| WELCOME to the anvilfire Guru's Den - V. 3.0 |
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THIS is a forum for questions and answers about blacksmithing and general metalworking. Ask the Guru any reasonable question and he or one of his helpers will answer your question, find someone that can, OR research the question for you. This is an archive of posts from August 16 - 24, 2006 on the Guru's Den |
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Time Zones: Yep, our English friends go to bed early, our California friends go to bed late, and our New Zealand and Australian friends are clean into Tommowland. :-) I will gladly take calls from our NPS unit in Guam ( http://www.nps.gov/wapa/ ) at home, since we're never in the office at the same time. Getting up at 04:30, I'm very sensitive to the changes in daylight throughout the seasons. The nice thing about blacksmithing, though, is it's not daylight dependent, and I have done some of my best work at night. It sort of serves as a perfect complement to my daylight outdoor activities around the farm and on the longship. Warm and sunny on the banks of the Potomac. Visit your National Parks: www.nps.gov Go viking: www.longshipco.org British Paerwork Reduction Act of 1814, celebrated tomorrow! http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/washingtonsack.htm http://www.nationalcenter.org/BritishBurnWashington1814.html |
| Bruce Blackistone (Atli) - Wednesday, 08/16/06 08:54:53 EDT |
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That should have been: British "Paperwork" Reduction Act of 1814 |
| Bruce Blackistone (Atli) - Wednesday, 08/16/06 08:56:09 EDT |
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Got lost in central PA and came upon an anthracite mining town that's been abandoned... I forget the name. The state turned the whole town into a museum and have even let people live in the original houses of the miners. Wonderful detail in coal mining, production, and lots of information on the major types of coal and all their uses. Unfortunately the original smithy burned down and was never reproduced. I'll get the specifics later on, but if anyone is lost in central PA, check it out. |
| - Nippulini - Wednesday, 08/16/06 09:05:02 EDT |
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Propane fuel efficiency: Can anyone tell me which is more fuel efficient a naturally aspirated forge or one with a blower. |
| oljoe - Wednesday, 08/16/06 10:57:07 EDT |
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Forge Efficiency: Oljoe, There is no difference other than that you have more workable adjustment on a blow forge and can make them run VERY rich or very lean. When both types of forge are heating the same volume they are equally efficient. The problem arises when home built forges do not match burner capacity to enclosed operating capacity. A forge with an undersized burner will never reach maximum temperature but will appear to be very efficient. A forge with too much burner will have more combustion going on outside the forge than in thus wasting fuel. Overall design is more ciritical than the type of burner. The only advantage to an atmospheric burner over blown burners is the atmospheric burners run a little quieter and need no electricity. The advantage of the blown burners is they can be pushed to burn really hot. |
| - guru - Wednesday, 08/16/06 11:25:28 EDT |
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Thanks guru for the quick response. I am going to build a new forge and was trying to decide what to build. Since I have a blown forge I think I will build a smaller naturally aspirated forge for general forging and portability. I have some castable refractory that I used to repair my blown forge. Is this something that I should use to build the forge or should I get some K-wool and ITC-100? Another question if I may. Is a round forge design better or will a box type work just as well |
| oljoe - Wednesday, 08/16/06 12:07:04 EDT |
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Oljoe, The castable is more durable than the kaowool but it is heavy in even small quantities. This also makes a forge that is slow to heat up. The tubular or round forge is best when using Kaowool because the arch makes it self supporting. IF the forge is to be portable I would use kaowool for everything except the floor. Brick or castable works best on the floor. The ITC-100 reduces dust from the kaowool, helps protect the kaowool from small quantities of scale and flux. |
| - guru - Wednesday, 08/16/06 13:18:16 EDT |
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Thanks guru, Kaowool and ITC-100 it is, along with a castable floor. I remember seeing a formula to calculate volume of a forge body somewhere….maybe here. A search should turn something up. Thanks again. Joe |
| oljoe - Wednesday, 08/16/06 14:17:40 EDT |
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What is the essential shape for an engraving tool? I couldn't find it on anvilfire, unless I missed it and the pictures and sites online either don't give a good picture or they are just trying to sell them while as I want to make my own. Thanks in advance! ---Rob |
| - Rob - Wednesday, 08/16/06 17:43:12 EDT |
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It seems to me a perfectly tuned naturally aspirated forge would be more efficient. The blown forge squanders the energy used to originally compress the propane and then burns electricity to make up for it. But I suspect the electricity use is small compared to the inefficiency of a poorly tuned forge. The worst trouble I had with time zones was working with an office in Saudi Arabia. There was an eight-hour time difference, but worse, the weekend there was Thursday and Friday. If you needed something from them after about 9:00 Wednesday morning, you couldn't get it until the following Morning. (Actually the folks we had there were really good about taking calls at "home.") |
| Mike B - Wednesday, 08/16/06 18:33:01 EDT |
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"following Morning" should be "following Monday." |
| Mike B - Wednesday, 08/16/06 18:33:36 EDT |
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The range of tuning for a blown forge is much greater than for an aspirated one as there is a certain ammount of pressure and opening you have to have for it to aspirate. With the blown forge I can go with no gas no air up to massive ammounts of either or both. Note having recently had a vendor charge me for a complete fill up for a partial tank a blown forge that can run the tank all the way to almost ambient pressure would be more monetarily efficient in such cases; unfortunately He's the vendor open Saturday Mornings that does cheap fills rather than switchouts... I really enjoyed working in Jakarta Indonesia about 1/2 way around the world from my home base in OH back then. If I had a problem I would call my boss right before bed and sometime during the night a fax would be shoved under the hotel room door with the solution on it. |
| Thomas P - Wednesday, 08/16/06 19:17:24 EDT |
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Rob, There is much more than just one shape for an engraving tool (graver or burin). Essentially, they are all chisels, therefore an "inclined plane" in mechanical terms. In practice, the cross section can be round, square or rectangular, diamond, onglette or knife edged. the determining factor is the type of line or contour you wish to engrave. Each one cuts a different gouge in the surface, and the way it is sharpened also affects the appearance of the final cut. If you really want to know about gravers, pick up a copy of "Engraving on Precious Metals" by A. Brittain, et al, or "The Art of Engraving" by James Meek. Both are good, straightforward books on the subject. |
| vicopper - Wednesday, 08/16/06 21:11:27 EDT |
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I would like to know why blacksmiths plunge their hot, newly forged metal pieces into cold water to cool, rather than just letting them cool in the air. It seems like the cold would make the metal more brittle. |
| Cathryn - Wednesday, 08/16/06 22:12:01 EDT |
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Cathryn: If the steel has low [.1% or less]carbon, plunging in water to cool won't make it hard or brittle. The water is just to speed the cooling process, as once the steel looses it's red color, You can't tell if it is still hot enough to cause a burn by looking at it. Better safe than sorry. |
| Dave Boyer - Wednesday, 08/16/06 22:36:09 EDT |
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Cathryn; I find your statement a bit strange; I've been forging only about 25 years now and I don't know *ANY* smith that regularly "plunge their hot, newly forged metal pieces into cold water to cool" and in fact I have been told that one of the most famous smiths in America wouldn't allow water in his shop! Of course a lot of this is to do with forging A36 that may have an apreciable carbon content; the old real wrought iron would still be very soft after a quench due to the very low carbon content that was generally supplied, (Yes you can have a high carbon wrought iron "steel"; but it's pretty rare in the scrap stream) Could you share with us where you got this notion from? Thomas |
| Thomas P - Wednesday, 08/16/06 23:04:48 EDT |
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...unless it's Hollywood, in which case they just like the steam and the sound, which says to the viewer: This is REALLY HOT! ;-) |
| Bruce Blackistone (Atli) - Wednesday, 08/16/06 23:07:47 EDT |
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Larry Soule', There's a company called "Carolina Glove Company", (look it up on Google), they sell ambidextrious kevlar gloves you can buy singly. For bearings, come close to the housing diameter and shim it up, come close to the shaft diameter and rout it out. Never could find exact sizes and it sounds tacky, but I'll gotten 3 years out of a "busted " blower so far using that method! |
| Thumper - Wednesday, 08/16/06 23:48:34 EDT |
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new balcksmith, much previous experience in other metal working, skilled professinal woodworker, looking to expand and learn, I am looking for an anvil to buy, and have tried to do my homework to learn what to look for as far as condition of the anvil, sound, rebound, and how it was made in the first place, I cannot afford to just go out and buy the best brand new anvil made today, and have recognized the new cheap ones as not being worth buying, specifically I am questioning about a new anvil available on ebay (and yes I am leary of any of these) there are new 110 pound anvils claiming to be cast hardened steel, 75-77% bounce test, 45-50 rockwell, made in europe (won't say were) from atlas anvils, from "frankie8acres", these are constantly available at about $150 with $65 shipping, is anyone familiar with the quality of this particular anvil? How good or bad a deal is this? Hopefully I have not repeated a common question, if I could have found this out from my own research, I would not have asked, Jared |
| Jared - Thursday, 08/17/06 00:18:31 EDT |
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Thumper Etal. . Kayne and Son sell lefts or rights as needed. Larry was looking for someone to trade with. . . Quenching newly forged parts: I quench a LOT of decorative parts. Especially when doing demos, before handing to the audiance to have a look. Anything critical cools on the forge a short time before quenching. Nothing is quenched at a visible heat. When you are doing demos and there are a LOT of interuptions it is much more likely to get burned picking up something hot . . so cooling before lying down is for MY safety. There is a big difference in working in a zoo where you are the attraction and working in a sane shop environment. The only time I have had trouble with brittle pieces in mild steel is bending and squareing up drive hook corners in a vise. The vise absorbs heat fast enough to harden sections 1/4" square and smaller. So I usualy reheat drive hook corners to prevent fracture. I've only had a few problems with 1/4" (6.4mm) square but 3/16" (5mm) mild steel will harden to the brittle point almost every time, even with a hot vise. So they need to be at least normalized after bending. Liquids are not the ONLY quenchant. This also gets us back to the ambient light problem. Working in bright daylight you cannot see a hardenable read heat. . . |
| - guru - Thursday, 08/17/06 00:35:48 EDT |
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Engraving Tools: Most for lining work are a miniature version of a diamond point or "cape" chisel with the face ground to make on sharp corner the cutting edge. Small HSS cutter bits and old taps make good graving tools but you have to add a handle. |
| - guru - Thursday, 08/17/06 00:38:58 EDT |
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Ebay Anvils: Jared, The particular dealer you are discussing is both a lier and theif. He stole images from anvilfire and argued for months that they were his. His discriptions of anvils are mostly taken from here and hit all the key words. See our FAQ about Selecting an Anvil and the articles linked to it. See the review of the Russian anvil. These anvils are available from Harbor Freight for $100 or less, ocassionaly with free shipping. If you are a professional of any type then you should know better than to buy junk tools. Good anvils are not "just steel". They are hardened (from hardenable) tool steel, are properly ground and finished, having a good usable shape. If you cannot afford a good new anvil then look for a good USED anvil. They typicaly sell for the same as the import junk on ebay and most of the old anvils are as good as the very best made today if not better. |
| - guru - Thursday, 08/17/06 00:48:52 EDT |
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Jared, Questions about these anvils come up from time to time. Basically, these anvils really aren't worth messing with. Speculation is that these are the same anvils that Harbor Freight sells in their retail stores for about $90. Since they haven't been sold online by Harbor Freight in a few years they have started popping up on e-bay for twice the retail price. You should take a look at the article in the anvil FAQ on this site titled "cheap Russian anvils" as this is a description of this anvil from a few years back as well as a rundown of some of the shady history of this anvil on e-bay. For the $215 you would pay to buy one of these questionable anvils you can probably find an infinately better used anvil. The best thing you can do is get in touch with the local blacksmithing group in your area. Usually someone in the blacksmithing group will know where there is a small horde of anvils. I recently visited the shop of a guy who had about 40 good quality anvils stacked up in his barn. |
| Steven Galonska - Thursday, 08/17/06 01:04:35 EDT |
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I have many years experience welding and fabrication of steel and have been blacksmithing for a couple. I am looking for a power hammer for my home shop. There are many kinds and sizes out there. What in-put do you have on good used or new hammers out there that would be good for a novice (with some experience)? I have been looking at the Big Blues, but would prefer a lower cost used hammer. Thanks. Mike |
| MIKE M. - Thursday, 08/17/06 01:22:19 EDT |
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I am looking to buy an ironworker and have been offered a FICEP early Geka style iron worker. Does anyone know anything about these machines ? It has 29 tonnes punching power and 55 tonnes shearing power. |
| mark - Thursday, 08/17/06 02:35:38 EDT |
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Jared: As far as I know ATLAS is simply a name this seller came up with. If you look at the one at a Harbor Freight retail outlet it has a sticker on it which says they are imported exclusively by HF and has Made in Russia on the sticker as well. I'm speculating this seller merely buys them retail at HF, removes the sticker and then lists them on eBay. I can't image how he would be obtaining them otherwise. Working backwards from the HF price of about $90. In that is the freight from Russia to the U.S. May be shipped out of a Baltic port or a Pacific one. In any case shipping hunks of iron can't be all that cheap. Then HF wants to make a good profit on them. It wouldn't surprise me if the production plant only receives about $15-20 each for them. Yes, labor is cheap in much of Eastern Europe (and technically Russia is both an European and Asian country) and some foundries are state subsidized, but just how good of an anvil would you expect for that price? The seller uses a bait and switch tactic (at least IMHO). The anvil shown in the opening photograph won't be what you receive. He doesn't tell you that until towards the end of the listing. The one you will receive has the hardy hole diamond to the horn. Consensus seems to be this greatly weakened the anvil body at that point. Last I looked at this seller's fixed shipping charges they were computed based on the fartherist continental state away from him. Anything closer he also made a profit on the shipping. If interested in one as a starter anvil HF has retail outlets in many locations. When you are through with it, it will have a scrap value of about $6. |
| Ken Scharabok - Thursday, 08/17/06 07:34:47 EDT |
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Power Hammer Cost: Mike M,, The Big BLU's are the least expensive hammer on the market for their size and capacity. While you can purchase a new Chinese hammer for less you must choose a much smaller hammer to pay less. Kuhn and Phoneix are in similar quality class but you get more hammer from Phoenix. However, there are supply problems with both. Used hammers vary a lot and you may have to wait to find what you are looking for. Little Giant made more hammers than anyone selling them on credit. This means they are available AND you can get parts for them. They are finicky and difficult to operate unless very well maintained. Bradley and Fairbanks made better hammers but they are complete orphans. Champion made an OK power hammer as well. But again, it is an orphan. While Bradley is not a 100% orphan there are no parts and castings are replaced by machined or fabricated parts. So they might as well be orphan. Used prices vary but are runing in the $2,000 to $4,000 range for all sizes of Little Giant in good to just rebuilt condition. Hammers with problems or missing motors are selling for $1,000 to $3,000. Other mechanical hammers are more or less depending on condition. Several years ago Chambersburg Utility hammers in the 200 to 500 pound range were being scraped at a significant rate and prices ran $500 to $1500 for these wonderful machines. Now that the market seems to have dried up the prices are MUCH higher. Old Nazel and Chambersburg self contained hammers sell for $5,000 to $20,000 despite the Chinese hammers of simmilar design no being imported. Industries that are still using these 75 to 80 year old machines routinely spend tens of thousands of dollars on their repair. Nazels are undoubtedly the best. They have a smoother control and a simpler drive train. Chambersburg's have simplified controls that work well but they put reduction gearing in the middle of the drive train. When this fails it is VERY VERY expensive to replace. Chambersburgs were manufactured more recently so you are more likely to find newer hammers. However, many self contained hammers were purchased for use in metalurgical laboratories and ocassionally you can come across one with virtualy no operating time. Good luck. |
| - guru - Thursday, 08/17/06 08:51:40 EDT |
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fwiw, My HF anvil is slowly becoming a cheap DIY swageblock. Everytime I need to I cut& grind a new impression into it, Or drilled different size pritchells too. |
| - Mike - Thursday, 08/17/06 09:57:19 EDT |
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If you must have a cast iron ASO, Northern Tool has them in a recent catalog: 55# for US$35 and 70# for US$50; if you're going to buy a piece of junk you might as well not waste much money on it! Thomas |
| Thomas P - Thursday, 08/17/06 10:42:36 EDT |
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AH. . so THAT'S what it is! A DIY swage block kit. Here's your blank, just carve away! Sort of like some of the bad block patterns around that have parting lines down the middle of side impressions. . . |
| - guru - Thursday, 08/17/06 10:45:31 EDT |
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I once considered machining swage blocks from solid steel slabs. Had a fellow with a big lathe that was going to machine the bowl shapes. I was going to mill the side grooves and hand dress the larger flame cut portions. Deal fell through when the other fellow picked up some lucrative work. Then steel plate prices rose and it got hard to find as well. A few folks have had flame cut blanks made but the designs were lousy and tried to flame cut small impressions that should have been left to hand shaping. Phoenix Jewelers Supplies has a line of small dapping blocks (jeweler's versions of swage blocks) that are machined from solid (in Spain I think). In this technique ball end milling cutters make all the dish impressions and the side grooves are gang milled 8 or 10 at a time using the same setup for hundreds of blocks. Drilling your own heavy bolster or punching blocks is not a bad job and makes a useful and valuable tool. |
| - guru - Thursday, 08/17/06 11:17:18 EDT |
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I have a piece of a press brake die that I purchased form another smith. It weighs about 30# and is roughly 6" on a side. I have ground a depression in one side of it to use for dishing. Using a 9" angle grinder, it only took me about a half-hour and one disc to make a depression 3" in diameter and about 3/4" deep, which works just dandy. I'll do another side or two using my 7" and 4-1/2" grinders, to have a decent spectrum of depressions. A handy item, as it is heavy enough to just sit there when in use. |
| vicopper - Thursday, 08/17/06 12:07:48 EDT |
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Ficep and Geka are two completely different companies, Ficep is italian, and Geka is in the Basque country of northern spain. So an ironworker could not be both- its one or the other. Both make very good machines. Ficep is not supported in the USA at all- most early Ficeps were imported by Heller and sons in southern california, but I am not sure if they would have any parts or info on an older Ficep or not. GEKA is currently imported and pretty well supported, by Comeq in Baltimore, but I dont know if they would support an older machine or not either. But GEKA in Spain is pretty easy to deal with, and have some english speakers there. By the way you spell "tonnes" however, I suspect you may not be in North America- which might make your support issues tougher. FICEP in Italy is still in biz as well, but I have never dealt with em. Is this ironworker mechanical, or hydraulic? The older mechanical ironworkers are pretty bulletproof, but the europeans mostly shifted to hydraulic close to 30 years ago- which means if its mechanical, its probably a 60's or earlier model, and therefore parts are pretty unavailable. 29 tons punching aint much- its about a 1 1/4" hole in 1/4" plate, or a 5/8" hole in 1/2" plate. Of course, it depends on what you commonly do, but most fab shops really like at least a 40 ton punch. 50 is better. Punches, dies, and coupling nuts are available for these machines, reasonably priced. Shear blades are sharpenable or replaceable, a bit less reasonably, but not excessive. But other parts are probably not easy to come by, so you should inspect the machine carefully, and make sure it works. Ficeps are sturdy, usually a lot of machined steel parts, as opposed to castings, unless its REALLY old, which means they are easier to remake than a casting would be. Location affects price- where are you, and how much is it? Model number? I have some, but not a lot, catalogs showing old Ficeps- might have it, might not. |
| - ries - Thursday, 08/17/06 13:44:40 EDT |
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ries I am in England and the ficep is going for £300 and i dont have the model number |
| mark - Thursday, 08/17/06 13:58:44 EDT |
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I have what I think is a Hay-Budden anvil and would like to know when it was made. I found 2 numbers on the front. I think they are 415627 and 176. The numbers were difficult to read. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks. |
| Brian - Thursday, 08/17/06 15:41:39 EDT |
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Brain: 176 should be weight plus or minus a couple of pounds. I suspect what you are seeing is A15627, which would date it to 1919. Would have a one-piece forge steel top half and a cast base, which likely was cast mild steel. |
| Ken Scharabok - Thursday, 08/17/06 19:05:38 EDT |
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Quenching hot steel -- not to omit the obvious, the best reason to quench steel is that you're making a tool and *want* it to get hard. In that the case, the quench is followed immediately by tempering to reduce the brittleness. |
| Mike B - Thursday, 08/17/06 20:27:33 EDT |
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If the Ficep works- that is, if it punches holes and shears without problem, I would think £300 is quite a good price. Over here, any working ironworker would be worth twice that at a bare minimum, and hydraulic ones would run more like £3000 to £8,000 used. Ficep is still around - www.ficep.it and they still make ironworkers. They will sell you punches and dies for it, I am sure. They even have a UK distributor- www.ficep.co.uk First thing I would do is get the model number and serial number, and call up the UK distributor, and ask to talk to the tech guy- whatever they call them over there- and ask about the machine, parts availability, and so on. My guess is that somewhere in the UK, there would be an aftermarket punch supplier, as there are here in the USA, who make cheaper punches to fit most manufacturers equipment. But if not, punches and replacement shear blades should be available direct from Ficep. |
| - ries - Thursday, 08/17/06 20:49:32 EDT |
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Making swage blocks. I have a friend who made a small one by hammering ball bearings into a block of hot steel. If you have a big power hammer (I don't know 500 pounds or more?) you can make a medium to full sized one. |
| - Tyler Murch - Thursday, 08/17/06 21:24:16 EDT |
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Miles Undercut ...Thers another nice old Stude at the intersection of 285 and the old Pecos Trail |
| - Arthur - Thursday, 08/17/06 22:07:44 EDT |
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Speaking of blocks, I am still looking for a pattern maker willing to make two patterns for just spoons and rivet heads. Would be cast out of bronze or similar metal. |
| Ken Scharabok - Thursday, 08/17/06 22:10:52 EDT |
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Thanks for the quick response to my question about power hammers. The info will help me find the right one. |
| MIKE M. - Thursday, 08/17/06 22:26:13 EDT |
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i have a piece of titanium that i would like to make a bracelet from but i have no idea how to work it ! hot? cold? or can i even use it ? bob |
| Bob mathie - Thursday, 08/17/06 22:31:02 EDT |
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thanks all for the info, I was more than leary of such a purchase, but like you said, he hit all the keywords, enough to make one curious, as with all my other crafts, my intent is to have tools that will still be working for many years to come, and have my work turn out likewise, I will continue to look for a good used anvil. |
| Jared - Thursday, 08/17/06 22:39:59 EDT |
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Arthur-- Many thanks! I'll check it out. |
| Miles Undercut - Thursday, 08/17/06 23:04:32 EDT |
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Patterns: Ken the pattern is EASY. The problem is finding and dealing with a foundry. The foundry will dictate the style of the pattern, loose, boarded match plate, ganged, mold box. . . and often the material, wood, resin, aluminium. When you you know EXACTLY what the foundry wants then you make your pattern. I have two mahogany loose swage block patterns and a (near finished) wood match plate (expensive) large block pattern that the foundry we found would not accept. They wanted resin mold boxes which required starting from scratch. Some foundries only want metal patterns for durability. THIS I fully understand since my wood patterns came back from the last foundry with sputter ball burns. . . Most foundries have an in-house pattern maker or a local pattern maker they prefer to work with. They are expensive and unless you give them detailed engineering drawings and insist on them meeting them you WILL NOT get what you wanted. Having patterns made prior to contacting a foundry can be money thrown away. |
| - guru - Thursday, 08/17/06 23:15:32 EDT |
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I'm starting to work in metal a little bit, just got through making a simple gate for the garden, and now I want to put some thin, flat-stock "curlie cues" on it, like you see on wrought iron gates and railings. I need some direction on where to find a design or help for making a jig to bend the flat stock *consistantly*...I've been cold-bending some 1/4" around some small diameter pipe and I think there is a better way.... Any help would be appreciate. Thanks in advance, -Glenn |
| - Glenn - Thursday, 08/17/06 23:19:23 EDT |
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Ti : Bob, Industraily Ti is heated in a vacuume and handled under very strict conditions. However, a variety of folks including our Thomas P. has made a variety of things from it. Thomas made a pair of tongs. It DOES have a very narrow working range. After cleaning and polishing the Ti you can heat it and produce the most gorgeous temper oxide colors you have ever seen. I have a Star Trek pin that is beautiful shades of deep blue and red created mearly by heating. |
| - guru - Thursday, 08/17/06 23:22:03 EDT |
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Glenn, see our 21st Century page articles on benders. They are easy to make. |
| - guru - Thursday, 08/17/06 23:23:31 EDT |
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some alloys of Ti give off dangerous fumes. |
| - Tyler Murch - Thursday, 08/17/06 23:24:29 EDT |
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Thanks Ken for the info on my anvil. |
| Brian - Thursday, 08/17/06 23:26:04 EDT |
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Centaur Forge has a really awesome portable 7 lb swage block at a great price. |
| - Billy - Friday, 08/18/06 00:18:26 EDT |
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Can you use copper pipe welding flux for forge welding? |
| Christian Sanchez - Friday, 08/18/06 10:47:15 EDT |
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Ti can be fun to work with. I try to stick to CP 1 or 2 TI to avoid the fume problems. At forging temp it's dead soft, much softer than steel at forging temp---but once it drops in temp it turns hard fast! It will also absorb gas and become brittle as glass if you have to forge it a lot, so work it fast and hard with as few heats as possible. as for making a bracelet? What alloy? What Heat Treat? Do you just need to bend it around or do you need to manipulate the thickness? I've cut Ti with a hacksaw; not fun but it worked. it workhardens to an amazing degree why drilling/lathing/etc is hard you have to use a substantial cut to avoid workhardening it beyond workability. I also made a blacksmith's eating set from Ti for our ABANA chapter's potlucks----dishwasher safe! And I think I just found my sheet of Ti so I can make a plate and drinkintg vessel as well bwahahahahahahaha Note: Ti makes lousy knives and swords. Thomas |
| Thomas P - Friday, 08/18/06 11:01:13 EDT |
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Copper pipe, if welded, is done with TIG and no flux. Copper pipe is usually not welded but soldered or brazed. These fluxes are not suitable for forge welding. |
| - John Odom - Friday, 08/18/06 11:26:50 EDT |
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Copper pipe, if welded, is done with TIG and no flux. Copper pipe is usually not welded but soldered or brazed. These fluxes are not suitable for forge welding. |
| - John Odom - Friday, 08/18/06 11:27:40 EDT |
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I'm working on a project where I will start with a piece of 1.5" round and taper it in opposite directions down to 5/8" round. The final product needs to be 16" long in total. My question is, how long does my 1.5" piece need to be so that the tapers end at the correct size and length? |
| Mike H - Friday, 08/18/06 12:26:33 EDT |
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I will be forging it down of course. |
| Mike H - Friday, 08/18/06 12:27:32 EDT |
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I recently got a 60# swedge block from Kayne. It came with a "foundry finish" about the texture of a #40 grit. There is no ugly parting seam in the way. It seems very nicely designed and cast. The depressions are nice and deep. Most of it I can get to easily with my grinding wheels but there are a couple of depressions less than 1.5" I am not sure how to get into without damaging the edges. It's always a pleasure to deal with Kayne. |
| adam - Friday, 08/18/06 12:44:55 EDT |
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Frustrum of Cone or Truncated Cone: Mike, See my post above of 08/09/06 to Thumper on the subject of volumes. A little logic and slight of hand is needed to figure this out without getting into real geometry or odd constants (see Machinery's Handbook). In this case I will cheat and use a program I wrote that calculated the volume of truncated cones. For HALF your bar the volume will be 7.494 cubic inches so the full bar will be 15 cuin. Divide the area of a 1.5" circle into 15 and you get 8.488". There are three (or more) methods of calculating this volume. In my program I used proportioning to determine the theoretical length of a cone coming to a point then subtracting the extra to get the final volume. Full length = R1 * L / (R1 - R2) The other way is to use a volume of rotation added to the cylindrical volume of the small diameter (D2). The area of the volume of rotation is (L * (R1 - R2)) / 2. The diameter it is rotated through is at the center of gravity of the right triangle formed by the holow cone. This is 1/3 the distance from the side next to the cylinderical section. Base of triangle = 3/4" - 5/16" = 7/16" Cg offset = 7/16" / 3 = .1458 Radius of Rotation = 5/16" + .1458 = .458333... Diameter of Rotation = .91666... Area of Rotation = (7/16" * 8") / 2 = 1.75 Volume of rotation = PI * .91666 * 1.75 = 5.039 Volume of internal cylinder = PI * 5/16" * 5/16" * 8 = 2.45 Sum = 7.49 cuin. Same as above. Length for twice that volume is 8.488" (I'd round to 8.5 for scale and texture losses). The volume of rotation calculation is no simplier than others but it can be applied to many cases and is a good check against other methods. Although it requires a couple more steps if you used the sum of area of the triangle and rectangle and found their center of gravity the entire volume can be calculated using the volume of rotation method. |
| - guru - Friday, 08/18/06 14:16:15 EDT |
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Mike's tapering project: It sounds like you have two cones, each 8" long. So you calculate the volume of one of them, and http://www.abe.msstate.edu/~fto/tools/vol/cone.html is a cheat-sheet for that. Multiply by two to get the total volume and then figure out the height of a 1.5" diameter cylinder with that volume. |
| - Marc - Friday, 08/18/06 14:16:26 EDT |
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Oops. Too slow with the keyboard. |
| - Marc - Friday, 08/18/06 14:17:38 EDT |
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Finishing Swage Blocks: Adam, what shape depressions? When I last finished a swage block the following tools were required: 7.5 Angle grinder with full wheel and worn out (small) wheel. 6"x 1" HS Norton flap wheel (used on angle grinder). 1/4" die grinder with HS flap wheels, cylindrical stones, tree carbide rotary file, cylinder carbide rotary file and rubber arbors for 2" and 3" diameter sanding disks. Conical spiral sandpaper "wheels" that fit a threaded arbor (gift of Steve Kayne). Cheap small diameter flap wheels used in an electric drill. Hammer and chisels (cape, straight, oval). (2) 24" Bastard Files Ah. . it was everything that a large industrial supplier had in a foundry town. . . plus what I had on hand. In 1984 the cost of the abrasives to clean up four similar blocks cost $90 and did not include the worn 7.5" wheel (about 4"). Time required, 2 days. These were the same finish quality as the Newman blocks. One of the new 4.5" grinders whould have been REAL handy (they did not make them then). Some of the V grooves cleaned up well others did not. The sand burned into the surface quiuckly wrecked the edges of the files I tried to use to clean up the V grooves. That was half a day per block and $22 worth of abrasives. If you fugure $15/hr for labor that is $87 to dress a small swage block. Much more if you do not have the tools time or skills. I keep telling folks that they need to convince foundries that the finish is VERY important and would be worth the extra cost to do RIGHT. . . the way they did it 100 years ago! Prior to those above I had some bad castings from a friend's pattern that finishing started by weld repair, then facing on a shaper then TONS of hand grinding. . . These were cast from "left over" metal and were so porus and full of the most bizzar shrinks and crystaline formations that the welding was almost impossible and did more damage than it repaired. Drilling ONE 1/2" through hole took a couple hours on a HD drill press due to the metal hardness (white CI). I ended up selling them off for scrap price AFTER all that work. . . Dressing blocks all over is not easy. There are no tricks. You have to find and purchase the proper size and shape abrasives. A good 1/4" air or electric die grinder is almost a neccessity. Much of the finishing I did was with hammer and chisels followed by files and hand sanding. Flap wheels can be shaped with a dressing tool but have a brief life in corners. Large angle grinder wheels can be used at an angle to the axis of a half cylinder to clean up from 3/8" diameter to as large as the wheel. Edges of Depressions: These should be rounded off very soft. On the block you are working on the only depression that has the correct edge radiusing as-cast is the large bowl. All the spoons and smaller hemispheres should have similar radii. All the other corners should likewise be radiused. Swage blocks, like anvils, even though we like to keep those sharp edges for looks they are bad for forging and provide weak places to chip off. A good swage block looks old and well worn or as if it has been a stone in river the edges worn down to where thee is almost nothing to wear. The only edge that really needs to be sharp as-cast is at the parting line if cast as a loose pattern. Otherwise as a boarded pattern the parting can be just below the face where the radiusing ends (never, ever at the cneter line). Most hemispheres in blocks are much too deep. They should be no more than 1/4 of the shape, some preferring 1/5 or less. When too deep they can benefit from extra edge radiusing. Note that there is a significant difference in the shape of half rounds in a swage block and a forging die. In a swage block they are used for final dressing often using a matching top tool. They should be close to half round with broken edges. A forging die should be much wider and the only part matching the final radius should be about 90 degrees of the bottom. A finishing swage should fit about 160 to 170 degrees. |
| - guru - Friday, 08/18/06 15:15:37 EDT |
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Thank you Guru and Marc. This is an invaluable resource and I thank you very very much. |
| Mike H - Friday, 08/18/06 16:04:37 EDT |
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When I have to clean up swage blocks one of the tools I find most usefull is a die grinder with solid carbide burrs. The one I use most is a 3/4" diameter bit with a half round on the end. The burrs are expensive, but they cut very quickly yet leave a smooth finish if you use a light touch. The MOST important thing is to keep tools moving, it is easy to grind too much. Because of this I have asked the foundry that casts blocks for me to err on the side of leaving a little flash. The grinders they use are VERY aggressive. A 4" or 5" grinder with a worn down disc held on an angle often works well. With a 4" or 5" grinder you can "feather" the switch so it grinds a little slower. |
| - JNewman - Friday, 08/18/06 18:56:37 EDT |
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Ive ground down literally tons of dies & impressions, and it never ceases to impress me how much work can be done with a 4.5" angle grinder, 'hard' disks & ''flap' disks, you can remove an amazing amound of metal with one cheap tool - ALWAYS remember the PPE though, we all get cocky and dont bother with the specks - squinting and looking away slightly does not work! - I know people who have no depth perception because of this attitide! The carbide burrs are the worst offenders in a die grinder - they fire off hot needles that stab right into you - be warned!! You get 2 chances with your eyes, if your lucky... |
| - John N - Friday, 08/18/06 19:09:42 EDT |
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Good point John N even with glasses on I have got stuff in my eyes I wear glasses AND a face shield now when I use those burrs they do spray!! little shards of metal when new. |
| - JNewman - Friday, 08/18/06 19:48:10 EDT |
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They must have had special rules for Virginia-dont run with scissors, and no modern tools- because in 1984, out here in Washington, I had several 4 1/2" grinders- Black and Decker, Makita, Bosch, Porter Cable, and many others were available at least as far back as the mid 70's. In fact, I still own a couple of Bosch 4 1/2" grinders I bought in the 70's. Like John Newman, I used solid carbide burrs and flap discs on the 4 1/2" grinder to clean up my John Newman swage block. With good quality abrasives, the cost has gone down quite a bit- one $5 Klingspor alumina zirconia mop disc will do a whole swage block, and a carbide burr will last a lot longer than one block. I am afraid that foundry quality aint gonna come back in my lifetime- in fact, it seems more likely that CNC milling prices will keep coming down, and it will end up being cheaper just milling em from solid. I know quite a few guys around here who run a hundred grand machine for $50 an hour. My friend Phillip Baldwin has been making a few swage blocks from 4" plate, having em flame cut- but he is not doing spoon dishes or other depressions in them, just making the edges all curvy. He is not selling em though- he uses them himself, and his apprentices end up with them. Seems like a combination of a flame cut blank with CNC milled depressions would result in a "no cleanup" swage block at competitve prices. |
| - ries - Friday, 08/18/06 19:54:42 EDT |
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If I had but known, I could probably have had some swage blocks made from old drop froge die blocks in the CNC edm, and had a really nice set. That CNC EDM would go into a polish routine at about the end of cut and give a mightly nice finish. and they would have been "Hardtem" Ohhhh wellllll.... |
| Ptree - Friday, 08/18/06 21:13:28 EDT |
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I was going to try a "Penny Weld" with copper wire this weekend at a demo at an historical park.Is the flux used for this type of weld borax? Anyone who is looking for tools, or wanting to learn blacksmithing volunteering at a local historical park is a good way to prospect and you get to learn using other peoples coal. Grin http://www.astorhousemuseum.org/CCHP/CCHP_home.htm |
| habu - Friday, 08/18/06 21:44:25 EDT |
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Habu, Yep, borax works just fine. You can even use brazing flux if you want, since you're really brazing using copper. Sometimes helps to mash the wire flat first, to increase surface area to volume raito, and sand it clean, too. |
| vicopper - Friday, 08/18/06 21:50:58 EDT |
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$50/hour CNC: It does seem odd that that a $100,000 machine and the carbide cutters to use in it can make money for somebody at $50/hour while a blacksmith shop with presumably lower overhead can not. |
| - Dave Boyer - Friday, 08/18/06 22:15:52 EDT |
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$50/hr CNC just barely makes money making the right products. Precision products and products that need precision in quantity but cannot afford $200,000 die costs for injection molding are profitable by avoiding the die costs. Same with some laser and plasma cutting as apposed to punch and die work. But when the quantities hit a certain level CNC is too expnesive and the old standby production die methods come into play. Per part costs also drop. . . The more precision the end product the more profitable CNC becomes. This is especially true where parts would be cast or forged THEN machined significanly. CNC can often avoid that preliminary process. The reason the single $50/hr CNC machine makes more profit than a $50/hr blacksmith shop is that the CNC machine has more produictive hours in the day. Most small shops I know have at least two machines earning $50/hr EACH or more while attended by ONE machinist. And many of these machines are priced in the $25,000 range rather than $100,000. The class of work and the amount of hand work involved is what makes the profitability different. I have a friend that produces a CNC product machined from high quality aluminium plate. Roughly 20 parts are machined from one plate (one stock change for 20 pieces). These are then run through a vibratory finisher for an hour or so and then sent to the anodizer. The parts are then bagged and ready to sell. Several machines run at one time and labor per part is very negligable. The parts sell for $50 each so there is $1000 worth coming off the machine per setup. I do not know how long each part takes but the machines run mostly unattended. |
| - guru - Friday, 08/18/06 23:37:16 EDT |
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4.5" grinders. They may have been around but I had not seen them at the time. You also have to remember that many of the nifty face flap wheels for them that make them so useful are relativly new. They even make little masonary saws for them. . . When I finished my blocks I did not just dust off the sandy surface and parting flash. They were ground to about a 64 RMS or better finish all over. The costly abrasives were the big Norton flap wheels. They rapidly conformed to the shapes being ground and put on an exceptional finish. These were also fairly heavy blocks 4" thick which tend to have more sand texture than smaller blocks. They were cast in ductile iron and were as close to perfect as castings come. The same foundry was making four to eight ton castings for us at the time. The old foundries used facing sand on this type casting and got excellent finishes that needed very little or no dressing. The big old industrial block I have has a near paper smooth finish on all surfaces and other than chipping off the fine flash had no further finishing. This was typical of old blocks. It is sad that you cannot get the same quality any longer. Folks that do a lot of hand grinding and finishing usualy figure out the techniques to make flat smooth surfaces. But I have seen some that even with coaching could never understand that working at too steep an angle and in the wrong direction can just make flaws deeper and create more work or never get the desired results. Keeping the tool moving steadily is critical to avoid making things worse. Also a light touch is required. Working with the cut diagonal to the edges and then reversing it to the opposite direction makes flat surfaces the quickest. Working in an organized manner is critical and I think the violent noise and vibration of heavy grinders makes many folks go blank so that they forget to THINK about what they are doing. . . |
| - guru - Saturday, 08/19/06 00:05:23 EDT |
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Grinders definitely are infernal machines. Wear hearing protection! |
| adam - Saturday, 08/19/06 10:26:16 EDT |
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Habu, COPPER BRAZE When the copper melts, it helps to quickly apply pressure between hammer an anvil without striking, just press. Or squeeze in the vise jaws. The pressure enhances the capillarity. Then, to clean the braze, give the work a ½ to 1 second water quench. This will pop and raise scale oxides, and by then the copper should be frozen (no longer molten) and you can wire brush the hecky darn out of it on all sides. DIE GRINDERS. The directions on my Makita say to move it from the right to the left when in use. It can be grabby if you move it the other way. Also, I always wear earmuffs when I use it, not just for hearing protection, but to keep the sharp, tiny burrs out of my ears. |
| Frank Turley - Saturday, 08/19/06 11:28:27 EDT |
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Right to left: In milling going the same direction as the cutter would "walk" is known as "climb cutting" and can leave a rough surface as well as try to drag the cutter along and cause chatter. With die grinder cutters (rotary files) climb cutting will try to pull the tool out of your hand and WILL DO SO if you do not have a very firm grip. Climb cutting can be beneficial with a VERY light cut. This requres both a light touch and a very firm grip which is difficult to master. It is best to avoid with rotary files especially in holes. The worst problem I have had with die grinders is in holes. I broke a B&D electric die grinder when it grabbed in a hole (in wood) and whipped around ONE very fast turn in the hole. The motor to gear box screws could not take the inertia and ripped out of the housing. . . Light weight air powered die grinders are much better in this respect as they do not have the overhung motor mass. Bad things can happen and they survive. The worst time I have had with a die grinder was at the eye doctors. . . he had just removed a rust spot. No problem. But then I saw him pull back with his miniature die grinder type tool and all I could think of was that tool whipping around my eye ball. . . I fainted and they had to carry me out. I thought it was very odd as there had been no pain and everything was all over. . . until I saw the little motorized tool. . . Folks without experiance with them wouldn't think twice about it. But I did. |
| - guru - Saturday, 08/19/06 13:59:50 EDT |
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I have to agree that there is a lot more to grinding than you would think. You think of grinding as a grunt job anyone can do, but in reality, grinding takes a much more delicate touch than welding, or cutting, or running a drill press. And some people never do get it- I have had guys work for me that would always gouge everything they tried it on- they didnt realize you let the grinder do the work, you dont have to try to push it right thru the metal. In my shop, its often me that does the finish grinding- even though traditionl business logic would say let the lowest paid employee do it. I have been lucky enough over the years to have a couple of guys who had the touch- and it looks like my current new hire, a student at the local welding college, may turn into one of those. |
| - ries - Saturday, 08/19/06 14:30:46 EDT |
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Never, never, EVER chuck a needle file into a die grinder. Don't ask how I know this. |
| Miles Undercut - Saturday, 08/19/06 15:29:22 EDT |
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Or, for that matter, ANY round file, either. |
| Miles Undercut - Saturday, 08/19/06 17:46:58 EDT |
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Antiquing: What is the best way to antique a blade without buying a chemical? I've heard of using mustard, mayo, and stewed tomatoes. Any input on how these work? Do you sand the blade afterwards, or just leave it? I want aged (pitted, eaten away look), but not rusty. |
| - Rob - Saturday, 08/19/06 18:50:32 EDT |
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Rob, hammer scale into it, and sand off the high spots. That's one way. Are you from the Ocmulgee bs guild by any chance? |
| - Tyler Murch - Saturday, 08/19/06 20:52:58 EDT |
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Why don't any of the new swage blocks have holes that go all the way through like the old ones????????????? Those are the handiest kind for me. |
| - Tyler Murch - Saturday, 08/19/06 20:54:51 EDT |
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I need some help identifying an antique anvil a friend of mine has for sale. the only markings visible are a six pointed star with diamond in the center on the side and a number 10 under neath the horn the hardie hole is approx. 5/8 with a pritchel hole of approx. 3/8 the anvil has good rebound and ring but i am curious as to the maker and approx. date any help woud be greatly appreciated |
| john bankston - Saturday, 08/19/06 22:11:58 EDT |
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Tyler Murch, The new blocks don't have through holes because they must be cored during the casting, and that costs big bucks commpared to a center-part cope and drag casting. Coring a casting takes core molds and knowing exactly what you're doing, something that modern foundries don't have. In the old days, the "apprentice test" for sand casting was to cast, in one piece a teacup and saucer, with a teaspoon in the cup and a sugar cube in the bowl of the spoon. Casting that item took skill at core making, parting and multi-part boxing. I seriously doubt that there are more than a dozen founders in the US today who could do it. These days, most foundries only want to do investment casting. |
| vicopper - Saturday, 08/19/06 22:46:10 EDT |
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Die Grinders & holes: The grinding wheel or burr should be 1/2 the diameter of the hole You are grinding OR SMALLER. This keeps the wheel from trying to run around the inside of the hole and causing the problem Jock mentioned. It is also necesairy to keep the wheel contact area small enough for efficient stock removal. |
| Dave Boyer - Saturday, 08/19/06 22:48:28 EDT |
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Modern sand casting: Today a lot of low production castings are made with a once and done styrofoam pattern that burns out when the molten metal is poured in. In high production the foam is cast in a permanant tool. The foam pattern may be cast in several parts and assembled so that complex shapes can be made with the permanant tooling. |
| Dave Boyer - Saturday, 08/19/06 22:54:04 EDT |
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John Bankston: You may have discovered a previously unknown anvil brand. According to Anvils in America by Richard Postman only two brands were known to use a star in their logo. The American Star and a Swedish North Star. Both are five-point stars. A six-pointed star would certainly seem to have a Jewish connection. The 10 likely indicates an initial weight of 100 pounds, but, for a U.S. or British anvil, at least the hardy hole size is small for what was commonly used for that size - at least 3/4". If the logo and 10 are raised it indicates a cast body, perhaps one-piece cast or cast iron body with a steel plate. If cast, the anvil might have come from any number of foundries, perhaps as an attempt by them to enter the anvil market or as a special order for a customer. This might be particularly true if a one-piece cast since only a fairly small number are known to have mastered putting a steel plate on a cast iron body. If you can provide some good photographs from four sides and bottom and close-up of the logo I'll forward them to Richard Postman. Just click on name and provide as attachments. |
| Ken Scharabok - Sunday, 08/20/06 01:15:07 EDT |
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Hello.i have 3 question 1- what is the maximum temperature to which medium carbon steel must be heated prior to quenching if maximum possible hardness is desired? 2- what is the maximum temperature to which meium carbon steel must be cooled prior to quench if maximum possible hardness is desired? 3- what is the rule of thumb in regards of carbon content when selecting heat treated steel? |
| kei - Sunday, 08/20/06 06:30:30 EDT |
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John Bankston: Added: If cast, a good ring may indicate possibly cast steel. |
| Ken Scharabok - Sunday, 08/20/06 07:46:42 EDT |
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Kei, This sounds suspiciously like a homework question, which we normally don't care to answer. I'll give you a blacksmith's view; I am not a metallurgist. Depending on which book you read, a medium carbon steel has a carbon content from about 0.30% to 0.55%. Quenching in water or brine is recommended. As examples, AISI/SAE 1030 is hardened at 1550-1600ºF. 1040 is hardened at 1500=-1550ºF. 1050 is hardened at 1475-1525ºF. I can't answer your #2 question, but our shop practice is to agitate the piece in the quenchant and bring it out when it quits "churning"; supposedly, that helps prevent cracks. You can hear and feel the churning which is vapor evolving, etc., under water. When that ceases, you're usually at about 150-200ºF. There are many rules of thumb, depending on what the end-use is. I would check "Machinery's Handbook". Also, some tool steel catalogs will contain a "tool steel selector" or guide suggesting which steel to use for a particular job. If you're dealing with plain carbon steels and not alloys, you'll want information on AISI/SAE W1 high carbon tool steel. W1 often is listed in the catalogs as containing from 0.70% to 1.3% carbon, so you must specify the carbon content when you order it. |
| Frank Turley - Sunday, 08/20/06 08:42:21 EDT |
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Greetings, I am looking to comunicate with someone that Has knowledge about erie self contained forging hammers. I have a #300 self contained Erie hammer that is sick and I have not found anyone that has even seen one. If you know any one that has one please send me there info on getting together with them. |
| David Norrie - Sunday, 08/20/06 09:29:44 EDT |
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Tyler; I've used this method before, but it didn't give me quite the same effect. What is the Ocmulgee bs guild? |
| - Rob - Sunday, 08/20/06 09:55:23 EDT |
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David, I have no experiance with these particular hammers but in general this type and other pneumatic hammers are very sensitive to valve wear. When new the valves were VERY snug fits and with time they wear and corrode. This includes both the throttle valve and the reciprocating valve. Wear in the reciprocating valve greatly effects performance and air consumption. Next is the resciprocating valve linkage. Any back lash in the pivots will make the hammer run jerky and be hard to control. The total travel of the valve is vairly short and a little wear in each pivot can add up to a significant percentage. Repair of the valves is often done by spray metalizing to build up and then precision grinding to fit. Worn linkage is either drilled and reamed for oversize pins or bushed. Also note that when converted to air these machines MUST have a lubricator that injects oil. |
| - guru - Sunday, 08/20/06 10:05:50 EDT |
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Rob, See ABANA-Chapter.com for a link to the Guild. |
| - guru - Sunday, 08/20/06 10:06:53 EDT |
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what do most of you guys charge an hour for welding and fabrication/blacksmithing work ? |
| mark - Sunday, 08/20/06 10:29:01 EDT |
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Will 5160 make a good cross peen hammer? At what size should I go from oil to water quench? Or maybe a heated brine rather than water. |
| - Tyler Murch - Sunday, 08/20/06 10:38:43 EDT |
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Modern Foundry Work: The problem as noted is largely lack of skill. But the other problem is that swage blocks and other small quantity castings are considered nuisance jobs. Unless you are buying a significant amount of a foundry's annual production you are just a bother. I even had one foundry tell me that sorting out MY castings from his regular work at the end of the day was a nuisance. Cored holes require not only the core boxes and making the cores but for the moldmaker to carefully place each core and close the mold without upsetting the core. The more cores the more likely that one will get fouled up. Making and setting cores takes time and increases the chances of a bad casting greatly. Small cores also have the problem of burn through and most foundries today refuse cores of less than 1" in blocks. I know for a fact that holes as small as 7/16 (10 mm) WERE CAST in blocks. To avoid cores one swage block maker put heavily drafted (tapered) holes in the pattern so the large holes were part of a two piece mold. The taper was much more than just draft. This results in large ugly holes that have little practical use. You can ocasionaly find these being sold on ebay. In the old days a casting that needed a fine finish had the pattern first covered with a thin layer of fine sand called "facing sand". Then the regular sand which must be quite coarse for swage blocks was placed in the flask and rammed up. Cores would be coverd with a coating of a fine refractory material. This was all skilled work that takes time. Today it IS POSSIBLE to apply a coating to the mold to improve the finish. However, this is still one of those extra steps that iron foundries do not normaly do so it would increase the nuisance factor greatly. Today foundries often do not even deal with patterns and flasks at all. Even boarded patterns are now passe'. They want mold boxes that produce a complete mold from resin bonded sand. The mold boxes must have registration for both pieces plus the impressions for the part. There is no loose "pattern". The mold makers are unskilled laborers that dump sand into the boxes from a chute, tamp it with a big pneumatic tamper then move on. Mold parts are removed from the boxes, assembled, clamped together and they are ready to pour. The process has been reduced to where any monkey can do it. . . In this environment there is no need to keep a skilled worker on the payroll for the few nuisance jobs that come around. All the skill is in the patternmakers shop. I've had large foam investment castings made. The shop that cast them specialized in them so they were not a nuisance job. However, these were castings that weighed TONS. . . the money was in the large amount of iron per casting. Centaur forge sells blocks with holes. They cost as much or more per pound as good anvils. |
| - guru - Sunday, 08/20/06 10:42:53 EDT |
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Tyler, I'm guessing that 5160 might make a servicible hammer. All specs say that it's an "oil hardening spring steel". I don't think I'd guess about the quenchant. Use oil at 1525ºF, a bright cherry red. You may get a case-core effect after quenching, meaning that you'll get full hardness for maybe 1/8" in from the surface, and a tough core inside of that. That's OK though, because you will temper the hard case (having nothing to do with "case hardening"). The terminology is confusing. After tempering, you should have a nice tough hammer head and peen. In making springs, the temper is usually drawn between 800ºF and 1300ºF. You will need to experiment, because I suspect you'll be tempering between 450ºF and 600ºF. The reason that we're guesstimating here is because all the specs you're going to run across will be talking about springs, not tools. Francis Witaker used to say, "Don't make tools out of spring steel; make springs out of spring steel." I know. I know. Lots of guys make knives and tools out of 5160. However, it's a spring steel. One of my books says that it can be also be used for "scrapers, equalizers, and bumpers." |
| Frank Turley - Sunday, 08/20/06 11:21:06 EDT |
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David Norrie: IS it a self-contained hammer? Like with it's own motor and built-in compressor? I know Erie made self-contained hammers, but I've never seen one. They bought the design from Beaudry & Co. What sort of problems are you having? |
| - grant - Sunday, 08/20/06 11:26:54 EDT |
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David Norrie: There is a 600-lb Erie listed on eBay now: 170019299707. |
| Ken Scharabok - Sunday, 08/20/06 11:47:48 EDT |
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Frank, 5160 Bumpers One of my bladesmith friends got some bumpers from automated vehicles from a nuclear power plant. They are 3/8" x 4" and 5160. |
| - Tyler Murch - Sunday, 08/20/06 12:54:04 EDT |
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This Hammer is from the late 30's, I think. I have talked to Erie Presses which made them and they don't even have it on record. It is a self contained with a 15 HP motor inside. The stroke on this hammer is 17" and when you step on the tradle, the hammer slowly comes down and hits very soft with about a 3" stroke. Now the hammer comes down and the stroke stay long and when it gets to the bottom when the dies hit, as you push down more the dies lift up away and the stroke gets longer until it starts to hit hard. I basically have lost the soft hitting. It hits hard. I have taken most of it apart and the inside is brand new looking, all the rings are perfect, so it is a mistery, I have been in contact with all the people I know that rebuild older air Hammers and they sre stumped. I have been using this hammer 18 years and it is the first time there ahas been anything wrong. It is not the same as a Nazel, or Chambersberg. Ken, the Erie on Ebay is a utility Hammer as I have been told. I hope this makes sense. |
| David Norrie - Sunday, 08/20/06 13:17:01 EDT |
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Tyler, As I understand it, brine gives a faster quench than water because the salt raises the boiling point and retards the formation of a steam jacket. Heating the brine should slow the quench by bringing the solution nearer its boiling point and also reducing the temperature differential between quench and steel. I suppose you could heat brine to the point where it would quench at the same speed as water. But why bother? |
| Mike B - Sunday, 08/20/06 16:05:13 EDT |
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Ken; first thing I thought of when I read "six pointed star" was Iron City post vises used that star IIRC. I wonder if they did an anvil sometime as well---no Jewish connection that I know of with the Iron City Logo. Thomas |
| Thomas P - Sunday, 08/20/06 16:34:00 EDT |
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I have to speak out in defence of modern foundries. Yes there are a lot fewer actual moulders in most foundries. But lots of places have a couple of guys (not all of them are old) who know how to mould loose and tricky patterns. As to them knowing how to set cores. I have made or worked on patterns that have lots of cores. Take a look at a locomotive undercarriage next time one goes by. They are hollow, there are 70 to over 100 cores in each mold. One of my customers has 3 aluminum cups and saucers sitting on their boardroom table another cast 5 statues from wooden statues that were full of cracks and undercuts these all had to be reproduced. The drag half or the mould had close to 100 separate cores that were all parted off by the moulder. Here is a picture of one of the statues that were moulded www.tiesenhausen.net/Figures/004.html . Facing sand is still used but sometimes in moulding machines it can only be used in the drag. I have seen lots of flaws in older castings. Swage blocks were often machined on the two flat sides. While ductile iron is a far stronger material and better for swage blocks, it is less fluid than grey iron and thus slightly finer detail can be reproduced in grey iron. The costs of running a foundry are very high and patterns are one of the tools that they use. It is very easy to spend a lot of time trying to get a good mould off an unknown pattern. If there is not much money to be made off the castings then they can lose money very quickly. Many factories will not deal with small orders these days. Yes most foundries want want mounted patterns. But I still make lots of loose patterns for large castings. |
| - JNewman - Sunday, 08/20/06 16:57:32 EDT |
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Erie Hammer Problems: David, I would suggest talking to Bob Bergman if you have not already done so. I know he has rebuilt a large variety of air hammers, so maybe he can help. Do an internet search for either Old World Anvils, or Postville Blacksmith Shop to find his contact info. You might also try Bruce Wallace at Wallace Metal Works, who is an advertiser here. In addition, you may want to look at a copy of "The Hammerman's Emporium" by Douglas Freund, author of Pounding Out the Profits. The "Emporium" is a collection of manufacturer's literature covering air and steam hammers. There might be a useful tid-bit in there. Patrick |
| patrick nowak - Sunday, 08/20/06 17:58:16 EDT |
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JNewman is right, and so is the GURU. Most foundries won't nwork on special or low production runs, and there are few real moulders left. But they are not ALL gone. The trick is to find the right foundry. I used to have a foundry here that let me make up a mold for them to pour, they charged me by the pound. When the owner retired and the sons took over, they automated and moved to higher production runs, but kept doing some huge one ofs that were profitable. I can't go into the production area any more. |
| - John Odom - Sunday, 08/20/06 20:21:33 EDT |
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Since sandcasting is such a lost art, and sandcast takes a ton of finishing, perhaps a nice investment cast swage block may be feasible. The accuracy and finish is superb and the thru holes would not be too tuff. Might be able to shoot the wax in a reinforced rubber mold. I have a modern swage block I got from Honest Bob, and it sure beats no swage block, even if it does not have through holes. I have some 2 1/2" plate and am thinking of shooting a bunch of holes in one for a home made swage/bloster. |
| Ptree - Sunday, 08/20/06 20:39:23 EDT |
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Mike, Why bother? Well, it will quench as fast as water, but not make any of those steam pockets. It's like a more reliable quench I spose. Learned that from a very well known bladesmith. |
| - Tyler Murch - Sunday, 08/20/06 20:44:52 EDT |
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Actually I think the swage block of the future will be forged- Old Mr. Sarver could easily use his CNC Mill/ EDM technology to create a master, and his 100 ton fly press to forge the appropriate (non thru) depressions in a flame cut blank. Flame cut all the edge profiles, then forge the two big sides. |
| - ries - Sunday, 08/20/06 20:47:34 EDT |
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Hi Gurus! What is the Canadian/North American number/name of a bronze alloy that can be forged and tig welded? Where would I find a supplier? Please send answer to duerst@gmail.com. Thank you so much. Whoever you guys are, you must eat steel and metal, because you seemed to know everything. My respect!!!! duerst |
| duerst - Sunday, 08/20/06 21:57:24 EDT |
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Patrick, thank you, Bob is the one that I have talked to the most. He is a old friend, and I bought a 5B nazel from Bruce, so I am in touch. No one has seen this type of hammer. I will continue. |
| David Norrie - Sunday, 08/20/06 22:49:03 EDT |
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guru i do have a job i went to school for tin knoking and welding got a job as a welder been doing that for a year now metal work didnt iterest me when i was young but i got to welding and now i got metal in my blood i was a painter not much money in that i also have four kids and that is why i was looking for getting started on th cheap i've read books The black smith by aldern a watson and one other from cover to cover i dont do thing littly and i reserch the heck out of every thing before i do it i will read the books youve sugested i've read all three of my welding books two i grabbed from the trash as tech wwas throwing them out 1967 was the youngest one. one even has my instructors name in it.i have a car but the state of maine took my lic but dont tell the cops i drive. pleasse excuse my ignorence to your trade i mean no disrespct Christopher |
| Christopher - Sunday, 08/20/06 22:52:52 EDT |
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duerst, Atlas metals in Denver is a main supplier of bronze, it is a silicon bronze, you can find them on line. |
| David Norrie - Sunday, 08/20/06 23:25:23 EDT |
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Hello there , I wanted to ask If any of you Know where In central Virginia, Is a Good Scrap Yard that Has Old Machinery Parts Like line shafts & flywheels, Old machinery that has been scraped ? also used steel plates. I have seen some steel Plate out in front of Klines welding on RT 460 East . But, they are asking the Going rate that You can get the same thing clean from BMG steel for. So If you can direct me toward a good Salvage Yard that would be wonderful. Sincerely Yours, John M. Carter |
| John M. Carter - Monday, 08/21/06 00:23:50 EDT |
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Does anyone have any plans for making my own manual section benders/ ring rollers ? |
| mark - Monday, 08/21/06 02:27:14 EDT |
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duerst, The Copper Development Association may be able to help. www.copper.org You have more than one choice. |
| Frank Turley - Monday, 08/21/06 08:17:54 EDT |
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Water jet cut swage blocks? |
| Frank Turley - Monday, 08/21/06 08:24:57 EDT |
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Guru, your harmonic dinner bell design won me a blue ribbon at the Grange Fair yesterday. I just wanted to let you know and to thank you for the design idea. The little lady won a third prize for her banana bread, and I won an additional third prize for Largets single sunflower head. None of my herbs won anything. :( Anyway, thanks once again, I'll let you know when I'm ready for next year. |
| - Nippulini - Monday, 08/21/06 10:13:18 EDT |
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Sheet metal snips. Looking to buy some good quality aviation snips and tinner's snips. What do people recommend? Thanks |
| adam - Monday, 08/21/06 10:50:17 EDT |
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Thomas P: Yep, I probably jumped to a possible conclusion on a six-pointed star likely being Jewish-related. I looked up an Iron City logo on eBay. Anvil has a diamond within star while they have IRON over CITY. Sure would like to see photos of that anvil. |
| Ken Scharabok - Monday, 08/21/06 11:53:34 EDT |
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I'm trying vinegar and water for antiquing, and it's going well. How can I get the rust off without ruining the aged look, i.e. polishing it at all? |
| - Rob - Monday, 08/21/06 12:12:20 EDT |
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Rob, Is'nt the rust the point? Washing with baking soda and water will kill the acid and rinse off the loose rust. |
| - guru - Monday, 08/21/06 12:46:00 EDT |
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Forged Blocks: I have looked at tooling for such a venture. You want to start with a common cylindrical blank that flows to fill the impression. This is cheap and efficient and if cut just the right length will not quite fill the corners leaving nice soft round edges. The die sides can fit in a tapered holder so that the sides are draftless. Takes a BIG hammer even for small blocks. But it would make very nice 10 - 20 pound blocks with a reasonable sized hammer (around 1,000 pounds). Die cost would not be too outrageous either. But it is still a significant setup. Would need a part ejector and scale blow out. Complete setup would want a dedicated hammer or you would setup and run a large batch of blocks (annual output) before tearing down the setup. I'm not sure one if the 100 ton fly presses would do it. Maybe, but I do not have a feel for it. |
| - guru - Monday, 08/21/06 13:01:38 EDT |
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Snips- I am still a big fan of Wiss- for their old style plain blade snips. I have a set of Wiss Bulldogs W5N 16 1/2" snips I use most of any snip in the drawer. The added weight and long handle length make cutting straight lines in sheet metal much easier- leverage really helps. I like Klenk for the aviation snips- I think they are much better than the wiss, or any others, and they are made in america. www.klenktools.com |
| - ries - Monday, 08/21/06 13:11:52 EDT |
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Bronze- Most blacksmiths like silicon bronze- thats C655. It forges well, and tig welds very nicely. Besides Atlas in Denver, already mentioned, a good place that stocks a lot and will ship is Alaskan Copper and Brass. This stuff is not cheap. Price will vary depending on shape- round bars are MUCH cheaper than flat or square. Many shapes that are common in steel are not available at all in bronze, unless you order a truckload- 40,000lbs at six to ten bucks a pound adds up fast. It is worth it though, to pay the money for a known alloy- trying to forge a bronze alloy that has too much zinc in it, or significant amounts of lead, will drive you to frustration faster than any other method. New swear words will be invented, and expensive material ends up in interesting shaped puddles on the floor. |
| - ries - Monday, 08/21/06 13:15:59 EDT |
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Erie - Beaudry Hammer: I do not know if he has anything on this hammer but Bruce Wallace has the Beaudry information that is available and I have seen a photo of the Beaudry Self Contained hammer. Seems that the hammer LOOKS different than a Nazel but the cylinder and valving is very similar (maybe a copy). |
| - guru - Monday, 08/21/06 13:18:57 EDT |
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In thicker materials, like 4" steel, most water jet machines leave a much bigger draft angle than old fashioned oxy-fuel. Now there are some newfangled waterjet machines that use a computer feedback circuit to angle the head as it turns around the piece, actually cutting an angle that counter affects the draft angle- but we are talking a quarter million and up here- twice or more the price of a normal waterjet. Waterjet is great for thin materials, like up to an inch or so, or materials that cannot be cut with other techniques, like aluminum/carbon fiber honeycombs, or rubber shoe soles, or cork, or for patterns with 50 thousandth of an inch wide lines in them. But for cutting plain old fashioned thick sheets of steel, oxy fuel is still used the most in industry. I think it makes the most sense to torch cut the perimeter of a swage block- with CNC torches, and current technology, the edge quality is amazingly good- then you would only need to forge the depressions on the two big flat sides. But Grant is the man who really knows- if a project like this were to catch his fancy, he could figure it out quite easily. |
| - ries - Monday, 08/21/06 13:21:57 EDT |
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By the way- Alaskan Copper is NOT in Alaska- they warehouse in Seattle and Portland Oregon. So shipping to anywhere in the USA is not TOO expensive. And unless you live in a few big cities, you will have to pay shipping on bronze- its just too oddball and expensive for many people to stock it. Farmers Copper in Texas and Copper and brass sales which has warehouses all over the country also may stock it. |
| - ries - Monday, 08/21/06 13:25:48 EDT |
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Brass / Bronze: See our FAQ on the same. Forging brass alloy #377 has a forgability rating of 100, the industry "standard". I concur with Ries about knowing the alloy you are working with. The critical thing about brass/bronze is that you work it just below the point where it falls apart. So it is VERY helpful to have some controlled heat source. I've done it with a torch and careful obsevation and only lost a couple parts. A friend has forged loads of it using coal and only lost maybe 2 to 5%. . . Significant losses of expensive metal. Not sure why folks want to TIG weld brass/bronze. It welds easily enough with Oxy-acetylene. I've welded a small mountain of 1/2" square. . . |
| - guru - Monday, 08/21/06 13:34:05 EDT |
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Forged Blocks: Ries, the problem is the material must GO somewhere when you forge depressions. The best place is to fill the die. But if you start with a near-net shape plate and try to put in depressions you end up needing to hold the part in a die and work it hard enough to encrease the entire thickness (upsetting). It is not a very good way to go. The problem I have found with flame cut block blanks is that even with very fine flame cutting they need a lot of dressing and the stop/start point repaired. This is on top of a relatively high initial cost. THEN you have depressiona and holes to machine. It can be done but the total costs are quite high. Casting is still the ideal way to go. However, neither foam or wax investments cure the core hole problem. You would THINK they would but this does not address the fact that the cores need to be a different material and reinforced. |
| - guru - Monday, 08/21/06 14:11:04 EDT |
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Ah yes, the old constant volume problem- the pesky metal has to go somewhere. No matter how you skin this particular cat, costs are high. And demand is not particularly large. I have one of John Newmans swage blocks, and I like it a lot- but I dont use it too much. As to tig welding- once you have lived with a tig welder for a few years, or 25 of em in my case- you tend to use it for most things. I, too have oxy welded my share of stuff, and I avoid it when possible. The fine control over heat input with a tig welder makes it my tool of choice for just about any metal. I use my oxy-fuel rig for heating with the rosebud, and not much else. But I have two tig machines running most days, in our 3 man shop. We tig mild, stainless, copper alloys, aluminum, and even some pot metal alloys. I like the clean and neat, quiet and tidy aspects of it, I like being able to tig weld inside finished spaces- we had a job a while ago where we had to weld inside a carpeted library, with all the smoke detectors on. With tig, there was no spatter, no hot stuff flying around, no smoke to speak of, and we welded within 2" of finished wood floors, carpets, and finely finished wooden handrails. Of course, we used a heat proof welding blanket to sheild stuff, but the ease and safety, along with the speed, makes it far preferable to gas welding for me in most circumstances. I have tig welded in 80 foot manlifts, at the tops of ladders, inside vehicles, in basements, commercial kitchens, and all kinds of other oddball spaces where I would hesitate to use a gas torch. Part of it, I am sure, is what you are used to, but I find that for things like copper alloys that conduct heat very well, the ability to put 300 amps in a 1/8" circle, and then feather it down to weld a 3/4" square to 16 gage sheet is often quite handy. |
| - ries - Monday, 08/21/06 14:49:37 EDT |
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TIG - I suspect that quality of equipment has a lot to do with it as well as practice. I have a primitive Airco add-on unit on my multipurpose welder. The thimble valve has been a constant nusiance and the unit does not seem to adjust well. I have a difficult enough time welding similar sized pieces together. |