WELCOME to the anvilfire Guru's Den - V. 3.3
THIS is a forum for questions and answers about blacksmithing and general metalworking. Ask the Guru any reasonable question and he or one of his helpers will answer your question, find someone that can, OR research the question for you.

This is an archive of posts from November 8 - 15, 2007 on the Guru's Den
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Psykotika: In a material that can be both cast and forged, there is generally a finer and stronger microstructure within the material after forging than in the cast state. With regard to "folding" steel, The current actual process is drawing the material out to a great length, then cutting that length ino shorter sections that are stacked and forge welded into a single chunk, and repeating to get the desired number of layers. The result if different alloys are used is that the material can be twisted and re forged, and after finishing, it can be etched and there will be a pattern formed by the differing alloys. This is of no practical value, but has an astetic apeal. For greatest strength use a modern high strength alloy, mess with it as little as possible and have it professionally heat treated.
   - Dave Boyer - Wednesday, 11/07/07 22:37:00 EST
Harley: I've only seen the KA-75 demonstrated. Essentially, as named, it acts as a substitute for a striker. Friend in area has one. When I was there he was making a flame effect on the ends of gate finials. He forged out the shape on his powerhammer, then used the KA-75 with dies to put in the curves in one blow.

All I have seen them operated on was small portable compressors. Quickly run out of oomph. Don't know how one would do for forging on a large shop compressor.
   Ken Scharabok (Poor Boy Blacksmith Tools) - Thursday, 11/08/07 02:23:54 EST
Thanks Ken,
With that in mind I guess I will need to see some videos and gather more input on the KA 75. So lets see...takes up less space than a large PH , is useable with a smaller compressor (allready in the shop) or build a Kinyon style hammer, dish out $$ for a much larger compressor (which will an advantage to other needs in the shop). What is a poor hoby smith to do .............
   Harley - Thursday, 11/08/07 03:46:22 EST
Question about Pure Iron:

Thank you for responding to my question on pure iron.

When you say .008%, do really mean eight one-thousandth's of one percent? Let's say for example we had a quantity of 1,000,000 marbles. 10% of the whole would be 100,000 marbles. 1% of the whole would 10,000 marbles. If that 1% (10,000) was divided into 1,000 pieces, 1/1000 would equal ten marbles. Then 8/1000's or .008% would equal 80 marbles. Am I understanding you correctly there? Out of every 1,000,000 iron atoms, we would have 80 carbon atoms? I wonder if that could be put into geographic terms to more easily visualize that.

If that is correct, it might be that this level of purity would be adequate for my purposes. In this application we are looking at the behavior of iron under certain conditions, and would like to eliminate as much as possible any behavioral characteristics associated with other elements.

In regards to another thing you (the Guru) said, I would like to better understand what is the difference between pure iron at .008% carbon content, and .008% carbon steel? You seem to be drawing a distinction there, but .008% carbon steel, appears (to me) to be the same thing as iron with .008 carbon content. I thought the definition of steel, is simply iron with some carbon in it. Is that the same thing, or is there a nuance there that I am missing?

If it is the case that those who make this European .008% carbon content iron, do not, in fact, make 4 inch square bars that can be cut into the cube I need, is there any technical problem with purchasing an appropriate quantity of smaller stock and having them simply melt it down and pour it into a 4 inch cubicle mold? Doesn't the low carbon content make it melt easier, i.e. at a lower temperature?

Thank you for your time.
   Steven - Thursday, 11/08/07 06:24:07 EST
Steven,

We need our resident metallurgist, Quenchcrack, to deal with this more thoroughly . I have seen a printout on the European "Pure Iron", and there are many elements in it other than carbon and silicon; they are, however, in trace amounts. Sometimes iron, as iron, is made in small amounts for chemical and physical study in laboratories. Armco Steel, now under another name, used to make "zero carbon iron" for enameling purposes. Initially, it was made into vessels, glass enamel lined, to handle acids and caustic materials.

It is not so simple to melt already made iron or steel and pour it. You're dealing with flux, slag, and "atmospheric attack", especially by oxygen. Cast iron is pourable, because it has the right composition, a high carbon content, and the carbon becomes a mechanical mix of graphite in the final cast product. Cast iron is definitely not pure iron, but a whole other ball of wax.

   Frank Turley - Thursday, 11/08/07 08:08:00 EST
Steven, I am still unclear on the concept. Yes, your .008% analogy is correct. However, having low carbon steel (or iron) does not imply high purity. What about all the other elements that are common residuals? I refer to Mn, S, P, Si, Cr, Mo, Ni, Cu, Zn, Sn, O2, H2, N, etc. Commercially produced "steel" is made from either scrap iron or iron ore. The BOF steel made from iron ore will have lower residuals but it will not be pure. To get a "pure" iron, it needs to be processed by zone-refining under a vacuum. I hope you have a BIG government grant for this project because this degree of purity will break the bank for most research projects.
   quenchcrack - Thursday, 11/08/07 09:06:48 EST
Steven, just a thought here. Try contacting a company that sells calibration standards for spectromenters. I am sure they do not have one 4" square but they might have some pure iron samples that could do.
   quenchcrack - Thursday, 11/08/07 09:43:38 EST

IRON

Iron and Melting Temperatures: As carbon increases the melting point decreases. Pure iron melts at around 2800°F and high carbon steel about 2600°F and cast iron as low as 2200°F The high carbon also increases fluidity greatly which makes cast iron easier to cast.

Pouring Iron: When casting a high temperature melting metal there is a huge amount of shrinkage upon solidification. This can produce a hollow that extends from the sprue to nearly the end of the casting called a "pipe". Preventing this or closing the pipe is what a great deal of modern steel manufacturing is about.

It is possible to crucible melt pure iron with a flux cover in a sealed crucible and slowly let it cool to produce a tight ingot or "button". This requires a round bottomed crucible. Afterwards the button could be forged or cut to the desired shape. Note however that iron tends to crystallize in some bizarre ways and the results may not be as solid as you might think. R&D may be required to get your sample. . .

Carbon and Alloy Steels: Technically any carbon makes iron a "carbon steel". A high carbon steel only has 1% carbon and medium carbon (spring and durable tool steels) .60%. High strength structural steels have .20% to .35% carbon. Special low carbon steels have .08% carbon and it is difficult to obtain lower carbon steels. So when you speak of steel with less than .01% carbon it is STILL a carbon steel. In fact the people that work "pure iron" or "double ought" low carbon steel with. .008% carbon can tell the difference between working it and working wrought iron which has much less carbon.

The confusion is in the product sold as "pure iron" which in fact is just a very low alloy steel.

Many ingredients in steel at .01% and less effect the way steel behaves. Almost all steel has some silicon, most modern steels some manganeses. The cleanest steels made with scrap include lead, copper, aluminium. . . in traces but even at .005% or less they effect the quality of the steel. So while this percentage may seem VERY low it is significant in steel making. AND all those small percentages add up to something more than thousandths of a percent AND do effect the properties of the steel (ductility, corrosion resistance, weldability).

Blacksmiths often deal with nearly pure iron in the form of wrought iron. This is an ancient product that is no longer made commercially. It IS made by a few researchers. Wrought is pure iron or very low carbon iron with inclusions of silica slag (remains of ore and flux). In processing wrought these inclusions are drawn out into thin layers between bands of pure iron. When wrought corrodes is has a wood like grain structure that is often quite obvious. This is the material that smiths can tell the difference in how it feels and works under the hammer compared to .008% carbon steel.

However, when wrought is processed further the layers or bands of silica nearly disappear and you have a nearly homogeneous silicon iron (.015 to .005% silicon) OR you just have scaled down wrought with very very thin layers of iron with even thiner layers of silica slag. When this corrodes you often cannot distinguish it as wrought from the grain.

Your Purpose: A 4" cube of chemically pure elemental iron is a very large sample. Purity is also something that must be defined and specified for the purpose. IF you need absolutely pure laboratory grade iron the best I know of is only 99.95% pure vacuum deposition grade and is supplied by Cerac Advanced Specialty Inorganics. 18.2 pounds (8258 grams) in 3 to 12 mm pieces was priced at about $1000 in 1991. The only available other available forms were smaller screened pieces and near powder at that time.
   - guru - Thursday, 11/08/07 09:55:53 EST
KA-75, Harley, I was looking into one once upon a time, and a smith (I would rather not say his name in a public forum, email me if you want to know who it was) I really respect and consider a bit of a mentor suggested that there are better choices out there that I would be happier with.
   JimG - Thursday, 11/08/07 10:58:23 EST
Harley,

You might ought to actually try one out before deciding one way or the other. If you call Bob Bergman, the seller of the KA-75, he might be able to point you to someone in your area who has one you could try.

Nathan Robertson, a friend of mine who makes very desirable hammers and lots of them, uses a KA-75 for his work. He does enough that he has worn one out and purchased another to replace it. Apparently, he really likes the machine.

My preference is for a power hammer, because I like the reciprocating blows for continuous whacking away. I can still get single hits when I want them, so it does what I want. Cost me about a grand and a half to make mine, significantly less than a purchased unit of any type. That's figuring my time at about a buck an hour, of course. :-)

Just some more for you to consider.
   vicopper - Thursday, 11/08/07 11:19:12 EST
Pure Iron: micro alloying of steel does seem to have a disporportionate effect on it's properties from what I have read.

To get a chunk that size of very high purity you will probably have to buy smaller sizes and melt it in a vacuum using induction heating. Of course such a cube will then probably end up with very large grain size as you try to deal with shrinkage by slow cooling. You will also get a sort of zone refining effect from very slow cooling as well; unfortunately all the "trash" will be in the center.

(Interesting to note that when AT&T signed the First consent decree and threw open all of their previous patents including the one for the transistor, the one for zone refining wasn't included as it was granted minutes after the decree went into effect. Zone refining was the only commercial method at that time of making Si pure enough for transistors.)

Thomas
   Thomas P - Thursday, 11/08/07 12:19:31 EST
Even melting pieces of high purity iron at home or in the lab without the vacuum will result in high levels of atmospheric components like O2, H2, H2, and N. Observe that Nitrogen is next to carbon on the periodic chart and has similar effects on iron, though not as significant. Perhaps NIST has such material for sale.
   quenchcrack - Thursday, 11/08/07 12:23:03 EST
Thomas, we had a zone refining set-up in our physical metallurgy lab at CSM in 1966. We never got to play with it, though. It was a toy for the Grad Students only. You are correct in observing that the result of this process is a cast, not wrought, structure.
   quenchcrack - Thursday, 11/08/07 12:28:07 EST
I have some of the short, weld-on trailor axles that they sell at northern tool. I'm thinking of making hammers out of these pieces. Does anyone have advice or experience with this steel? Have you made tools w/it and heat-treated it maybe? Thanks
   mark harrington - Thursday, 11/08/07 12:54:17 EST
I beg to differ with the Guru about the carbon content of wrought iron. It can vary significantly depending on how it was made and who made it, but it's always there. The silicate slag and the stringy structure of the iron is what gives it that buttery feel under the hammer. I know of two samples of wrought iron from different sources that somebody had analysed, and they both came in at about 0.2% carbon. Basically 1020 steel in micro-rod form, mechanically admixed with iron silicate glass.
   Alan-L - Thursday, 11/08/07 13:39:15 EST
Harley,
The KA75 does have it's points (mostly what you've mentioned) small size in a small shop is a big help I'd suppose. If you decide to go with a bigger hammer, get thee to equipment auctions of some or all sorts. We picked up an big IR T30 compressor for pocket change at the last one we went to (still getting that set up by the way, a metal shaper fell into my lap and the compressor got bumped on the list). One of the local smiths around my area has a KA75 (she also has a 25lb LG for drawing work). It does work nice for what it's meant to do. She's also running off of a relatively decent sized compressor (50 gallon, 5 or 6 HP IIRC). The extra tank capacity seems to be the big benefit with that hammer as she can use it in a pinch for continuous blows. Myself, I've decided to either save up for a Phoenix or Big Blu, OR to build the hammer that I've been brainstorming on for a while now.... gonna call it Frankenhammer. However, raising the tower above the shop, installing the massive lightning rods, and building ten foot Jacob's ladders is the big obstacle I'm hitting right now :)

-Aaron @ the SCF
(And no... the shaper didn't literally fall into my lap. That would hurt.)
   thesandycreekforge - Thursday, 11/08/07 13:58:18 EST
Can you rejuvenate fatigued spring steel? Is there a way to add Silicone and reheat treat this steel to give it it's original properties. I'm asking for the purpose of giving
an antique watch spring new life.

Thanks
   Al Dippel - Thursday, 11/08/07 14:00:00 EST
www.pureiron.co.uk/ These guys sell "Pure Iron" they say it is minimum 99.8% pure they have an analysis of other elements on their web site. They sell 3" billet which could be upset to 4" with a reasonably large hammer.
   - JNewman - Thursday, 11/08/07 14:31:10 EST
A couple of days ago I mentioned Milwaukee Tool & Equiment Company sold blacksmithing tools and equipment. Received a price list from them today. O'h My God!!! (Rounding prices) Cast steel anvils $10 lb and up. 4 1/2" leg vise $2,300 - 6" - $2,700. Swage blocks from $530 - $7.400. Bottom swages $140. Top swages $170. Flatters from $170 to $180. Tongs $120 - $140 each.

Believe I'll pass.

If you want a copy of their blacksmithing catalog I can e-mail forward you a copy. (scharabo@aol.com)
   Ken Scharabok (Poor Boy Blacksmith Tools) - Thursday, 11/08/07 14:53:56 EST
High Priced Tools: This is the same as books that Amazon does not stock and the publisher does not give them a discount due to their paperwork and slow pay. They just take the LIST price plus a cost to handle ordering and shipping then multiply those costs by TWO. The new price is

NONSTOCK PRICE = 2 x (list +15%)

THEN you wait for them to order the book (or tool) and re-ship to you. Many suppliers do this as a "service" to their customers that do not want to go out and shop for the item themselves. If you take Kayne's or Centaur Forge's prices and double the delivered cost plus a handling fee those are the prices you get.
   - guru - Thursday, 11/08/07 15:21:57 EST
Spring Steel: Al, Truly fatigued springs are usually full of fine cracks and cannot be saved. Springs that have just been overloaded, "taken a set", or been bent out of shape can be re-arced (bent back into shape). However, prior to re-arcing a spring it should be cleaned and inspected for cracks. A magnetic crack test can be run or a die penetrant test. On steel with many fine cracks the die penetrant test is often best. Look up "Magnaflux" for the products to do this testing. If the spring is crack free then simply but it into a press and bend it back to shape. These processes may be difficult to perform on a small spring.

There is no such thing as realloying a part. Reheat treatment is not recommended unless it was wrong in the first place.
   - guru - Thursday, 11/08/07 15:27:31 EST
I went to the 3W.puriron.co.uk site and while it is very low in residual elements, it is not really chemically pure. The level of residuals in their product would have a measureable affect on the physical properties of Iron.
   quenchcrack - Thursday, 11/08/07 17:22:05 EST
I think it's important to remember that the terms for ferrous metals are generally artifacts of history, and often relate as much to the process by which a product made as to its chemistry or physical properties. It took me years to figure out that the difference between malleable and ductile iron had nothing whatsoever to do with the distinction between malleability and ductility (not that I understand the subtle difference between those properties anyway). There are things you can figure out, and then there are things you just have to learn.
   Mike BR - Thursday, 11/08/07 18:53:59 EST
Thanks to all who chimed in on the KA 75. I have the plans for the Kinyon hammer. Muskettforge has built one and I have tried it out. I may just go that route. In the long run bigger IS better and a larger compressor will be a welcome addition to the shop. This will just take a bit longer to accomplish. What is that old saying ? Ah yes......Good things comr to thoes who wait.
   Harley - Thursday, 11/08/07 19:09:37 EST
My work has halted basically because I'm out of materials for this week. What do you guys find to be more economical in the long run, a charcoal forge or a propane one? Keep in mind that since I live in a fairly populated city I buy all of my charcoal from department stores in 8lb bags for about $9.
Also is kaowool really necessary or could I make the forge entirely out of adobe?
   Nabiul Haque - Thursday, 11/08/07 19:34:50 EST
Wrought Iron. I have forged my share of it, including a small stock of Swedish charcoal iron that I have, and I have never found it to feel buttery soft under the hammer, nor have I found it easier to forge weld than mild steel. However, I read these things all the time.
   Frank Turley - Thursday, 11/08/07 19:55:38 EST
What is way scraping? I have heard of "scraping the ways". Why and how is this done. Thanks, JM
   Jason M. Mecum - Thursday, 11/08/07 20:29:40 EST
Nabiul; my double burner aspirated propane "pipe" forge uses less than a gallon of propane an hour---I can run a 6 hour class with the forge on the whole time and still have some propane left in the BBQ sized tank. So you can check with the local refill place (tank swapping at a store is much more expensive!) to see how much per hour a similiar system would run you.

Note you will want to keep your charcoal forge to do bits that won't fit in a standard propane forge set-up

Using adobe as the liner/insulator would quickly drive the price of using propane past where you could have bought kaowool and used it and been much happier with it!

Thomas
   Thomas P - Thursday, 11/08/07 20:32:40 EST
Pure Iron:

Perhaps buttery is in the eye of the beholder.

My thanks to Frank, quenchcrack, guru, Thomas, Alan, JNewman for taking the time to give me some useful feedback on my question. I see several leads in there that I can follow up. And a lot more to think about. And probably some more questions.

I certainly have a new appreciation for the fact that making pure iron might be far more difficult than making pure water.

Though I also see that those who have chosen to intertwine their lives with iron, appear to be, as a group, wise, helpful, and humble.


   Steven - Thursday, 11/08/07 20:34:00 EST
or should I say iron and fire.
   Steven - Thursday, 11/08/07 20:35:45 EST
like the center of the earth.
   Steven - Thursday, 11/08/07 20:38:21 EST
Jason Mecum,

Scraping of ways is done to the ways of machine tools. The ways are the surfaces that tool carriages, cross slides, supports and centers move on, and must be perfectly flat, perfectly parallel and dead level for the machine to produce accurate work. Rough machining is done first in the manufacturing process to get a generally "true" surface, and then scraped by hand to get it perfect. When a machine tool is moved, it must be leveled with a precision level to get the ways in a perfect plane. After that, it may be necessary to scrape the ways in spots to correct slight imperfections or to correct damage done during moving.

Hand scraping of machine ways is an even more "lost" art than blacksmithing. Fifty years ago, there were a goodly number of men who had the skill to scrape ways properly. Nowadays, there might possibly be as many as ten in the U.S. Times have changed.
   vicopper - Thursday, 11/08/07 21:11:12 EST
Does anyone know a good and accurate/precise way to test for the amount of carbon in a sample of metal? I have a VERY basic chem lab setup to do stuff with.
Also, tahnks for all the help you all have been, and does anyone mind if I quote them and give them credit in the presentation I am putting together for my expirement?
   - chem geek - Thursday, 11/08/07 22:05:44 EST
Scraping and Scrapers: See this iForge demo for some details.

Before precision grinders the ways and running surfaces of machine tools where made perfectly flat by scraping and bluing (using a precision flat and Prussian blue paint). The flats themselves were made by hand as well bluing in and scraping using three different surfaces against each other alternately until they blued perfectly and would wring together (hold together from atmospheric pressure when touched together). These flats were then used to test the surfaces of part being made either by hand or machine.

After surface grinders scraping was used to put on a "chipped" surface that had a sort of checker board effect from scraping at different angles. I is thought that the semi random direction of the fine scratches on the surface held oil better and reduced wear. It DEFINITELY shows when the surface is wearing. . . I have also seen chipped finishes put on by the ignorant that RUINED machine tools.

Besides flat surfaces it is still common to scrape and fit cylindrical bearing journals on large machinery. This is particularly common on babbitt bearings due to their softness and difficulty in machining a fine finish on babbitt.
   - guru - Thursday, 11/08/07 22:12:58 EST
Fuel Costs: In general the market keeps various fuels somewhat in line with each other. Those that have used both real charcoal and propane and coal in commercial quantities claim the fuel costs are similar and there is little advantage to changing from one to another. As oil costs skyrocket other fuel suppliers including charcoal will raise their price. It is called the world fuel price.

However, there ARE cost advantages to different fuels. IF you tend your solid fuel fire well and do not let it get too big and do not let it burn up extra fuel when you are done then it can be VERY efficient. Solid fuel forges also allow you to have a very small fire OR a very large fire in the same forge so there is an efficiency there.

Solid fuel forges are also easier to forge weld in and generally require less maintenance.

Gas (propane OR NG) forges require the same amount of fuel to do large work as to do small work in a given forge. So small work is VERY inefficient in a large gas forge. To be fuel efficient you need to have different forges for different size work. So there is an equipment (and space) expense to remain efficient. Gas forges also work better when up to a good preheat and then kept there so they are most efficient in all day use. They are MUCH more efficient for heating billets or bars to feed a power hammer than a solid fuel forge that needs constant fire maintenance.

The refractories used in gas forges tend to fail over time and need to be replaced and the light weight refractories are prone to attack by flux and scale. So maintenance is an issue with gas and oil forges.

SO, for the smart hobbiest a solid fuel forge is the cheapest to run and maintain. However, a gas forge with a built in lighter SURE IS convenient and clean to use.
   - guru - Thursday, 11/08/07 22:30:05 EST
Steel Carbon Testing: Chem geek, the best you can do cheaply is the spark test. Obtain a range of samples from pure iron to HSS as a comparison. You should be able to tell within +/-.05% or a little more carbon. You can also detect various alloying ingredients by spark testing. See our review of Metals for Engineering Craftsmen for a spark chart. But I highly recommend comparison testing.
   - guru - Thursday, 11/08/07 22:35:27 EST
Scraping Ways: I would guess there are quite a few more than 10 who actually still do scrape ways. There are companies that rebuild machinery in place, and this is still the way to do it. That "chipped" surface was refered to as "flaked" where I last worked, it does hold oil. My Granddad told of a new machine built without the flaking, and the slide would stick rather than move smoothly. After flaking, it functioned properly. There are air and electric scrapers used as well as the hand tools. Streight edges, surface plates, precision levels and optical devices are among the other tools used for truing ways.
   - Dave Boyer - Thursday, 11/08/07 22:59:24 EST
Mike, in support of your comment, I submit the terms "Marquenching" and "Austempering". C'mon, were clunky, nerdy metallurgists and engineers, not writers, poets or linguists.....these terms are an afterthought I guess.
   quenchcrack - Friday, 11/09/07 09:03:09 EST
Question regarding claying a disc blade and bar stock fire pan and fire grate:

I have fashioned my first coal forge fire pan out of a disc blade and a three inch (width) flat stock rim that a friend helped me weld on. We cut a hole out of the center of the disc blade to seat around the mouth of the blower. For the grate I forged two rings and welded cross bars, all of 1 inch bar stock, that would fit into the blower mouth. When this removable fire grate is installed into the blower mouth at the bottom of the pan it sits about 2.5 inches off the bottom. I was told I should use fire clay to futher protect the bottom of the pan. My question is: should I make the surface level of the clay flush with the top of the grate, or a bit taller so that the grate sits in a depression in the clay? If I did the latter, would the depth of clay cause problems later, say maybe cracking due to uneven cureing as it would have to be roughly 3 inches deep around the fire grate?

Thanks very much for any advice.
   brett - Thursday, 11/08/07 23:34:58 EST
Claying Forges: Brett, there is no need to clay a steel pan forge unless it is very thin steel. Claying was used to prevent thermal shock to cast iron forge pans and in ONE recorded case to produce a firepot shape in a flat bottomed forge. A firepot (depression at forge tuyeer) helps create a more focused controllable fire. The fire is hotter and does not spread so rapidly through the reserve fuel. In a steel forge it is much more efficient and more maintenance free to fabricate a proper firepot.

However, I think you have a serious design problem. The blower should not be attached directly under the tuyeer opening. A LOT of burning fuel, clinker and ash fall down the grate or tuyeer opening in a forge. There needs to be a right angle turn at that point (usually made with a "T") and an ash dump taking advantage of the open leg of the T.

I should probably note on "My First Forge" article that this is a bad idea. The reason I got away with something that LOOKS like it was the forge blower was HUGE and could launch 1" lumps of coal with its blast. It was also not attached under the "firepot". There was so much excess air even when throttled back that air from its 4"x5" outlet would create a good blast through the 2" diameter tuyeer after crossing a 3" gap. Any debris that fell through the tuyeer would be blown to the sides and out of the blower and forge. . .
   - guru - Friday, 11/09/07 09:28:38 EST
Brett,

You're making a version of the old, round riveters' forge. The tuyere (air entry grate) on the old ones was flush with the bottom of the hearth. There was no firepot. To go ahead with your plan, I would weld the tuyere grate flush with and under the disc's central hole where you can't see it from above. If you weld it above and line it, I think you'll lose some of the dish shape of the disc. I'll let someone else chime in on what to use for a lining. Fire clay can be a pain and if not cured and "tempered" properly, it cracks. As guru notes, you may not need any lining.

This kind of forge will get you down the trail for a while if you build careful, high banked fires. The hot spot/sweet spot/heart of the fire will be a ways above the tuyere, not on the hearth. You will need to clean your fire from the top, but that is true even with a rotating clinker breaker in a fire pot. Clinker wants to stick to mild steel, so you will be chipping clinker from the grate occasionally. Proprietary clinker breakers (tuyere balls; tuyere valves) are of cast iron, a little less chance of the clinker sticking.

As guru notes above, you should build an ash barrel with perhaps a kicking ash door on the bottom, and with a right angle air entry into the barrel.

If you get serious about smithing with coal, you will eventually get a cast iron fire pot with cast clinker breaker. The firepots are about 4" to 4.5" deep. The British smiths will often use a side blast forge instead of a bottom blast.

   Frank Turley - Friday, 11/09/07 09:50:20 EST
Scraping Ways: Dave, I suspect I got the term "chipped" surface from the fellow that ruined machine tools with his deep chisel cuts. . . As you noted I think "flaked" is the proper term.

Today it is used most often as a final finish but as you noted it is still used for checking and correcting the flatness of more expensive machines and on things that do not fit or cannot be taken back to a large grinder.

In the past it was the final stage in hand making precision surfaces in a process that started with chiseling a finish surface onto a casting, filing and rough scraping flat to the eye, then precision scraping and bluing. These are the techniques developed in the 1700's that carried us into the height of the industrial revolution of the 1800's and were still in use until precision surface grinding of precision machined surfaces came into being.

It is this ingenious system and very hard work by highly skilled laborers that made the machines that made the industrial revolution possible and brought us to where we are today.

As blacksmiths we like to think we were the key to creating it all but it was these chiselers of cast iron that made the machines that replaced the blacksmith for many purposes. . . Of course WE made the chisels and files!
   - guru - Friday, 11/09/07 10:24:40 EST
I have little experience working with copper alloys. However, I am interested in Native American artifacts. I would like to know which copper alloys Native American craftsmen of the 1890's would have used to make, for example, copper medallions? Secondly, if they used an alloy, such as brass or bronze, would such alloys have had different metallic compositions than the alloys used by contemporary White craftsmen? How would they have differed? Finally, would Native Americans have employed different processes to work the metals than those used by their White contemporaries? For instance, would Native Americans have been able to use wood fires to forge bronze or brass? Could they have gotten wood fires hot enough? Or would they have had to use forges just like White blacksmiths of the era employed?
Thanks for the help!
Mark
   - Mark James - Friday, 11/09/07 12:27:16 EST
Mark, I am not expert on this but here are my thoughts.

The northern North American peoples never had a high degree of technology and most of the civilizations that would have supported metal working disappeared by the Colonial period. These folks worked native copper as found in the ground without smelting ore or using heat. You have a stone age society using stone tools to work the softest of native metals. The Mound builders and others that gathered in large numbers would have eventually developed metal technology but did not survive to so so.

The southern North American peoples in Mexico had some metal technology but mostly used native gold and copper. I do not believe they had brass or bronze until after the Spanish conquest.

The blacksmith forge was introduced in the Southwest by the Colonial Spanish in the 1600's.

As soon as European technology was brought to the Americas in the 1500's everything changed and there is no telling who did or knew what. This is a very complicated part of the history of the Americas which was mostly a period of great decline by the native population.
   - guru - Friday, 11/09/07 12:52:05 EST
Guru,
I've been tapering hot rolled round stock down to a fine point for a project. The stock is 3/8 inch and I'm taking it down to a point with the taper being 2.75" to 3". I've run into a problem with the tip splitting. I think it may be because I'm letting the metal cool too much. Or it may be because the center of the stock isn't getting enough heat. What do you recommend to test this hypothesis or is there a simple quick fix that is to obvious for me to see?

Thanks for any help.
Will
   Will - Friday, 11/09/07 13:00:40 EST
Spliting points: Will, There are a number of causes for this. One that you cannot fix is steel with a cold shut OR a shear crack in the center of the bar. This is not common but it does occur.

A common problem is working the point too cold. For long tapers like this you want to forge behind the point first then forge the point. By creating a lump on the end that holds the heat it cools less as it is forged and thus is not worked cold. If you are not working that fast, take a second heat.

A cold shut caused by closing a "fish mouth" is one of the most common problems in forging points. If you start work too close to the point (and OR with a surface heat) a fish mouth forms on the end of the bar. As you draw the point out this closes but is either a hollow or a split. When the point is being finished it opens up.

If you work at too steep an angle when starting a point then a fish mouth almost always occurs. However, what often happens is that as the stock gets smaller the hammering force is proportional greater and the fish mouth is corrected by the stock bulging out. This is the unintentional or accidental "fix" that often lets us get away with bad technique.

To prevent this you want to be sure you have an even heat THEN when you forge the point start back a good distance (two diameters or more) and striking the work nearly flat. IF you are forging correctly the end will bulge OUT instead of IN as in a fish mouth. Once this outward bulge is started the point should continue to grow out of it and not form cold shuts.

IF you are using the heat retention method the fish mouth cold shut problem usually is not an issue.
   - guru - Friday, 11/09/07 13:35:16 EST
I have a hand rail that I am working on that has spans from 94.5 inchs to 129 inches. i need to make a curved top piece but I want all the ends to be at the same hieght where they mount to the wall. How do I figure out the rise for each section and make them all the same arch. I know that I want the lowest part(where it mounts to the wall) to be 36 inches and the tallest part in the center to be 38.5 but with the spans being different I am having trouble with figuring the angle to have them rolled to being that they will be different.
   matt - Friday, 11/09/07 15:38:38 EST
Re pointing: I like to cut the end of the stock at a sharp angle so you don't forge the point out as clean it up and move it to the middle. Really speeds up the process as it's the tip that generally requires the most drawing down.

BTW are you doing the tapers square and then rounding them?

Thomas
   Thomas P - Friday, 11/09/07 15:43:30 EST
Mark James: For the time period you're asking about, the alloys the Native Americans used were the same as the rest of the country. Where do you think they got it? You also need to do some research on nonferrous metalwork; most of it is forged cold and annealed when it work-hardens. This is easily done in a wood fire. I would expect more use of expedient tools for punching, etc. just because of expense and availability.

The Navaho silversmiths are an exception. They borrowed casting technology from the Spanish, using bits of old potsherd as crucibles, charcoal as fuel, and a small hand bellows as blower. They carved molds from tuff, a soft volcanic rock, and cold-hammered the silver on whatever sort of anvil they could find. The silver itself was coin silver, and they preferred Mexican coins because of their higher silver content than American coins. "The Navaho Silversmiths" by Adair is an excellent book on how this all worked.

I'm sure Frank can weigh in on southwestern metalwork traditions as well.
   Alan-L - Friday, 11/09/07 16:35:18 EST
Curves, Arcs, Cords. . : Matt, your word picture is unclear to me. Not sure what you are making and how rise is part of the curve.

Often things like this are easiest done by trial and error. However, a proper scale drawing can reduce the the trial and error to some test drawings and scaled measurements.
   - guru - Friday, 11/09/07 16:48:10 EST
Frank weighing in. I think the topic has been pretty well covered.

From my early anthropological readings, I remembered that shield-like forms that we term "coppers" were made by natives on the coast of British Columbia. Pre-contact coppers have not been found, although they may have been made. After white contact, cleverly made and decorated coppers were made as status symbols.

In the Wisconsin Lake Superior basin, native peoples found copper nuggets in veins and were able to hot and cold
fabricate spear and arrow points 3,000 to 6,000 years ago. I'm not certain that copper was smelted from ores, however.

Gold has been mentioned. Since fine gold does not work- harden and it's found free in nature, the natives of Mexico, meso-America, and South America were able to flatten nuggets and make jewelry and sacred objects.

In southern New Mexico, the Santa Rita mine was opened by the Spanish soon after their occupation of the area. While at the Museum of New Mexico, I curated one of the rawhide ore buckets. It was flat-hoop banded top and bottom with copper hoops, and the rest was bound with rawhide, including rawhide bail and lifting rope. I'm told that they used "chicken ladders" in the mine. These were logs with notched steps cut into one side. Leaning at the proper angle, the steps were horizontal.
   Frank Turley - Friday, 11/09/07 18:53:37 EST
I just wanted to mention something, that is not widely known, that Thomas A. Edison, the inventor of the incandescent electric light (1879) also got into the mining and refining of iron ore in a major way, at the center of which was an electromagnetic separation process, around which he built a massive effort to try to make economical the extraction of low grade iron ores in eastern U.S. mining areas, principally in New Jersey --- attempting to process thousands of tons of ore a day which was a leap ahead of anything anybody else was doing in this area in the 1890's. All the money that he had made up to that point in the establishment of (DC) power generation systems to enable everyone to have electric lights in their homes and businesses --- he was a millionaire many times over --- he poured every penny into this effort to process low grade iron ore in an economical manner.

When it was finally made apparent that the market was not going to cooperate with him, primarily because of the fall in ore prices, because of new discoveries of large deposits of high grade iron ore in the upper Midwest, he had to abandon the effort, with his fortune completely spent, and about $300,000 in debt. The massive rock crushing machines he had designed, and they were huge, which reduced huge boulders to a powdery dust, from which his electromagnets could draw out the iron, was eventually applied to the manufacturing of cement, which proved generally profitable through the 1920's. His fortunes however were primarily recovered through the refinement and manufacture of his phonograph, invented before the electric light, and through the manufacture of his motion picture inventions.

But I thought it was interesting, and might be of interest to the folks here, that when you look at an electric light, you are also looking at a technology, the inventor of which, who was also a big time friend of iron. He gave everything he had to it.
   Steven - Friday, 11/09/07 19:14:02 EST
Thomas P
I'm actually a functional designer not even close to being a blacksmith so it never registered with me to do the tapers square. I guess it would be faster. I did try to cut the ends at a steep angle but I kept running into the same problem. Before the weather drove me inside I had started to taper with the lump on the tip but apparently I was not leaving a large enough mass. In this particular case I have a design reason for forging them round. I'm off setting the center line of the taper so that I get a more graceful arc as I curve them into a hook. I discovered the look one day when I was just working out some styles. Sort of three dimensional doodles.
Thanks for the suggestions.

And thank you, Guru, for your help.
   Will - Friday, 11/09/07 20:58:20 EST
Guru, your advice to Will was spot on, however, wasn't it the practice eons ago to do the point first? With wrought iron's fibrous nature was it more of an issue then?
   Roland - Friday, 11/09/07 21:26:13 EST
Guru,
Just read your comments and advice on fuel costs. The key thing for me is the availability of solid fuel. I have to drive about 45 miles to get a good grade of coal (the source for which I found through this web site) and I have to be there at 7AM before the crews drive their trucks out to make deliveries. With my work schedule I have to be creative in getting this coal. I also use charcoal that I make myself. The cost is in time rather than cash. For simple bending I strike up a nice wood fire. I know that's frowned on by some but it works pretty well for me. Another thing I have to keep in mind is that every so often there are restrictions on burning during droughts. A gas forge would suffer from fewer such restrictions and I'm planning to construct a small one for that reason and the convenience of being able to run down the road to my local hardware store for a tank if I need to.
These are just some things I've been considering as I learn more about metal working.
   Will - Friday, 11/09/07 21:33:02 EST
Pointing Round: If you rotate and try to forge round the effect is like trying to roll a point. The result is internal splitting or tearing of the steel. This in turn results in a split point. Forge square then octagonal then knock off the corners lightly.

   - guru - Friday, 11/09/07 23:20:44 EST
Fuels and Cost Savings: Every situation is different. That coal you are buying would probably cost less overall if you purchased in bulk and let a professional trucker deliver it to you. Less trips, less transportation cost, less lost time. But this takes capital and a storage location.

Real wood charcoal can be purchased. While it may seem expensive it should be a much more efficient use of your time to let someone else do the coaling. YOU are a metal worker with machinery, they are a coaler with a hole in the ground. Your labor rate should be more than enough to allow the coaler some profit and you still be ahead. . .

Smoke of all sorts is a problem in many locations. In high fire risk areas I worry much more about sparks from grinding or torch cutting than the non-existent burning fly ash from coal. However, it is often other's opinions that count. They will also try to shut you down for ANY open flame and may consider a gas forge "open". Better start saving for an induction forge such as the Kaynes sell. Yeah, the white hot steel is a hazard too. . . but no flames getting it that way.

How you look at these things from a commercial standpoint is completely different than as a hobbiest. Ease and convenience are big factors. However, with oil prices DOUBLING in one year due to current "oil" administration policies. . . you had better own your own wood lot to make charcoal because propane is going to go out of sight. . There will be another huge increase in steel prices again soon. If you are looking at heavy steel purchases or saving some old machinery from scrap in the near future you had better do it NOW.
   - guru - Friday, 11/09/07 23:35:10 EST
Forging a point.
One of my students who was also my teacher, Harry Jensen, served a one year apprenticeship in Denmark before the Nazis took over the country. He said that he literally got kicked in the butt by a journeyman for forging behind the point and then towards it. I belive he was working wrought iron, and if so, this enhances splitting. Roland mentions this above.

I always forge the point first, but I make sure that the MIDDLE of the hammer face hits the end of the bar. It's not an edge-to-edge blow. I lift with my holding hand so I get an angle from the anvil as well as the hammer. I forge the point square and somewhat blunt, then work backwards to make the angle more acute and to control the length of the taper. I use forceful, rapid blows, holding the bar end at the far, radiused edge of the anvil. At Turley Forge, we say "S.O.R." for short, meaning square, octagonal, round.

The occasional split can be forge welded if you work quicker than a snake a-strikin'.
   Frank Turley - Saturday, 11/10/07 00:10:37 EST
I forge points the same way Frank talks about. A short, square point first, the lengthen the taper from the point back. On 3/8" round bar, I'd first forge it square with a few quick blows, then make the short point and finally do the taper. Then to octagonal and finally round. Works for me.
   vicopper - Saturday, 11/10/07 00:37:40 EST
I forge most points just as Frank and Rich describe. I seem to remember from a demo, may have been Hofi, that too light blows when forging near the end of the bar, drawing or pointing will cause the dreaded fishmouth just like a surface heat. The outer layer is worked but the inner not as much.
When pointing at the power hammer, I usually do a short square taper, almost a chamfer with the hand hammer first.
   ptree - Saturday, 11/10/07 08:36:34 EST
The dreaded fishmouth.
This often occurs when I'm forging a tool taper under my 25# tripper. I make an allowance for it and crop it. Thence to the grinder/sander.
   Frank Turley - Saturday, 11/10/07 10:01:40 EST
Hello, I was working on I forge project 48, the nail header and the nails. I guess I need to start with square stock, but I was having a dreadful time making the shoulder for the nail head. I got the stock to fit through the hole, but when I tried to flatten the head it just went on through the hole. I guess it just show how inexperience can really foul something up. I did finish one nail after about an hour, and because I could not get the shoulder right, I just bent what was supposed to be the shoulder over at a 90. (but in my defense I started with about half inch re barb, because it was free, so I had a lot of drawing to do. And after to failed attempts I went back to the anvilfire as I was trying to do this from memory, so I also drilled a hole in some stock until I can make a better nail header) It's not pretty but I can hit it with a hammer and the pointy end will go into wood, and for that small success I do not consider it a wasted day. I am still learning how to control the hammer, and the fire. Too many irons in the fire is one for me, I am often burning my iron. any suggestion on the shoulder, the concept looks simple, in I forge, but I am finding that things are a little harder when they are on the anvil, as opposed to the computer (grin). Any suggestions would be most welcome! Thanks
   Sean in China - Saturday, 11/10/07 10:18:57 EST
Now this may be just a bunch of BS, but I have read that the somebody, possibly even the Russians, started to build a telegraph line in Alaska way back in the late 1800's, and that the native americans up there would swipe the copper wire to make stuff with.
None of the Northwest Coast copper work I have seen dates any further back than that era- so it might just be true.
   - Ries - Saturday, 11/10/07 10:33:39 EST
Fish Mouth and Points: Frank, when Grant Sarver setup a friend of mine in the impact bit sharpening business one of the machines needed was a punch press setup as a "nipper" to cut off bad point ends. The cutters were two pieces of high speed steel cutter bit turned on the diagonal so there was two 90° "cutting" edges. For hot cutting this works fine and the edges last a long time. The bits can also be rotated so there are four edges to use. The machine sits next to the power hammer and takes less than a second to use.

This is a good application for old style punch presses.

   - guru - Saturday, 11/10/07 10:52:57 EST
Sean,
Point the nail before shouldering and heading. It helps to point the small stock on the middle/base area of the horn. It can also be done on the anvil face; see posts immediately above. Once you get the point and reasonable taper, you shoulder on two sides only over a relatively sharp edge, giving quarter-turns back and forth, using half-face blows. When you notch it and wring it off, the
head will probably be off center. From the gitgo, the very first blow should be an angle blow to try to center it over the header hole. Use as many blows as necessary. When centered, give a a "three clout" or "four clout" faceted head.

It helps to draw a soapstone or whiteout concentric circle or square around the header hole, so that you can use it as a guide when centering the head.

Next comes the problem of making multiples all about the same length. Make a soapstone or whiteout mark on top of the anvil for practice, say 5/8" from the shouldering edge of the anvil. After pointing and tapering, put the point on that mark each time that you shoulder. Mucho practice!

When driving, a blunt point is less likely to split the wood than a sharp point. Barbs can be put on the nail shank with a cold chisel to help keep it from "outenin". Mild steel nails quenched at a red will harden slightly which helps keep them straight. If it is a clinch nail, let it normalize and drill a pilot hole. In fact, when installing hardware, for instance, use pilot holes for everything. It's embarassing to split a $3000 hand carved door.

   Frank Turley - Saturday, 11/10/07 10:58:33 EST
Sean, I need to make a replacement sketch for a nail header instruction I did a couple years ago. . .

In most books you see the bar tapered, the part notched, the taper stuck in the header and the nail twisted off then headed. . . This sort of works sometime.

In reality you start with larger bar than you need and draw out the nail over the edge of the anvil leaving a rough round shoulder for the head. Then above this you notch, place in the header and twist off. You now have a rough head that just needs five quick blows to finish as a truncated pyramid. The nail should still be loose enough in the header to fall out with a simple tap of the header on the anvil.
   - guru - Saturday, 11/10/07 10:59:58 EST
The nail body should be square, right? Frank, should the quarter turn start on the corner or the flat of the nail? I am sure I am probably making this more difficult than it should be. In time I want them to be the same length, so the chalk line is a great idea. Right now My main concern is getting them to look like a nail instead of a deformed fishing hook!
   Sean in China - Saturday, 11/10/07 11:37:04 EST
The nail shank is square unless it's a horseshoe nail; then it's rectangular, but that's another ball game. The quarter turns are on the flats.
   Frank Turley - Saturday, 11/10/07 12:09:31 EST
Cutting Tools:

Re the Guru's post on cutting with a punch press, the same operation can easily be performed on the power hammer with an appropriate spring cutting tool. The tool is made using two pieces of medium-carbon alloy steel like 4140 or, better yet, S-7 or H-13. The Two cutting heads are forged from pieces about 1/2"x1"x4", with the middle 2-1/2" of one edge beveled to a 90 degree cutting edge. The 3/4" on either side of the cutting edge are not beveled to provide stops so that you don't whack the cutting edges together when you complete the cut. Weld the two heads onto a spring handle just as you would for a spring fuller and you're good to go.

The cutting edges can be handily forged using a V block on flat dies, or they can be machined if you have a milling machine. I learned this one from Steve Parker, and it took him only a couple minutes to forge a pair of bits that looked as good as machined ones.

For cutting stock where you're going to be drawing a point, this method saves a LOT of aggravation and time. Likewise for making balls on the end of stock, etc.
   vicopper - Saturday, 11/10/07 12:56:48 EST
For my beginning smithing students their "real" instructor wants them to make a couple of nails. As they are limited on time and skill I have them shoulder with a guillotine fuller and then draw back from the shoulder to the point.

I also made *2* headers one slightly smaller than the other so a nail that fails on the big one can often be saved on the small one.

Me if I needed a bunch of old fashioned nails I'd go to Tremont Nail Co!

Thomas
   Thomas P - Saturday, 11/10/07 13:12:13 EST
Step by step nail making drawing by Jock Dempsey

Above is the way most folks are making nails today. This works very smoothly. The hole in the nail header is relieved underneath so it is not too deep and the hole is tapered (larger at the bottom). Drawing made for Poor Boy Tools.

The drawing below made for Paw-Paw's book is the way many books show using headers with the exception of leaving a lump on the point as it is forged. This method of stock isolation is relatively new. In this case the nail rod must be larger than the hole in the header and the taper forged beyond the shoulder. This method works but is a little trickier than above.



When I make heavy spike nails from 1/4" square bar stock I clamp the pointed spike in the vise and head it there. For large spikes that you want to use a header on you can use this method to make the initial upset and shoulder then transfer to a header.

When using a header for bolts and such the bar must be upset to catch and form a shoulder when heading.
   - guru - Saturday, 11/10/07 14:46:27 EST
NORMALIZING:
I'm making a throwing hawk for a friend out of a ball pien hammer, I don't do blades and don't want to have to do this one twice!! When do I normalize the metal, after the last forging and before grinding and cleanup, or when I temper the blade at the end? Thanks
   Roland - Saturday, 11/10/07 14:49:39 EST
Going back to Native American copper use in what's now eastern north America, there was lots of prehistoric use of native copper nuggets. No evidence of smelting, though.

After contact, there's a lot of adaptive reuse of things like copper kettles and their iron bails and lugs, with arrow points and knives being made from such.

Since the original question was for the 1890 period, I made the response I did. Adaptive re-use still happens. For years the preferred raw material for tin tinkler cones on fancy-dance regalia was the lids off snuff cans.
   Alan-L - Saturday, 11/10/07 16:33:27 EST
Roland normalizing is performed after forging and prior to further heat treatment. However in forgings with large section changes annealing is often recommended instead. To normalize the part is either left to air cool after the last heat if throughly hot after working (usually not in hand work). Or it is given a last heat and let air cool.

"The normalizing of steel is carried out by heating approximately 100 oF above the UCT (Upper Critical Temperature) followed by cooling in air to room temperature. "
This results in a relatively uniform steel microstructure. Some steels do not benefit from normalizing.
   - guru - Saturday, 11/10/07 16:33:37 EST
Scraping machine ways,

When I refurbish the rams & stuffing box assemblies of hammers I 'scrape' the surface of the ram with an electric 'flatting iron' grinder, and check with a blued ground flat block - I then draw lots of little circles about 1 1/4" dia all over it once ive cleared any high spots, (in nice, evenly spaced lines)

I dont know how effective it is, and doubt the hammer will work much better when its done but it looks real pretty (you can tell Ive been working with metal to long !! :0 ,

I always tell folks its to hold an oil film, who knows though? - I just like making a job look 'right' even if mechanically its already ok ( I doubt the grinder moves more than a couple of tenths of a thou per pass!!)

remember a bit of pride in your work costs nothing !
   - John N - Saturday, 11/10/07 18:56:07 EST
Sword Making: Saw program on TV (How Is It Made). Piece of tool steel was placed in an automated shaper which turned out a rough finished blade in about an hour - including blood groove. Blade was then heated in a bath of liquid salt, quenched and hand-finished.
   Ken Scharabok - Saturday, 11/10/07 20:26:05 EST
On YouTube there are a number of videos of the production going on in Chinese shops where they are cranking out hundreds of hand made swords. Except for the use of a power hammer the techniques are more than ancient. Rows of guys hand grinding by working the sword back and forth across a wet grind stone setting horizontal on top of an oil drum. .

The 21st Century includes the most modern as well as thousand year old technologies both used to compete in a global economy.
   - guru - Saturday, 11/10/07 20:45:35 EST
Ebay Auction Ads: These were something new we were trying and it seemed there was some interest. I thought it was nice to see some of what was for sale in our area of interest. . . Then their system broke down and started serving ads for Nintendo, Channell 44 and Guicii shoes. . . We had ZERO interest (click throughs) in 24 hours! This is compared to 20-30 average for the group of ads we were running. SO I pulled the prominent ads.

I'd like some feedback of what you folks think of having the ebay ads. I figured we discuss them enough that we should earn something back. However, these ads work differently than others and do not pay unless the person clicking the ad signs up for an ebay account OR buys something in a certain amount of time. It is not a pay per click system like the google ads. You also need to see what happens in the long run to know if they are paying. . Having the system break down the week after we sign up is not helpful.
   - guru - Saturday, 11/10/07 21:15:53 EST
Jock, I don't think much of the ebay ads. Unless they paid you very well, it wouldn't be worth it to us readers.
   - John Odom - Saturday, 11/10/07 21:31:53 EST
I don't like the eBay ads. I can barely tolerate the Google ads. I realize something has to fund this site, but if the auction ads aren't that much return on investment, I'd dump them. I check eBay fairly often anyway.
   vicopper - Saturday, 11/10/07 22:21:36 EST
I just wanted to say thanks to everyone who weighed in on the taper and point question I had last night. I spent a big part of this evening working on the technique and with a combination of the advice I did a VERY satisfactory job of a 12" taper with a fine point on 1/2" hot rolled round stock. I know my customer will be impressed when he sees the final piece.
Thanks especially to the Guru and to Thomas P
   Will - Saturday, 11/10/07 23:24:52 EST
I actually clicked on some of the ebay ad's out of curiosity, I think I saw one or two ASO's.
   Nabiul Haque - Sunday, 11/11/07 00:06:07 EST
Ebay Ad Selection: Ad servers do not give you a lot of choice in how you select or filter ads. Key words are used to try to get ads that appeal to your users. On this page I am using a VERY tight filter "blacksmith anvil" to get the most applicable items.

The problem is that the key word system on ebay is very abused and one of the most abused phrases is "blacksmith anvil forge iron". You see everything from toys and video games to post cards and car parts listed under this category. in actual blacksmiths tools you see EVERYTHING listed with the key word "anvil" in it. . . so I have used the tightest filter I could here.

However, ebay DOES give you some choice. Google ads are based strictly on what their computers think your users are interested in and what keywords their advertisers pay for. Some advertisers who have anvil, forge, blacksmith, iron, steel in their business name and are not related to any of those subjects (anvil brand mixers for example) stupidly try to buy the key words with their name in them. . . So we get some very odd stuff occasionally. "Blacksmith apps" commercial kitchen management software was a recent one. However, google has what they call a "competitive ad filter" where you can block specific web addresses.

Sadly there is no way I can block the ebay ASO ads. All we can do is try to educate people.

As to ads on the forum pages, they may stop in the future as they do not pay very well. Ads in other locations do much better. We cover too wide of topics here and many of the ads are either the wrong category or the same over and over. This has been a learning process and I am still learning.


   - guru - Sunday, 11/11/07 08:55:30 EST
The ad that appeared to the right of the page for the 15# anvil on eBay is interesting. It is clearly a cast iron ASO but the seller said: "The boxes say cast iron but they turned out to be cast steel so I am passing along the savings". Right. I just hate it when I want to make something out of cast iron and the foundry makes it out of cast steel. Two different metals, different shrinkage, different methods to make and pour it. This person is incredibly cynical and malicious in his advertising. Jock, I would not want Anvilfire to be seen as associated with people like that.
   quenchcrack - Sunday, 11/11/07 09:22:50 EST
Anyone know a guy in New York city by the name (Jim Garvey) I have looked everywhere but cant find his number or info. far as ive heard hes a blacksmith did some iron work in the NYC subways, and on the statue of liberty. I am living in NYC at the moment. and looking for any type of blacksmith shops around.
thanks
   Cooper - Sunday, 11/11/07 10:12:53 EST
GURU
I had to laugh. One of the eBay ads was from johnnie8acres.
   - Tom H - Sunday, 11/11/07 11:05:52 EST
Yeah, I've thought about having a link to an ebay buyers guide. . .
   - guru - Sunday, 11/11/07 12:01:31 EST
Alan L, A little correction.

Male fancy-feather Indian dancers used sleigh bells and sometimes open-ended "sheep bells" for dancing.

The rolled tobacco can lids for jingles was used by female jingle dress dancers beginning about 1930, the provenance probably being Whitefish Bay, Canada. The jingle dress dance is now widespread in the powwow world, the jingles being attached in rows to the decorated dresses.

The powwow announcer's joke going around: If there's such a thing as reincarnation, I want to come back as a jingle.
   Frank Turley - Sunday, 11/11/07 12:16:39 EST
Quick question, what kind of volume would I need in a hand operated bellows for a forge of about a square foot in size and half a foot deep? My last attempt using an old binder a garbage bag and some pop bottles didn't prove even close to the amount of air needed to get a forge started.
   Nabiul Haque - Sunday, 11/11/07 12:19:29 EST
James Garvey is still in NYC, as far as I know- he has a website you can use to contact him.
www.jamesgarvey.net

Anyone who is not familiar with his work should check him out. Besides being more than competent at small scale traditional blacksmithing, he has done a series of awesome street furniture in NYC, mostly forged fluidly from 2" round bar, including his IRT subway station, with 2" round bronze lines threading thru the space.
   - Ries - Sunday, 11/11/07 13:25:33 EST
I'm pretty well set to try a forced air propane burner. I have pretty much everything I need except a propane hose with 1/4" or 3/8" MPT or FPT fittings on each end. I'm having a hard time finding one locally. Is this typically something that needs to be ordered, or is it the sort of thing I ought to be able to find in a brick and mortar store? If so, where should I be looking?
   Matt B - Sunday, 11/11/07 13:26:18 EST
I am working on a rosette projet. I found in the 1996 issue of the blacksmihting journal a section about die to be used with a blacksmihtin magician. The concept is very smart and look effcient... Until i tried.

Essentially a 5/8 round strock is inserted in the top fuller and a die is serving as a punch. So far my s7 round stock is not holding. In fact it mushroom inside the top fuller but that is another problem

I guess my question is where I can find a 5/8 stock that i can use to insert in my top fuller and what kind of metal should i use to make my die. Square. round tear drop etc that they dont bend under the pressure. For some reason the people using Fly press must have to same issue if they are not using the right metal for their die.

Not even sure if I make sense here. I hope so, if not I will try to expalain again


Thanks in advance for your input


Dan
North Troy, vermont
   Dan - Sunday, 11/11/07 14:05:21 EST
Dan, For hot work of this type you can usually get away with mild steel for limited production. S7 should be more than adequate for high production runs and even cold work if properly heat treated. Annealed it may mushroom under heavy use.

Note that a punch is usually a male part that is used alone or with a female die. Your word picture leaves me confused as to what the problem is.

We have a whole series of flypress and general press tooling articles on the iForge page. Most of the tooling being demonstrated is mild steel. Where slender punches are in use they are H13 or S7. A2 would work as well. All are sold in the annealed condition so that they can be machined to shape and must be heat treated prior to use.




   - guru - Sunday, 11/11/07 14:33:40 EST
Hoses: Matt, Standard hose should be available from a propane equipment distributor (like and RV store) or a welding equipment store. Most welding equipment suppliers have hose assemblies but will also put together custom hoses with any ends you want.
   - guru - Sunday, 11/11/07 14:36:57 EST
Matt,

I had my propane hose made up at Fairfax Propane. Make sure you bring your checkbook, though . . .
   Mike BR - Sunday, 11/11/07 14:57:36 EST
Frank:

Thanks for the corrections and dates! I know you're in the Powwow world; I am not.
   Alan-L - Sunday, 11/11/07 16:51:54 EST
My male part of the die is a 5/8 round stock made of H13 that is inserted in a 5/8 plus 1 hair hole in the female part that is a piece of steel that is 3/4 by 2" wide and 6" high. The male part mushroomed inside the Male part.

I might not have heat treated properly neither the male part H13 or the female part S7.

Where can I find the procedure to heat treat the H13 and the S7. That might solve the problem

Any suggestions where to buy H13 and S7 in small quanities ot make dies and punch

Thanks


Dan
   Dan - Sunday, 11/11/07 19:32:29 EST
Tool Steels: Dan, There are varieties of places to buy tool steel. You can get many tools steels in a variety of cut lengths from our On-line metals store. McMaster-Carr also has small quantity order service.

We have heat treating information in our Heat Treating FAQ. There is also information in the on-line store. For many of these hot work steels it is possible to not get them hot enough prior to quenching. However, DO NOT overheat, heat as evenly as possible and quench in the proper warmed quenchant.
   - guru - Sunday, 11/11/07 20:10:41 EST
Mushrooming: While the type of tool you are making should be possible to make without mushrooming it is difficult to judge on struck tools. Even with the best hardening and tempering the tool MAY mushroom some. Because of that possibility the shank should have a very slightly tapered section before the end, a heavy chamfer AND a slightly crowned end. This can all be shaped by hand with a file and sandpaper or on a belt sander but is best done on a lathe.

Normally struck tools want the struck end tempered to where it may mushroom under heavy use rather than crack or spall. However, struck tools that fit a holder should be very hard to avoid mushrooming. Note that ALL tool steels should be tempered some amount and that hot work steels can be tempered at considerably high temperatures.

To the best of my knowledge the steel sold with the Smithing Magician is SAE 4140 and does not get extremely hard. However, a socket made of it should be hardened (oil quenched) and tempered. The struck end is normally very tapered so that it could swell and is tempered fairly soft.
   - guru - Sunday, 11/11/07 20:27:18 EST
I checked out the Hey Buddy anvil on the eBay ad. Nice anvil and right now is fairly priced. I just wonder where the sellers got the idea that a "nice ping" was a desireable feature? Who defines "nice"? According the American Association for Anvils, Spec A250-BHIT, the frequency of the ping shall be between 250 and 550 kilocycles per second when rapped with a steel mallet weighing not more than 2% of the mass of the anvil. The anvil shall he hit with a mallet speed no to exceed 2 feet per second. The anvil shall be struck on the face 1" from each corner and the results averaged. The duration of the resonance shall be a minimum of 4 seconds. The anvil shall be securely mounted to a sound-attenuating block weighing not less than 50% of the mass of the anvil. The person conducting the test shall affirm and avere that he has read these specifications and the test results are true and accurate."
   quenchcrack - Monday, 11/12/07 08:29:56 EST
I happened across an EXTREMELY (to my laymans eye) old looking blade over here in Northern Japan, it resembles nothing more than a short Gladius, maybe more of a dagger size, it may be copper or brass, it's not magnetic and has a bluish/green hue to the corrosion, looks almost like someone pulled it up in a fishing net; do y'all happen to know anyone who might be able to tell me something about it? The fellow who sold it to me hadn't a clue... Thanks much!
   Kajiya-In-Training - Monday, 11/12/07 08:32:51 EST
Quenchcrack.

All of my Hay Buddies passed the ping test except one, and it was mounted on a sound absorbant material. I'll re-do it.
   Frank Turley - Monday, 11/12/07 08:44:07 EST
I realize this is a technical forum, and hope you don't mind me asking the following question for a novel I'm writing in which someone is manacled. I'm wondering about how a manacle would be put on and taken off by a smith--probably a farrier in a small village, with roughly medieval technology. Could the manacle be made from a horseshoe? Would the rivets be hot when hammered in? (Very scary for the person in the manacle, I would think). Would you use a chisel to break off head of rivet to undo the manacle? Or would they have had steel saws of some kind that could get through iron?
I found an example of a slave manacle on the web, which looks about the right level of crudeness: http://www.library.cornell.edu/olinuris/ref/moravia4.html (scroll nearly to bottom of page). I had pictured more
of a flat band around the wrist with only one rivet, but this one looks even more impossible to escape from.
Sarah Micklem, www.firethorn.info
   Sarah Micklem - Monday, 11/12/07 08:53:30 EST
Ebay Prices: In the past month I have bid on a couple ebay items and lost on all. I went 30% over my set price for a lathe at the the last minute in a bidding war (stupid thing to do) and still lost. Most of the good anvils I have seen went that way. Looked reasonable until the real bidding started. . .

I shop for a variety of things on ebay (looking at fork lifts now). But anything with the slightest hint of rarity or a poorly know market price often goes for way too much.

That lathe I bid on was an unused virtually NEW 1960's Craftsman lathe. It still had the cosmolene on the ways. But anything loose had been lost. That included the standard components, face plate, centers, tool post, a lever, motor pulley (special size two step) and change gear set. Seller claimed you could still get parts from Sears. . He was wrong. You need to know what you are bidding on. I thought it was worth $800 (they are only an "OK" lathe) but it went for $1050 and would have been more if I had kept bidding. . .

Hopefully the guy that got it knew what he was bidding on. The parts to make it usable will mostly have to be found on ebay. But chucks to fit will be new at $400. By the time it is a usable tool he will have another $1000 in it not including a stand. I have another like it that has all the parts but lots of wear and tear. I was just going to swap them out and keep the old one for spares. . .

Anvils can be found reasonably priced at blacksmith meets. Craftsman lathes in perfect condition are much rarer. But you have to know what something is worth.
   - guru - Monday, 11/12/07 09:07:55 EST
Sarah Micklem.
Manacles.

I found an English set of manacles on eBay which are similar in form to the Cornell referenced one. If one hole overlays the other, an iron rivet can be inserted and a rivet head hammered at room temperature on an anvil or other block of steel. When end-hammered, the metal thickens (upsets) and swells into a shaped rivet head. To undo the manacle, a cold chisel could be used. Filing or the use of a stone abrasive could also be employed to remove a rivet head. I believe that hacksaws were available in the Middle Ages.

I doubt whether a farrier would have made manacles, especially out of horseshoes. Farriers specialized in making shoes, shoeing tools, and in the Middle Ages, they doubled as veterinarians.

I would differ with you in our interpretation of "crudeness." The pictured manacles are cleverly and skillfully forged and most likely made by a blacksmith, not a farrier.
   Frank Turley - Monday, 11/12/07 09:48:09 EST
Quenchcrack, I'm not familiar with that spec but it doesn't seem to make sense. The spectrum of a 2 ft/sec hammer blow probably isn't going to have a significant amount of energy above 20 khz and, even if it did, you couldn't hear it.
   Mike Ferrara - Monday, 11/12/07 10:00:11 EST
Mike, yeah, ya need special instrumentation to do this test. :-)
   quenchcrack - Monday, 11/12/07 11:34:19 EST
Frank Turley,
Thanks for your answer, and the correction on crudeness factor. Here's another image from the Kansas Historical society (of a leg shackle), much more what I had in mind--no fancy hinge or anything: http://www.kshs.org/cool/shackle.htm Plus there's a hero blacksmith story to go with the picture!

Could something like that be improvised, and how long would it take?
Sarah
   Sarah Micklem - Monday, 11/12/07 12:36:41 EST
Hi, I have been looking for days now for a reference site on Anvil Serial Numbers and of course have no access to a library if they would even carry such book. My Anvil is stamped Hay-Budden Mfg Brooklyn, NY and has serial number of 196877......Please help me!!!
   Dana - Monday, 11/12/07 12:38:07 EST
Hi Dana
You're anvil was manufactured in 1912.
   - Burnt Forge - Monday, 11/12/07 13:00:18 EST
This info can be found on page 303 of "Anvils In America" by : Richard A Postman. This book is available in the anvilfire store.
   - Burnt Forge - Monday, 11/12/07 13:02:20 EST
Burnt Forge,
Thank you so much!!!! You have been such great help!!! I am done being stressed!!!
   Dana - Monday, 11/12/07 13:07:09 EST
Your very welcome
   - Burnt Forge - Monday, 11/12/07 13:08:06 EST
Burnt Forge,
Hello again! Just curious, how much do you think the estimated amount of the 1912 Hay Budden Anvil might be worth?

   Dana - Monday, 11/12/07 13:51:58 EST
Bronze Blade: Not a clue here. Jappanese bronze implements are a pretty rare specialty.
   - guru - Monday, 11/12/07 13:57:02 EST
Prisoner or Slave Shackles: One of my first commissions was to make ten sets of legirons for a movie production. These had two omega shaped pieces with holes on the flanges. A chain link was welded in one side and a nut and bolt went in the rivet side. Pairs were assembled with about 24" of chain in between. When locks were used a primitive screw lock was common. While this was a good paying job it was rather depressing thinking about what they were used for while making them.

The one piece shackle you showed is closed and riveted by a blacksmith and much have the rivet chiseled out and pried open by a blacksmith or metal worker to remove. Escape is impossible without cutting the metal.

Any blacksmith could make something like this for you. Its about an hour's job once scheduled and in the shop, longer if you need a pair with chains. No improvisation to it. If a blacksmith makes it, it is the REAL thing.

   - guru - Monday, 11/12/07 14:09:35 EST
I see Blue Blade Steel is still using Pirated information from Anvilfire. Maybe they meant to call themselves "Blue Beard Steel".
   quenchcrack - Monday, 11/12/07 14:13:53 EST
Thank you, guru.
Chiseling out the rivet would involve lots of hammering, right? How long would that take? Would it dull the chisel and if so, how would the smith sharpen it (given roughly medieval tech).

   Sarah Micklem - Monday, 11/12/07 15:22:36 EST
Bob, looks like they lifted the temper chart with the reference indicators but dropped the reference material. I'm sure Jock will not let them get away with it. The internet is huge, but we have eye's everywhere.
   daveb - Monday, 11/12/07 15:38:11 EST
Hi Dana
Many factors go into the value of an anvil. The most important is weight class, condition, style and maker. You have a desired maker. I would need a weight and a good clear photo to give you a proper estimate. Without these I can only guessing depending on condition and weight class of a Hay Budden being valued at .50 to 6.00 dollars a lb.
   - Burnt Forge - Monday, 11/12/07 16:18:25 EST
Anvilfire: The optimism
Pirated information can be looked at as the best form of flattery. :)
   - Burnt Forge - Mond