| WELCOME to the anvilfire Guru's Den - V. 3.0 |
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THIS is a forum for questions and answers about blacksmithing and general metalworking. Ask the Guru any reasonable question and he or one of his helpers will answer your question, find someone that can, OR research the question for you. This is an archive of posts from September 9 - 17, 2003 on the Guru's Den |
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Hi! I just bought a wrought iron flip grill setup at the Yankee Peddler Festival in Canal Fulton, OH for my husband to use over our campfire in the backyard. It is VERY heavy made out of thick wrought iron-the blacksmith was making them right in front of us-very cool, I give you guys alot of credit!! Anyways, I forgot to ask him how to keep it from rusting-we plan to keep it up year round. It has the spit setup, with a grill underneath that is right over the fire. Should I rub it/season it with mineral oil or some other kind of oil? Would I have to repeat this after every use? I assume that it's not desirable to have it rust, and then get rust in your food?! Any and all help/suggestions would be appreciated!! Thanks! |
| Lori - Tuesday, 09/09/03 00:25:22 EDT |
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Atli, you carry the axe and I will carry a long bow.... :) I would much rather be able to 'reach out and touch ' someone... |
| Ralph - Tuesday, 09/09/03 02:39:45 EDT |
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Lori; Crisco oil or Mazola would be ok. If you have a gas grill with cast iron grates, read the instruction manual. They would be treated pretty much the same way. Yes, oil it up after every use, and when you use it the next time, heat it up to smoke off the old oil and apply fresh oil to keep yer Porterhouse from sticking. Then you get in touch with me, and I'll come over and help you get rid of the steak. (Grin) If you want to see a BUNCH of us doin' magic, come on down to the Southern Ohio Forge & Anvil Blacksmiths Roundup at the Miami County Fairgrounds in Troy, Ohio on September 27 & 28. We'll have you and the old man makin' yer own BBQ equipment, once we get some coal smoke up yer nose and get you hooked. Best regards, 3dogs |
| 3dogs - Tuesday, 09/09/03 02:47:26 EDT |
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RALPH; You guys carry your stuff, and I'll carry my authentic Viking 12 ga. (Mossberg) If I can't hit 'em, at least i'll deafen 'em! |
| 3dogs - Tuesday, 09/09/03 02:59:45 EDT |
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i have just got my first anvil. I am female so please bear with the symbolic nature of this email. But i had advertised for an anvil in the local paper and i had a call from a gentleman who had one but wanted $500 australian for it i thought that was way to expensive for myself so i declined. Then i decided i really wanted one. So i started phoning around and an antique dealer said that he knew a man who had one who also owned an antique shop. So after much persistance i found this man.( i had to travel to a neighbouring town) The man that i found with the anvil was actually a really good friend of my grandfathers back in the very old days (very small world) and because he was such good friends with my grandfather he decided to give me the anvil.....but wait for it........this man after some more talking i found out was the man that had phoned me with the $500 anvil so i got a $500 anvil for nothing. i suppose you would really want to know about the anvil now..its a soderfors with something like BRKSAB stamped next to the soderfors and falun sweden stamped under that it is a 101 lb probably not really worth $500 australian but anvils are very hard to come by down under. so if anyone could tell me some history i would love to here it. But i really think i have the best anvil finding story going at present. cheers from australia |
| Banjo - Tuesday, 09/09/03 08:51:48 EDT |
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Ralph, y'all go out and play with the sharp pointy stuff; I'll stay at the forge, console the widows, and let folks like you pour gold on me for *more* sharp pointy things. Ketil |
| - Thomas Powers - Tuesday, 09/09/03 09:44:46 EDT |
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Banjo I think I come in second. I found a 30# arm and hammer anvil at a garage sale and when I asked how much he wanted the guy scounged around and brought out 3 different sizes of forging hammers and said how about 5 dollars for everything. |
| Chris Makin - Tuesday, 09/09/03 09:48:00 EDT |
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"Wood Pellets" Coal up around my area is getting harder to find. Has anyone used wood pellet as a heat source. They are in very good supply here @ 5$ Cdn per 100lb bag. I use charcaol lots here during the summer months. As I keep my coal for demo purposes. North Bay Ont Canada in case anybody wants to drop some coal off some day.. But call first. Cheers. 'Barney' |
| Barney - Tuesday, 09/09/03 11:25:37 EDT |
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"Axles" Eat your wheates in the morining Scott.. I made a few bicker irons for my anvil. Truck parts are good but be ready to hammer if you have no power hammer. Mine are done by hand and turned out well.... Cheers |
| Barney - Tuesday, 09/09/03 12:10:15 EDT |
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Barney, We forge those heavy truck axles in i hit to upset the spline end, and 4 hits for the flange end. Course we use an upsetter that hits about 2500 tons a lick. we forge axles for off road stuff with about a 24" diameter flange, and it still takes about 4 licks. |
| - jeff reinhardt - Tuesday, 09/09/03 12:56:14 EDT |
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Barney, We forge those heavy truck axles in i hit to upset the spline end, and 4 hits for the flange end. Course we use an upsetter that hits about 2500 tons a lick. we forge axles for off road stuff with about a 24" diameter flange, and it still takes about 4 licks. |
| jeff reinhardt - Tuesday, 09/09/03 12:56:14 EDT |
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Barney, We forge those heavy truck axles in i hit to upset the spline end, and 4 hits for the flange end. Course we use an upsetter that hits about 2500 tons a lick. we forge axles for off road stuff with about a 24" diameter flange, and it still takes about 4 licks. |
| jeff reinhardt - Tuesday, 09/09/03 12:56:40 EDT |
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Sölderfors Anvil: Banjo, These are a Swedish anvil. Sölderfors claims to have been making anvils since 1200AD (Richard Postman). In the US they were sold under the names Sölderfors and Paragon. They also made anvils for Columbian Hardware Company. Sölderfors Bruks Akkticbolog is the company's full name and they are located in Falum, Sweden. Most are solid steel and may be cast or forged. They are considered a very good anvil. Yep, anvils are where you find them. I spent YEARS looking for my first anvil. I have been given three anvils and at one time I think I had 8 or 10. Now I am down to two large anvils and three junk anvils, plus a couple stake anvils. . . . However, it DOES seem that after obtaining your first anvil more follow. |
| - guru - Tuesday, 09/09/03 12:57:19 EDT |
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Banjo. Very nice way to get that first anvil! I have been to Oz five times and it is one of the few places on the planet I would return to. You have a beautiful country and the people of Australia are wonderful. If this is your fist visit to Anvilfire, please return often. You will not find a better site for learning, sharing, and good friends. |
| quenchcrack - Tuesday, 09/09/03 13:26:57 EDT |
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I am an over 16 yrs old wire jewelry designer. I also make hammered necklace type collars using 14kt gold-filled and sterling silver 1/4 inch 1/2 round wire. I have a neck-shaped mandrel, and use a brass hammer to form the collars. No heating is required. A customer asked me to make one of these collars in 14kt gold and I of course said "no problem". Well, the gold arrived, and there's a problem. I just learned that 14kt gold cannot be shaped cold like gold filled. I obviously need to heat the gold to make it pliable enough to shape and get a hand hammered look. I am willing to buy the equipment, but I have not idea what to do. Help! |
| Gina - Tuesday, 09/09/03 16:08:02 EDT |
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jeff: Is that really 2500 tons = 5 million pounds on the upsetter hammer? Yikes! Banjo: Nice anvil story! It must give a warm, friendly feeling to your start. I dont know prices in Australia but in the US it probably would fetch the equivalent of $500 AUS. Like QC says - y'all come now :) |
| adam - Tuesday, 09/09/03 16:25:47 EDT |
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Well, it's my time to brag. (grin) A few years back, one of my foster sons was in a warehouse where a friend was selling off his father's and grandfather's estate. Joe saw an anvil sitting on the ground and paused to ring it. He asked the guy how much he wanted for it, and the guy said that he didn't know how much it was worth, but would Joe give him $25 for it. Joe commented that there were a few small chips on the side, but "Jim can probably fix them." so he gave him the money and loaded the 105# Mousehole anvil in the trunk of the car. Sent it to me from Texas in his Father -in-law's truck. Wouldn't let me pay him for it, just said that when I was done with it, it was his. So I got it for free. and I'm still using it! (grin) |
| Paw Paw - Tuesday, 09/09/03 17:16:09 EDT |
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GINA Anyway you look at it 14k gold is a very hard alloy.You will have to aneal it to make it soft but even so it is hard to work.Ive made jewelry for 20yrs mostly sterling but I do some gold now and then and made the mistake of using 14k for bezel wire now i use 18k the higher the gold content the softer it is |
| Chris Makin - Tuesday, 09/09/03 18:03:01 EDT |
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Charlie Hinton, Please send me an email, I've managed to lose your address. |
| Paw Paw - Tuesday, 09/09/03 18:04:14 EDT |
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Gold Gina, maybe one of our jewlers can help you as this is out of my field. But here are some suggestions. 1) Have you tried annealing the gold? I think the added silver work hardens so drawn or rolled stock can be quite hard. Annealing requires heating just as hot working would. This can be done with a MAPP/air torch. Heat to a low red (in low light) then quenched in water. Should be much softer. When I hot work brass it starts hot then is like working annealed as it cools. You reheat to make soft and start working at that very low red. The heating surface in the old days would be asbestoes. It was soft and wouldn't scratch the metal. Today you want to use refractory brick or Kaowool board. IF you make a corner out of brick the heat is captured and reflected back into the metal and is more efficient than on a flat surface. OR you may just need to change to a bigger steel hammer and a heavier mandrel such as the horn on a blacksmiths anvil. Blacksmiths texture steel cold all the time. On annealed or unhardened (as milled) steel a ball pien hammer can be used to create a hammered texture cold. If doing more than texturing then the steel will be worked hot OR annealed. On google the search term "14k gold annealing" came up with a large number of listings germain to the question. |
| - guru - Tuesday, 09/09/03 18:14:50 EDT |
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Swedge block cleanup: I have one of those SF castings - It's a lot of work to cleanup but I do it a bit at a time. The fuller grooves on the edges have a waist to them. I assume this is from the casting draft and they need to be widened to a constant width? I have another, old swedge that I rescued from a welding shop and the fuller grooves are all straight. Also, despite maybe 100yrs of mistreatment, the surface is still MUCH nicer than the SF casting. |
| adam - Tuesday, 09/09/03 18:33:33 EDT |
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Adam, The SF blocks are shipped in the same way that they come from the founder. Years ago, the forms were much more carefully made than they are today. But even with that caveat, that 100 year old swage probably had many hours spent on it to clean it up. The SF swage block, (in my opinion) is very good value for the money. |
| Paw Paw - Tuesday, 09/09/03 18:46:09 EDT |
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Adam, I got my SF block about a month ago and spent all day grinding and polishing. The best thing I found was the 3M disks on a mandrel that fits in your drill. Start with 60 grit and work down. I did have to use a stone on those fuller grooves and they still aren't quite straight. However, I agree with Guru, good block for the money. |
| quenchcrack - Tuesday, 09/09/03 19:14:58 EDT |
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PawPaw: Yes, quite right. I shouldn't whine. :) I do realize that if my SF block were nicely finished it would have cost a LOT more. Essentially, I bought a kit and that's fine. What did you do with the edge grooves on yours? ( I assume you own one since you rose to defend its honor? :) )Did you straighten the waists? This seems like it will be a lot of work. The spoon and bowl depressions only needed surface finishing. Also they aare much easier to get to. |
| adam - Tuesday, 09/09/03 19:16:01 EDT |
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Adam, I used a belt sander with a 60 grit aluminum oxide belt to straighten the waists out. It didn't take as long as I expected. |
| Paw Paw - Tuesday, 09/09/03 19:20:31 EDT |
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QC: Thanks for the tip. I will look for those at mcmaster. Also, thanks for the metallurgy faq at iforgeiron. We really needed something like that. I need to read it several more times but already, it has explained several things that I hadnt understood.+ |
| adam - Tuesday, 09/09/03 19:20:51 EDT |
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Hi! :-) I live in Cleveland, Ohio, and I'm looking for a blacksmith for a project that I'd like done. I'm building an addition to my house, and the addition will have a loft. I'm building a ship's ladder, and I'd like someone to make a wrought iron railing for it. The design looks fairly simple. So.....I'm looking either for a blacksmith in the Northeast Ohio area or for a blacksmith somewhere else who won't charge me an arm and a leg for shipping costs. I'd appreciate any help anyone can give me in locating a blacksmith. My email is: timwarneka@yahoo.com Warm regards, Tim |
| Tim - Tuesday, 09/09/03 21:11:01 EDT |
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Thank you for the tips. I'm going to give it a shot. |
| Gina - Tuesday, 09/09/03 21:11:23 EDT |
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Gina, To work 14 kt gold,with a peened finish a jewelers hammer is nedded as well as a nice flat chunk of steel. Make sure that the steel is clean, no rust, or the rust ends up in the gold, and rusts the customers neck. Next anneal. This means heat carefully to a soft red, hold for a few seconds and cool SLOWLEY. Do not quench. When comfortable to the touch, ready to work more. You should be able to peen the entire surface, anneal, and shape.(assuming that the gold is annealed as recieved. The best source for goldsmithing info and tools is RIO GRANDE in N. Mexice. Look under THE BELL GROUP. The have the tools that you can't find locally.Another item they have is charcoal and other blocks for heating on that are very cheap. The white low cost block and a simple propane torch will heat the gold to annealing temp. Good luck, and be careful. gold is not cheap. By the way, in another life in the last century(1970's) I trained in Germany under a master goldsmith. |
| - jeff reinhardt - Tuesday, 09/09/03 21:42:42 EDT |
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Marc, I posted the e-mails to the GURU, for the power hammer page. Assuming that I did not screw up, He has the images and he has the ball now. GURU, I remember that someone mentioned the large balls for tooling are hard to come by. Try at a valve repair shop, the kind that serves the oil fields or refineries. The valve mfg that I used to work for used balls up to 4" diameter made in materials like 440C, monel, and 316 ss. The best way to determine is to try a magnet. the 440C is magnetic, and the hardest of the lot. Also good to fairly high temp. Hard to weld, easy to braze. if you get the entire ball too hot you may lose hardness,just oil quench. as I remember the roundness of these balls was in the millionths, and in qty they were a few dollars apiece. You might also try the net, look at precision balls. Adam, yes that is 2500 good old American tons. The energy is stored in a VERY large flywheel, and the crank for this machine is about 10 tons by it self. In 4 hits we take 6" bar and flange it out to about 24 to 30" with the flange about 2" thick. |
| - jeff reinhardt - Tuesday, 09/09/03 22:26:02 EDT |
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G'day......thanks all for your words re the soderfors anvil. Now it is daylight i have done nothing but admire it and brag to all my friends about my anvil. I can't wait to get my forge and don't worry i shall tell you all about it, plus the giant anvil (my parents think its about half a tonne in weight) that needs a truck to move it unfortunately i live about 1000+ k's from where this anvil is but at least i know its in the family and can't easily be stolen. i will be sure to come back and visit this site often cheers |
| Banjo - Wednesday, 09/10/03 00:07:16 EDT |
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Score one for our side in the fight on SPAM, and from an unlikely source: http://www.msnbc.com/news/964036.asp If anyone has any detail pics of the linkages on old Bradley hammers of any kind, please email them to me. Trying to improve my understanding of these interesting hammers. Threatening rain in Kaneohe, Hawaii. |
| T. Gold - Wednesday, 09/10/03 00:17:14 EDT |
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Hi, I am going to a midevil fair to sell some of my work and I was wondering what a typical midevil smith would wear? Thanks |
| Hayes - Wednesday, 09/10/03 01:09:29 EDT |
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What to wear? What to wear?: Is it date night? First, if you want accuracy it depends on exactly what period, time of year, what country and what kind of smith. I am not much on the reenactor scene but most people fake it when they get back this far. But it depends on the situation. Are you being judged on accuracy? Is there a review board? Most primitive work clothing is depicted as loose baggy, no or few buttons (usualy draw strings). Prints and bright colors would be practicaly unheard of. Shoes were much simplier than todays and were often more like mocasins. No matter what the century a smith working in summer is going to wear the lightest of shirts or none at all. In the winter he may be wearing a wool sweater, fur hat, jacket. . . A poor village smith who worked alone would wear different clothing than a prosperous city smith that had armor contracts and many workers in his shop. He would have been a merchant and would dress like one even if he still worked in the shop. This could include ruffled shirts and fancy embroidered suit of cloths and perhaps even a stylish hat. Those in the historical recreation buisness call this developing your "persona". Exactly WHO ARE YOU? Second, if you are demonstrating, safety gear often covers a lot. A good leather apron will fit any period even if it is not accurate. Work gloves have only become common in the last 150 years or so but many workers wear them all the time today as safety equipment. And many reenactors bow to modern sensibilities and wear safety glasses. Glass blowers in Colonial attire wearing dididium glasses. . . Avoid modern label or cover them. Those work glove may have "Mule brand" all over them. . . |
| - guru - Wednesday, 09/10/03 02:11:09 EDT |
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Gina, You can cold forge 14k gold very satisfactorily if you anneal it first. Heat it to about 1200ºF and hold that temp for a minute or two. Then quench in room temperature pickling solution (10% Sulfuric acid in water). If you air cool it, it will only achieve about half the possible annealing, plus you will have much more firescale to deqal with. The quench in pickle dissolves the firescale. As you work the gold, watch for signs of hardening and stop before the metal becomes s hard it cracks. You can anneal it as many times as yo need to finish the job. To make the annealing easier, try heating it on a charcoal block. If you don't have one, make one by wrapping a piece of fir 2x4 in aluminum foil and baking it in the oven at 400º for a couple hours. Be sure the aluminum foil is tightly sealed to keep all air out or you will light it on fire. Asbestos will also work, but is politically incorrect these days. A shallow pan filled with pumice rock will do pretty well, too. Use a propane or MAPP gas torch. Hnadle the gold with copper tongs when you put it in the pickle, as steel tongs will discolor it. Yes, gold costs more money than silver or copper, but it is just another non-ferrous metal. Don't be afraid of it. The foregoing is a brief overview of what I spent a lot of time teaching at the university level. I commend to you as a source book, Metal Techniques for Craftsmen by Oppi Untracht. Still the best all-around book on metalsmithing written. |
| vicopper - Wednesday, 09/10/03 02:32:31 EDT |
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Pexto rivet header: I cant figure out what the holes are for in this piece. One is next to the the depression for the rivot head on the "business end" it extends longitudinally about 1" and the other is on the side. they both intersect. any thoughts?? thanks |
| rugg - Wednesday, 09/10/03 02:37:53 EDT |
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Rivet Set: Rugg, the holes are for tightening the joint before heading the rivet. When there are several layers of metal (such as sheet metal) the set is used to compress the metal tightly around the rivet OR to drive the rivet through the stock (the through hole in the side). For larger rivets on bar stock smiths use a "monkey" tool, which is just a block with a snug clearance hole drilled in it. Sometimes these are heavy enough to be used as a backup tool when driving a rivet in a tight hole. Light ones are backed up with a hammer OR driven with a hammer. Good ones are tool steel, cheap ones are mild steel. |
| - guru - Wednesday, 09/10/03 03:03:24 EDT |
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The problem with modern blocks: Although a lot of people like the Salt Folk block (mostly because of its price), it and others like it are BAD PATTERNS. Some foundries have insisted that block pattens be drafted from the middle. This is entirely incorrect and is almost impossible to clean up by hand. ALL swage blocks were drafted from one surface until the new crop the last 10 years or so. The old castings were also smoother. They were cast using fine facing sand that produced a fine surface that needed little dressing. Using facing sand is a hand molding technique that is almost unheard of in today's iron foundries. However, the petro bond molds being used CAN be coated with a wash that produces a fine finish. It is just one step and a material cost that the makers are not insisting on or the foundries offering. Even though it adds to the cost it is MUCH cheaper than hand finishing even if you count your time at less than minimum wage and forget the high cost of abrasives. The problem is a combination of amature pattern makers and the wrong foundry processes. Today we have the capability of making much better blocks than the old ones due to the prevelence of ductile iron foundries. However, most foundries are geared to high production and do not modify their process for specialized castings. So it is very difficult to find one to work with. 
I have several very nice swage block patterns of my own that I have had cast. But to get good castings they cost as much per pound as a good anvil. I've tried to get them cast again in recent years but nobody will deal with loose patterns so they want them remade to fit their process. The foundries I've talked to also do not like dealing with outside patternmakers or discussing details like cores or finish. The molds to make molds (instead of loose patterns) are expensive to make. I can do it but have not been able to set aside a month to do it in six years. . . the guru business has absorbed a lot of projects I'd like to work on. . .
Click for detail. |
| - guru - Wednesday, 09/10/03 03:02:22 EDT |
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NOTE: My block above is much smoother than the photo looks. I needed a photo in a hurry a couple years ago and the block was quite rusty and dirty. It has since been cleaned, painted and oiled. . . |
| - guru - Wednesday, 09/10/03 03:12:24 EDT |
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Guru, I've heard this fine facing sand/wash mentioned several times. Any details? Would, say, fine beach sand mixed with water (assuming you're doing a greensand casting) work, or is there something more to it? Also, what is ductile iron!?!? Can't seem to figure this one out; is it the same thing as this new "semi-steel" that some companies are using for various items? What's added to regular CI to make it Ductile Iron? It's dark right now in Kaneohe, Hawaii. |
| T Gold - Wednesday, 09/10/03 03:55:42 EDT |
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I'm attempting to make a bracelet with some small gauge stainless aircraft cable. I couldn't get silver solder to flow or even stick to it (big surprise). Is there a way to make that work, or is there a different (better) way to join stainless? |
| - solost - Wednesday, 09/10/03 07:29:48 EDT |
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Ok, Paw Paw, am I EMBARISED! You would expect someone who gets paid to inspect aircraft tooling to know how to add! YEIKES! Swage blocks, I bought mine from Green Mengel at the Abana 2000 show. It is drafted from one side and had a decent finish for being a raw sand casting. I spent about 2 hours with a die grinder and assorted stones and mounted sandpaper to clean it up. It was a good investment and I am quite happy with it. I was interested in becoming a dealer for them on the west coast as there was quite a lot of interest in it (and still is!) when I bought it. However, it seems that we were never able to connect up to talk about it. I still wouldn’t mind being a dealer for them though. One of the members at our museum made a pattern and had some anvil/swage blocks made up. He explained the surface requirements and what his expectations were when he ordered them. The caster said they understood and that it wouldn’t be a problem. When he went to pick them up, there were large sand inclusions, snag grinder marks that looked like they were made with grinders using boulders for abrasive and just a general poor quality appearance about them. The caster couldn’t understand why he was upset and wouldn’t accept them! He was then told that his business wasn’t welcome there! It is a sad comment on the state of the industry. |
| - wayne parris - Wednesday, 09/10/03 08:40:29 EDT |
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Wayne, Don't sweat the small stuff. We all make mistakes. Jock caught me in one very similar a couple of years ago. |
| Paw Paw - Wednesday, 09/10/03 09:40:18 EDT |
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Looking at Mike Boone's folded pair of leaves in News v30 p4 may 16 '03. I am curious about forming the central ridge/vein - does he do this with just a hammer or does he use a fuller? |
| adam - Wednesday, 09/10/03 11:28:48 EDT |
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Adam, I think he folds it nearly in half, using the anvil step and a straight peen hammer, then clamps it into a vise hot to complete the fold. Once it is folded, he then opens the leaf up and flattens it out, leaving the central vein from the fold. |
| Paw Paw - Wednesday, 09/10/03 11:43:34 EDT |
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Facing Sand: TG, It is just finer casting (green) sand. The larger the casting the coarser the sand needs to be for venting and support. Swage blocks are relatively a VERY heavy casting (being about 4" thick). To use facing sand (which is about as fine a that used for jewelery) the molder would dump on some sand, then form it by hand to make a thin layer on the pattern (about 1/2" or less) then back fill with the regular weight sand. Before removing the pattern vents are made using wire about the size of coat-hanger wire or 1/16" welding rod. In a large operation a little facing sand does not contaminate the regular sand much but it DOES degrade the coarser sand. It also requires hand molding. It is how ALL old production swage blocks (or anything else that needed a fine cast surface) were cast. Mold Wash is made of a variety of compounds but graphite and a binder is common. It is usualy solvent based and drys quickly. When brushed on green sand molds the result is like the old Kohlswa anvils, looking like a broom finish. When brushed on hard petro-bond molds it makes a fine finish. However the brush texture can still be seen (just like brushed paint) but it is pretty darn smooth. For first class work it can be sprayed on the surface of the molds. Mold or core wash also contaminates the sand but less so than facing sand AND it is usualy something that can either be screened out as fines or is of little consequence. The problem in many foundries is that it IS an extra step that they may not normally do. Wayne's story is typical of dealing with many small foundries. The last time I had my blocks cast the first attempt floated the top of the mold (the foundry failed to weight it) AND there was insufficient riser and the sides shrunk in. I refused the castings. The foundry man KNEW they were bad but hoped I did not. They tried a SECOND time. These did not float the mold but they still had curved shrunken faces and a rough finish. I paid for two ($50 each) which I eventualy gave away (*I* couldn't take money for such junk). The first time I had my blocks cast they were done by a large foundry that specialized in heavy castings. They were perfectly cast but had the slightly rough surface from coarse sand. But they cost $1.75/pound in 1984 PLUS shipping from the West coast. |
| - guru - Wednesday, 09/10/03 11:49:02 EDT |
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Folded Leaf With Vien: See my iForge demo #10. No viening swage needed. The same method also works from blanks cut from plate. More leaves are also shown on my bio page. |
| - guru - Wednesday, 09/10/03 11:58:33 EDT |
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Hayes, first learn to spell "medieval"; nobody will give a hoot over wear/ware/where but folks have had a lot of hassel over "midevil"---including this one which happed to me! "Medieval" is that halfway between low evil and high evil?" or one I never figured out "Well we're christian!" Next date/location is very important; but "Cathedral Forge and Waterwheel" by Gies and Gies has several pictures of medieval smiths, (pg 65 & 127 in my copy for starters), There is some information on the stave church carvings of Siggurd just past the viking time period; if you can go late (into the renaissance) there is a ton of material in "De Re Metallica" not to mention the various pictures of smiths in allegorical compositions---look for Vulcan or Hepheastus (sp?) in the art museum catalogs and then look at the folks in the background of the pictures. For real fancy duds that engraving of the HRE visiting his armourer's shop has folks in puffed and slashed IIRC. Over the edge, Goya, I believe did a painting called "The Forgers" doing large work in Spain they were wearing bull hide aprons and braes and nothing else. Mosst of the pictures will show folks wearing what everyone else in that time wore; tunics, belted and leather aprons, simple turn shoes and various types of hats---particularly usefull when working with charcoal that has a larger fly around component. Of greater importance is *WHAT* the clothes are made from! *Pure* wool is *best* (after leather) and need not be coarse scratchy stuff---look and feel an Armani suit and then say wool has to be nasty! Most modern wools would *not* be accepted in medieval times as being too coarse for human use. Look for fine worsted wool with fine herring bone or broken diamond twills if you can find them for early medieval garb. Linen and Hemp are next best---100% of course, as soon as you start adding synthetics like polyester to the mix you are asking to have burning, melting plastic dripped on your skin and then ripped off by the ER folks. Cotton works ok but is late period for most areas and was not used as much for clothing. Note many Medieval Faire folk do not know much about medieval fabrics and so may tell you that it had to be coarsely spun and coarsely woven to be medieval---not true at all, hand spun can be more finely spun and woven than machine spun stuff; but most folks ideas of the medieval period come from hollywood and the victorians and not what is actually there for us to look at! (Guru, sorry for the rant) Thomas |
| - Thomas Powers - Wednesday, 09/10/03 12:27:52 EDT |
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Ductile Iron: This is made by innoculating cast iron with magnesium which causes the carbon to collect in graphite nodules. Thus you get a low carbon iron with graphite nodules. It is ductile and fairly weldable. Machines like a cross between cast iron and mild steel. Lots of dirty graphite in the chips and the cut metal looks slightly porous due to the graphite nodules. The magnesium can be added in the pouring ladle and sometimes it is added in the mold by constructing a place in the gating to fill with lumps of magnesium. YES much of it flares off. This is NOT something the backyard foundryman should attempt without a lot of advise. |
| - guru - Wednesday, 09/10/03 12:31:20 EDT |
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Just another note to add to what the Guru and Thomas said: I have a number of holes burned in the hem of my linen tunic, and a few smaller ones in the ends of my wool trousers. No matter how careful you are, sparks and coals get around, especially with charcoal. DO NOT wear your best velvet tunic. I’ll be sending the Guru some pictures that Mathew Amt took at last Hastings- A lovely day on the banks of the Potomac. Article on Viking ships in the latest issue of Wooden Boat magazine. Visit your National Parks: www.nps.gov Go viking: www.longshipco.org |
| Bruce Blackistone (Atli) - Wednesday, 09/10/03 15:43:55 EDT |
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Just to add a note to the Guru's warning above, I was at the Forging on the River event at the National Ornamental Metal Museum when someone decided to add magnesium one batch of the iron pour. The resulting fountain of flames and sparks scared the daylights out of several folks and was REALLY impressive to see once you got over the flash blindness. In the wrong circumstances it could be really, really dangerous. |
| tanix - Wednesday, 09/10/03 15:48:18 EDT |
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Guru, Not to rush, but when you get the chance, please email me my membership password. I can't remember it. Sorry about the trouble. Thanks. |
| - taylor - Wednesday, 09/10/03 16:17:22 EDT |
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I am just getting started in blacksmithing and I took some advice from this website on making a cheap anvil. I went to the local scrap company and bought a 142 lb. chunck of steel for $14.20. I would like to machine a hardie hole and a prichell hole in the face. Can you tell me how deep these need to be? Also, can you tell me the best location for each of these? Thanks, Joel |
| Joel - Wednesday, 09/10/03 17:22:21 EDT |
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Hi Jock, I was wondering if you are still accepting submissions to the user built air hammer page? I build Kynion style air hammers and I've made a modification to the air system that seems to work much better for me. I haven't seen this modification elsewhere. My main question is what do you need for the submission. I was thinking overall picture (jpeg), close up of controls, close up of main plumbing, schematic drawing, and some text. Is this too much or what do you suggest. Take Care David Robertson |
| David Robertson - Wednesday, 09/10/03 17:37:51 EDT |
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JYH: David, Yes. We just recieved a series on a spring helve (like the Little Rusty) and I will be posting that as soon as I edit the images. The more details you send the better. Send JPG images. Do not edit them. I'll adjust lighting, cut out backgrounds if necessary and crop. I can make large images small and post pop-ups with them but I cannot make small images large. |
| - guru - Wednesday, 09/10/03 18:03:07 EDT |
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Cheap Anvil: Joel, Good sized anvil. Keep your steel hot and your hammer off the surface and it will hold up OK. You may need to ocassionaly dress the face. A soft anvil will teach you to keep the corners of your hammers dressed and OFF the face of the anvil. The low cost anvil article has approximate locations. Hardie and pritchel holes need to go through so that punchings (biscuits) fall through. One way to do it in a solid block is to have them intersect larger holes drilled through from the side. However, this is some serious hole making if you do not have the machinery. A HD drill press will make the holes in a few minutes but otherwise it is a real chore. The most common hardie hole is 1" square. To make this drill a 1-1/8 to 1-1/4" cross hole centered about 2" from the face of the anvil. Then layout the square hole and center punch for four 3/16" holes near the corners. Drill the corners and then the center with a 1" drill. If you have access to a milling machine you can remove the rest with a 3/8" diameter end mill and then clean up with a file. Alternatively you drill the holes, then start with a die grinder or cold chisel and worry out the hole. Finish with files. This could take a couple days of cursing, blistering and calling me bad things. . . Then next best alternative for a square hardy hole is to weld a 3" length of 1-1/4" .090 wall square steel tubing to the side of the anvil then add a flange at the top made of bent 1/2" square bar or cut from plate. Weld all around and then grind flush. This will not take a heavy bating but it will take what the heal and hardie should take on a regular anvil. Another thought is to go with a ROUND hardie hole. Many farriers anvils come this way so the heavily chamfered oversized hole can be used for bending. AND another option is to make a "stake" or bolster plate and attach it to a heavy post or stump near your anvil. The plate can be made of (min.) 3/8" to 1" steel. Drill and make the square hole as above. Drill punching holes and in the corners drill and counter sink for flat head screws. The wood under the holes should be drilled out and if you are going to do hot punching cross drilled so the biscuit can roll out. It would not hurt to put a piece of steel in the bottom to prevent starting a fire. If you make a stake or hardy plate you may want the following square holes: 1-1/8", 1", 7/8". Those will cover most common hardies. If you want it to be a true stake plate then the holes will need to go up to 1-1/2" and the plate should be at least 1" thick. Bolster plates are usualy loose plates with a series of holes. Often the holes are the same size but have different openings, counter sinks for making flat head rivets, radiused holes for squareing shoulders, and raised edge holes for relieving shoulders. These are simple but handy tools and can be placed over the hardie hole for a good fit. They are also simple to make and easier to come by than a swage block. THAT is tonights iForge demo sans images. . . guess I should make drawings and post. |
| - guru - Wednesday, 09/10/03 19:43:14 EDT |
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Gina, The pickle that vicopper suggests is available from Rio Grande, and is know as SPAREX. The reason that I did NOT suggest that you use pickle is that it spatters acid about as you place it in the bath and you need to wash off the acid prior to working the gold further. The pickle works best in a pirex pan. READ all the instructions and follow. The spatters will tend to degrade any surfaces they fall on, so this is not a kitchen table operation. The pickle will give you a better finish to start polishing from. You can peen, aneal as needed and still get a good product. Just a bit more work. The white block to heat on that are cheap are made from Magnesia and do a great job. If you ask for the Bell Group findings catolog also ask for the tool catolog. Many tips and techniques. Wear a respirator when polishing, as the compounds go everywhere. The planishing hammer has an unuasual handle that lets the hammer sort of rock in your palm. Get a good hammer with a polished head, A standard ball pien is too big, and to rough for most jewlers work.Good luck. |
| - jeff reinhardt - Wednesday, 09/10/03 21:52:09 EDT |
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Pickle: Sparex is actually NOT 10% H2SO4. It is actually sodium meta-bisulphite, which is half-neutral sulfuric acid. It is considerably safer to use than the 10% sulfuric solution,and works very nearly as well. It is, however, considerably more expensive. Often times, you can get a small amount of sulfuric acid from your local automotive battery store. (Sulfuric acid is the electrolyte in lead/acid car batteries.) Large battery operations purchase their acid in 55 gallon drums and are sometimes willing to give you a cupful if you bring your own proper container and demonstrate that you know what you're doing with the stuff. As Jeff said, the spaters form any acid will damage whatever they fall on. Wear eye and face protection and an acid-proof apron. If if you get any on your skin, neutralize it immediately with baking soda and water and then wash/rinse thoroughly. If you get spatters on your jeans, you may not even notice them until you take them out of the wash later and find that they look like tattered rags. For years, most of my shorts were cut-off jeans that had the lower legs eaten up by pickle where the apron didn't protect them. All hammers and anvils/stakes used for jewelry work should be polished to a mirror finish. Not only because it saves polishing time later, but also because it reduces the amount of spurious steel that gets embedded in the jewelry metal. When not in use, those polished tools should be protected with a thin coating of Vaseline or light grease to prevent rust. |
| vicopper - Thursday, 09/11/03 13:02:41 EDT |
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Barney, If you look at the Anvilfire Yahoo picture group under my picture section(Caleb Ramsby), you will see a photo(I think I left it there) named big ol fire. This is what happens when one burns wood pellets. With a little excess air.grin The problem I found with the wood pellets(they work great for starting a coal fire) is that by the time they char down. The "glue" and pressed particles let go and there are a LOT of little sparks. Since they are so small they burn up instantly after they have chared, thus it is almost imposible to get any heat into the metal. If the charcoal prices are getting too high, check out. . . They have a booklet on the production of charcoal. It describes how to make a small building out of cinderblock and make charcoal in it. If I remember correctly, they describe a one or two cord design. Hope this helps, Caleb Ramsby |
| Caleb Ramsby - Thursday, 09/11/03 16:43:06 EDT |
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Dear sir i'm trying to find out infromation on old sputter steel's used for making marmlaied or cherry extract's used meny year's ago i would like any input you may have on these machine's or print's on how to build one and informatiom on formentiation prosess's to make solid's in to liquied sorry for the spelling but any help would be greatly aperated . |
| Kevin - Thursday, 09/11/03 20:16:08 EDT |
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Dear sir i'm trying to find out infromation on old sputter steel's used for making marmlaied or cherry extract's used meny year's ago i would like any input you may have on these machine's or print's on how to build one and informatiom on formentiation prosess's to make solid's in to liquied sorry for the spelling but any help would be greatly aperated . |
| Kevin - Thursday, 09/11/03 20:17:10 EDT |
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Hi guru group I don't know if this has something to do with you guys(blacksmiths) but you guys are experts in all sorts of metals..here goes. In a very small town of Spain (Zamora Province) there is a church bell with a crack and I will like to fix it. Right now it sounds like a tin can. I know that the proper way would be to cast it but this is too expensive plus the bell is a very old piece-18th century. Is there a way to solder these buggers or another method? I know that this way it will not sound the same as before. |
| Paco - Friday, 09/12/03 08:10:03 EDT |
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hi |
| - Paco - Friday, 09/12/03 08:13:14 EDT |
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h |
| - Paco - Friday, 09/12/03 08:21:46 EDT |
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hi |
| - paco - Friday, 09/12/03 08:24:10 EDT |
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ffffff |
| - paco - Friday, 09/12/03 08:26:37 EDT |
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Barney, there is a cheap & dirty way to make charcoal: Oak, wild cherry, elm etc grows wild on fence rows. I give it to anyone who will cut it. Burn it in a barrell then cover & let it smolder. Works great. you just need more of it than coal, but you can use a big truck brake drum for ur fire pot. Smells better than coal and is actually better for forge welding. |
| Ron Childers - Friday, 09/12/03 08:38:14 EDT |
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solost Any good hardware store should stock a special stainless steel solder it may come with it's own flux or may have a flux core.Fluxing is important to making the material clean enough to get a good bond there may be oils or other contaminants on the cable. |
| Chris Makin - Friday, 09/12/03 09:53:21 EDT |
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Paco: The traditional way to repair a crack in a cast bronze bell is to drill a hole at the end of the crack (to prevent it from increasing), and then repair the crack with bronze brazing rod. After the crack is filled, the bell must be "tuned" by careful hammering to restore its resonance. As of twenty years ago, there were about three people in the world who could do this reliably. Cracks were also sometimes repaired by inserting a series of rivets along the crack in an effort to allow the resonance to carry across the break. I don't know how successful this was. In the United States, we have a long-standing (since 1776) tradition of NOT fixing cracked bells. For a classic example, go to Philadelphia and check out the Liberty Bell. It is one of the symbols of our great country and is shown on one denomination of our currency, the crack prominently displayed. We actually revere that cracked bell. |
| vicopper - Friday, 09/12/03 10:13:40 EDT |
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Cracked Bell: Besides what Vicopper had to say above, bells usualy crack for a reason. It could due to there being something wrong in the alloy the bell was cast from OR some slight problem with the shape of the bell. Brazing will often create the same stresses that cracked the bell and result in a new crack at a later date. The bell Vicopper mentions (the famous Libery Bell) was remelted and the alloy adjusted, then recast at great expense. Twice I think. Each time it cracked. The last time it held up for a number of years but in the end succumbed to what must have been its fate. Alloying is very complicated and the most minor of contaminates can sometimes be disasterous. Once the metal is improperly mixed it is almost impossible to fix. In your case it is probably best to put your effort into raising money to replace the old bell and retire it to a museum or some honored place in the church. |
| - guru - Friday, 09/12/03 10:57:20 EDT |
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why cant i find any info on swords |
| - william morgan - Friday, 09/12/03 12:09:54 EDT |
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william morgan Odds are because you have neglected to look ;-P That aside, go to the upper right of this window and use the drop down menu to get to the "Armoury" page. This contains an interesting array of articles about misc. weaponary and some on making said weaponary. That said, if you want to make one, start with the "Getting Started" link (at the bottom of the page), become a blacksmith. When you have done that awhile you will have the ability to understand the books done by Dr. Hrisoulas and others and may, after sometime, become good enough to make your own. As someone else mentioned here before, "Swordsmithing is to Blacksmithing what Brain Surgery is to medicine". Good luck! |
| Escher - Friday, 09/12/03 12:58:43 EDT |
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Escher, so kind! I was going to answer "because you are not worthy"; but then I'm a bit waspish as I had a bit of minor surgery and still "uncomfortable". Mentioning the sword forum might be a good idea too Thomas |
| - Thomas Powers - Friday, 09/12/03 13:59:27 EDT |
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Liberty Bell: Actually the bell cracked and had to be recast shortly after delivery. This is the second time that it's cracked. Recasting makes sense given the value of the bronze (and the cheapness of labor) in those days. See: http://www.nps.gov/inde/liberty-bell.html You may wish to contact the park (start at www.nps.gov/inde/) for further details of the repairs. If I know the NPS we have someone there who has studied the question in depth. Good luck. Swords: Sword Forums has a good beginners bulletin board: http://www.swordforum.com/ Showers and warm on the banks of the Potomac. Visit your National Parks: www.nps.gov Go viking: www.longshipco.org |
| Bruce Blackistone (Atli) - Friday, 09/12/03 15:45:18 EDT |
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I looked at the brake drum forge plans and have been looking at the Centaur Vulcan forges. The fire pot seems to be about 9" round or 9"x9" square. Is that small for a blacksmith's forge. Are these meant for ferrier's or, as a beginner, am I over estimating what size the fire pot should be? |
| Carl - Friday, 09/12/03 16:39:32 EDT |
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Carl, you only need to heat the metal you can work before it gets cold. Size of the fire is usually tied to mass of the irem not size so you can actually make swords in a small forge *until* it's time for heat treat and even then there are ways. My advice is to start *cheap* and find out what you like/want in a forge and build it! Repeat as necessary, a forge is more like a consumable, the anvil, postvise, etc are the capital expenditures. Thomas |
| - Thomas Powers - Friday, 09/12/03 17:33:54 EDT |
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Coal Forges: Carl, We spent last Saturday using this forge put together by dragonboy and his friend Matthew.  Inside the wheel it had an old auto flywheel that reduced the depth by about 1/3rd. It worked quite well but needed an air control. So we stuck a board in the hole where the damper vent it. They had good coal and it got hot enough to burn the end off several pieces as I was demonstrating. . . Made one small clinker in half a day. Better air control is required to forge weld. The draw back to a small diameter forge is coal capacity. When burning coal you are constantly raking coal onto the mound in the center. When using a small forge you must constantly replentish coal from the bucket. The small diameter also limits the depth of the fire. A shallow fire is hard to get to a non-oxidizing state for welding. The fire pot goes into a forge table, or larger forge pan that holds a larger quantity of coal. The 9" diameter firepot is for small forges but it will do a LOT of work. The actual "capacity" of a fire pot is determined by the size of the air opening and supply pipe (tuyeer). A 2" pipe is average and large forges often use 3". The forge above has a 6" supply but it is respricted to about 2-1/2" at the firepot. With coal the limitation is usualy the size of the pan, the blower, and the skill of the operator. With enough blower and a half ton pile of coal you can heat a several hundred pound piece (like an anvil). Most of us do not want to put half a ton of coal in a forge. . . but a hundred pounds is NOT unusual in the average forge with more added while replentishing during the day. |
| - guru - Friday, 09/12/03 18:34:31 EDT |
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I was reading the online version of Modern Blacksmithing from 1904 and I ran across this note: "TO MAKE STEEL AND IRON AS WHITE AS SILVER Take 1 pound of ashes from white ash bark, dissolve in soft water. Heat your iron red, and cool in this solution, and the iron will turn white as silver. " Is there a way to make the same solution from household or commercial chemicals? I'm a little short on white ash bark this week and was hoping maybe something under the sink would do. :) Thanks, Mike |
| Mike - Friday, 09/12/03 18:44:07 EDT |
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MIke, what's the URL for that version, please? |
| Paw Paw - Friday, 09/12/03 19:45:09 EDT |
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White Steel: Mike the ash bark is having lye extracted from it as part of the process. A weak lye solution will do the same (use Red-Devil lye). I would not recommend heating the iron but you can boil the solution with the part in it. Now. . "white" does not mean "bright". Chemical etched steel is flat white to grey. These processes do not improve the finish, they degrade it. Soo start with a good finish. On clean steel you can get a similar effect with Ospho (a proprietary phosphoric acid solution). However, the steel needs to be absolutely clean to start. |
| - guru - Friday, 09/12/03 20:46:16 EDT |
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well, i made the giant bellow and have started working on a piece. im starting with a simple dagger blade. it makes a HUGE blast of air. its like a hurricane in a bag. |
| colin - Friday, 09/12/03 23:17:41 EDT |
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Guru, fit that furnace blower on Dragon Boy's forge with the wall mounted type of speed control for a ceiling fan and you will have very good control of the air. Tis what I have on my charcoal forge and on the lowest motor speed winding, with a 1/5 hp blower motor, I can blow the charcoal out of the pot. Dragon Boy's blower looks larger than mine. Makes it almost silent too. The speed controls usually also have a light dimmer. I hook the incandescent forge lighting up to that dimmer so I can control light around the forge. The "low hum" speed controls do make the motor a little quieter. |
| - Tony - Saturday, 09/13/03 09:03:21 EDT |
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Thanks Guru. |
| - taylor - Saturday, 09/13/03 09:59:30 EDT |
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Salt Fork Swage Have been looking at the swage blocks that the Kaynes have. Are they the SF swage blocks mentioned above? If not who carries the SF? Thanks Jack |
| jsilliman - Saturday, 09/13/03 13:08:39 EDT |
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Contact Jim Carothers at: colonel@fullnet.net Tell him I sent you, please. |
| Paw Paw - Saturday, 09/13/03 13:42:42 EDT |
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Sorry, Jack. I should have mentioned that Jim is the contact point for the Salt Fork swage block. |
| Paw Paw - Saturday, 09/13/03 13:44:17 EDT |
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Blower Controls: Variable speed fan controls work on small motors that are usualy what's known as "shaded pole" motors that do not have a capacitor start. Motors with capacitors OR split phase starting circuit controled by a centrifugal switch should not be put on speed controls. Dragonboy tried one on the fan above and it did not work. . . A sliding gate valve is easy to fabricate from thin plate or sheet metal and works well for controlling air flow. Controls for ceiling fans are generally heavier duty than light dimmers. |
| - guru - Saturday, 09/13/03 15:27:40 EDT |
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With cap-start motors, dimmers are not something I would generally recommend. However, it can be done... there are a few ways to do it. One is to wire a switch and dimmer in series and have the dimmer at max to start with; flick the switch on, watch the motor spin up, then adjust the speed down with the dimmer. Another method is to wire a switch and dimmer in parallel, and have the dimmer on a nominal speed setting before you flick the switch on. When the motor has spun up, turn the switch off; then the dimmer alone will carry the load. Note: I'm not responsible if you smoke your blower/switch/house with these tricks, but they *are* what I use on my blower. Good luck. Rainy and humid in Kaneohe, Hawaii. |
| T. Gold - Saturday, 09/13/03 16:29:10 EDT |
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Hi I've been doing blacksmithing now since I was nine and have just recently turned Twentyfour ( to give you a clue as to my experiance ) and I am realy into japanese swords and have made a few acurate representations of them although they've never been completly acurate due to the tempering prosses. If you could you give me a little info on hamon tempering, and ways of polishing it in properly I would forever be in your debt Kenneth Walden of Walden Forge |
| Kenneth Walden - Saturday, 09/13/03 16:44:17 EDT |
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Hammon: Kenneth, There are some very good books on this subject that you should study. The Art of the Japanese Bladesmith is one and the Jim Hrisoulas series is another. The hammon line is the result of a change in crystal structure where the edge of the blade is hardened. In this process the entire blade is coated with a poreceline type clay (very refractory) and then the clay is scraped off the edge of the blade so that it feathers or blends from the bare edge to the thicker clay. The edge is then heated and quenched. Tempering varies but may not be applied in this process as the whole blade is not hardened (check the references for correct details). Buffing correctly is one of those tricky thing you will have to practice. Many blade smiths apply this and similar processes in various ways to get a localized hardening. Some use traditional process and some use methods of their own. Bladeforums probably has several people who can answer this better than I can. But I recommend reading the books first so that you can ask more specific or questions. |
| - guru - Saturday, 09/13/03 17:14:32 EDT |
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Calendar of Events: We have an ALL NEW Calendar of Events page. This page is open to anyone that wants to post a blacksmithing or related event. Currently it only has a few events posted but eventualy we hope that every blacksmithing group has their events listed. Posting is easy. Select the month/yr enter a date, title of your event and a short description. There is a place for a link to a detail or organization web site and your email (encrypted as it is on the rest of our forums. Just be sure someone has not already posted your event. Events are listed in the order of posting. As months fill up we will sort them manually. This is something a lot of folks have asked about over the years. . . So we finaly took on the task. Another anvilfire first! |
| - guru - Saturday, 09/13/03 18:34:53 EDT |
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Oops, yes, that does look like a centrifugal switch start motor in the picture and I see how a ceiling fan control wouldn't work with a centrifugal switch. Too bad. The ceiling fan speed controlled blower motor setup works quite nice. Much quieter than a blower running full speed. Slide gates work too as do butterfly or plug style valves. A sliding gate over than fan inlet is most efficient. But the difference in electricity cost is probably minor Soo many options. grin |
| - Tony - Saturday, 09/13/03 19:29:30 EDT |
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We have a new member of the guru's "color" guard. Robert Nichols AKA "quenchcrack" now posts as an offical "guru" with a dark green signiture. quenchcrack is a Professional Engineer and has over 20 years experiance in the steel industry doing things many of us dream of. He has only recently taken up blacksmithing to get true "hands-on" steel working experiance. A "back to roots" metalurgist! He has graciously agreed to give us benifit of his education and some of his valuable time. Welcome! |
| - guru - Saturday, 09/13/03 22:09:51 EDT |
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I have been a blacksmith for over 40 yrs but never had any experience with a fly press. Now I want to purchase one and would like some advice on the following Who makes the highest quality unit Where could I find a used one if desired I want to purchase a large unit like a number 6. Which is the best choice C frame or H frame and why. Thanks Dave |
| Dave Plowman - Saturday, 09/13/03 22:16:55 EDT |
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can anyone help me with instructions on making a "coil handle" for a BBQ pit? i am not a blacksmith, i do metal fab as a hobby. thanks, doc |
| doc - Saturday, 09/13/03 23:48:08 EDT |
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Hey guys, I just got an anvil from a family friend, maybe someone could let me know what its worth, where it came from, etc. It is a 038 size and has the number "8" stamped on it. It also has a name engraved (?) on it that says "Joshua Wilkinson Dudley". Any help will be greatly appreciated. Thanks, TGN |
| The Great Nippulini - Sunday, 09/14/03 00:06:09 EDT |
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TGN, I think if you check you will find that the first word is Joseph, not Josua. I believe your anvil was manufactured by Joseph Wilkinson in Dudley, England. It is a forged, wrought iron anvil with a tool steel face plate. If you will scrub the anvil down with a Scotch Brite pad, wipe the dust (from the scrubbing) off with a dry rag and do a pencil rubbin of the face with a soft lead pencil. Then scan the rubbing and take pictures of the anvil. Send them to me email, and I'll try to give you a date of manufacture for it. Value? I can't guess at that without seeing good pictures of the anvil. |
| Paw Paw - Sunday, 09/14/03 02:19:06 EDT |
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Pencil rubbing should be of the sides, not the face. Especially the side where you see what you have quoted. The other side probably does not have any markings. |
| Paw Paw - Sunday, 09/14/03 02:20:18 EDT |
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Thanks, the anvil is not in my possession yet. From what I've been told, those are the specs. I have also been told it has a hardie hole on top and a pritchel hole on the side (?). I know the weight numeration on it, but the number "8" stamped into it is a mystery to me. Thanks for the advice, I'l send you pics as soon as I get it. TGN |
| The Great Nippulini - Sunday, 09/14/03 09:29:29 EDT |
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A hearty handshake and a boat-load of appreciation to Quenchcrack for commiting even more time and know-how to "The Cause." The "Color guard" and indeed all the folks that share their knowlege here are an absolutely invaluable resource. It amazes me that you can find countless lifetimes of experience freely shared, just for the love of it. I can't imagine, let's say, a baking web-site where seasoned professionals would share their best recipies and trade "secrets" with each other as well as with some guy that just wants to make the best peanutbutter cookies for a party. "Anvilfire: The bestest place in cyberspace." |
| Gronk - Sunday, 09/14/03 09:43:46 EDT |
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Ok. So I had a question and forgot to ask it DUH! I had the opportunity to use a different anvil, different than mine that is, It looked to be quite a bit smaller in weight but the horn and heel were shorter. That is they didn't extend very far from the waist. Umm more blocky I guess I mean. Well the metal seemed to move much faster on the blocky one even though the stand it was on was rather bouncy and not connected to the floor. Is it all in my head or do blockier anvils perform better than more elongated ones of similar weight? Thanks |
| Gronk - Sunday, 09/14/03 09:53:34 EDT |
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Gronk, The more mass you have under the hammer, the easier it is to work. So two anvils weigh about the same, but one is long and lean the other is short and stout. The one that is short and stout has more mass in it's waist, which is under the face. So you will be able to accomplish more work with equal labor, or the same amount of work with less effort on the short and stout anvil. |
| Paw Paw - Sunday, 09/14/03 10:18:03 EDT |
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Fly Presses: Dave, I have searched the net and various industrial literature looking for fly press information in recent months and the best I can find out is that all the manual machines now come from one source (an importer). These seem to be coming from Pakistan through India. The Indian exporter carries the little manual machines as well as huge thousand ton forging presses. I think they come from a variety of manufacturers in the area. In the recent past outfits like Bliss made fly presses and there was numerous European manufacturers but they were never popular in the US so used fly presses are far and few between in North America. I suspect that those being made by American manufacturers were mostly exported. With the loss of domestic manufacturing we now import these machines. . . Today huge flypress are used in industrial forging operations and are considerably more sophisticated than the old units of the past. However, many of these also seem to be made overseas. The India exporter claims to grade the machines according to fit and finish. I am told there are top grade machines, seconds and so on from the same source. Currently two outfits in the US sell manual fly presses to the blacksmithing community. Kayne and Son (an advertiser here) order the top quality presses and inspect each one before the ship them. They also stock the presses (or have been trying to as they have been moving very fast). The other dealer is not stocking the machines and is primarily taking special orders. I have seen and operated these machines at the Kaynes (see our iForge demos) and was impressed with the quality of the machined surfaces, fit and the smoothness of operation. I am hard to impress, I'm a machine designer and have built a variety of machinery and also do a lot of my own machine work. The choice of C frame or double column depends on press size. Size depends on application. However, when you get into the larger double column preses they are generaly designed for two man operation. The big presses require two handed and full body motion on the lever to get advantage of the full capacity of the machine. The little C frame presses (the #6 is actualy quite a large machine) are designed for single handed operation. This means you can hold the work with your left hand while operating the machine with your right (these machines are ALL right handed). On the larger machines you CAN concievably place the work in the machine, grab the handle, cycle the machine down and back, then remove the work piece. This may be acceptable for cold work but usually not for hot work. If you purchase an older machine you need to be aware that there are different types of flypresses. Forging presses have a fast multi lead screw. These are screws with more than one thread. All the forging presses I have looked at had four lead screws. Cold work presses designed for plate work and coining (popular in the flatware industry) have slower screws. These could be single start or double start. The difference is the rate of vertical travel and the distance that the work is done in. Forging presses need a fast rate of travel in order to get to the work and expend their energy in a relatively long distance then get off the work quickly. Coining presses are used on cold plate and the press expends it energy in a very short distance. Different machines for different purposes. However, many machines are used in cross over applications and it is not unusual to see forging presses doing punch press jobs, blanking and punching holes. |
| - guru - Sunday, 09/14/03 10:38:26 EDT |
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Coil Handles: Doc, You start with a mandrel (a round bar) and wrap the coil around it. The mandrel wants to make the largest diameter of the handle. Then to shape the coil to a tear drop or taper you compress the coils a little at a time working from near the center out. This can be done hot with tongs or pliers or cold in a vise. You squeeze a spot, rotate then squeeze another a little tighter and so on until you get the shape you want. It is not hard and can be done hot or cold. Smiths prefer doing it hot because it is faster and takes less effort. There is some trial and error required to find the right starting length. And like anything else it helps to practice. In high production these are made between tapered dies in a machine like a thread roller. The straight coil is placed between the dies and then they shift parallel to each other. Tapered faces in the dies smoothly tighten the ends of the coil as it rolls between them. Like rolling clay snakes between ones hands. . . |
| - guru - Sunday, 09/14/03 10:53:41 EDT |
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Anvil Solidity and Efficiency: Gronk, Paw-Paw pretty much covered the anvil efficiency question if not briefly. Yes, it is surprising to use a small anvil that is more solid than a larger one. If you look at old Colonial era anvils they had solid mass under most of the face and short horns. Modern farrier's anvils are the opposite end of the spectrum having very long horns and heals and a very narrow waspish waist. There is a huge difference in feel under the hammer. The trend throughout the history of manufacturing anvils has been to try to provide an increasingly larger working surface for a given mass. At some point a balance was achieved but there are still differences between manufacturers and style of anvil. Blacksmiths forging anvils have a relatively heavy waist compared to farriers anvils. Farriers anvils are designed for one specialized purpose, a specific range and shape of work and often for a degree of portability. They also include features not found on other anvils (clip horns, turning cams, bending holes). Among the old lines of anvils they did not discrimiate between farriers and shop anvils nearly as much as today. But the lighter anvils had narrow waists and were considered primarily to be shoers anvils because THAT is what most people did with them. As the weight increased, proportionately more and more mass was added under the face (in the anvils waist) as these were known to be general shop anvils. Often there is little difference in the overall length between a 200 pound anvil and a 300. The mass going into the body under the face. However, 200 pound and greater farriers anvils WERE made, like my Hay-Budden, which has a very narrow waist and large face for its weight. Much of this has to do with style and our perception of what an anvil SHOULD look like. The old blocky anvils did not have that sexy narrow waist and long (obviously phalic) horn that people expect an anvil to have. But the old anvils were more solid under the hammer and did not have that ear piercing ring that is largely the result of the shape of modern anvils. Anvil Evolution: The modern anvil is somewhat of a do-all tool like a Swiss Army knife. Early forging anvils were blocky and hornless. If you needed a horn shape you used a stake anvil. Horns were added largely for farriers but caught on with other craftsfolk. Punching was done over bolster plates (see the latest iForge demo #164) until the hardy hole and the pritchell hole were added. THESE both led to increasing the narrowness of the anvil's waist because they are difficult to punch through thick material. The long thin anvil heal made it easier to punch these holes. To balance the longer heal the horn was extended. Thus, much of the modern shape was now dictated by manufacturability. Another feature that was dictated largely by the manufacturing process was the step or chisel table. When tool steel faces were forge welded to the tops of anvils it was easiest to use a rectangular plate that just stopped and did not extend over and blend into the horn. This made it easy to leave a soft spot in the wrought iron to chisel over. Many modern all steel anvils have this feature but it is far from soft. So a feature that was an artifact from forging a bi-metal design is now included in solid cast steel anvils. . . The step IS useful in forging but that is not why it was originaly there. American made double horn anvils (moade for export) often had two steps while European anvils did not. Among modern anvils some are much more solid than others. The Italian styled Nimba is about as solid as you can get having no waist at all. These are followed by the Bulgarian Style sold by Euroanvils and then Peddinghaus with its relatively short conical horn and a thick waist. Texas Farrier supply makes a short anvil with little mass in the base (similar to the Bulgarian style) which is very solid for its weight. The "Austrian pattern" popularized in the Otto Schmirler book is tall and VERY solid in that it had no waist under the face. However, makers of new castings miss this point and have corrupted the design selling what some claim is the same pattern but it is far from it. The new castings have a waist where the originals did not. The original also had the hardie hole immediately adjecent to the the body (not out on the heal). This is much more solid and is more useful for special anvil tools than hardie holes out on the heal which is springy. It is difficult to make this long deep hole but it makes a superior tool. These are fine points, but to claim it is the same as the original is insulting to the designer. Good anvils are deceptively sophisticated in their design. This is a point missed by many including folks that use anvils every day and many that make them. |
| - guru - Sunday, 09/14/03 12:47:19 EDT |
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I have two anvils, 1) Peter Wright Patent England Solid Wrought J on poinit end two symbols 103 it weights 120 lbs. on bath room scales 2) Peter Wright Patent Solid Wrought 3 pointed end 7 0 13 it weights 100 lbs. on Bathroom Schales what years made and worth. Thanking you in advance, Kirby B. Green, Jr. 704 NE 12th. Ave. Gainesville, FL 32601-3715 Tel. 352-372-6122 "E" Mail Kirby@gru.net |
| Kirby Green - Sunday, 09/14/03 13:09:15 EDT |
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Guru, I tried to cut and paste info onto the "Calendar of Events" page. It didn't work so I typed in some info. Looking at the post, part of the paste worked and it took up more space than necessary. Is there a way to edit it? |
| - Coalforge - Sunday, 09/14/03 14:33:53 EDT |
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When I braze (with a torch, not in the forge, just in case there was any confusion), I scrub the finished joint good with a wire brush, and then go over the whole assembly again with a wire brush before painting. This does a pretty good job of taking off the flux residue, for the most part. But ever once in a while, like with some locks I finished recently, there are some inside corners that I don't get clean enough, and then after a few days the flux seems to sort of crystallize or something and makes this white residue. My question is: can I dunk the parts in something (water? alcohol? thinner? acetone?) that would get into all the crannies and take out the flux before I wire brush and paint? I'm using Weld-It Brazing Flux from Hobart Welding. I don't see anything on the label about this. Thanks, Steve |
| Steve A - Sunday, 09/14/03 14:36:11 EDT |
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Steve, Soak the parts in vinegar till all the flux is gone, then soak in soda water for a bit to neutralize the acetic acid. Finally, dry well, remove any rust that may have formed, prime and paint. |
| Paw Paw - Sunday, 09/14/03 14:41:16 EDT |
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Coalforge, I'll look at what you did. Cutting and pasting HTML will break up as HTML is filtered from our forums. Cutting and pasting from most Microsoft products (other than notepad) into anything else is always a disaster. . . Not too bad. . just looked like a double click. BUSY weekend in October! |
| - guru - Sunday, 09/14/03 15:12:42 EDT |
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Flux Removal: Steve, This is always a problem. Soaking will not always remove the baked on anhydrous borax but it is a start. You may want to soak in plain water overnight and then in vinegar or a dilute boric acid solution the next day. Depending on the metal you will need to check the acid soak often. Vinegar may seem benign but it can be quite agressive on steel. On brazed steel there is going to be more chemical activity than on plain steel due to the dissimilar metals. On brazed brass objects you can let them soak for days if need be. When you weld or braze with borax based fluxes the borax is converted to anhydrous borax. Over time the molecules want to revert back to their hydrated state (10 water per molecule of borax) and they capture water from the air. So the glassine anhydrous borax turns to fluffy white crystals. I have seen places on brazed equipment that weeped white borax crystals for decades. When this occures on painted objects it makes boils in the paint and then rust pockets. Arc welding flux has borax in it as well. That is why I recommend sand blasting for cleaning. However, arc welding boils most of the flux out of the joint so that most is on the surface. Brazing often traps it deep in the joint making is very hard to clean. |
| - guru - Sunday, 09/14/03 15:27:50 EDT |
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Anvil Value: Kirby, Peter Wright is a good brand but condition is everything in pricing anvils. You may think old anvils are antique but anvils do not achieve antiquedom until they are nearly 200 years old or more. These are about 90 to 120 years old. So the pricing is based on value as a tool. Beat up old anvils still bring 50 cents to a dollar a pound. Anvils with serious damage less. Anvils in good condition (signs of use but not abuse) sell for a round $2/pound and Peter Wrights in mint condition for as much as new or more ($4/pound). SO, depending on condition and who is buying (another variable) anywhere from $50 to $400. |
| - guru - Sunday, 09/14/03 16:14:13 EDT |
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Guru; are your anvils sick? You keep referring to their "heals". I had thought the term was "heel" like the end of a foot or plane and the odd "heal" was merely a typo; but after seeing so many used in 1 post I am beginning to wonder? Local jargon? Thomas |
| - Thomas Powers - Sunday, 09/14/03 18:28:43 EDT |
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hey guru, I have allways wanted a katana/nadacia lol so umm i have a 4 1/2 foot bar of rebar thats semi-rusted i found on one of the family woods (own tonza land) while walkign and i was wondering if i could use charcoal in an old tractor rim setting by my shed to heat it up and pound it out into a blade shape by bending and hammering untill it was about 4 inches wide 2 in depth in back and about 1 - 2 cm wide in the front and then quench, cover it with old charcoal dust green clay and watter mixed up in a 5 gal. bucket and cover it about and inch & 1/2 in the back and 3/4 inch. in the front and let it cool over night, anyways would this work for starting a jap. blade? and if it would what could i use for a handle and is rebar stainless steel or is it carbon-steel? thnxs fer ur help, James. |
| James Johnson - Sunday, 09/14/03 18:44:54 EDT |
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Borax flux removal: If you have the facilities and the time, boiling it i nplain water for a couple hoursw will remove all the borax. The boiling temp increases the rate of hydration dramatically, and the borax becomes dissolved in the water. Like cooking dried beans, change the water a couple of times for best results (least outgassing later). |
| vicopper - Sunday, 09/14/03 19:10:43 EDT |
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Thomas, My bad. . . thanks for the spelling lesson. . . :) |
| - guru - Sunday, 09/14/03 20:11:18 EDT |
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Modern Blacksmithing from 1904 http://www.usgennet.org/usa/topic/preservation/smithy/cover.htm Gugu and others, Thanks for the lye tip... silly me not to have recognized it as an acid etching process. I've been using muriatic acid for months ot etch designs on my work, but went brain dead with the white ash bark bit. Sadly, today was the last hammering I get to do for a while... its off to my wedding next weekend, honeymoon [yea!] after that, and a few weeks of catchup before I can even set my new anvil up [HF Russian cast steel, my first]. While I wouldn't miss my wedding/hm for the world... I'm a little disappointed about Quad State. Mike |
| Mike - Sunday, 09/14/03 20:14:47 EDT |
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Mike; Congrats on the wedding. There will be more Quad States. Getting off to a good start in your marriage and maintaining it will go a long way in the pursuit of your hobbies down the road. Best wishes, 3dogs |
| 3dogs - Sunday, 09/14/03 20:26:02 EDT |
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Rebar Sword: James, See our FAQ's page on Rebar, Heat Treating, Quenchants and Coal. See the plans page for brake drum forges (as well as the photo posted above a few days ago). Rebar is not stainless and neither are traditional Japanese blades or any other quality blade. Handle material can be hard wood (rosewood, walnut, ebony), wire wrapped wood or wood/leather, bone, Corian (synthetic ivory replacement). . . Furniture (the guard and pommel) is traditionaly pattern welded steel OR mokume gane' (pattern welded non-ferrous - copper/brass/silver). I recommend you read The Art of the Jappanese Bladsmith and all the books by Jim Hrisoulas. See our getting started page for other recommended reading as well as our book review page. Yeah, anyone with a forge and a hammer can heat and beat any old piece of iron into an edged weapon. . . . But it is up to you to make it a work of art. |
| - guru - Sunday, 09/14/03 20:34:47 EDT |
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Hey guru, I also fergot how do i make a habaki, and what about a sheath (cannot think of correct naem for a katana sheath? is it iai?) anyways does anyone know where i could find a whetstone locally (ex. Wal*Mart, Lowe's, Local Hunting Goods Store, ext...) anyways i also have some old files use to scrape rust off screw driver heads and sharpen poking items they are semi-rusted also could they be carbon-steel as the same for the rebar (metal barb-wire fence post)? anyways i have basicly everything i need for a forge and hammering the steel out just asking simple q.'s lol. thnxs!!! |
| James Johnson - Sunday, 09/14/03 20:37:23 EDT |
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Concerning Swords> I'm not trying to insult anyone, or anything like that. However, I feel the need to ask what is with the "I wanna make a sword..." by so many people? What is the appeal? Are they planning to fight with it or something? Open food cans with it? :-) |
| - taylor - Sunday, 09/14/03 21:28:53 EDT |
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Taylor, Watching too many movies, mostly. Conan the Barbarian and Bruce Lee movies. |
