| WELCOME to the anvilfire Guru's Den - V. 3.0 |
|
THIS is a forum for questions and answers about blacksmithing and general metalworking. Ask the Guru any reasonable question and he or one of his helpers will answer your question, find someone that can, OR research the question for you. This is an archive of posts from July 8 - 16, 2006 on the Guru's Den |
|
|
|
I do feel that i have the proper skill needed even after reading the articals and books i have found and so i was woundering if you might know of a hiltamaker in the area of wichita ks that i might be able to take my sword to.i look forward to you response. chris |
| chris - Saturday, 07/08/06 04:36:28 EDT |
|
Chris, You should probably try swordforums.com for that. You should also know that what you are looking for is a handful in the world and not likely in your backyard unless you are very lucky. You also need to be specific about the style and period of work you are looking for. IS this a repair/replacement on an historical piece or new work? Folks that do this work often specialize OR will work to your design. |
| - guru - Saturday, 07/08/06 07:47:06 EDT |
|
"U" shaped tool: Boogerman, Still hard to tell from your drawing. If the tool is a relatively heavy forging, roughly square at the face, top battered, then it is a "top set tool" or "half round swage". These are used with a matching bottom tool that fits in the hardy hole OR a swage block to dress round cylindrical shapes like axel stubs or bolt shanks. Goto BlacksmithsDepot.com, Anvil Tools and Stakes. See "round swage top". |
| - guru - Saturday, 07/08/06 08:40:41 EDT |
|
Hilt maker? I've never heard of that before, but that would be something to do when my experience piles up in a few years! You might be able to take it to a sword smith and ask him to make just the hilt. You actually might be surprised how many blacksmiths there are. I never thought there were any around here, but there are three or four of em. |
| - Rob - Saturday, 07/08/06 10:00:21 EDT |
|
Hmm. Anyone have an estimate of the number of blacksmiths in the US these days? Counting hobbyists, I would think it to be a substantial number. |
| Paymeister - Saturday, 07/08/06 10:38:00 EDT |
|
Probably between 10 and 20 thousand total including Canada. Maybe about 5,000 are professionals. |
| - guru - Saturday, 07/08/06 11:18:07 EDT |
|
chris If it's a japanese style sword these guys do good work from what i have been told. Never used them personally. http://www.bugei.com/ |
| Chris R - Saturday, 07/08/06 13:21:55 EDT |
|
Is there a formula to determine how much a piece will be drawn out while shaping? I'm working with a 31" long piece that's 2 1/4" wide and 1/4" thick, and I need to know if it will be drawn out enough for me. I need it out to at least 35 1/2". It's 9160 (according to what you guys told me at least, it's one of those old racing springs I mentioned before), and I heard that leaf springs are near impossible to weld... |
| - Rob - Saturday, 07/08/06 17:50:44 EDT |
|
Rob it depends on the taper you use and whether its tapered in two axes or just one and how efficiently you hammer it out etc. I take a piece of play dough, work it out to the final shape that I want, trim off any excess and then roll it up and work it out to the cross section of the I'll be starting with. |
| adam - Saturday, 07/08/06 18:58:58 EDT |
|
Volume vs. Length: Rob, That would most likely be SAE 5160 steel (MAYBE). The math is simple, the volume remains constant, simple ratios apply, less minor losses by fire scale. IF you reduce the 31" piece to 1/2 as thick OR 1/2 as wide it will be twice as long. 31/35.5 = .873% 2.25" * .873 = 1.96". To increase the length to 35.5" you need to reduce the width to a bit less than 2". To prove you math do the volume calculation. If you want to do it another way it is simple enough. |
| - guru - Saturday, 07/08/06 19:25:44 EDT |
|
Ah, good, just under 2" is just what I needed! Well, I was told that racing springs were 9160, a modified form of 5160. |
| - Rob - Saturday, 07/08/06 20:02:05 EDT |
|
I have a Sullivan Upsetter,and another ( called an Ingersol Rand drill sharpener ) does anyone have information on these? |
| - John Marotta - Saturday, 07/08/06 21:57:05 EDT |
|
Does any have any literature on Sullivan or IR upsetters/ Thanks! |
| - John Marotta - Saturday, 07/08/06 22:01:38 EDT |
|
John, Sullivan is also known as "SulAir" or Sullivan-Palatek and still makes portable air compressors. Their web site is http://www.palatek.com/ They re-organized in 1984 and may have little to say about the upsetter/hammer line. Ingersol Rand is the same Ingersol Rand that still makes air compressors http://www.ingersollrand.com/ Neither company makes these machines today but they MIGHT offer some help if you call them. However, it is doubtful. |
| - guru - Sunday, 07/09/06 08:42:42 EDT |
|
Lincoln Anvil ebay 270003781640 Thought this would give you guys and gals some giggles. |
| - Burnt Forge - Sunday, 07/09/06 08:50:55 EDT |
|
Paymeister I don't think anyone has taken on your queastion. I will give it a whirl. Abana has a little over 5000 members including professionals and hobbiest. The actual number is only a guess as many folks do not know about Abana or are not interested in any affiliation with any Blacksmithing group for whatever reason if any. There has been a huge increase in interest of forging over the last several years with new folks giving it a try all the time. My WAG is maybe 10,000. |
| - Burnt Forge - Sunday, 07/09/06 09:02:18 EDT |
|
Paymeister This was just my guess for the USA |
| - Burnt Forge - Sunday, 07/09/06 09:04:19 EDT |
|
Burnt Forge: Anvil would be of the era anyway. According to Postman's Mouse Hole Forge they used that particular logo from about 1820-1835. A. Lincoln was born in 1809. Sort of an authentic bill of sale rest is somewhat speculation. I rather doubt anyone is going to pay $75K for it. |
| Ken Scharabok - Sunday, 07/09/06 10:55:03 EDT |
|
Not so sure. . . The earlier anvils didn't have a pritchel hole. This one does. The later M&H logo with pritchel holes start in 1854, Thomas died in 1851 (was supposed to be his anvil). The only difference is the word "Forge" in the later logo. Even if it is of the correct era the whole providence has holes in it big enough to drive a truck through. |
| - guru - Sunday, 07/09/06 12:18:38 EDT |
|
See Mouse Hole Forge, page 62, "...Later anvils had "C&A Mouse Hole" (Cockshutt & Armitage). These do not have the pritchel hole (the little round hole in the heel of anvils) as do the earlier "Mouse Hole" anvils. The pritchel became common all anvils after about 1830. I have also recorded over ten "M&H, (Morgan & Henry) Armitage - Mouse Hole" anvils without the pritchel, and these date after about 1816, but before 1830. ..." According to the book those which only say "Mouse Hole" date 1725-1780. The above paragraph applies some of those did indeed have pritchel holes. Pritchel holes apparently become standard about 1830, but earlier anvils did apparently have them as a stock item. |
| Ken Scharabok - Sunday, 07/09/06 12:35:06 EDT |
|
Lincoln Anvil: Hummm....$75,000 dollars and they can't afford a professional photographer? By the way, I have the original Forge from Valley Forge if anyone is interested. |
| quenchcrack - Sunday, 07/09/06 14:12:29 EDT |
|
I'm interested to know if modern day blacksmiths use electric forges, not just gas. Thank you for taking your time answering my question. |
| - Charles - Sunday, 07/09/06 15:24:59 EDT |
|
Electric Forges: Charles, generaly not. Some industrial shops use induction furnaces to heat billets and heat treaters use electric furnaces because they are easiest to control. However, for small and general forging gas and coal forges are are the most common and the most economical. At one time there used to be resistance heaters for metal work but the KW requirements are HUGE. They also made electric resistance rivet heaters. In both the work was heated directly by the electric current passing through it. AND at one time the was a brief experiment with what was called the LaGrange-Hoho water pail forge. This also takes a huge amount of KW and runs on over 200 volts DC. Very dangerous. . . |
| - guru - Sunday, 07/09/06 16:11:18 EDT |
|
Pritichel Holes: I have also seen them drilled and punched in earlier anvils as well as a small 1/2" hardy hole resized by drifting out to over 1". Made a mess of the underside of the heel. So you never know. . . But far too many years passed before anyone considered this and item of importance. And indeed, Thomas Lincoln may have owned this anvil as he had a number of farms. But he was not a smith and there is not even a suggestion that Abraham Lincoln would have learned the trade on this anvil even if it was part of his father's property. A very curious piece of property at best. Providence by word of mouth can be a very strange thing and is generaly no proof at all when famous personages are involved. One of my great great grandmother's maiden name was Elizabeth Wilson. Family lore had it that she was related to presiden Woodrow Wilson. The folks in the family that said this were grand children that knew Elizabeth. When I researched the Woodrow Wilson family tree his father was one of something like 7 brothers that were ALL generals in the Civil war. One of them had a daughter that could have possibly been the right age and the story LOOKED very good. We had the Woodrow Wilson genealogy with an Elizabeth the right age and nothing else known about her and we had OUR Elizabeth Wilson that was supposed to be related to President Woodrow Wilson. They were even in the right state. So much for direct knowledge by several generations of word of mouth. . . we found Elizabeth's parents via her birth record. NO RELATION to Woodrow Wilson. THE END. Take the famous "Gretna Green" anvil. Lots of photos of THE anvil. . every wedding chapel in the area has an old anvil with a placque that states it is THE Gretna Green anvil. . . |
| - guru - Sunday, 07/09/06 16:34:13 EDT |
|
Well folks after 7 years of doing this as a hobby and turning into a small business I am now doing this fulltime. I make martial arts weapons from wood and steel and using various designs from the authemtic to the self created. With this in mind I am getting ready to open a HUGE shop of about 6000 sq. ft. We will be purchasing a Big Blu QC 155. The next thing I will need is a source for a commercial forge. I am in search of an electric model since none of the gas companies in my area will install a large gas tank for the smaller hobbyist portable type of forges. Apparently there is some question as to whether the units like the whisper Daddy 3 are certified and the gas companies refuse to hook up to them with a larger tank. In any case those types of forges are waaaayyy too small for our purposes of larger production runs. Can anyone direct me to a source for larger commercial type forges or at least someone that I can talk to about about them? I would like to find someone that might have an electric induction furnace instead of a traditional gas or coal forge to alleviate the problem of dealing with propane gas companies. Does anyone know of such a place? Please Email me information at info@budoweapons.com Thanks! Ed Green Budo Weapons http://www.budoweapons.com |
| Ed Green - Sunday, 07/09/06 19:42:35 EDT |
|
Ed Green: Contact Grant Sarver of Off Center forge, the maker of the Off Center tongs. Grant is now selling a reasonably small induction heater that will handle up to about 1-1/4" bar stock, I think. Grant is using one for his tong making and is very impressed with it. You can probably get to Grant by going through Kayne & Sons Blacksmith's Depot, an Anvilfire advertiser. Use the drop down menu on the upper right of this screen and go to "Advertisers". |
| vicopper - Sunday, 07/09/06 20:29:43 EDT |
|
Ed Green, Induction lends itself to production forgeing like no other heat source. One does need to consider the size of the runs. If you will do repeats of the same runs on a regular basis, Making diferent coils for each job is a good idea. Once the parameters are know from trial and error, than note that setting and coil set up etc in a data base (can be a note book) Different configerations of billit will take different times and settings on the machine, and will take some trial and error, so save the info. One place where induction falls down is on multiple heats where the shape of the forging changes alot. In the industry I have worked, one heat to finish. If a second heat was required, often we would do the entire run than change the set up and run the second operation. If you start to see some wierd holes in the stock after heating, that look like little volcano's, that is a current density problem, and needs coil tweeking. In our local induction is mUCH less expensive than gas. Note that we have about the cheapest comercial electric rate in the country. We ran a gas forge when the induction was down on one line only, and the gas bill for 2 shifts for a month was $30,000, but the drop in the electric bill was perhaps $4000. This was a BIG forge. Six 3/4" orifice burners at 20psi will run thru some gas. Good luck |
| ptree - Sunday, 07/09/06 21:10:49 EDT |
|
Induction: I've been on a bit of a bender recently, learning as much as I can about induction furnaces. What I can't get a handle on is the kind of power required to get a uniform heat through smallish stock (ie ~ 1/2 inch). I can find huge industrial melting furnaces, and small high-frequency case hardening furnaces but have read nothing about furnaces suitable for forging. ptree, could you give a few details on the kind of setup you used? Also, is it safe to hold the end of stock that is partially within the coils - I say yes, but a friend suggests there will be a charge buildup at the extremities. Finally, I have an idea which might be suitable for induction furnaces suitable for forging. The idea is to create a magnetic path around the outside of the coil that clamps directly onto the stock at the front and back of the coil, effectively ensuring most of your magnetic energy is localised to the stock within the coils. Think 3 'C' shapes from one end of the coil, around the outside, to the other end. They come together to clamp the stock at each end like a 3-jaw chuck. These would need to have high magnetic permeability and not generate eddie currents to prevent them overheating. Anyway, I would be very interested to know more about smaller induction forges. Andrew |
| andrew - Sunday, 07/09/06 22:24:51 EDT |
|
Johnson gas forges could get quite large and are "commercial" certified units. Thomas |
| Thomas P - Sunday, 07/09/06 23:29:48 EDT |
|
Induction Heating: Its all quite high tech, stuff for an electrical engineer. On the other hand as I mentioned direct resistance heating has been used in the industry and I am not sure why it is not used here. The power supply must be very heavy duty but so is the supply for industion heating. The difference is that for resistance heating the power supply can be nothing more than a big transformer. NO fancy high frequency, no special coils and it works on odd shaped work. As I mentioned, I've seen old ads for resistance rivet heaters. They simply had two copper contacts that clamped down on the rivet under foot pressure. Insert rivet, press peddle and in about 1 second it was hot. I've seen film of a similar setup used in the restoration of the Statue of Liberty. One of the armature bars (2/3 x 3 I think) and over 5 feet long had cable attached with heavy duty ground type clamps, the power was turned on and in seconds the entire length of the bar was hot. The only limitation I can see to this is that it is VERY fast and may use a much higher current than induction heating. But in the end energy is energy and the total bill should be the same. The equipment used is most likely a very large welder power supply. . . (article below says power regulation is required - this could increase the heating time thus lower the total instantaneaous KW capacity needed). A study by the Center for Metals Fabrication claims it is more economical than induction heating, the equipment is less expensive AND selected areas of a piece can be heated (greater flexibility). There IS a practical limit on billet cross section that probably limits its use to small to medium sized manufacturers (1.5" diameter). They also say it is a very effective way to heat salt baths. . http://www.p2pays.org/ref/10/09003.pdf |
| - guru - Sunday, 07/09/06 23:59:27 EDT |
|
Resistance Heating: At the plant there was a machine called the "Hot Upset" This machine heated a steel bushing and esentially riveted it into the workpiece by upsetting a head on 1 end, the other end had a head from the beginning. This part was the ball joint bushing on the '80s Ford 4wd front suspension arm. The bushing was a good sized chunk of metal, about 1 3/4" diameter body with about a 2 1/4" diameter head. All these figures are from memory 15-20 years ago, so might not be acurate. The amperage requirements were astronomical. Amperage was many, many thousands, but voltage was quite low. 200KVA seems to stick in My mind. The output was rectified in a huge bank of diodes. My guess is it was rectified so 3 phase could be used in the transformer primary, but it might have been necessairy to the process as well. The contact plates were made of a berrilium copper alloy used for resistance welding contacts. They wore out quickly from the heat and pressure, as hydraulic power upsetthe bushing between the contacts, not as a seperate operation with tool steel dies. |
| Dave Boyer - Monday, 07/10/06 04:31:19 EDT |
|
hello all, looking for a good steel comparison chart so i can determine which US steels relate to British steel specs. Any ideas. |
| David - Monday, 07/10/06 06:15:54 EDT |
|
Alloy Interchange: David, That is not a simple task. There are several sources for such infomartion. Woldman's Alloys of the World is the encylopedic reference for such things. It is one of those 4" thick books with fine print. . . It is rather unweildly and I find difficult to use but it is suppossedly THE reference. The current title I found was Worldwide Guide to Equivalent Nonferrous Metals and Alloys. I think the version I have had both ferrous and non-ferrous alloys. The book I use a lot but does not have British or "off shore" designations is Metals and Alloys in the Unified Numbering System. It is a joint publication of ASTM and SAE. It has interchanges between the common U.S. designations, AA, ACI, AISI, AMS, ASME, ASTM, AWS, CDA, Fed Specs, MIL, SAE "J" and Common Trade Designations. It is about a 3/4" thick reference and the last time I used Woldman's I had to use this as well. Both are published by ASM International. They may have what you are looking for on their web site. www.asm-intl.org They also list the Germam tri-lingual Stahlschlussel (Key to Steel) which is primarily an interchange book and much less expensive than Woldman's. |
| - guru - Monday, 07/10/06 07:53:13 EDT |
|
Resistance Upsetting: There is a relatively common machine called a stud welder that does a similar job but generally on a much scale. These weld studs to plate creating an upset at the joint. You have probably seen them and not known how they were attached. Most commonly you will see them in electrical panels but also on automobile panels. |
| - guru - Monday, 07/10/06 08:06:47 EDT |
|
are cirdular saw blades, like sawmill saws, of enough carbon content to temper? brian |
| briantigit - Monday, 07/10/06 09:01:37 EDT |
|
Just an aside on resistance heating: My old buzzbox welder manual gave instructions on how to thaw frozen water pipes by clamping the ground at one end of the frozen section and the stinger at the other, then turning on the juice at low amperage. The trick was apparently knowing when to turn it off. I notice that modern welder manuals do not impart this information. Something about liability and natural selection, no doubt... |
| Alan-L - Monday, 07/10/06 09:03:20 EDT |
|
Circular Saws: Brian, Yes they are. Quite a few knife makers started out using saw blades for material. Note the following: 1) Junk Yard Steel Rules Apply 2) Blades with add-on teeth may be a medium carbon steel but not nearly as high carbon as those with the teeth made of the blade material. |
| - guru - Monday, 07/10/06 10:29:47 EDT |
|
Have you got any avice on reducing costs of welding and fabrication of gates and railings? |
| mark - Monday, 07/10/06 10:36:17 EDT |
|
Well folks good info on all sources of forges. I have spoken with Johnson today and decided to go wqith their double length 133. In our area gas and electric aren;t much different energy wise. I do want to stick with something that I am familiar with which is gas. I don;t want to have to hire and elcetrical engineer to run my forge :-) The gas over all for my opinion is the better way to go for control over something I am familiar with. I spent several months resaerching the kind of forge I wanted to use when I started htis whole thing as a hobby and I would hate to have wasted all that time in resaerching something that I would have to discard. Stupid reasoning? Maybe? price of forges- big difference. I say go with Gas for me. Thanks all for your input to this very important question for my business. Wish us luck!! Ed Green Budo Weapons |
| Ed Green - Monday, 07/10/06 11:23:51 EDT |
|
Efficiency: Mark, For welding if you are already using MIG and a CO2/Argon mix there is little you can do other than improve your work handling efficiency. Many shops struggle to handle work by hand or work in cramped spaces. Having convienent bench heights with small electric hoists on either a mono rail or jib crane is very helpful. Often in production situations the MIG welder is hung overhead either in a stationary position or on a jib crane to make it most convienient to the work and to reduce cable dragging and positioning time. On my heavy welding bench I have a permanent ground cable and a short cable and clamp that runs from the connection to the work. If you forget to hook up the ground the bench usualy takes care of it. When this bench gets setup in my next shop the ground cable going to it will be burried in the floor to reduce trip hazzards. In a local shop the owner insists that there are NO cable, cords, or air hoses running across the floor. They use cable reels hanging from the ceiling trusses for everything. This makes the shop much neater, safer and you don't need to clear out the myrid cables anytime you move a cart load of steel or a forklift through the shop. It increases shop efficiency by keeping cords and hoses at the ready and the workers do not need to search for them (or constantly move them). The same shop has outlets on benches with the wire running under the floor. Many ove these are late additions and are in a simple trench in the floor that is either covered with a plate or patched. When I built my shop I put in a mezzanine for the purpose of having a platform for building tall stairs and such. There is a monorail hoist that runs from the shop floor over the mezzanine. The shop ceilings are 16 feet. This sounds high but you can never have enough height. Even with this height it has been difficult on occasion to lift loads of/on trucks. Cutting Stock: The most efficient way to cut bar stock is with an ironworker or shear. These machines are fast and operate for years without needing the blades sharpened or replaced. The most efficient way to cut pipe and tubing is with a good cutoff bandsaw or cold saw. The most efficient way to cut plate is with a plasma torch. In all cases of torching work by whatever method some kind of mechanization makes for clean cuts that reduce cleanup by hand grinding. Grinding/Cleanup: In many shops the sound of angle grinders is constant. This is one of your most costly operations as it is labor intensive. Reducing grinding reduces costs. There are many ways to reduce grinding. 1) Quality of cuts. Hand torching almost always requires expensive hand grinding. A track torch, circle cutter, simple guides OR subing out cutting are methods of improving cut quality. If a cut surface requires extensive grinding then the worker needs more training OR you need to find a better method. 2) Quality of welds. Good welds can be left as-is in most cases. Welds that require grinding or patching are a problem. Many fabricators make ugly joints than grind them or patch them. Find a better way. When tapered bars meet and flow together they can be made the the lazy expensive way OR they can be made right which costs less in the long run. Rough forged tapers can be welded together and reduce the grinding by much more than the forging time AND produce better results. Proper weld preps can do the same. Grinding weld preps so that welds are flush or near flush is easier than grinding the weld afterwards. Welds can also be covered by decorative elements or collars. Reducing grinding time will reduce overall job costs and makes for a cleaner quieter shop. Proper Tools: Many people do not look at how much their labor is costing them and how much more efficient the proper tools will make them. Even if the cost of the tool vs. the labor is break even if you reduce time then you could be doing ANOTHER job. Proper tools often improve the quality of the job as well. Tools include everything from the proper storage places (tool chests) for efficiency, to a fork lift. Components: A big part of the railing industry uses premade components. In the blacksmiths world this has been a dirty word. However, components have been getting much more sophisticated and the variety lets you assemble jobs that have a very custom look. Many smiths that do all custom work are also now arc welding the work together so there is little difference between the two tyoes of work. On the same note many of the high quality components are made by hand and shipped from one side of the globe to the other. Component Costs must be carefully considered as the quality level increases. Some of the best are being made in German shops where the costs of operation is just as high as here. If you are doing a job that requires hundreds of a specific component you MAY be able to make it cheaper in your own shop. However, you also need to consider the training and shop time. But in many cases it is becoming more cost effective to buy the specialty machines and make the components than to import them. This is something you will have to carefully consider. |
| - guru - Monday, 07/10/06 12:05:26 EDT |
|
US / UK steel spec comparisons, David, Most steel stockholders in the UK will post you a comparison chart FOC if you give them a bell (just kid on your costing up a job, and intend to buy of them eventually!), cromwell tools do a small 'engineers reference handbook' (the REF' which has all the steel specs in the back, and its free! |
| - John N - Monday, 07/10/06 13:54:09 EDT |
|
Kayne and Sons is carrying Grant's neat little induction unit. They had one on display at ABANA (but not plugged in, unfortunately). I've only heard one story about thawing pipe with an arc welder. Apparently lengths of buried pipe thaw better when they haven't had a section of PVC spliced into the middle! |
| Mike B - Monday, 07/10/06 20:10:36 EDT |
|
I'm haveing no luck in finding the book on "locks" you evaluated. Reference Locks from Iran. Pre Islamic To twentith Century, etc. etc. I've tried Abe books useing title, authors (Parviz Tanavoli and John T Wertime), etc. With no luck. Any search helps welcome. |
| - old trail - Monday, 07/10/06 20:14:16 EDT |
|
Hi i'm new to blacksmithing and i would be very gratfull if i could get some help. I would like to start by saying that my dad is a farrier and i'm learning everything i can from him, but he doesent know how to make damascus blades; I have a friend that does damascuss and he is teaching me in exchange for me teaching him the martail arts style that i know. I read part of your sword making article and yes i do need a blade for my martial arts training. No one i know knows how to forge what i need. I need to make a pair of chinese double ring daggers and a crestant moon spear head. If you could give me advice on making them or tell me were i can buy the books, or any special tools i need to buy i would be very gratefull. I do realise how many years it will take me to learn, any help will be appritiated. josh |
| - Josh - Monday, 07/10/06 21:10:15 EDT |
|
Ed Green, I suspect for short runs the gas will work out well for you. It really does not take an electrical engineer to set up an induction machine. It does take someone who can think through each change and who has a basic understanding of the principles. Gas is simpler to set up. |
| ptree - Monday, 07/10/06 21:24:00 EDT |
|
Practice Blades: Josh, There is a big difference between true Japanese blades or reproduction blades and practice weapons. Practice weapons should be made of a high grade of very tough steel. SAE 4140 or SAE 4150 are good grades for such things. Various martial arts groups often have rules on hardness. What you want is a tough unbreakable blade to prevent acidents. The only time full hardness blades are used is in cutting demonstrations. So what you want to make is a blade in those styles from a modern steel properly heat treated to be springy and very tough but not so hard as to be brittle. The book list you need is linked to our article on swordmaking. Be sure to read all our reviews on those covered. It starts with basic metal working texts, general blacksmithing texts, general bladesmithing and then specialty bladesmithing. I highly recommend starting with the Metalwork Technology and Practice (old or new). It includes details on subjects you will need to know for any type of metalworking including bladesmithing. As to tools you go many routes. Our Getting Started article lists some basic tools. However, for bladesmithing grinders are very important. You can shape blades the slow hard way like the traditional Japanese bladesmith ( a good skill to know) OR you can let small relatively inexpensive motors speed things up 10:1. Our newest book review on Step-by-step Knifemaking has a link to a book that has grinder designs and bladesmithing equipment and to a grinder design that is simple to build IF you have metalworking skills. Step-by-step Knifemaking discusses many types of grinders as well. The answers to all your questions on this subject are probably in the list of books. If you work through them in the order they are listed it would make a pretty decent course on bladesmithing. What disappoints me is that our Swordmaking article has been accessed 80,000 times but the Swordmaking RESOURCES page has only been accessed 20,000 times. . . Hopefully folks have printed it out. . but I doubt it. It took more time to compile that list and write the book synopses than the rest of the article. I am gradually writing reviews of all the books listed which meant obtaining a few books I did not have like The Craft of the Japanese Sword. A very good book, by the way. But as much detail as it has, you really NEED to study those that come before it in the list. The reviews linked to that list represent years of reading and several months of labor just producing the reviews. All the books on that list with the exception of the ASM engineering references AND including the expensive Advanced Damascus Patterning DVD could be purchased for about $500 to $600 total. Not bad for what would be a full degree course in the subject of bladesmithing. The first two books in our list have everything you need to do what you want. The rest are required to become adequately educated in the field. |
| - guru - Monday, 07/10/06 23:54:04 EDT |
|
Pipe Thawing: My dad and I did it one time with a Forney Farm Welder, we borowed the one We used as We didn't have Ours yet. Th manual says to use 120-140 amps for up to 100' of 1/2 or 3/4 pipe, 160-170 if longer. Presurized lines clear much faster than unpresurized lines,suposedly the vibratin caused by the AC helps. Steel pipe clears faster than copper. The manual also recomends putting a length of bare #10 copper wire inside plastic, clay, or un pressurized lines before winter, and hooking up to the ends to thaw. Lincoln and Hobart both offered a unit for thawing pipes with engine drive welders. These units are a metal box that houses an amp meter and a fuse link for the protectin of the machine. |
| Dave Boyer - Monday, 07/10/06 23:57:49 EDT |
|
Old Trail, I HAD two copies of Locks from Iran. If I find my second copy I'll make you deal. It may take a while. . I've moved and many of my books are packed. The trick to finding rare books is to try ABE or bookfinder at least every two weeks, sometimes for months. As books come out of collections or libraries they pass through the on-line stores, sometimes quickly. |
| - guru - Tuesday, 07/11/06 00:48:59 EDT |
|
what is the best way to get rust and pitting on an iron piece? |
| rick - Tuesday, 07/11/06 09:16:42 EDT |
|
Hello Gurus, Is there any advantage of a power hacksaw over a bandsaw? Hacksaws seem so archaic and slow, I only see ancient dust covered things whenever I visit an equipment auction, But I wonder if they were the only available thing prior to the ability to making a flexible lasting metal cutting blade for a bandsaw. |
| - Mike - Tuesday, 07/11/06 10:00:21 EDT |
|
Rust Removal: Rob, It depends on the results you want. To remove pitting and make a piece shiney and smooth requires reducing the entire surface to below the pitting. If you need a smooth surface then this is done with a grinder or files and sandpaper or just sandpaper. I usualy do this by hand and use an 80 to 120 grit cloth backed abrasive folowed by 180 to 240 grit 3M Wet-or-dry. Water or fine oil like kerosene helps the abrasive last longer. To remove all over rust and effect the surface the least a chemical rust remover like Naval Jelly works (follow direstions). However, I always get lots of discoloration with this and still need to use and abrasive. Fine Wet-or-dry and steel wool help. The result will be clean but the pits will still be there. If you are cleaning for painting then sandblasting or a chemical etch will remove rust and clean out pitting. However the overall surface will be given a fine grainy finish. For complicated shaped objects you can use an electrolisis method. However, this cleans out pitting perhaps increasing it while removing th rust. Although good for odd shapes hollows will not be cleaned. I've used every immaginable method and always come back to elbow grease, abrasives and oil. On machined cast iron surfaces like machine tools ways I use a scraper on a dry surface to remove the thick rust, then Scotch-brite and WD-40 followed by 320 grit 3M Wet-or-dry. On hard steel or plated surfaces I use the Scotch-brite and oil followed by 3M Wet-or-dry. Once in a while a file is necessary and on really heavy rust a power sander may be needed. It took the better part of a day to remove the heavy rust from a band saw table using a belt sander and wet sanding. If the piece is an antique the rust removal should be carefully considered. Generaly you do not clean antiques more than what a soft rag will do. Fine dry steel wool can be used to remove loos rust but tight rust is part of the antiquity. More antiques including old tools are ruined by over zealous rust removal than any other reason. |
| - guru - Tuesday, 07/11/06 10:00:35 EDT |
|
Little known shop hazard: Do not place your handweb on the turnknob while dropping the rod after turning on a vise... yeah, I just did that. MAN it hurts! Pinched my skin like a mofo, you wouldn't think the stops on the rod would be heavy enough to do that.... Sunny and warm on the banks of the Neshaminy Creek |
| - Nippulini - Tuesday, 07/11/06 10:09:57 EDT |
|
Power Hacksaws: Mike, These are still manfactured and are great machines. They have advantages and disadvantages as do all machines. They are more rigid and generaly cut straighter than a band saw of the same class. They use a heavy blade for the same purpose. The stiff blade alows a higher feed rate than a bandsaw but also means they do not work well on thin or odd shaped pieces. The blades can also be much harder than a band saw blade thus they are better for cutting many alloy steels. They are also easier to replace. http://www.peerlessusa.com/hacksaws.htm Marvel used to be a popular brand but they only make band saws now. |
| - guru - Tuesday, 07/11/06 10:13:22 EDT |
|
Vise Pinch: Nip, That is actually a WELL KNOWN shop hazzard. To reduce the problem as well as noise in the shop put a rubber panel grommet on each end. This will reduce the possible pinch, reduces the mushrooming which sharpens the hole in the screw (making pinching worse), AND it reduces shop noise. Thank Steve Kayne for that one. He gave me a couple grommets for that purpose 25 years ago and they are still on my vises. |
| - guru - Tuesday, 07/11/06 10:18:30 EDT |
|
Hi, I'm designing a backyard fireplace and I'd value any advice I could get. After smithing part time for seven years I've learned that what appears simple (ie. smoke goes up) is quite complicated. And a side draft forge is a remarkable piece of engineering. My idea for an outdoor fireplace is to use a side draft forge and cement limestone rocks around it. What hazards should I watch for? For example will the rocks explode if they get to hot? Thanks for the help. Dan |
| Dan - Tuesday, 07/11/06 11:20:44 EDT |
|
Thanks Guru, I'l try that. I actually like my shop noises, makes me feel alive and know that work is being done. None of my neighbors tell me otherwise, they can't even hear me. Now, I made a branding iron for my dad for Fathers day. He smokes fish and wanted the iron to put his name on his food. On Sunday we were barbecuing and we figured we'd try it out. We put the iron on the fire for a while, pressed it into the fish. The brand made indents on the fishes flesh, but it didn't make a visible charred mark. Should the iron be a visible color prior to branding? I even put a torch to it a couple times to no avail. Dan's BBQ post made me remember about that. |
| - Nippulini - Tuesday, 07/11/06 11:52:07 EDT |
|
Induction and resistance heating both generate the heat within the bar itself, making them relatively efficient. While resistance heating IS simpler, it is pretty limited in it's possible applications. Resistance heating is generally done at lower voltages than you get from a welding machine. It works best at very low voltages which requires very secure clamping of TWO power leads EVERY TIME you want to take a heat. This worked well on the Statue project. Poor clamping results in arcing pockets in the work just like the ground clamp of a welder (times 10). In resistance heating it is near impossible to heat the end of a bar. Resistance heating can only be used with a uniform cross-section as the thinnest section will heat way faster, even melting before larger sections heat at all. Almost impossible to take a heat after you've done some forging. For heating in the blacksmith shop I think resistance has pretty limited use. Indution has none of those limitations. Yes I sell induction units and they will soon be available from Kayne & Son/Blacksmith Depot. |
| - grant - Tuesday, 07/11/06 12:23:32 EDT |
|
Fireplace: Dan, the side draft principle should work work for a firplace but you will not get the same effect. A fireplace heats by radiant effect of the flame. If you such it up into the stack you won't get much heat. . On steel hooded fireplaces the front hood gets hot and radiates heat, so you want it exposed. I'm sure there is something "different" that you want. I would mock it up with tack welded sheet and test it first. Note that limestone is not a good material for heat resistance. It will spall or break down from heat. So you do not want it directly exposed to the fire. The hot Steel will expand a LOT compared to the cold stone. If you build tightly around the steel the heat will expand it and break many of your joints. The steel parts need to "float" in the masonry. Good masons often use pieces of wood at the end of lintle bars to five them something to compress. Legs or offsets need to be able to float in a hole or on a surface. Stacks need to be able to rise up and down in the masonary. |
| - guru - Tuesday, 07/11/06 12:36:57 EDT |
|
Branding Fish: Nip, I think you were trying to brand the wrong kind of meat. I suspect the burnt fish was sticking to the brand. Try it on steak. Yes it needs to be quite hot but lying in the coals SHOULD do it. Branding a school of fish before the round up. . . I thought you had gotten out of show biz! |
| - guru - Tuesday, 07/11/06 12:39:35 EDT |
|
Induction, being a non-contact heating method is important too. The magnetic field generated gives a "heating zone" much like other blacksmith forges. Delicate leave can be heated as easily as bars. Using a short coil allows you to get a very short, intense heat too. Using a short coil you can take a short heat, or just slide the bar back and forth through the coil for a longer heat. Forge welding is really easy in the induction too. I just hold four bars of 3/8 together in my hand, heat for 5 seconds (red), flux, reheat to welding heat (20 seconds) and weld. |
| - grant - Tuesday, 07/11/06 12:55:15 EDT |
|
JOCK;Bulldogging the fish and holding them down is relatively easy, compared to keeping the fire lit and the iron hot. "Git along, little dogfish." |
| - 3dogs - Tuesday, 07/11/06 13:03:54 EDT |
 Grant Sarver Induction Forge Heater  |
| - guru - Tuesday, 07/11/06 13:50:08 EDT |
|
To get rusting and pitting on a piece of iron---just install it in a worn marble floor near a sea shore... Actually just doa search on rusting as that topic gets covered at least eavery other week on this forum. Thomas |
| Thomas P - Tuesday, 07/11/06 14:22:03 EDT |
|
In the above pictures the tong end is about 1/2 X 1-1/4 and I get a forging heat in 14 seconds. The 1/2 square bar X 9 inches heats in about 25 seconds. there is no shock hazard as the output voltage is around 20V. There is a grooved piece of ceramic in the coil supporting the long piece. Sure nice to have the forge right next to where the work is going on and not five feet away. |
| - grant - Tuesday, 07/11/06 15:01:03 EDT |
|
Besides the quick clean heating I would think that not having the constant roar of the forge and the waste heat in the area would be a big personal comfort benifit. |
| - guru - Tuesday, 07/11/06 16:41:30 EDT |
|
Hello, I'm looking for plans or pictures of quilt stands. Something "simple". preferable Amish, Mennonite or Shaker style. I've been checking E-bay but haven't had much success. Any ideas of where else to look ? |
| Ray - Tuesday, 07/11/06 16:59:46 EDT |
|
One more thing...I'll be making it out of steel, not wood. |
| Ray - Tuesday, 07/11/06 17:01:34 EDT |
|
How much will one of these Induction forges cost. looks like a pretty slick idea |
| BluSpecs - Tuesday, 07/11/06 17:16:14 EDT |
|
tiny torch: I got a good deal on a pair of small O & A tanks (safecrackers special) now I am shopping for a tiny torch for jewelry scale work. First on my list is to solder up several pairs of glasses. I am looking at the Smith Tiny Torch and the little Meco that the Tinman likes. I'd appreciate any advice or comments thanks |
| adam - Tuesday, 07/11/06 17:19:13 EDT |
|
Grant: If you send one of those induction heaters down herre, I'll test it for you, no charge. We have probably the highest electric rates in the entire U.S., around $0.30/kwh, or a bit higher with the levelized fuel adjustment cost add-on. If it works out to be economical, it'll be a great selling point, and you can write off trips to the Virgin Islands to set it up and later maintain it. You can't beat a deal like that, and it only costs you one little induction unit. A bargain at any price. (grin) |
| vicopper - Tuesday, 07/11/06 20:29:06 EDT |
|
You're right on there Guru! I have it right next to me when I'm forging, no more walking 5-6 feet back and forth to the forge. Actually I sit in a stool most of the time. When welding I've got the coil just a few INCHES from the anvil. The shop really stays cool in the summer, now I just gotta figure out what I'm gonna do come winter! BluSpecs: $3,695.00 for the machine, runs on 220 single phase, needs a 50 - 60 amp breaker. Guess I came down kinda hard on resistance heating, in the right application it would be great. But it is a lot more limited in it's uses. |
| - grant - Tuesday, 07/11/06 20:31:24 EDT |
|
Pinch hazzard, Yes this is well known, I learned when I was about 7 years old and I remember it very clearly EVERYTIME I even look at a vise. I dont know if they still do, Wilton vises have with heavy rubber washers pressed over the ends of the tommybar. As Guru mention, Its a simple and worthwhile for a variety of reasons. Every vise shoud have them, But even so, Always remember to keep your hands clear of the tommybar when letting off it. |
| - Sven - Tuesday, 07/11/06 21:13:56 EDT |
|
Adam-- Smith Little Torch (sic) is wonderful. Upside: a genuine oxy-acetylene flame smaller than the head of a match. The Managing Director used it to make the 1/12-scale leg vise and other tools for her miniature smithy a few years ago. There is a rosebud obtainable for heating little crucibles for casting, too. Carps: I wish they'd make a cutting torch. Unnecessarily hot for most silver brazing that I have done-- belt buckles, pill boxes, etc. For that, the Presto-lite with a big tip is fine. The joolrymaker's standby Hoke oxy-propane is in between in achievable temps, from what I have found. I have all three, and you are welcome to fall by, as we used to say back in the '50s, and test drive whenever. |
| Miles Undercut - Tuesday, 07/11/06 21:19:55 EDT |
|
Branding irons are at least red hot when cowboys do a roundup. |
| Miles Undercut - Tuesday, 07/11/06 21:25:36 EDT |
|
Adam-- keep in mind that with silver brazing, you are not just heating the teency joint you might be dealing with on a pair of specs. So rapidly does the heat move away from the flame in the material that the whole object has to be at the right temp to get the solder to flow. Viz. the old-time Navajo silversmiths doing their incredibly fine detail with a gasoline blowtorch! However, the guy who sold the Managing Director her Little Torch did in fact tell her she could solder an eyeglass frame-- with the lenses still in it. Uh huh. |
| Miles Undercut - Tuesday, 07/11/06 21:33:54 EDT |
|
Adam, I agree with MIles that an O/A torch, however small, is hotter thhan it needs to be for jewelry work. That said, for 99% of my silver/gold smithing I used an Airco O/A radiator repairman's torch. Way bigger than the Smith LittleTorch, but very manageable. Ya just gotta learn when to back off. With a #000 tip, it made a pretty small flame, and it *did* have a cutting head. In fact, it wasn't more than a coule of weeks ago I hauled it out and went through it, checking seals and such. Still all okay, after 35 years. I'm going to set it up at my jeweler's bench one of these days. I have a Prest-O-Lite and a half dozen different air/propane and air/NG torches, but I still prefer that little O/A. |
| vicopper - Tuesday, 07/11/06 21:37:24 EDT |
|
Vicopper, I learned to silver braze with a prest-O-Lite torch with far too big a tip, but it was all we had at the ARMY craft shop. The German master jewler that was teaching me would just shake his head and laugh. He used an alcohol blow pipe that was mouth blown. He did use a little torch for casting melts. I have used a simple propane torch for all my jeweler work since. I am searching for a little torch to complement the Airco safecrackers set with cutting head I obtained a few years back for $35 at a yard sale. |
| ptree - Tuesday, 07/11/06 22:03:32 EDT |
|
Induction Heating: Grant, I have a few questions about your machine. Could you shed any light on the need to create custom coils for different jobs? I noticed in your pictures you have long and short coils - is this in order to tune the inductance of the coil or simply to distribute the heat differently? Does your machine adaptively track the resonant frequency of the tank circuit (coil + internal capacitor) as the inductance changes - ie you change the coil, or as the billet heats & changes it's permeability? How warm do the coils get? It's widely known that using Litz wire greatly increases the efficiency of coils & I'm wondering if this would reduce the overall power requirements or at least negate the need for water cooling of the ocil. The required input current is much higher than I imagined - do you have any figures for the efficiency of the inverter, or the actual voltage/current supplied to the coil? Have you played with external (ie around the outside of the coil) flux paths at all? As a hack, it would be interesting to cut up a laminated transformer core to create two 'C' sections. These could go around the outside of the coil, and be clamped onto the billet at each end of the coil. I haven't done the maths, but I predict that this would give a massive boost to the coil effiency, not to mention greatly reducing EM radiation around the coils. Andrew ! /-!-\ | S!S | | S!S | \-!-/ ! ! Here is a side view of the external flux path. ! is the billet to be heated. S is a cut side view of the coils. The other bits are the external flux path, clamping directly onto the billet. |
| andrew - Tuesday, 07/11/06 22:14:02 EDT |
|
oops, I guess the spaces got stripped from my ascii art.... If you add leading spaces to line up all the !, you'll get the picture. |
| andrew - Tuesday, 07/11/06 22:15:05 EDT |
|
ptree, When I was teaching at the uni, I demonstrated, and made all my students learn, the use of a blowpipe. Either alcohol flame or a Bunsen burner, but they had to learn to control a blowpipe. I made 'em do a lot of things like that, so they would appreciate the more modern equipment and begin to understand the fundamental principles involved in the work. I think it helped them. I think your "safecracker's torch may very well be the same thing I'm calling a radiator repair torch. Just like a regular torch that was washed in way too hot a water and run through the dryer on hot? |
| vicopper - Tuesday, 07/11/06 22:30:04 EDT |
|
Andrew: Sounds like you have some knowledge in this area. 1) I make coils in 5 minutes, 1/4 inch copper tube, wind around a broom handle or whatever. 2) mostly for the heat pattern I want. You can use a short coil and moove the the part thru the coil to heat a longer length. Depends on how many parts you need to do if making a new coil is worth it. I usually make dedicated coils for my production. 3) Yes, the machine self-tunes to the resonant frequency of the tank circuit. 4) the coils do not get hot at all, they are water cooled. 5) Litz wire? I'll look into that. The major components of the machine are water cooled so not having to cool the coil would not save any. Besides tube coils are so quick and easy to fabricate. 6) Laminates are not effective at these frequencies. Ferrite powder mixed with epoxy is often used as a "flux concentrator". Just as with a gas forge though, we often trade efficiency for simplicity and convenience. I rarely use more than $0.40 per hour running this machine, thats a lot less than a gas forge. OBTW: The frequency of this machine 30-100 KHz. |
| - grant - Tuesday, 07/11/06 22:46:48 EDT |
|
Andrew: No, Litz or woven wire I've not seen used. The heating of the coil is not so much from it's own resistance (I squared R), but from the radiant heat given off by the part that is in the coil. |
| - grant - Tuesday, 07/11/06 22:52:52 EDT |
|
As Litz wire is insulated, I suspect that would burn off. |
| - grant - Tuesday, 07/11/06 22:56:20 EDT |
|
Thanks all for the comments. "Washed in hot water.." lol. I am not really going to make joolery. That was just a figure of speech. I am much too manly for that, plus my fingers are fat and calloused from hammer work and my eyesight is faded from too much .. hrmph!.. from being over 40. In anycase if I were to *accidentally* make some doll house furniture you guys would be the LAST to hear about it! But I do feel the need for a small OA torch. Perhaps its just an attack of toolitis. But if so its a fairly cheap siezure. Santa Fe Jewelry supply had a Smith Little Torch w 5 tips and hoses for $106. And if Miles says it's a good tool - must be so. I must check Oppi Untrecht' book on using a blowpipe. Not sure how the poison darts fit in with sliver jewelry but theres a lot I dont understand. Thanks! |
| adam - Tuesday, 07/11/06 23:31:29 EDT |
|
Grant: I'm a much better engineer than I am blacksmith;) though I work in wireless communications. Same thing, less current. If one was to use Litz wire, the coil would need to be set in refactory, or at least have an internal insulation sleeve. There are several related patents for furnaces. I guess I'm coming from a different direction. I'd like to get a handle on how much energy needs to be carried by that magnetic field. From there, I wonder if a more efficient inverter/coil, speciflcally designed for forging as opposed to melting/case hardening can be designed. That's why I'm trying to understand specifically how much current & at what voltage goes through that coil.... There are several interesting hobby investigations: http://www.richieburnett.co.uk/indheat.html Also "Sam's LASER FAQ" has some investigations into induction heating, Telsa coils and associated power supplies. For example, I see that your coils have a large gap between each turn. Obviously this is required to stop them shorting, but it's bad in terms of the coupling between adjacent turns. Using Litz wire would also allow for increased coil density since it's insulated. |
| andrew - Tuesday, 07/11/06 23:42:44 EDT |
|
Induction forge heater.... I want one. |
| - Nippulini - Wednesday, 07/12/06 07:58:58 EDT |
|
Andrew, I think the simplified tubular coils are the point in themselves. Coils on ceramic tubes, wires embedded in refractory. . special Litz wire connections are all the kind of picky labor intensive things that would kill a product like this OR every coil would have to be engineered and manufactured by someone else. Then it becomes a rather expensive industrial tool that would not suit the typical shop. The input is actually LESS than I imagined. Short heat up times means lots of energy. If you compare this to a dead short 12,000 watts is about right. Years ago we built an infrared heater for heating a 32" pump impeller. If I remember correctly it had twentyfour 2000 Watt bulbs. Talk about something you do not want to look at! A big contactor was used to turn it on and off and you could feel the current running through the cable like water. . . . The reason for the IR heating was that the job was pooly done the big rose buds in the past and resulted in spreading contamination as well as possible local overheating AND the hazzard of guys in head to toe anti-contamiation suits weilding big rosebuds. . . clowns with fire. . . Very scary (I HAD BEEN one of those clowns). The IR was fast, heated places you could not reach with a torch and was much safer. The whole thing was wired with speical high temperature teflon / fibreglass insulated nickle plated wire. Wires were organized with stips of fibreglass banding and where taped had special silicon rubber tape. Still makes me itch thinking about it. I had forgotten about this heater until the other day when I was looking up articles on resistance heating and there was one on IR heating in forge shops. The application is for preheating dies AND heating non-ferrous metals up to temperature. Looked a little like the unit I had built but with denser bulb spacing. . . The advantages were some of the same I listed above. No flame/contact, heating hard to reach places. |
| - guru - Wednesday, 07/12/06 08:18:15 EDT |
|
Just returned from the ABANA conference, and will forward some impressions later. Just a note on branding cattle. The iron, when in use, is approaching a black heat. It may at times be a faint red color in the dark, but not in the sunlight. I don't know about branding fish. |
| Frank Turley - Wednesday, 07/12/06 08:35:33 EDT |
|
Toys, toys, toys: Last night I saw a very ignorant and slanted news piece on electrolysis fuel generators (Hydrogen and Oygen). The advocate was saying the mixed gas (HH0) was absolutely stable!!!! What a dangerous idiot. the fellow was also pushing the "no CO2) angle without considering where the electricity came from (a coal or oil burning plant). But the unit was a very nifty toy that would give you gas welding capacity without cylinders. However, for cutting you need excess oxygen. . but there are generators for that too. Nifty toy in any case. I've also looked at the small portable plasma torches. Another nifty tool in the right place or application. These will cleanly zip through up to 3/8" steel plate running on dry air. Combine this tool with the electric HHO gas generator and you have gas welding and plate cutting capability. Now there is Grant's small shop induction heater. . . Between electric welding, plasma (electric) cutting, and electric heating we have a flameless electric blacksmith shop! |
| - guru - Wednesday, 07/12/06 09:53:01 EDT |
|
What is the best way to form gate tops ? |
| mark - Wednesday, 07/12/06 11:22:54 EDT |
|
Gate Tops? |
| - guru - Wednesday, 07/12/06 11:31:11 EDT |
|
Adam-- Jewelry-making is unmanly? Tell that to the Navajo and the Hopi. And, do you have any idea the kind of money people pay for hand-forged miniature ahrnwork? Hey-- I also happen to have here in my secret mountain laboratory a genuine... ta da!... blowpipe. Huff, puff! I would dearly love to see someone silver braze a brass belt buckle or even a smallish pill box with a blow pipe. Maybe how it works is, the piece gets heated up first in a forge and then the blow pipe just concentrates a few more BTUs on the join? Frank-- the branding irons I've seen sure looked to be glowing to me. The cows thought so, too. But maybe it was just the glare. Welcome back! |
| Miles Undercut - Wednesday, 07/12/06 12:05:53 EDT |
|
What is the best way to form the top rail of a bow top gate? At the moment i am using a flypress to slowley form the curve as rollers to roll 1/2 inch flat bar are hard to find second hand and are expensive to buy new and this is a slow process and needs two people. |
| mark - Wednesday, 07/12/06 12:47:57 EDT |
|
Mark, If you have a platen table (Acorn), you can do it using pins and a hydraulic jack or porto-power unit. Without a platen table though, the flypress is about as good a way as you're likely to find. Lots of control with plenty of force. |
| vicopper - Wednesday, 07/12/06 13:01:09 EDT |
|
Adam, Yeah, what Miles said. (grin) |
| vicopper - Wednesday, 07/12/06 13:02:03 EDT |
|
I bend 1/2" flat bar the hard way, and, of course, the easy way, all the time on my hossfeld bender- it has fixed radius dies, so you can get the exact same curve every time, or, for bigger radiuses, like the 30 foot radius I used for my carport, I just mark it every 6" with a sharpie, and bend on the marks. The "best way" is hard to define- I find the "best way" for me is either with my hossfeld, or my powered angle rolls, or my powered plate rolls, depending on the material, size of radius, and finish desired. But if you eliminate buying a real tool built to do the job from the "best way", then you get back to simple, slow, and cheap. Acorn tables cost at least as much as hossfeld benders, where I live. I bend stuff every day with the hossfeld. I have a plain steel top table, I weld fixtures to it, then grind em off when done. Weld 2 pins, made of at least 1" round, 2" would be better, 4" long, standing straight up. Find a big piece of pipe for a cheater bar. Mark your 1/2" flat every 1" with a sharpie or a silver pencil. Align the first mark with pin no. 2, use pin no. 1 to hold the unbent end of the bar. Apply pressure with cheater bar. Advance flat bar. Repeat. Best way? nope. Cheapest. yep. |
| ries - Wednesday, 07/12/06 13:35:00 EDT |
|
Manly Jewelry: I am proud to say that I not only make jewelry but wear my own work. Of course I use steel and forge my work, bench work and finish each piece, it ain't girly work. |
| - Nippulini - Wednesday, 07/12/06 15:04:52 EDT |
|
Arcing 1/2" Flat (by what width?): My old Champion tire bender will easily roll 1/2" x 3" to about a 18" circle (9" radius). It would roll 1/2" x 1" on edge OK and have a tough time doing 1/2" x 2" on edge. But flat is no problem. On this size stock a leg vice and three bending points will work. On a weld platten I would bend flat between two pins by hand and with bending forks and match an arc drawn on the platten. On edge on the platten two pins, two hold downs holding guides to slip the bar under and a long pry bar would do the job. OR a hydraulic jack as noted above. If I was making more than one, bending flat and did not have the Champion rolls I would make a bending jig from framing lumber attached to plywood. Remember that there is spring back and the radi on the wood will need to be a bit tighter than the work coming off of it. Lots of ways depending on the tools at hand. |
| - guru - Wednesday, 07/12/06 15:11:04 EDT |
|
SAY WHAT?? - "Between electric welding, plasma (electric) cutting, and electric heating we have a flameless electric blacksmith shop!" Please explain how do you combine 2 parts Hydrogen and one part Oxygen in gas welding without a flame? The superheated air in a plasma tourch may not be "a flame" it sure looks like one and it can set fire to combustables in the area. The arc in electric (arc) welding may not be "a flame" but it can set fire to combustable materials as can the sputterballs. The metal heated to welding temperature by induction is still at welding temperature, and the spray of sparks from the forge welding can ignite combustables. To say it is "a flameless electric blacksmith shop" may be technically true, but it can be just as dangerous as a shop with "real" flames. |
| - Ntech - Wednesday, 07/12/06 16:59:40 EDT |
|
Andrew, I have to strongly agree with Grant on coils for the induction heater. I have made coils for a small(to our shop) Tocco, and bending up a bit of tube and putting on end fittings is quick and cheap enough to allow making a new coil for every job that will benefit from a slightly different coil. I have also worked in several shops that did ceremic encapsulated coils, and they are a major PIA. Due to the thermal cycling of the metal inside the ceremic, and the vibration of the parts, they fail quickly. Also when they fail they are a PIA to rework as you have to chip out the hard ceremic from around soft tubes. Granted these were big production coils, but a $10,000 repair was common. Another issue is that with an encapsulated coil you have to remove the scale that pops off in the coil from time to time, where with an open coil it just drops out. I like the copper tubing for lower production shops. With the speed of induction heating, most blacksmiths will NEVER challenge to heater to keep up. It will be the other way around. With only needing a 60 amp breaker, there is actually very small electrical usage, as I would expect maybe a 5 to 10% on time in most small run operations. I really like the looks of the machine Grant is showing, and if I went full time, I would be looking VERY hard. |
| ptree - Wednesday, 07/12/06 18:24:08 EDT |
|
Miles Undercut, I watched Michael Koeff, a german master Goldsmith does many silver solder tasks on rings and bracelets with an alcholol blow pipe. They actually get very hot. Adam, unmanly to make jewelry? I would not say that very loudly around either of the Sarges on this site! BOG Vicopper and myself both were jewelers at one time. Do you not see that fine attention to detail in Rich's work? I however have rebelled at the fine work and now only make rough manly iron stuff BOG |
| ptree - Wednesday, 07/12/06 18:29:44 EDT |
|
Manly: I seem to have poked a tender spot here. Now I did not say it was "unmanly" to make jewelry. I said I was TOO manly. If you guys ... er... jewelers are *that way inclined* - hey there's nothing wrong with it. We live in enlightened tolerant times. In some states of its even legal for two jewelers to marry! I hope that clarification smooths everyone's feathers! |
| adam - Wednesday, 07/12/06 19:00:53 EDT |
|
What is "Bright Copper" as opposed to regular copper. everything i have found online is referring to something that appears to be polished. Is it a mix like brass or bronze. I snagged about 25 5"x12" plates of the stuff from work today they were gonna throw out. I have discovered the inner scrounger. chris |
| - chris r - Wednesday, 07/12/06 20:23:07 EDT |
|
Adam, You are the proud possessor of a truly sick mind. (grin) Actually, I did VERY manly silversmithing; mostly raised holloware and heavy forged details from stuff like 1/2" square bronze, etc. Oh, I actually did do a fair amount of fussy, picky, chased, engraved, filligree'd foo-foo jewelry too, but I won't admit to that anywhere real smiths might be listening. (grin) Thank you for allowing me to express myself. My feathers are much less ruffly now, thankyoueversomuch! |
| vicopper - Wednesday, 07/12/06 20:38:14 EDT |
|
ptree-- I didn't say I didn't think it could be done. (Diderot shows a guy using a blowpipe on a sizeable object.) I said I'd dearly love to see HOW it is done. Williamsburg has a video on silversmithing, but it demurely fades out before the smith solders the spout onto the big teapot, which is howcum I was watching the damned thing in the first place, to see that. It must be heated up close to the final soldering with a forge. I have a little foot-powered bellows that might be able to power up a flame to hot enough. Some day I'll try it on the slew of old copper teapots I have that got left on somebody's stove and lost their spouts. Manana. Adam-- take a drive over toward Second Mesa in Hopi land and see for yourself what the late, great Fred Kabotie set up by way of a silversmithing academy and observe who is working in it to teach and learn the craft. Ditto the Poeh Center in Pojoaque. Gender simply does not enter into this at all. |
| Miles Undercut - Wednesday, 07/12/06 21:44:56 EDT |
|
Discovering the Inner Scrounger: While at my father's in- laws old farm the other day, my inner scrounger came alive. Located an old shed and pile of "junk" destined for the scrap yard....hehehe. Items scrounged: tractor connecting rods, several near new hay rake teeth, various round and bar stock, large spikes twice the size of rr spikes, several new german steel sickle bar teeth, 2 nice c clamps , a HUGE(about 3 foot long) double open end wrench, and an old pair of box jaw style tongs. Sad thing is....I didn't have my Pickup for the large stuff!! And to think, I don't even have my forge built yet!!! |
| keykeeper - Wednesday, 07/12/06 22:02:48 EDT |
|
"Bright Copper". . . donno. Unless it happens to be plated steel. In that case there are hundreds of descriptive finishes. |
| - guru - Wednesday, 07/12/06 22:14:02 EDT |
|
Small A/O Torch: My Grandpop had a Purox aircraft style torch, a small A/O torch with front valves and a little cutting atachment good up to 2" acording to the specs. This is the size used for radiator work, and while maybee oversized for jewelry it is a sweet setup. It has 3 brazing tips with it, We did some sizable work with the biggest one, enough that You wished Your hand was further from the action. If I had another set of tanks I would hook it up. By the way, Purox/Prestolite is still arround, presently owned by ESAB as are some of the other Union Carbide brand names. |
| Dave Boyer - Wednesday, 07/12/06 22:23:44 EDT |
|
Flameless/fireless Blacksmith Shop: Using induction heating and resistance heating you can forge and weld without open flame. Thus the "fireless" blacksmith shop is possible. You can also heat treat and temper with the same. In fact resistance heating is the prefered method of heating salt baths. . . Grant's small shop induction heater opens some interesting doors, especially in places that restrict "open flames" specifically. Then you have plasma cutting which is "technically" not a flame (plasma is the fourth form of matter). Then again, the steel DOES burn. . . You would have a hard time convincing an insurance company ther is no flame. But it is not necessarily needed in the "flameless blacksmith shop". Just sure would be nice, along with a pocket LASER. . . The HHO electrolisis machine DOES use a flame but it is also not necessary in the flameless blacksmith shop. I should have listed that toy somewhere else. But it sure would be handy in a shop without conventional carbon based CO2 producing fuels. Between induction heating, plasma and HHO a truely CO/CO2 "clean" shop could be run off solar, wind or hydropower. Blacksmithing alive and well in the 22nd century! The future political climate may require it. Just because lightening strikes your home and it burns down doesn't mean you were playing with fire. It just means you are unlucky AND built with flamable materials. |
| - guru - Wednesday, 07/12/06 22:36:17 EDT |
|
I ordered a Chuck Robinson without the stand. I haven't gotten it yet. I was thinking about using Quicrete underneath it. How much force will the Quicrete be subjected to by wailing away at the anvil with a 5 pound hammer. Will it be strong enough, and not crack? Correct anvil height for me is 33.5". The anvil is 24" so it will have 9.5 inches of solid Quicrete below it sitting on a concrete floor. Here's a link to a picture of the anvil http://dfoggknives.com/Anvil.htm |
| - Tyler Murch - Wednesday, 07/12/06 22:43:15 EDT |
|
Cutting, Brazing and Soldering can all be done with flameless methods. Its, just that flame, plasma or LASER cutting is just SO handy and flexible in plate. But plate can be cold cut with shears and saws. Brazing and soldering can both be done by heating and "iron" which is usualy copper. Both the base metal and "iron" could be heated with induction heating. Not as convenient as a small pinpoint OA flame but possible. Technology is also changing. . . superheated inert gas could replace a flame. Hot air is used in "torches" to weld plastic. Why not hot argon for brazing and welding? A gas cylinder and a little heater built into the "torch". . . Another CO2 clean technology. Not needed today but possible. Look for it in the patent office and it has probably already been invented. |
| - guru - Wednesday, 07/12/06 22:48:51 EDT |
|
Tyler, Are you talking about a stand? The anvil shown in your link has an adjustable height stand. I don't see a weight or dimensions on your anvil. I estimate 110 to 150 pounds. . A little light for using a 5 pound hammer. If the "anvil" does not have the stand shown then you have too small a foot print to support directly on concrete. That is what the heavy plate on the stand is for. I am not a fan of Quickcrete. I've found that most of it is as lean as you can get which makes weak concrete. It also degrades rapidly in the bag reducing its end strength. When I am forced to use it I buy a seperate bag of Portland cement and add one or two shovel fulls to each bag of Quickcrete. If it must be hand mixed I prefer to make my own from raw matherials (Gravel, sand and portland cement). How well concrete holds up is determined by a lot of variables. The first is the theoretical strength based on components, then there is the quality of the mixing and placing. Poorly mixed or over watered, too thin, porosity. . . all make a big difference. Most people add too much water so it pours easily. THEN, the aging of concrete is important. It takes a year to achieve most of its full strength. A concrete "spacer" or stand would have to be high grade concrete. It would have to have the anvil load distributed across its surface and a cushion (rubber or wood pad) to prevent load concentration both between the block and steel and block and floor. For something like this I would make heavy flanges part of a steel box "form" or shell with criss crossing rebar. THEN fill it with concrete for damping and weight. However, eventually the concrete is going to shrink and loosen from the steel. That is why I would criss cross with rebar welded to the flange and shell at odd angles and as braces. A wood stand would be faster, easier, more durable (if well made). It also acts as a cushion between the device and floor. It would also be lighter (for good or bad). |
| - guru - Wednesday, 07/12/06 23:19:44 EDT |
|
Blowpipe brazing. Lots of Mexican and California bridle bits are attached to the leather reins with small, well made "rein chains". The chains made of iron wire as small as or smaller in gage than hay wire. In looking at the link joints, most of which are corroded, I was curious as to the manufacture, so I scraped away some of the rust, and noticed some verdigris. A copper color then appeared and showed that they had been brazed. I assume that a blowpipe and lamp were used, and as I understand it, it was done on small pieces against a charcoal block for heat reflection. |
| Frank Turley - Wednesday, 07/12/06 23:22:13 EDT |
|
Blowpipes: Good to keep in mind that silversmiths , goldsmiths, etc down through the ages have used blowpipes in all sizes. Also, the industry standard term for a "torch" was still "blowpipe" for many years after the forced-air torch was introduced. Some oldtimers still use the term when referring to a hand torch. |
| vicopper - Wednesday, 07/12/06 23:57:44 EDT |
|
Guru, The concrete was going to be a spacer. I'm going to go with wood now that I know everything about concrete. Also, about the 5 lb. hammer being too big: The anvil weighs about 170 lbs. I would think that because all of this 170 lbs. is directly below the hammer rather than being spread out into the horn, tail, and feet that I would be able to use a larger hammer with it than with a typical anvil. What fraction of the weight of a typical anvil is tied up in the horn, tail, and feet? 1/3 maybe?? That would mean that the Chuck Robinson anvil is like a 510 lb. typical (london, german, italian, etc.) anvil, would it not? |
| - Tyler Murch - Thursday, 07/13/06 00:07:49 EDT |
|
used the mass 3j to figure that weight out, guru. That's a nice tool. |
| - Tyler Murch - Thursday, 07/13/06 00:18:53 EDT |
|
That's about right. Blow pipes are one of those things that because they can be made of non-durable material (woods, straw), and are very small, that we KNOW they existed from the results of their use (notably gold granulation) but do not have definitive proof. The same is true of the lathe in some societies such as the ancient Greek's. They had turned jewelery and turned spindles on furniture as well as bronze chariot spokes from turned patterns. . . We are lucky in the case of the Greeks because of the "Foundry Painter". He illustrated many metal working tools not seen in any other vase painter's art. If there had been a "Turner Painter" or "Woodwright Painter" we would know a great deal more about technology of the period. But alas, we do not. Due to the Foundry painter we know the metalsmiths tools of 400 to 350 BC Greece were much the same as those of 1000 AD Sweden as found in the Mästermyer find. The question is, did some ancient attach a bellows to his blow pipe to get a larger more sustained flame? |
| - guru - Thursday, 07/13/06 00:26:44 EDT |
|
Mass3j: It is still a long ways from my Mass2. I refer to it every time there is a question about structurals or pipe (it has the full 1984 AISC database - with permission). It also has a 1000 materials densities database . . and I still find holes. . . The big thing about it right now is it WORKS with all browsers. You would be amazed at how many on-line calculators use code that does not work in anything EXCEPT IE. . . or a proprietary plug in. . . |
| - guru - Thursday, 07/13/06 00:32:41 EDT |
|
Whoops, that math was way off. It would be like a 191 lb. typical anvil. |
| - Tyler Murch - Thursday, 07/13/06 00:44:17 EDT |
|
HHO technology: I guess the news article is the same or similar to one a friend sent Me a couple months ago from Fox News. Th guy makes a big thing about the torch tip not getting hot, how long has it been lit? Doubt it stays cool long. This "new" technology has been around for a while. Felix Jotrand had an electrolisis oxygen and hydrogen plant operating in 1896, and in 1901 patented the oxyhydrogen blowpipe and a system of oxyhydrogen welding.The benifit of oxyacetylene's higher flame temperature no doubt led to it's use instead of oxyhydrogen. The cutting torch was patented in 1904. This all took place in Belgum. The guy in the news broadcast also runs His car on hydrogen, and notes how little water it uses to go a distance, but never mentions that the energy required by the electrolisis is greater than the energy released by burning the oxygen and hydrogen, so it is a net loss, just like corn ethenol, but does have the benifit of no carbon emessions. |
| Dave Boyer - Thursday, 07/13/06 04:09:48 EDT |
|
Guru, Plasma arc welding sounds a lot like the hot argon you mentioned -- here's a link to one description: http://www.pro-fusiononline.com/welding/plasma.htm Dave, I think of ethanol as not having any carbon emissions. Burning it creates carbon dioxide, of course, but it's just releasing the same carbon atoms the corn pulled from the atmosphere in the first place. It's burning fossil fuels that contributes to global warming by releasing carbon that's been locked up underground. As you point out, though, you burn plenty of those growing the corn and distilling the alcohol. |
| Mike B - Thursday, 07/13/06 07:38:36 EDT |
|
Tyler: Note the 5" x 5" stock being used in that anvil is held off of the bottom plate/floor by four upright and angle iron columns. I suspect this significantly reduces the mass efficiency of it. Once you have your height set you might want to consider a slug of mild steel square or round to fill in that gap so you have solid top to floor support. I also suspect the same effect could largely be achieved with 5" x 5" mild steel with a cap of tool steel securely welded on the top. |
| Ken Scharabok - Thursday, 07/13/06 07:42:44 EDT |
|
The problem with the "running on water" article was that nothing is said about how the electricity to make the hydrogen was made in the first place. This is done in the US primarily by butning imported oil, then domestic coal then a small amount of hydro and nuclear. The FOX reporter did not ask this question. Then the idiot in the report made the statement that HHO gas is absolutely stable since all it does is convert to water. . . and the reporter did not question THAT either. I think we need a LOT of cleaner technology and more energy rources but it must be REAL not phoney half baked stuff or perpetual motion machines. . . To this end the public needs REAL education in the basics, not faux or "new age" science. |
| - guru - Thursday, 07/13/06 07:50:14 EDT |
|
Where is Mr. Wizard when you need him? |
| - guru - Thursday, 07/13/06 07:52:41 EDT |
|
I actually do like all that fine work and I wish I had the patience and the dexterity to do it - there I've said it! I feel SO much better now that I have come out. I am very jealous of Rich's skill. But I really enjoy the way smithing iron requires one's whole body and a lot of one's strength. I get a feeling of being completely engaged with the material which is very satisfying. It's not a "manly" thing but it is very much a physical thing. |
| adam - Thursday, 07/13/06 08:57:17 EDT |
|
Perpetual motion: Would be a good name for a laxative! The public has no real desire to be educated. Thats why they watch the inane drivel that passes for news and let TV pundits manufacture ready made opinions. Sure people are curious, but finding out whats really going on takes work, persistence and above all some thought. Taken as a whole, we public are lazy, ignorant and stupid and we LIKE it that way! If were not so we would do something about it. |
| adam - Thursday, 07/13/06 09:35:31 EDT |