| WELCOME to the anvilfire Guru's Den - V. 3.0 |
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THIS is a forum for questions and answers about blacksmithing and general metalworking. Ask the Guru any reasonable question and he or one of his helpers will answer your question, find someone that can, OR research the question for you. This is an archive of posts from December 1 - 7, 2006 on the Guru's Den |
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Thumper, Do some loooking around on the 'net and you should find a picture of a cute little powerhammer that Pete Renzetti made. It uses actual hand hammers and is driven by a variable speed motor, has adjustable anvil height, etc. A bit bigger than the lady of the house's sewing machine, but not a lot. Pete uses it for chasing and repousse work. |
| vicopper - Friday, 12/01/06 00:10:12 EST |
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Thumper, I found a couple pics of Pete's hammer on my 'puter and emailed them to you. |
| vicopper - Friday, 12/01/06 00:14:21 EST |
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Hey guys, I have a question for you all. I have received an order for some custom cabinet handles/pulls with a bark texture on them. I was wondering what would be the best finish to use on these to prevent and /or keep the rust to a minimum. The stock is 5/8" round mild steel bar, and the finish may either be wire brushed or not (its a detail that I and the customer are trying to work out). Anyways, I appreciate any advice you can toss my way. Thanks! Ian |
| Ian Wille - Friday, 12/01/06 00:21:44 EST |
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How should I charge for my work by the hour or by the job if by the hour how much? I have only been smithing for a couple years and havent begun to learn the half of it. I do mostly decorative work. and I want to be paid for what it is worth but I dont want somebody to feel ripped off. I know this isn't a one ansewer question I would just like to have some idea. Thanks |
| Sharp - Friday, 12/01/06 01:30:05 EST |
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Ian, Here's an idea that may work well for you instead of bare metal and a spray on sealer . I made some refrigerator and freezer handles for a gal and I colored them with a "plumb brown" rifle barrel solution. This is an accelerated rust that is a real rich dark chocolate color. To seal, I reheated slightly and applied bees wax then buffed. They've stayed the original color over time with no discoloration. |
| Thumper - Friday, 12/01/06 02:02:09 EST |
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Sharp - I think, and others may or may not agree, the most fair way to price Your work is by the job, and in keeping with what it is worth, or what others would get for a similar part[same complexity, quality & finish] If You are not well equipped or not as proficient You are going to need a lot more time to do the work. |
| Dave Boyer - Friday, 12/01/06 02:43:56 EST |
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Miles: You used an uppercase "i" in your missive. Nobody uses a shift key any more, except for characters like "$" and emoticons like " :-) ". You also used a period (full stop). As you know, punctuation was abolished in 2004 (or perhaps 2005) as a hindrance to run-on stream of consciousness ramblings jumping three subjects and one shark in a single, magnificent paragraph of breathtaking erudition. As for spelling, you left three words intact. Even though they were “I”, “be” and “in” you could have more efficiently substituted “i” “b’ and “n” and saved two letters while increasing the challenge to readers to make some sort of comprehensive sense out of your posting. I am sure that you will do better next time. “Oh tempura, oh morays, oh fried eels!” Heavy winds and high tides expected tonight on the banks of the Potomac. Visit your national Parks: www.nps.gov Go viking: www.longshipco.org |
| Bruce Blackistone (Atli) - Friday, 12/01/06 08:40:34 EST |
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I saw a little oven for heating curling irons and such at a beauty shop. The oven has a ceramic lining and a rheostat that goes up to 870 degrees. My question is, would it be unadvisable to attempt to "turbocharge" it up to forging temps? Or, left alone the heat is low enough for non-ferrous materials for forging. I don't work aluminum or brass, although I'd like to expand my horizons a bit. Any thoughts? |
| - Nippulini - Friday, 12/01/06 09:59:30 EST |
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Nippulini, Actually you may want to check out the book Dave gingery wrote on building electric furnaces that includes all of the plans and a list of materials needed. He intended them to be used for melting metal as part of a home foundry, but they are theoretically capable of reaching 2300F so you could probably use it for forging. I believe that one of the advertisers here Artisan Ideas carries the book if you're interested. |
| Steven Galonska - Friday, 12/01/06 10:25:44 EST |
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Bruce-- thanx! Grin. I paint what I see. Grin. |
| Miles Undercut - Friday, 12/01/06 12:05:28 EST |
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TGN, The short answer is, no. Don't bother with it, start from scratch and build a good one. Specific alloys of aluminum, brass, bronze, silver, etc. all have differing temps for annealing or forging. Aluminum is at the low end, and that little oven would probably work for aluminum. For the rest, you're going to need temps a bit higher, in the 900-1100 range, some alloys even higher still. |
| vicopper - Friday, 12/01/06 12:11:07 EST |
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Another ebay 'i.d.' the anvil question...... item number 160057358957 - Just looks like a standard, unmarked london pattern to me, so why would someone have enquired for shipping to the states? the bid seems high considering theres 6 days of the sale left - am I missing something on this one? (all punctuation included, except the humble apostrophe, since I will inevitably use it incorrectly, and upset someone :) |
| John N - Friday, 12/01/06 12:34:19 EST |
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John Scancella, I can't speak for any of the other smiths in the Pittsburgh Area Artist Blacksmiths Association, but when I joined I found them welcoming and friendly to a hobby smith who's a metallurgist - a number of them are professional smithsso opening a shop probably wouldn't occur. But a number are hobby smiths. Attend some meetings and get to know them and some opportunities might open up. As for location, let's see, Hookstown is all of about 2 miles from the Ohio border. Ambridge is probably about 45 minutes from Stubenville if you don't go through Pittsburgh to get to it. Ligonier on the other hand would ba a "hike". |
| - Gavainh - Friday, 12/01/06 13:33:42 EST |
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Thank you so much, John N, for being considerate of the feelings of those of us who are punctuationally sensitive. |
| 3dogs - Friday, 12/01/06 13:39:41 EST |
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John N: Looks like a fairly typical anvil to me also. Yes, shipping to the U.S. would have been very expensive. May have bene Steve at matchlessantiques. |
| Ken Scharabok - Friday, 12/01/06 13:57:58 EST |
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Bruce for your lunch order, "Oh tempura, oh morays, oh fried eels!”, It Tokyo Sukiyaki (sp?) still in business in DC? I used to love their tempura back in the mid '60's... Dinging perfectly good stock: one Quad-State I saw a fellow who had made a top tool for his powerhammer. A hand held bar with a bunch of trapped ball bearings to speed up peening a surface as every hit put a bunch of dings in. Thomas |
| Thomas P - Friday, 12/01/06 14:26:38 EST |
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Speaking of Quad-State, if you would like to see a particular demonstrator there you can make a recommendation to Quad-State 07, P.O. Box 24308, Huber Heights, OH 45424-0308. Indicate why you think they would make a good demonstrator and provide a contact point for them. |
| Ken Scharabok - Friday, 12/01/06 16:00:39 EST |
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Tokyo Sukiyaki; Thomas: There's one in Montreal, but none no mo' in D.C. If you haven't been in town since the '60s you wouldn't recognize most of downtown (and it gets really freaky just considering what they've torn-down and built-up since I started working here in '74)! Tosh: I scored a piece of 2"+ black iron pipe walking back from lunch the other day; 10" long and threaded at both ends. A number of uses immediatly suggested themselves to me, such as candlesticks or tent pole ferrules. However, I was thinking it might make a good case hardening container. I've used clay in the past for small objects, but this is small enough to heat well, and big enough to hold some decent blades and parts (with a couple of end caps). HOWEVER... is it sealed air tight, or do I leave a small vent hole? With the clay, if everything is not perfectly dry any steam seems to work its way out through the cracks that always developed, but a large sealed iron pipe, especially with grease and leather per Theophilus; well it does give one pause. |
| Bruce Blackistone (Atli) - Friday, 12/01/06 16:33:05 EST |
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Gavainh, thank you for your help. Where are your guys meetings? I tried to find out through the web site and through calling the person the webmaster told me too but just kinda got the run around. John Scancella P.S. Its not that I'm unwilling to drive 3 hours to blacksmithing its that as a collage student I don't have the time or money to devote to that kind of trip. So thank you again for helping find something closer |
| John Scancella - Friday, 12/01/06 16:42:48 EST |
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So I checked out homemade electric furnaces and came back with a lot of foundry and casting results. I'm looking more scaled down for forging. Any suggestions? |
| - Nippulini - Friday, 12/01/06 17:39:15 EST |
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My husband is a custom knife maker for 18 yeras and has expressed an interest in forging his own damascus blades. I want to give the BEST christmas present ever and buy him a gas portable forge. Can you make any recommendations? I need at least a 12 x12x12, or do I? Thanks, Pat |
| pat alexander - Friday, 12/01/06 17:43:31 EST |
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Ian, I've been using a rattle-can water-based satin polyurethane. I find it's almost invisible over tight scale. I haven't really put it to the test on durability. Polyurethane is generally pretty good, but a kitchen could be a tough environment. |
| Mike B - Friday, 12/01/06 17:49:37 EST |
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12 Days ago I ordered the Advanced Damascus Patterning Video from www.hammersmithknives.com 12 days ago!!! I sent them an email to check on my ordered. I havent recieved anything in 4 days. They dont have a number where they can be reached. I called information its not on file. the guys name is JD Smith. Deos anyone know of this website or contact information that I am missing. Please help someone. Thanks, Charles Cooper Dallas, TX Heres all there is on the website HammerSmith Knives & Publications 516 E. 2nd street #38 South Boston 02127 MA |
| - Charles Cooper - Friday, 12/01/06 18:06:35 EST |
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12 Days ago I ordered the Advanced Damascus Patterning Video from www.hammersmithknives.com 12 days ago. I sent them an email to check on my ordered. I havent recieved anything in 4 days. They dont have a number where they can be reached. I called information its not on file. the guys name is JD Smith. Deos anyone know of this website or contact information that I am missing. Please help someone. Thanks, Charles Cooper Dallas, TX Heres all there is on the website HammerSmith Knives & Publications 516 E. 2nd street #38 South Boston 02127 MA |
| Charles Cooper - Friday, 12/01/06 18:10:00 EST |
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Sweet, innit' knew it wazz boat anca all along , mite bi it n stamp it rat ole n list it wiz me ammaz on me site... ez fellaz (for the finest perveyors of forging equipment on the whole internet contact john at www.masseyforging.com ) :) |
| - John N - Friday, 12/01/06 20:21:21 EST |
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Miles, I meant no offense. It is just that if we were actually related, I would expect myself to be more eloquent and knowlegable on the pertinent social issue of the day. Besides, people in my region of Tennessee demonstrate daily that there is only one kind of DNA here. |
| quenchcrack - Friday, 12/01/06 20:26:16 EST |
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In the distant future I intend to forge my own sword. That is after adequate training to do so. How hot should I heat the sword and how long should I hold it at that temperature to get it the hardest? |
| Kien Tran - Friday, 12/01/06 21:37:54 EST |
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quenchcrack-- no offense, bro. Now... as for more eloquent and knowledgeable... hmmm... don't kid a kidder. |
| Miles Undercut - Friday, 12/01/06 21:54:26 EST |
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Kien, that depends on the alloy you are forging---which you didn't tell us. Don't worry about heat treat until you have learned to forge! Thomas |
| Thomas Powers - Friday, 12/01/06 23:11:01 EST |
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Bruce - I think if You put the caps on hand tight You will be OK. I think bone meal is another traditional source of carbon, but if I was doing it I think I would buy some Casenit. |
| Dave Boyer - Friday, 12/01/06 23:19:14 EST |
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Charles Cooper, The USPS is on molasses hold these days. I mailed some horsehead hoof picks from Santa Fe (in the US) to PA, on November 8th, and they arrived on the 28th. |
| Frank Turley - Saturday, 12/02/06 03:12:43 EST |
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USPS is competing with UPS and the other ground carriers by emphasing Priority Mail. I ship out a lot of PM boxes and they are normally received within 2-4 days. Media mail (books, etc.) seems about as fast as first class. Parcel Post is now very low as far as delivery service is concerned. I've had case of USPS taking over five weeks to delivery a Parcel Post package only a couple of states away. They lost one Parcel Post package which was 12" x 16" x 20" and it was only going about 100 miles within TN. |
| Ken Scharabok - Saturday, 12/02/06 04:15:21 EST |
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Nippulini: Sounds like that curling iron oven would make a dandy little tempering oven for a knifemaker. Sharp: Whatever pricing method you come up with take into consideration inflation on raw goods in running much higher than the Consumer Price Index. An example is the local town which budgeted for 12 trash dumpsters. By the time the line item was approved and budgeted they found they could only buy eight of them within the budgeted amount. I make household decor items out of new horseshoes. When I first started purchasing them locally they were $1.75 lb any size. Now they are sized priced at $2.86 to $4.25 lb. To make any money off of them I have to change an average of $8.00 pound as a finished item vs $4.00 lb when I first started offering them last year. If you are going to do this as a hobby business, then the net income needs to be whatever pocket money you are happy with. If you are going to do it as your sole support, then I suspect you are going to have to really increase your prices, probably beyond what your potential customers are willing to pay. I know a local guy who does either restoration or reproduction work for designers in Nashville, TN. High-end stuff. Works out of a shop maybe 20' x 20' with usually one helper. He told me some weeks his helper makes more money then he netted out of the business that week. I suspect many a new, or even existing, business ends because they have found what they have to charge to just stay in business is more than the market will bear. |
| Ken Scharabok - Saturday, 12/02/06 06:25:50 EST |
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When I was in Amsterdam I found an 8" length of 1/4" square rod, possibly brass or bronze. I took it home, and it is definitely NOT ferrous. I am planning on forging it into a handguard and pommel on a dagger I made last year. Any way I can test it to find out exactly what type of metal this is? |
| - Nippulini - Saturday, 12/02/06 08:55:59 EST |
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Sharp on pricing: On smaller projects that I have made before (such as steel roses around Valentine's day, keyrings, s-hooks, j-hooks, etc.), I know how long each one will take and I charge according to an hourly rate (ex. a steel rose takes me roughly 1 hour in production mode. My time is worth $20/hour. Plus $5 for consumables and materials. Plus $5 for finish time and finish materials. A grand total of $30 a rose, or sometimes $340 a dozen. If I knock off $20 on a dozen people think they are getting a real deal!). I have not done many larger projects (like gates, railings, etc.) but the few that I have done I make a sample of the work (one spindle, one foot of railing, etc.) and see how long that takes (also a good visual aid for the customer). From there I figure up roughly how long the whole project will take and the price. I then add in the projected cost of consumables , and then add 10%-15% of this price as a "buffer." On top of this is the cost of materials. I require the customer to pay for the materials up front (that way I am at a smaller loss should someone back out on me). Usually it all ends up working out with me making between $15 and $20 an hour. And that first sample? I keep that for future use. Another consideration (and I tried this once) is to go to menard's or lowe's or whatever home improvement store is in your area and look for something similar to what you are going to make. Multiply the price of that by 4 or 5 and base your price off of that. This worked out on a very simple hand rail as the price from menards was about $10/foot and my finished price was roughly $40/ foot. I would not recommend this method for more complex projects though because of the time involved. Hope the helps. -Aaron @ the SCF |
| thesandycreekforge - Saturday, 12/02/06 10:58:24 EST |
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BTW: Thought I should mention this. I asked the same question as Sharp a while back (maybe a month or so) about how to price large projects. Since then I have managed to rope in 4 larger projects (including the handrail I mention above, and the project from the original inquiry post). The project I inquired about in the post on pricing was for a customer who ended having quite a bit of influence in the "creative community" in the area, and because of you guy's advice, I was able to offer what he considered a very reasonable price, and the other 3 projects were from referals by him. This kept me plenty busy working up to 15 hours a week in the forge. And even though these projects were fairly simple (creativity-wise), the extra money sure has helped out A big thanks to all the advice givers at anvilfire.com !!! -Aaron @ the SCF |
| thesandycreekforge - Saturday, 12/02/06 11:13:45 EST |
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Thanks for all the info. guys it helps alot. |
| Sharp - Saturday, 12/02/06 11:26:24 EST |
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Question about Doug Merkel's Wax Finish Recipe Doug Merkel's wax finish recipe has been posted around the Intranet for a few years now and I'm preparing to make a batch, but I have a question for anyone who uses this finish. It calls for 1/2 cup shaved/pieces of Beeswax Do you take 4 ounces of beeswax and shave it? or Do you shave it and measure out 1/2 cup which is about an ounce of beeswax. |
| sriver - Saturday, 12/02/06 12:45:05 EST |
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Thank for th info. helps out |
| Charles Cooper - Saturday, 12/02/06 12:50:37 EST |
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Nippullini's mystery metal Unfortunately, there are several hundred different common copper alloys, along with hundreds more that are rare. So two of the most misused and meaningless descriptive terms are "brass" and "bronze". Unless you pay for analysis, there is no way of knowing what your metal is. So I would suggest you just try forging it, and see if it works. If it has significant amounts of lead in it, which it well could, it will not forge worth beans. Try dimming the lights, heating it up till it is just beginning to glow the dullest of reds, and then try hammering and see what happens. If it crumbles into cookie dough like material, it probably is high in lead, and is only good for cold work. Lead is intentionally added to many metals to make it easier to machine, but it makes it very difficult to forge. Be sure not to get it too hot- copper alloys will turn to a puddle very quickly at a very low temp- I often forge some trickier bronzes at a temp where they are between dark brown and purple in color, well before they appear the slightest bit red in normal light. Of course, forging at too cold a temp wont work either- it will crack and possibly crumble as well. Anyway, try it, and if it doesnt work, use it for something else. Real traceable bronze alloys that forge well are available, although they run $5 to $10 a pound, that still isnt much for a piece of 1/4" square. And then you know your time isnt wasted. |
| - Ries - Saturday, 12/02/06 14:27:03 EST |
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I am looking for information on for a report on blacksmiths. I have read that the government does not keep track of blacksmith injury statistics, so I was hoping you would be able to tell me some common injuries – burns, sprains, or anything else. Also, are there any safety guidelines that blacksmiths take? I would also like to know the typical age and salary of a blacksmith artisan. |
| Daniel Steele - Saturday, 12/02/06 15:23:28 EST |
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Andrew, most interesting casting bronzes pour near 2000F. Use a pyrometer. See www.foundry101.com. I think that their "cowboy" furnace can do bronze, but ask just in case. Their www site is very informative and I am sure that they'll be friendly to the hobby caster. Ken, thanks for the advice on Ebay. I will tell my student--I will be working with him tomorrow. He is ahead of me, anyway. He has a "real" anvil. I have been looking for years, but I have been very happy with the substitutes that I have used/outgrown. John, don't worry about the comments about driving long distances. When I was in college (seems like only yesterday), 2-3 hours of driving was a nearly insurmountable obstacle. You'll get over it as you get older (even grad school, the driving is much easier). Ries, thanks for the advice on the Little Giant hammer. I called the number and reached a very helpful lady who told me almost all that I needed to know. She told me to weld brass angle iron guides to the worn V's, and forget about using a crane and giant milling machine. Furthermore, all that milling could wreck the frame. Unfortunately, I don't know how to weld brass to cast iron. Maybe TIG brazing? She mentioned that even flush brass screws and epoxy would work. Of course, more shims would be added. |
| EricC - Saturday, 12/02/06 17:17:18 EST |
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Tig brazing with a silcon bronze (sometimes called "everdur") filler rod will work to get brass to stick to cast iron, but if the particular brass alloy has much zinc and or lead in it, it may sputter and smoke a bit. |
| - Ries - Saturday, 12/02/06 19:56:50 EST |
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Ries, thanks for the info. I havent heated it, but I did pound it cold and it took form nicely. It is VERY rigid, wont bend much. I bent the hammered end in a vise and it snapped (I drew it down to less than 1/8") at the thinnest point. I think I'll stick with cold forging it for the handgaurd and pommel. |
| - Nippulini - Saturday, 12/02/06 21:27:25 EST |
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Do you think living along the lay lines of the 80th parallel on the world grid in a electro-magnetic/gravitational vortex affects the way metal draws and hardens? I am in one. It causes very strange things. I was wondering its effects on my forging. |
| - Tyron Viron - Sunday, 12/03/06 00:10:38 EST |
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Hello are there any simple jigs for making hinges for the pin. I am a dummy and need a show me lol Thanks Johnny |
| Johnny - Sunday, 12/03/06 00:21:04 EST |
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I just aquired several dozen jackhammer points, chisels and spades. I am wondering what alloy they might be as I expect to be making tooling with them for years to come and need to level out my hardening and tempering learning curve! Suggestions? References? Procedures? |
| - scott wadsworth - Sunday, 12/03/06 01:25:05 EST |
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I just scored on several dozen jackhammer points, chisels, and spades with various size shanks. How can i determine the alloy of this material? Suggestions? Hardening/tempering ideas? |
| - scott wadsworth - Sunday, 12/03/06 01:41:55 EST |
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Tyron V - I wouldn't expect it to, but then I sailed arround in the Bermuda triangle for a dozen years and saw nothing unusual there either. |
| Dave Boyer - Sunday, 12/03/06 02:28:50 EST |
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Nippulini, If you work it cold, you'll probably want to anneal when it starts to harden too much. I think heating to a *very* low red and quenching works for most copper alloys. You could experiment on the piece that broke off. Tyron, Which 80th parallel? I don't know about lay lines, but either 80th sounds like a story in itself. |
| Mike B - Sunday, 12/03/06 08:37:52 EST |
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sriver on beeswax: You measure 1/2 cup of shavings, the finer the better, and pack 'em in. It's not that critical. |
| Alan-L - Sunday, 12/03/06 11:34:11 EST |
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Bruce; I spent 62-68 living in McLean VA; went back to visit recently and recognized *1* place; 3 little pigs BBQ, still there same location. I remember how nice the mall was after Ladybird got the "temporary" buildings removed. Make a Pin Hole for gas to escape! You can plug it with a smear of clay. Thomas |
| Thomas P - Sunday, 12/03/06 12:18:46 EST |
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scott wadsworth - To be sure of the alloy, I'd contact the vendor for the specs on the part. They might not be thrilled with the idea of re-use of their parts for a whole different, untested (by them) purpose but the customer service people should be able to answer generic questions about what type of steel is used to make a point or chisel. If it's Ingersoll Rand, start with www.irtools.com and find the customer service numbers from there. |
| - sriver - Sunday, 12/03/06 13:12:46 EST |
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Gravitational vortexes? I studied geophysics and actually had to use a gravitometer to measure minute gravity differences indicative of isostocy or dense mineral accumulations. No "ley line" vortexes were mentioned; there are some nifty magnetic effects from ore bodies---magnet cove AR is an example, lovely double clamshell effect on a magnetic field mapping of the area. Blacksmith injuries: I don't know of any specific blacksmith injuries, all of them are "shared" with weldors, glassblowers, etc. The only injury I have had in 25 years of blacksmithing and knifemaking that resulted in a Dr's visit was when grinding on a blade cold. Average salary for a smith is pretty much a meaningless figure. *Median* salary will tell you a whole lot more. Thomas |
| Thomas Powers - Sunday, 12/03/06 16:31:36 EST |
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Jack hammer bits: they vary quite a bit, now, but in the old days when Joe Humble sharpened them for Tennessee-American Water company, he heated them to Non-magnetic, quenched the point in oil, and self tempered to light blue. Then he cooled them in water. I used the same treatment to make other tools from the too-short throw away ones. They make great hardies! |
| - John Odom - Sunday, 12/03/06 18:20:04 EST |
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Dave & Tom Is it true the ring of the anvil will scare the spirits away that are drawn by the energy in the vortex? Thanks |
| - Tyron Viron - Sunday, 12/03/06 22:43:01 EST |
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Gravitational vortexes? My friend of mine has his set his goal in life; he is trying to accumulate enough old cast iron and steel machinery on his property that the FAA will have to issue Notices to Aviators to amend their navigation charts when flying a route over his place to account for the variations in compass declination caused by all of his junk. Not that anyone on this forum would have similar lifetime goals? Bob J |
| woodenewe - Sunday, 12/03/06 23:07:58 EST |
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does anyone know where i get get some 5160 steel? I'm forging a seax blade for a friend who's a viking reenactor. he wanted me to make it out of mild steel but i want to make it useable. Or if there are any other better steels, maybe cheaper, that i should use instead of 5160. thanks y'all Andrew B. |
| - andrew B. - Sunday, 12/03/06 23:35:42 EST |
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AndrewB. The large supplier catalogs of McMaster-Carr, MSC, and Travers Tool, sell W1 water hardening steel...has about 1% carbon. It is sold scale free, in 3-foot lengths, various diameters, and it is called "drill rod". |
| Frank Turley - Sunday, 12/03/06 23:45:13 EST |
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We often get powerful entropic surges hereabouts, which when aligned with the gravitational vortices and the tug of the lee lines, why, my goodness gracious! We did have grave compass declination problems, too, what with all the surplus ferrous (not to mention the dread ferric) materiel, but Thomas has helped a lot to ease that. |
| Miles Undercut - Monday, 12/04/06 00:55:34 EST |
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Andred B: I believe 5160 was commonly used for vehicle leaf and coil springs. |
| Ken Scharabok - Monday, 12/04/06 05:03:32 EST |
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SGensh: Thank you for sending the 1951 newspaper item on Fisher anvils on Mrs. S. A. Andrew, the last owner. A couple of aspects I found particularly interesting. She noted 16 men turn out between 70 & 80 anvils a week. When Clark Fisher's wife, Hariett, took over in 1900 they had 300 employees. Clark Fisher went into the U.S. Navy after college and retired as a chief engineering officer before taking over the business from his father, Mark. "During the war one government inspector reported that we were making an all-steel anvil, the mixture for the cast iron was so rich" Mrs. Andrew recalled. "It isn't steel, just a very high grade iron". "Earlier in the century the company announced that it had succeeded in taking the traditional ring out of its anvils. The subdued anvils were supposed to be better for the workmen's ears. It was, so the story goes, one of these 'ringless' anvils that found its way on to the War Memorial Building stage for a redering of the "Anvil Chorus." The anvil's voice was a dud. "We now put the ring, at least some of it, back in the anvils" Mrs. Andrew stated. "You see how difficult it is to go against tradition in this business." My guess is they took out the ring by increasing the carbon in the cast iron and put it back in by lowering it. Correct? |
| Ken Scharabok - Monday, 12/04/06 08:11:36 EST |
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Ken. . I think that was a line of BS to add mystery to the process. The army made it a point to buy Fisher Eagle anvils because they were quiter thus many people called them "army battlefield anvils". However, there was no plan to make quiet anvils, just a different cheaper method. The later Fishers had a more slender waist than earlier ones thus they ring a little. Although cast iron is dead it will ring if the right shape. Otherwise cast iron bells would not ring. Early English style anvils that were very blocky had very little or no ring but later anvils made of the same materials the same way but with a different shape rang loudly. Fishers are what they are, no magic. |
| - guru - Monday, 12/04/06 09:08:19 EST |
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We are back from the Garden State (New Jersey). We spent a week cataloging and photographing almost every tool in a 200+ year old blacksmith shop. Lots and lots of bits and pieces. Some interesting tools but not much has changed in our field in 200 years except power tools and this shop had none in its entire history, not even steam or water powered tools. The two things that stood out were the fact that most of the tools were hand made and that many had been lost in the dirt and gravel floor. Over 200 years at least as many tools as were in use were found buried in the floor. The same was found in a fried's shop that had only been in operation for about 10 years in a similar type location. Good argument against dirt floors. Playing catchup today. . . |
| - guru - Monday, 12/04/06 09:22:47 EST |
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Magnetic Anomalies: I think my friend Josh Greenwood has the record for that as a personal blacksmith shop. However, there are many scrap yards that are much larger and any decent sized ship blows those away. Lets see. . steam hammers 1500#, 750#, 500#, 300#, mechanical hammers (2) 150#, (1) 75#. Air compressors. Two weld plattens, one 6 by 12 feet and the other 7 x 7 feet. Several heavy saws. One 7 foot boring mill (turret lathe), 5 foot boring mill, 3 foot boring mill, 4 milling machines, 5 lathes starting at 5 feet down to 13". Misc presses, heavy grinders and tables. Two rolling mills and assorted sheds of "stuff". Not to mention uncounted anvils, swage blocks and cones, hand hammers and contractors tools. I used to joking call Josh's place the Greenwood magnetic anomaly. The tricky ones are the temporary magnetic anomalies such as SOFA. They appear for a few days then POOF they are gone. . . |
| - guru - Monday, 12/04/06 09:40:13 EST |
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GURU: if any of the guru that live near the Hickory n.c. area would be so kind as to leave me your e-mail address, I would really like to talk to a smith and experience an experienced smiths skill. Thnx in advance! |
| - Andrew Marlin - Monday, 12/04/06 09:44:14 EST |
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Johnny,WElcome to Anvilfire. look at the iforge demos, upper right dropdown menu. Demo's #24,90,and 91 deal with hinges. Hope these help |
| daveb - Monday, 12/04/06 10:13:04 EST |
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Hello, I've made a forge from an old lorry wheel and have set fire bricks into the bottom. Should I put slim bricks around the sides? Are they needed? On the forge blower front I've heard an old hoover can be used. Have you heard of this? If so, how are the doctored to be able to blow or is it a special kind of hoover you need. Thanks in advance, it's been troubling me all weekend Eifion |
| Eifion Williams - Monday, 12/04/06 11:22:13 EST |
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Forges: Eifion, The steel or iron of the wheel will hold up to the heat for reasonable use. The only need for bricks is to fill holes and to create the proper shape. Old vacuum cleaners tend to be noisy and put out too much air. However they may be used. You will need to construct a gate valve to regulate the air. Under normal use once a forge fire is burning you only need a gentle breeze, about what a human could blow if they blew continously. While starting a fire you need more air and when heating large pieces. So you need some adjustment. |
| - guru - Monday, 12/04/06 11:57:18 EST |
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Have made 6-hook coat rack that is to be mounted to wall. Will mount through drywall to studs @ 16" centers. Am just beginning my illustrious career in metal working, but hooks did not turn out too badly (maybe primitive is the term). Want to view some examples of 1 inch - 2 inch escutcheons, hand forged, that I might make, punch for screw hole, and use for decorative mounting sites. Have tried the google search, but only come up with machine manufactured items. I do not want to buy these, but need ideas to make. Thanks in advance. Dick B |
| Dick B - Monday, 12/04/06 13:05:49 EST |
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John Scancella - meeting locations vary - the December meeting is a plant tour of the Bruce Mansfield power plant in Shippingport, PA. We should be back to more normal locations in the New Year, starting with a meeting on January 20, 2007 at the Depreciation Lands museum, south of Butler, PA. February 10 - John Groll's shop nera Pittsburg's South Side, Mar. 11 demos at Old Econmy and Jymm Hoffman's shop - both in Ambridge, PA and a brass pour in April at Rice's Landing in Greene county south of Pittsburgh off route 79. The group web site is www.paaba.net Annual membership for the group is I believe $15. |
| - Gavainh - Monday, 12/04/06 13:36:01 EST |
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I am seeing some Damascus steel sheets coming from Japan that are actually "Sandwich Damascus Steel Sheets made by using 2 pieces of 39 layers Damascus steel sheets(OCR13 steel) with a middle layer of 8CR13MOV steel sheet. Can you tell me about this and is it good for knife blades. Mike |
| Mike Hill - Monday, 12/04/06 13:45:52 EST |
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Mike Hill; what is the carbon content of the middle layer? Dick B; IIRC Weyger's "The complete Modern Blacksmith" discusses making decorative escutions from punchouts, here in the Southwest we have a lot of decorative clavos (Frank did I get that right?) in use made a lot of different ways. Eifion: anything that's sucking air in has to be blowing it out somewhere. One forge I built I used a small "handyvac" that I removed the bag from leaving a round pipe with air coming out of it. Being a universal motor I was able to use an old fashioned rheostat to control the speed. andrew B; do it up right and use some real wrought iron! They used low carbon knives for over 1000 years so I guess they found it usable. By the end of the migration period and start of the early middle ages, (viking times) a decent knife would have some carbon in it though soft swords are reported in the sagas so he might me trying to for one of those. Neither mild steel or 5160 is accurate for that period though. Low carbon WI or WI derrived steels would be what was used. Thomas |
| Thomas P - Monday, 12/04/06 14:32:08 EST |
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The Carbon content is .75% |
| - Mike Hill - Monday, 12/04/06 14:42:44 EST |
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the Carbon content is 0.75% |
| - Mike Hill - Monday, 12/04/06 14:43:24 EST |
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the carbon content it 0.75% |
| - Mike Hill - Monday, 12/04/06 14:44:28 EST |
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the carbon content is 0.75% |
| Mike Hill - Monday, 12/04/06 14:45:27 EST |
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Newby question: I've come upon some rail road spikes and have been making a few knifes from some of them - This weekend I started shaping a blade on the forge and was pulled away to help a friend in need. I let the spike air cool (was at a red heat) and plan on finishing next week- Was this the correct way to cool the iron or did I ruin it? |
| Bob D - Monday, 12/04/06 15:50:58 EST |
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on cooling hot spikes- the spikes are marked hc |
| Bob D - Monday, 12/04/06 15:55:59 EST |
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I have found two crank champion blowers in my grandpa's storage shack, one is missing the handle, the other will crank so far and then stop, I haven't taken it apart yet, but any ideas what might cause this? Probably some built up rust? |
| - Boogerman - Monday, 12/04/06 16:57:50 EST |
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Dick B. If you cut out a 3/16" thick plate minimum and hammer chamfer the edges, that should be enough. You could clip off the corners or radius the corners, which shouldn't take long. I would use a screw hole in each corner. Thomas P. My Spanish is fluid, not fluent. My old books agree that a door boss, a bossed up "washer" with a central hole for a nail, is "el chatón", and the nail itself is the clavo. What Dick will be making, I think may be called an "escudo" (escutcheon). |
| Frank Turley - Monday, 12/04/06 17:43:53 EST |
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can someone look this up on ebay?? this link should take you right to the page, its somekind of "special " alloy that is oil hardening, supposed to be easily worked ,,,,,is this for real? kinda pricy at roughly $23 with shipping,,,,,,,,, http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140000621801&sspagename=ADME:L:RTQ:US:1 thanks,, i'm just curious weather or not this could make a good knife,,, and apoximatly what size is .37?? like the nearest 1/16th or 32nd |
| mike - Monday, 12/04/06 18:01:43 EST |
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I've been using my home-made propane forge for about 3 days now (one day on an almost empty tank), and just today the valves started freezing horribly fast. How can I keep this from happening? I was using de-icer but it didn't work as I was told it would by my father. I am using a forced air set up, and after about half and hour the propane pressure dropped so low the flame wouldn't keep. Any suggestions? Many Thanks! ---Rob |
| - Rob - Monday, 12/04/06 19:23:39 EST |
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Ken, You are welcome on the Fisher article. |
| SGensh - Monday, 12/04/06 20:01:39 EST |
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Does anyone know where to get the plans to build, what I've heard called, a treadle torch? I bought an item from Gasaver which I believe the fundamental part to make one. The oxy/gas torch can have a pilot flame going and a foot pedal which turns on the torch. This is a nice no-hands way to turn on and off a rosebud tip for heating purposes. I saw one in a flypress video once and another made by an unknown blacksmith in Arizona. |
| Russell Shumway - Monday, 12/04/06 20:41:16 EST |
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Hello, I would like your opinion on JHM anvils. I will be purchasing my first anvil shortly and have settled on a new 260lb. JHM Competitor. Thanks you. |
| - Ed Kerr - Monday, 12/04/06 20:55:35 EST |
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Russell, The heart of this device is an "Economizer Valve". It operates by a lever and turns off both oxygen and fuel. It contains a pilot flame to relight the torch. Normally the torch is hung on the lever to shut off the fuel. However, folks have set them up to be foot operated to allow hands free operation. I believe our old friend Peter Fels was one of the first to rig up one of these. The Economizer Valve is available from better welding suppliers. |
| - guru - Monday, 12/04/06 20:58:34 EST |
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Freezing Valves: Rob, This is the result of drawing gas faster than the cylinder volume will allow. Propane is a cryogenic liquid. As it evaporates it absorbs heat. Normally the heat is absorbed from the remaining liquid and and the steel of the cylinder. As the liquid is used the cylinder can produce less gas. The freezing you are seeing is frost from the air where the still too cold gas is flowing out the valve and regulator. In cold weather this is more of a problem than in warm. However, the solution is always the same, a larger gas bottle. In a pinch you can anchor the bottle in a tank of water to provide the heat sink necessary to evaporate the gas. See our FAQ, Gas Facts. |
| - guru - Monday, 12/04/06 21:04:52 EST |
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JMH: Ed, Those are good American made anvils and well finished. I have no experiance with them but they are popular with Farriers who are their primary market. AISI 4340-61 Steel Mike, I have never heard of it. However, ALL blade steels must be carefully heat treated to get the best performance. Care in heat treating makes a huge difference in all steels and more so in exotics. |
| - guru - Monday, 12/04/06 21:20:26 EST |
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Mike, We only need the 12 digit number to look up the item on eBay. The analysis of the steel listing its alloying elements is hardly different than regular ol' 4340; however, steels are made of "aircraft quality", which this may be. I always look at the end-use of the steel as recommended by the manufacturer. The seller lists airplane landing gears and other forms of gearing. My old "Forging Industry Handbook" talks about the typical applications of 4340 being "Heavy Duty crankshafts, rear axle shafts and gears, structural parts". My question is why would a guy want to make a knife out of it? And while we're on the subject, why are there so many inquiries about 5160 as a knife steel? The typical applications for 5160 are auto springs and torsion bars. The 60 means that the steel has a carbon content of 0.60% What is so wrong with getting on line with McMaster Carr, MSC, or Travers Tool, and purchasing a 3 foot length of 5/8" round, scale free, drill rod, either W1, water hardening, or 01, oil hardening? The W1 drill rod, of about 1% carbon, is your typical knife steel used over the years. The surface of it will stain. Big deal. The good high carbon chefs knives all stain. If it stains, polish it. When I went to school, .37 meant 37/100ths, so I suppose 37/100ths of one inch would be slightly over 1/3 of an inch, roughly rounding it off. |
| Frank Turley - Monday, 12/04/06 21:59:36 EST |
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Hey man, has anyone ever asked or suggested that your forum have all the new stuff at the beginning of the page rather than having to scroll down to get to the newest stuff? Some people coming here for the first time might think nobody has been here for a bit. Just a thought. |
| Paul Wilson - Monday, 12/04/06 22:01:56 EST |
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Dick B, Check on the 'net for "The Blacksmith's Journal", a publication put out by Jerry Hoffmann. He has dne many decorative escutcheons over the years and you should be able to order the back issues online by download. BOb D, What you did was fine. Those spikes don't have enough carbon to make them terribly sensitive to cooling rates. They don't make very good knives either, if you want a knife that will take and hold a keen edge. mike, .37" is about 3/8" (.375"). You need to be able to understand fractions if you're going to be successful as a blacksmith. |
| vicopper - Monday, 12/04/06 22:20:57 EST |
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I purchased a Mayer 50LB trip hammer recently. I need to know the motor HP requirements and the drive shaft RPM. Any help would be very much appreciated. Thank You! |
| Russell Roosevelt - Monday, 12/04/06 22:23:39 EST |
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Paul Wilson: I think it is set up this way to make it easy for us non-technical dummies, just a continuous list of posts dating back to about '98 in archives. |
| Dave Boyer - Monday, 12/04/06 22:36:47 EST |
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i'm interested in making a good knife that will hold a great edge but also the higher the carbon count the better the back side of the edge would be for useing as a flint strinker,,, within reason,,,,, thats y this metal sounded good for what im looking to make,,,,,and thanks,,, sounds more like a ebay scam to me,,,, |
| mike - Monday, 12/04/06 22:44:59 EST |
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Annealing question: I am a newbee, forged my first blade at the TrackRock Hammerin in October, bitten by the bug and have been accumulating 'stuff', built a 2 brick gas muffle/furnace, acquired some vermiculite and put together a hot box for the purpose of annealing the steel, been practicing on mild steel from Home Depot, have 5160 for the 'real stuff'. The mild steel is for practice, hammer control, test the muffle/furnace, test the 'anneal hot box', etc.. And, yes, I have read the FAQ on Heat Treat on this site which states to anneal 5160 "Anneal at 1525°F then cool rapidly to 1300°F and cool to 1200°F at no more than 20°F/h for 5 hours." Here is the situation and my question: I used a large popcorn tin, a cylinder 10" tall by 10" diameter, filled with vermiculite (aka masonry loose fill insulation), heated my simulated blade to a red orange - orange heat and into the vermiculite. Six hours later the metal was just warm. The above quote from this site's FAQ states that the metal is heated to 1525 then rapidly cooled to 1300 then cooled at a rate of 20 degrees per hour. After 6 hours I should have burnt my finger when I touched the metal. Other forums, books, etc., have stated for proper annealing to cool overnite. Therein lies my confusion. `1st question: Is the popcorn tin a proper device for an anneal hot box? What materials have others used? 2nd question/statement: I believe I have the proper material, i.e., vermiculite, yet the rate of cooling was too fast. An ideas, suggestions, comments are welcomed. 3rd question: I used 5160 and will use 5160 as that is what I was given and have about 5 feet of it. Is 5160 ok for a beginner? If not, your recommendations please. 4th question: How does one achieve a 20 degree rate of cooling per hour without the use of an thermostatically controlled oven? Thank you. |
| Randy Scott - Monday, 12/04/06 22:55:08 EST |
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Ed Kerr You gits yourself one of those 260 lb jhm anvils and you will never want or need another. |
| - Namenda - Monday, 12/04/06 22:55:21 EST |
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Re-Question The forge pot im looking at to get started is marked as a "coal forge firepot." Im planning on using coke from the bag, so as not to disturb the neighbors. Even with my small project use, will there be a heat issue from using a coal firepot with bagged coke as my fuel source? |
| - Sebastian B. - Monday, 12/04/06 23:29:09 EST |
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Hey Guru, could you send me the details about your NJ trip? I'm right across the stream and would love to see what you saw. |
| - Nippulini - Monday, 12/04/06 23:47:14 EST |
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Randy Scott, Answer is, You don't. The oven is about the only way to get that slow a cooling rate, unless you're using really massive hunks of material. Stock for knife making is way too thin to cool that slowly without an oven. The 5160 will make a perfectly fine knife, and is a pretty forgiving steel for a beginner to work with, in my experience. W1 or O1 would be even better, but the 5160 will be fine. |
| vicopper - Tuesday, 12/05/06 00:16:08 EST |
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Ed Kerr: Centaur Forge lists the 260 LB JHM at $1,016. Also take a look on eBay. At the moment there are four large anvils listed: 310 lb Peter Wright, $856, no bids; 360 lb PW, $655 (14 bids); 230 lb unknown, but might be a Hay-Budden, $400, no bids, a bit rough; 250 lb Fisher in what appears to be excellent condition, $250, no bids. Either of the last two would likely fit your needs. Sebastian B: No, coke is merely coal in which someone else has removed most of the impurities so it is predominately carbon. Won't bother a good firepot any more than burning coal and turning it into coke there. One problem on buying a brand new anvil is it is likely like buying a new car. It will depreciate when driven off the lot. With an old anvil likely they will only appreciate in value. |
| Ken Scharabok - Tuesday, 12/05/06 04:33:48 EST |
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On a follow-up to the 1951 Fisher article it said, "He (Clark Fisher) designed the metal plate that holds railroad rails together and made them originally of cast iron. They are still known as "Fish" - short for Fisher - plates. Fish plates probably brought the firm its first "big" money." Another source said these plates were developed by Robert Livingston Stevens (son of John Stevens - which is known as the father of American railroads) in the early 1830s. He is also given credit for designing the T-rail and railroad spikes still used today and little changed in some 170 years. My dictionary says the term fishplate originated 1850-1855 and it comes from from fiche - fastening, derived of ficher to fasten. If anything Clark's father, Mark, might have been somehow involved since his Trenton foundry was started about 1843 - about the time of the expansion of steel tracked railroad service in the Northeast. I suspect ficher and Fisher was just a coincidence. |
| Ken Scharabok - Tuesday, 12/05/06 06:36:43 EST |
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Randy, If your 5160 is still hard after your annealing process, heat several larger chunks of steel along with your blade. Put the chunks into the vermiculite first and then put the blade it. Separate the blade from the chunks with 1-2" of vermiculite. However, the annealing is intended only to soften the steel to make it easier to file and shape. If it is soft enough to work, don't worry about the exact cooling rate. |
| quenchcrack - Tuesday, 12/05/06 08:46:22 EST |
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Gravitational Vortex; I belive a gravitational vortex has been located in Washington DC for about 200 years now. Money is sucked in and never comes back out. |
| quenchcrack - Tuesday, 12/05/06 08:54:43 EST |
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0.37" Dimension: Sorry I missed that. . .375 is 3/8 but should be rounded .38. Steel gauge sizes do not go that thick so it is either a typo, bad rounding or very odd plate. If all else fails ask the seller. 4340 and 4340H: There is a premium grade of 4340 listed in the Heat Treaters Guide. However, its properties are given as exactly the same as standard 4340. At its strongest tempered strength it is 52HRC and its hardest temper is listed at 58HRC. 5160 Heat Treating: The information quoted in our FAQ is from the ASM Heat Treater's Guide, Standard Practices and Procedures for Steel. This is pretty much the industry standard and expects the facilities of an industrial shop, not seat of the pants blacksmiths heat treats. Slow Annealing: This can be achieved using a large block of steel with the small piece laying on it or between two large pieces. The prefered media for annealing for over a century was quick lime. Prior to that it was light dry wood ash. Vermiculite is a modern replacement without nearly the thermal isolation of the quick lime. However, quick lime is highly reactive to water and drys the skin. As a reative chemical it is looked down upon in the world of political correctness. The only time I have used it was in another's shop where they kept a full bag on the floor. On most modern alloy steels if you need them annealed you buy them annealed and do what you need in the annealed state. When you buy these steels that is often a large part of what you are paying for. Once you have lost the anneal then you don't plan on going back. In many cases normalizing (cooling in air) has replaced annealing. However, in thin sections that air quench you may need to use an annealing medium and hot plate to slow the cooling. |
| - guru - Tuesday, 12/05/06 09:16:38 EST |
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Little Giant Specs: Russell, the 50# hammers came with a 2HP motor but will run on 1.5 just fine. See our Power Hammer Page for more LG specs. |
| - guru - Tuesday, 12/05/06 09:22:56 EST |
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Guru, where did you go in NJ? I am really interested in checking it out. |
| - Nippulini - Tuesday, 12/05/06 09:58:47 EST |
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Nip, I went to Old Millstone Forge in Millstone, NJ (North River Street). Their hours are currently weekends only, April to September. Drop me a mail and I'll send you contact info. The shop was in continuous operation from the late 1700's to the late 1950's and then as a working museum from then till now. At one time the shop absorbed a wheel wright operation and has those tools as well. They made steamed bent two piece wagon wheels, something I had not seen before. |
| - guru - Tuesday, 12/05/06 10:22:44 EST |
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Found a source for welding tables you guys might not have heard of, old safes. We acquired two monstrous old store safes for $1 apiece. It seems that old locksmith shops have these things that have been removed and they are so heavy and/or beat up they can’t sell them. I know the guy we grabbed ours from sure thought he was getting the better end of the deal and loaded them for us on our trailer. Loading/unloading might be the hardest part about the event, our safes weighed 6000# each. After we got them home and off with the loader we slit the quarter inch covering with the torch and jack hammered the 8” of concrete off from around the safe box itself and we had cube of reinforced 1 1/4 steel with a cool door on the side. Toe space was an issue so we welded 1” thick wings on the sides to extend the edge 8”. We use the main chamber to store welding rod with a heat lamp and thermostat inside to keep it at 70 degrees. A side effect is that the table is always pleasantly warm. |
| K Nelson - Tuesday, 12/05/06 11:20:52 EST |
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Old Millstone Forge: One of our Camp Fenby participants, R.J., works there. She's taking care of my arc welder on a long term loan (until the day I get the new forge built and wired, or maybe longer). I hope to swing by if I ever get to the area. Are you going to post something in the News? Monetary Vortexes: Quenchcrack- you have it wrong, the money that flows into Washington flows out again even faster. It actually flows out faster than it comes in! This leaves a great vacuum here, which can suck a great deal of common sense out of a number of normally intelligent individuals. Once, when crossing the Ellipse, I came upon a couple of rat holes. I thought my fortune was made, since everybody has always told me that the government throws millions of dollars down various rat holes. Alas, the Rangers have refused my repeated requests to “get to the bottom of this,” and will not allow me to blithely dig up a national landmark in pursuit of the truth. They contend that all I’ll find is rats. Another day, trying to save the taxpayers some money (or at least making sure it’s well spent) on the banks of the Potomac. |
| Bruce Blackistone (Atli) - Tuesday, 12/05/06 12:04:17 EST |
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RE: Old Safe used for welding tables--There was a story in the local paper (Davis Enterprise) this last week where they found several musterd (sp?) gas containers in the door of a safe they removed from a store in Woodland CA. These were placed INSIDE the door so if a thief cut into the door, trying to break into the safe, it would puncture the container(s) and poison the perp. Out of 6? containers, two were empty but four were full and needed HazMat disposal, with all the associated song and dance. You might want to CAREFULLY look inside the door. Clear and cool in the Sacramento Valley of CA. Frost has nipped the tips of my jackaranda trees, but this is at the limits for this plant, which came from the Brazil highlands, considered by some the most beautiful tree in the world. There ate two other jackarandas here in the Peoples Republic of Davis, my four more than double the total. One of the others is a full-sized tree, so hope springs eternal |
| - David Hughes - Tuesday, 12/05/06 12:38:35 EST |
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Mike Hill: Chrome, Moly, Vanadium with 75 points carbon should make a great blade if heat treated appropriately---deep hardening with a fine grain. Mike; I'd try making your knife out of a big old file to get high carbon content. Ken, firepots designed for coke use are *MUCH* heavier than those designed just for coal. If the end user is planning for light duty hobby type work there should be no problem but if they plan to spend a 3 day weekend cranking out pattern welded billets then the firepot may suffer a shorter lifespan. |
| Thomas P - Tuesday, 12/05/06 12:44:59 EST |
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K. Nelson: I'm glad that worked out well, but don't try it with any safe which wasn't designed for security: There are a lot of "Fire Safes" out there which are almost all concrete. A typical fire safe will yield to a burglar with carpenter's tools (skill saw, pry bar and a framing hammer) in WAY less than an hour. I believe the minimum UL security rating involves holding up for 15 minutes. Now, one out of a jewelry store or pawnshop will probably do the job, as would a lot of small bank safes. . . OTOH one out of a title company might well not have enough steel in it to be worth moving. Gun safes generally are just fire safes. |
| John Lowther - Tuesday, 12/05/06 12:46:16 EST |
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RE: Poison gas in safe doors--from the 12/3/06 Davis Enterprise-- Nick Concolino's expertise in explosives takes him all over the country. But a recent call from West Sacramento took him back in time. The retired Davis police captain recently played a role in identifying the contents of several canisters found hidden in the door of a 1930s-era safe discovered at a West Sacramento demolition site. It's believed the canisters contained chloropicrin, a "cousin" of mustard gas that was used during World War I . . . . Rest of the story much as I describe it above. |
| - David Hughes - Tuesday, 12/05/06 12:58:23 EST |
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5160 anneal. I went to the FAQs Heat Treating and can't make sense out of the 5160 annealing sentence. |
| Frank Turley - Tuesday, 12/05/06 13:17:44 EST |
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To vicopper, quenchcrack and guru: Thank you for responding to my inquiry. |
| Randy Scott - Tuesday, 12/05/06 13:17:56 EST |
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To Frank Turley: I did not mean to overlook your response. It was not there when I started my reply and was there when my reply was posted. |
| Randy Scott - Tuesday, 12/05/06 13:23:26 EST |
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'ROUNDING NUMBERS' My general experience has found that generally accepted practice is to round to the even number when right in the middle. For example, .375 becomes .38 and .125 becomes .12. |
| - Tom H - Tuesday, 12/05/06 13:25:32 EST |
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SAE 5160: Frank, that is what the book says. Cool rapidly to 1300°F, then slow to 1200°F. For a predominantly spheroidized structure the same applies but at 10°F/hr instead of 20°F/hr. There are four methods listed for annealing 5160. The other two methods call for cooling rapidly to 1250°F and holding for 6 hours for pearlitic, 10 hours for spheroidized. |
| - guru - Tuesday, 12/05/06 14:45:35 EST |
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hey just wonderin how long it takes you guys to make some tongs? |
| - newbiesmith - Tuesday, 12/05/06 16:30:34 EST |
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Thomas P: I stand corrected. Spoiled by having one of the SOF&A Zeller firepots I guess. |
| Ken Scharabok - Tuesday, 12/05/06 16:35:49 EST |
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Time to make tongs: It depends on the size and style. But small tongs normally take from 45 minutes to 1:30. A lot depends on your forging skill, welding skill and or if you have help such as a power hammer. I've watched Peter Ross of Williamsburg make tongs from the wrong size stock, drawing the reins and making the rivet in about 1/2 hour. But here you are talking one of the best. Working alone with marginal skills you can plan on each half taking an hour or so for a total of two hours. Making tongs is good practice for a newby and gives a sense of satisfaction in knowing you can make your own tools. But it is far more economical to buy tongs from a professional. Beginner tongs are also often clumsy. For many years I called the heavy useless tongs "farmer" tongs until I saw a crate full of them. They had come from an old manual training school where they taught blacksmithing. Student tongs are unmistakable. They have reins much too heavy for their length and jaw size and the jaws rarely fit anything. Old tongs were almost always made by forging the bits then forge welding on the reins. The best have reins that taper all the way to the ends but many tongs have cylindrical reins. With a power hammer or forge roll tongs are made from one piece. Old hand made tongs often have multiple forge welds as they were often apprentice practice pieces or were made from available scrap. This is also a good way to make the long taper of the reins, welding taking less effort than drawing out if you are good at welding. |
| - guru - Tuesday, 12/05/06 18:19:42 EST |
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Tongs. Working by myself at the anvil, with two 3/4" square bars in the fire for flat jawed tongs, forge welding on the reins, fitting the jaws, adjusting the reins, making and using the rivet, it takes me about one hour; no breaks. Sometimes it takes a little longer, if Murphy of Murphy's law, interferes. |
| Frank Turley - Tuesday, 12/05/06 20:01:44 EST |
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newbiesmith, Guru's absolutely correct about making tongs, real time consuming but great practice and very satisfying when done correctly. Now, if you want to "cheat" a wee bit, get you some old wornout hoof nippers, remove the rivet, heat and shape the ends for whatever purpose you need (don't quench the ends, they're carbon steel and might crack from the temp change), re-align and re-rivet them and you don't have to mess with the reins portion of the job so you save a lot of work time. Plus you can usually get used nippers for 5-8 bucks apiece which is considerably cheaper than pro made tongs. |
| Thumper - Tuesday, 12/05/06 20:14:05 EST |
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thanks for all of your info, i guess the type of tongs i was talking about was either ones to hold squar sock or round, cant remember the names |
| - newbiesmith - Tuesday, 12/05/06 21:55:35 EST |
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newbiesmith, Bolt tongs. |
| Frank Turley - Tuesday, 12/05/06 22:50:32 EST |
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Old Safes, Also be careful that old firesafes are often insulated with the concrete like stuff AND asbestos mixture. The UL rating "TL-15" is 15 miniutes in a workshop environment of getting the door open and I believe without destruction of its contents. Even given the advantage of virtually any desired tool and the design and blueprints available to study before attempting entry. (I dont know if that includes set-up time for example to attack with a large milling machine Typically a TL-15 rated safe is constructed of solid slabs of mild steel at least 1" thick, The door is a slab 1.5" There will be super hardened inside plates to protect critical points of the locking system from drilling attack. The typical old concreted firesafes were made before UL listings etc. And may or may not have internal security features of hardplates etc. Or as we learned poison gas canister !! |
| - Sven - Tuesday, 12/05/06 22:51:56 EST |
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Aren't there basically two different types of safes with two different construction materials-- those intended to thwart thieves, and others designed to protect the contents from fire (for a specified length of time)? |
| Miles Undercut - Wednesday, 12/06/06 01:03:01 EST |
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Safes, Yes thats basically correct, Fire safes and security safes. Security safes may be awarded the "TL" tool resistant ratings. But there are alot of security safes that are built for fire protection standards also. In very general terms here, Often that additional insulation what may consist of a cement and silicon carbide like nuggets and its steel outer shell gives added protection will also make an other wise TL-15 upgraded to TL-30 rating. Its a nice thing to be buddies with the Safe and vault people, Not only for workbenches made of vault doors, But they always have old bank teller cabinets what are an excellent assembly of bearing roller steel drawers, The makings of excellent workshop furniture. |
| - Sven - Wednesday, 12/06/06 01:43:49 EST |
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newbiesmith. I suspect you might have been thinking of double-V jawed tongs. They can hold either round or square. Bolt tongs for round stock hold round nice, but not square so well. You can still make your own out of farrier nippers as noted above. Weld on suitable sized angle iron pieces over the cutter edges and then use a palm grinder to remove the stock with the inside of the V's. Angle iron works well off the rack for 3/8" and 5/8". For other sizes you have to use the next size larger and take off some of the sides. As an example look at eBay #280033810497. |
| Ken Scharabok - Wednesday, 12/06/06 01:51:24 EST |
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can anybody tell me if a five horse single phase motor would run a samual plat 160lbs mechanical hammer i had a 7.5hp but do not have enough incoming supply the 5hp is 12amps capicitor start capicitor run and i can run it in the shop i have seen this hammer run with a 3 phase 5hp motor is there much difference in power between the two |
| david.hannah - Wednesday, 12/06/06 02:46:52 EST |
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Can anyone provide some information on wood steel? For example, what it is how it differs from other types of steel, how it is made. Thanks. |
| - Rashaan B. - Wednesday, 12/06/06 03:06:31 EST |
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Hey, Paul Wilson, didja ever think of looking down in the lower left hand corner of this page to where it says "Last Post"? Do that, and then start scrolling backwards. |
| - TheOther PW(3dogs) - Wednesday, 12/06/06 03:48:16 EST |
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As far as high speed tong making goes, I think the "Dempsey Twist" is slicker'n snot on a Teflon doorknob. |
| - 3dogs - Wednesday, 12/06/06 03:59:53 EST |
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guru iwant to start blacsmithing yet i cannot find an affordable anvil(under $100) any advice? |
| C.J. - Wednesday, 12/06/06 08:46:05 EST |
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C.J.: Goto harbor freigt and by 1 of there 110 lb 1s. |
| Ken Scharabok - Wednesday, 12/06/06 09:07:39 EST |
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Platt Power Hammer: David, Little Giant used a 3HP on their 100 pound hammer and a 7.5 HP on their 250 pound hammer. Your 160 pound hammer is right where a 175 pound hammer at 5HP would fit on the Little Giant Graph. Note that LG was prone to using oversize motors so this should be plenty. Little Giant Motor's Graphed Note however that speed is an issue. If you try to run your hammer faster than the hammers on this curve it may not work. See the Little Giant specs The 100# ran 275 RPM and the 250# ran 195 RPM. Half way between these is 235 PRM. However, the dynamics of a mechanical power hammer is related to its stroke and spring. Some with a short stroke and stiff spring will run much faster than a hammer with a long loose stroke. Starting power is irrevelent in a power hammer motor as the load is not applied until after the motor is started. Note that when you reduce motor sizes you often reduce the available inertia which is directly related to the motor armature size. Many modern high efficiency motors have light weight armatures that do not have the same inertial loading capacity as an old heavy frame motor of the same power. SO. . your hammer SHOULD be able to run on 5HP at 235 RPM but that may not be the optimum RPM for the hammer. Generally it is OK to run a hammer slower than optimum. However, if you run it faster the hammer hits lighter as it goes faster when it passes the optimum speed. At this point the hammer gets out of timing and does what we call "The Little Giant Hula" with the linkage going down when the ram goes UP and vise versa. Not a pretty sight. For the absolute best information on hammer speeds see our review of the Dave Manzer Little Giant Video titled "How to cure the Bang Tap BLues". We also sell this video on CD-ROM. |
| - guru - Wednesday, 12/06/06 09:12:40 EST |
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Cheap Anvils: CJ, I want a good used HD 3/4 ton pickup for $1000 or less but I doubt I will find one. I want to retire to Costa Rica but that is doubtful on my current income. That is life. The anvil from HF is junk but you get what you pay for. There was a broken Wilkinson anvil listed on our Hammer-In. It looks ugly and it beat up but even broken and beat up it is infinitely better than the HF junk anvil. However, you would have to travel to central Virgina to get it. Or pay shipping. |
| - guru - Wednesday, 12/06/06 09:19:11 EST |
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Wood Steel: Rashaan, I have never heard this term. However, the Japanese make a non-ferrous laminate material called Mokume' Gane' to complement laminated steels. Mokume' Gane' roughly translates to "wood grain". Laminated steel can look like wood grain when a simple pattern is used. Laminated steels are made of two or more steel alloys with different content so that when etched one will etch and color more than the other. Nickel content is known to reduce etching and make light in dark etched laminates. High and low carbon steels are also used. This is said to reduce cracking by having the soft steel reinforce the hard steel. There is also a difference in how high and low carbon steels etch but not as much as alloy steels. For purely decorative use pure iron or very low carbon steel and pure nickel are laminated and etched. This produces the most brilliant of color difference when etched. Laminated steels are made by forge welding multiple layers together in a billet then cutting and rewelding the billet until the layers are as fine or coarse as desired. THEN there is good old fashioned wrought iron. Wrought has bands or pure iron and silica slag and silica slag bearing iron. When it corrodes the pure iron lasts longer producing a definite wood like effect. However, wrought is not steel and cannot be hardened. |
| - guru - Wednesday, 12/06/06 09:31:32 EST |
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Wood Steel = Wooz Steel? |
| - Hudson - Wednesday, 12/06/06 10:33:40 EST |
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I am looking for some info on Fish hook making. How do you cut the barb? I did a search and got a lot of choices but I havn't seen anything. On the bright side I've been looking around on this site for a couple of days now, and I'm trying to figure out how to add blacksmithing in with all of my other hobbies! The hooks I am lookin at are Salmon hooks so they are made from some pretty heavy stuff. At least heavy for fish hooks. Thanks Tim |
| Tim - Wednesday, 12/06/06 11:01:57 EST |
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Guru, at 240bpm my 35# JYH (spare tire type), has done the hula so I run it at 160bpm for now, could a stronger spring the answer? Right now it's running on a motorcycle shock spring. Can't afford the LG Video till after Christmas but I'd like to fool around with tuning it in the meantime.(5 grandkids, 4 kids one wife and a ton of coke have left me "monetarily challenged" for the time being). |
| Thumper - Wednesday, 12/06/06 11:16:16 EST |
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Tongs Note. I put a Vee-end bit on my bolt tongs; it makes them more versatile. Many manufactured bolt tongs had half-round ends. The old Atha bolt tongs came in many different sizes, all bits half-round. The majority of hand forged bolt tongs (sometimes called hollow bit tongs) had the boss/rivet area formed of flat stock. The small diagonal "2nd shoulder" that is found at the base of a flat tong jaw is often absent, is not needed, because there is not the same kind of a mating/clearance situation. There are different approaches to making bolt tongs. I start with flat stock and put a ¼ twist, hidden, in the curved neck portion to align the jaw properly. The 1917 edition of Harcourt's book* shows a carefully forged bolt tong starting with round stock. A half round bit could be done with bottom swage and top fuller. A vee-bit is done into a bottom 90º vee swage with an appropriate top tool. Square mild steel held on the diamond will work in a pinch. Some smiths hot split the bit lengthwise and then open it up and forge it to shape. Several ways to skin a cat. * "Elementary Forge Practice" |
| Frank Turley - Wednesday, 12/06/06 11:44:00 EST |
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Thumper, a heavier spring should increase the max RPM the hammer can run. |
| - guru - Wednesday, 12/06/06 11:45:25 EST |
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Barbs: Tim these are cut in the steel while annealed with a very sharp cold chisel. It helps to have a small swage to support the hook stock. Hardening is done with the steel protected from oxidation. |
| - guru - Wednesday, 12/06/06 11:49:44 EST |
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More Barbs: In factory production there is a good chance they are using spring temper wire and doing the barbing and, bending and looping in the as-delivered steel. This means using very high carbon HSS steel for the barbing tools. In high production operations it is not unusual to have tools of this type that are continually sharpened as part of an automatic process. |
| - guru - Wednesday, 12/06/06 11:53:51 EST |
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Not a good idea #338-06: So cold in shop my plumber's propane bottle wouldn't put out heat. Put three in my oven at 200 degrees to warm them up. Two near empty, one half full. As I was taking them out the fill valve on the most empty one let go. Fortunately it was an electric oven. When to the scrapyard and bought an old refrigerator to put a small light bulb in. |
| Ken Scharabok - Wednesday, 12/06/06 11:59:42 EST |
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On the Safes, We have no idea the pedigree of these babies but both have had the locks pulled, I assume since he was a locksmith that something broke and wasn’t worth fixing. We put their age around the 1950’s but that is just an off the cuff guess on style. You could clearly see they were security safes because even the locking safety deposit boxes inside were 1” plate. The outer doors are both beveled round plate that close and lock with a crank. With the locks removed we hope that any booby traps are long since gone. I don’t see where the door has a hollow large enough to hide a canister, sounds solid in all the places we smacked with a hammer. We don’t plan on fishing for them so they can just stay there. Drilled and taped for the vice and with a series of holes drilled for bending pins we are very hap |
