WELCOME to the anvilfire Guru's Den - V. 3.3

THIS is a forum for questions and answers about blacksmithing and general metalworking. Ask the Guru any reasonable question and he or one of his helpers will answer your question, find someone that can, OR research the question for you. This is an archive of posts from June 1 - 7, 2007 on the Guru's Den

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I need to relace a missing handle on a vise and this poses a welding question. I've found and purchased some mild steel balls (from "Pacific Steel", in various sizes, if anyones looking) and intend to weld them onto the handle ends instead of upsetting and shaping. For a secure weld I figure to grind down the end of the bar to a blunt point, but I'm not sure how to prep the balls. Will overlapping the welds to get back to the bar thickness be strong enough contact on the ball surface?    Thumper - Thursday, 05/31/07 23:20:28 EDT Thumper: This is a vise handle, not a pry bar. Even a decent tack weld would do...if you aren't in the habit of slamming the handle against the screw head. Which you shouldn't be, as you'll quickly learn the very first time you do it with the web of your thumb in between the handle knob and the screw head. In fact, I like to put a hose washer on each end of a handle before I weld or upset the last end, so thereis a cushion against slamming. On handles that are already installed, I use a couple layers of heat-shrink tubing. Saves both the hand and the hole in the screw.    vicopper - Friday, 06/01/07 00:56:14 EDT Guru, I'm building a trough charcoal forge with side tuyeer. Should I use many drilled holes in a pipe, or just the large end hole? I might even use a pipe on each side. Also, any advice on box bellows VS "accordion style"? Power blowers are great, but I want to get back to basics. - John    john f - Friday, 06/01/07 02:17:18 EDT Thumper: On the vise handle balls I would drill a hole through the balls for the rod, then plug weld them on at the ends. On one heavy-duty bench vise I have they drilled, but counter-drilled from side to upset a small diameter rod when went through both the ball and handle rod. John F: This site uses a wash-tub, but basic concept is the same: http://64.176.180.203/washtubforge.htm With permision of Tim Lively (www.livelyknives.com).    Ken Scharabok (Poor Boy) - Friday, 06/01/07 07:32:53 EDT Hey gang, just got a job at a pioneer village as the blacksmith (Blackberry Farm -http://www.foxvalleyparkdistrict.org/facilities/bbf/bbf-intro.html)and I'm looking for info on early 1800s settlers blacksmithing and/or knife designs from then. I know there are books, but my pocketbook is a bit thin at the moment, so I can't afford any. I admire this managements dedication to wanting to do things as period as possible, so I want to bring as much authenticity as possible to my work there. Thanks in advance!    SteelGeek - Friday, 06/01/07 08:16:39 EDT Vise Handles: I have made a few of these and never been really happy with them. I've welded on nuts and reshaped them, forged the ends, use weld build up. . . The first one is easy, the second one has the screw hanging from it . . But that is not as big a problem as you might think. I've fitted replacement bails to 30 gallon copper kettles. The first end is easy, the second must be heated in the forge and manipulated with a 30" diameter pot hanging off the end. On copper kettles the end loops often face outward away from each other so it is a real trick to get the second in. The bails on this size are 3/4" round bar. . . Actually vise handles ends take quite a bit of hard force from normal use. It is very common for them to line up dead vertical and the weight of the handle drop full force on the end. Rubber washers Do help. Steve Kayne gave me some electrical grommets for the purpose years ago and they work very well EXCEPT on the vise I do welding and blacksmithing on they caught fire so I removed them. Save the balls. Vise Handle Ends: Wrap a steel collar from a piece of stock about 5/16" thick and 3/4" wide around the handle (for a 3/4" handle). You may need to forge these pieces to the proper proportions. Leave about 1/4" of the end of the bar sticking out. Weld the collar all around on both edges and the joint. Then grind or forge the ball to shape. If your collar is too thin you can use some weld buildup at the center. If you slightly crown the ends of the bar before you start and forge the collar with an arced surface there will not be a lot of shaping or dressing to do afterwards. If you forge an arc on the collars be sure to keep them narrow enough to have a good 1/4" for the weld bead. Of course you could always upset and forge the first end fairly easily. However, the method above makes nice ends and doing them the same will produce uniform results. Be SURE to dress the edges of the hole in the screw before installing a new handle. These edges get upset and create a very sharp wire edge that is dangerous.    - guru - Friday, 06/01/07 08:42:47 EDT SteelGeek, Remembering that buying a good book is like buying a good tool, I would recommend "Hooks Rings and other Things" by Frank Barnes. It is pricey at present; I looked it up on campusi.com which gives price comparisons. It's worth the money. Barnes has made many line drawings of all manner of iron and steel items from your period and in most instances, he has given at least one dimension for reference.    Frank Turley - Friday, 06/01/07 09:27:20 EDT Matt, High carbon steel and 4140 tongs are used for the large, industrial type. NO forge welds on the reins. The reins are drawn.    Frank Turley - Friday, 06/01/07 09:51:17 EDT Vice handles- weld the balls to the shaft and don't worry about it unless the handle is spring steel. I used ball bearings on a jack handle but annealed the bearings and ends; welded 'em and dressed off- looks good & works fine    - Ron Childers - Friday, 06/01/07 10:11:14 EDT I tend to stick to light tongs they have always worked fine for me? I have even used ferriers tongs for some of my projects. thanks for the info.    - dwelly forge - Friday, 06/01/07 10:12:32 EDT I am thinking about doing iforge project 101. One question, It seems like it would make sense to draw and point the three individual rods before welding them. But is there any advantage to welding them first and then pointing them. Just seems like extra work to draw and point after they are welded. Any other tips on this project would be helpful as I would like to make it for my wife for our anniversary, which is Sunday.    Sean in China - Friday, 06/01/07 10:27:04 EDT Frank, Thanks. I understand about the reins; that's how I made the pair I'm trying to fix. When I mentioned welding, I just meant that on this particular set, where the joint between the jaws and the reins has cracked, it might be worth cutting off the jaws, grinding out the cracks, and arc welding the jaws back on.    Matt B - Friday, 06/01/07 10:27:28 EDT Guru, Yeah, I hadn't seen the Machinery's Handbook tong dimensions table until after I forged this first pair. The next pair I do, I'll try to stick close to those dimensions.    Matt B - Friday, 06/01/07 10:43:25 EDT I have several books on colonial *American* ironwork, the Sorber Collection for one; but unfortunately many of them deal with the 1600's and 1700's. I would suggest searching on the Mountain man websites as they do the 1820's-1840's. Research books should really be bought by the organization and not by yourself, when we all stop laughing, you might look into ILL of them if you are in the USA and have access to a public library. If you are referring to any of the other 60 odd countries that had colonial periods around then please tell and we will dig into them as well. I work with a number of people from Chile and am learning a lot of interesting history about Chile now; unfortunately none of them are smiths... Thomas    Thomas P - Friday, 06/01/07 10:58:28 EDT Vise Handles: Love the rubber grommet idea, no, I've never caught the web of my hand, but I do have the habit of releasing the handle on the last turn when verticle (SLAM). Guru, I like your method but since I already made the 60mi round trip to P.S. for supplies, discovered & picked up the balls, I think I'll use them instead. For the record, I love the brainstorming on this sight, as a horseman I've found that if you ask 5 horse-people one question, you get about 12 different useable and good answers, this place makes me feel right at home!    Thumper - Friday, 06/01/07 11:14:05 EDT References: SteelGeek, As Frank noted books are TOOLS and often necessary tools. They are a significant part of your education as a blacksmith and a very inexpensive part of it compared to shop time. The classic "Early American Wrought Iron" by Sonn is now in reprint and available from BlacksmithsDepot. "Antique Iron" by Schiffer is another good book and then there is Plummer's Colonial Wrought Iron (both available from Artisan Ideas). Some of my favorites are the box sets of Eric Sloane's works on Americana. Also available in reprint. IF your employer is concerned about historical accuracy they should have all the books above plus more (for both their education AND yours). Note that many blacksmithing organizations maintain lending libraries. $500 will buy you good historical reference library and $1000 would fill a long book shelf with most of the books on our review page plus the ones listed above. These would equate to the all the text books in a college art history major's school career at about 1/2 to 1/4 the cost of text books. I have been collecting blacksmithing books for some 40 years and the amazing thing is that almost all are in print today. With very few exceptions you could go out and buy most of what is in my blacksmithing collection in one day. When I started there was only ONE book available on blacksmithing methods (Bealer) and a few hard to find references from CoSIRA but almost nobody in the U.S. knew who they were or imported their books. Then the late Dona Meilach wrote Decorative and Sculptural Ironwork and Jack Andrews wrote Edge of the Anvil. Richardson's Practical Blacksmithing in reprint from Weathervane books followed. Bladesmithing books also came on the market and since the 1990's and the Internet there has been a flood of new and reprint books. This is not true on many other fields. Locksmithing is very short on good definitive books on old locks, their works and methods of making them. I have more invested in a short stack of locksmithing books (many quite rare) than in most of my blacksmithing library. In the area of making musical instruments there are MANY books on some instruments and none or only one very rare book on many others. Modern blacksmiths are very lucky to have the vast quantity of books that are available at reasonable prices. You should take advantage of it. Books go in and out of print and this just happens to be a time when there are more in print than at any other time.    - guru - Friday, 06/01/07 11:17:38 EDT Hi, I am looking for a bronze casting company that would be able to make around 500/year 2" x2" stars for a five year term contract. Main issues are price and quality. Please only serious supplpiers respond- I will send pictures by email to responders. This is part of a large sign contract I am doing for a very famous building (more details will be suppplied)- once we develop a rapport(that's why I am using my personal email here) Thanks All Joy    joy - Friday, 06/01/07 11:38:32 EDT iForge 101 and Blacksmiths Twists: Sean, much of the material is needed to fill in the spaces between the bars. If you are forge welding there will be a loss from scale and the points would burn off. The end where the pieces are joined becomes material to draw out to a point. On this particular project you may want to point or draw out with a ball the ends that will become the legs. Where the dimension says 2" for the legs I would use 4" (5" if already pointed). The leg ends on this can be points, ball ends, fishtail scrolls. . . There are a ton of things you can do with candlesticks once you get started.    - guru - Friday, 06/01/07 11:43:32 EDT Thanks for the info! I should have mentioned they are trying to recreate the pioneer settlement that existed in the Aurora, IL, area in the early 1800s. I give management credit for trying to the best they can on a shoestring budget, so I figured the least I could do is try to match that attitude : )    SteelGeek - Friday, 06/01/07 12:47:15 EDT I think my first two blacksmithing books were Dona Meilach's Decorative and Sculptural Ironwork and Weygers "The Modern Blacksmith". I did luck onto a copy of Wrought Iron and Its Decorative Use---the 1929 issue (recently republished by Dover at a *MUCH* lower cost than the hardback original) and Iron and Brass Implements of the English Home---originally published in 1927; but I think my copy is the 1960 reprint...I have a copy of the 1913? Blacksmithing book put out by Popular Mechanics The trick is to visit the big book remainder stores reqularly and purchase anything on the topic when it's cheap; wait 10 years and folks are drooling over your library---until the reprints come out. Back before the internet cruising used bookstores, esp in small towns could be a great way to find books, though time consuming---it's one way my wife and I have fun on vacations...Now even small towns in AR can be on top of "going" rates for books and you are reduced to more esoteric sources. Think about it; if you saved 1 dollar a week you could buy a pretty nice book for yourself every Christmas and over time you would have a great reference collection. Currently the most expensive book I have ever bought was "The Knight and the Blast Furnace" Alan Williams and it's new and in print! Thomas    Thomas P - Friday, 06/01/07 14:22:31 EDT Early 1800's: The trick with that era is change was happening very fast. The steam era had just begun to effect rural areas, The improvements in mills described in Oliver Evans' 1795 "The Young Mill-Wright & Miller's Guide." was being used to update grist mill machinery world wide. Our 1806 Grist mill was built using 1700's milling technology and was refitted with all new equipment a generation later. In 1794 Eli Whitney patented his cotton gin and in 1807 congress refused to renew the patent because so many infringing businesses were based on it. Whitney concluded that 'an invention can be so valuable as to be worthless to the inventor.' Cyrus McCormick of Virginia invented the mechanical reaper in 1831. By 1847 he began the mass manufacture of his reaper in a Chicago factory. This was the era when inventors such as James Nasmyth were changing the world day by day. A look at Nasmyth's list of inventions and contrivances is amazing. Besides the steam hammer he invented the lathe reversing mechanism and the shaper. His theories of self actuating machinery advanced the art of machine tool building for all inventors. What is most significant thing in this era is CHANGE. Few places stayed the same or used the same tools of machines for long because something new and more efficient was becoming available every day.    - guru - Friday, 06/01/07 14:36:38 EDT joy: Look in the yellow pages of a large city under foundry or foundries. You can likely find at least one which works with non-ferrous metals. You will have to provide the molds to them in the type they want, such as for pouring multiple stars at one time. Mold making itself can be pricy. SteelGeed: You may be surprised what your local library can obtain for you on an inter-library loan basis. Usually just for a small handling charge.    Ken Scharabok (Poor Boy) - Friday, 06/01/07 14:53:33 EDT Books and the Internet: The Internet has been a double edged sword for book collectors. You can find and collect books from across the entire world sitting at your desk. But as Thomas noted the most isolated of book sellers now has access to global prices and what is really rare and what is not. Your chances of finding a real jewel in some out of the way place has become very low. Demand is up because of the easy access and thus prices are up. One locksmithing book I paid $60 for several years ago is now selling for nearly 10 times that. Without the Internet the price would probably have been less and stable for decades. The other thing is the availability of reprints. When old editions are going for very high prices then it is a clue that a reprint would sell well. Thus there is a whole industry bringing back books that would never have been reprinted otherwise. And this is one of those frightening aspects of paying high prices for old books. A significant part of that price is due to its not being available. Once in reprint the value of your old edition MAY plummet. If it is a first edition it may retain some collector's value but if not then it may become worth less than a reprint. MANY books are initially printed in the low thousands or only 1,000. If the book is not successful enough OR something happens to the author then the initial printing may be the last. What makes it difficult for the reprint industry is that modern copyrights last a very long time. In fact, I am sure that many reprints are currently a gamble based on the publisher not having clear rights to the book but not being able to find a copyright holder. But many books are printed ONCE and that is it. If you do not buy a copy today you may not be able to do so in a few years. Then there is the making of texts available on-line. I have mixed feelings about this. In many cases this devalues a reprint to the point where it will not be made. Then there are odd things like The Countryside Agency making the CoSIRA books available on-line while they were still selling print copies to book sellers. The Internet and computers which were supposed to create the "paperless office" as well as make book publishing obsolete has in fact done the opposite (like video tapes and movies) and brought a new and larger audience to many books. Remember in the early 1980's when the movie industry screamed that the VHS tape player was going to put them out of business and another high budget movie wold never be made? Videotape revolutionized the industry and more big budget movies are being made than ever. Lets hope the Internet does the same for books.    - guru - Friday, 06/01/07 15:34:09 EDT On Books: Guru, you are very correct in your assessment on books and the internet. I have put together quite a nice starter library by buying books on Blacksmithing on the internet. However, some of the best tutorials I have, IMHO, are gleaned from different internet sources. The CoSIRA books are a good example, I printed the whole thing out. Good reference for a beginner like myself. Values are harder to predict in this whole internet age. For example, a few years ago I purchased "The Care and Training of the Tennessee Walking Horse" by Joe Webb, when I became interested in horses. My wife was appalled when I told her it cost $34.00 on eBay. However, a search for the same book now will find the same book at around 100-140 dollars. Some things go up, some go down. Go figure.    keykeeper - Friday, 06/01/07 15:49:14 EDT The cost of printing is also a consideration. Richard Postman has to sell Anvils in America for $60 per copy. Yes, the publisher of The Backyard Blacksmith by Lorelei Sims suggested retail is $24.99 and wholesales for about 60% of that. Some internet sellers are offering them for $16-18 copy. Large format book with lots of color photographs. Primary difference? AIA is printed in the U.S. while TBB is printed in China (which means sales price also includes transportation costs from China to the U.S.). Instant book publishers are readily available. If you can provide your book to them on-line or via a disk they can very quickly put out a very nice copy for not much per copy cost, even in small print runs, say 100-300 copies.    Ken Scharabok (Poor Boy) - Friday, 06/01/07 16:43:08 EDT Of course one of the joys of a library is seeing what books are *near* the one you are interested in and sometimes finding something you never heard of. This is balanced by being able to do subject matter searches on the internet book sellers though sometimes the names may seem quite odd---"The Work of Angels" is a book on early medieval Irish metalworking. Then their are the books you hear about but can never find a copy for sale...I am greatly tempted to yield to the temptation to make a copy of a book I have been hunting for for over 5 years; but can ILL easily. Or the one that got away---I once ran into a cite for a german book about iron age smith graves in the alps and did not write it down and have not been able to find it again! Makes you want to go out and pound on hot iron! Thomas bibliophile smith    Thomas P - Friday, 06/01/07 17:11:25 EDT BOOKS: A big problem for the buyer is book quality. I have several nice hard back books that were glue bound. This is OK if good glue is used. However, several have fallen apart due to using cheap rubber cement instead of high quality binders glue. This includes a large "coffee table" book on China published by Time Life which fell apart completely in 5 years and a copy of The Blacksmith and His Art by J.E Hawley published in 1976. It was falling apart in just a few years and ALL the pages are a loose collection now. The book was printed by Publisher Press in Arizona, USA. I have paper bound catalogs much older that are in fine condition. Properly sewn hard bound books last as long as the paper they are printed on. I have numerous books published in the mid 1800's that are in nearly perfect condition. Soft bound books are often just as good of paper but their life is often dictated by the glue used. I have a small collection of books and printed manuscripts waiting for when I have time to bind them. I use a personal method of gluing on threads that seems to work fairly well. But it is not something I should have to do to good books purchased in my lifetime. The binding is easy, the making of good covers is hard. . . BOOKS: The one that got away. . . When I was researching musical instruments and buying a few books on the subject I came across an old illustrated book of musical instruments published in the early 1900's. It had the bookplate of a large movie studio (MGM I think) and the name of one of the great directors or producers in it. $99. It was not much money at the time for the particular book but a LOT for me at the time. I passed on it. Now the same book without the nifty bookplate sells for five times that. BOOKS: Really Rare ones like Thomas is talking about are not listed ANYWHERE. If a book is copyrighted in the U.S. there should be one or more copies in the Library of Congress (LOC) and they have a very good computerized catalog system and if not it is at least LISTED. But many foreign books do not have U.S. copyrights and often they only exist in a couple libraries in the world. When I was researching musical instruments I found ONE University library that had more books on musical instruments than the LOC, Oxford University and the Sorbonne combined. They have dozens of books that are not found anywhere else in the world other than in private collections. It took two years of continuous research to figure this out. There may be such a treasure trove of metalworking books but I doubt it is in a library.    - guru - Friday, 06/01/07 17:50:16 EDT BOOKS: On a Shelf in Association with Similar THIS is a huge failing of electronic libraries and card catalogs. AND the US Patent Office has fallen to this level as well. It used to be that patents were in folders of other similar patents. When looking for prior art it would almost always be within a foot of any one patent on the subject. Once you found one, you had them all. Today you rely on how well the librarian indexed the record and what key words they used. Often the title is the only thing that is used for key words because the person putting in the data does not take time to actually OPEN the book and look at the index. This makes keyword searches impossible or nearly worthless. This applies to computer catalogs of books, movies, recordings and patents. The problem is that in the rush to get collections into computer catalogs the cost is way underestimated or there is no budget at all. Small libraries are often cataloged by volunteers or student workers who are not instructed in OR given time to make a good key word list for each book. In the case of books like "The Work of Angels" that Thomas mentioned you may never find it via a computer index under metalwork. .    - guru - Friday, 06/01/07 18:11:40 EDT hellos! i have a few questions. the first is do you know of any blacksmiths is NH or a place i could look?. because i have been looking and came up with nothing, that or i'm blind! also, what would be a good anvil for a beginer? i haven't done a whole lot of blacksmithing, i have only flattened the heads of RR spikes using a 3 pound hammer on an old RR track plate. should i just secure that to a log? or get something better? thanks for your time!    Jake - Friday, 06/01/07 18:14:39 EDT I am looking for more or less a summer job helping or apprenticing in a swordsmith or bladesmith shop. I live in the state of UTAH and I am just a teenager. I have run a blacksmith shop of my own in the past. Despite my age I am very smart when it comes to the construction of swords. I have a fair amount of experience in the feild, but am no expert. If you know of any leads or oportunities to get me on the right track it would be greatly appresiated. I am not looking for any major high paying job; I Just want to learn and work in a smithy. Thanks for the Help!!    Troy - Friday, 06/01/07 18:50:32 EDT hello all. after restoring a third forge, this one a champion i've discovered parts are not readily available. does anyone know where machine (blue) prints can be found? am going to start making rotating fans. always seems to be broken or missing. any help would be apprecianted. also, any info on the broze gear in the champion 400 blowers? would be nice not to have to start making them. thank you in advance, kirt    kirt - Friday, 06/01/07 19:04:54 EDT Try Lindsay publications, kirt. they have centerfugal fan plans there, along with 5 books on blacksmithing    Jake - Friday, 06/01/07 19:10:42 EDT Kirt Centaur Forge sells The Champion Blower & Forge co January 1,1909 catalogue reprint for 6.50. www.centaurforge.com    - Burnt Forge - Friday, 06/01/07 19:31:06 EDT Kirt, There are no such drawings that I know of. In the era when these things were made there were assembly drawings with dimensions and then each craftsman in a factory made his own sketches to make parts from. When there were drawings the originals were often used on the plant floor. Pattern makers often did their layouts on a piece of wood OR the actual pattern blank. The worm gears and bearings on these were custom made by the factory.    - guru - Friday, 06/01/07 19:38:22 EDT Smiths in NH: Jake I know there are a bunch up there but no organization that I know of. When looking for smiths start in the yellow pages. Most professional smiths will be listed under "Ironworks" and some under "fencing". Start in the major cities and wrok down. Some ironworks are strictly "hack and tack" fabricators but some do forge work. Politely ask if they do forge work then ask if you may speak to their blacksmith. While horseshoers or farriers are generally not the kind of smith you are looking for they will know smiths. A FEW do forge work (hot shoeing) and may be able to help you one your search. If you have unlimited long distance (as many folks do these days) a couple days on the phone should turn up quite a few results.    - guru - Friday, 06/01/07 20:52:10 EDT Troy, I can only assume you are having a giraffe there mate.. your in your teens and youve run a blacksmiths shop?????? PMSL im 32, and have an IQ that would scare you,I run (and own) a $1m+ business, in the forging industry, and can only just forge weld damascus, i have bought and sold a few indutrial forging comapanies. forge a sword... maybee in 5 years.... thats the truth of it. despite being minted, and a confident person I still find it difficult to hire & fire peops (at the age of 32), your doing well son. I would like to see some examples of your work, you can post some pictures over at forgemagic.com when I hire labour honesty is the main trait im looking for, you can go along way with this and hard work, but dont B.S, (if you are really trolling well done , youve got a response! :)    - John N - Friday, 06/01/07 20:55:43 EDT God in infinite wisdom gave man the Xerox machine to copy books with. Just don't crack the bindings, please, because then the idiots in the library you borrowed the book from will trash it, as the University of New Mexico did with a lovely copy of Sir William Flinders Petrie's Tools and Weapons, selling at the time on the Net for $300. (Nope, I am not the one who cracked it. The book was printed in WW I era, cheap paper, crumby binding.) But anyway, if you can't afford it, get the library to get it for you and photocopy it. Just don't tangle with Kinkos clerks or ask them to do this boring task, because they do not understand copyright and think everything is sacred. It ain't.    Miles Undercut - Friday, 06/01/07 21:02:08 EDT miles , good rant, but youve lost me there......continue over in hammer in.............. (feel free to delete this post mr d.)    - John N - Friday, 06/01/07 21:06:54 EDT RR-Rail Anvils: Railroad rail anvils are miserable things. The is because they put no mass under the hammer blow and the narrow web makes them very springy. The radiused surface is something only Chinese smiths appreciate. To put MASS under the hammer blow you turn the rail on end. This puts 50% of the rail under the blow and takes the spring out of the connection between it and the web and flange which then become good mass with a high efficiency. YES, this make the working surface small. However, this small spot just a few times larger than the face of the hammer is just as big as the "sweet spot" that most smiths find on their anvils and use for 90% of their work. As long as this area is larger than what you are hammering on then it is more than you need. So up to about 3" bar stock the end of the rail is all you need. Above are three ways to mount a piece of rail. IF you have a choice and can get a piece cut the length you need then a 28" long (or a little over knuckle height) piece of rail will weigh about 100 pounds which is a nice anvil weight, ESPECIALLY if most of it is under the hammer blow. In this case the 90 to 120 pounds of rail will react to your blows like a 200 to 300 pound anvil. Pretty NICE eh? The second method (middle) shows a typical short section of rail mounted on a tree stump using RR-spikes Rail and spikes. . cooool. While this short length of 10" to a foot will only weigh about 30 to 40 pounds it will react like an anvil about twice that weight. Grind the web into a fuller (radiused) shape. IF your RR-rail anvil has a pointed horn on it then carve a hole in the stump and bed it into body putty or epoxy like a stake anvil. The last (right) setup is based on a drawing I made for an iForge demo on tools made from RR-rail way back in 2000. . . Here I show a stand made from laminated structural lumber. Much less could be used. It also shows a bolster plate for holding hary tools from iForge demo #164 on square holes. While these are not great anvils the bladesmithing community has taken up the banner of using long stock on end to make bladesmithing anvils. They are using heavy round stock from 4" to 6" in diameter. Their target and working space is only a little larger and this is the rage in bladesmithing. Rail has that nice flange to bolt to. If you are working in a shop with a dirt floor or outdoors you can set a post in the ground 2 or 3 feet then mount your rail on one side and a leg vise on the other. If you have access to a welder OR someone that will do a little cuitting and welding for you then the little double horned RR-rail anvil could be made. The SAME features could be put on a long piece as well and make a very good anvil. 2nd Drawing to follow.    - guru - Friday, 06/01/07 21:22:34 EDT for the newbees out there, if you just want to have a go at woopin on some hot metal, and are anviless you can use a big sledge hammer head as the anvil (ironic I know) tat as an anvil but works, in some countries this would be a luxery!...dont over analyse it all and have a go .... find something solid to rest it on and your away :)    - John N - Friday, 06/01/07 21:35:21 EDT Note John N's comment above. In many parts of Asia swords and knives are forged on sledge hammer head anvils for EXPORT to the Europe and the US. . . IF you MUST make an anvil from RR-rail and I have seen MANY with a lot more work in them than the above, THIS is the best way to make one. You start with a 3 foot long (36" or .91m) piece of RR-rail. The weight will vary with the type of rail but the one dimension given will give you an anvil short enough for most people and it can be raised with a wooden pad attached to the rest of the stand which helps balance the anvil. So you start with 3 feet and cut off a cubit (or a foot depending on the starting length). This shorter piece is then flame cut and ground to make a double ended anvil top. Use the web side for the face (upside down). The reason is that much old used RR-rail has flaws (shears and cold shuts) in the working surface. Put that side down to weld to the base. Note that the top end of the flange may be cut down or rounded or decorative as you may want. It is shown as simple as possible. Drill four mounting holes in the rail and two or more in the base plate. The base plate is not necessary but it will help distribute the force and make the whole more stable. It should be about 1/2" (13mm) thick. Fit and weld the pieces together. Remember that RR-rail is often 75 point carbon steel and needs to be preheated prior to welding and cooled slowly after. If you want to drill a punching hole or make a hardie hole in the rail be sure to grind away any heat affect material from cutting. Then drill on a drill press at low speed. The results are a 100 pound (50kg) or more anvil with an effective mass of a much heavier anvil. The flat working face will be about 3" (75mm) wide long enough for most work.    - guru - Friday, 06/01/07 22:27:02 EDT John N-- Sirrah! That's not a rant, that's good solid advice based on long experience on how to come by books one cannot afford, which is one of the things we were discussing here. Pay attention and you might learn something besides being ingratiating.    Miles Undercut - Friday, 06/01/07 22:47:33 EDT NOTES: 1) While the above RR-Rail anvil has a high effective mass for direct downward blows it will not resist sideways blows and heavy work on the horn much better than an anvil one third its mass. You cannot beat the compact mass of a traditional anvil for resisting motion in many directions. 2) The anvil head may be welded on at 90 degrees to what is shown. There are advantages and disadvantages. The primary advantage is the longer weld area under the anvil top. However the sweet spot where the best mass is will still be centered over the head of the lower piece of rail. The position of where the stand/post changes. This may be good or not.    - guru - Friday, 06/01/07 22:49:46 EDT My favorite University library has a copying machine that has a 110° corner to put books over while copying and it sees to within about 3/8" (10mm) of that corner. Even then some the old stiff books do not like having the pages flattened at that angle. However, it must save a ton of wear and tear on the books that are not that stiff. With care even the stiff old books could be copied without flattening 100% and without a shadow in the type area.    - guru - Friday, 06/01/07 23:05:16 EDT thanks everyone for the quick response. not what i was hoping to read. looks like its time to start measuring and building some dies for stamping fan blades. will be using old riveted champion design and can adapt as necessary.    kirt - Friday, 06/01/07 23:56:31 EDT I am working with some Boy Scout's on their metal working merit badge and I need some ideas or patterns to complete the blacksmith option. I had some ideas, but they do not seem to do the requirements. Bob    Bob Mancuso - Saturday, 06/02/07 00:08:15 EDT I'm, well I'm young, 12 to be exact and I want to get into blacksmithing for the purpose of weapons and armor. And yes I know weapons are dangerous but I already heve five swords. I am well aware that I would have to practise on simple things but my goal is to make sword and armor. I need a simple and relitivly cheap forge that I could build in my backyard    Bradley - Saturday, 06/02/07 00:43:43 EDT Jake, Try Newengland Blacksmiths Associaton Good group of guys They have a teaching shop in Brentwood NH. I am a hobby smith located in Royalston, Ma. Next town south of Richmond NH ....Near Keene NH. You may contact me by clicking on my screen name at the end of this post Harley    Harley - Saturday, 06/02/07 03:21:34 EDT I read a few years ago about a company that was developing a compact printing/binding machine. The idea was that you'd walk into a book store, and they could download any book in a database and print one for you. I'd hate to see *all* books be printed that way, but it seems like the system might have its place. I wonder if any more's been done on it.    Mike BR - Saturday, 06/02/07 07:55:04 EDT Bradley: I use the references that competent blacksmithing is about like a college degree. Competent forged knifemaking (as defined as producing something someone else is willing to pay high dollars for) is somewhat having a master's degree in blacksmithing. Competent forged swords and armor is somewhat like having a PhD in blacksmithing. What you are suggesting is a bit like someone entering a toddler in an Olympic marathon. Put away the computer games and start planning to take every high level course your middle and high schools offer. In college a triple degree in fine arts, business and metalurgy may serve you well.    Ken Scharabok (Poor Boy) - Saturday, 06/02/07 08:57:41 EDT On acquiring equipment sometimes persistence does pay off. A friend bought a Hossfeld bender off a mutual friend for $200. Simply beat me to it. He pretty well just put it in an outbuilding as something he might have a use for sometime in the future. Hey, the price was right for a packrat. When the opportunity arose I have tried to buy it off of him. Earlier today he accepted $300 for it, with the stipulation it is his to use if that need does arise. But, alas, to make room for it my riding lawnmower is going to have to live out in the barn.    Ken Scharabok (Poor Boy) - Saturday, 06/02/07 09:18:58 EDT Bradley - You sound a lot like I did when I was your age :) Weapons and armor can be advanced, but there are smaller projects to start that will teach you the skills needed for the big stuff . Not even guys with masters degrees start on the hard stuff, after all! My recommendation is to start small. Set a 4" fixed bladed, single edged knife as your target. Research what it will take to make your forge (its not that hard! There are plans here to help!), you might need to make your first tongs, and so on. By the time you're done making all your tools and researching (which is the most important thing! Research everything! Know what you need to do and in what order!) you'll find you've acquired a lot of knowledge about blacksmithing that will help when you start your knife. There is a lot more to it, but feel free to ask questions. More than one person here started the exact same way you did, with just a desire to make certain things!    SteelGeek - Saturday, 06/02/07 11:00:05 EDT Cheap Forge, Budget Armoury: Bradley, See our plans page for the Brake Drum Forge. and also the link to My First Forge. These are cheap to build hobbiest forges that will burn coal or charcoal. You will need to do some scrounging for parts. Auto garages often have worn out brake drums or bent auto wheels to get rid of. You will need to learn to wheel and deal. By far the cheapest forge is the pit forge. This is just a hole in the ground about 6 to 8" deep lined with clay (red brick clay mud or pottery stoneware clay). It will need a side tunnel which is often lined with stone but a piece of 2" pipe will work fine. The side tunnel goes to your air supply. This can be a bellows, blower (hand crank or electric), "wine skin". An electric blower is best if working alone. If you have helpers and want to go REAL primitive you can use a second larger pit covered with an animal hide (heavy blanket) that you lift with a corner open to let air in, then push down with the corner closed to blow air on the fire. This method takes a little practice but way done by near stone age peoples at the beginning of the age of metals. Charcoal means REAL wood or lump charcoal, NOT molded briquetts. These are made from sawdust, charcoal powder and glue. They do not provide the same kind of fire and heat as real charcoal. See our Coal and Charcol FAQ Pit forges must be built in clay soils not sandy or loamy (high organic soils). Some high organic soils will burn and are not suitable for building a forge in. You can surround your forge with stones like a fire pit but DO NOT put them in the forge. Many types of stone will spall (explode) from the high heat. Scrap brick is better if you can scrounge some up. For armour work the majority of plate work is done cold. The primary tools are wooden stumps and large round faced and various specialty hammers. Many armourers make their own hammers because they are both rare so you never find used ones OR they are expensive. Many of the hammer types are the same as used for auto body work. Stumps can be picked up when trees are cut by the city or highway crews. Ususally they end up going to the land fill but the property owner MAY want them for firewood. SO ASK. If you tell them what you want it for you may have good luck. If you are in a location that has few large trees then you can make your own stumps by laminating pieces of framing lumber (2x6, 2x8, 2x10) into a heavy block. The most difficult task in plate work is cutting the material. There is no easy cheap way to do it. The old fashioned shears that looked like tin snips that were used for plate were HUGE things four feet long and operated by two men. The most popular tool for cutting armour plate is a "Beverly" shear or a throatless shear. They are called a Beverly because that is the only company that made them for many years and they still make the best. They cost $600 or more. However, you can get a cheap knock off from Harbor Freight for $99. But you get what you pay for. Tools tools tools: While many tasks can be done the hard way with a hammer, scraper, stone and other primitive tools you need almost infinite patience and desire PLUS strength and ingenuity to make anything. Tools CAN be found inexpensively but that requires transportation, the ability to follow leads, make deals AND there is almost always a cash cost. It also takes a talent or a "nose" for where tools are OR an imagination to apply them. Things some people seem to do for free or almost no money others spend thousands of dollars on.    - guru - Saturday, 06/02/07 11:07:37 EDT Boy Scout Projects: Bob, Many of our iForge projects meet the requirements EXCEPT that the rules (if you are sticking to strict rules) call for the boys to design their own "tasteful" projects. . . Which I think is a stretch. BUT, There are a few that could. I could at that age. But that is why I am here now. . . See iForge demo #110, Spiral candle holder See iForge demo #132, Easy Tongs See iForge demo #135, Scounce There are many others, you will have to decide. Most of the iForge projects are beginner's projects and many made 100% on the anvil. When we ran Scouts through a 1 day merit badge-a-thon we forged two items. From 1/2 or 7/16 square a tent stake (point one end, bend the other). From 1/4" round or square an S-hook. The two years I helped with this there was only ONE boy out of a dozen or more that had any hand skills or real interest in metal work. The rest had never held a hammer and were just there for an easy merit badge. Those two boys (one each year) could ALMOST finish the third project above in the time alloted (about an hour's turn at the forge). What surprised me was the lack of boys that had ever held a hammer of ANY type doing ANYTHING. They had not built a tree house, dog house, bird house. . or driven a tent stake or used an ax . . . these were BOY SCOUTS!    - guru - Saturday, 06/02/07 12:34:48 EDT Thanks guys. this has been most helpfull    Jake - Saturday, 06/02/07 13:59:24 EDT Box bellows vs. "accordion style" John, Sorry we got off on other tangents. Drilled holes in a pipe are a waste of time and effort. If the forge gets to a decent temperature the steel pipe will burn out. In a trough forge the air comes in from one side from a gap between two bricks. For a LARGE trough forge the air comes in from two gaps on one side. The reason for the air coming in from one side is simplicity and tradition. Traditionally there was no easy way to pipe air to the opposite side of the forge so air came in via a wood duct on the side of the bellows. Using modern pipe you COULD come in from both sides but it is a complicated expense for very little purpose. The main topic, box verses leather bellows. From what I have seen and experienced the Oriental box bellows is just as good as the European Great Bellows. The big difference is the expense. The box bellows takes about half the lumber and NO leather. Thus they are cheaper to make. They are also slightly more durable as there is no leather to poke a hole in. Cost to build a first class box bellows is half or less of an equivalent Great Bellows. Mistakes people make building either is using plywood. In a regular bellows you use MANY nails to hold the leather on. These are driven into the edges of boards. Plywood will not hold nails this way and when many are used it splits the plywood apart. On box bellows the common plywood grain causes very high friction which is no good in a sliding piston device. So be sure to use REAL wood. Top grade pine shelving works well if it has few knots or if you work around them.    - guru - Saturday, 06/02/07 14:07:25 EDT Well Bradley about learning about metallurgy an properies of metals all i can say is BOOKS BOOKS BOOKS!!! your probably in jr. high right? check your library for metal working books, especialy old ones. also if you have a shop teacher, pick his brain. one of the main things is to learn why metal does the things it does.    - Maiers - Saturday, 06/02/07 18:48:10 EDT I would Just like to add that an a Eagle scout I am appalled by these boys lack of hand tool use. Shucks you couldn't get the tools out of my hand during some project we were working on. How times change(and I'm only 19!). I guess being a scout isn't what it was for me, what a shame. One can only hope that the two boys will take on the spirit of scouting and continue to learn all those cool skills that I did at their age. Anyway just had to say that to any of the boys that visit this page. John    John - Saturday, 06/02/07 18:53:04 EDT Hey, guru. what length of handle should i put on a 4 pound cross peen?    - Maiers - Saturday, 06/02/07 20:23:00 EDT Maiers, I would put a 16"-17" haft on, but you might get as many answers as there are blacksmiths. From the Hammer-in, the face can be round or squarish all edges radiused. No chamfer that leaves a chamfer mark on your work. Face should be rockered slightly like the crystal of a pocket watch.    Frank Turley - Saturday, 06/02/07 21:06:28 EDT Is there anywhere to find plans to make a Hossfield Bender clone?    Thumper - Saturday, 06/02/07 22:13:44 EDT Ken Still no reply from Matthew-CEO of Hope Works. No Worries...it is obvious he could not handle honest product feedback when he went on a rant.He is a real W@#%*R!! Cheers Burnt B    - Burnt Forge - Saturday, 06/02/07 22:32:32 EDT What would be the most common material used for store bought tongs?    Donnie - Saturday, 06/02/07 22:38:29 EDT Donnie 5160 Don't get them hot and quench them. They will crack if hit then. Hot Rolled mild steel is fine to use to make tongs. Early tongs were soft as well.    - Burnt Forge - Saturday, 06/02/07 22:44:18 EDT Just got back home after completing Frank Turley's 3-week blacksmithing class. It was a terrific experience; I learned more in that 3-week span than I did in my previous 20-year interval of "messing around with it on odd weekends". Frank is an amazing resource. Eric T    - Eric Thing - Saturday, 06/02/07 23:35:04 EDT Handle Length: If you purchase a good commercial handle that fits the eye it will be the standard length which is fairly long similar to what Frank noted. You can decide to cut it off later if you want it shorter. A four pound hammer it really heavy unless you are very strong. If it is too heavy for normal use there are two ways to go. Very short for single handed use OR longer than standard (about 24") for two handed use as a sledge. In this case you need to purchase a sledge handle for it. I purchase top grade handles from McMaster Carr. They have a good selection. Often when you go to local suppliers they will not have the right sizes. You can make your own handles. You want good straight grain hickory. It is best to split out handle blanks from fresh log sections then leg them dry. I would split and rough shape green wood with a draw knife, rasp then drive a staple in the end, hang up and let dry. You can make 5 or ten an hour from green lumber. The near finished handles air dry fairly quickly and do not check. OR you can use old handles to make new. . .    - guru - Sunday, 06/03/07 00:35:30 EDT I am looking for a buyer of three old metal lathes. They belong to the widow of a school shop teacher in NY. She is a close family friend. One is a Porter lathe. One is an Atlas. The third is a smaller South Bend which might also be convertible to use for wood as well. There are also piles of accessories. I am not a machinist but I have seen similar lathes and their relevant tools sold on e-bay for varying amounts. The most important thing is that they are sold at a fair market value to someone who can use and appreciate them. Delivery can be discussed. Thanks.    John Koch - Sunday, 06/03/07 06:09:56 EDT Dear John Koch, I don't know how much interest you will get here, but I do know of a great website where alot of people would be interested in buy those lathes if only just to save and later restore them. the website is: wwww.practicalmachinist.com just click on the lathe to enter the website. Hope this helps. John    John - Sunday, 06/03/07 11:23:47 EDT Thumper: Several years ago, I found a set of plans for a Hossfeld clone that was put out by an outfit making low-cost wheelchairs for third-world countries. Sadly, that link went away with a HDD crash five years or so ago. However, here is a set of plans that should do what you're loooking for. http://www.kinzers.com/don/MachineTools/bender/    vicopper - Sunday, 06/03/07 13:04:48 EDT Troy; you basically are looking for a low grade blade shop; you might ask around swordsmiths at a RennFaire that do production work. In a high grade shop your "helping" will reduce the price upto several *thousand* dollars for a sword; I don't know if you can afford to pay that much to work there. Have you read the Sword Making and Apprenticeship FAQ'a and thought long and hard about them? For armour making I would suggest the armourarchive.org forums and note the english spelling of armour; lots easier to get into armourmaking then to leap into blademaking. Guru; I used an european great bellows, (late renaissance for blacksmiths a bit earlier for goldsmiths), for about 20 years----it did not have a single piece of leather in it, and I believe that Biringuccio's "Pirotechnia" mentions some metalworking bellows not using leather as well. Shoot I once built a single bellows that used the wood from an old printer stand and an old awning thrown out by an awning company. Only bought hardware for that one and that from the fleamarket. Where the *real* difference is is in transportation! My great bellows took up most of the bed of my pickuptruck when mounted on it's stand. A chinese box bellows you could even bring on a plane as checked luggage! I've used both and prefer the great bellows I built to the CBB that someone else had built---but preferred that CBB to a bellows another fellow had built and made such that it was enourmously tiring to use. Thomas    Thomas P - Sunday, 06/03/07 14:48:33 EDT Do you know of any way for people who want to apprentice or work for a sword or blacksmith to find someone? Is there any way to contact people looking for this set up or them to contact you. I'm looking for a summer job.    Troy - Sunday, 06/03/07 15:37:01 EDT Troy: If it is a summer job I assume you want something in the local area. Look in upper right for NAVIGATE anvilfire. Scroll down to ABANA-Chapter.com. It is a link to the list of ABANA affiliates. Find those in your general area and ask there. They might have someone looking for a summer hire, but your chances are a bit slim. I suspect you will find there are only a relative handful of blacksmith enterprises large enough for even a single employee, much less several. If you just want the experience, check in the Yellow Pages of large cities near you under Iron Working, Decorative Iron, Ornamental Ironwork or such. These are mostly cut and stick shops, but will provide some valuable training for you anyway.    Ken Scharabok (Poor Boy) - Sunday, 06/03/07 16:13:27 EDT Fire Welding, Steel Cable & Damascus: Greetings all, found some borax, and am attempting fire welding. very tricky. I've read some of the articles/tutorials here, but can't seem to get the hang of it. practice obviously, but maybe I'm doing something wrong. I've tried welding 2 square stock pieces together using this process: 1) upset the faces, made scarfs (convex like) 2) heated to just under cherry, and applied borax, thin coat 3) held the pieces in the fire for the borax to melt, then added some more borax. 4) after I nice gooey coating of borax, shoved both pieces in the fire, waited till it was sparkly 5) hit them. 6) repeated after I was done, I appeard to have a nice weld going. so I heated the whole piece, maybe not super sparkly hot, then tried to twist the piece. during the twist, near the ends of the welds, the welds broke, or maybe didn't hold. although I think some of the weld held, not sure, I stopped twisting. Is my process correct? I've also tried using 1 piece of round stock, with a small end piece (3 or 4") bent back on itself. heated the end, applied borax, sparkly hot, hit. fail's every time. I've tried hitting it lightly, hitting it hard, hitting it hard enough to make it flat on first blow (power hammer), no dice. it seems like more often one edge just goes into the other. long story short, weld failed. what's wrong ? And a question concerning steel cable + damascus, I've read online, and seen on youtube the welding of steel cable to make some sort of damascus. I've tried this with a maybe 1/2" thick cable. cleaned the cable well with gas, (was very greasy), heated one end, applied borax nice and evenly, heated to sparkly, and hit. with the cable, some welds are visible, on the outside anyway. My question is, if I do this, what keeps the borax from staying inside the steel cable (foreign material) ? And how can I tell if my weld is good. Is there some sort of secret to this ? this is a long process, and have not had the chance to completely weld a small piece of cable, maybe 6"- 1', but I would have to heat very many times. does this not weaken the steal quite a bit ? Any comments/help/advice greatly appreciated. thanks, -bruno    bruno - Sunday, 06/03/07 16:42:12 EDT Bruno, Welding heat varies with material. Sparkly is OK for wrought iron but is too hot for mild steel and well into burning of higher or not-so-mild structural steels. Mild steel is one of the hardest to forge weld because of the higher temperature needed than high carbon steels AND need not to burn it. The correct temperature is just as the surface becomes a slightly liquid lemmony yellow. It helps to have the surfaces very clean before heating and fluxing. On cable you are overheating as well. You need to heat, twist tighter, flux, heat, weld gently until you have a length welded and then heat and finish the internal welding. Often you want to cut several lengths and twist them together and weld rather than try to weld one thin piece. In all steel the forge weld is often weaker than the surrounding metal due to decarburization. In the case of making cable Damascus the lower carb zones is what makes the pattern. If there was no decarburization and everything was uniform there would be no pattern to see when etched. When you make cable Damascus the outside decarburizes a lot and you may need to grind off nearly 1/8" to get to good metal, less when drawn out (maybe 1/16"). The borax will all (mostly) squeeze out via the ends if you have a good weld. When wrought iron is forge welded there is nothing to decarburize and the result is thicker than normal pure iron layers that are as strong or stronger than the surrounding metal. The key is getting your fire HOT but not too oxidizing and heating the metal carefully to get good welds. Yep the pros make it look easy. . but they have failed welds as well.    - guru - Sunday, 06/03/07 17:57:36 EDT Looking for Employment: Troy, When the first words out of your mouth are, "I want to learn to make swords", you are not going to be taken seriously. They are going to roll their eyes, think OH NO, NOT ANOTHER ONE, and send you to their worst enemy down the street. There are thousands of would be sword makers out there that do not have a clue about the difficulty of the process or the work involved much less have any background doing anything. What folks are looking for in their shops is a dependable hard worker with some SKILLS. You do not have to be an expert and it doesn't have to be in blacksmithing. Blacksmith and fabrication shops are looking for: They are looking for people that can read drawings, cut stock to length +/- .010 EVERY TIME and not waste material. Reading drawings includes understanding scaling, proportioning, conversions of fractions and decimals as well as metric to English. All those things you are SUPPOSED to know and do without tutoring by the 8th grade (age 13-14). Errors mean failures that cost money and your JOB. This is the real world. So what is .8125" on a tape measure? Have to look it up. . too slow. Someone that can arc weld and lay a good bead in any position using any kind of rod and any kind of welder without a lot of questions. Someone that has completed a welding coarse and understands the safety rules AND WHY those rules exist. They are looking for workers that when their task is done they don't have to be told what to do next, THERE IS ALWAYS A FLOOR TO BE SWEPT AND A TOILET TO CLEANED. If you are the bottom man on the totem pole these are your jobs between EVERY assigned job. If I see you standing in a pile of dirt wondering what to do next YOU'RE FIRED! They are looking for workers that don't break things. Every machine tool in a shop has the capacity to destroy it self OR hurt YOU. All it takes is one moment of stupidity to cost the shop tens of thousands of dollars in repairs and lost time. All it takes is one moment of inattention to hurt yourself, cause me a lot of paper work and raise my insurance rates. Hopefully you will quit after that because now I am looking for a reason to fire you. . . They are looking for workers that if they don't know, ASK or better yet, get out the MANUAL and read it, THEN ASK if they do not understand. I became famous as an ace foreign car mechanic in one year because I read ONE booklet on adjusting English S.U. Carburettors. . . ONE little manual. They are looking for folks that can operate more than one kind of machine and figure out others (without breaking them). You can learn a LOT by reading machine shop training manuals. Try Machine Tool Practices and Metalworking Technology and Practice (both current text books). Hoiw to Run a Lathe by SouthBend is also good. Just having studied these well will put you way ahead of the game without having turned ONE knob. If you have no skills then there is little chance of more than a part time clean up job.    - guru - Sunday, 06/03/07 18:51:06 EDT Vicopper, Thanks for the plan site. I've been making free hand scrolls out of 5/8"rnd, heated to red and beyond, and it takes forever going 2"-4" at a time!!! My vise is mounted to my work bench which is woefully underweighted (wood w/ a metal face), and only wall anchored which isn't enough for yardin" down on "heavy metal" in it's cold state.    Thumper - Sunday, 06/03/07 19:50:32 EDT Eric Thing-- I heartily second that applause for Frank Turley and his blacksmithing academy. I was an observer of his course not once but twice back in the mid-1970s, taking copious notes while my wife shot pictures, for magazine articles, then did a weekend workshop, and finally in 1991 took the course. Frank's detailed instruction, his close-- and sometimes brutal-- evaluation of the work one does, the historical perspective and the accompanying lore of the craft that Frank imparts, and not least of all the jokes, all make his school an invaluable, life-changing experience. I am proud to be an alumnus.    Miles Undercut - Sunday, 06/03/07 20:32:57 EDT Troy did you read the FAQ's I suggested? I know that you feel that your situation is different; but if you have all the skills then why not work for yourself over the summer? If you need training and training in smithing and armourmaking and bladesmithing is not a short fast thing then you are asking for people to pay you to learn and then you will be gone by the time you start to be an asset. Sorry; few people in a business will do that. If you still want to try to go that route, you might try over at swordforum.com---but you will get the same sort of responses! For armour making you could ask if there is a local armourer at your local SCA group, (sca.org---navigate their website till you get to your local group); but again I wouldn't expect much money for a summer's work. My suggestion is to see if a local welding shop could use a gofer and use that to hone your skills at welding. Thomas    Thomas P - Sunday, 06/03/07 20:34:19 EDT Thanks Eric Thing and Miles Undercut for your kind words. My course is so good, I sometimes wish I could take it myself.    Frank Turley - Sunday, 06/03/07 21:15:45 EDT Benders: Thumper, A Hossfeld type bender is a lever operated device with a LONG lever. They must be anchored stout enough to resist all that leverage. You will have to do better than your vise and bench. I've rotated ton welding platens with a lever bender. . . Back in my service station days we had a little manual tire changer on which we did all our odd ball work. It had a six foot lever that we often put everything behind. . It was mounted on a poured to fit spot of concrete that rose up into the hollow base and had four 1/2" anchor bolts. Never had a problem with it. When I moved we tried mounting it with red-heads (which pulled out) then expanding lead anchors which lasted longer but still pulled out with the first serious pull. THEN we used 16 or the red heads. . . still pulled out of the old hard concrete. Something to think about anchoring a bender.    - guru - Sunday, 06/03/07 22:33:31 EDT Get a hydraulic Hossfeld; then the leverage is against the machine itself, not the floor.    vicopper - Sunday, 06/03/07 23:15:12 EDT You suggested I could make a concrete plinth to support my proposed power hammer. I will make the top smaller than the base, as you suggested, but how much should the taper be? At last I shall have a guru approved use for some of the tons of rebar that are piled up around this place ;-)    - philip in china - Monday, 06/04/07 00:58:32 EDT Guru, Due to my limited shop size, I plan to put my bender under a shed roof attached to the back. I'll be digging deep and pouring a 300lb cement footing for it. I thought about making a stand that connected to my trucks trailer hitch for portabilities sake but scratched that idea cause I don't plan on doing much "on-site" work. Vicopper, I'm researching hydraulics or possibly a 12V linear actuator for the project also, however, $$ IS an object so I might have to stick with either brute strength or two small boy's and a donkey for my power supply.    Thumper - Monday, 06/04/07 00:59:36 EDT One way of anchoring to a concrete floor is to measure exactly where you need the fixing bolts before you lay the floor. A cardboard template of the base of the macine with fixing holes marked is an easy way of doing this. Use reinforcing mesh (but don't let Jock know you like to use rebar). Place that in the prepared hole before you pour in the concrete. Then weld threaded bar to the reinforcing mesh. This should be long enough so that it will be proud of the concrete floor and still long enough to go through what you are fixing down. Cover the threads with plastic or similar and pour your concrete. Once it has had chance to "go off" as we say in UK simply drop your machine onto the lugs, washer and spring washers and torque it all down. It really is very simple and that will not move. It will only be as strong as the concrete so if you are going to that much trouble make a good quality mix and lay it thick! 3:2:1 mix would be the minimum. To do some specialist jobs we used to use 3:1.5:1 (or 6:3:2) by volume but we needed hardness rather than mechanical strength although the MS of that mix is excellent especially if you pack it down with a compressed air poker which does make a tremendous difference. Also do not use ordinary round gravel. Get crushed gravel. The shape of it makes a much stronger mix- there is more to get a grip on. Thumper I see you talking about 300 pounds of concrete as though we should all be awe inspired. That is about 75 litres or a couple of farm sized bucketfuls.    - philip in china - Monday, 06/04/07 07:01:16 EDT Forgot to mention in that too long posting. Another advantage of fixing like that is that the fixings do not rely on the torque to keep them tight.    - philip in china - Monday, 06/04/07 07:03:27 EDT Went to pick up the Hossfeld #2 bender yesterday. $300 and it came with a bunch of dies and such (about two milk cartons worth). As noted above, now I have to figure out how to anchor it and see if it has the dies I need to put eyes on the end of rods or bars. One aspect is hot bending vs cold.    Ken Scharabok (Poor Boy) - Monday, 06/04/07 07:28:54 EDT 300# concrete: Thar is about 2 cubit feet or a couple bags fo quickcrete as Phillip noted. . . If it is keyed into an other concrete floor OR VERY hard ground it may resist considerable torque but would do little in soft soil or gravel. Note that I said I have rotated one ton platen plates with a typical Hossfeld type bender. IF you dig deep into hard compact sub-soil OR you have brick hard clay soil as we do in much of the Southern US then a small amount of concrete might do. Note that benders are also having a SIDE force applied to them, not purely rotational. The deeper you dig the better. For anchoring high torque items the possibilities to look at: There needs to be a good base plate, the larger the better. IF you have a huge piece of plate that covers your floor then any mounting that won't break off is sufficient because YOU are now part of the device (standing on it). See my vice mount in the vice FAQ. However, this would be a waste of plate (for a large bender) unless its the deck of a ship or other such thing. Again, the larger the base plate the lower the torque on the fasteners. Many benders have tubular stands with a small bolting flange. This is only sufficient if the anchors are set into the concrete when it is poured. Attaching the bender to a much larger plate (say a couple feet across) the torque on the fasteners is reduced greatly to where common expansion anchors MIGHT work (these depend on the concrete being just right and the holes not out of shape from hitting a hard piece of aggregate). It also depends on a concrete floor, not just a little square spot. Increasing the anchorage distance using less steel is a good solution. Several long arms extending from the device is more efficient than a large plate and will resist torque much better. However, this assumes a large floor area and the bolt heads present a trip hazard. These arms could also be attached to posts set deep into the earth. For mounting in soil I would bury a cross shape made of heavy treated lumber (6x6's). Each end should be anchored to a long bolt (threaded rod) set in concrete poured in post holes. I would extend the base of the bender for a couple feet in each direction with straps on top of the timbers. Cover everything with soil or gravel to prevent a trip hazard. This SHOULD take all one man can apply to a 6 or 8 foot lever. This last theme could be applied numerous ways.    - guru - Monday, 06/04/07 09:18:24 EDT Smithing in New Hampshire: Jake, as mentioned above, the New England Blacksmiths, www.newenglandblacksmiths.org is a great place to start. I'm Marc Godbout, one of the New Hampshire directors, and you can email me with any questions you may have. Too bad you weren't a day earlier. I could have directed you to our meet this past weekend, in Lincoln, RI. There was a member there selling a few Peter and Henry Wright anvils. He re-faced the tops (and he does know what he's doing), and was selling them for $1 a pound, so about $150. He may have some left and I can get you in touch with him, if you like. Also, we plan on having open forging at our Brentwood, NH site starting this summer. That will probably be once or twice a month. And there's a tool-making workshop coming up this June 16th for $25. Get info on that from our website. So there is a good amount of activity going on in NH and surrounding states. Hope you can take advantage. --Marc    Marc - Monday, 06/04/07 09:34:46 EDT Sloping sides on a plinth to raise hammer: Phillip, I would make the base a few inches larger in each direction for increased stability and balance. The amount is not critical, whatever looks good. Ideally it would be more than practical. Too much slope and the thing will get in the way of working around it or extending the treadle. What is normally done is a hole is cut in the floor and several feet of the plinth is below grade and much larger at the bottom. The depth is determined by soil conditions.    - guru - Monday, 06/04/07 09:40:03 EDT Re-thinking this base, I have 6X6 timbers framing my shop,(12' span), so perhaps I can make a modified tripod or quadrapod setup spanning two of the frame posts. Since the torque is lateral, bolting the base to the concrete wouldn't have to be so intense and if I make brackets for the timbers, I wouldn't have to be concerned with pulling out lag bolts. Phillip, I wasn't out to impress anyone with the poundage, I posted here for advice and some brain-storming, if I had all the answers I wouldn't have to post here at all would I?    Thumper - Monday, 06/04/07 11:56:25 EDT Guru, thanks for the info. Attempted again today and had some success, striking while at a high lemony yellow instead of sparkly made the whole difference. having trouble with getting the weld uniform though. tried welding something like figure 2 from "/iForge/tutor/jd_weld1/top_index.htm" page, and can generally get the middle and top welded somewhat decent, but the loose end gives me trouble, usually ends up flat, then I thin out that section of the stock. am I hitting too hard ? is it more advisable to tap gentle like very fast on that section to form the weld without thinning ? also, after (pretend) I have a nice solid weld, if I want to work with the piece afterwards, draw out, punch a whole, or whatever, should I stay at welding heat, or can I work at a med-high red, for example if I wanted to hit the top end and make a pyramid or something ? thanks again, -bruno    bruno - Monday, 06/04/07 13:57:32 EDT What are the sorts of things that can go wrong when producing sheetmetal assemblies and how can these be avoided?    mart - Monday, 06/04/07 13:58:00 EDT Mart, That sounds suspiciously like schoolwork (test) or a homework type question. We do not do student's work for them. IF you can be more specific such as describe a project you are working on that would be different.    - guru - Monday, 06/04/07 14:06:42 EDT I am making a bbq out of a 55 gal oil drum. I have cut it in two and am trying to weld a lip around the cut edge. I have a craftsman 110 gasless wire welder and a lincoln 225 stick welder. Both of them want to burn out the sheet metal without getting the angle iron welded on. I have 6011 and 6013 sticks and have cut the amps down to 40 with no success. Minimum setting on the wire welder do about the same. Suggestions?    JLW - Monday, 06/04/07 19:26:27 EDT Welding Thick To Thin: JLW, The first thing you need to know is that there different thickness 55 gallon drums. The heavy ones are about 18ga and the light ones 24. A big difference in weldability. The tricks to welding thick to thin ARE: No gaps. The parts need to be tight. When the thin warps from heat STOP, cool it, reclamp and start again. A heavy heat sink clamped to the back side of the area being welded can help prevent burn through. Put a heavy coat of barbecue black HT paint on it to help prevent sticking if there is melt through. WELDING: Direct the heat toward the thick part and let capillary action at the edge of the puddle connect the two. NEVER direct the arc toward the thin stock. Keep the welds short (1/2" to 3/4") and space them apart about 2". Rod sizes were not mentioned. I would use 1/16" (if available) or 3/32" E6013's. 1/8" will be too large. For attaching sheet metal to thicker material many wire welders come with a spot welding feature. This times the wire and power to an adjustable increment. A special 90° nozzle is part of the setup. Gasless wire welders use special flux core wire. Check with the manufacturer for specifics on welding sheet metal. However, I doubt you will get much help from Sears. The folks that KNOW (your local welding supplier) may not be all that helpful answering questions about a machine you bought from Sears. . .    - guru - Monday, 06/04/07 19:45:47 EDT Thanks guru. The smallest stick I have is 1/8. I will check out the welding shop for smaller.    JLW - Monday, 06/04/07 20:59:52 EDT To anchor to concrete I would drill the holes oversize, put in pieces of threaded rod and epoxy them in. I get the small kind with the mixing tube built in and they are about $7 and do a dozen or so small holes. The larger quart size that fit in a caulk gun you have to mix them in the tube and use it all in one shot. Make sure you blow the dust out of the holes first. If you drill clean through the slab I would think they would be pretty hard to pull out, but often times large voids (have seen 8" ones) under slabs because of poor compaction so if the hole isn't filling up that is why.    Leaf D - Monday, 06/04/07 21:00:33 EDT I was at a shoeing clinic a couple of years back, at Oregon State University, and a guy who does blacksmith stuff came up on Sunday and showed us how he braids metal. But he also showed us a way to antique the metal and then seal it so it won't rust. The antique part he did with a brass wire brush. But I don't remember what he did to seal it. Got any ideas? Thanks.    Tom Taylor/Horsepower Horseshoeing - Monday, 06/04/07 21:00:51 EDT Bruno, I don't know what you mean by "loose end". I refer to a lap welding scarf as having a heel, face, and point. Assuming you get the face welded, the points should fade into the heels. When you lap, the heel of one scarf meets the point of the other. If the point shows after the first heat, you can flux and when re-welding, use lighter, rapid blows than previously on the shuts. One of the reasons we learn to forge weld in 2007, is that the weld is forgable when we're finished. You should be able to shape it under the hammer. You don't need further welding heats to shape it, but rather, use good forging heats. Different thicknesses of stock require varying force of the hammer blows. For example, you can't weld 1" square to 1" square with dink blows.    Frank Turley - Monday, 06/04/07 21:22:23 EDT JLW: If it turns out that Your drum is too thin to weld You might put a strip of 1/8 metal on the opposite side and plug weld through holes in 1 of the heavier pieces right through the drum and onto the other heavy part. While it can be done it is trickey to stick weld material thinner than the rod, with 3/32 rod 18 ga [.045"] can be done pretty reliably with some practice. For the wire welder use the thinnest cored wire You can get, or a gass kit and .023 solid wire.    - Dave Boyer - Monday, 06/04/07 22:45:44 EDT Cable Damascus It is an inherent flaw in the cable damascus process that what gives the pattern are decarbeurized zones and crud that gets trapped between the fibres. I assume you are using non-galvanized cable, with little or no rust. Even with the best of materials and ideal conditions, problems seem inherent with the process. My suggestion is to get an adequate lump and go with stock removal (if you really like the pattern that comes from the cable welding process).    Paul - Tuesday, 06/05/07 02:11:20 EDT For Troy You might amuse yourself over the course of the summmer by learning some stock removal methods. Get yourself a file, some sandpaper and PGFB. If you work hard at a job this summer, you could probably afford a nice belt sander (Bader or Burr-King). A few dozen samples of your work will go a long way toward getting someone to take you seriously. Don't be afraid to take a handful of years before you produce anything worth showing. Have fun!    Paul - Tuesday, 06/05/07 02:26:23 EDT Hmm. I had noticed that in a couple of places the drum metal didnt burn off but sort of blew through like tubes stuck through to the inside of the drum. I will guess that is the basis of plug welding.    JLW - Tuesday, 06/05/07 08:21:20 EDT I recently built an oil burning forge from a 16 gallon oil drum, and it required a fair bit of welding. I used my new-to-me Lincoln stick weldler, and it was the first stick welding I'd ever done. Obviously, I'm *very* far from an expert. But one thing that helped me was a combination of stitch (intermittent) welding and backstepping. Keep your beads short and don't work long in one area. Make a short weld from left to right, then move several inches to the left of the first weld to start the next one. (You can reverse the directions if you prefer, of course.) Make the next weld short, too. Continue in the same fashion. If you need further welds along that seam, come back after things have had a chance to cool down. Your sheet metal has very little thermal mass, so it heats up really fast. If it's already hot when you start a weld, your odds of burning through -- which aren't good to start -- will be even worse. You can combine this approach with all the stuff the guru suggested. Good luck!    Matt B - Tuesday, 06/05/07 11:38:17 EDT Hello Guru, I apologize if this is a double post, but for some reason I can't find my question of a few days ago. It seems the archives are missing a section from May 15th-31st. If you can point me in that direction I'd appreciate it. Otherwise, do you have any advice about how to make the spring and collar for a post vise? I've had difficulty finding a close-up illustration on the web to work from. I have an old vise in good condition but that is lacking a spring and collar and wish to repair it. Apologies once again if this is a double post, but I can't find the first one.    Copper Heron Forge - Tuesday, 06/05/07 11:48:04 EDT Matt the going to the far side of the previous bead is not something I have tried but it makes sense. As you weld the joint heats and the work spreads apart. At the opposite end of the bead the work will have been tight and it will also be cooling when you back up. . . Neat trick. It doesn't solve all the problems but sure makes sense in situations where you need every little break you can get.    - guru - Tuesday, 06/05/07 11:50:18 EDT I keep a few pieces of heavy copper plate around for those times I have to weld thick to thin, or very thin work. The copper is put behind the thin stock to abstract heat from it, which it does very well due to its high thermal conductivity. If you don't have copper, sterling silver will work even better :-)    vicopper - Tuesday, 06/05/07 12:35:12 EDT Copper Heron Forge: Go to the menu in the upper right of this screen and scroll down to FAQ's. From there, go to Vises, Blacksmith's, Post & Leg. There are some good pictures there that should give you what you need.    vicopper - Tuesday, 06/05/07 12:47:11 EDT Copper Heron, I just posted that archive (last week's) with the response. The FAQ does have photos.    - guru - Tuesday, 06/05/07 13:08:12 EDT Finding a Job - No Experience: There is nothing wrong with dreaming as long as you have a realistic plan to achieve those dreams. Finding a first or part time job has always been a problem for young people and the answers never get easier. Back in the 70's my brother-in-law had spent 3 years taking drafting in High School. He also had a lot of experience working on cars and motorcycles. So he was pretty handy with a wrench, understood how things worked but had no job experience. He tried for a long time to get a drafting job but instead ended up working construction. ALL the drafting jobs said "Experienced only need to apply". A few years later one of my younger brothers and my other brother-in-law got a job sorting hardware for an old machine shop that was moving. They had a 50 year collection of nuts, bolts, screws and fasteners of every size type and material. It was ALL mixed and dirty and needed to be sorted to be useful. It was one of those shit jobs that nobody wants. Hours and hours of sorting through piles of little parts mixed with dust dirt and cobwebs. But THAT one job was what they were hired for. They were each given a cheap plastic size and thread gage and a stack of bin boxes and told to go to it and they only had two weeks. By the end of the first week they could both tell a #10/32 from a #10/24 and 1/4-20 by eye. They also knew the markings for high strength vs. low strength hardware and the difference between a SHCS (Socket Head Cap Screw) and a Torx and a philister head screw. They could tell zinc plated from stainless by color. They knew pop rivets from drive rivets and plain rivets and the various head types. At the end of the two weeks they had both had the experience of a lifetime that would serve them both well in future jobs designing and building machinery, running inventory systems, debugging hardware. . . It was a PAID education in engineering fasteners! You never know what you will learn from