WELCOME to the anvilfire Guru's Den - V. 3.3

THIS is a forum for questions and answers about blacksmithing and general metalworking. Ask the Guru any reasonable question and he or one of his helpers will answer your question, find someone that can, OR research the question for you.

This is an archive of posts from June 23 - 30, 2011 on the Guru's Den
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Magnetism : Thanks for the info. I am experimenting with amps time and movement. One interesting point is that the steel tubing is magnetized in the as received condition, slightly but evident. Cutting it into 15 to 26 inch pieces results in smaller magnetized pieces. Heating it to bright orange removes the magnetism but greatly complicates the finishing of the pieces.
   Jim Curtis - Thursday, 06/23/11 11:52:11 EDT

Jim, You need to let the supplier know the tubing is magnetized. They may not know and need to discuss it with THEIR supplier. . This happens from time to time and it is something no-body wants. Often magnetised materials are scraped. . . thus the price should be lower than new.

Three things demagnetize:

Alternating magnetic fields.

The best idea game from Grant. An AC induction motor with the armature removed. The poles in the windings are very much like those on a demagnetizer. You might want to line it with a piece of plastic tubing. It only takes a few seconds to do the job.
   - guru - Thursday, 06/23/11 12:13:21 EDT

Fire and Forge : Thanks for the input, Jock and Thomas. Thomas, I do have a good friend of the family who is a professional blacksmith, though he lives a good two hours away I see him as often as I can. I live in central Texas (over 18), he works in Mansfield on the southern rim of the Dallas/Fort Worth Metroplex.

The forge is iron, mild steel probably. It's got a shaft leading straight down with a door at the bottom to let the waste out and close back again, and it's got an air feed on the side that I've got a crank blower hooked up to.
I'll make sure to keep breaking up the coal into small uniform pieces, and I think I'll remove the grate at the bottom. The refractory's already set though; it's been there for a while. Would it be worth trying to chip out for the extra space?

Thanks for the link to the coal fire management. That's exactly what I was looking for.
   Korigan - Thursday, 06/23/11 14:26:50 EDT

Korigan, Don't try to remove the refractory at this point. Learn to use the forge and control the fire. Try other forges and then decide what to do.
   - guru - Thursday, 06/23/11 15:20:32 EDT

What I use to keep the fire out of the dump tube is expanded metal---not the cheap stuff for stucco but not the really bigh heavy stuff either---I get it at the scrap yard and one piece cut out with a hammer and cold chisel on a chisel pad and then dish it to fit my firepot. It lasts about 4 days of general use including forge welding.

It lets the fines drop down with no problem and reduces back pressure on the hand crank blower. When I go to start up the next day I will remove it and hammer off any clinker stalactites and re-install. You do need to learn not to snag it when putting steel in and out of the fire. Not a problem with practice.

   Thomas P - Thursday, 06/23/11 19:38:12 EDT

I once melted down a bunch of magnetic steel needles into a billet for knifemaking. After forging and completion, I noticed the end product was not magnetic, nor could I make it so. Turned out it was all 300 steel. Sometimes the magnet test works in reverse.
   - Nippulini - Friday, 06/24/11 09:32:55 EDT

Nip, for 300 series stainless workhardening by hammering cold should restore the magnatism. The 300 series however will never get very hard, or very magnetic.
   ptree - Friday, 06/24/11 10:24:50 EDT

hey nip : Nip, I think I recall you saying you are in the Philadelphia area? I demonstrate blacksmithing at the Ryerss Museum in Burholme Park!
   - stewartthesmith - Friday, 06/24/11 11:59:00 EDT

Taking the Y1K forge to an SCA Event (after going to my Brother's wedding this weekend), back online around July 5th.

   Thomas P - Friday, 06/24/11 13:36:58 EDT

Flint Striker : OK, I am a bit puzzled. I made a friend two flint strikers, one from a 3/16" hay rake tine and one from a 3/8" hay rake tyne. Heated them to red, oil quenched. The file skated cleanly. I ground the face clean and sent them to him. He said they do not spark as good as the one he is used to using. I have also made them from old files. I always get them hard as woodpecker lips but I don't have much good flint to try them with. I am using Texas flint/chert rock shards and I can get sparks but not a HUGE burst as he indicates he gets. So what do the rest of you guys do?
   quenchcrack - Friday, 06/24/11 16:11:53 EDT

fire strike : First off how good a friend is this?
I'd say see for your self what sort of a spark burst he gets using the same 'flint' on them compared to the one he's used to using.
I forge the struck side as thin as possible, usualy end up about as thin as a dime.
Some rock just doesn't spark as nice as others. With practice you can start a fire with a red spark just as easy as a white one. I gather up any glassy looking rock I find, crack it with a hammer and test a sharp edge to see how it sparks.
   JimG - Friday, 06/24/11 19:34:20 EDT

also some hayrake tynes were made from as cheap a steel as possible and end up being what was called "red short"
   JimG - Friday, 06/24/11 19:35:55 EDT

Quenchcrack : I think it depends on the species of woodpecker.
   - Dave Boyer - Friday, 06/24/11 22:30:34 EDT

Flint striker : I use most any highcarbon scrap. files, screwdrivers bedsprings, you name it. But I always quench in water.
Often I will anneal the curlie-cues and such so they dont break off.
Never have a problem getting good sparks. Agate is about the only stone I can find around here thats hard enough, But rarely do I have any problem getting good sparks so long as the original material is good highcarbon steel.
   - Mikki - Saturday, 06/25/11 00:07:11 EDT

Stewart, yes I am around Philly. I work in Philly and Bucks, but live in and forge in Bucks. How often are you at Burholme? That park is closest to our shop in Northeast Philly (Bustleton and Unruh aves). I have Sundays and Mondays off, need a striker?
   - Nippulini - Saturday, 06/25/11 08:59:16 EDT

when I say striker, I am referring to a swung hammer, not a flint/steel fire starter.
   - Nippulini - Saturday, 06/25/11 08:59:56 EDT

Pwr Hammer Dies : Hi, been awhile since i asked a question. I mostly lurk.

I just acquired a home built Ron Kinyon style air hammer. I knew when I bought it the owner was having trouble with the dies loosening up. Unfortunately it is going to be a little harder to fix then I first thought. It currently uses 3/8 bolts. I planned on going to 1/2 or 5/8 fine thread, but I have to change part of the bottom plate of the die to do that. Another option is to make an L shaped clamp with the larger bolts. A third, and most complicated, is converting it to wedges. I plan on changing dies fairly frequently (twice a day?). What would be the most secure, and /or the best way?

Thank you for your help.
   Milton Rodewald - Saturday, 06/25/11 17:26:26 EDT

Rust : I'm working on an art piece at the moment and for the finish to come out the way I want it I need to have the surface evenly patinaed. In the past I have used gun browning with less than satisfactory results. It comes out a little too smooth and I have to go over the surface with a tool to provide the texture I'm looking for. I know that rust is oxidized iron but will taking powdered rust and dusting it over the surface of steel cause a clean surface to rust more uniformly with slight pitting faster than letting nature take its course? If not then I think I had better get started with my texturing tool Monday.
Thanks for any help,
   Bill - Saturday, 06/25/11 22:38:12 EDT


Sprinkling rust on the piece shouldn't make any difference, except that it might help trap water against the surface. There a number of chemicals that can accelerate rusting -- the one I hear folks mention most is chlorine bleach. You'll probably want to experiment on a small piece first . . .
   Mike BR - Sunday, 06/26/11 06:20:16 EDT

Rust : If you want to make the piece rusty in short order, then Clorox or hydrogen peroxide will do the job. Use the 30-volume peroxide intended for bleaching hair, not the 6% medicinal stuff. You need to start with clean metal free of scale or with very uniform scale if you want a uniform rusted surface. The quickest results will be obtained if you first sandblast the work or pickle it in muriatic acid to remove all scale and surface contaminants. After that, an application of the oxidizer (Clorox or peroxide) will produce a rusty surface in a couple hours. To get it even more evenly rusted, scrub the first coat of rust with a Scotchbrite pad and repeat the process. When you have the finish you like, you'll need to seal it to prevent the rust from rubbing off on everything that it comes in contact with. Clear matte lacquer works fine, as does Renaissance wax.
   - Rich - Sunday, 06/26/11 09:49:25 EDT

Rust Finish :
You can always paint it rust colored. You would texture with Clorox or muratic acid then clean and paint over the texture (after cleaning). Red oxide primer with a little extra red, then black or dark brown lacquer, then sand off the top coat to leave the color in the etched areas. Or use a rubbing finish to darken the pits. Then in either case seal the whole.

Another route is to apply a thick coat of primer (or gesso) then texture it (use your imagination), then hand finish to suit.

The advantages of a painted to LOOK rusted finish is stability and no future rusting. You also have control of the final color. Such a finish can be as uniform or non-uniform as you want.
   - guru - Sunday, 06/26/11 16:36:06 EDT

Dies Loosening :
The 3/8" (10mm) bolts are a little small and may be the problem. Most bolt on dies on small hammers use 1/2" (13mm). 5/8" (16mm) would be a good heavy duty fastener in this application.

But the bolts may not be the only problem. The shape of the mating surfaces need to be flat against flat. Welded die flanges often warp upward a great deal and the 3/8" bolts may not be strong enough to flatten the flange into contact OR the warp may not be flattenable at all. A gap in such a joint will spring open and close, or rock back and forth, letting the bolt work free. How heavy is the sow or anvil block? If too thin it may be flexing. . .

What keeps bolts tight on non-compressible joints is stretch in the bolts. The torque on the bolt and the tension in the bolt must act to prevent a gap from forming and the bolt rotating. If you have sufficient threads (at least 1.5 diameters and not too loose) a high strength bolt properly tightened may make the difference. In the case of power hammer fasteners on dies and block they should always be high strength bolting (Grade 8, or L9). Socket head cap screws are good for these applications because they are hard, strong, precision and take less wrench space.

A clamp down system may work with a sufficiently heavy clamp. But you must keep in mind that any die holding system needs to provide alignment and repeatability if dies are to be changed often.

I cannot really advise on modifications to something I have not seen nor have specifications. Wedge systems are a long proven system but do not always work either. Parts must be sufficiently heavy, the fits precision. The machining is picky and can be expensive if you must pay others to do the work. Any redesign must clear guides, not effect travel limits and be capable to apply to the existing machine.

   - guru - Sunday, 06/26/11 18:47:04 EDT

Internet : For the past week our Internet service has been tweeky and we were completely without for two days. So if I do not respond to posts or mails this is probably why.
   - guru - Sunday, 06/26/11 19:07:43 EDT

Dies Loosening : Guru:

Thank you for the reply. You continually bring up details I had not thought about.

I am not really sure what a sow block is. My anvil is a welded up construction with a 1.25" thick cold rolled steel block welded on top of the anvil. The dies bolt to that. All the dies have a 5" X 3" X .5" thick flange of hot rolled steel. I just went out and checked them. Some are almost flat, others are out 1/64".

Does it may any difference of fine or course thread bolts?

Thanks again.
   Milton Rodewald - Sunday, 06/26/11 20:38:49 EDT

Sow block also known as Anvil Cap, usually removable. A replaceable part so that if the dovetail is damaged or worn it can be repaired. Often made of a more durable material (ductile iron, bronze) than the typical cast anvil of a power hammer.

Fine threads clamp tighter and are more vibration resistant. But they are easier to cross thread. They are easier to cut with a higher percentage of thread than coarse. I use them often in steel construction and coarse threads in soft materials such as aluminum and cast iron.

Your die flanges sound like the typical welded type except for the small bolts. Larger bolts could pull them down flat. But I would flatten/straighten them.

A weakness of the Kinyon hammers (original plan) is a light anvil with tubular support. But every builder does their own thing and there have been modifications to the plans. Power hammers need a lot of solid metal under the anvil cap and dies.

One thing to consider if the existing holes are too close to the dies or weld and reusing the old holes does not work, is that you can offset the holes. Move one forward and one back and you should have space for larger bolts and holes.

One nice bit of design on the Bull and Phoenix hammers is the round die flanges and multiple holes in the ram and anvil. The dies can be rotated to many positions. On the Bull's the flanges were welded on but on the Phoenix the dies are machined from round stock with integral flanges.
   - guru - Sunday, 06/26/11 23:04:18 EDT

Fire Stiker Steels : JimG, I always check the hardness after the quench and if the file doesn't skate, I discard the material. I tried an India-made file and it was a joke. I will try thinning the blade a bit, mine are about 1/8". As for the friend, he is in California so I don't know what he uses for flint. I have discovered that those nice round river rocks so popular with landscapers here in Texas are actually chert nodules and the glassier ones work as well as flint. My concern was that there was a step I was not doing that made the steel spark poorly. Evidently, the quality of the flint and how sharp it is plays a big part in the spark generation. Now if you will excuse me, I need to go slaughter a chicken so I can start the next batch of stikers...
   quenchcrack - Monday, 06/27/11 08:32:36 EDT

Ahh, the good ol' fresh-chicken-blood-quench. I usually do that when I am short on slaves.
   - Nippulini - Monday, 06/27/11 08:42:47 EDT

And I thought it was to appease the barbecue gods so that the strikers would happily start those weekend ritual fires!
   - guru - Monday, 06/27/11 08:53:09 EDT

I have an old Black Hawke 100 pound anvil, do you have any Idea what it is worth? I know it is an antique as it belonged to my Grandpa but he passed away in 1968. I am strapped for cash right now and was thinking of selling it, and I dont want to undercharge. Can you guys help me? give me an e-mail please scottwhitaker51@gmail.com thanks!
   - Scott Whitaker - Monday, 06/27/11 12:04:03 EDT

Illinois Iron and Bolt Co. Anvil : Whats the estimated value of an Illinios Iron and Bolt Co. anvil? Are they rare, or good anvils?
   Hayden - Monday, 06/27/11 13:25:46 EDT

Black Hawke Anvil :
These folks were an automotive tool supplier to the best of my knowledge. Like many things they probably had these made for them through "private branding" by a major manufacture.

So the trick is to determine who actually made it. If it has raised markings or numbers its a cast anvil. If stamped in and rather shallow its a forged anvil. If it has a serial number on the front of the foot it may be a Hay-Budden. If the bottom has an oval depression it may be a Trenton. If the depression is hour glass shaped then its a Hay-Budden but it could also be just a rim around the edge.

You can also tell somewhat by style. Hay-Buddens usually had a flat area under the root of the horn that was parallel to the base and top of the anvil. Others sloped more gracefully from the waist at an upward angle without a flat line. Photos help a lot.

Anvil value is like asking "whats my old pickup truck worth?". What model? Condition? How many miles?, Location? If its a cast iron junker in new condition its worth less than $100 to a non-smith. If its a forged steel brand name anvil in well used but good condition if might be worth $300 to $500 but if in rough condition or its unidentifiable much less. If you are in the rust belt it will sell for about 20% than in most of the U.S. but if you are along the West Coast it may go for 20 to 30% more than average. If you are in a hurry you won't get as much if you can wait.
   - guru - Monday, 06/27/11 13:44:39 EDT

II and B Anvils : II&B made the Vulcan brand anvils. These are a cheaper cousin of the Fisher Eagle. They have a tool steel face and cast iron body. Then are one step above a Star and two steps above an ASO. They are not worth half as much as other anvils but it depends on how desperate you are for an anvil. They will work. . .
   - guru - Monday, 06/27/11 15:24:04 EDT

Illinois Iron and Botl Co. : So a 150lb Illinois Iron and Bolt Copany anvils not worth $350? It has a mason emblem in the side not the typical Vulcan arm and hammer. Does that help the value?
   Hayden - Monday, 06/27/11 16:58:36 EDT

Are you looking for a tool or a collector's item? And as a special, is it really an anvil (with hard plate) or just a casting made for some special purpose?

So, which symbol of the basic 19?

If you need a value on this one you had best find some Free Masons or collectors of masonic memorabilia.
   - guru - Monday, 06/27/11 17:25:36 EDT

Antiques : " I know it is an antique as it belonged to my Grandpa but he passed away in 1968." What is the American definition of an antique? In UK it used to mean 100 years old. I have heard the argument- "It belonged to my (insert redescription of relative) who was born in (insert year a) therefore it is (insert current year minus year a)old". This supposes that everything owned by a grandparent is at least as old as said grandparent. Extending that line of argument the lettuce I bought yesterday is 56 years old.
   philip in china - Monday, 06/27/11 18:29:24 EDT

I keep reminding folks that working anvils are often 150 years old or more and truly antique anvils start at 200 and are commonly 300 years old. Even blacksmithing machinery such as power hammers are often 75 to 100 years old.

I think the age misconception is because you can get antique tags for an automobile 20 years old (I think). . . On the other hand most of the trucks I've had were about 30 years old. . .
   - guru - Monday, 06/27/11 19:26:07 EDT

Flint : I noticed people mentioning agate and other rocks, isn't flint a type of rock ? I wouldn't know where to look for it, but I would think it is common. I may take a little time to research it online. :)
   Mike T. - Monday, 06/27/11 22:07:58 EDT

Flint, Antiques : Flint - not necessarily that common - the native americans went far to find good flint and had a trade network for it - google flint ridge, ohio
also, flints from England - found as nodules in the chalk of the Downs. Antique cars - here in PA, it's got to be 25 years old for an antique car. We also have a designation for "Classic" - I'm not certain what those requirements are.
   - Gavainh - Monday, 06/27/11 23:33:02 EDT

Flint : Alabaites flint, found only in Central and North Texas, has been found as far up as Nebraska and the Dakotas
   Hayden - Tuesday, 06/28/11 00:18:30 EDT

Flint and Strikers. : Mike, Flint is part of a broad category of minerals such that mineralologists often do not have a clear definition of it. Jasper, chert, agate, forms of quartz are all loosely called flint and used interchangably.

True flint and the best point making and working flint is the nodular type created from sea sponges trapped in calcium based shell mater on ancient sea floors where it was transformed into flint nodules in the limestone. These nodules are found in areas of weathered limestone, thus the large amounts found in the blue grass country of Kentucky (blue grass thrives in weathered lime stone soils).

"Flint" arrow heads are made of this wide variety of minerals. I've seen points made of moss agate that today would have been cut and polished into gemstones. But in Virginia and much of the East Coast where it is flint poor the American Indians used various grades of quartz which is very difficult to work. Volcanic obsidian (natural glass) has also been used but is too weak and brittle for making sparks.

In the spark making process the flint does not make the sparks, the burning steel does that. The flint acts to create pressure, heat, and shave bits of steel off the striker. The texture of the flint that is exposed as it wears makes a difference in the quality and number of steel sparks.

Iron burns nicely with heat and oxygen. Carbon lowers the burning point so high carbon steel makes better sparks. But most alloying ingredients reduce the sparking property. Manganese makes lower carbon steels harden more and chrome and nickle reduce the ease of oxidation.

So, for the best sparking strikers you want plain high carbon steel sufficiently hardened.

There may be alloy additions that increase sparking but I doubt there are common steels allowed for that purpose and hardenability.

Note that the "flints" in a lighter or torch lighter are not mineral flint. They are an iron cerium alloy with Tantalum and Niobium called ferrocerium or Mischmetal. In this case the teeth of the steel throws off small bits of the Mischmetal which due to cutting pressure burns making a bright spark. This is opposite of the way flint and steel work.
   - guru - Tuesday, 06/28/11 00:48:15 EDT

Alibates Flint Quarries : Another fine National Park Service National Monument:


Meanwhile, it has been our custom to strike the steel with the flint, as if shaving off the steel to create the spark, while I note others who strike the flint with the steel. So; are each of equal efficacy, or are my friends and I heretics? ;-)
   Bruce Blackistone (Atli) - Tuesday, 06/28/11 09:37:10 EDT

Gavainh, you forgot about the "Historic" designation here in PA. Vehicles deemed "Classic" are restricted to use on certain times of the year (holidays, weekends, etc.). I asked the tag office about my Pinto, the lady looked out the window and said it can't be classic or antique because it needs a certain percentage of original parts (how she could tell by looking out the window is beyond me... the Pinto has 69,000 miles and is 95% original).

I remember as a kid we would take an old Bic lighter, remove the flint and spring, wrap the spring around the flint and heat it with another lighter. When it got hot enough we would throw it against a wall and watch it explode.
   - Nippulini - Tuesday, 06/28/11 09:45:11 EDT

There are some good articles on flint on the web. Quartzpage.de has some good information and so does yourgemologist.com

Like most valuable natural resources, flint is not found everywhere. But it is common enough that it has been prized for making stone edged tools on every continent for thousands of years. When it has not been available alternate materials have been found. Flint was probably one of the earliest trade materials.
   - guru - Tuesday, 06/28/11 09:45:25 EDT

It's funny how things are relative. When I was in high school, a '57 Chevy seemed like the epitome of an antique car (through I don't remember seeing one on the road). It would have been just old enough to get antique tags in PA. Today, an '86 anything would just seem old (and not even that old). I don't know if that's because I'm older, or because cars are lasting longer. Probably some of both.

I think my wife's going the other way. When she first got here from Taiwan, anything that wasn't made before the Ching Dynasty was just old. But her perspective is slowly getting more Americanized.
   Mike BR - Tuesday, 06/28/11 19:33:57 EDT

Frame of Reference :
Here in the US we have few buildings over 200 years old and in many parts of the country 100 is ancient. Compare this to European cities where just about every one has a church or cathedral 400 or 500 years old or older and very antique is around 1000 years. . .

I just turned 60 but mentally do not feel any older than 20. . . However, your view of what is old age changes over time. You go from not trusting anyone over 30 to thinking wouldn't be great to be 30 again. . .

My first two pickup trucks were both 1950 models. Legally antique at the time. I gave my second one to my brother about 1980 and he used it rebuild two homes over the next decade. It finally became beyond affordable repair after a being in a floor. It was 40 years old.

My heavy Ford flat bed is a 1979 model. That is 32 years old and is still a good vehicle. I would use it more if it didn't get only 7 MPG.

I did not feel like I was getting old when I turned 50 but 60 is definitely over the hill. . .
   - guru - Tuesday, 06/28/11 20:01:39 EDT

It's funny how time seems to run at different rates, too. A state-of-the-art military aircraft in 1939 would have been a virtual antique by 1945.

But if I made a movie today, it would start with the opening sequence from Dr. Strangelove, showing the B-52 refueling from the KC-135. Then the camera would pull out a little and you'd see that it was actually someone watching Dr. Strangelove on an iPad. The the camera would pull out more, and you'd see that they were in the cockpit of a B-52 refueling from a KC-135.

Of course, I have no idea what would happen after that. Guess I'd better not quit my day job.
   Mike BR - Tuesday, 06/28/11 21:51:59 EDT

Mike BR - 57 Cevy : When I was in school in the '70s, a '57 was a popular car to hot rod & cruise in. At about 20 years old at the time, they were not old enough for antique plates, and Pa. had not started issuing clasick plates or streetrod plates. Regular 57 Chevies weren't rare enough to be really super cool but the 57 Nomad wagon was.
   - Dave Boyer - Tuesday, 06/28/11 22:20:36 EDT

Passing Time :
When you are young, say just starting school, a year of your life is 1/5 of it and a summer seems to last forever. But as an adult that fraction dwindles and a summer is merely two bill paying periods. . .

The funny thing about classic and antique car plates is that they are not required. You can use standard plates. The difference is that the special plates restrict the use of the vehicle. I know VA antique plates restrict the use to daylight hours and maximum speed to 45 miles per hour. There may be other restrictions. I suspect this affects insurance costs but I do not know that for a fact.
   - guru - Wednesday, 06/29/11 00:27:04 EDT

Time : I remember when I was eight or nine years old, I felt so bad because to become a boy scout you had to be fourteen. I thought to myself that was so far away I would never get there. I remember the older folks saying they had indigestion, heartburn, my arthritis hurts etc. and I had no idea what they were talking about, I could not relate to it.
   Mike T. - Wednesday, 06/29/11 10:57:58 EDT

Bushing racking : Jock you posted on here in the last year or so about a ratio for the length of a sliding surface to the distance to an opposing sliding surface to prevent racking. I tried searching for it but could not find it. I am planning a press and I want to run two rods in bushings to keep alignment.
   - JNewman - Wednesday, 06/29/11 11:21:06 EDT

The locking angle for steel on steel is 14.5°. This is also the ratio of the coefficient of friction. If you use materials with lower coefficient of friction the angle is less. But if you stick with the ratio for steel on steel you are almost always safe.

The angle shown on this diagram is much greater than 15° so it cannot lock or "rack" as you call it. The angle in this case is between the corners of two bores. But the same rule applies to the corners of a single hole. When a part is short like a washer, if it contacts a rod at less than 15° it will lock. This is a common device used for various adjustments such as on stock supports, sliding clamps, vent windows, drawing board supports.

SO in one case you want the assembly to lock or rack and in others you do not. Stay away from that 15° angle one way or the other and you have a lock OR not.
   - guru - Wednesday, 06/29/11 12:04:50 EDT

Thanks Jock. I am going to have to extend my bushings as I am at 15.27 degrees, but I won't have to extend them as Far as I thought I might.
   - JNewman - Wednesday, 06/29/11 14:46:08 EDT

Yeah, that's a little close. Chamfers and such have an effect on the contact points. But its difficult to add up to a full degree.
   - guru - Wednesday, 06/29/11 16:01:09 EDT

Frame of Reference : Guru, I visited some buildings in South-western Colorado a few years ago that were reputed to be about 800 years old. Built into the side of a cliff at Mesa Verde.
   quenchcrack - Thursday, 06/30/11 07:44:43 EDT

Its easy to forget Native American structures due to there being so few that were very permanent. Those in Mexico, Central and South America are more impressive but still far and few between.

North America had its Mound Builders who built a few large structures but many more but still rare smaller ones thought to be burial mounds. Where forests grew up over them they are difficult to identify and those in flat open areas were often destroyed.

Along the East Coast of the U.S there are a few ancient stone structures but no buildings. In the Appomattox River in Virginia there are several large fish weirs (V shaped stone structures) that were in use when the Europeans came but had been built so long ago there was no memory of it. Estimates put them at thousands of years old.

Many Eastern meadows were the result of Native American land clearing by fire. A process that had to be repeated over and over to keep them clear. The purpose was to make open areas favored by big game and where it was easier to hunt. Most people do not think of buffalo existing in the East but they did. It is believed they were migratory and the Indians were trying to increase their number. European settlers had no idea that the most valuable cleared land they claimed as farmland were hunting grounds created by and maintained by the natives.

   - guru - Thursday, 06/30/11 11:20:49 EDT

let us not forget in camp verde arizona, Montezuma's castle, at least 1000 years old
   - larry - Thursday, 06/30/11 19:00:50 EDT

old stuff : montezuma's castle in camp verde arizona,....1000 years old, (used to live there)
   smithy - Thursday, 06/30/11 19:03:52 EDT

Taos Pueblo, New Mexico : I must mention Taos Pueblo which has been continuously inhabited for about 1000 years. My wife was born in the village, 2nd floor of their home. I believe that there are four stories in all. The resident Indians do yearly maintenance by replacing woodwork and replastering with adobe.
   Frank Turley - Thursday, 06/30/11 20:35:54 EDT

Taos Pueblo : Frank, my wife and I toured the Pueblo on a trip several years ago. It was very impressive in light of the extensive history. We did a circle tour from the Albuquerque to Santa Fe to Taos to Farmingnton to Mesa Verde to Chaco Canyon and back to the Albuquerque. If we found a ruin, we stopped! Took us 5 days and we loved it. It was my wife's idea; she is from Roswell, NM. Nanu Nanu.
   quenchcrack - Friday, 07/01/11 08:19:06 EDT

Mesa Verde. On the way down I kept wondering how fast a bicycle could go on the that slope.
   Ken Scharabok - Friday, 07/01/11 09:47:51 EDT

Roswell : quenchcrack,
What does your wife think about the UFO crash of 1947. What do the locals say ? I have studied it extensively and believe it was an actual UFO. Mickey Rooney's wife, Jan Rooney, was on the Larry King show one night. Her dad was a general at Roswell during that time. At the dinner table one night, they ask him what really happened at Roswell ? His response was...I am not allowed to tell you, but I can say this...the government knows we are being visited by aliens from other worlds. There was another one that crashed at Aztec, N.M. but you don't hear much about that one. I think we need to keep an eye on Frank Turley, he may be from Zeta Reticuli. :-0
   Mike T. - Friday, 07/01/11 10:47:15 EDT

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