| WELCOME to the anvilfire Guru's Den - V. 3.0 |
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THIS is a forum for questions and answers about blacksmithing and general metalworking. Ask the Guru any reasonable question and he or one of his helpers will answer your question, find someone that can, OR research the question for you. This is an archive of posts from October 18 - 24, 2003 on the Guru's Den |
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Walker, you are welcome! Chris, if you are going to go through the work of forging a sword, I suggest new steel. I get new spring steel from a local spring maker/repair place for free. Course, I do drop off a blade blank when I stop by most times too. Most metal workers will be happy to help if you explain what you want to do. I have one crude sword that was forged from leaf spring. Balance sucks and it twangs the hand sometimes, but without post forging heat treat, I can wail on wood chunks as hard as I can without edge damage so far. I wouldn't go into battle with it unless forced, and it won't cut a rice mat, but it is fun. The edge is more like an axe than a fine blade though. grin. I bought some new crow bars the other week to try making into a sword. No idea what the steel is, so I will just try to match hardness after forging. I couldn't bend them when they were crow bars, but after straightening, they would just bend. So there was some heat treat involved. |
| - Tony - Saturday, 10/18/03 00:12:09 EDT |
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TONY; Speaking of crowbars and other springy thingies, one of the best prybars I ever had, I made from a Chrysler torsion bar. There were a lot of them to be had in the '60's & '70's, and one could find a 3 foot piece pretty readily. Sure, they'd bow when I'd put a 5 foot piece of pipe on them to increase the leverage, but they'd always spring back. I'm still using it 36 years later. Best regards, 3dogs. |
| 3dogs - Saturday, 10/18/03 01:36:20 EDT |
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Tony; There's an old blacksmith in Monroe, Michigan, who still makes automotive leaf springs to order for car restorers, etc. He has an oil fired hearth furnace that looks more like a pizza oven than anything else. After rolling the eyes, punching the center bolt hole, and bending the proper arch in the leaves, he puts them in the hearth individually and brings them up to red, then drags them out of the fire and into an oil-filled quench tank. After they've cooled down some, he picks them out of the oil and puts them back on the ledge at the hearth opening until the oil flashes off, and drops them back into the oil That seems to be long enough to temper them to his satisfaction. He's been doing it that way since Hector was a pup, and "don't see no reason to do it otherwise." Speaks well for the SWAG method, doesn't it ? |
| 3dogs - Saturday, 10/18/03 02:16:23 EDT |
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Howdy, Anyone have input on the AUTO-DARKENING WELDING HELMET at Harbor Freight? Thanks |
| lefty - Saturday, 10/18/03 02:30:37 EDT |
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caleb, what do you have in mind for the truck springs?? i have made bending forks with them. i broke all but one, more because i thought they were unbreakable and used them to bend cold stuff...have to take another look at my caulking vise; i think it says "green river", not greenfield.. charcoal from BBQ store: most of the smoke that i use to smoke meat comes from the damp wood chunks that i place on the bed of charcoal. the charcoal does smoke, but not as intense as the damp wood chunks. not my idea. i am sure it has been done this way for a long time.....will test out the charcoal for forging soon..... |
| rugg - Saturday, 10/18/03 02:34:57 EDT |
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LEFTY; They have 4 or 5 different ones, but the one I got on sale for $59 has worked pretty well for me. Best regards, 3dogs |
| 3dogs - Saturday, 10/18/03 02:41:20 EDT |
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Lefty, I have the "Chameleon" from Harbor Freight and it is fine for smaller jobs. If I use it for a bigger job, 1/8" rods, several minutes (and rods) of welding, higher amperages, my eyes get more tired than with my old non-auto darkening helmet. Several other folks have told me the same thing. Try it on smaller jobs before welding a big job that's going to take a hour or more. Also, keep the solar batteries charged. Good buy, and has lots of uses, just ease into the use until you know how its going to work for you. Welding in "the shade" with one instead of with the sun at your back also seems to make them work better (less eyestrain). Could be operator error of some kind! |
| Ellen - Saturday, 10/18/03 04:56:58 EDT |
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3Dogs, yeah, the swag method works sometimes. Actually a lot of the time. Seems to work more often as I get older for some reason. We don't have to talk about the times it doesn't work, do we?? Grin! I've not done anything with Chrysler torsion bar (because I don't have any junk Chryslers laying around), but VW and Mercedes torsion bar have worked well for quite a few things. The Mercedes torsion bar is still the red hardest stuff I've done as I remember it today. Must have a bunch of chrome since they don't seem to rust. Even in WI road salt. No way I'd want to make a sword out of one though without a power hammer. WAY to much like work. grin. |
| - Tony - Saturday, 10/18/03 08:19:27 EDT |
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Please tell me one more time how much a cubic inch of steel weighs. Larry |
| - l.sundstrom - Saturday, 10/18/03 09:45:49 EDT |
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Lefty, I have one of the $59 sale auto dark helmets. Have used it for about a year.With limitations I love it. First, the shade control knob is very easy to adjust without meaning to.A small piece of duct tape solved that.The sensor tends to darken the lens from ambient light when not desired, but you learn to just move your head a bit. Last, for people who have been welding for a while, it took me a while to not blink as I struck the arc, and once past that, I'm now so used to looking at the point of arc and not nodding prior to striking, that I occasionally start to strike, and remember that I don't have a hood on. It is amazing how fast humans adapt. This hood has very cheap headgear, but is very good value for $59. Chris, I echo the thought that old junk yard steel may have cracks etc. Almost every thing of metal that must flex has a fatique life. Flex it enough and a failure will occur. Add stress risors from rust pitting and nicks etc, and the number of flex cycles till failure drops. I have found that spring shops tend to view the people that want springs to make swords etc as an interesting group to dole out scraps to. Especially if you take a small offering of work with you, and take back pictures etc. Good luck |
| ptree - Saturday, 10/18/03 09:56:09 EDT |
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I typically use the number of .283#/cubic inch |
| ptree - Saturday, 10/18/03 09:57:19 EDT |
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Tony, ptree, Chris, et al; I just kinda figured that, since the torsion bars I used had already busted, they had found their weak spot through extensive SE Michigan scientific pothole testing, and MY skinny (at the time) butt and a piece of pipe were not going to have much further effect. Calibration of the prybar was done using the ever popular Boot Method, i.e., when both of my boots left the ground, the testee and the testor were maxed out. Score another one for shadetree metallurgy. Science marches on! }:<) |
| 3dogs - Saturday, 10/18/03 10:36:00 EDT |
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Fisher Anvils; The forms used by Fisher to cast anvils had a bulge on the face plate surface. When the casting was poured the iron would flow on to the top of the face plate first,filling the bulge, effectively preheating it. The cavity being filled the iron would fill the body cavity. This ensured the steel plate would marry itself to the body. After removal from the form the cast iron on top of the plate would be knocked off. I am assuming tha some type of coating was put onto the top of the plate so the preheat iron would not stick. Josh Kaveat who runs the Fisher-Norris Museum has all the info on this. Are you out there Josh? |
| - Ron J. - Saturday, 10/18/03 11:15:39 EDT |
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WEIGHT OF STEEL teh cubic inch measurement is best for calculating weight of objects because objects are seldom a perfect cubic foot - but, FWIW last itme I looked in the book a cubic fot of steel weighd 480 pounds |
| Jerry Crawford - Saturday, 10/18/03 11:42:11 EDT |
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RE: my knife anvil project? Assuming I can get back into the shop & locate the big Oxy/Acet tanks .. bringing the face up to what color should do the hardening? The only quench tank they have is a small tire leak tester so quenching is only a maybe thing....and I'm trying to handle a pretty huge mass of steel. Can I just air cool the steel after I bring it to heat? |
| Jerry Crawford - Saturday, 10/18/03 11:58:03 EDT |
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Density of Steel: Note that virtually every alloy of steel has a slightly different density and if you want perfect you will need to know the alloy. In my Mass2 program I listed 15 steel densities and 10 irons. In our on-line version, Mass3j, there are 8 iron and iron alloys. For MOST plain carbon steel the value given by MACHINERY'S HANDBOOK of .2835 lbs/cuin is the best and is what I use for "common steel" in Mass2/3. I have tested it on objects weighing tons with calibrated scales and my calculations were within the +/- 5 pound accuracy of our 20,000 pound crane scale. Generaly the digital scale was more accurate than rated and values were dead on or within +/- 2 pounds of what I calculated. This was more acurate than the 4 significant digits of the value above. So it must be pretty darn good. Most densities or specific gravities are only known or accurate to within 2 significant digits. One time I was off 80 pounds on a 17,000 pound casting (I calculate the draft and fillets). They guys in the shop were giving me a hard time because weight calcs were MY THING. It turned out that I had used the density of grey cast iron and we were given a ductile iron casting. When recalculated using the correct material density I was within 5 pounds on an 8 foot diameter cast part. All volume calculations were carefully done in inches. Each part broken down into simple geometric sections. EVERY feature was considered, holes, ribs, fillets, chamfers and draft. In large parts the drilled holes can amount to a significant amount. A 3/8" chamfer on a eight foot part takes off 6 pounds! One reason for the careful calculations is that all this machinery was part of an unbalanced rotating assembly. Not only did we need weights but exact center of gravities. When dealing with torque in leverage calculations (we were upending a 50,000 pound assembly in 50,000 pounds of shielding) being off an inch on the center of gravity could mean hundreds of thousands of pounds of torque. It seems like the machine would be easy to balance with two 50K loads. But it had to operate empty as well as full. So the best possible condition was to be out of balance by 1/3 in both the loaded and unloaded condition. This resulted in a mear million inch pounds of torque. . . Doing all these calculations is why I wrote Mass2. Using Mass3j The densities in Mass3j are not given in lbs/cuin due to space limitations so I only give Sp/Gr. But you can enter 1 cubic inch as volume and get the density in pounds to 3 or 4 decimal places in the pounds column. Entering 1 cm3 results in density in g/cm3 which is almost identical to Specific Gravity (Sp/Gr). Although Mass3j does not currently have the range of unusual shapes that Mass2 had it is sufficient for most weight estimation. AND it is available here, on-line, free. |
| - guru - Saturday, 10/18/03 13:49:36 EDT |
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OBTW - 1 Cubic Foot of steel weighs 489.89 pounds and is usualy given a 490 Lbs/CuFt. Not 480. |
| - guru - Saturday, 10/18/03 13:52:51 EDT |
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Larry, As I recall, you submitted a little lymric about a mean old junk yard dog that you came up with to help you remember how much a cubic inch of steel weighed. Obviously, it didn't help your feeble mind, so here is another trick you can try. can you remember 1,2,3,4? Here's is how it works. A 12 inch section of 1" x 1" weighs 3.4 lbs. So, 1 x 1 x 12 = 3.4. Do you see the 1,2,3,4? If that sequence confuses you, try 2, 4, 6, 8. That is, a 1" x 1" x 24" = 6.8 lbs. Now, try to find the 2,4,6,8 in that sequence. I think you are having trouble with this because you think a 1 inch cube should be heavier than 0.2835 lbs. maybe you could cut out a 1 cubic inch block and wear it around your stiff neck. You would then know how light it really is. Besides, why does it really matter. You probably get your scrap for next to nothing. larry |
| - l.sundstrom - Saturday, 10/18/03 14:00:23 EDT |
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Flame Hardening: Jerry, The trick to flame hardening is to quickly heat a small section of the steel (a band) so that it cools quickly enough to harden as you move to the next section in a smooth motion. It is a progressive process and is often self tempering (IE requires testing or R&D). In many cases it does not require a quench, the mass of the steel doing the job. Normal hardening heat color in "normal" light is a low red. However, ambient lighting is rarely "normal" or the same in any two places. So the magnet test is recomended. The upper transformation point (A2) is just above the non-magnetic point for low to medium carbon steels and below the non-magnetic point between 65 and 85 point carbon. It then spikes to a 150 to 200°F for high carbon steels. At Quad State Ric Furrer of Sturgeon Bay, WI did a VERY interesting knifemaking metalurgy demo that I would have love to have spent the entire time at. One demo he did was to heat a file to forging heat and then quench it. He then broke it and showed the VERY coarse crystal structure. Then he took the same piece and reheated it just to the hardening temperature and quenched it. The new broken section then showed the very fine grain associated with good tool steel. It was a pretty dramatic demonstration. The point was to show how to condition steel by controlled heating. This is especialy critical on long blades where many narrow heats have been used and thin sections of the steel may have been "quenched" between hammer and anvil resulting in a coarse grain. The conditioning by heat treatment was far more dramatic than changes by so called "packing" by forging. This is the reason you harden on a "rising" heat, NOT by overheating and then waiting to quench as the steel cools (a falling heat). |
| - guru - Saturday, 10/18/03 14:17:12 EDT |
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More weight calcs. . . When my daughter was doing a school project involving a home built balance scale we did reverse calculations on 6061 aluminium and mild steel to make weights for the scale. We made 2.5g, 5g, and 10g weights. By measuring and cutting to the closest thousandth of an inch the steel weights were as accurate as a druggist's scale could measure them in milligrams. Published density values work well for large and small objects. Just be sure to cross reference densities or use a trusted and tested reference like MACHINERY'S. No reference is perfect but MACHINERY'S has been tested and retested for some 90+ years. |
| - guru - Saturday, 10/18/03 14:46:30 EDT |
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Larry, you are being a little hard on your self there. . I had to check the DNS loging to be sure it was YOU talking to yourself. . . If you don't use these things every day then it is easy to forget. A lot of folks know weights by the running foot of different common bar sizes. Those are units I never used so I could only guess OR think hard about. Generaly I whip out a pocket calculator. For estimating odd shapes one can get pretty good a quesing the average dimensions relative to a cube or cylinder. There is a neat chart in MACHINERY'S showing the volumetric relationships between a cylinder, cone, sphere and parabaloid. A cone is 1/3 volume of an equivalent dimensioned cylinder and a sphere is 2/3. The parabaloid is 1/2. A pyramid is also 1/3 the volume of an equivalent dimensioned prisim. The CG of both a cone and a pyrimid is 1/4 the height. . . If you can remember these simple proportions then volumetric calculations and estimates are pretty easy. I used to know these and more well enough to swear to them but today I need to look them up to be sure. |
| - guru - Saturday, 10/18/03 15:09:10 EDT |
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Jock, one more question: does 22 / 7 equal psi or is it just approximation? Larry |
| - l.sundstrom - Saturday, 10/18/03 16:35:47 EDT |
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I am just getting started in the blacksmithing trade and will be finishing a 14 week artist blacksmithing program at Fleming college in Haliburton, Ontario, Canada. I am interested in working in Europe as a blacksmith to further my learning in the trade. Can you reccomend any connections or places to start where I can find out more information on obtaining an apprenticeship or even a sponsor. Thank you for your help, Steve |
| Steve Bazay - Saturday, 10/18/03 17:19:01 EDT |
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I Sundstrom, 22/7 or 3 1/7 was pi when I went to school. When the fraction is divided and becomes decimals (3.14159)...that's when the numbers go on and on. Pi times the diameter of a circle equals circumference of said circle. |
| Frank Turley - Saturday, 10/18/03 17:47:23 EDT |
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Thanks Frank, I divided 22/7 and noticed that the answer was 3.1428571428571..... with the 1428571 repeating evidently, forever. your 3.14159... is a different answer and this is why I was wondering if pi was really 22/7 or if it was just an approximate ratio. Anyway, I realize that it doesn't make much difference to the cutting torch but circles are amazing and if pi was really the ratio of a coulpe of whole numbers that would be pretty neat. Webster's agree's with the 3.14159... Can any of you mathematicians out there weigh in on the 22/7 concept. Thanks, Larry and thanks Jock for wealth of knowlege that flows through these pages. |
| - l.sundstrom - Saturday, 10/18/03 18:15:37 EDT |
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Larry, 22/7 is an approximation. 3.1416 is as far as I've ever had to go with it. |
| - Tony - Saturday, 10/18/03 18:49:19 EDT |
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22/7 is a good approximation to PI, certainly for blacksmith work. However to be pedantic, and I cant help myself since I am a mathematician by training, PI is an "irrational" number. This does not mean it is kept locked in padded room under heavy medication - it means it cannot be accurately represented as a ratio of two numbers such as 22/7 you may get close but never exact. A consequence of this it that it cannot be exactly represented as a decimal either (unless you allow an infinite number of digits) since decimals are really a special form of rational numbers. There are more sophisticated methods of generating approximations to PI that are based on infinite series - often combinations of series that generate arctangents ... I'll stop here None of this has much consequence for practical work where PI=22/7 or sometimes just even PI=3 is fine |
| adam - Saturday, 10/18/03 19:04:08 EDT |
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Pi worked fairly well as 22/7 for a long time. Archimedes approximated pi as greater than 221/71 and less than 22/7 a couple of thousand years ago and that wasn't improved on much until the time of Ptolemy, who gave us 3.1416 sometime around 200 A.D. By the time of the Renaissance, pi had been worked out to more than 15 decimal places. Using 22/7 used to be the way to approximate pi until the advent of cheap calculators. Since calculators are perfectly happy with decimals, 3.1416 is worth remembering since it is more accurate and will generate answers that are probably handier for engineering/mechanical things. None of my drill bits or fasteners are sized in 7th's of an inch. (grin) |
| vicopper - Saturday, 10/18/03 20:28:18 EDT |
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Hello. I'm wondering if there is any way I can build a forge I could use indoors. I know that charcoal cannot be used indoors (because of CO?). Is there anything I can build that I could use indoors, without the hassle of professionally installed chimneys and the danger of suffocating? Thanks Tom |
| Tom - Saturday, 10/18/03 20:39:23 EDT |
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Tom, indoors as in your house or indoors as in a shop? ANY forge you build will give off nasties... such as CO etc. SO a detector for those nasties is a good thing. HAving a good flue hood type arrangement is a MUST. |
| Ralph - Saturday, 10/18/03 21:12:36 EDT |
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TOM, With the exception of an electric forge, I think any fuel will generate carbon monoxide, and in relation to the heat generated. Any area inside that is too tight to burn fuel may also be inapproate for forge work. You need to consider that forging throws sparks, hot iron gets dropped etc. Most forges are set up in a seperate building or if none is available, often out in the open. I started forging under the shade of a persimmon tree, and drug all my stuff in and out each time. Beats burning down the barn-garage-house etc. |
| ptree - Saturday, 10/18/03 21:15:16 EDT |
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Tom, an induction forge would be a possibility. No smoke, no exhaust at all (except for the potential of metal to oxidize with ambient air). However, they don't make home-unit size ones, so you'll have to make one... no easy task (grin). Also they guzzle electricity; 1000 watts is the slated consumption for the small one that me and my electronics wizard friend are building. However, I would second Ptree's note about dropped iron and sparks, and note also that scale will get everywhere no matter what... Why is it that you'd like to forge indoors, Tom? My curiosity has been piqued. Fun at the Glass Club meet last night... pictures coming soon to a Yahoo! Gallery near you. (grin) Cloudy and still in Kaneohe, Hawaii. |
| T Gold - Saturday, 10/18/03 21:55:54 EDT |
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I live in Vancouver British Columbia, Canada I have come across a very old, Manual Drill press, with a screw tightening chuck, drill bits are hard steel and flat on one side so that are held in the chuck Made by Champion Blower & Forge of Lancaster P.A. Does Champion Blower & Forge Still Exist, How old is this Manual Drill Press, It appears to have a flywheel, overhead wheel for raining and lowering the chuck, I would love to know more, Would you please assist Douglas Potter Many thanks, |
| Doug Potter - Saturday, 10/18/03 21:59:22 EDT |
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Ive seen designs for a miniature (benchtop) crucible using an electric arc. Always wondered whether this idea could be used to run a small forge? |
| adam - Saturday, 10/18/03 23:14:38 EDT |
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Tom, a "Turley-grad" years ago named Jack Slack (good last name), built an electric forge in a Seattle indoor mall. He was selling jewelry and small forged pieces in his retail shop and had a partition wall in back with a storage room. He asked and got permission to install an electric forge and small set of tools in the back room. Worked for him. Douglas, These drill presses are called "post drills". They are usually mounted on a slab of wood. Sometimes you can see a faint line scribed vertically on the plank, so that the parts could be properly aligned for mounting. Then, the ensemble was mounted on a wall or post. The twist drills are old style blacksmith drills. The few I have in my shop all have ˝" shanks with the flattened side. The post drills I've seen have a pawl and ratchet wheel arrangement at the top which when engaged, acts as a self-feeder. I understand that Champion became the Channellock Co. somewhere along the line; no more post drills being made. Before it was Champion, I believe it was Lancaster Forge Co. in Pennsylvania. Post drills were made in the early 1900's. Someone might know more about the history than I do. |
| Frank Turley - Saturday, 10/18/03 23:20:25 EDT |
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PI p: The fraction 22/7 is children's stuff and pretty worthless. 3.142 is a much better value to remember. From early in the first millinium, in various cultures, PI was know as or 62832/20000 = 3.1416 or 3927/1250 = 3.1416 The different forms depended on your mathematical system. Today you should be able to remember the decimal value 3.1416 (DRILL it into your memory). Modern mathematicians (IE in the 1500's) such as Viéte discovered that PI was a mathematical expression of PI that could be calculated infinitely. Viéte was famous for early encryption systems and the first to create such a formula. If you are interested in the history of mathematics, PI and the digit hunters see A History of p (PI) by Petr Beckmann, St. Martins Press. In the world of engineering mathematics there are a handful of numbers you should easily recognize or remember. PI, the density of steel, the square root of two and half or the reciprocal of the square root of two (.7071. . . they are the same, a unique occurance). The reciprocal of the square root of two is also the sine and cosine of 45°. Handy things to know when playing with numbers. |
| - guru - Saturday, 10/18/03 23:36:20 EDT |
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Post Drills: An 1899 catalog I have lists patent dates in the early 1870's for these machines. They were sold until the 1950's and made by a variety of manufacturers. The most well known were Buffalo Forge, Champion Blower and Forge and Canedy Otto. We sell Buffalo Forge, Champion Blower and Forge catalogs on CD and will have Canedy Otto and others soon. There were dozens of sizes and designs of these machines resulting in hundreds of variations. They are VERY good hole drilling machines. The old 1/2" shank bits are no longer avaialable and since they are not high speed steel they are better collector items than tools to be used. I fit all my old hand crank drills with Jacobs chucks to make them more useful. |
| - guru - Saturday, 10/18/03 23:48:36 EDT |
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Adam, electric arc wouldn't work well (if at all) for a forge... it's basically a really powerful "point source" of heat, and the melting is accomplished by conduction from that point. Also the point is at about 5000-6000 deg. F if memory serves; you'd end up casting the steel instead of forging it. I think I may've seen the same designs, they sure do look like handy little furnaces. All sorts of projects ramping up in Kaneohe, Hawaii. |
| T Gold - Sunday, 10/19/03 00:27:08 EDT |
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Indoor Forges: Many of us have coal, oil and gas forges indoors. Fireplaces too. They all require a chimney or vent. Gas forges require less venting than others but still need a vent (or ventilation). They can often be operated in any location where a window and door are kept open. One unique gas forge I have heard described was a large oxy-propane fired unit. It was run only on demand by a foot peddle, probably using an economizer valve unit. Peter Fels has a similar torch setup but this was a large rosebud or mutltiple torch heads set in a refractory surface. The advantage is short operation times at very high heat and low fumes. It is not the perfect forge (none is) but it has some tremondous advantages and could probably be operated without a vent. One drawback is the cost of oxygen. Operating costs probably make most electric forges prohibitively expensive to operate. A resistance unit would be much cheaper than induction but would require preheat time. The BEST electric resistance system for forging and bending is direct resistance. Electrodes are attached to the bar to be heated and the power turned on. This requires a VERY heavy transfomer unit but is much less sophisticated and probably more efficient than induction heating. The disadvantages are arc burns at the contact points. I do not know of a source of these machines but the WERE made. I have seen a demonstration of one used to heat armature bars in the restoration of the Statue of Liberty and I have seen electic resistance rivet heaters in catalogs. Don't snicker, we are talking about LARGE rivits used for heavy streuctural steel heated to a yellow heat in seconds. . . (1" by 3-4" long. . .). the rivet was held in tongs and placed between two copper electrodes that were closed on the rivet ends by a foot pedle. Hmnmnmnmn.. HOT! |
| - guru - Sunday, 10/19/03 00:27:52 EDT |
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More about p: For ALL practical calculations 3.1416 is more than accuate enough. The only place it is not is for astro physics or astro navigation where miniscule errors in angles can result in errors of millions of miles. Almost all pocket calculators have PI built in to 13 or 16 decimal places. The old TI-30's had it as a primary function and then (stupidly) it was moved to a second function. I bought the last dozen of the old style TI-30-SLR's I could. Almost all programming languages have a function or built in constant for PI and so do spread sheets (@PI). Even when not directly available every 286 and UP Intel chip had it built in. AND if you can access this site using a PC it is available from the OS's built in calculator to about 32 places. . . (turn on scientific mode). I suspect it is available on Macs too. It is also listed with constants in every math, physics or engineering reference including MACHINERY'S HANDBOOK. So, either remember 3.1416 OR don't and just know that you can find it on almost any electronic device. |
| - guru - Sunday, 10/19/03 00:48:40 EDT |
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It would most likely be possible to run the oxy-propane on-demand forge the Guru described on compressed air instead of oxygen. Guru, got any figures on resistance heating? Sounds interesting; reminds me of the "Lagrange-Hoho Water Pail Forge". Still thinking about making one of those... got a bunch of extremely good diodes courtesy of Mother Russia during the summer, sounds like a good application of 'em for me. Cool and windy in Kaneohe, Hawaii. |
| T Gold - Sunday, 10/19/03 04:52:29 EDT |
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Thanks to all for the fasinating discussion on PI. Larry |
| - l.sundstrom - Sunday, 10/19/03 07:55:25 EDT |
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Pie are square? All seriousness aside, Ace Reid, cowboy cartoonist extraordinare, shows a cowboy sittin' at the table figgerin'. As I recall, he sez, "Pie are square? Pie are round; cornbread are square! |
| Frank Turley - Sunday, 10/19/03 08:16:08 EDT |
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T Gold: You're probably right about induction not being practical. However "small" units ARE avalible. 1000 watts (1KW) is not a lot of electricity, same as a little over 1 horsepower. Electricity is only being used when a part is in the field. I recently picked up a 15 KW unit of recent vintage for $500.00. Current retail on this unit is over $40,000.00! The "impractical" part. If memory serve me, rule of thumb is you can heat about 15 pounds of steel to forging heat per hour per KW. I used to have a 100 KW unit that we used constantly. |
| - grant - Sunday, 10/19/03 10:19:02 EDT |
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Gosh darn it! THAT's how I got to earth. I didn't carry Pi out far enough in my space travel calcs. Probably screwed up in my gravity hook around orions belt..... I was shooting for Venus. Heard they got some "hot" babes there. Another mystery valuably solved by the guru page! |
| - Zaphod Beeblebrox. (aka Tony) - Sunday, 10/19/03 10:30:38 EDT |
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Carbon monoxide CO/ and Carbon Dioxide: both are killers. I worked for several years testing cars for emissions and have had some nasty times with CO poisoning. What happens is the CO molecule attaches to the blood cell in the same way that Oxygen and Carbon Dioxide do in the respiratory cycle. The problem is that the CO molecule does not release when you breath out, and remains attached, this makes the blood cell unable to receive a new oxygen, taking the blood cell out of the game. Enough and you are dead in minutes, small doses can remain in the system for as long as a week and exposures as small as 10 parts per billion are cumulative. Short term symptoms: headache mild to severe, nausea, respiratory failure, slurred speech, confusion, long term symptoms: Heart and brain damage Treatment is difficult because the blood will not accept more oxygen, and a pressure chamber, like the diving chamber used for the bends, may be needed to force Oxygen directly to the cells. Both CO and CO2 are byproducts of burning any hydrocarbon (coal, charcoal, gas, gasoline, fuel oil). CO is produced if there is not enough oxygen (a reducing flame or a rich mixture) the carbon combines with one oxygen i.e.: CO. A complete burn (neutral flame) will produce CO2. both will are heavier than air and will replace the oxygen that you are using up in a closed space. Both are colorless and odorless and deadly. Your local hardware store has detectors for both CO, and CO2, the best IMHO, is produced by Nighthawk, and has a numeric display that will detect low levels of exposure and has a cumulative algorithm that will set the alarm off if low levels are detected over a long time. A quick check of the digital display will show low level transitory exposure. Price on the last one I bought was about $50 USD. My advice: Get one, USE IT! for more information http://www.coheadquarters.com and http://www.coheadquarters.com/ChronicCO/coSyndrome1.htm |
| habu - Sunday, 10/19/03 10:45:26 EDT |
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Re: CO in todays news http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,100526,00.html the final sentence in this story is inaccurate CO can be fatal in SMALL quanties. |
| habu - Sunday, 10/19/03 10:55:26 EDT |
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On Demand Forge: The reason for the O2 was the high heat necessary for hand held work in a small unit. Compressed air only results in the same flame temperatures as a venturi burner. CO carbonmonoxide is the reason all welding and forge shops need plenty of room, high ceilings and lots of ventilation. As mentioned by Jeff many folks with small shops do their forging and welding out doors. Even with a large shop I prefer to take these out doors or where there is LOTS of fresh air. The problem with low ceilings is that hot forge fumes collect at head height and above. Even with good ventilation you can end up breathing a lot of nasty fumes. 8 foot ceilings are much too low, 10 foot is better but still marginal, 12 to 16 are good. Above that is great but even 20 foot ceilings are low in an industrial environment. In recent years we had all kinds of "alternative" heating systems. One that was popular was kerosene heaters. For years we supplemented our heat with the old blue black "country" sytle kerosene heaters. They were smokey, you always smelled oil fumes and if it were not for the fact that our place was unbelievably drafty they would have been dangerous. Later there was the "kerosun" craz along with wood heat. These heaters were touted as having revolutionary "clean" burning burners. . . They were no different than the old cheap hardware store heater we had used in the past when the wick was well maintained. But there WAS a difference. People were using them in tight modern homes. Utter stupidity. I am sure there is a whole generation with respiratory ailments due to the use of these things. . . The point? THINK about your work environment. If you have smoke or fumes that are noticable then there is probably more going on than you think. A good CO monitor in a useful location is a good idea. But in the end you need ventilation, ventilation, ventilation. |
| - guru - Sunday, 10/19/03 12:12:42 EDT |
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All Time SPAM Low: The most recent SPAM from China (remember the articles last month saying they were curbing SPAM - HA!). I am still getting the same load of Chinese SPAM as always. Now this. The most recent SPAM from China offers export laborers "We can supply excellence special class cook of Sichuan, females and males, therapy masseurs, Nurse, Sewing-worker. . . |
| - guru - Sunday, 10/19/03 12:24:44 EDT |
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e to the x, e to the x, e to the x dx! cosine, tangent, hyperbolic sine, 3.14159! (you know that the "ivy league" was originally a *football* league...) Thomas |
| Thomas P - Sunday, 10/19/03 13:00:38 EDT |
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A thought on ventilation, A often overlooked method of ventilation is the turbine ventilator. I was lucky to obtain a 24" turbine ventilator surplus, and installed it over my gas forge. put a large intake louver on the opposite wall. This wind power turbine maves over a thousand cubic feet of air per minute in a soft breeze. No smoke, no fumes in the face, as the intake is at my back. Remember, to vent you need more intake capacity then exhaust. |
| ptree - Sunday, 10/19/03 13:52:15 EDT |
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HOw much are the nurses? Just curious. |
| adam - Sunday, 10/19/03 14:16:00 EDT |
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I am looking for current contact information for: Bill Fiorini and Kristen Skiles, AKA Koka Metalsmiths. Their current telephone listing (507-643-7946)is incorrect. |
| - guru - Sunday, 10/19/03 16:39:33 EDT |
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Guru, info for Fiorini and Skiles to you via email |
| - Aksmith - Sunday, 10/19/03 19:15:58 EDT |
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Post Drills For those of you that have a post drill fitted with a jacobs chuck. How did you do this? I have my own ideas but would like to see if it jives with mine. I have a few 1/2 " shank bits but would like to bring this thing up to speed. Thanks |
| - Ron J. - Sunday, 10/19/03 20:18:27 EDT |
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Ron J, I have a drill press dating from about 1917-1920, not a post drill, but it came with an odd, old chuck. I took out the spindle, took it and my chuck to a trade school that had a machine shop. The Jacob's chuck has specific mount threads depending on chuck size. I think mine was a "medium duty" chuck threaded for 5/8"-11. So the school turned down the spindle and threaded it, making it the proper length. And on goes the chuck. There are large machinist supply catalogs, such as MSC, etc. I have had good luck over the years getting shop nessities from Travers Tool Co., Flushing, New York. They carry Jacobs chucks and much other stuff. |
| Frank Turley - Sunday, 10/19/03 21:32:35 EDT |
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Anyone know any good books or any information on Drop Forging. Also anything particular on forging stainless steel, eg. Types of stainless, hardening, heat treating, etc. |
| Peter C - Sunday, 10/19/03 22:18:34 EDT |
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Peter C., I use abebooks.com frequently, and I typed in the "keyword", 'drop forging', on their site. There are a number of books available, but I fear some of the info may be outdated, because many of the books are from the early and mid twentieth century. My personal books which I use as references are: "Forging Industry Handbook", Jon E. Jenson, Ed., Forging Industry Association, Cleveland, Ohio, 1970; and "Manual of Open Die Forgings", Open Die Forging Industry, New York, 1949. The subject is quite broad. Besides open die work, there is closed die forging, some with flash, some without. It would be good if a guy could get a union apprenticeship in a plant. According to one old hand, Clifton Ralph, the present day apprenticeships are disappearing in the U.S. and the ones available are becoming attenuated. However, Ralph didn't state it so nicely. Again, with respect to the use of the books, I would be circumspect in taking everything they say as gospel. I visited the Bethlehem Forging Plant in Pennsylvania in 1976. At that time, it was considered the premier large- forging plant in the U.S. Now, it is no more. |
| Frank Turley - Sunday, 10/19/03 23:28:32 EDT |
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Peter C., Sorry, I overlooked the last part of your questions. I think Carpenter Technology Corporation puts out good information on stainlesses. cartech.com |
| Frank Turley - Sunday, 10/19/03 23:37:24 EDT |
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I also have a caulking vise, and it is a green river no. 2. Dont know if green river is a brand made by another bigger company or not. Around here, green river was also the site of serial killings, and a funny tasting green soft drink. And a real river, I used to swim in. |
| - Ries - Sunday, 10/19/03 23:59:29 EDT |
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Just a quick question on stamping work. I have seen many smiths stamp their work with a personal ID. I was wondering how one would make their own personal stamp. I have a few ideas of how I could do it through casting, but I was wondering if there was a proven way of doing it the right way. Any advice would help... |
| Joseph - Monday, 10/20/03 00:25:41 EDT |
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Joseph, Check out i-forge demo #65 on this site. It covers touchmarks using a number of different techniques, and has pictures to boot! |
| eander4 - Monday, 10/20/03 01:45:15 EDT |
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Guru, I have a bunch of old coat hangers and my dad’s Zippo lighter and I want to make a Damascus swords. How do I get started?………… Sorry, That just slipped out. I know you guys get tired of the redundant requests, so I’ll be quick: Saturday, I picked up an anvil for a friend of mine who is just getting started. It is marked “FISHER” on the front of the base (this would mean it’s probably a Fisher, duh?). It is marked “1902” across the base on the heel end and has “100” on the right front foot. There is a big eagle holding an anchor on the side. I appears to be of 4 piece construction; 2 pc. base, horn, face. It needs some tlc,; the edges of the face are chipped, nothing a little grinder and sander won’t fix. Got it for $100. Are these decent anvils? I just wanted to let my friend know what he had, and I don’t know a lot about these. Thanks, as always, for the info. |
| - Don Abbott - Monday, 10/20/03 08:22:34 EDT |
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Ron J. The old chuck on my post drill had a unique chuck that was held in place with a set screw. Had a short piece of rod threaded on one end to fit the Jacob's type and flattened on the other so the set screw would hold good. That end now works fine, but have to mess with the self feed mechanism which keeps falling off of the top wheel with the threads. |
| timh - Monday, 10/20/03 09:03:19 EDT |
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Fisher Norris Eagle Anvils Don, These are a steel faced cast iron anvil. They were the first production anvil manufactured in the United States. The construction (face welded on in the casting process) was a patent process that produces inexpensive anvils. Many consider them a good anvil. The cast body makes them very quite compared to a forged anvil. Folks either love them or hate them. |
| - guru - Monday, 10/20/03 09:30:58 EDT |
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Wondering what maintenance I should do on my Acme post drill. It looks in very good shape - in fact it looks like it was hardly used. However, all the bearings are dry and the shaft has some rust on it. Should I just oil it or should I try and strip it and clean off the rust? Anything else I need to do? Thanks |
| post drill - Monday, 10/20/03 09:51:50 EDT |
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Machine Maintenance: Adam, The shaft on the drill feeds through the drive gear and the lower bearing. Rust on the shaft will cause these surfaces to wear. I would polish off the rust with fine grit wet-or-dry sand paper (180 then 320). The ball thrust bearings are infamous for wearing out and falling apart. I have had to re-machine the shaft on all my post drills and refit modern bearings. Clean the bearings in solvent to remove varnish (folks often lubricated things with oils that dryed and hardened) and then lubricate. The thrust bearing should be lubed with good wheel bearing grease and the rest kept oiled. If these old machines (without seals and lubricators) are not dripping with oil they are not properly lubricated. |
| - guru - Monday, 10/20/03 11:41:58 EDT |
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I have fitted a Jacaobs CHuck in my post drill. And thanks to guru I have made the arm for the auto feed. Hooked up a 1/2 hp moter to it and pullied it down to approx 500 rpm. Works very well. Use it more than the elt one I had bought yrs ago. When the bit gets stuck the belt just falls off. Don't auto feed on it with hydro, Its goes to fast,. They are a very good piece of equipment for th shop. Doug Potter were you at CanIron this year ? I meet a few of the Vancouver smiths there.. I am from Ontario Canada North BAy |
| Barney - Monday, 10/20/03 11:50:16 EDT |
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Does anyone know where I may be able to get an antique iron bed frame modified? I'd like to get the side railings extended and the headboard height extended. It was once shortened. Hopefully a place in southeastern Michigan/Metro Detroit area. Many thanks for any info. you can post for me. |
| deb - Monday, 10/20/03 12:00:21 EDT |
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Post Drill Chucks: Standard model Jacobs chucks have a taper in the chuck body. These are similar to Morse tapers but are very short and are designated a Jacobs Tapers (JT). You can remove the arbor from an old Jacobs chuck and replace it with one with a 1/2" shank to fit your post drill. You could also re-machine arbors from #2 MT up to 1/2" diameter if you have a lathe and are a competent machinist. McMaster-Carr lists the chuck sizes and tapers and has the 1/2" arbors. To remove the old arbor is sometimes difficult. To drive it out you can drill a hole inside the chuck (where the bit goes). Some chucks come with a hole but most do not. It does not hurt the chuck to drill this access hole. You can use up to a 3/8" hole in a 1/2" chuck. The body of the chuck is soft and drillable. After drilling blow out the chips and squirt in some penetrating oil. After the parts have soaked use a hard punch to drive out the arbor. Some arbors have a shoulder and a U shaped wedge can be used to remove the arbor but I have found this to work on only a few very large chucks. If you do not know which taper your chuck has you can find the dimensions in MACHINERY'S HANDBOOK. Threaded chucks, usualy taken off old portable drills, can also be adapted as Frank noted. I have used a 5/8" bolt and machined the shank to make an arbor that worked. The best chuck for a post drill is a 0-1/2" number 34-33 (McMaster #2812A16 ) and a 1/2" x 33JT arbor (McMaster #2811A59 $11.28 $74.99). The 1/2" shank will need a flat ground on it for the set screw. Even though you will probably pay as much or more for the Jacobs chuck and arbor as you did for the post drill it is well worth it. These machines are great for drilling small holes and holes in odd work. I do not recommend them for holes over 1/2" (13mm) but it CAN be done. I've drill short holes as big as 3/4" (19mm) in mine starting with a 1/4" (6mm) pilot hole. Some of the bigger drills with 2 speeds are geared down and work better than the smaller sizes for large holes. |
| - guru - Monday, 10/20/03 12:19:35 EDT |
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Post Drill Mounting: As mentioned above most of these came mounted on a board from the factory. Usualy this gave just enough clearance behind the drill for the crank to turn. However, this does not provide knuckle clearance. Be sure to mount the drill so that you have plenty of clearance behind the crank. The drill also needs to be mounted at a comfortable height. Usualy the the crank wheel needs to be at about shoulder height. Too high or too low and it greatly increases the effort to use the drill. This past week we had the portable shop setup on a hill with the drill on the low side. The extra 8" of height made it painful to operate the crank under low load using a 3/16" (5mm) drill bit. |
| - guru - Monday, 10/20/03 12:21:36 EDT |
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Bed Frame: Deb, Any welding shop should be able to do this for you. You may want to look in the Yellow pages under "Ironworks". These are the guys that usualy do misc metal work including railing jobs. Often Blacksmiths are listed under this heading. |
| - guru - Monday, 10/20/03 12:24:04 EDT |
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The guru states that these old machines should be dripping when properly lubed. YES, if using oil. If the surfaces are able to be greased, with a high moly content paste type grease, the dripping can be elimanated.Try Dow Corning MOLYKOTE GN assembly paste. Buy the smallest tube available as a TINY amount will cover the world. This product is about 70% moly, and the remainder is stuff to make it tacky and a paste. Try this on high wear threads etc and you will be amazed. I did research on acme threaded valve stems years ago, and found that nothing would approach the resistance to wear of a high moly paste. I was wearing the test threads out/galling in about 35 cycles of the tester with standard grease, never seize etc. The moly paste went about 15,000 cycles. Standard auto grease marked as MOLY has from 1 to 2 1/2% moly. This grade will pump thru a standard grease gun. This is a good forzerk applications where the grease can be renewed often. The 70% will not pump!Apply with a stiff artists brush. This stuff has a very fine powder that will stain your hands by getting into the cracks in the skin, and then has to wear off! The advantage of oil is that it will wash out scale,chips etc if properly applied. At my current employ we run large upset forgers, and the heavy gear oil goes into the bearings under pressure, and is forced out. These bearings are mostly about 24" dia. and up, and 12" and up wide This is a total loss system,With 7 upsetters using about 1400 gallons a week. With the value of these machines, we accept the cost of the oil to make sure that the bearings do not get scale into them. |
| ptree - Monday, 10/20/03 12:27:08 EDT |
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Looking for Bill Fiorini and Kriten Skiles. Note that all listed numbers for these folks are incorrect or out of service. |
| - guru - Monday, 10/20/03 12:31:21 EDT |
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Jock, I may have Bill and Kirsten's web site in my bookmark file, but I can't access it until my puter is back up. |
| Paw Paw - Monday, 10/20/03 13:47:35 EDT |
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Their site has been off line for some time. |
| - guru - Monday, 10/20/03 14:34:33 EDT |
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I have a Buffalo Forge cast iron forge with a patent date of 1876. It is a shallow pan about 24 by 18. I am about to line it with Sairset adn wonder how deep the lining should be. |
| Don B - Monday, 10/20/03 15:00:01 EDT |
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I admit ignorance on the archive use. I did go there and inquired about copper and copper forging. Can you explain to me how to get any info from the archive concerning this subject? No offence to ViCopper, but that seems to be the word the search hits on. Yes, true, I am not an agressive archive searcher. Could anyone expound on copper forging? I think that I would like to try the copper. I have several small aluminum forgings, but seem to get flaking, splitting and general non-acceptable results with copper. |
| - Steve - Monday, 10/20/03 17:46:09 EDT |
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am in need of a vise jaw for a model 23x bench vise manufactured by c. parker co. meriden ct. any one know where to get one???? . thanks chris |
| - chris - Monday, 10/20/03 18:37:32 EDT |
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OBTW, when I spoke of moly paste, I forgot to mention that the friction dropped so much that fasteners reached thier ulitmate torque and failed at much lower torgues. Just means that the fastner was more efficient, and reached tensile load at a lower torque. So,,, if you use this paste on your flypress threads, It will hit harder for a GIVEN TORQUE. This paste was also very good for its anti-galling effect on 316 fastners in 316 solids. Only way we could reach clamp load in production was to put moly paste on every fastner! OBTW, for the best antisieze at temp's up to 1000F I tested most on the market. Post if interested. |
| ptree - Monday, 10/20/03 21:11:30 EDT |
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ptree, I'm interested in the tests on antisieze. Thank you |
| - ironspider - Monday, 10/20/03 22:12:07 EDT |
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how do i list a 200lb beaudry power hammer that is running in my shop now in sonoma ca 4sale 3500.00 will load on your truck aprox wt 5500lb safty gards on belts 7.5 3ph mortor new drive belts 3ph concator running now come by and test drive it shop ph 707 996 8541 or e me gordon |
| gordonsforge - Monday, 10/20/03 22:38:14 EDT |
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Forging Copper: Pure copper is terrific for forging, as it can be worked in a temperature range from cold to an orange heat. The problem is, pure copper is very difficult to come by. Anode bars for plating are usually pure copper and you can sometimes find those. Copper for machining generally has lead added to improve the machining qualities, but the lead makes hot forging quite a bit more risky. Lead can also cause cracking fduring cold forging of copper. Assuming you can get some copper that is either pure or an alloy intended for hot forging, you can work it at heats up to orange. Pure copper can be worked at near yellow heat, where it forges about like soft butter. Alloys usually shouldn't be taken above orange, and some aren't safe above bright red. Most alloys can be forged cold af ter annealing. Copper work hardens when worked cold and must be periodically annealed by heating to cherry red and quenching in cold water or pickling solution. The quench in pickling solution removes the firescale (oxides) that form on the lsurface when copper is heated above a black heat. A suitable pickling solution for copper is 1 part sulfuric acid to 9 parts water. Add the acid to the water, not the other way around, or you'll get a steam explosion. Of course, wear appropriate safety clothing and face shield. A somewhat safer solution is Sparex No. 2 jeweler's pickle, sold at places like Rio Grande Supply. If you're cold-working copper, anneal it when it begins to resist the hammer. If you wait to long to anneal, it will crack. Copper is easy to hot forge, but difficult to achieve fine detail hot. Since it becomes so sof when heated, areas next to the spot you are working may deform due to transferred stresses. Do the bulk of your heavy forging hot, then finish cold to isolate detail and work-harden the finished piece. The flaking and splitting you mention sound like the results of hot forging a lead-bearing copper. If you're going to forge copper hot, buy new metal of a known composition suitable for hot work. Salvaged copper is much too likely to have undesirable alloying elements added. |
| vicopper - Monday, 10/20/03 22:45:24 EDT |
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Anvil ID A friend has a mouse hole that looks like, and is marked like, the one currently on eBay, #3248738629, except weighs about 150 and is marked "16" on the side instead of "19", (and has had pritchel hole drilled). Anybody have an idea of it's age? Thanks |
| Tom H - Monday, 10/20/03 22:49:47 EDT |
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Copper: Steve, I just tried the archives. Sorry, It seems that there is something different about our new server and it returns all the archives with every search. We have been writing a new search routine but I have not had the time to get up to speed in Php and get it working the way I want. The following is the protoytpe search. Try it. Click on the returned links NOT the pointer icon. The pointer is supposed to call a second routine (which we lost) that returns a block of text with the search phrase from the selected file. The AND and OR routines are also broke (do not change the default settings). However, the pattern matching is very good and actually returns decent results. New Search Alpha Test I used "forging copper" as a search term and got two files with decent answers. Once you load a file you need to click on the window with the file, press CTRL-F, then enter your search term again. That should take you to each case of the term. If our secondary search routine were working it would return the actual text. . . There is copper and there is copper. The purity of the copper makes a big difference. Most copper wire and copper buss bar is 99.99% pure and oxygen free. This makes it VERY soft and maleable. Copper can be forged hot but I find that brasses and coppers work well from hot into the cold range (they are annealed from the heating). As the metal gets work hardened then it needs to be heated again. If you are getting splitting this is usualy from working work hardened metal OR reducing the section too much without reheating (working cold too long). I'm not sure what you mean by flaking. You can get copper and brass to scale but you have to over heat it pretty bad or use a highly oxidizing flame. Generally it is hard to overheat as the metals melt before scaling. So the problem may be the wrong heating condition. Generally copper and its alloys forge like butter. The trick is to not melt them. The forging temperature is just a tad shy of the melting point. Most of these alloys show a slight blush on the surface just as they hit the forgeable temperature. However, once oxidized it is hard to discern. If you work in VERY low light you can heat until you seen the slightest glow in the metal. Try forging some heavy guage copper wire or some brazing rod. Both forge very well and should behave about the same. If you have trouble with these then there is something you are doing wrong. Note that "copper" ground bars are often copper CLAD steel bars (not solid copper). I have seen them forged but it is very tricky. The bar is worked very near the melting point of the copper to get the medium carbon steel up to a working temperature. |
| - guru - Monday, 10/20/03 23:03:56 EDT |
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Vise Parts: Chris, Most of the good old American Vise manufacturers have gone out of business and there are no parts. The only outfit that I know of that handles SOME replacement vise parts is McMaster-Carr. Generally if you need jaws for a vise you are better off to make them yourself. Machinists vises often have very aggresively knurled or cut teeth on the jaws that tear work all too pieces. I much prefer smooth jaws. Vise jaws are often hardened and tempered but can be made of a high carbon steel and then normalized for a harder condition than the usual annealed machinable condition. You can go to the trouble of hardening and tempering but the problem is that steel grows when hardened. If the jaws use the typical countersunk screws it is very tricky getting the spacing just right so that they are a good fit after hardening. Growth varries with the type of tools steel. The more expensive oil and air hardening steels grow less than the cheaper water hardening types. |
| - guru - Monday, 10/20/03 23:18:33 EDT |
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Anvil Age: Tom, If the pritichel hole was not original and drilled later then it is the same approximate age as the anvil listed on ebay. If the pritichel hole is original (they were punched at Mousehole) then the anvil is post 1830-38 to about 1870 or so. |
| - guru - Monday, 10/20/03 23:26:46 EDT |
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Thanks Jock for the quick reply. Enjoyed meeting you at Norris. |
| Tom H - Monday, 10/20/03 23:33:17 EDT |
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Lining Forges: Don, the claying in cast iron forges was simply to prevent thermal shock (too fast heating or cooling). The clay was usualy only 1/2" to 3/4". Refractory clays were used but not necessary and refractory cements were not recommended but could be used. The only factory claying diagram I have seen was for a flat bottom forge and showed a ducks nest or pot built up around the grate and bridging the joint between the tuyeer and the pan. |
| - guru - Monday, 10/20/03 23:33:32 EDT |
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More about Drill Chucks: Worn out old electric drills are a good source of chucks (when the chuck is not worn out). Most of these are threaded on and fairly easy to remove. However, if the drill was reversable open the jaws and LOOK inside. To keep the threaded chuck from unthreading when reversed there is often a left hand socket head cap screw inside the chuck. If there IS a screw it may be burried in chips, swarf and dirt. You may have to pick and scrape it clean. Any time you find one of these they are always threaded left hand. Remove the screw first THEN the right hand thread chuck. Jacobs chucks can be dismantled and repaired. There are parts replacement kits consisting of new jaws and split nut. However, these are often almost as expensive as a new chuck and can take a while to get delivery. To dissasemble a Jacobs chuck you need a tube that fits over the short part of the body that sticks above the tightening sleave. Then using a vise or arbor press you push the sleave off the split nut (toward the nose of the chuck). Be sure the jaws are closed before disasembly. Once the sleave is off the two part nut falls off and the jaws can be removed. On some chucks the jaws are numbered and on some they are not. Clean the parts then inspect them. Normally the jaws wear on the contact surface toward the nose. On sharp 0 up size jaws there will be a flat worn at at the nose. This is the result of slipping bits and causes bits to clamp crooked and not hold well. You can repair these by grinding and hand stoning the flat until it is the same width on the contact length of the jaws and the same on all three jaws. The chuck will no longer chuck from zero (wire size drills) but is will still work well. While I have chucks apart I dress the nose with a file if it is beaten or worn. I have had some that I machined 1/16" off to clean up. I also look for burred and raised edges caused by chips caught in the chuck and dress them with a file or stone. Fit the jaws and make sure they slide smoothly. Look for broken threads. Abused chucks often have missing threads on the jaws or nut. These must have replacements. On reassebly note that the split nut parts have a tapered thread to match the angle of the jaws. Be sure to assemble correctly. Lubricate the parts with a little grease (some of that molybdenum disulfide grease will work well). Then press the shell back on. It should seat firmly on the nut and just leave about 1/16" of the upper body showing. Often just dissasembling and giving a good cleaning make a world of difference in a chuck. Jacobs has held very tight tolerances on all its parts from the very beginning in 1916. That is why you can get replacement parts that FIT and you can often use parts out of one chuck to repair another. They also use a limited number of chuck keys. Note however that other brands use different gear pitches and not all chuck keys the same approximate size fit each other. Stick with Jacobs brand. They are the best. These things see all kinds of abuse other than wear (hammering, running against hard objects, tightening with pipe wrenches, welded on shanks). I have a box of chucks that came with one machine with ALL the abuses. . . Keep the old ones. They parts are all interchangable among a range of sizes and types. NOTE: Jacobs makes a heavy duty Ball Bearing chuck (they are clearly labled as such). These dissasemble just like the others except they have a ball thrust bearing above the nut. When disasembled the balls are loose and can run out everywhere (as steel balls are prone to do). A little grease to hold the balls in place and these reassemble just as easy as the standard chuck. |
| - guru - Tuesday, 10/21/03 00:13:34 EDT |
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Hi there it's me again I finished my first major project a bbq stand and i hate but i think it will make a great plant holder!!!!!! i wanted to ask about vices i bought a post vice with 6 inch jaws but maybe its not really a post vice as it has a huge piece of pipe welded on the bottom that gets bolted into the ground so really has no leg as such some it looks home made ie the pipe bit but it doesnt appear to have the leg part cut off anywhere. were these type of vices made factory or is it a home made job of a broken one. even without the pipe it is still quite heavy (my husband and i can just lift it into the ute) i am hoping to bolt it into the ground at home but would like to know if you guys think it would be still useful. confused yet!! thanks for you help cheers rainy day in Oz |
| banjo - Tuesday, 10/21/03 08:02:24 EDT |
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Banjo, The movable jaw on a leg vise has its own mini-leg which pivots on a bolt a little distance below the gripping portion of the jaw. A machinist's vise has a horizontal slide, so the jaw has a parallel opening and closure on the work. Depictions of leg vises are usually shown on ebay.com. Type 'leg post vise' in the "What are You Looking For" area, and check them out. |
| Frank Turley - Tuesday, 10/21/03 09:02:57 EDT |
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Blacksmith Leg or Post Vises See our FAQ page or almost any book on blacksmithing. IF your stand mounted vise is a good heavy vise then there is nothing wrong with it. However, machinist vises are usualy cast iron, ductile or semi-steel and not designed to take the pounding of a forged blacksmith leg vise. The other differences are that they generally do not have as deep of working space between the top of the jaws and the screw. I know a lot of smiths that use these rather than leg vises simply because that is what they have and they are easy to mount on a welding table, bench or platen. Pipe and structural vise stands often tend to be springy and are not as solid as a bench or post sunk in the ground. |
| - guru - Tuesday, 10/21/03 09:20:08 EDT |
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More Vises/Vices: Simply can't have enough. . . Note that SOME very high quality cast steel and forged steel bench vises have been made and are being made. Peddinghaus currently makes a line of forged steel vises and offers a leg "attachment". I believe Pieh Tool carries them. Most of the vises you see mounted on utility truck bumpers are these heavy duty forged vises. Because these ARE a better quality and are different than other vises they usualy have the fact that they are steel marked on them. |
| - guru - Tuesday, 10/21/03 09:30:48 EDT |
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DANGER DANGER DANGER hooking up a hand crank drill to electricity may not be a good idea! I talked with a Knifemaker at a guild show once that wanted to save some $$ and so did just that. When he was doing a bit of finicky drilling he was watching the bit real carefully and reached up to advance it and got his fingers caught in the gearing---that was spinning nicely due to the motor. They saved the fingers but after thousands in medical cost *and* several months not being able to work with that hand he reckoned he hadn't saved all that much... Copper working: one problem with copper is that as you work it hot copper oxide is formed and accumulates along crystal boundries. When enough builds up the piece begins to flake, splinter, etc as the oxide is brittle and not malleable. To help prevent this: use a low a temp and as few heats as possible, don't let a piece "soak", keep it in a reducing atmosphere when heating and do all your work in a hard vacuum! (I've never managed that last part but would be happy to do the experiment in LEO or even further out...) Thomas 2-10-10 (eyes fingers toes) |
| Thomas P - Tuesday, 10/21/03 10:39:02 EDT |
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Ironspider, I ran tests on many of the popular anti-seizes a few years back. Took a cr-moly steel female threaded sample, and a male sample threaded to match. The threads were about 3" o.d. 16 pitch as I remember. Applied the test antiseize and then torqued to about 800 ft#'s. then heated to 1000F and cooled for 5 cycles. Then we tried to unscrew the parts. We stopped and considered the parts seized at about 2400ft#'s. We only found three anti-seizes that worked. One was the moly paste, but with the highest unscrew torque. The next best was a titanium disulfide spray.At $125/can a bit rich. The best was Molykote Anti-seize 1000. As I recall we spent about $15/# for this stuff, and used it in threaded joints for use in high pressure/temperture steam service valves. Some of these valves were in 1200F service, and had to be disassembled for repair. |
| ptree - Tuesday, 10/21/03 12:46:57 EDT |
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Motorized Post Drills: I have seen this done and it did not look very safe to me either. Too many exposed gears. However, many models came with pulley systems to attach to line shafting. AND even when hand cranked, that heavy fly wheel propuces enough force when you are not cranking to chew up and spit out a handful of fingers. . . The later floor model "sensitive" drill presses had guards over the top gears and feed gears. The belts, though exposed, were a distance from the operator at the back of the machine. But I would not want to operate one blind. There are still lots of dangerous places on these machines. I have no problem with old machinery that is poorly guarded (by modern standards). However, I am highly aware of everything going on in a machine I am operating. I usualy pay as more or more attention to the machine than the work. Many people are not nearly as attentive to the machine. That is why I can usualy get away with driving 10-15 year old autos for YEARS without trouble when others couldn't keep the same vehical going for a month. |
| - guru - Tuesday, 10/21/03 12:53:09 EDT |
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Molyckote: I have always been a Neversieze fan and use it on all kinds of fasteners on my car, truck and in the shop. I have never had a part seize (including old exhust parts) treated with Neverseize. But few of these things see the kind of service Jeff is talking about. I know that the Nuclear industry uses Molykote or a similar molybdenum disulfide product on primary coolant pump studs (4 to 6 inches in diameter, stretched 1/4"). The problem they have however is distortion of the pump case that binds studs or bolts. They end up torching the bolts off. Once out of a bind however the parts USUALY unthread by hand. Those that do not are usualy the ones that have been over-stretched and the threads are no longer their original pitch. . . These must be machined out, Molyckote or not. Many years ago we used Molyckote on Soap Box dearby parts. They sold a drying version that filled in imperfections in the metal parts and recomended it as an assembly treatment, not full time lubricant. In the 1970's we used it as an assembly lubricant in sports car engines. The claim was the same as in the 1960's, filling the small imperfctions in bearing surfaces making them better. I figured it washed out pretty quick but either is hard to prove. Currently Oak Hill Ironworks (BigBLUhammers.com) is selling a molybdenum disulfide and graphite mixture called Puncheize for hot punching. I have not tried it yet but many folks swear by it. |
| - guru - Tuesday, 10/21/03 13:12:24 EDT |
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NOTE: Molykote and Neversieze are different products. Neversieze is a copper/nickle powder lubricant. Its forte is stopping bimetalic corrosion. This is due to its conductivity which connects the parts so that the electrical path is not the corrosive one. It is also a very good high pressure high temperature lubricant. It is commonly used on the wheel bearings of car bottom furnaces. |
| - guru - Tuesday, 10/21/03 13:19:27 EDT |
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In the USN nuclear program we used colloidial graphite suspended in molybdenum and isopropal alcohol... If I remeeber correctly. it is now 13 years since I got out of the Navy... :^) |
| Ralph - Tuesday, 10/21/03 13:59:57 EDT |
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Hi all!! This question has probably been asked before, but how does one interpret the weight numbers on a Peter Wright anvil? Mine has 080 on the base. I have read several formulas for figuing it out, one of which would maker it 80 lbs (simply reading the numbers) but this seems too light to me. The other says that the first number id "hundredweight" or 112lbs, the second "1/4 hundredweight" or 28lbs, and the third simply pounds. This would make my anvil 112lbs, which seems a bit heavy. But then, maybe I don't know my own strength. I have no accurate means to weigh it. Any elp is appreciated. KArl |
| Karl - Tuesday, 10/21/03 14:05:23 EDT |
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Thanks, Jock, for your information and quick response to my question on modifying my antique iron bed frame. |
| deb - Tuesday, 10/21/03 14:18:59 EDT |
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Thanks to guru, ViCopper and Thomas for the copper forging info. Also, I'll try the search again. |
| - Steve - Tuesday, 10/21/03 14:36:00 EDT |
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Ralph, that sounds like the stuff. I remember it was black and dried (the alcohol) on the threads. Anvil weight: Karl, it is often hard to read these numbers. In the hundredweight (Cwt) system used on almost all British anvils the second value will never be over three. 3 x 28 = 84 pounds. That is probably the weight (note 8 x 28 is 224# not 112). Being close to 80 pounds someone that did not understand the system may have tried to change the 3 to an 8. |
| - guru - Tuesday, 10/21/03 15:13:29 EDT |
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Yup tht is probably the same crud... And just like never-seize a tiny amount would go a LOOOOONG way... trust me.... |
| Ralph - Tuesday, 10/21/03 16:14:23 EDT |
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Hi All, Does anyone know if the flypresses Kayne is selling are available in Canada? If so any idea who is dealing in them? |
| - Tony-C - Tuesday, 10/21/03 17:24:25 EDT |
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Flypresses: Tony, I do not know of a Canadian dealer but I'm sure the Kaynes would sell you one. Yeah. . . I know, the exchange rate, GST and shipping are killers. I called the Kaynes and they ship to Canada all the time. |
| - guru - Wednesday, 10/22/03 09:34:48 EDT |
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MolyKote is a brand of lubricants that cover a range of products, and is made by Dow Corning, Midland Mi. Molykote Gn assembly paste is the 70% moly paste. Molykote Anti-seize 1000 is the never seize product that i had such good results with. In the Molykote line is a spray on moly that does not harden, and one that does. Also a dry powder form. All the moly bearing products depend on the almost infinte compressive strenght of moly(about 350,000psi) and it's almost zero shear strenght. The crystals shear when relative motion of the lubricated parts occur, and when motion stops the crystals reform. The compression strenght keeps the parts from touching, and especially at elevated temp. touching of some materials insures galling. The Molykote anti-seize 1000 is a copper bearing anti-seize. I tested nuclear grade pure nickel compounds and others. All did have some effect at the lower temp's, but dropped out as the temp increased.The 316 bolting we used in 3/8"-16 and up cap screws were failing at a rate of about 40% during impact gun assembly, and dropped to about 2% with the right lube. We did have tyo learn that the bolts had developed the clamp strain at a much lower torque. And there in a nutshell is the results of about 2000 hours of research on galling, bolting and lubes. |
| ptree - Tuesday, 10/21/03 20:50:25 EDT |
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Why is it important to use the tools recomendedby the automobiles manufacturer? |
| george - Tuesday, 10/21/03 20:53:54 EDT |
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George, If you're a backyard "wrencher", I don't think it much matters if your socket sets and combo wrenches are Proto, Mac, SnapOn, Urrea, Craftsmen, or Northern. But there is a group of tools called "specialty tools" which only work for certain model cars or for a specific corporation's cars. |
| Frank Turley - Tuesday, 10/21/03 22:03:35 EDT |
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Got my copy of the Lund Viking Spit almost done, just a bit of filing on the "blade" section. It started out as a piece of 1" sq wrought iron and now is considerably smaller in crosssection but longer too. Boy that WI is *SOFT* at working temp and onery at any other temp! Speaking of WI I keep running into folk who can't find the stuff, which I find strange. Just tonight while picking up my daughter from her bus stop I was going through the alley and somone had thrown an old wagon tyre in the dumpster. 3" wide and 42" in diameter---about 10' of 1/2x3" wrought iron smack dab in the middle of the city...I fear that if I don't keep picking up the stuff folks will start tossing it in my windows! Thomas |
| Thomas P - Tuesday, 10/21/03 22:36:02 EDT |
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ptree,guru, and others, thank you for the information |
| - ironspider - Tuesday, 10/21/03 23:07:18 EDT |
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Dear Sir/Madam I have a problem with one of the Steam Forging Hammer that is utilized at my Workshop. It keeps on breaking the bolts and nuts ever since it was installed. Is it because of the foundation plan that was not planned properly, or what can it be? Is it possible to forward for me some points to be taken into consideration when designing the foundation. Please help!! Thank you Edward |
| Mhlebi - Wednesday, 10/22/03 01:54:16 EDT |
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Thomas P; I recall, many moons ago, at a SOF&A conference at Emmert's, a demonstrator stating that he didn't like to use wagon tire wrought iron due to the road grit that got ground into it over the years. I'm assuming that would make for contaminated welds. (He also intimated that he wasn't above making some pretty pricey belt buckles out of it, though). Have you heard anything regarding a contamination problem? |
| 3dogs - Wednesday, 10/22/03 02:12:54 EDT |
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Hello Good Guru and crew: My smithing friend, Studebaker Dave ( who is in the throes of rebuilding a Common Sense hammer) sent me this question and I am gracelessly passing the buck on to you. "Would you happen to have any info on tightening torques vs clamping force or preload for big bolts? I am having to substitute a home made pusher device for a hydrolic one to put this tractor I am working on back together. I, specificly, need to know: How much torque is required to develop 20 tons of clamping force in a a 1 1/2 inch ungraded steel bolt with 12 threads per inch." Steve: another thing that will cause flaking on a forged copper surface is hitting it too many times with too small a hammer, which stretches and hardens just the surface. Yet another possibility is that you have cold laps where a flap gets stretched across the surface as you hammer. And remember, if you are gonna hit yourself with a hammer, always do it in the same place. After a while, the nerves just sort of give up. |
| Pete F - Wednesday, 10/22/03 02:15:05 EDT |
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I have 2x 10mm thick x 5.60 meters long steel plate, I need to drill 5 16mm holes in each plate. I purchased a role forged blacksmith drill bit and used it with a Boash 700w Electric drill. The 1st hole cut great, however, the 2nd proved to be a bit more difficult! The drill bit blunted during the drilling of the 1st hole, (even though I kept cooling the bit) Would it be advisable to heat the plate at the point I need the hole cut and use a heavier duty drill bit? If you have any other advise I would really apreciate it. Yours Adam Bolton Fustrated amature!! |
| Adam Bolton - Wednesday, 10/22/03 03:55:56 EDT |
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Hah: The Guru's telekenetic powers have apparently wisked the answer straight to Dave's computer, as he now has his answer and the good Guru didn't even know his email address! This is the sort of service we receive for being members of Cybersmiths! Join now! |
| Pete F - Wednesday, 10/22/03 05:48:50 EDT |
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Mhlebi, The Machineries Manual has a nice section on foundations for steam hammers. try the library if you do not own this book. |
| ptree - Wednesday, 10/22/03 07:10:10 EDT |
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Thank you for your information guys and not saying out louse what a twit i am.. Yes it appears to be a machinist vice never mind i will use it until it breaks as thats all i have. thanks again looking after your President Bush for a while i see sunny day in Oz |
| banjo - Wednesday, 10/22/03 08:36:25 EDT |
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Hole Drilling: Adam, You have a number of problems. The first is that a 16mm (~5/8") hole is very large for a hand held drill in steel. The problem is feed pressure. You need a minimum of several hundred to a thousand pounds (100 to 500kg) of feed pressure to keep the drill cutting. When the drill does not cut it rubs, work hardens the surface of the metal, gets hot and dulls or burns up the drill. The second problem is the drill speed. Most hand held drills are designed for drilling wood or masonry. Both require much higher speeds than steel. If your drill operates at over 600 PRM it is way to fast. For hand drilling it needs to go only 300 RPM for that size drill in steel (about half the maximim periferal cutting velocity). SO, you did not have enough pressure (unless you are as big/over weight as I am and balanced all your weight on the drill) and you were probably turning the drill too fast. You had success with one hole because the material is fairly thin and you had a new bit but have dulled the drill bit considerably. It should be resharpened by someone with experiance sharpening drill bits before continuing. SOLUTIONS: The speed may be OK or your drill may be variable speed. I do not know. But if it is variable speed keep it running as slow as it will make chips. The pressure problem can be helped by pilot drilling (NOT step drilling). To pilot drill you want to drill a small hole about the thicknes of the web of the drill. This is sometimes too small to be practical so I use a 3/16" (~5mm) bit for everything except very large bits used in a drill press (drilling machine). Pilot drilling reduces the feed necessary pressure significantly. Why not "step drill" 5, 10, 12, 16mm? Step drilling takes very controled feed rates otherwise the drill trys to screw itself into the hole and breaks the outer edges of the bit (every time). You would think this is the way to hand drill but it takes machine control to prevent chipping off the corners. Do NOT step drill. LAST: Cutting oil or lubricant helps cool and lubricate the bit. You can use special cutting oils OR whatever is at hand. Plain lubricating (engine) oil works, WD-40 works, and I have used a mixture of 50/50 SAE-20 engine oil and kerosene. Note that this is flamable. SO, lubricate, drill a pilot hole, keep the speed down and the feed pressure up and you should be able to drill these holes. |
| - guru - Wednesday, 10/22/03 10:14:39 EDT |
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Drilling Speeds: The general rule of thumb (in English Units) for HSS (High Speed Steel) cutting tools in steel is a limit of 90 to 120 feet per minute (depending on the alloy being cut). To calulate this use the diameter of the cutter, multiply by PI, then take the max cutting speed in common units and divide by the calculated circumference. Small bits can be used a considerably higher speeds than large bits. This puts definite limits on the capacity of many machines and hand tools. But the above speed limit is for machining. I've found that unless you have machine controlled feed rates (how fast the bit is fed into the metal in distance per rotation) you need to run considerably slower when drilling. I use one half when using a drill press and lower when hand drilling. Most other (softer) metals can be drilled at higher speeds and hard materials at slower. Old carbon steel bits must be used at much lower speeds than HSS (thus the old hand crank drill speeds). The best grades of cobalt HSS can be run faster than common HSS and all can be run faster lubricated than dry. One thing to know is that different processes have different limits. Band saws have time to cool and have MANY |