| WELCOME to the anvilfire Guru's Den - V. 3.0 |
|
THIS is a forum for questions and answers about blacksmithing and general metalworking. Ask the Guru any reasonable question and he or one of his helpers will answer your question, find someone that can, OR research the question for you. This is an archive of posts from December 18 - 24, 2002 on the Guru's Den |
|
|
|
MERRY CHRISTAMS TO ALL AND TO ALL A JOYOUS NEW YEAR (especially you Frank, say hi to the wife from me and the misses) |
| triw - Wednesday, 12/18/02 02:37:49 GMT |
|
Thanks triw. To everyone, my sentiments, as well. Christian or not, enjoy the holidays. |
| Frank Turley - Wednesday, 12/18/02 04:55:35 GMT |
|
Thanks, everyone, for your input. Good food for thought. I have made a few contacts in Santa Fe, so maybe even some items with a southwestern theme would do well. Happy Holidays! |
| Heather - Wednesday, 12/18/02 05:33:13 GMT |
|
hello; would anyone know of an online economic comparison of dry liquid nitrogen dewar verses an air compressor? the primary reason for having an air compressor would be to provide air for a plasma cutter. a dry liquid nitrogen dewar supplying the required amount to 'air' would seem to alleviate several of the problems of using an air compressor. i.e. humidity, cycling of the air compressor, size of the air compressor and reservoir, blowing down the air filters, etc. also an economic comparison of liquid oxygen dewar verses compressed oxygen cylinders for cutting and welding would also be beneficial. -- Terry L. Ridder > |
| terry l. ridder - Wednesday, 12/18/02 05:55:47 GMT |
|
My dad has a Whitney Metal Tool Company punch. Model 10-3. He would like to know if and where he can find more bits for this tool. |
| Gary - Wednesday, 12/18/02 09:15:00 GMT |
|
Gary: which whitney is it? i have a roper whitney 1 ton press (not flywheel but over head crank) you can visit www.roperwhitney.com and see if they still manufacture the press (very nice people!) my punch has been manufactured by another company for several years now: a-america 2620 aburn st rockford illinois 61101 815-965-0882 you can try both, next month im calling a-american and finding out if i can get a die made to punch out solid rings of 14ga steel sheet stock (my other time consuming hobby is chainmaille ;) ) hope this is helpful |
| Mike Kruzan - Wednesday, 12/18/02 10:22:22 GMT |
|
Heather, It is difficult to say what is *really* Santa Fe or Southwestern, and what is quick to make and market. Some of the hardware has a zig-zag outline on the escutcheons, reminiscent of a Navaho rug or geometric beadwork design. It is fairly recent on ironwork and there is not much smithing involved, but it sells. It is kind of related to a 1920's period of Southwest architecture, named "Pueblo Deco".* There are multitudinous plasma cut/laser cut/water jet cut kokopeli figures and coyote-howling-at-moon figures. Amazingly, they sell! All of the above make me retch, barf, and hurl, even though I have done a little of the Pueblo Deco stuff to satisfy customers. * Check your bookseller sites for a book titled, "Pueblo Deco". |
| Frank Turley - Wednesday, 12/18/02 13:40:17 GMT |
|
Frank; I've heard Kokopelli is coming back, and he's after all them royalties! :) |
| - 3dogs - Wednesday, 12/18/02 14:23:07 GMT |
|
I put out poison for those howling coyotes-at-the-moon coyote figures |
| adam - Wednesday, 12/18/02 14:53:19 GMT |
|
Frank, take a thin black thread and tie several beads along it's length. Now you have something to hang on the Kokopelli's that look like he's sticking that thing in his eye---blood drops! Thomas |
| - Thomas Powers - Wednesday, 12/18/02 15:55:53 GMT |
|
Guru, I have a pneumatic forging hammer Beche Type LG 6 (300KG), I would like to get a vibration-isolator dampers. ¿Do you know companies in the U.S. that do it? |
| Alex - Wednesday, 12/18/02 15:57:13 GMT |
|
HI Heather I do some work in Santa fe myself , mostly architectural but I have noticed lizards are another popular sw motif |
| aaron craig - Wednesday, 12/18/02 16:17:45 GMT |
|
Punching Rings: Mike, A single punch and die will not do this. What you have to have is called a "progressive dieset". These are all custom enginered and manufactured. In most cases they need custom punches and dies. In your case the punches could be standard round punches but to prevent huge material losses the dies would probably have to be custom. How a progressive dieset works: There are multiple punches and dies mounted in a "dieset". A dieset is two cast iron plates called "shoes" with cylindrical guide bars and bushings on which the top shoe slides up and down. The dieset holds and guides the punches and dies. It may also feed the stock. In a progressive dieset multiple operations are performed sequentialy as the stock is fed through the dieset. Example: 1) a hole or multiple holes are punched, 2) the stock fed a fixed distance, 3) the part blanked out AND stage one repeated in clean stock. Indexing the stock the correct distance is critical. Indexing is done several ways. On automatic diesets the feeding mechanism is designed to push the stock the exact distance. On manual diesets the correct distance is often done by shearing off a piece of the edge in the first stage to create a stop notch OR the end of the waste material is sheared off creating an "end stop". Then the stock is hand fed against a stop and the second operation performed. When the second operation is performed the first is repeated simultaneously creating a new stop notch or end. Progressive diesets can be hand fed with narrow strips of stock cut to managable lengths. Automatic diesets are fed from coils of material that may go through straightening rolls as it is fed into the dieset. Feed mechanisms on automatic diesets are powered by the vertical motion of the upper shoe. Lever mechanisims are often used and so are rack and pinion mechanisms or a combination of the two. Typicaly a lever rotates a shaft through an over running clutch so that feeding is on the up stroke but if the design requires, it can be on the begining of the down stroke. Friction feed wheels on the shaft push the stock into the dieset. These are normaly designed to index the exact distance but can also be combined with a stock stop for added precision. When punch presses use automatic feed they are usualy run continously and can make hundreds or thousands of parts per hour. The parts fall out of the die, slide down a chute into a container or onto a conveyor. Biscuits and skeletons drop into a waste container or onto another conveyor. Even when hand fed hundreds of parts can be made in day. I've made hundreds of parts with hand fed progressive diesets on a punch press and also hundreds of blanks using a manualy pumped hydraulic press. Once you have setup to make parts at these rates you also need to look into machine deburing such as a tumbler or vibratory finisher. Besides the punches, dies and stops, diesets also have pressure pads for clamping the work and stripper plates for pulling the part off a punch (these are often one and the same). Diesets are also packed with heavy springs called "stripper springs" to operate pressure pads and return the top shoe to the open position. Stripper springs are usualy held in place by a special grade of shoulder bolt called a "stripper bolt" but springs can also be held in place by pockets machined in the shoes. The last dieset I built used a combination of the two. The pockets were necessary to get a long enough spring in the narrow space. Diesets are built from standard parts that are then machined to hold all the parts. Completed shoes on diesets look like Swiss cheese from all the holes and slots machined in them to hold all the parts in precision alignment and to allow the parts to fall through. A large coil of metal is fed in, and parts slide out. Plink, plink, plink as fast as you can blink. . amazing machines! Progressive diesets are often built for blanking flat parts for everything from watch parts to bridge parts, but are also used to bend and form. Shapes are also made from wire or bar that is fed in and the bent shapes come out. Punching would be a wasteful method of making rings with narrow sections but it IS done when a continous part with a square section is needed. To blank the part with a thin section after punching would require a pressure pad with heavy clamping. Washers are made this way but they are much less wasteful than a narrow section ring. You MIGHT be able to use standard round punches and dies in a progressive dieset if you have several index steps before the first blanking operation. Punch, punch then punch and blank. After that each cycle punches and blanks. At the end of the strip you may have some unblanked parts. |
| - guru - Wednesday, 12/18/02 17:29:58 GMT |
|
Leaping Lizzards! As Lil' Orphan Annie used to say. . That is a nice desert motif. Some ideas. . Lizard or snake S-hooks. One end looks like a regular hook the other has little eyes and a mouth. Short legs cut out of the sides with a chisle would convert a smake to a lizard. If you cut the front legs going back and the back legs going forward the result would leave a fat lizard like body. Kitchen utensils with Leaping Lizzard™ handles. The lizzard's mouth clamped on dipping bowls and spatulas its tail in little loop to hang them from. Leaping Lizzard™ napkin rings, bracelets and jewelery. Leaping Lizzard™ yin-yang onaments with two lizzards. Leaping Lizzard™ shelf brackets. . . Leaping Lizzard™ is a tradmark of My Imagination Co, Inc, Ltd. and all proceeds are to be sent HERE (anvilfire.com) ;) Hashing out these kinds of ideas takes a little crazyness. Once you have a motif run with it. . . Hmmm. . Leaping Lizzard™ belt buckles, Leaping Lizzard™ hair bows, Leaping Lizzard™ key fobs. . . Leaping lizzards! |
| - guru - Wednesday, 12/18/02 17:49:15 GMT |
|
These are, of course, not to be confused with the "Leapin' Lizzerd" line of products from Oakley Forge; or the "Leeping Lizzird" line from YingYang Ironworks in Three Gorges, China! ;-) |
| Bruce Blackistone (Atli) - Wednesday, 12/18/02 19:33:05 GMT |
|
| - guru - Wednesday, 12/18/02 20:15:55 GMT |
|
Punching Rings (part two): Mike, Jock is right that normally a progressive die is used. But a compound die will also work quite well. A compound die will punch the I.D. like a normal punch and die, but also blank the O.D. up and then return the parts to the strip/stock via spring pressure. All one has to do thereafter is separate the parts (slug, ring, strip). It will be, however, an expensive set-up (as ALL dies should be, because it's what I do for a living...) BTW: Jock you've dated yourself with the comment that Dieshoes are cast iron! Most commercial shoes are flame-cut plate steel these days (I use 7075 aluminum on dies that run over 800 SPM and under 30 tons). |
| Zero - Wednesday, 12/18/02 20:23:36 GMT |
|
I LIKE cast iron diesets! They machine much easier than those made of dubious plate (imported A-36). But then most of mine are small in the 8" x 12" range and I think most of those are still cast. Now the 7075 T-6 AL machines REAL nice. . I didn't think of a compound punch and die. But they are a real pain to make and have work right. You can get away with turned and bored tolerances on plain punches and dies but just about have to cylindrical grind compound parts to meet the tolerances. I traded off my Brown & Sharp cylindrical grinder because it was such a bear to setup and use. . . I'm designing a machine now that will use a die set as a support for part of a bending die. They are much cheaper than anything you could make yourself to do the same job and are usualy much better made than you could aford to make. |
| - guru - Wednesday, 12/18/02 22:45:26 GMT |
|
I am a fourth-grader doing a research project- How long was each work day in Colonial times? Also About how many hours a day does a modern blacksmith work? Please Email me back. Thanks, Nick |
| Nick - Wednesday, 12/18/02 23:23:58 GMT |
|
I have a research project to do and i wanted to know are there still blacksmiths today? |
| Max - Wednesday, 12/18/02 23:48:28 GMT |
|
Nick, Usually about 12 hours a day, sometimes more. Max. Yes, about 5,000 in the US today. |
| Paw Paw - Wednesday, 12/18/02 23:56:47 GMT |
|
Just gotta be different I guess. I don't use die sets any more because I can machine the whole thing on the VMC (CNC vetical mill). Saves a lot of time getting everything lined up. After machining I press in guide pins and bushings and everything matches. |
| - grant - Thursday, 12/19/02 00:04:58 GMT |
|
Nick; Blacksmith Workdays: Paw Paw's 12 hours was pretty standard for colonial times, when people in an agricultural society were used to working from "sunrise to sunset". (Longer in summer and shorter in winter, of course.) A modern smith, working for a company, may have the standard eight hour day, whereas an independant smith may work until the job gets done, and a farrier (horse shoer) might need to work whenever the job is needed, much like a vet. In the medieval period (of which there is some connection in these trades with the colonial period) blacksmiths were unique in that they could work effectively at night. It is certainly cooler, and the dim light makes it easier to judge temperature in the ironwork by color. We know this because of the complaints filed by neighbors about the hammering blacksmiths keeping them up at night. Whether night work was common in the colonial era would depend on the smith, the work, and whether he had a lot of neighbors (in town) or none (out in the country). In the modern era, part time, I like to work at night. Not a hard and fast answer, but something to think about and incorporate into your paper. Max: There's a whole bunch right here. There are many people who serve as farriers shoeing horses, industrial blacksmiths making tools and repairs, artists blacksmiths, archtectural blacksmiths creating building hardware, blacksmiths at historic sites and schools teaching people about blacksmiths and how to blacksmith... All sorts of folks are blacksmithing these days, professional, part-time and amature. Check out the ABANA site in our links page and see if they list how many members thay have. Visit your National Parks: www.nps.gov Go viking: www.wam.umd.edu/~eowyn/Longship/ |
| Bruce Blackistone (Atli) - Thursday, 12/19/02 04:27:38 GMT |
|
The early horseshoeing shops had horses on the floor all day every work day. In the larger cities, there was even specialization, especially between light or carriage horses and draft horses. Not just everyone wanted to shoe oxen, either; it was a specialty. Great numbers of the early farriers *were* the horse doctors, did everything from floating teeth to treating colic. |
| Frank Turley - Thursday, 12/19/02 05:13:42 GMT |
|
In the mountains, we used to say that folks worked from "can to can't". Meaning that they worked from the time they could see (usually just about sunrise) until they could no longer see (usually about an hour after sunset). As Bruce noted, that was longer in the summer, shorter in the winter. They didn't work by lantern light very much, coal oil was expensive. Most of the folks that I knew up in the mountains tried to make a five gallon can of coal oil last at least two weeks. |
| Paw Paw - Thursday, 12/19/02 05:37:31 GMT |
|
The thought of doing plasma-cut kokopellis makes my stomach churn. Alex-My teacher has had good luck with lizards and chili peppers on various hardware, etc.. the last couple of trips that we have made, so I have had a chance to get a somewhat of a feel for what sells there. Each time we go to Santa Fe we stop by Rob Gunters to visit, show him our latest work, and see what he's up to. He has been very incouraging about our work, which is a bit of an ego booster. I guess if I brainstorm long enough I can come up with a good original design for that area. Most of what I like to do is flowers, things that involve scrollwork, finials, etc.. |
| Heather - Thursday, 12/19/02 05:43:39 GMT |
|
Heather; A man named Patrick Spielman, who specializes in books about routers and scrollsaws has a pretty good book out that's just chock full of Southwestern patterns, (including one really good lizard) I don't remember the title right off the top of my head, and my copy is out in the shop, but nearly all the bookstores carry his books in their woodworking sections. He even suggests cutting the lizard out of polished copper and inlaying a piece of patinated (green) copper in sort of a lightning bolt pattern on its back. Of course the designs can be Xeroxed up or down to suit. I hope this will be of some help. Welcome aboard. Best regards, 3dogs |
| - 3dogs - Thursday, 12/19/02 07:55:16 GMT |
|
Guru thank you for so much information,i didnt really figure it would be such a process, and since i need about 5k punched rings per chain shirt, i think that i will look for an industrial supplier for the punched rings instead, thanks again Mike |
| Mike Kruzan - Thursday, 12/19/02 14:01:20 GMT |
|
Mike, Just out of curiosity, why are you using punched rings? Seems like cut rings would be a lot easier to use. |
| Paw Paw - Thursday, 12/19/02 15:11:42 GMT |
|
PPW, Do you mind me asking how you came up with 5000 smiths today? I ask as I suspect the number is greater than that. How many home grown self taught smiths are out there who do ont belong to any groups? I ask as I konw of at least 7. And it would seem to me that there would be more all over the Nation. Just a thought..... |
| Ralph - Thursday, 12/19/02 15:26:54 GMT |
|
I formerly used all-purpose lithium lube (grease) on my leg vise threads. A while back, I was doing research on the hanging of church bells, and the experts said *not* to use grease on the gudgeons/bearings, but rather oil. Over time, grease combines with dirt to create an "abrasive paste", thus causing excess wear. I understand that chain saw oil is good for oiling up the power hammer, maybe also for the vise threads. Any other opinions? |
| Frank Turley - Thursday, 12/19/02 15:49:40 GMT |
|
Commercial Punch Work and Maile: Mike, Unless the shop you find just happens to have the dieset on hand AND it doesn't belong to a customer you might get those 5,000 rings for about a little over 10 cents each (the $500 setup charge + material + some profit) and only if the shop is REAL hungry. The price will drop as the number increases by thousands. BUT I expect that the shape you want is not a typical punched shape. You probably want a square cross section. This is hard to punch and requires very high pressure pad pressure and is also difficult to strip. This in turn shortens the life of the dies. You are back to a custom dieset and the first 5K will cost you over a dollar each (US) 10K about 60 cents each 20K would be getting down to 35 cents each and at 50K the price would start to flatten around 20 cents each. After spending ten thoussand dollars the future price would be a few cents each up until the dies wore out. I may be way off on these numbers but I would not bet on it. Oh. . this does not include the deburring process. . But most stamping outfits have the necessary equipment for that (at a fee of course). There are spring manufacturers that can setup their automatic coiling machines to cut open single coil rings at very high rates and it is 100% material efficient. You might even be able to find someone that has square wire. Many maile makers make their rings by hand coiling and cutting with hand shears. I suspect they make little per hour. I would guess that if you can make a contact overseas in SE Asia or Pakistan that you could get hand coiled and cut rings for less than those made by punch press in quantities of 100,000. Shipping will cost more than the rings. There are reasons maile was (and is) made the way it was. . . |
| - guru - Thursday, 12/19/02 15:57:18 GMT |
|
Frank- I don't think I'd use oil on vise threads. The grease may pick up dirt, but so does the oil. The difference is that the oil is relatively thinner and flows out to create a layer that is just enough to hold dirt, but not enough to act as a barrier. The grease, being stiffer, acts as a barrier to dirt getting in where it shouldn't. At least that's my impression. Smarter minds may differ. When I worked in a machine shop, everything was greased and oil was frowned upon since it always found its way to the floor, creating a hazard. |
| vicopper - Thursday, 12/19/02 16:00:12 GMT |
|
Square maille wire- Could that be drawn from round, using a carbide draw plate? If so, coiling and cutting 5 or 10 thousand wouldn't take more than a day, if you coil it using a lathe or drill and cut it using a parting or slitting blade in a Foredom flexshaft or a die grinder. A ten minute jig would help the cut from wandering, and a slittin gblade only takes a .020 cut. Add a day for drawing the wire, and you come out ahead of paying a punch press operator. |
| vicopper - Thursday, 12/19/02 16:08:01 GMT |
|
All, Thanks for all the help with stamping! I usually hold the stamps with vice grips, for the first lick anyway. I have gotten pretty good at lining the stamp up with the impression for second and third hits, but it isn;t much fun. I expect that I need to anneal the shoes before I stamp. I probably quenched them without thinking, which is a bad habit I have gotten into. Annealing/Normalizing question: One of the bladesmiths I work with always normaizes a blade before he anneals it. Is this required? I thought annealing did everything normalizing did, and more. He gets good results, but I'm not sure if there is a wasted step in there. Thanks again!! |
| Jim - Thursday, 12/19/02 16:17:57 GMT |
|
Mike: I'm assuming that you are planning every other ring to be a solid punch and then link them together with riveted or butt-ended open rings? My 3/8" i.d. 14 ga. byrnie took 12,800 links and I'm considered a skinny whimp by most of my crew. With all of the specialty washers about, surely you could run down something that fits the bill (and stops a billhook). Visit your National Parks: www.nps.gov Go viking: www.wam.umd.edu/~eowyn/Longship/ |
| Bruce Blackistone (Atli) - Thursday, 12/19/02 16:21:45 GMT |
|
Ralph, I based that "guesstimate" on the member ship of ABANA. There are almost certainly more than that. I did say about. |
| Paw Paw - Thursday, 12/19/02 16:44:40 GMT |
|
Guru; a lot of medieval mail consists of alternating rows of punched and rivited links---there's a reason the did and do make it that way! Thomas |
| - Thomas Powers - Thursday, 12/19/02 17:07:30 GMT |
|
Mike: One more area for sharp cornered, small washers is the type used to shim stripper bolts. I believe they only go to 1/16" in thickness (but that's within .012" of 14 ga.). McMaster-Carr sells 100 3/8" O.D. x 1/4" I.D. for twelve bucks and change, a fastener supplier might be able to cut that price significantly in larger quantities. |
| Zero - Thursday, 12/19/02 17:26:25 GMT |
|
Grease vs. Oil: Frank, Generaly the difference in choosing grease verses oil is pressure, design and access. Oil is sticky and collects dirt just as bad as grease on open surfaces. But oil will run into places where grease must be forced in. Oil works fine for most applications but runs off open parts. On machine ways and screws it must be constantly replaced. In the process it helps wash away dirt and grit in the old oil. Thus the dripping off is useful. . On my leg vises and chipping vises (with covered screws) I use Never-Seize on the screw and thrust washers. But on drill press and milling vises I use oil. Due to the constant covering of chips these machine vises must be cleaned and re-oiled regularly. On lathes oil is used for the ways and lead screws but grease must be used on open gears (those not in an oil bath). Generaly on lathes, chips do not cause a lot of wear but for several years we were machining a great deal of H-13 and A-2. The chips from both of these come off the tool hot and air quench to full hard. They were like sand on the lathe beds and created an enormous amount of wear in a short time. SO. . the kind of contamination is as big a contributing factor as the lubrication. If you are concerned about vise thread wear you need to dissasemble the vise, clean and relubricate on a regular schedule (say at least once a year). But it depends on the amount and kind of use. IF you grind a lot in your vise there will be hard grinding swarf in the lubricant. In this case I would plan on cleaning the threads once a month. |
| - guru - Thursday, 12/19/02 17:29:14 GMT |
|
Max, while I am sure you were referring to blacksmiths as the people who still pound out hot iron and steel by hand or with manual power equipment, remember that the science of metallurgy has it's roots in blacksmithing. For hundreds and perhaps thousands of years, Blacksmiths knew how to effectively work metals without knowing why things worked like they do. It was from the practical experience of blacksmiths that scientific metallurgy was born and the "why" could be answered. In fact, the American Society For Metals and Materials, an organization dedicated to metallury, erected a statue of a blacksmith in front of their new building to acknowledge the huge contributions that blacksmiths have made to modern metallurgical technology. |
| - Quenchcrack - Thursday, 12/19/02 17:44:57 GMT |
|
Jock: You can have your cast iron diesets. In my first year of apprenticeship I was mounting die frames to a CI shoe, and reamed the 1/4" dowel holes on size (just like I did in the O1 frames)... Oops! Dowels fell right through, and the journeyman made me LAP the holes in the hardend frames to .257" to fix the error. I have hated CI ever since ;-) Grant: I wholeheartedly agree! Write the G-Code and let the machines do the work -- 'Course, this is also why the trades are dieing... |
| Zero - Thursday, 12/19/02 17:52:01 GMT |
|
Vise Thread Lube: Frank, both oil and grease make lapping compound with dirt like has been said. Grease CAN keep dirt out better, but no guarantee. Marine grease is stickier and can drag in more dirt. Chain saw oil is also sticky by design. Foundries are a good training ground for the lapping compound thing. Many times it's better to let things run dry than try to lube them in a foundry. A dry film lubricant like Moly Disulfide in a mineral spirits carrier is a good choice since the mineral spirits evaporates leaving the moly disulfide and it does not attract dust and dirt. Reapply regularly. Personally, I also use never sieze on my vise threads and make sure there is a deflector to keep the bulk of the falling crud off. I also cut my threads very tight so the threads act as a wiper to keep crud out. I never chamfer the holes before threading for a dirty power screw application either. Let the sharp corners do the wiper thing. I assume you are talking about a purchased vise with the typical *relatively* sloppy threads. I'd use never sieze with moly disulfide or a dry lube like moly in a wet carrier or dry graphite powder for those. A vise screw has high loading during clamping and pounding while clamped. I consider a lubricant to be required for a vise screw to keep galling down. |
| - Tony who works in the lubrication business. - Thursday, 12/19/02 19:49:48 GMT |
|
Hi All! I've been wanting to put together a "bean can" forge in my basement for awhile now. Stopped at the hardware store today and picked up a small canister (same size as typical hand held propane torch) of "MPS" methylacetylyene propanid (?can't remember this one) gas. Is it hotter than propane? And will it work with my regular propane valve assembly? Thanks. |
| Tony Canevaro - Thursday, 12/19/02 19:53:50 GMT |
|
MAPP GAS Tony, MAPP is much hotter burning than propane. It is possible to melt kaowool with it. However, the BTU's in a given space have a lot to do with maximum temperature so if the core of the flame is not deflecting off the kaowool it may hold up. Try it and find out. We sell Kaowool by the foot. I'm still working on our forge "repair kits". They will probably have enough material including ITC-100 to make a bean-can forge. . . |
| - guru - Thursday, 12/19/02 20:41:48 GMT |
|
Thanks Jock. Next question, will it work with my regular hand propane bottle valve kit etc? |
| Tony Canevaro - Thursday, 12/19/02 20:50:03 GMT |
|
chainsaw oil .... frank ...what weight do you use on the power hammer, heavy, medium or light right now I'm using 90w gear oil on my 25#Kerrihard , but I noticed a gallon can of cream separater oil in the back of Kitt's General store that must be 40 years old and I was wondering.. it must be gear type oil...the price is right. old oil for an old machine |
| - lydia - Thursday, 12/19/02 20:57:43 GMT |
|
Tony, Yes, MAPP will work in a regular propane torch kit. I've been using it that way for over twenty years now. Never had a problem. |
| Paw Paw - Thursday, 12/19/02 21:04:01 GMT |
|
Guru, Do you sell the Koawool board as well as the blanket? If not, do you know of someone who sells small quantities, say by the square foot? Thanks. Patrick |
| Patrick Nowak - Thursday, 12/19/02 21:30:16 GMT |
|
I think I've heard someone saying they use steam cylinder oil in their self-contained hammer. Anyone know where to get such a thing? |
| - grant - Thursday, 12/19/02 23:02:50 GMT |
|
Kaowool HS Board and Options: Patrick, I have some 1" but it is very pricy stuff. I bought a single sheet from a broken carton at the wharehouse. . Full cartons are VERY pricy. . I would have to sell it at around $25/sq ft. in cut pieces . . the market may be pretty slim at that price. And I would probably have to set the dimensions so that there was not a lot of waste. 12 x 12, 12 x 6, 8 x 12, 6 x 8. Maybe not that many choices. An option I am looking at is a ceramic binder. Applied to regular Kaowool blanket it makes it stiff like the board product. I have bought a sample and I am playing with it. So far it works pretty well and it might be an economical option to board. It is another one of those things that must be purchased in large quantities to get a reasonable price on. . You don't want to know what the 1 pint sample cost me. The water based binder is soaked into the kaowool and allowed to air dry. Then it is cured by heating. The result is a hard lightweight refractory block or whatever shape you form it into. I bought it to mold some burner blocks from (more R&D). The binder has a higher temperature rating than the Kaowool so I suspect it raises the working temperature. It is thin enough that it only increases the density of the blanket slightly. Combined with an ITC-100 coating it should make fairly durable parts. |
| - guru - Thursday, 12/19/02 23:57:14 GMT |
|
Steam oil, Well Grant I happen to frequent many steam forums and easily found a guy that sells Cylesstic TK-1000, unfortunatly he will NOT ship it. Unless you live near Chester, New Jersey, he won't be of any help. He just bought a 55 gal drum of it and puts it into 5 gal containers. This link is for steam oils. Cylesstic is a "common" oil for steam cars. http://www.prod.exxon.com/exxon_lubes/tigerbytes/publicationslibrary/barpubslibrary.htm You would most likely need to purchase 55 gal of it, and pay for hazardess material handling. This is for compressor oils. http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/Your_Industry/Steel_Compressor_Oils_Collection.asp Since you are working with a air system I would supose that a oil made for compressors would be the most effecient and effective. This is not to say that steam oil would not be effective. If someone was using steam oil in there hammer I would suppose that it was left over from a steam hammer from somewhere and he thought hey it's oil for cylinders it should work. It most likely did, although as I hinted to before, it probaly didn't do the best job. Some of the guys here that are more in the know almost assurdly have specifics on which oil's are made for self-contained hammers. |
| Caleb Ramsby - Friday, 12/20/02 01:38:04 GMT |
|
Simply, put my question refers to getting into blacksmithing. Metal working with weaponary is something that interest me a great deal, not only weaponary really metal working overall I find fascinating. However, I'm not sure how I should go about getting into this. So I'm asking what I should due to get a start in it. Thank you kindly for any questions you ask, and may all of you be well and have a happy christmas season. |
| Justin Noel - Friday, 12/20/02 02:19:48 GMT |
|
Justin, Start at the beginning. Armor and bladesmithing are the most technical and demanding areas of smithing. Start with the basics, then study heat treating and metalurgy. Some art and history don't hurt either. Click the link at the bottom of this log, "Getting Started in Blacksmithing". |
| - guru - Friday, 12/20/02 02:49:01 GMT |
|
Guru, I wanted to share a technique I stumbled upon. Putting a handrail in a restored Victorian home the other day, of course just after the painters, finish carpenters, etc... We needed to heat a section of rail that had been welded in order to straighten and scale it to blend with the rest of the rail. We made a "shield out of a 1/4" masonite sheet and 18 ga. steel sheet. We sandwiched 1" of Kaowool between and were able heat to cherry red a six inch section 1 1/4" from a fine wood trim and the wall that had an "egg-shell" coat. No damage, great tool. Am thinking of making several more of different sizes and shapes to accomodate different conditions I.E. wall brackets, etc.. TC |
| Tim Cisneros - Friday, 12/20/02 03:11:11 GMT |
|
I would like to know who invented the tool the hammer and what year it was invented? Also the deffinition of a hammer. |
| all ciggi55 - Friday, 12/20/02 03:17:21 GMT |
|
all ciggi55l, We all would like to know that. The hammer was invented when some lonely cave man tied a rock to a stick so he could swing it futher. |
| Paw Paw - Friday, 12/20/02 03:49:45 GMT |
|
harder, not futher. |
| Paw Paw - Friday, 12/20/02 03:50:10 GMT |
|
Invention of the Hammer: all ciggi55, The hammer was invented by an ape who picked up a rock to smash a nut. The hammer with handle as we know it was invented by a man that we would think was more ape than man. Date? About four to five million years ago. A hammer is any heavy mass of hard substance used to strike another object. After the lever, the hammer is probably the oldest tool invented. |
| - guru - Friday, 12/20/02 04:13:35 GMT |
|
guru, When you consider that the handle of a hammer is actually a form of lever, it might be the first tool. Although someone may have used a branch to pry a rock away before that. Hard to tell, really. |
| Paw Paw - Friday, 12/20/02 04:27:38 GMT |
|
Techniques and Kaowool: Tim, That is an interesting coincedence. Today I sold a roll of 1/2" Kaowool to a contractor in OH that uses it over copper pipes while soldering to protect the adjacent (usualy wood) framing from catching fire. They use it as a consumable. It is a lot cheaper than accidently setting someone's home on fire. You didn't happen to take any pictures of the operation? Other applications we have sold Kaowool for: Fireplace chimney flue liner insulation. Machine component insulation. Model steam engine boiler insulation. Sweat Lodge rock furnace lining. Blacksmith forges Small melting furnaces |
| - guru - Friday, 12/20/02 04:27:42 GMT |
|
The Guru is just being modest. He invented the hammer and that's just one reason to join CSI and support him and Anvilfire. |
| - Pete F - Friday, 12/20/02 05:09:44 GMT |
|
I didn't realize that the guru's first name was Tubal Cain! Will wonders never cease? |
| Paw Paw - Friday, 12/20/02 05:14:20 GMT |
|
Ceramic fiber board. I found a place in Portland Oregon that sell it. I think they have a minimum of 4 square feet or something like that..... I bought a piece that was about 3 foot by 4 foot for about 50.00 USD about 4 years ago..... If I can find the name and phone number I will post it here |
| Ralph - Friday, 12/20/02 06:25:19 GMT |
|
Re the post about working at night. If you haven't tried working in the dark, turn off all the lights in your shop and try working only by forge light. You will throw away whatever you were working on the next morning. As for coal oil, that did not exist in the 18th century. You were basically stuck with fat lamps, or candles. Some limited work can be done by candle light, but candles were relatevely expensive and people tended to limit their use. Mostly, people worked when they could see by that big light in the sky. They also took time off to fish, hunt, visit picnic, attend gatherings. There is simply no good evidence that people worked all the time, any more than modern people do. There were also economic slowdowns and no work in the shop to be done. Nor was everyone ambitious enough to work as much as possible. There is pretty good evidence that people in the manufacturing trades in Englsnd effectively worked four or four and a half days each week in the 18th century. Tioraidh, Shel |
| Shel - Friday, 12/20/02 10:14:57 GMT |
|
Shel, of course working with charcoal and dark adjusted eyes helps a lot. (throw a bit of wood on top of the fire and you have better light source than most hovels did) I've done a bit of forging by the light of the forge and I didn't throw out the pieces. It was easier with even 1 candle-makes a pretty good light for the anvil. I wouldn't want to be doing a blade but much of the work of the smith in earlier years was not so picky. Also remember that working wrought iron your piece may be putting out a lot of light up there around yellow-white! It's easy to forget that with all the commonality with smithing through time there were some discrete changes in there as well. Thomas me beastie me do dat ting |
| - Thomas Powers - Friday, 12/20/02 13:56:24 GMT |
|
Work Day. George Sturt* talks about his work day in 1884, apprenticing as a wheelwright in England. Work started at 6:00 AM and ended at 6:00 PM, except on Saturday, work ended at 4:00 PM. If there was overtime work, there was tea time from 5:30 to 6:00, and the work continued till 8:00 PM. I suppose this was in the era of what we term, "The Work Ethic" or "The Protesant Ethic". The Old Hammer. I believe the archeologists would call a hammer a tool of "direct percussion". If another tool was held between the hammer and the workpiece, it was a tool of "indirect percussion". Took a long time for mankind to discover the indirect tool. We teach it the first day at school. I'm minded of a story Peter Ross shared. He was in Texas, and during a demo break, a teenaged boy approached him to share that the boy's grandpa had invented the cold chisel. Peter was so taken aback by this astounding news, that he agreed with the young man and told him he should be very proud of his grandpa's accomplishment. A veritable diplomat. * "The Wheelwright's Shop" by George Sturt, Cambridge University Press, 1963. 1st Edition, 1923. |
| Frank Turley - Friday, 12/20/02 14:19:16 GMT |
|
Working in the Dark. David Duckett is a farrier, originally from Britain, who is a demonstrator at horseshoeing gatherings. He apparently trained himself to make horseshoes in the dark. By constant, repeated effort, he was able to make incredibly fine-looking shoes. |
| Frank Turley - Friday, 12/20/02 14:32:00 GMT |
|
Shel: I wasn't implying that this was standard practice at all times and all places, but it was done, and so should be considered. (Trust me; people wouldn't complain about blacksmiths NOT working at night and NOT making noise...) Also, just because you are able to work at night doesn't mean that you started at sunrise. It would all depend upon the circumstances and incentives. Historic lighting was not limited to candles and oil lamps. See: http://www.markland.org/lettherebelight.php . A probable lighting brazier was also found with the Mastermyr tools from the late Viking age. The number of candles one was willing to burn would probably be related to the profit margins and deadlines of the work. I’ve worked at night with primitive technology and with passable results. The point that I was trying to make (perhaps clumsily) was: that there was no set answer in earlier periods; that sunrise to sunset was not a hard and fast rule; and that time was a different concept. (We joke that the secret to Viking navigation is that they didn't have to be home for work on Monday morning- you were where you were, and staying alive WAS the job.) One scholar computed that, if you threw in all of the feast days and Sunday, the medieval peasant had every third day off. I'm sure that I could pull a number of references to night work in the blacksmith's trade, and whether it was common or not, and under what circumstances it was done; but I'm not the one writing the paper. ;-) On the other claw, most guilds strictly regulated/forbid working at night or in low-light conditions, in part because of the possibility of inferior craftsmanship that you observed. Rainy and warm on the banks of the Potomac. Visit your National Parks: www.nps.gov Go viking: www.wam.umd.edu/~eowyn/Longship/ |
| Bruce Blackistone (Atli) - Friday, 12/20/02 14:41:08 GMT |
|
Work Hours in 18th and 19th Century England: During this period English merchants provided the entire world (or at least all the English colonies) with finished goods. Many of these were produced in the "cottage" industry or by what we call "homeworkers" today. Under this system many rural folks that were also subsistance farmers were given materials to convert to finished goods. Many of these items were very labor intensive such as making files. Cottage workers making files for the famous Stubbs brand were given steel bars which they forged, annealed, ground hand scraped and then hand cut every tooth with a cold chisel and a heavy curved handled hammer. The finished but soft files were returned to Stubbs where they were hardened. These were family businesses where everyone that could took part in the process. Child labor was used for much of the grinding and scraping to prepare the blanks. Often these were seasonal jobs done when the farming was not absorbing the entire day. This meant the work was done primarily in the winter, indoors, in cramped dark and poorly heated shops or in the living area of the home. There are no records of the actual hours OR how many hours children contributed to this process. These were jobs for desperate people and they would have worked as long as possible. In fact they were forced to by their economic conditions. Because of the abuses of long hours and low pay by women and children in cottage industries up until the twentieth century, we have laws preventing businesses from employing "homeworkers" as well as child labor laws. Abuse was rampant and 12 hour days were NOT unusual. With the advent of the home computer and the virtual electronic office or "electronic commuting" there have been many arguments about the use of "homeworkers" in modern business. The problem is that outside of an observable workplace the abuses can occur. SO, how many hours do *I* work in my office as a self employed "home worker" and blacksmith to keep anvilfire going? On the average day 12 hours, but it is not unusual for me to spend 16 hours a day in order to keep up with everything. . . But these are usualy days where I have taken off a few hours the day before. My average anvilfire week is 84 hours or more. That is 4380 hours a year compared to the 8 hour 5 day a week worker that averages 2020 hours a year. Like the homeworker of the past my survival depends on the long hours I put in. As for working in the dark. . In heavy forge shops of old the light came from forges which even with doors shed brilliant light from the cracks. White hot pieces of steel do not need to be very large to shed brittiant light. Generaly TOO much light was the problem. And, any smith that forges iron past the point where it sheds enough light to be easily seen in the dark is a fool. Anyone that says you cannot do perfectly beautiful forge work in the dark has never worked at the forge more than a few hours. At the last demo I did at Atli's farm during Camp Fenby last summer we worked by forge light well into the dark and nearly until midnight. In fact, I was wearing a pair of our #2 shade safety glasses because they cut down on the glare and made it easier to see in the dark! Anyone that has been to any large blacksmith gathering where there are open forges also knows that forging goes on well into the night by nothing more than the the glow of the fires and the hot steel. THEN there are are many friends that live near the artic circle. Places where the winter daylight is only a few haours a day. In order to survive many things are done in the "dark" by marginal firelight. Modern electric lighting has skewed how we think about how people worked in the past. |
| - guru - Friday, 12/20/02 16:37:36 GMT |
|
Working in the dark: Well, I have done a lot of forging after dark set in. Granted this has been outside under the stars and the MOON. If you live in a city and don't get out much then you will probably be asking, "What stars, the moon produces light?". Yes, moon light is very adventages to night work, especially when the work does not involve a fire. I have a book entitled "Diary of an Early American Boy", written by Eric Sloane. The boys name is Noah Blake. In it the kid states that one day his father told him that they would be taking an early break and begin working again when the moon rose. They were shingling a roof and the work was very profecient. I had never thought of wearing shades at night, at first it seems counter intuitive, but from my experience looking directly into the forge even for a moment distorts ones vision for a while and can almost blind you when your eyes have adjusted to the low light. I do LOVE working metal at night under the stars, to me there are few thing more beutifull than hot metal glowing and being moved in the dark. Sometimes I have to catch myself because I will inadvertantly pull out the metal and just stare in aww. And yes, I can make good work in the "dark". For me the worst lighting situation is a shop that is right in the middle, where the artificial light is just barely brighter than the forge and metal, probably just my eyes. |
| Caleb Ramsby - Friday, 12/20/02 17:27:15 GMT |
|
Caleb, > For me the worst lighting situation is a shop that is right in the middle, where the artificial light is just barely brighter than the forge and metal, probably just my eyes. You're not alone in this. During the day, I frequently turn off the lights in my shop and just leave the door open. And Jock can tell you that my shop is not brightly lighted. Bruce, Jock, and Caleb, Thank you for your further definition of working conditions. I deliberately didn't respond to Shel's post. Those of you who know me will understand why. |
| Paw Paw - Friday, 12/20/02 17:35:27 GMT |
|
"any smith that forges iron past the point where it sheds enough light to be easily seen in the dark is a fool" *NO*! Wrought iron works better at elevated temps and working it at yellow is a *suggested* technique---I was replying about working wrought iron, not modern steels and wrought iron works very well at elevated temps that would leave A36 burning like a sparkler. As we were discussing earlier times, wrought iron would have been the norm. (Moxon does discuss the various heats used for smithing in the late 17th early 18th century) Thomas a fool for wrought iron |
| - Thomas Powers - Friday, 12/20/02 17:59:41 GMT |
|
Gage Tables: Am I going crazy, or did I see tables converting ferrous and non-ferrous metal gages to decimal inches on this site? I’ve bashed all over the menu here and at the two other sites I victimize on a regular basis, but I can’t seem to turn it up. I also checked my links (filed under “Heavy Metal”) and no luck there, either. ?????? |
| Bruce Blackistone (Atli) - Friday, 12/20/02 18:00:16 GMT |
|
Caleb I agree that working at night by the light of the moon and stars is a pleasure. Separates you from the troubles of the day, and lets you concentrate on the job at hand. Only thing better is a large fluffy snow flakes slowly falling while you forge. |
| - Ntech - Friday, 12/20/02 18:05:20 GMT |
|
Smowflakes???? Never! First snowflake I see anywhere within gunshot of my forge and I'm moving further South. Moonlight forging I love, starlight is fine, firelight is best...but no snowflakes! Rainy and chilly (74ºF), almost too cold to do anything but forging. |
| vicopper - Friday, 12/20/02 18:44:52 GMT |
|
Thank You, Caleb, that's a great help! |
| - grant - Friday, 12/20/02 19:03:26 GMT |
|
Thomas, you mis-understood the guru. You went the wrong direction when you visualized what he meant. He meant that anyone who worked it in the dark after it had cooled to where it could no longer be see, I think. |
| Paw Paw - Friday, 12/20/02 19:03:34 GMT |
|
Gages Atli, The only ones we have here are a few in a small table on a drawing of a forge hood on the plans page. Best source of that info is your MACHINERY'S HANDBOOK. . but you probably don't have one in your office. . . :( |
| - guru - Friday, 12/20/02 19:12:55 GMT |
|
Grant, it was a pleasure. Paw Paw, it's good to know that I am not the only one. Ntech, as a matter of fact that is how I got started. Stars, moon, snowflakes, mabey a candle or 2 and since I was more ignorant at the time, an 8' tall spiral of sparks flying out of the forge. I was using charcoal bricket at the time, I would not endorse these. grin Thomas, it is my belief that the good Guru was talking about hammering iron that is BELOW the temperature that can be seen in the dark. I have smithed with a guy that was an early beginer and caught him hammering and using a scroll fork on the metal when it went to black. When I told him it needed another heat, that he would cause cracks when hammering iron below it's forging temperature and should aneal it before going any further or throw it away. He just smiled and kept on working. Then again I once caught him using a bick(a small one you put into the hardie) with the tip shoved into the pritchel while a fuller occupied the hardie hole. If they had been my tools he would have been punched . . . and should have been anyways. |
| Caleb Ramsby - Friday, 12/20/02 19:23:18 GMT |
|
Frank, I find that I am working in the dark even when the lights are on. |
| - Quenchcrack - Friday, 12/20/02 20:59:31 GMT |
|
Ok, I can see it that way too. I got into forging through bladesmithing where overheating can be a major problem---it *still* takes an act of will for me to heat wrought iron up to where it likes to be---so good Guru---*Nevermind*! Caleb; I'd refuse to work with a fellow like that---misusing the tools and metal can cause problems that *you* get to participate in---don't you just hate to have a fellow flip you a hot piece to juggle while your back is turned! I do a lot of raw newbie teaching---walk ups at SCA events and I have now had 2 folks in the last 20 years that I refused to teach for safety reasons. One would listen to what I said and do the exact opposite. The other never made it to the forge. I told him not to throw his trash in my scrap barrel/post vise stand and when he did it anyway cause "there was already trash in it" I ran him off to the other side of the rope. Thomas |
| - Thomas Powers - Friday, 12/20/02 22:47:28 GMT |
|
back in july when i got my forge and anvil the only place i could work was on the back of my fathers property, and since it was in a semi residential neighborhood i was restricted to working during daylight hours... it was rather rough, not being able to see the colors of the metal, not really knowing when the forge was running too hot etc.. a couple months ago me and duncan_sca from this website started getting together on teusday mornings and forging in his garage, it is quite a bit darker in there and my work has greatly improved (still quite the novice but now i have forge welded and made rather nice looking scrolls and even repared a couple of pairs of tongs, along side duncan) everyone here at anvilfire has been a great help! and i plan on joining csi asap thanks everyone! |
| Mike Kruzan - Saturday, 12/21/02 00:02:20 GMT |
|
Walking in the shop after lunch one day, I found one of my neophytes pouring linseed oil out of a gallon can onto his warm iron to give it a finish. There was a big puddle of oil on the dirt floor and on his boots. ¡¡Ay,Chihuahua!! |
| Frank Turley - Saturday, 12/21/02 00:05:21 GMT |
|
Greetings from icy Quebec. I am in semi-retirement. My little forge is finally installed, my torches rebuilt and like new, and my faithful Lincoln welder wired up properly. I find the new, 110v core-wire welders very affordable. However, long ago, I remember that the one I briefly used on my farm welding course had inert gas, not core flux. Is there anyone that could tell me if such a welder can be of use for a hobbyist who wants to weld thin sheet metal and repair small articles but only on an intermittent basis, and with less skill than a full-time welder? Brazing does not always fill the bill. Thanks for your time, and the best of health and peace to all in the new year. |
| gary callaghan - Saturday, 12/21/02 00:06:08 GMT |
|
Gary, I bought the Miller 110 with flux core wire. It worked, and worked fairly well. But I wanted the versatility of the inert gas shield, so purchased the add on kit. Now I can use it with gas, or with flux core wire, either one. |
| Paw Paw - Saturday, 12/21/02 01:04:08 GMT |
|
My little sister's(21) x-boyfriend was discussing with me once that he had always wanted to forge his dream ax. Mind you he had never struck hot metal before and his dream ax was a 120# thing about as tall as a person. He showed up one night(he was dating my sister at the time) when I had the forge going and tried to get me to let him use my forge to make this ax. Well first I asked him what he knew about heat treating, what metal he would use and if he would punch the massive hole or fold and weld the blade. Although he owns over 100 knives, he couldn't answer any of these questions. Well, I suggested that he try to make a small hatchet before the 120# ax and a wall hook before the hatchet. He didn't seem to like this idea, but I handed him a hammer and told him "Even an idiot deserves a chance to learn." He tried to make a knife out of a bolt. Needless to say he never used my forge again. Excuse the rant, but sometimes. . . |
| Caleb Ramsby - Saturday, 12/21/02 02:21:02 GMT |
|
Caleb, Some people are strange. You can teach them, but you can't teach them much! (grin) |
| Paw Paw - Saturday, 12/21/02 02:56:51 GMT |
|
Hey Mike, and Justin, and other SCA types. Where are you at? I am in north central Indiana, near Purdue University. The Barony of Rivenstar, in the Middle Kingdom... If I am lucky my new hammer will get here before the end of the year:-) Bull Hammer Technologies is getting caught up on their backlog of orders:-) (Sorry about the chatty stuff Jock:-) Merelion's Lair Forge |
| Fionnbharr - Saturday, 12/21/02 03:04:01 GMT |
|
It reallly is hard to explain to people in the most undestanding and diplomatic terms, that their desire is completely unrealistic, and that blacksmithing is a large set of highly developed skills that all revolve around bending metal to your will. The will and the desire are not enough on their own, you have to take the time to aquire the knowledge and the skill to do anything with metal. It is not a very forgiving material:-) We always called the results of more ambition than skill a potatoe:-) |
| Fionnbharr - Saturday, 12/21/02 03:09:55 GMT |
|
Gary, I still use my oxy-acetylene for all sorts of small stuff. It's slower than arc, but it's so much fun! I've gas welded lots of sheet metal, making allowances of course, for expansion and contraction. There is a vignette in "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenace" about welding sheet metal with gas. |
| Frank Turley - Saturday, 12/21/02 03:32:51 GMT |
|
Oh ye gods! We've broken out in Scadians! (Crusty old Marklander goes mumbling away into the night, planning more cook pots, shield bosses and spearheads.) I have to admit that most newcomers' ambitions outrun their abilities. I know mine still do. The other factor is that most of these folks have no idea of how much time it takes to learn to do a good job, and then how much time it takes just to do a good job. If I gave up the Park Service, longships, medieval reenacting, newspapers, church and family I could probably start catching up. Ah well, I may die of exhaustion, but I'll never die of boredom. Visit your National Parks: www.nps.gov Go viking: www.wam.umd.edu/~eowyn/Longship/ |
| Bruce Blackistone (Atli) - Saturday, 12/21/02 04:13:28 GMT |
|
Paw Paw, you are absolutly correct. So many people: I have always favored ambition, it is one of those great things that keep our souls awake. It is the people whos goal in life(usualy out of their control and from birth) is to retain as much ignorance as possible, while making up their own reality and using said reality to poison the minds of others who are at the fork in the road. One way ignorance and bliss, the other enlightenment and uncontrolable contemplation of the wonders of the world. Well, my agressive stance on this mentality is one of the reasons that I have become a member of CSI. Trying to help the good Guru fight the ever-powerfull "anti-gurus" that are ever present(theres one now, quick hold up that Machinery's Handbook, it weakens them!) and explain to the victims of the "anti-gurus" that it is not their fault, they just had an "inteletctual/information molestation" occur. And that it will be alright. So fight the good fight and support this great weapon of knowledge known as ANVILFIRE and it's weilder(sp) known only as the Guru to the best of your ability. P.E.S. Captain Overboard is throwing off the sink weights and will most likely get the bends soon. . . |
| Caleb Ramsby - Saturday, 12/21/02 06:55:20 GMT |
|
Caleb, Take ten deep breaths of coal smoke to ward of the bends. (grin) |
| Paw Paw - Saturday, 12/21/02 13:23:18 GMT |
|
"Even an idiot deserves a chance to learn." Caleb, that is the funniest line I've heard in a long time. Do you mind if I borrow it occasionally? I'd like to chant it under my breath when I do absurd things in the shop. |
| Gronk - Saturday, 12/21/02 16:46:21 GMT |
|
Calab, On that guy with the large ax. He wanted you to do it of course. Just my two cents worth William |
| triw - Saturday, 12/21/02 17:08:48 GMT |
|
flux core welders - Gary if you buy one of the good brands they can indeed do MIG welding with gas shielding. Lincoln offers a little wire feed welder that can be upgraded. Miller and Hobarts 110v wire feed come ready set up for gas and are, IMO, much better made then the equivalent Lincoln. I have the Hobart 135 and I just love it |
| adamada - Saturday, 12/21/02 17:38:57 GMT |
|
Steel Ball Breakers: A friend of mine used to call the pair of partners he worked for "steel ball breakers". It didn't matter what they touched, old or new they could break it without trying. There are some folks that are just LIKE that. I have known a few and I do not believe they can be taught out of their condition. They were probably breaking toys when they were 4 and by the time they are adults they have a LONG history of breaking things. It is in their nature, it is their character. They are VERY dangerous in metal working shops, especialy those like our blacksmith shops full of antique machinery. Steel Ball Breakers are second cousins to the Machine Molesters I mentioned recently. They do things like crank the valves down so tight on your new welding torch so that they will never again seal right (all it takes is ONE time, and they do it the FIRST time). These are the folks that have shifted every machine they touched into back gear without taking it out of direct drive first. . . This breaks off a hand full of gear teeth that will cost more to repair than can be afforded so almost every old machine tool has useless broken back gears. The Steel Ball Breakers bolt tightening mantra is "Tighten until it strips then back off half a turn. Tighten until it . . ." These are the same folks that BELIEVE the red line on tachometers is the normal shift point and that "PARK" on an automatic transmission is the same the brakes. Steel Ball Breakers are the reason that most unbreakable warrantees have the "except in case of abuse" line". They are the folks that pick up your favorite hammer in in a blink of an eye return it with a broken or splintered handle or the face deeply mared from pounding on SOMETHING harder than the hammer. In our shops with carefully restored old machine tools that could survive and be useful for many more generations the Steel Ball Breakers are the death knell. These folks are like "Calamity Jane" and things just "happen" over and over and over. . . They never just burn up the motor on ONE machine, or break the handle off ONE machine, they will eventualy break every thing that can be broken in your shop. These are also the same people that repeatedly get hurt on the job and know more about lawyers and the insurance system than you ever will (or want to). The superstitious call these folks a "jinx". But there is no superstition in being just plain dangerous. And all we can do is try to avoid them and keep them out of our shops. |
| - guru - Saturday, 12/21/02 17:42:55 GMT |
|
I have found the most affective talisman for geting rid of the intentionaly ignorant. when one walks up and ask's to learn give them a list of books to read... boy do they hate that... they hate it even more when you tell them you will let them use the forge the next time if they have read at least one of the books on your list. and just becouse it is harder to shut me up about smithing than it is to get me to talk about it. I love to give LONG involved overly indepth ancers to questions (I have to force my self to keep it short at demos :(>) they don't seem to like that much. I think that type would only be happy if they could get a comlpet mind dump in less than 5 Min. sorry for the rant ... got my hackels up it did. MP |
| MP - Saturday, 12/21/02 17:51:01 GMT |
|
Paw Paw, I wonder if charcoal would substitute. grin Gronk, Sure, use it all you want, I had never thought of it as a mantra before. I should write a song entitled "Even an idiot deserves a chance to learn." Going to go tune up my 12 string. William, Yeah, I was starting to get that feeling. Good grief, with only hand hammers that would have taken me a month, I can see it now, "Well, since this involved so much labor and a hernia, I will trade you your truck for the ax." |
| Caleb Ramsby - Saturday, 12/21/02 17:54:40 GMT |
|
All knowing and Sorcerer of the Cyberic Prairie,please tell me if I were to purchase a powerhammer,like the small "The Bull",which requires a minimum of 20 c.f.m.,at 90lbs. to run constantly,as per the company,how mite it run with on 15 c.f.m.,at 90lbs.,used not constantly????I present have a I-R air compressor doing just that.I saw the powerhammer,at a demo,at a fellow P.A.B.A.members shop and I really liked the control it had with the user.Thanks for your time,Buberoo. |
| BUB - Saturday, 12/21/02 18:00:01 GMT |
|
MP, these are the same people I give the "That engine needs a can of compression" treatment. Sending them off on a wild dragonfly chase. Books are these peoples enemy, it weakens them. Steel Ball Breakers: I have been friends with a family of this type. The frightening thing is that everyone they have know, even the school bus, has had every one of their vehicles break down at their property at some point. Then again when Nick, the grandpa, was still alive, you had to keep an eye out because he had a tendancy to spontainiasly start torching and welding on your vehicle if he didn't like the way it was built. He, I actualy respected, because he would "fix" the stuff that he broke. |
| Caleb Ramsby - Saturday, 12/21/02 18:14:55 GMT |
|
Caleb: I've always used the "piston return spring" goose chase on the dullards. I NEVER let any one use, or borrow, a tool unless: They can afford to buy a new one if they break it. Or: Are smart (and talented) enough to fix it if they break it. Guru: Heard way too many back-gears grind in my life, especially on the Bridgeport J1's -- head gear would "stick" and not drop correctly... Grrrrrrr |
| Zero - Saturday, 12/21/02 20:18:05 GMT |
|
Hello, i was wondering if anyone could help me out. Im planning on doing some forks and spoons in the near future and i was wondering which stainless steel alloy would be good to use in terms of looks, price, and forgeability. Also what kind of finishing techniques are necessary to get a good polish, or at least a finish that isnt sandblasted or only wire brushed? Any help would be appreciated. Thanks! |
| mike - Saturday, 12/21/02 20:56:01 GMT |
|
mike- I've forged a few utensils out of readily available 304 stainless, and it works about as good as anything else I've tried. NO stainless is easy to forge, and all of them are a bear to polish. I haven't found any substitute for lots of elbow grease when it comes to polishing the stuff. Files first, then progressively finer grits of silicon carbide abrasive paper. Stainless will develop firescale when heated to forging temperatures, and it can be difficult to remove. I've been experimenting with a crude form of electropolishing to remove the scale and passivate the surface. The passivation is absolutely necessary or the stainless won't be stainless. For stainless to be "rustproof", it relies on a layer of chromium oxide on the surface, and no free iron. Up until recently, the standard method of passivation involved pickling in a nitric acid/hydrofluoric acid/potassium chromate bath. That solution is toxic, dangerous, and environmentally unfriendly. Most places are now using a citric acid pickling bath for passivation. I haven't yet tried that, since no one here sells citric acid. (I guess no one here does home canning anymore.) My preliminary results with my homemade electropolishing setup are very promising, and I'm still working on improving it. The objective is to get it to where it can be done with materials available anywhere and be relatively simple to set up and operate. I'm about half way there, I think, and I'll post the complete method, with all the requisite disclaimers and warnings, when I get it finalized. In the meantime, I'd suggest pickling in a 10% by weight solution of citric acid in distilled water at 100ºF for about half an hour. According to what I've read, that should do it. I don't know if that will remove firescale, though. As I said, I haven't tried it. BTW- 304 stainless is 18% Cr, 8% Ni, and is what much commercial tablewear is made of. |
| vicopper - Saturday, 12/21/02 22:08:33 GMT |
|
mike- I neglected to mention that when you finish the sanding, (down to 320 grit or finer), then you buff it with a high quality muslin or hemp buffing wheel and stainless steel buffing compound. DO NOT buff regular steel with the same wheel, or it will be irrevocably contaminated and will cause your stainless to rust. The same goes for wire wheels/brushes...they must be stainless steel or they will contaminate the surface with iron. I'm told there is a new type of buffing wheel on the market now that is superior to the fabric types, but I'm not familiar with it. Jock will probably know about it, though. |
| vicopper - Saturday, 12/21/02 22:14:18 GMT |
|
Smaller Air Hammer Bub, if they are still in business the Trip Air made in North Carolina has a 40 pound ram and SHOULD be the most frugal of the fabricated air hammers made. However, I believe they TOO recommend a 5HP compressor. It may have a 40 pound ram (compared to 90's and 125's) but it runs faster. . . See our Manufacturer's list and back issues of the Anvil's Ring. They never advertised here and do not have a web site that I know of. |
| - guru - Saturday, 12/21/02 22:30:44 GMT |
|
Small Air Hammer... A correction Bub. The Bull 75 prefers 20-25 CFM @150 PSI. You CAN run it on a 5hp 2 stage compressor, and it will work, but not to its full potential. If you are mainly working on smaller stock, and using top tools, and some clappers you might be happy with the proformance running a little lean on air. But you will not be able to forging large sections of 1"< square stock, atleast not in one heat like it should. For production work on any level I would upgrade my compressor. Because running an undersized compressor can cause extra wear and tear on the compressor. A compressor that is designed for an intermitant duty cycle generally doesn't hold up too well, when asked to run continuiously for a few hours straight in a 100+ degree shop (summer time, large forge, HOT compressor=burnt compressor:-) I bit the bullet and got a 7.5hp light industrial compressor. But the good news is that Bull Hammer Technologies is almost completely caught up on their backlog of orders. Mine should ship before the end of the year(YAH!!!:-) If you are handy and ambitious you could always build your own, and scale it to the air consumpution rate you have. There are the Kenyon plans and a number of websites that discuss the technical aspects of building and tuning a hammer. If you don't want to build your own there are a number of guys that sell home built hammers on small websites, by looking through the webring, and doing a little creative websearching you should bring up a few guys. I would of course check them out with references, and their local groups, but it is another option...(Sorry I don't have any urls, I didn't save my bookmarks, in my last system upgrade, urgh:-) If you are near a major city with industry, there should be a used machinery dealer, and you might be able to get a nice used 3phase industrial compressor for the price of a new 7.5 hp (not chump change, but still a good deal:-) I could have gotten a 20hp Quincy industrial compressor at Morris Rezman Machinery, in Chicago for around 1400$, but I don't have 3 phase, and I didn't have the change for a phase converter too... If you have a rental center, that is going out of business or that has periodic sales to get rid of older equipment you could pick up a desiel towbehind compressor that they run jack hammers off of they are normall 100+CFM machines. You can run a big hammer off of one of those:-) Highway garage auctions can also net some decent equipment as well... I have been lusting after a BULL air hammer for years, and I should have mine set up and running in less than two weeks... (The proper foundation will have to wait until spring:-) Sorry if this gets double posted... |
| Fionnbharr - Sunday, 12/22/02 03:38:51 GMT |
|
Caleb, If they were capable of learning, they woundn't be idiots. Cast not your pearls before swine. Guru, et al, I plan to forge some hardy tools from 1/2"x2"x8" A36. I will reduce the 2" width to about 1", leaving a 2" x2" section on top and fold the tang double to insert into the hardy hole. Would it be any quicker to cut in from the edge 1/2" just under the full-width section? Or just reduce it and seat it hot into the hardy to get the square shoulder? Last question: What is the origin of the terms "pritchel" and "hardy"? |
| Quenchcrack - Sunday, 12/22/02 13:42:07 GMT |
|
QC- I would try to avoid any sharp corners at the junction of the shank and the head of the tool, they will be stress risers and may crack under use. For my hardie tools, I usually take a piece of square stock that will drop in the hardie hole and upset the end of it to get the necessary stock to forge the head. I let the upsetting fatten the shank until it is a tight fit in the hole, then heat it hot and drive it in until it seats. This gives a good fit when it cools and shrinks a bit, and it also creates a chamfered shoulder that avoids stress risers. I believe I learned this method from something Frank Turley posted a while back. |
| vicopper - Sunday, 12/22/02 15:47:22 GMT |
|
Vic, thanks, I don't have any 1" square stock so I am using what I have, which is 1/2" plate. Avoiding the square corners is always a good idea and my hardy hole has chamfered edges that will allow me to radius the corners. I was just curious if it would be easier to sawcut down to the 1" tang to get a shoulder or to just forge it in. In thinking more about it, I will forge it in as this will cause the banded grain structure to flow around the section change rather than cutting across it. This will help avoid what is, in effect, a metallurgical notch in the corners. |
| Quenchcrack - Sunday, 12/22/02 16:20:07 GMT |
|
Hardy and Pritchel: Derived from olde English and have no known reference to anything else. See FAQ's/Glossary : English. You didn't say what kind of tools you are making. I'll assume it is not a hardy because you are using mild steel. Short set tools and dies can have loose fitting shanks because all the shank does is keep the tool from bouncing off the anvil. Taller bick tools, forks and saddles need relatively snug fitting shanks. Cutting with hot chisel or torch is faster than forging if you are working alone without a helper or power hammer. Removing stock is an efficient but wasteful method. In the past as little stock as posible was removed in all types of metalworking. But today steel is cheaper than manhours thus stock removal (triming, chipmaking, grinding) is considered the more efficient method. As VI noted, avoid sharp corners. The best fillet size is always the largest one that will fit the given circumstances. |
| - guru - Sunday, 12/22/02 16:20:30 GMT |
|
Shanks: I forgot to mention that ROUND shanks are also desirable on tools that you may want to rotate out of the way or use at odd angles relative to the anvil. Don't be a square. . think ROUND. |
| - guru - Sunday, 12/22/02 16:38:01 GMT |
|
According to my dictionaries, "pritchel" is a variation of the word, "prickle", ie., something sharp and pointed, as a thorn or goad. It is a farrier's nail hole punch. I can't find out much about "hardy". One dictionary states it is probably from the word, "hard". Another dictionary suggests it is from the French, "hardi", but I don't know. The French word connotes the same as our everyday use of "hardy", meaning bold, strong, and audacious. I love etymology; I may find out more. |
| Frank Turley - Sunday, 12/22/02 17:10:25 GMT |
|
Forged vs. Machined Corners: For many years the forging industry has sold the world on grain flow around corners on everything. And I agree that forged is best in almost every case. However a study comparing bolts with forged heads vs. screw machine bolts showed that in some cases stock removal is better. In bolt heading, even when there appears to be an adequate fillet, the grain is pinched at the corner. Under high stress this results in a weaker bolt than machined from solid. When doing a large upset such as making a shanked anvil tool it is easiest to start with a slightly oversized piece, fuller to locate the shoulder, forge down the shank to size forming a small shoulder, then upseting in a swage block or bolster plate. I prefer upsetting anywhere other than the hardy hole because my American and London pattern anvils have the hardy hole out on the heal where it it poorly supported. German pattern and particularly the original Austrian pattern anvils have deep hardy and punching holes next to the body of the anvil where they are supported better and thus are better for upsetting. The worst are the American and farrier's pattern anvils with very thin heals. The hardy hole is so far beyond the feet that heavy blows will tip the anvil. |
| - guru - Sunday, 12/22/02 17:18:19 GMT |
|
Frank. . That would make sense that the "hardy" is not English since that is where everyone has looked for it. . The Oxford English dictionary was no help. . . I've read the page and a half (very fine print) a couple times. . . and recently had a similar query from a schollar in England looking for the origin of the term. I blew it on Pritchel. . Need to add to glossary. . |
| - guru - Sunday, 12/22/02 17:23:22 GMT |
|
Vicopper if you need citric acid, could you use that citric based cleaning fluid (degreaser) or failing that what about lemon juice? |
| MP - Sunday, 12/22/02 17:26:58 GMT |
|
Lemon juice.... Hmm... I wonder if Real Lemon would work. Might be a good source, if it does. I just came back from the kitchen. It tastes right. I'll stick a piece of 1/4" round in a glass overnight and report tomorrow. |
| Paw Paw - Sunday, 12/22/02 18:12:54 GMT |
|
QuenchCrack: If you really want to cut it as described, don't cut 1/2" deep, only go about 3/8" deep. Also, you'll need to make two cuts from each side: one straight in to form the intended shoulder and a second at around 45 degrees so your forging won't cause a fold or cold shut. In other words you want to take out a "dart" or triangle on each side. The reason for going 3/8" deep is that when you forge there will be a little bit of "drag-down" of the 1" dimension and you want to leave a little room for a radius too. A piece of 1-1/4" round can be forged to 1" square pretty easy, then upset the shoulder by hammering in the hardie hole. Glad the Guru mentioned loose and tight fitting tools. I like a cut-off hardie to come out easy so I can get it out of the way quickly (dangerous thing to have sticking up whan you're hammering and moving all over the anvil trying to attach something just the right way). On the other hand, forming tools like bicks, etc. work best if held fimly in place. |
| - grant - Sunday, 12/22/02 18:35:30 GMT |
|
Guru et al, thanks for the input. Nope, not gonna make a cut off out of A36, just a few fullers and maybe a leaf pattern or two. I have some 1" 5160 that I hope can be made into a proper cut off. As for the swage block, well, I don't have one of those either. My problem is that I do not have much of a scrap pile...and everything I drag home from the plant is in sheet or plate form. I'm gonna spend some time browsing through our scrap pile next to the melt shop. There has to be some heavier sections in there somewhere. I did find a 7" long x 4" dia. piece of 4140 shaft material that would make a nice anvil cone if I can bribe someone in the Central Shop to turn it for me. Seems like a cone could live with a round shank for the hardy hole. |
| Quenchcrack - Sunday, 12/22/02 19:16:01 GMT |
|
QuenchCrack - Didnt you just buy a new buzzbox? Well this is what it's for! Get yourself a few feet of 1" sq tubing and weld stingers onto your hardy tools. Life is too short to be upsetting heavy stock by hand. I usually cut off 4" of tubing, heat up one end and hammer it to form a short bevel to take the weld bead and weld it onto the hardy tool |
| adam - Sunday, 12/22/02 19:17:11 GMT |
|
Grain Flow. Some say that the grain flow pattern helps make a forged blade better than a blade made by metal removal. I don't think anyone has proven it, however. OK, prove me wrong. |
| Frank Turley - Sunday, 12/22/02 19:19:30 GMT |
|
Quenchcrack: If you want to be more "authentic", you should use fullers or a spring fuller to make the "cuts" into the sides of t |