, 06/13/06 19:59:21 EDT |
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Koneko: At the last PABA Hammer In a 9-10 year old girl did a demo making an "S" hook, it looked pretty good. Her Dad & Mom are really active in the organization, the kid has probably been smithing since She could see over the anvil. |
| Dave Boyer - Tuesday, 06/13/06 21:52:42 EDT |
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Glen:There is a lot of activity in southeast PA and in Maryland. Unfortunatly You just missed 2 really good events in the last 2 weeks. On equiptment, At Rough & Tumble last weekend [near Lancaster, Pa.] there was a farrier's competetion along with the Blacksmith's Days events. Only a couple guys brought thier heavy shop anvil, a few used specialized farrier's anviles, a few used a 100# anvil being produced by one of the participants. About half of them used an Emerson 150[#]Tradition anvil. Now I recognize that the farrier trade is a different but related trade, but they were forging steel at least as large as what most artist blacksmiths would forge by hand. Mind You this was serious competetion, some had travled far to come to it. My point is that a 120# to 150 # anvil is a good choice unless You plan to do a lot of really heavy work with Your buddy swinging a sledge hammer. The 100# anvil that a few used has a good bit of the mass centered under the middle and a small tapered European style heel. Don't buy a small anvil that is all horn and heel, as the mass isn't where it does the most good. I am a beginner smith but experienced in other forms of metal work. I am near Pottstown, E-mail Me if You want[ click on My name at the bottom of the post]. |
| Dave Boyer - Tuesday, 06/13/06 22:14:17 EDT |
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18-8 Stainless This is roughly the same as 302 through 304 stainless. Should weld with standard SS welding techniques. Forgeable depends on the quality of the casting and the alloy chemistry when it was cast but it should forge like 304. |
| - guru - Tuesday, 06/13/06 23:20:08 EDT |
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T.N.Miller I like the colors of rust, so what I do is galvanize my work, then patina back to the rust look using "galvano rust" a product by Surfin in Los Angeles, Ca. |
| brian kennedy - Tuesday, 06/13/06 23:47:11 EDT |
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I read when forge welding do not use a wedge type scarf, but always use a cupped scarf. Someone please explain. |
| Mike T. - Wednesday, 06/14/06 01:05:18 EDT |
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Weld Scarfs: Mike it depends on the joint type. The point is to have convex surfaces mate or convex on flat leaving a path for the flux and dross to squeeze out when you close the weld. If someone sugessted a concave scarf they are wrong or you read wrong. This traps the dross and makes a weak weld. The only time a concave scarf would be used is if the oposite side was more convex (a tighter radius). You also do not want too sharp of edges on your scarfs as they will burn an leave a weak closing edge. Leave the edges slighty thick or rounded. The point of upsetting at a weld it to provide more mass so that you can dress out the imperfections without reducing the bar or part size at the weld or to leave enough material for fillets in a T-weld. |
| - guru - Wednesday, 06/14/06 08:03:53 EDT |
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Finishes: As Brian noted you can galvanize and put any finish you want over it. In his case it is a special product to use on galvanizing. In most cases the zinc needs to be aged, treated with an acid etch or a special non-ferrous primer used (they make one for zinc and aluminum). Using spray cans OR a spray gun for large projects you can blend various finishes. There are metalic blues and gunmetal metalic blue automotive finishes that can then be dampened down with black or black tinted clear over them that will result in a finish similar to fresh wire brushed steel. If you do not want a gloss finish you can get clear with flattener OR you can dust clear on from a distance and get a dry flat finish. Do this over a good smooth clear. Some of the best looking finishes are the prepared antiquing finishes. These sould be applied over a good primed and sealed basecoat of a similar color as these are often rubbed on and do not provide a lot of protection. Antique bronzes with highlights are common but there are also marble and stone finishes. Go to a garden shop and look at the finishes put on plastic fountains. They look like everything from concrete to aged stone or marble. |
| - guru - Wednesday, 06/14/06 08:19:55 EDT |
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I have a set of large 4 foot sheet metal stars on the sides of my house. One of the stars blew off with a gust of wind (missed my car by a few inches), so I screwed down the points back in the clapboard siding. Now, (a year later) I have two really bad rust streaks running down the side of my house where the points meet the wood. These streaks almost touch the ground. My house looks ugly and is in need of a paint job. How can i get rid of the rust marks without repainting? And, how can I prevent further rust stains? I figure if I weld prop rods at the points, it will keep the rusty star(s) from making direct contact with the siding. I can send pics if you want. BTW, Glen, I live in Southeastern PA too. What county are you in? I'm in Bucks. |
| - Nippulini - Wednesday, 06/14/06 08:20:23 EDT |
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TGN; You'll find some stuff at the grocery store in the laundry products called "Iron Out" rust stain remover. Mix up a solution of that per the directions and go after the stain with it on a rag. Note that it is a sulfite, and you WILL want to stay upwind of it. If you are asthmatic, you might want to try something else, as it will likely cause a reaction. |
| 3dogs - Wednesday, 06/14/06 09:26:57 EDT |
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TGN, The rust is probably caused by something other than contact. You may have bimetalic corrosion going on. If the stars are aluminium or plated and you used plain screws or thinly galvanized screws, OR brass screws, it may be the screws rusting spead up by the other metal or if brass screws they are causing the steel star to rust. . . The screws would need to be heavy galvanized or stainless steel. Lowes sells SS screws in small lots for less than a dolar. OR you have a plated piece and broke the plating where you made holes. However, I suspect that the long rust stains are due to bimetailic corrosion (which as noted could be the plating). How are the stars attached otherwise? Should have rusted there unless they are attached under the eves where it is drier. Cure the problem, then try 3dogs stain removal. If you need to get the points off the roof use plastic pins as stand offs. |
| - guru - Wednesday, 06/14/06 10:24:57 EDT |
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TGN "Bar Keeper's Friend," a souring product contains Oxalic acid which is pretty good at removing rust stains. "CLR" contains Gluronic acid and works quite well also. it is a liquid, not a powder. Plastic pins to mout them would help. |
| - John Odom - Wednesday, 06/14/06 14:34:05 EDT |
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TGN-- sounds like the key question here is, howcum they weren't emitting rust stains before you stuck them back onto the house? Could the screws you used be the culprits? Would stainless screws solve the problem? Getting rid of the rust stains is going to be a toughie. Easy does it. |
| Miles Undercut - Wednesday, 06/14/06 19:06:05 EDT |
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TGN, You need to check out Peltor's new earplugs. They are called "Skull screws" are metalic colored and look like phillips headed screws coming out of the ears when inserted.Got some samples today and they are even comfortable! Too cool for metal guys such as we smiths. |
| ptree - Wednesday, 06/14/06 19:32:19 EDT |
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ELLEN had her surgery today and we have not heard the results as yet. She is having a kidney removed due to the finding of a hickey in it. She could use some Knee mail. Chuck |
| sandpile - Wednesday, 06/14/06 20:23:46 EDT |
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Hi I recently received a gift from a friend which they claim is an 18th century locksmith's tool. But it is the shape of a capital 'L', which confused me. Do you have any idea what this is used for, or how? Any information would be greatly appreciated. Thanks |
| Ellie - Wednesday, 06/14/06 20:51:37 EDT |
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I just purchased a 158# Columbian anvil and tried it out today.....WHAT A DIFFERENCE over my 100# Vulcan, using it is right up there with eating and sex (you can see my priorities). Can anyone tell me how they were made? Is there a plate welded to the top (there's a ridge line but it could be a parting line from the mold), my Vulcan didn't have any ring but this one does so I'm stumped. Running a file over the base and over the edge of the top displays a major difference in hardness, but is this just heat treating? Also, ptree, where can I find these Peltor earplugs? |
| Thumper - Wednesday, 06/14/06 20:55:58 EDT |
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Ellie, it could be a "square", for marking 90% angles. Hard to tell without a pic. |
| Thumper - Wednesday, 06/14/06 21:03:10 EDT |
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Thanks Thumper. Is it possible to put pics on here? |
| Ellie - Wednesday, 06/14/06 21:13:21 EDT |
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Thumper, I know Hagemeyer has them as I got my samples from them. I believe they sell for about $27.00 for a box of 120 pairs in individual wrap. Called "Skull Screws" by Peltor. Call mike at 502-961-5930 and tell him you saw it on Anvilfire. |
| ptree - Wednesday, 06/14/06 21:26:25 EDT |
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Old tool:Ellie, That would be (or could be) a lock pick. Old locks were quite a bit bigger and different than modern locks. That L shaped tool would still be used today for a variety of old style locks that take "bit" keys or what people erroneously call "skeleton" keys. Sizes would vary from an an offset of 3/8" to as much as 1" to fit big locks like those on jail cells. The simplest of old lock picks were L shaped pieces of metal or heavy wire. Then there were "J" shapes with a point and zig zags. Others were actual old keys with most of the bit ground away. For this kind of lock picking I use a piece of heavy iron wire (1/16 or 1/8 inch diameter) and a pair of plires for bending it to shape as needed and a small hammer for tightening up bends. I suspect that because these tools were most often made on the fly like this that they are pretty rare OR hard to identify. |
| - guru - Wednesday, 06/14/06 22:15:33 EDT |
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Just include the html (or use cut and paste) and we can go to the pic site. |
| Thumper - Wednesday, 06/14/06 22:24:03 EDT |
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hey guru i just bought a cast iron anvil and was just wondering how good it was for a newbie and how long would it last under pressure and what do you recommend and where could i find it lol |
| kong - Wednesday, 06/14/06 22:36:44 EDT |
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That's excellent. Thanks for your help! |
| Ellie - Wednesday, 06/14/06 22:39:49 EDT |
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I have a 20 yR OLD PERCHERON AND he is growing these weird things out of his fetlocks, what are they, they are quite long and resemble little fingers they are like a chestnut? There are 3 on eack leg where the ankle is behind the ankle. |
| lorianne - Wednesday, 06/14/06 22:59:41 EDT |
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Lorianne. It's called an ergot, and ergots are similar to the chestnuts higher on on the leg. They can be trimmed by a knowledgeable farrier or vet, but they're usually not bothersome. It is thought that they are vestiges of a time when the horse had five toes. Some horses don't have a growthy ergot, just a bald place behind and below the fetlock. |
| Frank Turley - Wednesday, 06/14/06 23:34:59 EDT |
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The stars were rusty to begin with, so the rain runoff carries the rust and deposits it at the bottom points, which are screwed in with drywall screws I think. I wonder if I can use a rust remover like that in a pressure washer (something I don't have). Ergots also grow on rye flowers and are a source for LSD. |
| - Nippulini - Wednesday, 06/14/06 23:53:51 EDT |
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I was watching a program about metalurgy on the History Channel. Limestone is used as a flux to trap impurities and prevent oxidation. ie.-a crucible is filled with iron and crushed limestone is then placed on top. During the melting process the limestone and slag will form a bloom and foam up. The crucible is poured out, with the bloom seperating from the molten iron. The bloom is thrown aside and the glob of iron forged into a billet. Ok, here is what I was thinking. When forge welding, when the metal gets to the welding stage, why couldn't limestone powder be sprinked on the steel. Reheated until the limestone powder melts and combines with the slag. Then just brush it off and weld. I thought this might be food for thought. |
| Mike T. - Thursday, 06/15/06 01:45:07 EDT |
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Nip: Phosphoric acid solutions allso remove rust, like Naval Jelly, Phoz, or Ospho. You can get oxalic acid cristals in the paint department, might be called wood bleach, mix it with water for aplication. Lime Away, CLR, Snow Bowl or other toilet cleaners, or diluted muritic acid will remove rust, but be carefull that they don't destroy Your house in the process. Rinse really well afterwards regardless of what chemicals You use. |
| Dave Boyer - Thursday, 06/15/06 01:52:20 EDT |
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Frank, I've only seen ergots grow one to a leg, Lorianne said there are 3 "fingerlings" on each leg. Also, she failed to mention if these were soft tissue or hard and crusty like the chestnut, in any case you're absolutely correct in having her check with a vet or farrier, but, have you ever seen ergots in multiples as she described? |
| Thumper - Thursday, 06/15/06 02:58:04 EDT |
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Thumper: The Columbian anvil was made by the Columbian Hardware Company of Cleveland, OH, probably late 1800s to 1920s. Would be one piece cast steel, heat treated. For a couple years in the 1920s Columbian drop U.S. production and imported from Sweden. Those should marked with the Columbian logo and have SWEDEN on them. Kong: If someone gave you a couple of bucks a pound to haul off that cast iron anvil you may have come out OK on it. It will not hold up to heavy use with the top dinging and the sides probably breaking off in chunks. I don't understand the last third of your question. |
| Ken Scharabok - Thursday, 06/15/06 06:22:20 EDT |
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Dave and Nip, I live in Southern Chester County near Delaware and Maryland. I've checked out the PABA site, and hopefully the next time there is an event I will try and make it! Thanks for all the help thus far. Glen |
| Glen - Thursday, 06/15/06 07:16:13 EDT |
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Plese let me know where I can find ready plan gas burner to smoking and cooking gril. Thank You |
| Anssi - Thursday, 06/15/06 07:27:21 EDT |
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Assi, not a clue. As blacksmiths we build burners that would liquify your grill. Try googling "grilling" |
| - guru - Thursday, 06/15/06 07:53:23 EDT |
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Fluxes: Mike, This is a different type of fluxing. Iron ores generally have lots of other mineral in the ore that creates slag. What the limestone is used for is 1) Combine with the impurities released by the smelting process 2) make a more fluid slag so that it can be tapped off. In modern steelmaking much more agressive fluxes are used like flourite powder which blacksmiths also use for nickle alloys and stainless steels. Borax is the primary ingrediant in arc welding rod cover fluxes. It is not used in smelting or steelmkaing because the temperature is consistantly above the boiling point of the the borax. Silicon based minerals are also used in steel making to create an artificial slag along with the flourite and other active ingediant fluxes. The limestone is not an active flux as are other minerals which disolve iron oxide. In the forge you need a fast acting relatively agressive flux. That is what borax is used for. Note that many smiths do not use flux at all and the Japanese sword smith uses clay and rice grass ash to protect the steel (not flux it) while heating and welding. Other smiths have used silica sand as a protectant and flux but this is not a chemicaly active flux. Red clay has been used for the same in parts of the country. |
| - guru - Thursday, 06/15/06 08:48:23 EDT |
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Ergots. No, I haven't seen them grow in threes. However, judging from the dogs I have owned and seen, there is quite a bit of variation on the "extra claws" that grow on their legs. I thought it might be a mutant form. |
| Frank Turley - Thursday, 06/15/06 09:35:34 EDT |
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One other aspect in the use of limestone as a smelting ore is for it's Ca to take the place of some of the Fe in the slag---if your slag is richer in iron than your ore you don't get much output from that run... As mentioned this is not something we're worried about in forge welding. Thomas |
| Thomas P - Thursday, 06/15/06 09:51:16 EDT |
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My mother is all upset about a lawsuit she heard of where someone contracted Parkinsons and is suing the manufacturer of the welding rods he used (that supposedly gave him the disease, I think ALS was mentioned as well). I tried to explain to her that this guy is going to have to prove that he used the rods in accordance to the directions of use and precautions printed on the package. She worries (that's what mom's are for) because she bought me my first arc welder for my 31st Birthday last year (not that anyone cares, I turn 32 tommorow). Does anyone know about this lawsuit? I'm keeping my moms sanity by telling her I have more than adaquate ventilation and use all safety precautio |