| WELCOME to the anvilfire Guru's Den - V. 3.0 |
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THIS is a forum for questions and answers about blacksmithing and general metalworking. Ask the Guru any reasonable question and he or one of his helpers will answer your question, find someone that can, OR research the question for you. This is an archive of posts from November 17 - 23, 2002 on the Guru's Den |
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Bridge Trusses Nalani, Almost all bridge trusses are made of steel. In the past they were made of wrought iron but that is no longer made in bridge size quantities. Prior to that wood trusses were used. The first all metal bridge was made in England of cast iron but I do not think it was a truss. Modern bridges rust. Paint is used to prevent rust. It is renewed often. If you have ever been on the golden gate bridge in San Fransisco, CA you will have seen painting crews. They never stop painting. They sandblast off the old paint and apply new. When they get to the end they go back and start all over again. . . There is a steel called CorTEN that is rust resistant. It rusts until it has an even coating and then suposedly stops. However, every and all components must be CorTEN steel. The problem is where is come in contact with other substances (the pilings, the road bed). AND it creates rust stains on other things near it. The result is that many highway bridges and outdoor sculptures made of CorTEN are now being painted. Stainless steel does not rust but it is ten times as expensive as plain carbon steel and labor to make anything of it is also higher (about 3x). It is also not as good a structural material as plain carbon steel so more is required. . . Good exterior rust protection is a multi-coat process. See my article on Corrosion and its Prevention on our 21st Century page. In truss design the mathematics are what is important. But that must be based on good logic and the capability to visualize complicated structures. |
| - guru - Saturday, 11/16/02 23:14:10 GMT |
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Zaida, Your email bounced. Contact me direct. Gerg, See our Getting Started article. The size of your hand hammer is more critical than anvil size. Fuel costs are largely a matter of transportation costs. You can easily spend more on shipping than on the fuel. Kayne and Son has fair prices. The amount you need depends on how long you work at the forge every day and how many days a week. . . Order a 50 pound bag of good coal to play with. Then you will have an idea about what GOOD coal is and how much you need. Stainless: Tracy, Heat treating stainless requires accurate temperature control and is generaly based on time held at temperature and is a different process than carbon steels. There are huge differences in alloys and unless you know what you have it will be very difficult. Holster Springs: Mike, there are a couple ways to make springs. One is to start with spring steel, shape it and heat treat it (see our Heat Treating FAQ). The other is to purchase stainless spring wire. This is a prehardened alloy steel designed to be bent into shape and used as-is. Generaly it is limited to round wire. It is TOUGH to bend but it avoids the heat treating. McMaster-Carr sells spring steel music wire, flat spring steel AND stainless spring steel on-line. |
| - guru - Saturday, 11/16/02 23:29:16 GMT |
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i am working on a chain mail hauberk and have use some thick 12gauge fencing wire so i know it wont rust i have all the links cut and was wondering if you had any advice on making it because this is my first one and dont want to screw up. |
| Bryan - Sunday, 11/17/02 01:02:21 GMT |
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Bryan, The cut ends of the galvanized wire are going to rust. There are numerous web-sites that cover nothing but mail. Try the web-ring on our Armoury page. |
| - guru - Sunday, 11/17/02 01:38:38 GMT |
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Thanks guru! Anvilfire is an amazingly rich wealth of knowledge, I'm so glad I stumbled upon it. I would really be groping in the dark without this place. |
| Gerg - Sunday, 11/17/02 02:52:20 GMT |
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First Iron Bridge The Guru is correct. The first iron bridge was constructed at Coalbrookdale in England in 1779. It crosses the Severn River and it is still in service. The ribs and plates were made of cast iron, from Abraham Darby's foundry nearby. Heavy trucks are no longer allowed to use the bridge. The bridge is a single arch bridge, and the joinery is of the type traditionally used by woodworkers. The first bridge to use wrought iron was constructed, in 1826, by Thomas Telford. The bridge had wrought iron chains. It spanned the Menai strait connecting Wales and Anglesey. I presume that it was a suspension bridge. Regards from the G. W. N. (Montreal sector), where it's supposed to snow heavily tomorrow. SLAG. |
| slag - Sunday, 11/17/02 04:55:09 GMT |
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Yeah Caleb !!!! Guru and Nalani: Another problem with corten in marine environments is that it continues to rust wherever water pools and wherever there is a mechanical attachment where 2 layers touch or overlap. Folks who trusted the hype are much less than pleased...the other thing is the awful baby-poop orange color it turns. Gimmie honest rust and oversized steel most anytime...clank |
| - Pete F - Sunday, 11/17/02 06:59:43 GMT |
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Vicopper, Pete and all, I think that joining CSI was my only logical choice. I personly know(face to face) about ten local blacksmiths and I acquire on average, 3 books per week(mostly used) that are composed of history, experience and technical data on various subjects ranging from steam producers to stone walls. Yet, with all of this physical knowledge at my fingertips I still find myself coming back here almost every day, just to make sure I am not missing out on any of the very practical, wide ranging and often rare information shared here. Don't forget the ambiguous I-FORGE demos! They are substantial in their own right! If one were to add up all of the combined referance data, knowledge and wisdom that is on tap here at AnvilFire via the various permanent(yet continualy updated) pages and the many minds that abide amoungst us and provide invaluable advice, I am sure it would surpass the composition of many a university's library and staff. I think that one dollar a week is not asking very much at all to maintain such a unique and substantial resource! I am curious as to the estimation of how many blacksmiths have been born from this site or at least pushed out of the nest? With over 2,000,000 visits it is most assuredly a substantial amount! Being an advocate of an institution such as this, that is spreading the word about an art/craft in which the old Master Blacksmith's kept trade secrets which they would only pass to their own blood or sometimes their apprentices is liberating in a way. |
| Caleb Ramsby - Sunday, 11/17/02 07:53:19 GMT |
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zaida.monnich Pewter figures moulds can be bought from these suppliers they can be custumized after casting them www.miniaturemolds.com www.dutkins.com/index.cfm www.princeaugust.ie The best of these is Prince August but they are located in Ireland and shipping can take forever. The other two are in the US and shipping is yherefore much easier. they also sell kits that get someone new to casting making figures within an hour or two. I can and have made custom molds and figures but unless you are looking for several hundred figures the price will give you pause. Most gamers take standard figures and customise them afterwards. There are several sites on the web that show how to do this. For figures that are going to be used and handeled for gameplay be sure to use a lead free pewter, or for a cheaper sorce of mould metal you can use the lead free solder put out by Kester it has a low melting point (for extra mould life) and has the advantade of being available at any good hardware or plumbing store. e-mial me if you have any further questions I will be happy to help Mark |
| Mark P - Sunday, 11/17/02 14:27:37 GMT |
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got a ? I bought a lg 25 new model in great shape but no motor. how much is it worth. I want to know if i payed to much. thank you |
| steelwelding - Sunday, 11/17/02 18:55:03 GMT |
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Caleb, I can't answer for how many smiths have been "born" at this site. But I can say that in the last five years, I've sent at least 25 smiths here for answers to questions that I've been asked either in person or in email. At least five of them are now members of CSI because they felt the same way as you do. I just finished answering a question for a "new" smith in California. He found me via a search for blacksmith at one of the search engines. I did answer his question, but I also encouraged him to check out this site closely. |
| Paw Paw - Sunday, 11/17/02 19:10:46 GMT |
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I am an 18 year old senior that over the past few years I have become very interested in blacksmithing especially in sword making. I have a few questions about this buisness and I was wondering if you could help me out with these questions 1.can you make a good living by doing this? 2.would going to an art school to study metals in an addition to welding help? or if there is any thing else please e-mail me thank you |
| Alex - Sunday, 11/17/02 19:29:29 GMT |
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Harbor Freight Anvils> Well, after reading about the 110 pound cast steel anvil in an anvilfire article, I visited the harbor freight website. I did a search for "steel anvils" and got three listings, one of which was a 55 pound carbon steel anvil. From the photo, it looks like its a better finish than the 110 pound model. But thats not much to go on. Has anyone tried the 55 pound model, and was it any good? Thanks. |
| - taylor - Sunday, 11/17/02 20:17:40 GMT |
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Little Giant Hammer: Steelwelding, "Great shape" can mean a lot of things. The newest of these machines is 40 years old and the average is 80. 25 pound Little Giants are one of the most abused machines as a group as I have ever seen. Guides and pins and bearings wear, springs get tired, dies get battered or rusted into place, do-it-your selfers make modifications. . . The price range for these machines is $400 to $2800 US. There are several early and late types as well as one heavy duty model 25# hammer that is worth more than the others IF you know the model. Some have anvil blocks and others do not. Some were designed to use a motor and others off a line shaft. Those designed for use with a line shaft take considerable work to install a motor (thus reducing the price if there is none). Lots of folks think the late models are better but they are NOT. The late guide system wears curved making it impossible to adjust and expensive to repair. . SO, there are too many variables to say without inspecting the hammer. |
| - guru - Sunday, 11/17/02 21:26:10 GMT |
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Taylor, I have not seen the 55 lb cast steel anvil in person but as I recall, it sells for about the same price as the 110 Lb Russian anvil. The 110 Lb is not a bad anvil for $.79 pr lb. If this is your first anvil, bigger is better, believe me. The face of the Russian anvil is a bit soft but still very servicable. Check out the review of the Russian anvil in the Anvilfire news section. |
| Quenchcrack - Sunday, 11/17/02 21:38:14 GMT |
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Sword Making: Alex, the TOP people, those with higher degrees in engineering or metallurgy as well as having studied the applicable art and history and who produce the very best work can make a fair living. But of those most struggle. Those that are lucky enough to find work in movie industry OR produce museum quality collectors pieces AND develop a well known reputation can make a living at sword making. It is not easy and there is a LOT of competition at every level. Imports currently dominate the US market and they range from cheap slave labor junk to masterpiece art works from Eastern Europe where the economy is still in terrible condition. |
| - guru - Sunday, 11/17/02 21:40:06 GMT |
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55 Lb Harbor Freight Anvil: We happen to have that anvil up at our forge. QC is right, it costs the same as the 110 Russian (which makes me wish I'd known that before I bought the 55lber..) but it's a sturdy little anvil if you mount it to something HEAVY. Ours isn't presently mounted (it's just temporary until we get our big anvil placed) and it bounces alllll over the place. The hardee hole is also a bit far back on the face of the anvil for my taste.. making the anvil bounce around even MORE when you're using the hardee. Once the bigun' is in place, I plan to build a good sturdy base for the 55lber and bolt it down tight. I'll probably take a sander to the face too.. smooth out some of my errant hammer marks (from working the metal too cold on an anvil too soft and light). Chances are good we'll be buying one of those 110lbers soon too. (Can never have too many anvils. ) Still trying to find a blower to replace the burned up Vaccuum. Can't seem to get my hands on a car heater blower.. might have to get desperate and use a hair drier agian! Robert "Asgard" HPL steele |
| - Robert "Asgard" - Sunday, 11/17/02 21:52:36 GMT |
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where can I learn to become a blacksmith? |
| Bill - Sunday, 11/17/02 21:53:50 GMT |
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Hello Guys, Sorry i have not been in touch, being at school keeps me pretty busy. I am studying Arboriculture in Maine. In september and october i went to a blacksmiths roundup and then volunteered as a blacksmiths apprentice for living history days at the maine forest and logging museum. I am slowly returning to my forge for some tool needs. I would like to make a peavey and a pulphook. I would like some assistance on design and fabrication, preferably without arc welding, but i can weld if need be, im just more interested in traditional techniques. The hinge point and the cone/point fabrication is challenging my mind. Also the fabrication of the pulphook handle and attachement to the hook itself. Maybe someone would like to do a demonstration, or next fall when i figure out this stuff i could do one. Thanks for your help, hope all is well. |
| Robert Hogg(SmithinScout) - Sunday, 11/17/02 22:11:28 GMT |
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in your gettin started in blacksmithing you said dont start with a hammer too big if your slight build. I'm 6'2 343lbs is it ok for me to get the 3lb. hammer? |
| Bill - Sunday, 11/17/02 22:36:38 GMT |
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Bill, Carl Carlson, Sr., was about your size and was the senior blacksmith for making assembly line equipment at International Harvester, south of Chicago. Occasionally, he would wield a 16 pound hand sledge. Your body will tell you what you can handle. I use a 3 pound cross peen for most of my work, which is of the hardware variety, and I don't weigh 200 pounds.....yet. |
| Frank Turley - Sunday, 11/17/02 23:07:40 GMT |
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Guru, Two questions: I have a buffalo Forge Co. post drill that has a chuck on it that is marked: "KO Lee Company, Aberdeen So Dak, A470". I'm wondering what the best way is to make this drill work with regular drill bits. The chuck turns easy, I think it would work fine with the right drills. I have a Lufkin metal folding ruler #1306D. The markings on one side of this are inches, the other side look like inches at first glance, but each inch is longer than an inch!(actually about 1 3/16"). The side with the "too long inches" is marked "100ths". Have you heard of such a scale? I didn't notice this at first until I thought I was all messed up when some measurments kept coming out different. Doug |
| AZDoug - Sunday, 11/17/02 23:53:31 GMT |
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I am after the best deal for 500Kg blacksmith coke, area around Melbourne/Victoria |
| Alfred - Monday, 11/18/02 00:27:40 GMT |
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55 Lb anvil - Just checked www.harborfreight.com and found that their 110 pounder is 30 dollars more than the 55 lber. Still a great bargian though. Robert "Asgard" Correcting his error. |
| - Robert "Asgard" - Monday, 11/18/02 01:10:57 GMT |
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Bill, Take a look at the IForge demo #6 Hammer Control. Control is VERY important and there are many factors that affect it. I am 6', 215# and can wield a 10# hand sledge but not for very long or very accuratly, once I used a 14# hand sledge for a few heats just to see what would happen(it wasn't pretty). The perfect weight for me is about 4 1/2# to 5# but when I am working small stock I use a proportionaly sized hammer, down to 2#. Remember that force is equal to the mass times the velocity squared. So the FASTER you can swing a hammer the more force you can exert and usualy the more accurate the blows. The tendons in ones forearm can sustain severe damage by jumping into Blacksmithing with too heavy of a hammer, one must progress in stages, start at 2# or for your size 3# shouldn't be that too far up the scale and work up. Before you start smiting hot iron I would suggest practicing on a piece of 2X4 which you should hold in your hand(not the end you strike;). Back up the 2X4 with something solid like a tall stump placed at the correct height for YOU. As the IForge demo states this is at the bottem of your fist when standing in a natural position. You can use the indentations in the wood to tell how strong the blows are from various sized hammers. Remember to take BREAKS about every half a minute to two minutes of continous pounding. This is mandatory, because you would have to stop to heat the iron any ways, take this time to inspect your indentations and think about HOW you are swinging the hammer. Practicing on the 2X4 will show you what happens when fatiege sets in and will give you a whole lot of confidence in your aim. As with anything, warming up and streching are very usefull. I know a few blacksmiths that never use a hammer over 2# and still get plenty of work done. It is the technique that realy matters NOT the strength(although it helps). |
| Caleb Ramsby - Monday, 11/18/02 01:18:14 GMT |
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Does www.harborfreight.com ship outside the US? |
| Gerg - Monday, 11/18/02 02:05:22 GMT |
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Gerg, I'm sure they will tell you if you ask. |
| - guru - Monday, 11/18/02 02:19:22 GMT |
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Lance Burch, My email response to your last re: tie wire, keeps bouncing. Hotmail won't accept it for some reason. |
| Paw Paw - Monday, 11/18/02 02:19:52 GMT |
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Chucks and Scales: Doug, you have not said what is unusual about the chuck. If it is a standard style chuck it fits whatever round bit is within its range. Many do not start at zero. There were also many types of square tapered shank chucks that drill bits are no longer made for. I have a couple 1/16" twist drill bits that have huge 5/8" square tapered shanks. I've never seen a chuck for them but I am sure they were made in the 1900's. My best guess about your Lufkin rule is that if you look at the 12" mark that opposite it will be the 10 for tenths of a foot. The divisions between each number mark is probably 1/10 of the distance or 1/100ths of a foot. These are used in some contruction and in surveying. There are many odd scales made. There are engineering graphing scales that divide an inch into 20ths and 40ths. There are shrink rules for castings where a foot is 1/8", 3/16" or 1/4" longer than a standard foot. When patterns are made via the shrink rule the casting should come out to the acutal dimension. Shrink rules are usualy marked by the amount of shrink per foot AND the material to be cast. PI tapes are used to measure diameter by placing the tape around the part and directly reading the diameter. Each bas unit = 3.1416. . inches (or mm or cm if metric). Slide rules that were 10" were made so that the evenly divided L scale was exactly 10" and could be used as a measuring device. On my iForge demo on the framing square we discussed the fact that the standard carpenter's square has scales divided in 1/8ths, 1/10ths and 1/12ths and their multiples and subdivisions. The 1/12ths scale can really fool you but is also handy. It has even markings for 1/3rds and 1/6ths and if you are measuring something divided in thirds it will give you even markings so you are not guessing at decimal equivalents of odd fractions on a scale that doesn't have odd divisions. And a truely wonderful excersize is working with a dividing head where one turn = 1/40th (9°). So ten turns = 1/4, eight = 1/5. The dividing head input plate is divided up so that almost any concievable division of a circle can be made. Need a 213 tooth gear? Need to divide a hand wheel scale into 1/10ths or even 1/12ths? A didiving head can usualy do it. |
| - guru - Monday, 11/18/02 02:53:43 GMT |
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When sharpening HSS and it gets blue, have you softened the metal and need to carefully grid it back until bluing is gone? I have recently heard that does not softent the metal. Thanks, Don |
| Don Pencil - Monday, 11/18/02 02:53:53 GMT |
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Hammer Size: Bill, Frank Turley is a full time smith and probably can use that 3 pounder all day. I used to use a 3 pounder when I worked full time but now I prefer about a 2 pounder and due to too many hours at the PC I can only wield it for a short time. It takes me a couple hours a day at the forge to build up to where I can use a hammer all day. Starting with too big a hammer is a good way to hurt yourself. Start small. One of the most popular hammers is an 800 gram (1.76 pound) hammer. If you hand hurts or you tire quickly then you need to use smaller. Then work up as your muscle tone and control develope. CONTROL is more important than how hard you hit. The power comes from practice and control. |
| - guru - Monday, 11/18/02 03:05:10 GMT |
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High Speed Steel HSS Don, Good HSS is designed to operate at a red heat at the cutting edge. However, it will not hold up long at that temperature. When you discolor metal while grinding the point at which you are grinding may be getting a lot hotter than the color surrounding it suggests. Normaly you have not hurt the temper of HSS steel but it is not good practice. Overheating can also cause cracking and other problems. The blue (or purple or yellow) is only on the surface so removing it is no judge of repairing a tool that has been overheated. |
| - guru - Monday, 11/18/02 03:14:09 GMT |
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AZDOUG: Sounds like your rule has large marks for 1/10 ft on the "back". Small marks would be 1/100 ft. Harbor Frieght: I used a China 55 lb anvil for the first time at a Salt Fork Craftsmen meeting last Saturday. It was surprisingly good for not being tied down, but the horn would take major grinding if one wished to approximate a circular cross section at any point. Working with hot iron the top held up well for the limited use, only denting with a hammer miss. Bridges: An early 20th century bridge near me is slated for demolition. It has several 1x1 inch tension bars with forge welded eyes on each end. What is the probablilty these are wrought iron? Since this is Oklahoma, opened in 1890, statehood 1907, the bridge is probably no older than 1910 but is all riveted construction of angle iron and strap composite beams with no original field welding. It only spans about 75 ft but has several of the tension bars with welded eyes. A much larger bridge of the same vintage was demolished a couple of years ago but I was out of town and didn't have a chance to acquire any of the materials. |
| Andy Martin - Monday, 11/18/02 03:16:55 GMT |
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Hammer Size: I cannot more wholeheartedly agree with the guru on this. When I was younger and stupider:-) My favorite hammer was a 6# hand sledge, I was pretty good with it and used it for everything, except the final tweaking of a blade. I am to the point now that I hate most hammers over 3#. It doesn't matter how big and how strong you are:-) You need to learn to use the right hammer the right way. Most people can push themselves hard enough to damage themselves and strong people are really prone to this, I have pushed myself to failure in the gym and at the anvil a number of times, it is stupid, don't do it. When you hurt yourself you increase the likelyhood of causing yourself chronic problems, especially from repetive stress injuries. You are probably big enough and strong enough, and determined enough to weild a big hammer, and even have some fair success with it, but it is much better to be patient and safe and start with a small good quaility hammer with a handle that fits you. And then take the time to learn how to swing it well, after you can work as long as you like with a smaller hammer you can start to use a heavier hammer when you need it and use it well. I am a full time farrier and blacksmith and I am WAY too young to feel this old. Take the time to learn to do it right, even if your body won't thank you, it might complain less later on:-) |
| Fionnbharr - Monday, 11/18/02 03:45:52 GMT |
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Bride Iron: Get it weither it is or not:-) I love 1" square very useful size. Get it spark test it on a grinder and then get it a dull red in your forge and then thump it real good:-) If it fractures and splits kinda like wood it is wrought. Have fun and send me some;-) Remember wrought is cold short and you HAVE to work it hot. Don't hit it cold, cause it will split and fracture:-) It will also sometimes split past where you want it to when you are slitting it, so drilling pilot holes for your slits can save you some headaches. It loves to forgeweild though so enjoy... |
| Fionnbharr - Monday, 11/18/02 03:56:19 GMT |
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Old Bridge Iron Andy, Wrought iron was made by a production process for making corrosion resistant iron for bridges and such up into the 1930's. This was the prefered material by some engineers and bridge builders. The forge welded tension rods are very probably wrought iron (99.9%) and there is a good chance that the rest of the bridge is too except for modern repairs. Go take a CLOSE look anywhere there has been heavy corrosion. It usualy shows the grain of the wrought iron. ASK the highway department engineer. If the entire bridge is wrought it NEEDS to be saved for the material. Otherwise it will go the scrap at 1 cent a pound and get turned into a Toyota. . . |
| - guru - Monday, 11/18/02 04:01:06 GMT |
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BEWARE of ANOTHER 55# ANVIL SHAPED OBJECT! I was at the flea market the other day and came across another chinese cast ASO that superficially resembled the Russian version. This had "55 lb" cast in its side. The face actually still had casting pits in it! This despite some heavy (and crude) grinding. The hardy hole (centered in the "boat tail" shaped heel) still had casting sand inclusions and flash at the bottom, so that it was almost closed. It had a semi-conical horn and no table. Altogether the WORST A.S.O. I've ever seen. I'm sure no one here would be fooled, but some first time enthusiast might, somehow, mistake it or one that wasn't near so aweful, as useful. It was bad even by my low standards. Packing for California Tuesday... g'night |
| Bruce Blackistone (Atli) - Monday, 11/18/02 04:21:25 GMT |
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Andy; Before I knew about such stuff, a whole wrought iron RR bridge was scrapped put about an hours drive from here..been kicking myself ever since. |
| - Pete F - Monday, 11/18/02 06:38:14 GMT |
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Hi, I am out in the southwestern part of the US. I am looking for information on how to fabraciate a hand held bellows for a fireplace,a book or well-drawn plans, help please... |
| james perry - Monday, 11/18/02 11:52:18 GMT |
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wrought iron: Pete me too - They took down an old bridge near me about 12 yrs ago and I didnt know enough to take advantage. Now I find myself paying to have WI shipped to me from the East Coast. Hammer wt. Its important to realize that muscles grow much faster then tendons. Its one thing to get strong enough to swing a 3# hammer, its another for the tendons to catch up to where they can safely take the strain. And I can tell you that once you get tedonitis in your forearm it takes a long time to heal up |
| adam - Monday, 11/18/02 15:13:39 GMT |
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Hello I'm new at this game and don't type fast but here goes. I am searching for an anvil holddown device to help me work alone. Often cutting plates is a catch and dodge game,any ideas? |
| Stan Tilton - Monday, 11/18/02 15:15:40 GMT |
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Any Blacksmiths in the Way? I'll be in Inyokern, California (between the Mojave dessert and Sequoia National Forest) for part of Tuesday and Wednesday, then bashing back to LA to drop off one of our people and up to Sequoia National Park for a meeting on Thursday. Time may be real tight, but if I'm going to be tripping over any of you, please let me know. I'll have my laptop to keep track of my office e-mail (bruceunderscoreblackistoneatnpsdotgov). I've actually managed to meet some of you fine folks in my travels, but missed catching up with others due to work-load and changes. Hope to try, anyway. Let me know if you're on the/in the way. (I'm getting up at 02:00 tomorrow to make the earliest flight to LAX, so I'm in for an early bedtime tonight.) Sunny and cool on the banks of the Potomac. Visit Sequoia and Kings Canyon National Parks: www.nps.gov/seki/ Go viking: www.wam.umd.edu/~eowyn/Longship/ |
| Bruce Blackistone (Atli) - Monday, 11/18/02 15:16:04 GMT |
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Hold Downs: Stan, we have several on the iForge page. See demo #125 "Hold Downs" We have also had other designs sent to us. But most are rather complicated lever arrangements attached to the anvil stand. You can find this type design in the Art of Blacksmithing and other books. But I much prefer the simpler designs shown in our iForge demo. |
| - guru - Monday, 11/18/02 15:40:25 GMT |
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In reading an old book on blacksmithing I came across the following. Is this possible or a bit of reprinted Lore? Is there a modern comparison? Thanks! TO MAKE STEEL AND IRON AS WHITE AS SILVER Take 1 pound of ashes from white ash bark, dissolve in soft water. Heat your iron red, and cool in this solution, and the iron will turn white as silver. |
| Ramiel - Monday, 11/18/02 17:04:54 GMT |
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I have seen those Chinese steel ASO's being sold as "reproductions". I was told that they are hot (no pun intended) decorator items. For those of you who feel obligated to decorate your shop, here is the perfect accessory. Now if I could just find a cast iron hammer to go with it............ |
| - Quenchcrack - Monday, 11/18/02 17:56:46 GMT |
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I'll cast another vote for smaller hammers. My first was a three-pound cross peen. Found it a little hard to control, but think part of that may have been a relatively thick handle - I have small hands. Now I have two favorites: an anonymous two-pound cross peen and the 800-g "Czech hammer" from OCP. I've observed that metal moves faster with the two smaller hammers than it does with the three-pounder, even when I'm fresh. And I can swing the smaller hammers for hours without feeling run down. I do find myself using three- and even four-pound hammers for driving chisels and punches, though. I mentioned this observation to my father, who taught machine shop and welding for decades. He agreed, and said that he'd seen so many students insist on using the biggest hammer they could find, even though they couldn't swing it very long or very accurately. There were some pretty big guys in his classes, too. Steve |
| SteveA - Monday, 11/18/02 18:55:29 GMT |
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AZDoug: those markings sound to me like decimal inches (one foot divided in 10 instead of 12). |
| - OErjan - Monday, 11/18/02 18:55:55 GMT |
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QC, I had several cast iron hammers given to me when I was very young in "toy" tool kits. First time you try to drive a real nail the face end of the head breaks off. . I learned VERY young about CI. Ramiel, You can create lye from wood ash and that will disolve rust and scale from steel. I think the heating step may have been a waste but then hot lye works faster. The results will be clean "bright" steel but the color will be normal steel grey. Sounds like a bit of poorly reproduced misinformation. |
| - guru - Monday, 11/18/02 18:57:47 GMT |
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Comparing Hammers: IF you can swing a small hammer fast enough it will hit harder than a large hammer. Many smiths prefer quick and fast but others like slow and heavy. IF one hammer has more curve to the face (up to a point) than another it will move steel faster with less effort. If the face of the hammer is smaller it will SEEM like it does more to the steel than a larger hammer applied with the same force. Unless you look quite close at several hammers that appear similar you may not notice the subtle differences in the face that move steel faster. |
| - guru - Monday, 11/18/02 19:03:44 GMT |
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re sword making: even though the europe/asian market is cheaper and only the best can get a job for movie production is it still possable to make a good living at say owning a store that sells swords and the such and selling items at medevil conventions or other events? |
| Alex - Monday, 11/18/02 19:12:49 GMT |
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i'VE JUST RECIEVED A LITTLE GIANT,I THINK IT'S A 100.I need an expanded diagram of the flyweel an clutch mechanism,also what and where can I get to replace the clutch pads which I presume are aspestos?Does anyone have an 3hp motor for it,I'm on the central coast of Oregon,help and many thanks. |
| Don - Monday, 11/18/02 19:52:34 GMT |
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Sandblaster vs Tumbler Guru! I inquired about tumblers before but now I am wondering if a sanblaster wouldn't be better. I have no experience with sanblasters. I make mostly small items such as hooks, candleholders, towel rods, etc... I presently wire brush and find it too time consuming and dangerous. I was thinking of cabinet sandblasters as a solution but I don't know if it's good enough to remove some of that stubborn scale. Also, I don't really know what type of blasting abrasive is better and how much cleaning can I expect from one bag of abrasive??? Also, a good sanblaster clean scale fast??? Yours Truly Louis |
| Louis - Monday, 11/18/02 20:25:46 GMT |
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Smaller hammers: Since force is proportional to mass * velocity ^2, it sounds like it would be advantageous to have a comparatively long handle on a light hammer. I'm getting ready to re-handle a small cross-peen (probably a pound and a half) would it make sense to take a handle made for a framing hammer (14-18"?) and re-carve the eye end to fit the oval eye of the cross-peen. Or should I just use a ball-peen type handle? Curiosity: I have a small old square-face cross-peen hammer head with a VERY small eye - a pound + hammer with a tiny eye that would look more sensible on a six ounce ball-peen. . . any notion what the maker had in mind? A handle tapered down that small would be real whippy and minimize the shock back to your hand but I suspect I'd need to make 'em by the dozen and get real efficient at changing 'em as they broke. . . Or should I just drift out the eye to a more normal size? |
| John Lowther - Monday, 11/18/02 20:37:47 GMT |
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Comparing Hammers, In my above comments about hammers I said that I can use a 10# hammer, I should have added that I almost never use it anymore(at least not one handed). The head size is over 2" dia. and it is flat, this combined with the slow speed that it is swung at with one hand meens that it doesn't move very much metal and thus impractical. With a 4# hammer I can move more metal than the 10# and the strikes are much more accurate and cause less fatigue and stress. When I first started I used a 3# hammer BUT at the time I was using ax's a LOT, both spliting and choping down trees. So I was preconditioned for blacksmithing. I am also amidexterous(I taught my self to be) so every few heats I switch the hammer hand, this helps to prevent fatigue greatly. After being away from the forge for a while it is ASTOUNDING how heavy a 2# much less 3# hammer gets after a few hours. It is control that matters though NOT power, this means lots of practice. I like to say "Practice makes better, nobody's perfect.". One thing I would like to add is that the control of the stock is just as important as the control of the hammer. When apprentices abounded the Master Smith would hold the stock and direct the striker's blow not only by taping the stock but by moving it practicaly constantly. It doesn't take long to figure out that a minute movement of the stock drastically changes the effect that the blow has on the metal. |
| Caleb Ramsby - Monday, 11/18/02 20:42:08 GMT |
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Sandblasting I just realized that my previous questions might have been a little ambiguous. My questions are: #1- Does a sandblaster clean scale off well and fast? #2- Does it use up alot of abrasive material? Thank You Louis |
| Louis - Monday, 11/18/02 22:07:31 GMT |
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Louis. A few years ago I aquired a 48" bead blast cabinet with dust collector. I honestly don't know how I lived this long without one. it can be used with different blast medium, from coarse ground glass to walnut shells and so goes from very agressive to fine cleaning. I use mine mostly with medium glass beads that will quickly remove moderate scale and leaves a fine finish that takes paint well. The blast medium is cheap and goes a long way since it is constantly recovered and reused untill it gets too fine to cut. It also works real well to remove galvanizing before welding, paint, rust, dirt, etc, etc. |
| bbeck - Monday, 11/18/02 22:29:58 GMT |
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Harbor Freight Anvils> The following are the details for the "steel anvils" from harbor freight that most would be interested in. Just about everything else is too small or cast iron junk. The 110pound is Russian made. The 55pound looks to be made in India. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- 55 LB. CARBON STEEL ANVIL Heat treated and tempered for hardness, ductility and high resilience. Softer inner-body absorbs impact. * 1 x 1 square hole * Overall: 5-3/4W x 15L x 7-1/2H ITEM 42028-0VGA $69.99 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- 110 LB. CAST STEEL ANVIL Designed to last a lifetime. Gives the support and surface area for heavy duty jobs. * Striking surface: 12.6L x 4W * Base: 11L x 7.4W * Hardie hole: 1.15 square * Pritchel hole: 0.375 diameter ITEM 46707-0VGA $99.99 |
| - taylor - Monday, 11/18/02 22:36:48 GMT |
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100 lb. Little Giant: Don, These came in at least 2 different models and maybe three with different clutches. The clutch linings have been leather, cotton and wood. There may have been an asbestoes composite but would no longer be available or neded. Little giant clutches run wet with oil in order to slip and control the speed. If it is a 100 is should be cast into the crank wheel on the front. If you are not sure see our specs sheet on our Power hammer Page. These are dimensions for LATE Little Giants which are about 4" shorter than the early models. There are also two pages with photos of a 1918 100# Little Giant. There is a book on Little Giants by Kern that has some parts information but the original LG parts information was not very good and there are no assembly drawings. The Kern book is mostly historical data and some dubious how-to repair advise. See our Power hammer Page manufacturers listing for parts or service. |
| - guru - Monday, 11/18/02 22:55:51 GMT |
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louis. Sandblasting is a great process to have in ones shop. It is not like wire brushing though. Media blasting is much more agressive, alot quicker, and safer as long as you don't use sand. Sand, silica will KILL you. I use sand outside, blast media inside in my cabinet. There are different kinds to choose from. You will also work out other ways to finish the blasted pieces. At first you will be alittle shocked as to how to handle the super clean metal. Only thing wrong w/my cabinet is that its too small. |
| - Pete-Raven - Monday, 11/18/02 22:57:16 GMT |
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Cheap Anvils Until someone has verified the material and constuction DO NOT take the sellers word for it. The vast majority of these imports are being misrepresented as something they ARE NOT. Sellers that have been notified that they are misrepresenting those items continue to do so. The HF 110# Russian is either not as high of carbon as a good anvil should be OR not hardened as hard as it should be. Probably the former. Any softer and it would be an ASO. |
| - guru - Monday, 11/18/02 23:09:24 GMT |
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Sales at Fairs: Alex, very few people make a good living this way. Most use it as a supplement or do local shows for advertising. These are the places where there is head to head competition selling work made by others. Most folks doing this are doing it part time as a second or retirement occupation and often do not need to make a significant profit. Some do it at a loss which makes it difficult to compete if you must make a living at it. Ocassionaly merchants that work shows full time can make a living at it but it means traveling full time, living on the cheap and constantly hustling from one place to another. Being on the road full time means that they do not make the goods they sell. Often they have to lie to show organizers about the source of their products in order to gain entry to shows where only items made by the seller are to be sold. . . THIS often creates problems. It is a hard life. There are only a few major "Ren Faires" in the country where significant sales are made. Many of these have permanent stalls rented to the same craftspeople over a long period of time. IF you are lucky enough to live close to one of these and are able to get a booth at one then sales can be good. But these are far and few between. I spent years working the "crafts shows". I never actually made a profit at it. It was fun and I enjoyed doing it. But there was no money in it. |
| - guru - Monday, 11/18/02 23:52:16 GMT |
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Grit Blasting vs. Tumbling vs. Wire Brush: All these methods have their advantages and disadvantages. Tumblers and vibratory finishers have the advantage that a bunch of parts can be tossed in the bin and you can walk away. It it takes an hour or ten it doesn't matter because YOU are not standing there doing the work. Grit blasting is both time and energy expensive. But it will do things that other methods will not. Grit can leave a sharp toothed clean surface that paint with adhear to better than anything. It will remove hard scale in places that other methods cannot reach. But you have to stand or sit there and manipulate the parts and the gun and it IS very slow. Grit blasted steel needs to be handled with clean oil and grease free gloves and painted immediately. It rusts VERY fast and the tooth holds oils that will keep paint from sticking unless very well degreased. There is also the problem of disposing of the used grit. It is always classified as hazardous waste even if it is relatively benign. However, if you remove any paint with it the grit is then far from benign as it will contain the heavy metal pigments (cadnium red, yellow. . ) as well as lead. Disposal means the entire bulk and you pay by the pound. Currently a new grit blasting method is used where ground dry ice is the media. When you are done the media has harmlessly evaporated and all that is left is the material removed. This is still a hazardous waste but it is reduced in volume and weight a thousand to one. Tumbing media has the same problem but being larger it can be rinsed or screened. |
| - guru - Tuesday, 11/19/02 00:09:46 GMT |
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Lye solution is the ultimate "super quench". Lot of old books mention it and even comment on the "white" finish. Seems it blasts the scale off which gives a faster quench and is better (faster) than brine. The "white" finish looks sorta like a sand blasted finish. Russ Swider down in New Mexico was experimenting with it 10 - 15 years ago and developed many formulas for "super quench". An old heat treating book I have shows lab experiments of different quenches. Seems salt and to a larger extent sodium hydroxide (lye) crystals form on the surface as the local water evaporates. The crystals then explode, blasting the scale off. The explosions also agitate the water locally. It's these explosions that help create the white surface. |
| - grant - Tuesday, 11/19/02 00:10:25 GMT |
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Yeah, sand blasting IS great for painting or hot spray zink or aluminum. The nice thing about tumbling is that it gives a "planished" finish rather than the satin finish of sand blasting. This looks much better if the piece is going to be clear finished. Glass bead blasting can give a similar shiny surface. |
| - grant - Tuesday, 11/19/02 00:19:39 GMT |
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"Grit", either sharp sand or steel grit are abrasive whereas "shot", either glass or steel "peins" the surface. |
| - grant - Tuesday, 11/19/02 00:24:26 GMT |
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guru, et al....what is the proper way to present a drawing to a machinist describing a curvature? for example, a fuller die. i do understand the geometry. radius and part of or a percentage of the circumferance? angle of the taper and distance from the working end to paralell sides?? what do they want to see?? i have not had a chance to speak with the machinist yet about this....the description of a walkway arch could be described this way also?? thanks.... one more that got by you the other day..is there any advantage of a furance that uses 220V vs 110?? thanks again... |
| rugg - Tuesday, 11/19/02 02:08:09 GMT |
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Sand blasting Sand or media blasting uses a lot of abrasive media. The volumn of the media storage tank determines how long you can work without refilling. If the media is recycled, the cost is less, but you still need ample media. Gravity feed systems are not as efficient as pressurized feed systems. Both will do the job, pressurized feed just does it better. No matter what the media, it takes a LOT of air. Unless you have a LARGE compressor with sufficent air storage, you will have to wait for the air to build up again. |
| - Conner - Tuesday, 11/19/02 02:32:31 GMT |
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Dimensioned Drawings: Rugg machined curves are given in radius dimensioned off a center that is also dimensioned. If the radius is tangent to angled surfaces then the included angle of the radius is given. Angles are given in degrees but long tapers are given in inches per foot (in the English system). You should try to reference everything off a common surface or corner to prevent mistakes from creaping in. Drawings to be given to a machinist should have (reasonable) tolerances on all the dimensions. +/- .005" is a common tolerance but +/- .001" is tight on average size parts and you will pay more to meet it. The general rule to tolerancing is to never require anything to be better than it needs to be. See you MACHINERY'D HANDBOOK it has some basic drafting information. The NEW geometric tolerancing system is a pain and most people do not understand it. Notes to the effect of "radius A must be tangent too surface B" are acceptable and appreciated by most machinists. Detailing parts is an art learned from experiance. |
| - guru - Tuesday, 11/19/02 03:09:02 GMT |
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120VAC vs. 240VAC vs. 480VAC: The higher the voltage the smaller the wire that is required for a given load. Copper is expensive so small wire is good. OR the same wire gives you a margin of safety. On a small distribution panel two (1PH) or three wire (3PH) loads are evenly distributed on the incoming wire. Balanced loads are better for the power company and the environment and occasionaly your power bill. The electrical code also limits the size in amperage of a single wire (120VAC) circuit. Above 30A you generaly must use 220VAC circuits. Note that in Europe and some other places 220 volts is the standard current for small appliances, lighting and such, so the above only applies to the US and places with a 120/240 VAC distribution system. |
| - guru - Tuesday, 11/19/02 03:17:46 GMT |
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guru, thanks for the replies. the reason for the volt question: the furnace that i am interested in has the option of running on 220. standard, the unit runs on 110. is there any advantage that you can think of by using a unit operating on 220 vs 110? if you cant imagine any benefit, ill order the 110 as i wont need to put a 220 outlet in; i can use what i have...thanks |
| rugg - Tuesday, 11/19/02 05:36:58 GMT |
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Guru, I bought some 4130 on the online metal store. I was going to use it to make some hammers. I originally had wanted to buy 4140 but could not find it . Is 4130 suitable for making hammers? TC |
| - Tim Cisneros - Tuesday, 11/19/02 05:38:37 GMT |
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QuenchCrack; RE ASO as "reproductions. I just hate the thought of cast iron ASOs reproducing! John L. In a general way, there are 2 schools of hammer wielders, it seems to me. One school uses thick, often short, handles with heavier heads and applies a lot of " body english" trying to smear and cadjole the metal sideways at the moment of contact. They are bearing down hard when the hammer meets the metal. One can sometimes see their hammer faces reflect that smearing action. They tend tohave thick wrists and massive forearms. EA Chase is a good example of this. The other school of hammer swinging might be thought of as "ballistic". They tend to almost throw the hammer head at the work using longer handles and smaller hammer heads over a longer swing. If you are not applying a lot of pressure to the handle at the moment of contact then it is possible to use a much lighter and more flexible hammer handle that absorbs shock well and is easier on the arm. Folks who use this type of hammer quickly learn not to let other folks borrow them as the handles are fragile if used otherwise. This is just my theory and may be pure hokum. |
| - Pete F - Tuesday, 11/19/02 06:14:36 GMT |
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rugg- I'm assuming that your furnace is electric resistance heated, rather than gas-fired with forced air. Given that, the heat it develops is a function of the watts it consumes. Watts equals volts times amps. A heating element is a straight resistive load...a thousand watts can be arrived at by 110 volts drawing 9.1 amps, or by 220 volts drawing 4.55 amps. The size of the element controls the voltage required. You pays yer money and you takes yer pick. As Jock said, the governing factor may be how heavy of wiring you have to supply the unit. A 20 amp, 110 volt circuit will give you about 2000 watts, allowing for some losses. Most household wiring is no bigger than 12 guage, which is rated for 20 amps. Some wiring is only 14 guage, rated at only 15 amps. Check your wiring size to be sure of what you have, and use the appropriate sized circuit breaker for both the wire size and the load. NEVER try to cheat on the breaker size...that will start a fire better than the best Boy Scout! N.B.- A number of cheap houses built during the Vietnam War were wired with aluminum, due to the copper shortage. Extra care and caution should be used if you have aluminum wiring. It corrodes, suffers from galvanic resistance problems at connection points, and can be risky in general. It should be de-rated AT LEAST one guage step for load factor. |
| vicopper - Tuesday, 11/19/02 08:31:35 GMT |
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The other thing that happens with aluminum wire is that it gets loose sometimes. If the screw on a outlet or switch isn't torqued properly. And sometimes even if it is. Aluminum has more resistance than copper so it heats up more for a given current. And since aluminum thermal expansion is double that of steel and 30% higher than copper, under high electrical load, the aluminum can expand under the screw and with a combination of loosening the screw and the aluminum compressing due to the thermal load, the connection can get loose and spark or actually fall off the screw. Either the spark or shorting can cause a fire. That's one reason it's always a good idea to wrap the connections on switches and receptacles with electrical tape. Keeps the wires from falling off. |
| - Tony - Tuesday, 11/19/02 13:58:24 GMT |
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Hey its me agian just need some info on insurance. My Bussiness Plan Project is cominig out great thank u for all your help on this. Oh ya thomas Iam sorry I haven't emaild u it wont let me send it to u so just email me instead goto go later :) |
| George - Tuesday, 11/19/02 14:45:57 GMT |
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120 vs. 240VAC vs. 110: Rugg, 110 VAC is an old standard from back when houses had 30A 220V main panels and distribution systems had a lot of resistance. The modern US standard is 120VAC and at one point inbetween it was 115 volts. . . Now, this doesn't seem much difference BUT when you purchase light bulbs rated at X hours at 110 volts and run them on a 120 VAC system that MAY actually be 125 VAC the life of the bulb is HALF! In our rural machine shop we were replacing bulbs every week and the average life was only two weeks. I purchased a case of 130 volt rated bulbs from our local electrical supplier and they lasted on average of a year. Check the voltage in your house or shop then the rating on the bulbs at your local grocery store. . . Yep, you THOUGHT there was a light bulb conspiracy, there IS but it is VERY subtle. Using dimmers on all your lighting circuits helps. Back to the furnace question. You have never mentioned AMPS or Watts or at least not in the repeat question. As VIcopper mentioned, this is critical. IF at 120VAC the unit needs 30A or more then you will probably need a special outlet put in (normal in modern wiring is 15 or 20A). Check your distribution panel. IF the distribution panel is an old fuse box then it doesn't matter what size fuse is in the holes. 15A should be the maximum if this was an old domestic installation. Ocassionaly one of these boxes are used with 10 gauge distribution wire in a shop or garage and THEN larger fuses are apropriate. I use 10 gauge wire for all my shop wiring and many outlets are on 30A breakers. The reason is that many 120VAC tools I have will trip a 20A breaker under normal use. Those include my B&D Wildcat angle grinder and my mag base drill press (if using a large drill). In our old shop I had to rewire exisisting outlets with heavier wire for those tools. SO, you THINK you may be avoiding installing a special 240VAC outlet by using a 120VAC device. . . but you may not. Normally 120/240 VAC devices give you the option for the rare event that a building does not have 220/240 volt two wire (plus ground) service. |
| - guru - Tuesday, 11/19/02 14:59:39 GMT |
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Hammers: Energy = 1/2 mV^2. Force = ma (mass x acceleration). force is NOT proportioal to mV^2 |
| adam - Tuesday, 11/19/02 15:01:48 GMT |
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Rugg: I've been using a small Cress electric furnace (8"x8") for years. It's 115vac at 12 amps, so it is quite safe to use on all decent home circuits. Remember to keep any combustible material away from the furnace (mine sits on a steel table 12" from the wall & anything else). Never allow anything to touch the heating coils, this will cause a short circuit and likely burn-out the coil. Turn the furnace OFF when opening the door, so you don't accidently short the coil when loading or removing (it's a shock hazard as well). If you (or anyone) would like more furnace tips please feel free to email me -- |
| Zero - Tuesday, 11/19/02 15:46:08 GMT |
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Hi there my name is Wade Duncan I am from Moncton NB Canada , I was wondering if you would have any idea if there are any sort of formal training programs offered in this area or even in this country , I have looked and have not had much luck . I am wondering about this sort of work as a full time job . Thanks for you time |
| Wade Duncan - Tuesday, 11/19/02 16:03:16 GMT |
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Question for you experts: I've been having the same problem on a couple of different smithing processes and wanted to get some opinions on the cause. I first experienced it when working on iForge demo #12, the railroad spike axe. After upsetting the spike, I noticed that some cracks had formed in the surface of the steel, perpendicular to the length of the spike. I figured that the cause was either (1) me working the steel too cold, or (2) pre-existing flaws in the spike. Lately, I've been working on some bottle openers of my own design, and these same sorts of cracks are appearing in a very specific place after a bit of drawing and bending. Since I'm using new steel stock for the openers, I'm guessing that I have been working the steel too cold. Am I missing anything? Thanks in advance for your input. |
| - Marcus - Tuesday, 11/19/02 16:30:58 GMT |
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Marcus, Not knowing the alloy that you're using for the openers, it's a little difficult to diagnose. But, IN GENERAL, stock splitting is a sign of working at the wrong temperature. Usually that means working too cold. Try heating the stock till the first "flea" comes off before you start working it, and stop working while it is still showing some red. Re-heat and keep going. This requires that you keep a near constant eye on the fire and stock. |
| Paw Paw - Tuesday, 11/19/02 17:40:46 GMT |
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I am someone who is just starting to get into chainmail jewlery and armor. i was wondering if there was a way to paint or change the color of the links to add to the beauty |
| Acrall Drageth - Tuesday, 11/19/02 18:39:53 GMT |
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hello, I'm doing a CAPP course and i need a live feed from a career of my choice, i've chosen blacksmithing and was wondering you would answer some questions. please email me if you have the time. |
| Tully Irving - Tuesday, 11/19/02 18:40:27 GMT |
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Paw Paw- Yeah, that's what I figured. I'm just using simple mild steel for the openers. I have a bad habit of working the steel into the black, trying to get that last bit of adjustment done. Since most of my work up to now has been hooks, rakes and other simple things, the mass of the stock has probably been more forgiving than it should. Now that I'm working on more complex items that involve some thinner segments, I guess my bad practices are catching up with me. Ah well. A couple of ruined bottle openers are a small price to pay for a bit of learning. I'll give it another shot this weekend and keep a closer eye on the metal. Thanks, as always, for your help. Marcus |
| - Marcus - Tuesday, 11/19/02 18:56:43 GMT |
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Wondering what typical R-values might be for refractory materials like kaowool, board, and castables? Or is R-value even meaningful in a forge environment? Thanks, Steve |
| SteveA - Tuesday, 11/19/02 19:03:33 GMT |
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Steve, I don't think I've ever seen any refractory material with a stated R value. Usually the spec given is the max temperature the material will withstand. |
| Paw Paw - Tuesday, 11/19/02 19:14:13 GMT |
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Adam, I am the one who originaly stated the infactual equation. I some how got E=MC^2 and E=1/2 MV^2 confused with F=MA. I think I was just tired and too excited about seeing a question that was within my grasp. . . well it almost was;} |
| Caleb Ramsby - Tuesday, 11/19/02 20:27:57 GMT |
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Do you have a formula that will disolve the left over flux on a pieace that has been forge welded, making basket twist handles , have been sand blasting them but takes to long, the flux residue eats through the finish unless i sandblast the piece. Thanks Rich Heinicke |
| rich heinicke - Tuesday, 11/19/02 21:56:28 GMT |
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Regarding the composition of the Russian anvils, I checked the Nimba site and they use 8640, which is a nominal .40% carbon, alloy steel. The Russian anvil was analyzed and found to have .38% Carbon. I am guessing it is a plain carbon steel, not the alloy steel used by Nimba. I am also fairly certain that these anvils are not heat treated per se, they are probably air cooled from red hot after being shaken out of the mold. It is possible that the faces are chilled in the mold or they might even put them in a quenching medium (Vodka?) when they shake them out. The face is indeed harder than the body but not much. I continue to use mine and although it shows some scarring on the face, I will have to work a lot harder to wear it out anytime soon. When that happens, I will post it on E-bay as a collectible with "fantastic rebound and awesome ring, perfect for the amature swordsmith". |
| - Quenchcrack - Tuesday, 11/19/02 22:44:04 GMT |
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Wade. Haliburton (Toronto)collage offers a 13 week program in blacksmithing. Algonquin (Ottawa)collage offers a farriers program. Highland forge in Westport Ont.offers day,weekend and two week programs. there are others e-mail me if you would like more info. |
| Mark P - Tuesday, 11/19/02 22:47:50 GMT |
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Colour Mail Acrall, Steel is best plated or painted otherwise it rusts. Blueing requires oil or lacquer (clear paint) to prevent rusting. Stainless steel can be used and kept oxide blue-black or polished and will hold up to centuries of abuse. If you want bright temper colors then make things from titanium (but there is a whole host of working problems). Decorative mail, armor and jewlery can be made of aluminium. Hard alloy aluminium is as strong as mild steel and it can be color anodized. The anodizing puts on a hard aluminium oxide surface that is very wear resistant and then the pores are filled with colored lacquer. Color anodizing can be almost any color but the common ones are, clear, black, gold, red and blue. Green and purple is occasionaly done. Most anodizers do small batches and if you are not in a hurry you can usualy get the requested color. Black and gold anodizing look fantastic together. However, these colors are not "traditional" and may look odd to some folks. Color case hardening can also be done but it too needs oil to prevent rust. |
| - guru - Tuesday, 11/19/02 22:58:54 GMT |
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I've seen pictures of both silver and gold anodized mail3. The gold was absolutely gorgeous. The same catalog has maile in black, and copper. I'm about half tempted to make some out of copper wire for costume use. |
| Paw Paw - Tuesday, 11/19/02 23:17:57 GMT |
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Flux Removal: Rich, I investigated that many years ago and it takes VERY strong acids that also eat the steel. The problem is that the fired flux is very glass like and being a solvent of everything it has few solvents of its own. It combines with water but very slowly. It is hydroscopic and that is what causes it to expand under paint and wreck the finish. That said. . flux boils off at slightly above welding heat. So that is one way to get rid of most of it. Often if you don't use a lot of flux it disappears in the forging process. . but if you have any left it is problematic. I'm not sure what is in the other fluxes like anti-borax but they may be less likely to cause a problem. However, sand based fluxes ARE glass when they cool and harden. Not much help here. |
| - guru - Wednesday, 11/20/02 00:04:00 GMT |
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Copper Mail: This was used in the movie Exclibur (lousy movie, great exposition of crafts) and then blacked in some manner. The blacking did not like the salt in sweat and resulted in bright coppery areas around the faces of the actors. . I have never seen copper colored anodizing but I expect a red-orange would make a brilliant copper color over the aluminium. That copper mail will turn your skin green. . . AND it is heavier than iron. Aluminium is the way to go. |
| - guru - Wednesday, 11/20/02 00:09:18 GMT |
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On coloring Maille: Some time ago a good friend of mine started making the stuff out of electric fence wire he bought at TSC. Have no idea what the metal has in it, but so far, despite abuse, the belt he made me has not rusted, and I've had some degree of success coloring a link or two by heating them up in a toaster oven (Haven't had the guts to toss the whole thing in the oven yet, and hope for the best). Can't get an even color out of it.. but they look nifty all rainbow-y Heh. Just a thought.. Robert "Asgard" HPL Steel. Hoping to win a decent ebay post vise. |
| - Robert "Asgard" - Wednesday, 11/20/02 04:16:50 GMT |
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For removing borax or borax/boric acid flux from silver, I used to use a hot 10% solution of sodium metabisulfite, which is basically half-neutral sulphuric acid. A 10% sulphuric acid solution will work also, but the metabisulphite is a good bit safer for your skin and clothes. Both are pretty slow to etch steel. I heat the solution to just almost boiling, and the flux is gone in 20 ro 30 minutes. I haven't tried this on steel more than a couple times, but it worked fine. The metabisulphite is available from jewelers supplies, sold under the name Dixcel and others. |
| vicopper - Wednesday, 11/20/02 04:25:55 GMT |
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removing borax: since it is hygroscopic, put the whole object in water, the borax will dissolve overnight, the iron will rust some, but it will be red rust wich is easy to remove by brushing or tumbling or even sandblasting. Usually i use the slack-tub for small parts |
| Stefan - Wednesday, 11/20/02 06:47:48 GMT |
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Vicopper; One might even get one's sodium metabisulfite a little bit cheaper from a winemaker's supply house, if there's one handy. Best regards, 3dogs |
| - 3dogs - Wednesday, 11/20/02 08:22:00 GMT |
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3dogs, Are you sure that is not sodium thiosulfate. . a diferent thing altogether. |
| - guru - Wednesday, 11/20/02 15:05:27 GMT |
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Robert, That may be stainless wire. |
| - guru - Wednesday, 11/20/02 15:07:13 GMT |
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Sodium bisulphite from a wine makers store would be much more expensive. It has to do with the grade of chemical and the level of product liability insurance required. Pickling acid is technical grade, which is just so-so as far as purity goes. Food grade bisulphite for sterilizing is more pure and is intended to be ingested by humans, who are notorious for suing big companies for millions. The cheapest source is usually the least "refined" one. |
| vicopper - Wednesday, 11/20/02 15:34:03 GMT |
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Adam: Your assesment of F=MA is correct, but the deceleration of the hammer against the steel is the F involved in the equation and in moving the steel. The amount of steel to be moved is based on it's strength and the energy you put into it. So certainly E=1/2MV^2 is the formula to be used, if you double the velocity of the hammer as it hits the work you quadruple the energy and potentially the amount of steel moved, less energy absorbed in bounce, etc. Double the size of the hammer and you double the energy IF you are moving the hammer at the same velocity. My dad explained the oft-misunderstood phrase "Don't force it, get a bigger hammer": If you are trying to move a shaft, etc, a bigger hammer swung slowly does less damage to the end of a shaft because the hammer hits slowly with Force behind it. Ideally you hit the shaft with a slow blow which is all absorbed within the elastic range of the steel (shaft and hammer) so no permanent deformation takes place. A small hammer, swung fast, will just peen over the end of the shaft. So if I want to bump a shaft, I get the biggest hammer I can find and move it just fast enough to do the job. Sort of a high speed press. With a small hammer, you can make a nice rivet head on a large shaft laying on the bench without ever moving the shaft. In blacksmithing, you usually want to deform the work. Use a large hammer, swing it slow, and you can drive the anvil into the ground. Use a small hammer, swing it fast, keep the work hot, and you can even work on an anvil which is not tied down. |
| Andy Martin - Wednesday, 11/20/02 16:07:24 GMT |
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zero, that is the unit that i am looking at. appreciate the offer to get advice via e-mail. will contact you sometime this week.. |
| - rugg - Wednesday, 11/20/02 17:13:05 GMT |
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Energy does not necessarily move metal. Energy is the CAPACITY to do work. Energy does not equal work even though they both have the same units. Force moves metal. Adequate force anyway. The force from the hammer MUST create stress in the material larger than the yield stress for the material at that point in time, in order for the metal to deform. Difficult to determine what the yield stress is when the hammer is moving the metal. The moving hammer head at the point which it contacts the steel has a KINETIC energy of mass times velocity squared divided by 2. NOT all of the kinetic energy in the hammer is changed to work in the steel. E=MV^2 will only get you the maximum energy available to do work on the metal. It WILL NOT get you the work done on the metal. This is a VERY Complicated calculation! I challenge anyone to adequately explain the energy/work relationships in hammer and anvil forging. Personally, I think it’s easier to calculate/estimate using F=ma. The problem with F=ma is that a=acceleration=the change in velocity divided by the change in time. How do you quantify the time the hammer is contacting the work? Grin. Andy, I’m not trying to give you a hard time, but the statement “The amount of steel to be moved is based on it's strength and the energy you put into it” is vague because you cannot quantify how much energy you put in. You can make educated estimates based on how much material WAS moved, but the number of variables is huge and some very hard to measure. The bigger hammer vs. smaller hammer doing damage to the shaft is a stress issue. Force over area. The bigger hammer will *generally* have a larger face so the stress (pounds per square inch) is less for the same force (pounds) from the hammer. More of the transferred force from the bigger hammer is going to moving the shaft instead of deforming it as with the small hammer that has a smaller face and more likely to deform the shaft. All that said..... Hit it Hot and Hit it Hard! Grin. If the intent is to move a lot of metal anyway. Strikers use big hammers, not small. Both mass and velocity matter in general hammer and anvil work. Different technique is required for different work. There is no “better hammer for all circumstances”. |
| - Tony - Wednesday, 11/20/02 17:59:57 GMT |
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HELLO I AM IN THE MARKET FOR A NEW ANVIL FOR MY SHOP AND I WAS TOLD OF A FEW GOOD ANVILS. I WAS WONDERING IF A PETER WRIGHT OR A HAYBUDDEN ANVIL WOULD BE THE BEST FOR MY MONEY. ALSO WHERE IS A DECENT PLACE TO FIND A GOOD ANVIL FOR A NICE PRICE AROUND MARIETTA G.A. |
| Justin - Wednesday, 11/20/02 18:16:46 GMT |
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IS FILE STEEL OK FOR MAKING KNIVES. ALSO I HAVE HEARD OF PEOPLE MAKING TOMAHAWKS OUT OF OLD RASPS. HOW DO YOU DO IT? |
| Justin - Wednesday, 11/20/02 18:19:18 GMT |
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Dear Guru, I am a hobby knifemaker of a few years' experience and I have been doing stock removal almost exclusively. Being of limited funds and, more importantly, space, I have not yet set up a forge for my work. I have now seen or heard reference to a one-brick forge, made out of a hollowed-out firebrick, for small projects. This sounded like a great idea except that all the fireplace suppliers in the area (Southwest Iowa) give me blank looks when I ask about soft firebricks (every source says it must be a soft firebrick), and if they ask why I want one then I get these "Are you kidding me?" looks and end up with the entire staff clustered around me agreeing that they've never heard of such a thing. I'm getting to the point I hate asking. Can you tell me a brand name or specific type of brick I should be requesting to expedite this project? "Soft firebrick" just isn't cutting it. Thank you, David Cox peltast_dc@yahoo.com |
| David Cox - Wednesday, 11/20/02 18:51:08 GMT |
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Bought a weed buner recently at a welding supply and it came with a fitting to screw right into the tank. I asked if I needed a regulator and was told the new tanks have a built in regulator! This might be part of the reason people have been having trouble with their forges on these new tanks. Would be nice to know what pressure they are regulated to. Might be a problem for atmosphereic forges. OBTW: I offer a wide range of blowers available from Kayne & Son. |
| - grant - Wednesday, 11/20/02 18:52:34 GMT |
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Hammer weight, etc. Whoa and Wow! All this talk of force, velocity, and vectors has got my head swimming. Having been a teacher for years, I think you just have to be there. In other words, it can't be explained with words. It's similar to a baseball bat swing or a golf swing. How can you explain an efficient swing with words and math? If you're working with a hammer in front of me, I can tell in a few seconds whether you're struggling or not. I try to explain to students what they are doing wrong, but it is ultimately up to them to self-learn. Finally, there comes a point of "breakthrough", and they can feel the difference themselves. If there are two schools of hammering as Pete F pointed out on Tuesday, I am of the "ballistic" variety. I like the longer, slender handle. I either make my own, or I shape a store bought one. I thin them down with a horse rasp or disc sander and scrape them with a piece of glass. I give a ˝ linseed oil - ˝ turps finish, rubbed in well, before putting the handle on the hammer. While on this subject, I was watching master farrier and blacksmith, Edward Martin of Scotland working a few years ago. He averred that in the arc of the swing, there was "a bit of a pullback feeling" as the metal was struck. Lots of beginners push/slide the hammer forward on the work thinking that they are helping draw the metal out. Don't. Hit the metal fair and square and if you have that slight pullback feeling, that's good. |
| Frank Turley - Wednesday, 11/20/02 20:07:40 GMT |
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David, try going to a ceramics supply store, the kind of brick you want is used in kilns and not in fireplaces. As for cost, you should be able to assemble a starting kit of anvil, tongs, hammer and a forge that will do everything from s hooks to forge welding billets for pattern welded blades for about US$25 *total*; I've done it. You don't have a london pattern anvil and top of the line tools but they do work and work well---but you are right about the space constraints Justin *stop* SCREAMING at us we hear you! My advice is to not sink a lot of money into an anvil until you are sure you are hooked on the craft. I'd add in Fisher, Trenton, Arm&Hammer (not vulcan) and Mousehole to your list and say the one you get the best deal for would be the best for you. As to finding them talk to people! You don't want to buy from a smith---like trying to buy their kids. You want to buy from someone who has no use whatsoever for an anvil but has one sitting around the garage or basement ambushing their shins on a regular basis. You can still find good anvils for $1 a pound and *under* that way vs $2 a pound + $$$ shipping on e-bay. Thomas |
| Thomas Powers - Wednesday, 11/20/02 20:58:38 GMT |
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David, I doubt soft firebrick has any application in domestic fireplaces. You can usually find it at a ceramic supply store. You will recognize it soon as you find it. It's very light weight and very friable - you can crumble it with your fingers. Here is one possibility: http://www.baileypottery.com/kilns/kilnmaterials.htm |
| adam - Wednesday, 11/20/02 21:07:06 GMT |
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Hammer size, One more thing to throw in is what you are bashing on makes a big differnce, My shop anvil is 239 pounds, I also have a stake anvil weighing maybe 15 pounds I use at SCA events, using the same hammer doing the same work I get tired much faster at the small anvil |
| JimG - Wednesday, 11/20/02 22:36:24 GMT |
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A bizzare question, I am sure. I was handed a length of chain today which exactly fits the waist of the young lady who handed it to me. She wants it turned to a belt. It rather resembles the chain from a motorcycle.. but it's "thicker".. several links thick. Apparently it was salvaged from a dumpster (real reassuring, eh?) outside the art building on a college campus. It's a bit rusty.. but not terribly so.. and she does want it painted black.. but I'd like to get that rust off first. It's just surface rust, and I'm not about to spend hours at it with a wire brush to get the stuff off if she isn't paying me (did I mention that part?). Anything I could soak it in for a few hours to get enough rust off that I can just spray paint the blasted thing and let her do her belt thing? Heh. Needless to say I'm less than enthused about the project, but it'll be a good experience. Practice for when I need to do something constructive later ;). Soaking it for several hours in Cola was suggested. That work do you suppose? Oh well. If nothing promising shows up, I'll just tell her it's impossible and ignore it. Heh. Thanks in advance. Robert "Asgard" HPL Steel A sucker for a pretty lady. |
| - Robert "Asgard" - Wednesday, 11/20/02 22:57:38 GMT |
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Calculating the amount of work that a hand operated hammer exerts on a piece of metal or any other object is a difficult one. It would be realitivly easy to do said calculations on a drop hammer which utalizes gravitational force as it's energy supplier. A steam/air hammer or mechanicaly powered hammer would also be realitively easy. Well Tony here I go! In the hand held hammer the main energy source is the swinger the secondary force is from gravity. I believe that a dynamometer conected via cable to the head of a hand held hammer would give one the desired figures to calculate the pressure exerted upon the metal. If one were to let go of the hammer or cease manipulation at the exact moment it bounced off of the metal and had another dynamometer attached from behind the anvil via another cable it could calculate the energy returned to the hammer. Thus a large % of the energy not used. The cable on the second dynamometer would need to be accelerated at the exact same rate of the hammer on the down stroke to maintian tension thus achieving a correct figure. If both dynamometers were conected to a graph with syncronized times then one could obtain the time that the hammer and the metal were in actual contact. Then if one were to have the knowledge of the exact temp. of the metal, amount of metal displaced and the resistance of the metal at that exact moment this would give one the amount of energy that was actualy transmited into the metal. After subtracting the energy of deflection and displacement from the applied energy one would have the amount of energy absorbed by the anvil and minute deformation of hammer head. One could also use the amount of applied energy and contact area to come up with the pounds per square inch that were applied to the metal. Another option is to talk Honda into letting us use thier robot for a few experiments. Then we could control the exact amount of energy applied to the hammer and use it's onboard systems(which may need to be fabricated or adapted) to calculate the exact forces applied and recieved from various actions and the exact amount of time that each action took to happen. . . but that would be too easy;} Frank is right though, everything that matters can be more than adequatly concieved with an experienced eye and attention to detail, plus a good bit of experienced instruction. This is the most important of ANY factors. I prefer a handle that is slimed down to the shape that ax's usualy have. The store bought "round" handle gives me no perception of orientation of the hammer head and frequently causes mistakes. Frank is "turps" turpentine or is it a oil or wax? All of this discussion about hammers would yield an informative although somewhat ridiculis section on the "factors in operation of a hammer". |
| Caleb Ramsby - Wednesday, 11/20/02 23:04:58 GMT |
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Soft Firebrick: What you are looking for is "insulating refractory brick". They are used outside hard refractory brick in foundry work and for complete furnaces in pottery work. They come in various densities with some as light as styrofoam. Example:  Forges are not just the capability to get to a certain temperature it is getting there in a relatively short time. The short time requires greater BTU than the micro forge can handle OR the small propane torch burner will provide. |
| - guru - Wednesday, 11/20/02 23:28:50 GMT |
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Rusted Chain: Try soaking it in vinegar. Wash in detergent first to degrease. Will remove most of the rust in a few minutes to a few hours. |
| - guru - Wednesday, 11/20/02 23:36:58 GMT |
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Hammers, Energy and Impact: We had a brief discussion about this a short while ago. The problem with determining the exact force in a forging operation is complicated by the work and resisting mass (anvil). Force developed is easy to calculate but force absorbed is another thing. Foot pounds of force are multiplied by the distance of travel of the hammer in the work less the movement of the anvil. A light anvil on a poor support can absorb a large portion of the energy. To avoid this they build counterblow hammers. Then the work is technicaly floating in space and being struck from opposite directions at the same time. A small fast hammer is good. A BIG fast hammer is better but hard to control. . so until you have the strength to control the big hammer stick to the small. Inexperianced folks that are not used to using hammers do not know when a hammer is too big for them. So I always recommend they start with a small hammer and to move UP when they feel ready. |
| - guru - Wednesday, 11/20/02 23:44:04 GMT |
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My comments on hammer energy were not meant to be rigorous from an engineering point of view. The forum does not justify the detail. The key is that the energy in the moving hammer is all you have available to deform the workpiece. For a particular size hammer, a little faster blow gives you more results than a little larger hammer. Since most novices have difficulty controlling the hammer, they should generally start with a lighter hammer than they think they want and then move to a different weight when they gain some experience. Novices are the only ones who can benefit from this discussion. Experienced smiths have their technique developed and have established a set of intuitive guidelines for themselves that no amount of rigouous mathematics could sway. Nor do they need to change. What works for an individual is what they should stick with. But it is valuable for a novice to understand that hammer control is most important and that a small hammer can be used very effectively. |
| Andy Martin - Thursday, 11/21/02 00:07:47 GMT |
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hello; cleaning chain is relatively easy. Electrolysis Made Easy http://users.interconnect.net/nlindsey/rusty2l/electrolysis/electrolysis.htm i normally use a length of black pipe with a pipe cap on one end. in this setup the black pipe is the anode. the chain is the cathode. for large chain which will not fit in the commonly available black pipe i take several small coffee cans with the lid removed from both ends. i punch 4 holes 90 degrees apart in the top and bottom edges. i use stainless steel electric fence wire and wire the cans together in a long tube. i use a plastic 55 gallon drum |