| WELCOME to the anvilfire Guru's Den - V. 3.0 |
|
THIS is a forum for questions and answers about blacksmithing and general metalworking. Ask the Guru any reasonable question and he or one of his helpers will answer your question, find someone that can, OR research the question for you. Please read the Guidelines before posting a question. Delete above when archiving, correct dates then delete this comment This is an archive of posts from November 24 - 30, 2002 on the Guru's Den |
|
|
|
What are the 5 different names for the files? |
| Paul Sanders - Saturday, 11/23/02 19:21:49 GMT |
|
Forge efficiency: Over the years I've thought a LOT about ways to make my forges more efficient. My gas bill has been pretty stably over the last 25 years at 2% of my billing (this includes heating for shop and offices). Hard to get excited about cutting a few percentage points off of that. More money to be saved in other areas. In the end, I don't care much about thermal efficiency at all, I care about DOLLAR efficiency. I DO understand that hobby smiths may have a different view. |
| - grant - Saturday, 11/23/02 19:27:35 GMT |
|
Hmm, after posting the above, I checked it out and see I'm averaging closer to 1-1/2%. About 1/3 of that is heating so the forges account for only 1% of billings! How much time and money should I devote to saving MAYBE 10 - 20% of that? No, much better to spend the resorces elsewhere. |
| - grant - Saturday, 11/23/02 20:59:28 GMT |
|
Forge efficiency Since I am just a hobby smith(but I do forge a lot) the factor of efficiency in the construction or the use is not my main concern(I am probaly in the minority). My main concern is enjoying what I do and I get the most enjoyment out of constructing and using things that I have contrived. On the small test forge I will not be welding the tubes onto the hood, thus no end plates. They will just slip through a tight fitting hole and then be threaded into a elbow(foolish. . . you bet). I may need slather on some heat resistant clay around the pipes where they jut out of the hood to make a better seal. Because of the lack of end plates and many holes in the hood I will install stiffenrs. At home I do all of my blacksmithing outside(northern Illinois, read cold), so a few(?) leaks in the side of the hood where the tubes fit are not of great concern as long as the tube joints are tight enough to keep the exhaust from sneaking in. The third main type of heat exchanger is the one that the Guru just described, a chamber to chamber radaition/convection unit. It is one I am also strongly considering. The main reason I am making a small forge is so that I can test the differences in the various systems before making the big forge. I will most likely make and test both the tube and chamber systems on the small forge. Just for the small test forge I have decided to use thin walled high carbon steel instead of SS so the costs will be decreased(durability is not required). Which ever system I end up using in the big forge, I will be using stainless(remember it's outside). As the Guru pointed out, if I end up using the big forge for more than a few years then the stainless will pay for it self. So far my experience with heat exchangers has consisted of devouring information about them from books and working on the designs for my small system. I am obvously not even close to being an expert in the field of heat exchangers. So it shall be a learning experience for me to confront the actual construction of these contrivences. |
| Caleb Ramsby - Saturday, 11/23/02 22:13:51 GMT |
|
Caleb: I didn't really want to discourage you. Building things is half the fun. I'd suggest you use Neversieze on the pipe joints if you want any hope of getting them apart. At these low pressures a tiny leakage won't hurt a thing anyway. Actually the exhaust, being the lower pressure, won't "sneak in". Sounds like fun! |
| - grant - Saturday, 11/23/02 22:32:20 GMT |
|
Grant I did not view your post or any others as a discouragement to my project:) Don't worry I am almost impossible to discourage. . . good or bad;}. I do understand that those of you that use blacksmithing to make a living simply can't afford to "waste" the time and resources persuing such fanciful/inefective projects. I was thinking that the exhaust wouldn't be able to "push" it's way into the air intake, but I wasn't sure. The only thing that worry's me is that when the intake air is not under pressure the exhaust will get in and if it makes it's way into the fire pot via the pipes then it would suddenly combust or go boom. Thanks for the advice to use the Neversieze, I believe that I shall. |
| Caleb Ramsby - Sunday, 11/24/02 00:29:56 GMT |
|
Paul From the 1941, "New Encyclopedia of Machine Shop Practice" by George W. Barnwell The delegations for various tooth spacing are: Rough 20 teeth per inch Middle 25 teeth per inch Bastard 30 teeth per inch Second Cut 40 teeth per inch Smooth 50 to 60 teeth per inch Dead Smooth 100 or more teeth per inch There are single-cut and double-cut teeth. On the single- cut files the teeth are cut parallel to each other across the file at an angle of 65 deg. to 85 deg. to the center line. Double-cut files have two sets of teeth, the over-cut teeth being cut at about 40 deg. to 45 deg. and the upcut dog. to 80 deg. to the center line. If you hear refernce to a "safe side" they meen a side that doesn't have ANY teeth on it. A file with this atribute is mostly used to obtain a sharp inside corner, or to obstain from affecting something near the part of the piece you are filing. Some of the various shapes of files are: Flat, Hand, Square, Pillar, Round, Triangular, Half Round, Knife Edge. Some other's are: Barrette, Double Half Round, Oval, Cross Cut, Cotter, Diamond. Then there are special file types: Needle files for fine work. Rifflers with drasticaly curved tips to reach into tight spots, usualy in the insides of castings. Then there are the regular files that have been bent to fit into various places. There have been files produced for practicaly every trade and unfortunatuly as the need for such a variety and abundance of quality hand work is dwindling so is the resource of specialized files. I have read about the forging and cutting of files before and before I leave this earth I plan on undertaking such a process. Just so I will apreciate how important and indispensible a tool they realy are. This would most likely stop me from throwing them into a pile and breaking off all of their teeth too={ |
| Caleb Ramsby - Sunday, 11/24/02 00:56:31 GMT |
|
Making and Care of Files: Files are NOT cheap throw away tools. In some sizes shops DO go through them rapidly but a machinist or other craftsperson will have a drawer with dozens of sizes and cuts and maybe have a thousand dollars invested in files. The last time I restocked a few files I spent $300 on a bag full I could grip in one hand. Making at least ONE file in one's lifetime would be a good intelectual excersize and probably give one a GREAT appreciation for factory made files. Well into the 1800's all files wer cut by hand. This was largely a cottage industry (slave wage homeworkers and child labor). But MILLIONS of files were made by hand and they date back to the bronze age. Nicholson #39 and #40 patternmakers rasps cost about $50 each. They are unique in that they have teeth cut in curved groups that do not make a straight line like conventionaly rasps. They cut fast AND smooth and are worth the price. I clean and oil mine every time I use them. . . but they DO need replacing :( Thee are also special coarse non-cloging files for aluminium. These are made coarser than typical files of the same size and have special line cuts that help release swarf. I also bought a handfull of special rounded diamond key files back when I was locksmithing. These have the correct profile for hand making pin tumbler keys. Files used for plastic, soft and non-ferrous metals should be kept seperate from those used on steel. Steel dulls files rapidly and makes them difficult to cut soft materials smoothly. I save all my old files. Most get worn out in the middle or on the flat side. I have made numerous riffler style spoon files from the still sharp tang end of files. I heat them and bend them before cutting off the extra length. Bent with the curve out makes a nice hemispherical surface. Old files can also be turned into scrapers, gravers and other small tools by careful grinding or stock removal. Nicholson probably had the widest range of files of any U.S. manufaturer. However, when they were bought out by the Cooper group many styles were dropped. The mergers of 1980's were a sad time for variety in quality products. |
| - guru - Sunday, 11/24/02 02:15:26 GMT |
|
guru, Suggest Caleb's comprehensive answer about files, with your notes added, be placed in the FAQ's. |
| Paw Paw - Sunday, 11/24/02 02:22:07 GMT |
|
My thought exactly. . . Needs some illustrations from a public domain source. |
| - guru - Sunday, 11/24/02 02:26:49 GMT |
|
More file lore and poop. I like the information Caleb posted above. More good info on files can be found in Machinery's Handbook and in Metalwork Technology and Practice. I think files are one of the most mistreated and misunderstood of shop tools. My old mentor, Victor Vera, said that his dad and uncle would not let him touch the file teeth with his fingers. They told him it would "ruin the file". I suppose this had to do with acids and/or grease on the hands. He also said that if the files got dull, they put them outside until they were a little rusty, and that sharpened them. This was in San Luis Potosi, Mexico, about 1900. There was no file sharpening service at that time. Some will argue that rubbing chalk dust, soapstone, or "talc" onto the teeth will not prevent some of the pins from sticking. But, I feel that it helps. Beginners will also look at a [wire brush] file card, and since the teeth duck back toward the handle, they want to pull on the file card. Not so. You push a file card (in the direction of the teeth). If you pull, you wreck and undo all of those nicely shaped wires. Some cards have a brush also attached. They're handy. Stubborn pins can be removed with a sheet metal or a wire. Personally, I prefer a brass scratch awl-looking tool which I make from a brazing rod. Ideally, files should be hung on a wooden rack, and files should have handles. And there is no reason to take a 2" stroke on a 12" file. And LIFT ON THE RETURN STROKE. Don't drag it backwards. |
| Frank Turley - Sunday, 11/24/02 02:40:02 GMT |
|
Guru, Add Franks comments, too. I carry my good files in a tool "roll" that my wife made for me from denim cloth. Each file has it's on pocket. I don't usually put handles on all the files, I put one in the roll and move it from file to file as necessary. Franks comment about lifing on the return stroke applies to a hacksaw too, and for the same reason, to avoid dulling the set of the teeth. |
| Paw Paw - Sunday, 11/24/02 02:47:13 GMT |
|
Forge efficiency: Ahh, to heck with efficiency. Lets go for POWER! Toss out that plain old air with it's useless nitrogen and use pure oxygen! Now we'll have some HEAT! And less dragons breathe and NOx too! Side bonus.. if you have a hangover, just suck some of that rich oxygen. Downside? Cost. And a lot easier to cut yourself in half with an errant oxygen/propane flame. Maybe a litle more scaling with a hobby burner that doesn't mix well..... And the flame might melt the ITC 100.... Details, details. Big Grin! One of the ways to get around the desire for a thin wall is to lower the air velocity through the exchanger. Make it a little bigger. Need low pressure drop through the heat exchanger for an atmospheric burner forge anyway. Low pressure drop needs lower velocity and not many bends. On an atmospheric burner forge with a recuperator and no fans, the combustion air side can be lower pressure than the exhaust. So if there is a heat exchanger leak, the exhaust can go into the combustion air. All depends on how much draw there is in the exhaust. I agree that at the current cost of propane, a recuperator doesn't pay. Be careful how much heat you take out of coal forge natural draft exhaust. If it exhausts marginally now, taking heat out of the stack gasses will make it worse. Aluminized is good up to 1200 F. The problem is the welded joints where the corrosion gets accelerated. Coating them with Aremco ceramacoat (I can't remember the number)and then top coating with aluminum paint works well. GM did aluminized exhaust too. Want your carbon steel heat exchanger to never corrode? Use a suppressed current cathodic protection system. Noooo, it's not worth it. Grin! |
| - Tony - Sunday, 11/24/02 03:00:30 GMT |
|
Stainless steel exchangers: Look for food service throwaways. There are many warming boxes, etc. made of thin 300 series ss that can be had for the hauling. Check with restaurant supply houses as they sometimes have to haul the junk equipment out. Scrap is not free, it costs you time. Around heat exchanger companies scrap ss tube drop is often available. I've gotten a bunch of 1" 304 16 ga tubes 22" long as drop off. Making files: An interesting article in Fine Woodworking several years back described a visiting Japenese woodworker being provided with a file to sharpen his tools. He promptly ground the teeth off, annealed it, chiseled new teeth to his liking, and re-heat treated it. Just a craftsman able to make what he wanted. Steel crucible: A welding pipe cap makes a very nice crucible. They are very inexpensive in the 3" to 6" range and just need a handle. Caleb: If your forge is outside I would not worry too much about recycling small amounts of flue gas. The CO and Nxx problems come from buildup in an enclosed area. I suppose a good welding fire in a coal forge makes a lot of CO anyway. The lack of oxygen that protects the hot iron also promotes CO formation. I would worry more about losing all your recovered heat on the way to the fire. |
| Andy Martin - Sunday, 11/24/02 03:32:12 GMT |
|
Bond-bound Try http://www.saber.net/~jere/rose.html Jere is a good guy and carries that sort of stuff. RE recuperative forge design; Why couldnt one use a triple wall pipe stack and suck the incoming air from the middle pipe space? As Tony says, there may be a problem with the stack drawing if it gets too cold. Files; I recently took all my partly dull files, scrubbed them with detergent and tossed them in some buckets with an acid solution ( pretty dilute) After a couple of days, most of them were considerably sharper..We've all read formulas about the proper acids, but I was loose about it, using a phosporic acid-cleaner product and when it stopped cutting I added some muriatic..As the man said, files are expensive (and I'm cheap) A last word on file basics..save one or 2 old ones for testing hardness and unknown steels as well as general abuse. When you hear a zipping sort of sound and the file scates over the surface without cutting....STOP and turn the file over. If you see a shiny line where the file scated, then that line of deeth are dulled and the material you are trying to file is harder than the file. |
| - Pete F - Sunday, 11/24/02 07:33:52 GMT |
|
A note about "stainless steel" for recuperators. Most auto exhausts are Ferritic (409) stainless. 409 seems to do well at exhaust temperatures and is less expensive than the Austenitics (300 series) because it has no nickel in it. Remember that stainless gets its corrosion resistance by maintaining a layer of chromium oxide on the surface. Put it into a reducing atmosphere or one that is very low in Oxygen, and corrosion resistance suffers. I think Grant hit the nail on the head. The cost of fuel is minimal for a gas forge. If you want to save $$$ turn the pressure down a bit. If you don't need welding heat, don't run your forge so hot. Just buying a bigger gas bottle would probably save more money than any heat exchanger could pay back. Of course, the challenge of buying a bigger bottle is considerably less interesting than building a recuperator. |
| Quenchcrack - Sunday, 11/24/02 14:11:13 GMT |
|
What tools do I use to cut out copper shapes for candleums and how do I get fine points, smooth edges? Where can I find "how to " information about working with copper? |
| Paige Britton - Sunday, 11/24/02 14:55:28 GMT |
|
Copper: Paige, This is one of the easiest metals to cut. Even relatively thick copper can be cut with heavy tin snips. It can also be cut with a hand saw. I have used a cheap frame saw with coarse teeth (about like a hack saw) to cut copper and brass sheet. Although sawing leaves a rough edge it is a consistant roughness that is easy to file off. See our iForge demo #87 it has a section on using a jeweler's saw for piercing. A small frame saw or "jig" saw can be used the same was and they are much more common and less expensive. Sometimes you need to spring the frame open to create a little more tension so they work properly. Our iForge demo #80 has some examples of the type of brass candle sticks and chandeliers I used to make. Sources for methods of working with copper range from books on plumbing and sheet metal work to jewelery making. Much comes under general metal working. If you do not have a high temperature torch copper parts can be soldered together using plumbing solder and a propane torch or even a large soldering iron. If you have a high temperature torch copper can be silver soldered or brazed. If you do not have a torch then rivets are easy to use in copper. Rivets can be used as both a construction and a design element. See our iForge demos #83 and #84 on riveting. |
| - guru - Sunday, 11/24/02 16:52:44 GMT |
|
Paige- For cutting copper sheet up to 16 guage, regular tin snips will cut straight lines and gentle curves. Avoid the serrated aviation-typ snips as they leave a sawtoothed edge. For accurate cuts with little clean-up work required, I prefer a jeweler's saw. Blades for a jeweler's saw are available in many different cuts, down to blades as fine as a hair that can cut lines finer than you can draw with a very sharp pencil. You can also cut copper the old-fashioned way with a hammer and chisel. A selection of chisels with various shapes and sizes and a soft iron or steel cutting surface will allow you to cut a wide variety of shapes easily with some practice. To clean-up the edges, use "smooth cut" machinist's files or #0 or #2 jeweler's files. They come in many shapes. Scroll up a few posts to see some very good discussion on this subject. For final finishing of copper, use progressively finer grades of silicon carbide (wet-or-dry) sandpaper and buff with a muslin buff or felt pad and Tripoli for a shine. Check online for tools at www.findingking.com or www.metalworks.com. Check out the discussions at www.ganoskin.com and www.artmetal.com. Your local library or some of the online booksellers should have books on Coppersmithing. Books on jewelry making, silversmithing and goldsmithing wil also have techniques that apply. Most of the copper alloys are worked about the same that silver and gold are. I always recommend Metal Techniques for Craftsmen by Oppi Untracht. It is very comprehensive. |
| vicopper - Sunday, 11/24/02 17:03:05 GMT |
|
Forge Efficiency: In the future saving 10-15% of your fuel costs may be more important than it is today and might possibly even be mandatory. But as Grant said it is small savings. But there are other types of efficiency. My old brick gas forge took 45 minutes to an hour to get up to full heat. Light weight refractory forges take half of that. When time is money the saving is appreciable. The fuel efficiency for the time saved is 100% of cost. For farriers, hobbiests or others only needing the forge for a couple hours the savings from warm up time could be 50% increase in efficiency. In Grant's shop he fires up the forge first thing in the morning and it runs all day. In the morning it may have residual heat from the previous day. In many small but busy shops the forge may only run a few hours a day. The warm up time becomes a much larger percentage of the efficiency. Then there is the question of higher heats. Yes, you could do it by using pure oxygen. This IS a tad expensive and the possibility of melting the forge refractory is a definite factor. Burning or melting the steel is also a serious problem. But on the other hand, you could just SUPPLEMENT the amount of oxygen in the atmosphere a small amount and get significantly higher heats. But that bottled oxygen is still an expensive way to do it. Small gas forges are often difficult to get a decent welding heat and a recuperative system may be benificial in that regard. In coal forges a recupretive system may be the difference between using the coal at hand and more expensive coal shipped a long distance. So there might be a great advantage in this case. But there is also an efficiency of construction and forge cost. No matter how you do it most recupretive systems are going to double the cost of a forge and far more than double its complexity. Putting the heat exchanger in the firepot is probably the most efficient design. It greatly shortens pipe lengths and the lower transport losses may make up for the inefficiency of the heat exchange. And as I mentioned earlier, it cools a part that needs to be cooled. K.I.S.S! |
| - guru - Sunday, 11/24/02 17:26:39 GMT |
|
More on Files From 1948, "The Practical and Technical Encyclopedia" John A. Damm, M.E. and Charles H. Waugaman, M.E., M.A. Generally, all rough files are of the single-cut type; all dead-smooth files are double-cut, the intervening grades being made in both varieties. In describing the length of a file, the tang, or tapered end for fitting into a handle, is not included. |
| Caleb Ramsby - Sunday, 11/24/02 20:34:14 GMT |
|
The usage of files: From 1941, "The New Encylopedia of Machine Shop Practice" by George W. Barnwell. The method of holding the file and the correcr working height are important. The height of the vise should be such that with a bent arm the elbow is on the same level as the top of the vise. Very often a small platform or plank is used on the floor so that a shorter man may reach the correct height conveniently. The feet should be placed well apart, left foot about 24 in. in advance of the right. The file may be held either with the handle in the right hand and the tip of the file on the left hand or vice versa. It is only nescessary to consider the former case, since the position of the hands will merely be reversed for the left-handed person. The posistion of the left hand on the tip of the file should be varied according to the type of work or file in use, but the grip of the right hand on the handle is always the same. The file handle rests in the palm of the hand, the thumb is along the top of the handle and the index-finger points along the side. This grip enables the file to be kept perfectly level while the weight is applied first to the left hand at the beginning of the stroke, then later at both hands equally in the middle of the stroke, and finally to the right hand at the end of the stroke. The tip of the file should be gripped with the left hand where the tip of the file is under the palm of the hand and all the fingers are underneath. This is a powerful grip and one which enables the maximum weight to be applied. It is therefore used with a medium or long file on work which requires a large quantity of material to be removed quickle. When using the smaller files, and when filing curved surfaces. It will be seen that the tip of the file is held be the thumb and index-finger. In the third method the thumb and fingers are streched as far as possible and are pressed evenly against the file. This insures that the weight is more evenly distributed over the whole length of the file, so that there is a greater tendency for it to remain horizontal. The run of the file can be felt, and any unevenness in the work will be readily detected. Additionally, the hand is not in the way of the work and therefore the full length of the file can be used. Beginners' Faults: The fault with most beginners is that they allow the file to rock or seesaw, with the result that a convex surface is obtained. This can be avoided if care is taken to keep the body still and to make the arms pivot about the shoulders. On narrow pieces of metal it is often found easier to keep a flat surface if the file is held diagonally to the work, filing forward and to the left in one continuous movement and then, after a few strokes, going forward and to the right. Downward pressure should be applied only on the forward stroke, the file being drawn lightly backward without actually being lifted from the face of the work. This is described because the teeth are designed to cut on the forward stroke only, and any pressure applied on the backward stroke serves to dull the teeth more quickly without serving any useful purpose. Generally, when a particular job has been filed to size and shape it is finished by draw-filing. The file is held with the fingers on the edge away from the body and the two thumbs on the edge toward the body. The file is then drawn and pushed along the surface with an even pressure. A smooth file is used, and this makes comparatively few very fine cuts or scratches along the work, parallel to the longest edges. This gives a much better appearance than scratches running across the surface. The tendency for the beginner is to apply most of his effort when the file is in the middle of the long edge. In consequence, the surface becomes hollow. This fault must be guarded against by careful testing after draw-filing, and rectified, if necessary, by making a few more strokes at the ends. Draw-filing produces a sharp wire edge on each edge of the surface being filed; this is easily removed by holding the file at an angle and running it lightly down each edge. In doing this the tip of the file (safe edge down) should be supported on the vise-jaws. The work can be further finished by polishing with fine emery-cloth and oil. A surface treated in this way will withstand rust better. If files have been carelessly used they may be renovated to a certain extent by boiling them in a strong solution of soda and water for a few minutes; this removes the grease and dust, and after a good scrub with a file card or a wire brush the file should be dipped in kerosene to prevent rusting. |
| Caleb Ramsby - Sunday, 11/24/02 21:19:46 GMT |
|
Added Handle: From the 1950 "Practical Ideas for Machinists" by H. E. Linsley. Extra Handle Aids in Filing: For heavy filing jobs an extra handle can be made which grips the sides of the tip of the file, yet gives freedom of movement in any direction. Two jaws are fastened to a stud at the center and supported by a channel-shaped bridge through which the stud passes. A handle is tapped to screw on the stud. Fastening the handle on the tip of the file is done be placing the jaws over the sides and screwing the grip until solid. Changing from side to side of the file or from one file to another necessitates loosening and tightening the grip. With this type of handle, the fingers and hand are always clear of the cutting surface and plenty of pressure can be applied to take good clean strokes for removing metal. More work can be done with less effort and better control. |
| Caleb Ramsby - Sunday, 11/24/02 21:28:44 GMT |
|
Caleb, Could you make a handle like you describe, or send me a picture of one so I could make one to include in the FAQ? |
| Paw Paw - Sunday, 11/24/02 21:31:55 GMT |
|
Forge Recuperation: I dont know where you guys live but I am paying $8 - $9 to fill a 20lb tank which lasts about a day. Over a year this easily racks up to more than $1000. Mebbe for those of you charging $100/hr for labor this is loose change but for a small operation running in a garage this is a significant fraction of my annual budget. It is my unscientific opinion that recuperation is saving me almost 50% on my gas cost. My forge recoups heat by routing the hot exhaust over the the outside of the refractory shell. There is a 2" air gap between the shell and the outer layer of insulation. It also preheats the air/propane mix since the burner passes through this cavity. I found I was getting way too much preheat and had to wrap the burner tube with kaowool to stop pre ignition. Even with this simple design - no tubes or heat exchanger- the forge was about 5x (again unscientific estimate) as much trouble as a plain design. BTW I used JP Green's Pyramid Super Air Set refractory for the inner shell. Very easy to use. Rated 3000F and seems to be invulnerable to flux. I find Kaowool too fragile for the inner liner - I am always snagging the work on it. |
| adam - Sunday, 11/24/02 21:46:05 GMT |
|
File Hardness Test: From the 1948 "American Society for Metals, Metals Handbook" edited by Taylor Lyman. This book is affectionatly known to me as the "Big Red Book". In defining the term "file hard", one should specify the hardening procedure used on the test block that the file cannot "touch". The surface of the steel article being tested is rubbed slowly but firmly with the sharp teeth of the file until the operator has determined whether or not the file will "bite", that is, whehter or not the material is "file hard". The test is, for the most part, limited to untempered hardened parts, and comparative testing within a given shop. The information derived form it is influenced by the following factors: 1. Size and Shape of File. These should be standardized as: (A) 6-in. Pillar Testing File No. 0 and No. 1 to be used on flat, oblong, and square test pieces; file No. 0 is suitable for hardened steel, file No. 1 for tempered steel. (b) 8-in. Pillar Narrow Testing File for hardened steel. (c) 6-in. Three square Testing File No. 1, for testing an object of irregular shape in which there are crevices and grooves. 2 Hardness of File. As long as a file will cut a master test specimen, it is suitable for testing purposes. 3 Speed of Filing. The slower the speed, the more accurate the test. 4 Pressure. This will vary among operators, but should be kept as firm and as nearly constant as possible. 5 Angle of Contact. This should be kept as nearly constant as possible. 6. Composition and Heat Treatment. With steels of Rockwell C 60 or more, differences in composition and heat treatment are associated with apparent anomalies, such as the relative hardness of two materials being reversed with the file test as compared with an indentation hardness test. |
| Caleb Ramsby - Sunday, 11/24/02 21:47:06 GMT |
|
Picked up a very nice Champion #1 (65 lb. hammer). The hammer is in extra ordinary good condition. Absolutely no wear on the dovetail guides, flyweel, brake etc. Heck even the area on the flyweel that the brake rides on has zero wear or scoring marks etc.. Everything is tight but moves very very freely. Well worth the 17 hour (1 way) drive to pick it up ;-) Any how, im replacing the 3 phase motor with a single phase. The 3 phase motor is 850 rpm, all i can find in a single phase is 1750+/-. Im wondering if it will be possible to either A) Find a single phase motor that is around 850 or B) use a smaller drive pulley to get the same net flyweel speed. I have the leather strap that came with it, but have been told i can get a custom made strap of about any length i want. I will likely go with replacing the strap as well since im at it. So any advice on the motor situation or where to get a strap made is greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance. |
| Machinehead - Sunday, 11/24/02 21:56:08 GMT |
|
Well I hope the copied information I posted will help on the potentail FAQ article on files. I must thank my Grandfather from who I have recieved most of my literature on machining and metals. He used to work as the head floor, mechanical and electrical engineer, at the local Babcock and Wilcox(Rockford, IL). I still love to hear(for the 50th time) his informative and very entertaining stories about his time spent there, especially during the wars when they were one of the only manufactures of howitzer shells. For example, the time that a warehouse they were dealing with full of H.E. shells had to be rid of, because the idiots there didn't remember to turn the shells every so often. They were filled with liquid explosives and it hardened. His life would make such a wonderfully fascinating book, as would many of the "old timers" that we still have with us. . . and often take for granted! Right now he is 85 years aged(compared to my 23) and keeps on telling me, "Just wait until your 90. . . you'll understand". |
| Caleb Ramsby - Sunday, 11/24/02 22:08:58 GMT |
|
File cleaning: I use mostly single cut files -- I find I get a superior finish. I DON'T clean them with a file card/brush, I use a flattened piece of 3/8" or 1/2" copper tubing... Flatten the end of the tube 1/2" and bend it down 20 - 30 degrees, chamfer the end with a 20 (or so) degree angle, then work it into the file teeth holding the tubing perpendicular to the file tooth angle and moving parallel to the the teeth. This will clear the most stuborn chip, and not dull the file. File cards use high carbon music wire, so it's just like filing hardened tool steel -- not to mention on a Mill Smooth or a Mill 2nd the diameter of the file card bristles won't reach the bottom of the file tooth. Just my $0.02 worth.... |
| Zero - Sunday, 11/24/02 22:43:57 GMT |
|
Machinehead, A drive pully 1/2 the size of the driven pulley will bring the speed down very close to what you want. (if my math is right, guru please check me). MSC sells the equipment to make the drive belt with and can probably sell you the belt as well. |
| Paw Paw - Sunday, 11/24/02 23:06:57 GMT |
|
Caleb: When I learned to draw file, I was taught to put the handle on the left side. That way it cuts on the "draw" stroke. Works for me. |
| - grant - Sunday, 11/24/02 23:14:47 GMT |
|
Machinehead: You can get a phase converter to covert single phase to three phase (1 - 3 HP is under $125). This will likely be less than the cost of a new motor -- and, keep the slower RPM of the stock motor. McMaster-Carr (www.mcmaster.com)has flat leather belting and the clips/staples required to join the belt -- actually, McMaster-Carr has EVERYTHING... It's a wonderful resource! |
| Zero - Sunday, 11/24/02 23:15:26 GMT |
|
Paw Paw, My scanner is having fits and refusing to function;{ so I have uploaded a picture of the draft that I have in the book for the file handle to the Yahoo account, thanks for creating that by the way. I created a new folder named after me and named the picture "The secondary handle for files". This should give you a much clearer description of the handle design and could also be used in the FAQ. I think that a picture of a real handle of this type in addition to the draft would be of substantail worth. I have not made one as of yet, so I can't take a picture of a real one. I would suggest that you make one. . . since the one I would make would most likely resamble a pile of junk assembled in an intrigueing manner. I am thinking that a quick and dirty(see intrigueing pile of junk) way of manufacturing it would be to use a bolt welded(by it's head) to two pieces of appropaitly sized angle iron for the clamp. Where the bolt head is attached to each piece of angle iron there would need to be a pivot of some sort. Then feed the bolt through the hole in the "bridge" and weld a nut to the bottem of a handle with a hole drilled in it so that the bolt can enter the handle without restriction. |
| Caleb Ramsby - Sunday, 11/24/02 23:20:15 GMT |
|
Machinehead, If the required pulley is unreasonably small and if the 3 phase motor is all mounted, there is another trick I've used. Leave the old motor on, add a v-pulley onto it and use the motor as a jack shaft. You just need a 2:1 ratio on the pulleys. Works great! Lot of those old HD 3 phase motors can be made to work fine on single phase using a capacitor. Have to ask someone else how thats done. |
| - grant - Sunday, 11/24/02 23:24:23 GMT |
|
Zero, Thanks, I was thinking of McMaster Carr when I typed MSC. Senior moment. |
| Paw Paw - Sunday, 11/24/02 23:24:43 GMT |
|
Guru, I posted this a while back and think you might have missed it. I bought some 4130 on the online metal store. I was going to use it to make some hammers. I originally had wanted to buy 4140 but could not find it . Is 4130 suitable for making hammers? I have been told by another source that it is not because it is a water quench steel.TC |
| - Tim - Sunday, 11/24/02 23:42:31 GMT |
|
Low RPM Motor Machinehead, The above posts are correct. Low RPM motors are listed in many catalogs but are generaly made to order by the manufacturer. Reducing the pulley size by half will work BUT may create a situation where you do not have enough contact area. The tighter radius is harder on the belt too. A solid state inverter will probably be your cheapest solution. The other option is to make a "back shaft" and use the existing pulley to drive the hammer and use 2:1 reduction on the motor to back shaft end. This requires some more parts and pieces but I have been able to do this a couple times on old machines with scrounged pillow blocks, shaft and pulleys. . . Glad you like the hammer. I'm guessing that is the one I found for you. . :) |
| - guru - Sunday, 11/24/02 23:42:44 GMT |
|
Hammer Steel: Tim, Sorry I did not get back to you. The 30 point carbon may be a little low for a hammer but it should harden enough. Air, oil or water quench generally makes no differnece in the end product. As an aloy steel it will harden deeper than a plain carbon steel of the same carbon content so it should effectively be as good as a higher carbon plain steel. I'll look up the hardenability and get back shortly. If it turns out a little soft a hammer that is softer than your anvil has some advantages. Grant? Any input on 4130? |
| - guru - Sunday, 11/24/02 23:52:59 GMT |
|
I'd rather use 4130 than 4140 for this purpose anyway. Works very similar to 1060 (which is harder to find in any case). Better to have water-hardening steel if you want to do a differential harden. My favorite quench for a hammer is using a faucet or hose over the slack tub. You dip the pein while running water on the face. The water should hit right in the middle of the face - you want it harder in the center than the edges. Save enough heat in the body to draw to peacock. All your attention is on the face, don't even worry about the pein, let it draw back more than the face. Surface on as-quenched 4130 (1-1/2 inch round) should be aroud 50Rc, after draw mid 40's. |
| - grant - Monday, 11/25/02 00:11:35 GMT |
|
Grant, Please e-mail me. I got an error on your uswest account. |
| - guru - Monday, 11/25/02 01:20:54 GMT |
|
Can anyone tell me where I can get design for a beginner? My son is trying to do this and I don’t know nothing can anyone help? |
| john - Monday, 11/25/02 02:34:01 GMT |
|
Tony, I am considering using a blower at the end of the exhaust stack. I would power this with a weight that would fall and turn a wheel which would be geared to the blower. When this weight fell as far as it can go, the second weight falls 1/4 of its total fall and via a 1 to 4 gear raises the first weight to the top again, when the second weight falls all of the way down it is raised with a third weight using the same principal of the prior weights. In this system there are two primary(smaller) weights so that as one is being raised the other is falling. This is just so when I am using the big forge in a place where electricity is not availiable I would not have to be cranking on the exhaust stack blower all of the time. Although I will need to raise the biggest weight every once in a while. The amount of mechanisms are much too numerous to even begine to describe them here. I first concieved of this system when designing a waterfall. . . Andy, Thanks for the restaurant supplier tip! I am going to use some of that wrap that is used on headers for cars to try and contain the heat in the air delivery pipe on it's way from the heat exchanger to the forge. Yes, they are notorious for causing corrosion, but in the bid forge the pipes will be SS. Or instead. . . I could just put a box around the pipe and cook food in it as I work and kill two turtles with one marble. Grin Quenchcrack, If I find a bunch of 300 series SS would I be able to aleviate the reducing atmosphere by pumping some of the heated air into the exhaust, thus admiting oxygen? Or would this just burn the exhaust up and start to melt the whole aparatus? Grant, So you are kind of operating the file in "reverse"? Sounds like a good idea! |
| Caleb Ramsby - Monday, 11/25/02 03:24:45 GMT |
|
Design for What? John, We have 150 step by step demos on our iForge page. Several done by a 10 year old smith and another by a teenager that has a smithing business. There is lots of help here if you poke around and ask questions. |
| - guru - Monday, 11/25/02 04:35:42 GMT |
|
Bought an anvil from 1924.make soderfors sweden,The top plate has been so beaten over the years that it has gone concave from the beack to the hardie hole.The anvil is a two piece deal with the bottom being cast ant the top plate about 3/4 inch hardend steel.Is it safe to grind off about an 1/8 of an inch ,or is there a better way ? thanks gregor |
| gregor - Monday, 11/25/02 05:46:29 GMT |
|
Bought an anvil from 1924.make soderfors sweden,The top plate has been so beaten over the years that it has gone concave from the beack to the hardie hole.The anvil is a two piece deal with the bottom being cast ant the top plate about 3/4 inch hardend steel.Is it safe to grind off about an 1/8 of an inch ,or is there a better way ? thanks gregor |
| gregor - Monday, 11/25/02 05:46:31 GMT |
|
Caleb, I think a lot of designs allow for some fresh dilution air to be mixed in with the exhaust. I'm not clear on how your design will work but anything that brings some amount of 02 into the SS chamber will help prevent loss of passivity on the stainless components. Re: Gas economy. We pay $10 for a 20lb refill in TX. But only $12.50 for a 30lb. By the time you get to a 100# bottle the price has gone down considerably. If you are running a small shop, I would think the investment in a large tank would pay for itself very quickly. I use a 20# bottle on my single burner forge and it uses about 1# per hour at 10 psi. For a hobbyist, that is pretty cheap compared to running a bass boat! |
| - Quenchcrack - Monday, 11/25/02 13:30:53 GMT |
|
Thanks for all the good info fellas! YES this is the one you found Guru, i appreciate that immensely!! The hammer is really in unbelievable condition even the dies are virtually new (and appear original). Thats why Richard was going to keep it and sold the Little Giant, Moloch, and Beuadry. The hammer is very well made and engineered well. I like the double treadle and the fact that you can work it from either side. Any how, i think i will try a converter if i cant custom order a slow single phase motor. Im guessin the reduced pulley diameter will not allow enough contact with the belt, as many have indicated here. Thanks again, and Happy Thanksgiving! |
| Machinehead - Monday, 11/25/02 15:35:48 GMT |
|
Machinehead, Do you appreciate it enouth to join CSI? Or are you already a member of CSI? |
| Paw Paw - Monday, 11/25/02 15:40:33 GMT |
|
Greetings Guru(s) I'm brainstorming an idea for a PH. I was thinking of using two cylinders with hoses cross connected. One for the ram (hammer) and a second one for a driver i.e. having its piston connnected to a crank wheel, belt driven with a slip pully clutch. Would there be enough air power to drive the ram cylinder? Would the "driver" cylinder have to be larger to compensate for the weight of the hammer? (Considering 15-25#)Or should they be equal in size? Thanks in advance for your help. |
| Dodge - Monday, 11/25/02 16:15:13 GMT |
|
Paw Paw, once again i need enlightenment. CSI? I dont spend enough time here i guess ;-) |
| Machinehead - Monday, 11/25/02 18:07:55 GMT |
|
Machinehead, If you can't custom order a slow single phase motor, change BOTH Pullyies. If you had a local machine shop turn you a pair of aluminum drive pullies to fit the shafts, each about 4" in width, one with a 3" diameter and the other with a 6" diameter, you'd be home free. |
| Paw Paw - Monday, 11/25/02 18:09:21 GMT |
|
Make sure they turn a crown on both pullies, too. That should get you running for less than a $100 bucks. |
| Paw Paw - Monday, 11/25/02 18:10:18 GMT |
|
What does a blacksmith do on an average day? |
| - Caleb Merchant - Monday, 11/25/02 21:07:31 GMT |
|
can you tell me some info and pictures of what silver smiths made in the 1700's? |
| naimah ford - Monday, 11/25/02 21:13:57 GMT |
|
Quenchcrack, I am considering admiting the dilution air with two or more pipes at the bottem of the hood. They would point up into the stack. I think that this would help the draw, considering that the heat exchanger would most likely reduce the velocity. Especially if I design a "dead zone" where the exchanger is placed, so that there is more time for the heat to transfer. Another crazy idea I am considering is making a constant steam producer. This would consist of a 5 gal. bucket outside of the hood, with a 1" pipe coming from the bottem of it into the side of the hood. The pipe would be bent in a big U shape so that inside the hood it would point up and be suffecient in length to make sure that the water in the bucket doesn't push it out. There would be no restriction for the steam so no pressure would be contained. It would be self feeding too. I think that this might clean off the deposits that the coal fumes would put on the SS chamber and pipes or it might just enhance the corrosion process although stainless should hold up. Mabey I should just use inconel. grin |
| Caleb Ramsby - Monday, 11/25/02 21:27:41 GMT |
|
Machinehead, I have just recently joined Cyber Smiths International(CSI) to help support this great resource(Anvilfire). If you scroll all the way down and click on the "CSI - anvilfire MEMBERS Group", you will be able to find out more and read about the advantages of being a member. |
| Caleb Ramsby - Monday, 11/25/02 21:33:28 GMT |
|
self contained air hammer: I would think the driver cylinder would have to be larger dia to give you a gearing effect. Why use a slip belt? why not do all the controls with the air? Thats the big advantage of air, its controllability |
| adam - Monday, 11/25/02 21:40:38 GMT |
|
Caleb(hey that's ME, wait. . . what), Well if you are wondering about what a blacksmith did days ago, go to the story page here and read "Henry Haus Blacksmith Shop", also many of the other stories there. A great book is "The Village Blacksmith", I can't remember the authors name. If you want to know about what a modern blacksmith does(I am just a hobby smith) I am sure one of the fine fellows here will be glad to give you an idea. |
| Caleb Ramsby - Monday, 11/25/02 21:46:16 GMT |
|
Caleb Merchant, Pound on hot iron. File on cold Iron. Shape hot iron. Maintain his fire. Shovel Coal, or Coke, or Charcoal. Go buy propane for the gas forge. Talk to customers. Answer questions from the kids that stop by the shop after school. And a thousand other things. Naimah, Look up Paul Revere. He was a silversmith (among other things) and much of his work has be drawn and photographed. Machinehead, Caleb Ramsby answered before I saw your question. (Somehow, I missed it before.) |
| Paw Paw - Monday, 11/25/02 21:48:29 GMT |
|
I'm doing a small research paper on the benifits of a blacksmith shop at a historical Village. I don't need exact numbers or anything. But I just wanted to have a wide range of blacksmith shops. This won't be published or anything it's a college class asingment just your run of the mill research paper. Any info that I can get would be useful. Thanks Journyman |
| - Journyman - Monday, 11/25/02 22:07:55 GMT |
|
Hi, I am relativly new to forging as a hobby, but I am very interested to buy a small to med. size gas forge. Where can I find perhaps a Webside that sells gas forges and what should I be looking for? thanks for your help !!!!!! |
| wolf - Monday, 11/25/02 22:10:35 GMT |
|
I'm looking for a mechanical/clockwork fireplace rotisserie for turning large roasts in front of a fireplace for hours. The kind you either wind up or pull up the pendulum weights on to activate a escape mechanism that turns the spit with the roast on it. Do you know of anyone who makes this sort of thing? Thanks a lot. |
| John Crain - Monday, 11/25/02 23:04:15 GMT |
|
Journyman, I HIGHLY recomend visiting your local library and checking out "The Village Blacksmith". It is about what a blacksmith provided for a village. That being said, if you look around your domain EVERYTHING you see that is metal and the things that arn't, but should be, were produced by the blacksmith and still are! Here is a list of things that a blacksmith would make: Essential parts for wagons and sleds, ax's, hammers, crowbars, candle holders, knifes, hinges, bolts, nails(although these were often made by people beside their fireplace), andirons, fireplace tools, various hooks for domestic use, hand hooks for moving hay and such, rake tines, plow blades and other farm implementation, barrels for the gunsmith, table ware, screwdrivers, wrenchs, shovels, the list could go on forever! All of the afore mentioned items could have been acquired from a store. . . but they store would most likely be half the country away and the items would need to be transported much of the way via wagon. This could take half a year at times and be VERY expensive. The thing that is often forgotten is that almost ALL of the other essential craftsman in the village and surrounding area RELIED on the blacksmith not only to make their tools but to repair them and often sharpen them too. I have not said anything about horse shoes because more often than not there was a ferrier that would make regular rounds to shoe the horses, but if there was an emergency the blacksmith would do the job or sometimes he would do all of the horse shoeing. So you can see that the blacksmith was an essential part of the community! Frightingly enough since the blacksmith knew how to make dentist tools, if there wasn't one in the village he would be bestowed with the task of removing ones aching tooth. . . imagine that if you will! |
| Caleb Ramsby - Monday, 11/25/02 23:17:26 GMT |
|
i am making my fiancee her engagment ring how would i go about it? |
| matthew martin - Monday, 11/25/02 23:50:17 GMT |
|
Wolf, check out Kayne and Son (see banner) or go to NC tools website. They both sell gas forges at a reasonable price. OR.....check out the many designs to make one yourself at a fraction of the price. A little help here! Where are the forge designs kept? PPW, Guru ? Caleb Ramsey! If you can afford Inconel, you don't need to waste time on a recuperator! |
| Quenchcrack - Tuesday, 11/26/02 00:23:48 GMT |
|
Caleb and Caleb, "The Village Blacksmith" is authored by Aldren A. Watson. Another "The Village Blacksmith" is authored by Ronald Webber, a British book about lore and history. Both are excellent, except Watson has the heat rainbow running backwards on an edge tool. |
| Frank Turley - Tuesday, 11/26/02 00:25:52 GMT |
|
most days for me go like this. wake up drink coffee stumble into the shop rack tools, sweep floor/ benchs oil tools (drill press,grinders lathe,etc) work on something, (could be anything form a knife to a hinge) stop for lunch, drink coffee, go into office, make phone calls(costomers, steel yards,etc) check email drink more coffee run out for something (sandpaper, nuts, bolts, welding rod, go to bank, replace the darn drill that broke, meet with a costomer, etc.) eat dinner go back to shop and work ... go to bed and start over.. on a good day I work in the shop 6-8 hours, on a bad day I could never get into the shop at all. (like if I am working on designs/ priceing something) that is on top of 3-4 hours of office work and running around. MP |
| MP - Tuesday, 11/26/02 01:02:25 GMT |
|
Matthew Martin: I've made some spectacular wedding bands for some of my NASA buddies out of nickel/iron meteorites. (Chinga meteorite, to be specific) Of course, having a machine shop helps.... If you don't happen to own a machine shop; Then Check the iForge demo's on this site, and look at Vicopper's most excellent lost wax demo. That will lead you down the garden path for basic jewelry casting. |
| Zero - Tuesday, 11/26/02 01:07:33 GMT |
|
Matthew, What are you going to make it out of? To the best of my knowledge there are basicaly two methods. 1. Make a strip and weld it. 2. Start with a chunk, punch or drill a small hole in it and then drift it out to the proper size. OR You can cast it and then file it down. I have never made jewelery so some of the others will be able to give you more specific information. Quenchcrack, I WISH I could afford inconel, not even close. I do however have a few shaft's of it about 1 1/2" dia. 3' long, that my grandfather acquired from a previous job, it was shafting in a steam engine. I am saving them for something special. . . Frank, Thanks, I had no idea that there were two! The one I read had a few pages that were taken from a later day blacksmith's production log, spanning over a year or so, very interesting. It sounds like I read Webber's, although I am not sure. |
| Caleb Ramsby - Tuesday, 11/26/02 01:07:40 GMT |
|
Engagement Ring: Matthew, Hmmmmmmm..... If you want to make her happy for as long as possible, go to the nearest jeweler and buy the biggest diamond ring you can afford. . . Otherwise. . What metalworking craft do you know? Gold and silver are some of the easiest metals there are to work and currently silver is still a bargain. However, stainless jewelery sells for higher than silver because it is more difficult to work. I turned my wife's ring on a small metal lathe. The outside was hand contoured as the lathe turned using a combination of the lathe cutter and files. Most silver and gold rings are cast and then finished by hand or in a lathe (see our iForge demos on molds and casting). But it is also common to work the metal entirely by hammering. Silver is also commonly, cut, bent then welded together. I suspect gold is too. Often pieces of silver and gold wire are used together. Some of the most exotic and expensive metal is laminated steel (often called Damascus). See our book review on The Pattern Welded Blade OR Forging Damascus. In Dona Meilach's Decorative and Sculptural Ironwork there is a Damascus band in a gold setting. Very nice and quite unique. As mentioned above, metoric iron is available but it is difficult to work. How you go about it is highly dependant on the available tools and your skills. This is probably one of those areas that if you have to ask, you shouldn't be doing it. The best alternative if you MUST make it is to sign up for a jewelery class and make it there. You will be taught the techniques AND have access to the school's tools (torches, casting equipment). |
| - guru - Tuesday, 11/26/02 02:03:40 GMT |
|
Quenchcrack and others, Check out Ron Reils web site for gas forge burner design, www.reil1.net He has lots of other neat photos and stories there also. |
| - Robert-ironworker - Tuesday, 11/26/02 02:04:53 GMT |
|
Engagement ring: Matthew, if I knew what metal you were considering making a ring out of, I could offer some very detailed guidelines. Every metal has different processes that may or may not be suitable for a project such as an engagement ring. Ferrous metals will probably require more heat than is easily achievable in order to successfully cast them, so forging is a more appropriate solution. Start with a small piece of billet or plate and punch a hole, then drift it to size and do the profiling with files and gravers. Engagement rings traditionally have stones set in them, most usually a solitaire set. Prong setting a faceted stone with ferrus prongs will be unsatisfactory unless you use a nickel/chromium/iron alloy (stainless steel). Only a handful of the stainless alloys would be malleable enough to allow prong setting of a stone without serious risk of fracturing the stone. Gold, silver and platinum are more commonly used for rings. Silver is a poor choice for stone setting, except for bezel-set cabochon stones. The harder alloys of gold and platinum with iridium are better for prongs. Gold and silver can be readily cast by the amateur metalsmith. See the iForge demo on casting. Fabricating a ring from gold or silver is also relatively simple. Half-dome wire for ring shanks is sold by jeweler's supply houses, as is the hard solder necessary for joining. A handyman's propane torch will do the job, but an air/acetylene torch or oxy/acetylene torch will be faster. Again, finishing is by the careful use of jeweler's files, sandpaper and finally buffing. If you give me more information, I can probably help more. Check out jewelry making books at your local library. For beginners, Rober Von Neumann wrote a good book entitled The Design and Creation of Jewelry ISBN 0801970679. |
| vicopper - Tuesday, 11/26/02 02:08:44 GMT |
|
Hey guys, it's been awhile. I'm interested in making a tomahawk for a friend who has a taste for American Indian decor. Probably a wall hangar, but I want to try to do it right. After checking some websites and looking into the demos here, I'm still a little confused on the drifting process...is the drift punched all the way through the eye, or tapped out back the way it came? Does it get stuck? Does it stay in for any of the forging process? Any advice would be greatly appreciated... Gator |
| Gator - Tuesday, 11/26/02 02:10:06 GMT |
|
Robert, We have links to Rons page in several places including our links page, hotlinks, ABANA-Chapter links and our forge burner plan. . . ;) |
| - guru - Tuesday, 11/26/02 02:19:55 GMT |
|
Drifts: Gator, The drift is use to shape the eye for a particular handle shape. In many cases the eye is just punched and used in the punch shape OR the punch is used to support the eye. Often a common round punch is used to make the hole and then the drift used to shape it. Drifts are sometimes left in the piece while shaping areas around the eye but I think it is best not except in some very flat eyes like some axes. Most smiths make their own eye drifts but currently Kayne and Son has a tommahawk drift made by Grant Sarver in their catalog. |
| - guru - Tuesday, 11/26/02 02:27:31 GMT |
|
Average Day for a Blacksmith: I doubt there IS such a thing for anyone except production smiths. In a general shop you may be working on a railing job for a month, take a day to fix the grill for an antique Jeep and then go back to work on the rail. The next day you may be welding hardfacing on a power shovel bucket and after that repairing or replacing dies on your power hammer. And when that rail is finished you may be out in the field installiing it while working over a polished black marble floor. . . The shops I have worked in we spent a LOT of time toting measuring and sawing steel. . . moving heavy machinery and setting it up. . building fixtures for a job. . toting coal and welding gas cylinders. Then there is the schleping. Tools into the truck, tools out of the truck, tools into the yard, tools into the back shop. Or the gofering. Gofer a box of welding rods in the AM and then gofer bolts in the PM. Gofer a drill bit and a file the next day and then gofer some lunch. . . Gofer a load of steel. . . Hmmmmm well a most typical day is toting, schleping and gofering. Then there is the scrounging and the hunting and of course on weekends the flea markets where you hunt haggle tote and schlep. |
| - guru - Tuesday, 11/26/02 02:47:30 GMT |
|
Silversmiths in the 1700's made exactly all the same things silversmiths make today. Except for electric motors to power small machines and buffing equipment it was not much different. |
| - guru - Tuesday, 11/26/02 02:48:58 GMT |
|
Power Hammer with two Cylinders Yep, Caleb, you have described a self contained hammer (See Nazel and Striker). There are some serious engineering issues. One, you cannot constantly recirculate the air. It will get very hot and eventually the machine will desiel (hot air and oil). Then there is the valving. It is pretty complicated to setup. |
| - guru - Tuesday, 11/26/02 02:53:47 GMT |
|
Swedish Anvil Gregor, if the plate really IS 3/4" then grinding to clean up is the best way to rework the top. You may be surprised how shallow those really terrible looking placed are. And it does not hurt to leave a FEW marks rather than grind a lot extra off the anvil. |
| - guru - Tuesday, 11/26/02 02:57:00 GMT |
|
Ring: Matthew, you can also look here (www.riogrande.com) They have all the materials and tools you would need. I say go for it! Depending on how you go, you might spend as much on tools as you would on buying the ring, but odds are that you will enjoy the tools more than the ring. Grin! Even if it doesn't turn out like you planned, you will gain some skills and hopefully have some fun. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. First thing though is to figure out a design. The design dictates processes and materials. Caleb, the weight driven blower sounds interesting. Send pictures when you have that part! Jock, I've been building and playing with burners again and had another thought. An exhaust analyzer would be a relatively easy way to judge burner efficiency on an atmospheric burner. Wouldn't have to measure air in. |
| - Tony - Tuesday, 11/26/02 04:52:00 GMT |
|
Power Hammer with two Cylinders: Sorry Guru, but that idea was put forth by Dodge. I plead inocent, but we all have our days where the helter-skelter takes hold. I have always had a prefrence for the wooden helve hammers design, with an added(by me as far as I know) control supplied by a movable counter balance. I should built a light scale model of one to use as a striker. . . |
| Caleb Ramsby - Tuesday, 11/26/02 05:26:48 GMT |
|
Power Hammer with two Cylinders Although this is not my idea. . . I feel I have some type of bizzare obligation to defend(?) it. One possible way to aleviate the over heating situation would be to use a radiator to expell some of the trouble-some heat produced. Although one would just be throwing away energy that cost money to produce. . . on the other foot, it would be suplementing the heating system of the work place at the same time. I am sure there are many other solutions that need to be devised for problems that I am ignorant of. . . so I shall relinquish this particular discourse to its original propagator(Dodge, this means you). |
| Caleb Ramsby - Tuesday, 11/26/02 05:49:49 GMT |
|
Re: two air cylinders I'm not that easily discouraged :)My intrest in the twin air cylinder PH is mainly in saving space. The reasoning for a slip clutch is so that the drive cycinder would only be active when the hammer cylinder was working. Thought that might reduce the problem of overheating the air. Another thought I had (keeping in mind that I'm still in the brainstorming process) was: What about nitrogen charging like they do with racecar tires to keep them from overheating? Or am I misunderstanding the use in that case? Thanks again- Dodge |
| Dodge - Tuesday, 11/26/02 05:53:24 GMT |
|
Caleb; Your design sense makes up on exuberance, what it lacks in elegance Good BS score today..Bought a set of 4' sheetmetal rolls ,most of a 25# hawkeye helve hammer, 2 mid sized post vises. some line shaft stuff, a giant flat belt drill press and a fair sized wall mount hand crank drill press a 3' bellows,plus misc for about $350 today...Hope to actually get the time to unload it sometime..sigh. |
| - Pete F - Tuesday, 11/26/02 06:02:48 GMT |
|
I am 22 and trying to learn as much about nlacksmithing as I can. I am completely confused about tool steel though. What do all those letters and numbers mean. Thank you very much. Sarah |
| Sarah Chamberlain - Tuesday, 11/26/02 07:00:17 GMT |
|
hello sarah; welcome to the wonderful world of blacksmithing. below are note i have collected over the years. CLASSIFICATIONS AISI - American Iron and *Steel* Institute - general SAE - Society of Automotive Engineers - cars ASTM - American Society for Testing Materials base specs on specific applications Many low carbon and structural steels AISI use a four digit number. The first is the class of alloy specified. 1XXX Carbon steels 2XXX Nickel chromium 3XXX Moybdenum 4XXX Chromium..............etc 2nd number designates the subgroup of the alloy Last two numbers designate the amount of carbon in 0.01%; therefore a 1080 *steel* has 0.8% carbon. STAINLESS STEELS AISI classes these with a three digit number for Stainless 200 series = chromium, nickel, manganese (structure is austenitic) 300 series = chromium and nickel (structure is austenitic) 400 series = chromium only (Structure is ferritic or martensitic) 500 series = low chromium (<12%) Martensitic TYPES OF STAINLESS STEELS 1. Ferritic 2. Martensitic 3. Austenitic TOOL STEELS These are high carbon steel alloys that have been designed to provide wear resistance and toughness combined with high strength. Water Hardened tool steel - (W grade)high carbon plain carbon steels Cold worked tool steels - (O for Oil, A for Air, D for diffused) Shock resisting Tool Steel - (S) High-Speed Tool Steel - (T for tungsten based and M for molybdenum based) Hot-Worked Tool Steels - (H) Advantages CAST IRONS Iron carbon with more than 2.11% carbon experience the eutectic reaction during cooling and are known as cast irons. Class 80-50 means tensile strength is 80ksi and yield is 50ksi 1. GRAY IRON - is the least expensive and the most common variety. Typical ranges of carbon are 2.5% to 4% . with 91-94% iron elongation is around 1% elongation in 2" 2. MALLEABLE IRON - cooling rate is increased. Irregular spheroidal graphite particles in ferrite or pearlite matrix. Applications are axle housings, pipe fittings, brake drums. 3. DUCTILE IRON - add magnesium (but only 1 pound per ton!!!) Spheroidal graphite particles in ferrite or pearlite matrix. Applications include valves, pump bodies, crankshafts, gears. terry l. ridder ><> |
| terry l. ridder - Tuesday, 11/26/02 10:37:15 GMT |
|
hello sarah; another place to look at that will explain the number and lettering schemes is: http://www.primosknives.com/articles/steelcls.htm terry l. ridder ><> |
| terry l. ridder - Tuesday, 11/26/02 10:45:30 GMT |
|
File handles: Another option. Take hunk of old broomstick or just tree branch, drill a 3/16 or so hole in it about 2" deep at the angle you want the file tang to go in, heat the end of the file to black heat with a propane torch (be carefull not to draw temper into the working part of the file), and push the hot file tang into the handle. Burns its way in and sticks well. Resinous wood sticks better. Loose file handles mean bad file control. Being able to angle the handle to the file comes in handy with some work. Saves knuckle skin. The big guy upstairs gives us some useful and comfortably shaped branches for handles. Cheaper too. Less Entropy created. |
| - Tony - Tuesday, 11/26/02 14:30:08 GMT |
|
How to remove the oil can effect from a sheet of 3/4 x 4 x 8 normalized 4130 alloy steel |
| Darryl Frye - Tuesday, 11/26/02 14:48:45 GMT |
|
Numbers and Technical References: Sarah, Everyone working in the metal trades should have a copy of MACHINERY'S HANDBOOK (see our book review page). Although MACHINERY'S is not a complete reference on alloys it explains the SAE/AISI systems and included general and specific heat treating information. MACHINERY'S also includes thousands of other things you need to know in the metals trades. It has detailed information on threads and threading, drilling, riveting and calculations using riveted joints, how to read drawings, conversion factors, melting points. . . . New they are a tad pricy for some folks but they are readily available on the used books sites for around $25. For some 40 years almost all metal shop courses include a class on how to use MACHINERY'S HANDBOOK and students had to have an up to date copy. Thus there are a lot of nearly unused copies on the used book market. If you need more detailed information on alloys because you are doing exotic bladesmithing or running a machine shop then you need detailed references specificaly on metals and heat treating. The two top references are by ASM, ASM Metals Reference Book and Heat Treaters Guide to Ferrous Metals. The pair will cost about $250 and you will almost NEVER find them on the used book market. For links to many of the acronymonious assocations listed in Terry's post see our FAQ's page and the acronyms page titled "Alphabet Soup". For other recommended books see our Getting Started in Blacksmithing article. It has links to reviews of the books mentioned. |
| - guru - Tuesday, 11/26/02 15:42:07 GMT |
|
Oil Can Effect: Darryl, The oil can effect refers to a piece of steel that is not flat and can be mechanicaly popped from being high on one side to being high on the other. Your dimensions indicate a pretty heavy piece of plate. . . The oil-can effect is from the center of a piece of steel being stretched so that it will not set flat. There are two ways to remove it. Both require mechanical deformation. 1) Heat the stretched center of the plate to a red heat, press it flat and then let it cool. Afterwards it will have residual stresses and you may need to heat treat the piece to relax it. Some sort of mishandling while hot probably led to the original distortion so the the methods should be carefully considered. 2) Stretch the outer edge of the plate around the center. To prevent warping this must be carefully done all the way around the perimeter of the plate. This can be done cold on a press with slightly curved faced dies. Preferably they have a very slight taper OR their force center is toward the edge of the work so that they deform the outer edge more than the interior of the work piece. The amount of deformation needed is almost imperceptable. The pressing should proceed alternately on oposite sides of the plate AND alternate axialy. On the clock, 12,6,9,3,7,1,4,10,2,8,5,11. This method will create a little bit of work hardening but less residual stress than heating. Depending on the criticality of the part you may need to heat treat. Then there is one last possibility. IF you have sufficient machining allowance just machine out the hump on the top and then the cup on the bottom carefully clamping the work to not distort it (I would use a surface grinder and alternately grind each face lightly several times). If the part doesn't have a lot of residual stress then it should be flat. But if there are residual stresses it will never be truely flat. |
| - guru - Tuesday, 11/26/02 16:44:13 GMT |
|
Pneumatic Hammers: Whoops. . Dodge, there are self contained hammers and then there are the pneumatic coupled hammers. They had a mechanical drive and clutch that operated a piston inside a cylinder. On the other end of the cylinder there was a piston and die (ram) that did the forging work. A number of manufacturers made these hammers and they were apparently not very sucessful as there are none in operation that I know of. I suspect the reason is that they had trouble with make-up air. If the air or gas leaked out of the cylinder then there would not be enough to operate and the working end would stay retracted. The lack of extant examples is not just a matter of age and the pneumatic cylinders because a LOT of Nazel hammers of the same age are still in operation. For a glimpse of the MANY types of power hammers you should get a copy of Pounding out the Profits. And if he can still be found, Mark Krause has a booklet detailing how to build a self contained hammer. Radiator cooling would not work in a high pressure system. The thick walls necessary would not conduct the heat fast enough for air cooling. You would need a heat exchanger. Inert gas will prevent oil/air detonation but not cure the heating problem. |
| - guru - Tuesday, 11/26/02 17:13:12 GMT |
|
File handles: another good file handle is a golf ball. drill a hole alittle smaler than the tang,then just hit it 1 or 2 times and it's on there. i use thies for my hoof rasp. the ball fits my hand goot and lets me change angle with out moving my hand. |
| zern - Tuesday, 11/26/02 17:25:18 GMT |
|
Aldren Watson's book: "The Village Blacksmith" has been reprinted, had stuff added and was renamed "The Ironworker and Farrier". I think most big bookstores carry it. I still like the original hardcover, just because. |
| Escher - Tuesday, 11/26/02 17:26:00 GMT |
|
Jock, did you forget you have a "pneumatically coupled" hammer on your pages here? JYH. Who made that thing? Grin. |
| - Tony - Tuesday, 11/26/02 18:12:50 GMT |
|
Just curious, not that I'm thinking of making a ring, but wouldn't a laminated steel ring lose the great appearance by rusting? Or does that not happen because of some combination of body chemistry and constant wear? I guess if it was laminated of nickel and stainless layers, it wouldn't rust, but I was under the impression that it was pretty tough to do this with stainless layers. Again, I'm just hoping to make a laminated billet sometime next year, so I sure can't claim any experience or intuition about making a ring... Steve |
| Steve A - Tuesday, 11/26/02 18:28:20 GMT |
|
Steve A: I've been told that the meteorite rings I make do not rust or tarnish as long as the wearer leaves the ring on. (i.e. Swim in the ocean; leave ring on finger; Okay. Swim in ocean; take ring off finger; ring rusts). This info is all second-hand, as I do not wear jewelry (even my own designs -- safty in the shop, and all that). I assume some sort of galvanic reaction with the skin is the cause. FYI: Guru and all. The nickel/iron meteorites I cut (Chinga and Gibeon), cut much like Titanium using a slow speed and heavy chip-load. It's an easy cut, just time consuming. Again, just my $0.02 worth.... |
| Zero - Tuesday, 11/26/02 18:57:26 GMT |
|
My average day in the shop ?? In between school bus runs I layup material, get goodies ready. Do odd painting,weld the pieces to gether, clean off bench (sometimes). Do most of my forging at night, that way the forge has a chance to cool before bed. On the way home from the night run stop in the store for supplies I need for the next day. Plus drink coffee and meet the people that show up. Most days are busy around here. |
| Barney - Tuesday, 11/26/02 19:09:55 GMT |
|
Sorry missed one important item.. Keep the house fire going in the winter. It gets cold up here at night. |
| Barney - Tuesday, 11/26/02 19:10:54 GMT |
|
Pneumatic Hammers, Ooops, I was under the impression that it was a low pressure system, my bad. I do have a few "simple" questions about coal. I use it about once a week at my local meet, but the rest of the time I use wood/charcoal. The size of the coal that we use at the meet ranges from 3/4" to 2" square. It burns alright, but the large size makes it difficult to admit/retrieve work from the fire without disturbing it greatly. I have read in many references about the use of "pea" sized coal, in both blacksmithing and furnace usage. If the coal is broken down into pea sized pieces is there a risk of loosing a lot of coal to the grate? Or is this just a matter of enough silica and a properly packed fire? With the big chunks we use I find it difficult to get a properly packed fire, I think this is because of the lack of a suffecient surface area to mass ratio(I.E. big crevices in the fire). Also when they get the coal for me to test at home, would breaking it on a wooden surface with a wooden mallet, outside, reduce the risk of the dust exploding enough? Another question I have is about mounting a "coal cooker" in the hood above the fire. I am invisioning an enclosed "troth" that would be adhered to the inside of the hood at an angle. The size would be about 6" X 6" X 1 1/2'. The downhill side(towards blacksmith) would have a verticaly sliding "gate" which would let the coked coal out. The uphill side would have an opening 6" x 6" on the top and a closed back. This is where the gases would escape and the green coal would be admited. I have a few worries, one is that when the downhill gate was opened to take out some of the coked coal, all of the "fresh" air admited would suddenly ignite the gases being cooked off of the coal! The other is that there would be a significant deposit of clinkers that would run down the hill and slop all over the forge but at least it wouldn't be inside the fire pot. Do you think that leaving the bottem grate open a bit to induce a small draft of inderect exhaust from the fire would keep the flash potentail down or just burn up all of the potential coke? Pete, I have often been known to utter, "So many ideas. . . so little sanity.". |
| Caleb Ramsby - Tuesday, 11/26/02 19:27:43 GMT |
|
Interesting.......Meteorites named after an old Mexican expletive.Mebbe that's what an old Mexican started to say when one landed on him. (Grin) Whaddaya think, Frank? Tres Perros |
| - 3dogs - Tuesday, 11/26/02 19:29:42 GMT |
|
I am looking for a suitable plan to build an old fashioned forge. I need to know a good way to get it hot enough to melt steel and iron and the sort. If anyone has a good design for an entire forge area, please email it to me at OrangeCrusher544@msn.com with dimensions, blueprints, and approx. costs if at all possible! Thanks! |
| Orange Crusher - Tuesday, 11/26/02 19:31:09 GMT |
|
Follow-up on my previous post, I need to know what kind of bricks to use and what I should make my bellows out of. I may be old fashioned, but I don't have the money for some awesome furnace or pneumatic hammer. Also, if anyone knows where I can get tungsten-carbide in large amounts, as well as titanium, and if its possible to alloy the three, I'd appreciate that as well. Thanks! |
| Orange Crusher - Tuesday, 11/26/02 19:33:56 GMT |
|
I actually have the Machinery's handbook. I took 3 years of welding in highschool. And 1 year pre-employment at SIAST (Saskatchewan Institute of Applied Sciences and Technology). But I still couldn't figure out the #'s. Thank you for all your help it makes sence now. |
| Sarah Chamberlain - Tuesday, 11/26/02 19:38:32 GMT |
|
Jock and Others, Thanks for your help on my self contained/pneumatic hammer idea. You've raised enough questions in my mind to steer me away from air and back to toggle mechanics ;)But thats what brainstorming and R&D are all about. Right? Thanks again. -Dodge |
| Dodge - Tuesday, 11/26/02 19:42:45 GMT |
|
Pneumatic EC-JYH Tony, Nope, I didn't forget. And probably for some of the same reasons as I mentioned it won't be a commercial success. Bow spring and toggle is the simplest linkage that produces a faster velocity than the crank input and is probably the best for simplicity if you want a hard hitting mechanical hammer. I DO have a design for a rubber band hammer that could be VERY promising. |
| - guru - Tuesday, 11/26/02 20:30:29 GMT |
|
Alloy Numbers Sarah, MH has the break down on how the old SAE numbers work if you look for it. New systems no longer code the alloy/carbon content and are pretty worthless for practical discussions. I think many of the "How to Use MH" classes drive folks away from the book. I grew up reading it from when I was 11 years old. . . (OK, I am weird). But it is a WONDERFUL reference if you take time to study it and remember you have it. I'll admit there are sections I have not read. . but I have not read my entire encylopedia Britanica either. I suspect the many pages of log and trig tables (rather archaic today) and lack of pictures turn some folks off. But it is the second most useful tool in the shop. What is the #1 most useful tool? Hint, everyone has one but many folks don't know how to use it. |
| - guru - Tuesday, 11/26/02 20:38:28 GMT |
|
hello; given that hint the answer is obvious. their brain. ;-) terry l. ridder ><> |
| terry l. ridder - Tuesday, 11/26/02 20:51:49 GMT |
|
Old Fashioned: Orange C, In this business almost everything is OLD. . . Forge designs start from holes in the ground and progress to synthetic fibre insulated things with high tech ceramic coatings. Refractory lined gas forges have been made for over 50 years. . so how old is old? Melting steel is not normally done in a forge. If you melt steel in a forge it is usualy also burned up. Forges DO get that hot but you normally want them just shy of the melting temperature of steel. Forges are for heating metal to the plastic state for forging. Melting is done in a coupla or a crucible furnace. Tungten-carbide is known as a refractory metal or a ceramic. It is not alloyable with other metals. Normally it is used as a powder that is sintered (glued together) with cobalt. You can often purchase old AND new carbide inserts by the barrel from machine shop sales. Ti can be alloyed with many other metals but there are limits to the ranges that work. Going into the exotic metals alloying business is a big deal and VERY technical. You have a few years of studying to do before you will be ready for that. I recommend you do a BUNCH or reading before you launch into whatever it is you want to do. If it is blacksmithing, see our Getting Started article. |
| - guru - Tuesday, 11/26/02 20:56:35 GMT |
|
Nope, the air spring wouldn't be a commercial success. But a rubber band??? grin. Didn't Grant do that? The air spring does result in hammer speed faster than the crank speed though. I really should get a good belt on that thing and run it again. On second thought, I should just do the Nazeloid. Much better idea. |
| - Tony - Tuesday, 11/26/02 21:03:11 GMT |
|
Watson's Village Blacksmith: Frank: I'd penciled in the correction on the temper colors on my copy, just 'cause it would drive me nuts. I do not think it has been corrected in subsequent editions. I'll check it out at the bookstore tomorrow or Friday. (Private missive being sent via P.O.) Journeyman: Benefits? For a 20th/21st century historical reenactnment village or for the original village? In the 21st century, there's nothing like a blacksmith to pull in the marks, er, public. The clang of the anvil, the glow of the fire and the magic of transforming the metal hooks them every time. At the Richmond Celtic Festival I had a crowd whenever I fired up. In terms of educational value, the subject is endless. When you explain how Early American economies worked, and the amount of work involved; the difference between bespoke work and production work; the foundations of the industrial revolution and the movement from muscle power to water power to steam power to electrical power... Hey, I'm good for an hour, at least! One thing we did try at Richmond, after I creaked my elbow (again!) is to have one person interpret and answer questions while the others worked. It worked very well, and would have worked better if the crew wasn't a tad green. Historically, the blacksmith was the key member of industry and agriculture, making and mending and doing whatever was needed to keep the folks at their jobs... That's good for another hour! Others will throw their two cents, once you define your question a little closer. Visit your National Parks: www.nps.gov Go viking: www.wam.umd.edu/~eowyn/Longship/ |