WELCOME to the anvilfire Guru's Den - V. 3.3

THIS is a forum for questions and answers about blacksmithing and general metalworking. Ask the Guru any reasonable question and he or one of his helpers will answer your question, find someone that can, OR research the question for you.

This is an archive of posts from July 1 - 7, 2012 on the Guru's Den
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learning the basics : I am 44 years old and have been always interested in metal working. I have over the years spent a lot of time reading about metal forging the proper way, and it is fascinating. I love working with wood and have for the past 12 years, on and off, made it my enjoyable art. I make wooden swords just for my self and it took a lot of work to figure out how to do it right. I found out how to make scabbards as well, but mostly I make swords and knives for my own personal joy. Japanese swords take a lot longer to make well than the typical long sword. I have enjoyed reading your answers, and I continue to learn more as I go along.
   Timothy Conard - Sunday, 07/01/12 01:33:28 EDT

Crowned Wheels : On mine both the drive wheel and the idler are crowned, the platen rollers are not. I also use a 2" contact wheel for the top roller on the platen, which comes in very handy and also removes the temptation to grind on a steel roller.
   Alan-L - Sunday, 07/01/12 09:32:23 EDT

Alan, Thanks, that is what I thought it should be logically.

I had looked at the designs with both platten and contact wheel setup so it could be rotated and used multiple ways. . still drawing.
   - guru - Sunday, 07/01/12 11:59:59 EDT

Platen rollers : Mine are crowned, only because they were salvage rollers from some other piece of equipment that apparently needed crowned rollers. There doesn't seem to be any disadvantage to that, nor any advantage that I can discern. If making my own, I wouldn't bother. My drive wheel is crowned aluminum, my tracking idler is another of the crowned salvaged rollers.
   Rich Waugh - Sunday, 07/01/12 15:43:21 EDT

Crowns and crowns : I noticed that Beaumont is making theirs flat but with rounded corners. They claim better tracking. I suspect this gives some tracking without raising the center of the belt on the platten. Maybe prevents some of Alan's temptation to grind on the corners of a non-contact wheel.
   - guru - Sunday, 07/01/12 19:04:20 EDT

That radiused edge on all the wheels also helps with belt wear. A sharp-edged roller will tend to split the belt if you track it off-center, which sometimes must be done. Tracking the belt off the edge of a contact wheel or platen will give you a radiused grind line wihtou the need for a radiused corner on the wheel or platen, for instance. Good for blending and feathering lines.
   Alan-L - Monday, 07/02/12 13:31:53 EDT

Making Chisels : GURU, Have you guys done any iforge lessons or do you have anything on your web site about making tools such as chisels. I'm looking for information on the process as a whole, steel to use, heat treating, hardening, annealing, etc. I'm basically starting from knowing nothing about this. When to do what at what heat / color, etc... Thanks!
   Jason Failor - Monday, 07/02/12 13:46:03 EDT

I have this thing that came with the property that the junk hauler said is an anvil, since the property might have been a blacksmith's workshop ages ago. We're in New England in an old town, so historically that makes sense. Does anyone agree this actually is an anvil (see pic) and/or think it might be worth something? If so, what kind is it? I gather already it's "hornless". Pics:

   - Mark - Monday, 07/02/12 14:55:08 EDT

Bearded Axe: Depending on the size and shape you may be able to bend the end of the piece down and forge it out.

Chisels: Metal working? Stone working? Woodworking? Ice carving? Bone carving? Engraving? *lots* of types of chisels out there.

BTAIM I heartily commend to your attention "The Complete Modern Blacksmith" as the author goes into details of the making a number of different types of chisels: Woodcarving, engraving and stone carving I remember off the top of my head.
   Thomas P - Monday, 07/02/12 17:27:13 EDT

Query : Mark, Our forum does not allow embedding links and images. Send the photos to me and help you ID the item.

Note that anvils are found ANYWHERE globally that there has been the smallest amount of industry or where armies have passed through. Places you would think anvils would exist are often the last place you find them because they were "found" a long time ago.
   - guru - Monday, 07/02/12 17:37:14 EDT

Making Chisels : Metal working for hot cutting, sculpting square stock hot and cold rolled. Thanks again...
   Jason Failor - Monday, 07/02/12 17:45:56 EDT

bearings : Ive been given some fast lessons in bearings recently on some of the large mechanical crank presses we are rebuilding (2500 ton). A real eye opener for me last week was a FAG roller we bought. Its about 30" o/d, brass cage, FAG are up there with SKF quality wise. The axial height of the bearing was -0.006" to the book size. This is a $13000 bearing, even with a good discount!!! Goes to show, check everything when building machines. We had planned a 0.005" clamp pinch on the bearing race. It would have been a slop fit if we had not checked it (= 12 month failure)

Bearings get pretty complicated pretty quick when you have to specify the internal clearances, and calculate the fit (drive in) of the oil injected taper sleeves up to spacer stops to adjust the internal running clearances. Spose if it was easy eveyone would do it :)
   - John N - Monday, 07/02/12 18:43:02 EDT

Bearings : On large diameter bearings the overall tolerances can be tricky. The manufacturers usually have good data with tolerance range but nothing is perfect, even bearings. When designing with them you generally need shims or machinable spacers. Which you use depend on the on design and available machinery. I like using machined and ground spacers for small gear boxes. They are easier to design and setup than shims. However, if the device is rebuilt it is more difficult later as the mechanic may not have the machinery to make and modify spacers.

My Dad always emphasized that axial stack up was the biggest problem on shafts. Bearing diameters are usually as perfect as anything man can make but axial stack up is a different animal.
   - guru - Monday, 07/02/12 21:47:42 EDT

Making Chisels : Jason, Almost any high carbon tool steel can be used for chisels but modern blacksmiths prefer S7 and H13 for hot work tools. S7 is good for both hold and cold work so many smiths stock that and nothing else. This also simplifies learning how to forge and heat treat your tools. These are both air quench steels, oil in some cases.

Note that alloy steels crumble if overheated. Work at an orange to low yellow and stop when red. You can usually tell but the feel under the hammer when to stop forging tool steel. If its hard to move, stop.

The important difference between hot and cold chisels is how thick or thin they are and their edge grind. Cold chisels are heavy and blunt then ground with a 60° edge. Hot chisels are more slender and have as low as a 40°.

Look at commercial cold chisels for general shape.

Depending on the use blacksmiths chisels often have a slightly arced edge with rounded corners that may also be sharp. See our iForge demo on punching using a slitting slitting chisel.

Other punches and chisels with smooth or rounded faces can be made of lesser steels. Repousse' punches can be made of 4140 and spring steel.
   - guru - Monday, 07/02/12 22:34:57 EDT

Chilsels : Thanks so much for your help!
   Jason - Tuesday, 07/03/12 10:55:13 EDT

You can do things with the H13 and S7 tools that would destroy old alloys once used for such tooling; but burying thin edges in glowing steel still wears on a tool and they may require touching up between jobs.

Just be sure NOT to quench them as air hardening steels just leaving them out after use is generally all they need.
   Thomas P - Tuesday, 07/03/12 12:30:58 EDT

Explosove forming : What with the 4th of July coming and whatnot, also living in a state where fireworks are legal, I'm toying with the idea of explosive forming. I have a bunch of M-60s, a small swage block, and small drop of thick plate. I've placed a piece of 18 gauge sheet under the swage block, then the M-60 under the sheet, all placed on the heavy plate. I lit the charge and recorded the resultant explosion. The sheet was oversized, so the impression wasn't what I expected, but was significant. After listening to my wife complain about the dogs being afraid of the sound, I put the project aside and felt like posting it here. Any thoughts? Other than the obvious safety lessons?
   - Nippulini - Tuesday, 07/03/12 19:47:05 EDT

Explosive forming : While not exactly explosive,
Good old bullet holes can make interesting artwork.
I made a shade/privacy screen of .25 steelplate artistically perforated by my Mosin Nagant rifle. Being that ammunition for it is about $.16 per shot, it did not break the budget either.

While its lots of fun to shoot the crap out of something.
It really takes skill and daring to do it.
That is skill to stay accurately on pattern and daring to shield ones self against flying splinters. Of course further away is safer but much harder to stay accurate.
   - Sven - Tuesday, 07/03/12 20:09:22 EDT

Explosive Forming :
Nip, The closest I've been to this was a galvanized bucket filled with water, a rock and an M-80. This was a prank that a bunch of guys I vaguely knew pulled in someone's front yard. I was the dummy (about age 13) that did not run.

When the short stick of dynamite went off the bucket and contents disappeared momentarily, a big depression formed in the pristine lawn and a few seconds later the bucket and water rained down on me. . I didn't notice the rock - maybe it disintegrated. The high quality bucket "borrowed" off someone's back porch now had a hemi-spherical bottom. . . As door's opened throughout the neighborhood I RAN!

Point - Water is a helpful agent in explosive forming. It is often done in a water tank where the water, which does not compress, is used to transfer the explosive energy to the metal supported above a die (such as your swage block). There is usually a seal between plate and die so water does not fill that space.

Two words STAND BACK! (I don't think your yard is big enough).

A few years ago I was a close observer while a US Civil War replica mortar was being fired. A 35mm film canister was filled 1/3 full of black powder would fire a 3.5 pound ball hundreds of feet. A 1/2 filled can launched the ball high into woods about 500 yards away.

One method used to reproduce coins is using a soft die fired in a modified 12 gauge shotgun. Or maybe its the forming of the steel hub using a gold coin backed by lead. . . I'd have to look it up. In either case its a LOT of metal flowing force.
   - guru - Tuesday, 07/03/12 20:40:29 EDT

Explosive Forming : Back in the early 1990's, soon after I had graduated from college, I watched a show on one of the public broadcasting channels. It featured an artist living out west who worked in bronze. She would carefully arrange objects ranging from very mundane bits of wire to silly things like plastic lizards on a thick steel plate. I think she held this assemblage in place with construction adhesive. Once her design was completed she would take it to a local law enforcement bomb disposal range and with the help of explosives experts she would have C4 charges spread over a thin sheet of bronze placed on the face of the assemblage. This was backed by another thick sheet of steel. When the C4 was detonated the bronze plate was forced down on the assembled pieces resulting in a uniform impression. The steel plates seemed more or less unaffected but the assemblage was gone. Once the bronze was cleaned and polished it was quite attractive.

Aside from this one artist I have only ever heard of explosive forming being used to sleeve 19th century English cannons with new inner barrel linings. These were early breach-loading guns that were actually more awkward to load than the muzzleloaders. The breach blocks were fused in place and a steel sleeve inserted. The sleeve was then loaded with a black powder charge and the barrel end capped. When the charge was set off it expanded the sleeve inside the barrel and serviceable guns were the result.
   - Bill - Wednesday, 07/04/12 09:05:23 EDT

Artistic Explosive Forming :
One or more artists use detonating cord under sheet metal. The cord is arranged in an artistic manner, then the plates set on top. Sometimes these are buried. Then the cord is detonated creating raised lines (or depressed depending on which side you have facing out. Its primitive and random. Not much "art" to it.

Form folding sheet makes much nicer textures and is controlled by the artist. I much prefer this for its interesting results.
   - guru - Wednesday, 07/04/12 14:22:19 EDT

Explosive forming Blacksmith Style :
OK, I don't think I've seen this, maybe I have. . So you may or may not have heard it here first.

Make a die to make raised lettering like a license plate (probably smaller) and make it in a pocket in one anvil for an anvil shoot. Maybe have the town, event or business name and the year. Hand stamp the plates 1/3, 2/3, 3/3 for the number made. #1 goes to the organization and the others sold or auctioned off.

It would not take a competition height shoot to make the plates (maybe only 20 to 30 feet). Plates could be steel, brass, aluminium. Dies would not need to be hardened material since the use would be very low. They could be put in the bottom of a machined powder pocket in the bottom anvil.
   - guru - Wednesday, 07/04/12 20:04:10 EDT

As I was experimenting with this idea, I had actually wondered why this hasn't been explored more in depth at Hammer-Ins that involve anvil shoots.
   - Nippulini - Thursday, 07/05/12 09:10:58 EDT

Anvil Shoots : I've always been under the impression that the original purpose of blowing the anvil was just to make a loud noise. I think it was only when the custom was revived in the later 20th century that we got competitive about it. (In the US, nothing exceeds like excess! ;-)

I like the idea of using blowing the anvil as a method of explosive deformation forming! A combination of tradition, artistry, and loud noises with clouds of smoke.

It will be cranking near the 100s again on the banks of the lower Potomac today. All survived Camp Fenby last weekend, with no heat casualties (or any other injuries). We even did some forging, with frequent breaks in the shade with tall iced drinks.

Y'all be careful in this hot weather (as geographically applicable).
   Bruce Blackistone (Atli) - Thursday, 07/05/12 09:34:57 EDT

Safety : Nip, The piece of sheet metal being loose is a significant safety issue. It could fly out horizontally like a spinning knife OR split into flying pieces. This is doubtful with the amount of explosive you are using but lots of folks get carried away.

The method I described buts the sheet metal in a pocket where it is unlikely to escape at high velocity.

In all of this there is significant safety issues. After decades of preaching safety Tim Ryan lost a thumb during an anvil shoot when something went wrong. It could have been a lot worse. Loose black powder was probably involved.

I would suggest electric ignition from a distance. It is not hard to do. We made our own electric firing match cannons when I was about 12 years old. We simply wrapped a match head with fine coil wire connected to our leads. Touch the lead wires to a small dry cell battery and the heat from the fine coil wire sets off the match. I don't think we ever had it fail.

Bruce, I agree, less powder makes just as much noise and smoke with a lot less danger.
   - guru - Thursday, 07/05/12 09:37:28 EDT

forge fire : My last project was a post-and-beam barn - all mortise, tenons and dovetails, no metal - my own trees, my own sawmill, from soup to nuts. Now, it's time for hardware and fixtures...so I bought a used forge. I have no trouble starting my coal, but I can't seem to keep the coal burning. I have no doubt someone will ask what I'm doing, but I'll wait for precise questions. Otherwise, I'm going to be answering the wrong ones.
   Enoch Wisner - Thursday, 07/05/12 12:35:20 EDT


What size type forge? DIY, Rivet (small round pan slat bottom), Commercial (rectangular cast-iron, fire pot), Side blown (British type with water tuyeer)???

Air supply?

Grade of coal (source). Was it recommended by a smith or purchased from a known supplier of blacksmithing grade (top quality) coal.

Amount of coal in forge?

In all probability you have low quality coal. But some forges do not work well.

   - guru - Thursday, 07/05/12 13:22:08 EDT

Anvil and Vise Resources : Hey, I just relocated from Alaska to Colorado and had to sell my anvil and post vise and am looking for some resources other than "new" manufacturers...any ideas or sources in the Southern Colorado area? Man I hated selling my stuff!
   marc - Thursday, 07/05/12 19:29:50 EDT

hammers : what are the pro's and con's of all the different style hammers ?

Swedish, Nordic, French, and German ?

   greg - Thursday, 07/05/12 23:33:13 EDT

Marc, used stuff is a lot more plentiful in CO than AK but being "back east" I cannot help much on specific places to look other than the usual suspects. Mining was big in Colorado and areas around old mines are a good place to look for used blacksmithing stuff.
   - guru - Thursday, 07/05/12 23:36:29 EDT

hammers : what are the pro's and con's of all the different hammer styles?

Swedish, Nordic, French, German etc.?

   greg - Thursday, 07/05/12 23:37:30 EDT

Greg, The biggest difference is regional style. All have a face, eye and pien. The face varies a bit but eventually most smiths grind their own to suit their work. Piens are fairly consistent, most are poorly dressed by the manufacturers and smiths should learn to dress the pien as needed. Eyes vary as much or more than the general style. American hammer eyes are generally oval and tapered from the center (designed for closed die forging). Some others are semi-oval (round ends, flat sides) without taper. Early eyes were often rectangular on all types of hammer. The most different is the Hofi style with rubber fill. These use a large oversize eye and a handle that does not fit.

Most historical hammers try to put the axis of the mass along the radius of swing. The Swedish style hammer which was once a global style is probably the best example of this in a smithing hammer and many carpenters hammers still follow this form.

The Swedish style hammer lends itself to having a rocker face better than most other styles. A rocker face has a curve in one direction so that it pushes the metal in one sxis rather than spreading it. The American pattern lends itself to a round spreading face.

In the end the differences matter less than what you learned to use and are most comfortable with.
   - guru - Friday, 07/06/12 01:07:06 EDT

More Hammers :
There are other differences that change the feel of the hammer. The popular German hammers sold in the U.S. are a relatively long hammer, thus they have have a smaller face then the American standard blacksmiths hammer. These German hammers are also sold sold rough ground (undressed). They must be ground and shaped prior to use. This reduces their cost but make it difficult for the neophyte that does not know what shape a hammer face should be.

The standard American hammers and most others come finished, usually with a heavy machined chamfer and a crowned face. Even though the hammer is square the working face is round or nearly round. Others are sold hand dressed and reflect that cost in price.

Cheap hammers coming out of China are often as good as undressed having flat faces and just barely rounded corners.

Other hammers that are poorly made today are ball pien hammers or Engineer's hammers. The old ones have a flat face with lightly radiused corners and pien is spherical. Many modern ball piens have a pointed helmet shape pien resulting from using the same cutting profile to make all sizes rather than a spherical surface which must be different for every size. Ball piens also come in less variety of size than they once did and are not nearly so pretty as the old ones which had crisp flowing bevels on the body of the hammer. Ball piens used to come in sizes from 2oz. up to several pounds in small increments.

While some people use a ball pien for forging they are not considered a forging hammer. I use them for riveting, driving punches and chisels, texturing and similar tasks.
   - guru - Friday, 07/06/12 10:21:26 EDT

I have a 2 lb. cross pien from Centaur and a 4.4 lb. Nordic. and a couple ball piens of different weights. I find I use the Nordic the most. I want to try a 3.3 lb. Swedish and I was interested in the French "Locksmith" style. What's that all about? Getting into tight spaces? Balance? I presume the German hammers have a longer handle than the Nordic.

What about the Czech style, seems more compact? The Nordic is said to be the original Czech.

The only problem I have with the Pedinghaus Nordic hammer is the handle sometimes wants to turn in my hand, not very ergonomic. Otherwise it's excellent.

   greg - Friday, 07/06/12 12:06:25 EDT

Hammer handles : Greg,

Hammer handles are personal - just like a lot of things for blacksmiths.

I personally hate the nice smooth oval/round hammer handles. I always shkape the handle w a wood rasp to semi octagonal, end swell, and a ridge along one side so I can feel face or pein.

It's the octagonal that is the real improvement. Less effort to keep from turning, better hammer feel (I think), and no blisters.
   - Rudy - Friday, 07/06/12 14:54:38 EDT

Greg, "Nordic" is a brand, not a type. From what I see on the Centaur site most of them are rounding hammers except for one they call a clipping hammer.

The Peddinghaus cross pien hammers are one of those that need a lot of dressing prior to use as do most of these rough ground hammers.

I see no point in the French style hammers compared to a standard blacksmiths hammer. However a friend that likes them says you can see where you are striking better. . I think he likes them because they are different.

My favorite forging hammers have been old American pattern blacksmiths cross pien hammers with oval handles. A lot of smiths will go on and on about balance and handle shape including how to personalize the handle. But in the end it is what you are used to using and how well you apply it. If you use a very light grip the way you should then the shape of the handle is not very important. A light grip is nearly the equivalent of throwing the hammer at the work and then catching it on the rebound. All the aiming is done in the air.
   - guru - Friday, 07/06/12 16:16:55 EDT

hammers : yeah, I have the Peddinghaus 2000 gram (4.4 lb.) "Nordic" from Blacksmith Depot. I dressed/polished the face and I like it a lot. Works really well moving metal. I try to let the hammer do all the work so I do use a light grip. And I like the short handle for control. I find the 2 lb. straight pein a little light. But it has its uses. I'd like something in a 3 lb. weight. Thanks for the info. :)
   greg - Friday, 07/06/12 16:51:36 EDT

Explosive repousse done to quite a high standard is fairly common on the NM Tech Campus as EMRTC's expertise in explosives was teamed with an artist, Evelyn Rosenberg, who has done impressive works using plastic explosive for repousse and solid phase welding. Please do a search on her and see some of the amazing art she has done. (I attended a lecture she gave at the University and was quite impressed---as well as amused by her complaints about the high price of plastic explosives these days...)
   ThomasP - Friday, 07/06/12 21:21:32 EDT

Well, I ran out of M-60's, but I did take a video of the attempt. I'll try to put it on YouTube and post here.
   - Nippulini - Friday, 07/06/12 22:13:32 EDT

Tomahawk Handles : So I made my tomahawk I mentioned earlier. I ended up simply splitting a longer hole in the railroad spike to read the desired eye size. Anyway, I made a nice ash handle- the problem is when I throw it and it stick in, the fore pushes the handle forward making it loose (make sense?). Is there some way of making either the handle or adding something to it to prevent this loosening? Thanks
   - Eric - Saturday, 07/07/12 10:08:59 EDT

Fishing rod : I know this isn't a blacksmithing question but it is a metal working question. My father purchased an antique fishing rod for his collection and wishes to do a little restoration to it. The grip was originally made of aluminum with cork wrapping but the cork was so old that it crumbled when he picked it up. He wants to rewrap the handle with new cork but the screw that holds the washer in place to keep the cork from sliding off is made of steel. I suspect the two disparate metals have chemically bonded because the screw will not turn even after my father used breakfree on them. Any suggestions for getting the two parts to separate?

Many thanks,
   - Bill - Saturday, 07/07/12 10:22:34 EDT

Tomahawk Handles : Eric, The handle is designed to slide free so that it will not break as easily. Remember, anything that will prevent the handle from coming loose when it sticks will also prevent it from coming loose when the handle strikes first. This is a "You can't have your cake and eat it too." situation. However, one alternative is to get yourself a piece of rawhide thong, soak it until it is pliable and wrap it very tightly around the handle just below the head. Be sure to tie it securely. When the rawhide dries out it will shrink in place and reduce the chances of the handle popping loose. Depending on the diameter of the handle you should need about three feet of rawhide.

If you don't like the handle coming loose I suggest you make yourself a camp axe which is similar in size and shape to a tomahawk but the head is secured with wedges the same way a hammer head is secured.

If you enjoy games of the throwing and sticking variety perhaps making yourself a number of throwing knives would serve better. Throwing knives do not need to be tempered and hardened the same way working knives do. They primarily need to be the right shape and balance. That is a skill unto itself.
   - Bill - Saturday, 07/07/12 10:37:15 EDT

Tapered Fites - Handles :
Eric, How straight the sides of the taper are makes a difference in how well the the handle sticks, AND the handle must match. IF the eye is bowed in or out the handle cannot fit properly or tighten properly. That is why a proper drift with smooth straight tapers is important.

The eye also needs to be uniform in thickness so it can spring open slightly. An eye that is too thick or of uneven thickness does not grip well.

So check your fits. Be sure the handle can smoothly slide in and lock as well as go in farther.
   - guru - Saturday, 07/07/12 17:59:03 EDT

Steel to Aluminium :
As bimetallic corrosion goes this is about as bad as it gets. Soaking, shocking, soaking. . . repeatedly is the best course. You cannot use sufficient heat as it would melt the aluminum.

Drilling the steel screw out of the aluminum is difficult as the drill wants to go into the softer aluminum. A rigid setup on a machine is required. The entire fastener will probably need to be removed and an oversize hole drilled and taped. Then I would use a stainless fastener. While there is still a bimetallic corrosion issue it is not as bad as will carbon steel.

As always with antiques, check to see if repairs are are going to reduce the value. Good luck.
   - guru - Saturday, 07/07/12 18:21:51 EDT

Another Opinion : I have found stainless fastners to be at least as problema5ic as carbon steel when used with aluminum.

Your best bet is to use blue [removable] threadlocker or Teff Gell to seal the assembly. Anti sieze will not do the job, at least in salt or brackish water.

If You drill it out but don't want to use a larger fastner, You could HeliCoil the hole.
   - Dave Boyer - Saturday, 07/07/12 23:59:48 EDT

Steel to Aluminium : I disagree partly with Guru. I would repeatedly apply heat then cool.
Not hot enough to melt the 'ally just enough to get it good and hot.
The ally will expand considerably more and faster than the steel screw.
After a few heating cycles it might be able to come loose.
   - Sven - Sunday, 07/08/12 00:18:00 EDT

And yet another opinion : If that screw is only holding the cork in place, I would think that an aluminum screw would be more sufficiently strong and would present much less of an electrolytic potential than either steel or stainless steel. Heck, even a nylon screw would probably suffice for strength.
   Rich Waugh - Sunday, 07/08/12 02:41:59 EDT

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