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January 2010 Archive

WHY THREE FORUMS? Well, this is YOUR blacksmithing forum to use for whatever you wish within the rules stated above. It is different than the Slack-Tub Pub because the messages are permanently posted and archived.
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J. Dempsey  <webmaster> Rev. 7/98, 3/99, 5/2k, 6/2k, Friday, 04/06/01 16:43:25 GMT

Lawer joke: So, there were four men rideing in a train car on their way across Europe, one was Russian, one was a Turk and two were American (one was a lawer and the other was a biker)
They had gone a little ways when the Russian brings out a bottle of fine vodka and offers each man a shot. After eveyone has had their fill he stands up and, much to the suprise of the others, throws the nearly full bottle out the window. As he sits back down he explains to the suprized men that "in Russia, vodka is like water and we have more than we need". The others all nod their heads in understanding.
After a while the Turk produces a fancy silver cigarett case and passes around the finest Turkish cigaretts made to his fellow travelers. After each man has aviled himself of his offering, the Turk stands up and thows the entire silver case and all out the window and explains to his bewilderd companions that, " In my contry I can have such tobacco anywere I go, we also have more than we need" To wich the others nod in understanding.
Some time goes by when suddenly the biker jumps up and grabs the his fellow American by the scruff of the neck and the seat of his pants and thows him out the window with out a word. The Russian and the Turk both jump to their feet in shock and demand an explaination for this horrible act, to wich the biker calmly responds, as he sits back down, "He was a lawer"
The two men are visably releived as they take their seats, nodding their heads in understanding...

I can't take credit for that one. I think I read it in Easyrider several years ago...
- merl - Friday, 01/01/10 23:29:35 EST

Miss Steaks: A girl I knew in the middle east once wrote to me to say she was very sad that her sister had died or "pasta way" as she put it. I think that was more to do with voice recognition software though.
philip in china - Saturday, 01/02/10 01:57:40 EST

Another lawyer joke...: A Rabbi, a Hindu priest and a lawyer are travelling together and need a place to stay for the night. They find themselves at a farmers house. The farmer, having been the brunt of too many daughter jokes, decides to let the trio stay in the barn. The Rabbi goes in, comes out 5 minutes later. "Listen, there's a pig in there. Pigs aren't Kosher, I can't stay in there!". The Hindu priest goes in, comes out 5 minutes later "Oh holy Vishnu! There is COW in there! Cows are SACRED, I can't stay in there!". The lawyer goes in, 5 minutes later the pig and the cow come out....
- Nippulini - Saturday, 01/02/10 07:56:45 EST

Lawyer's : Nip

Ain't that the TRUTH!!

I told a corrupt lawyer/dishonorable judge once he was $!%#head and asked him if he wanted to meet in a parking parking lot because of his harrasment and unethical behavior. Did he ever squeal like a piggy for twenty five minutes after being called out. He turned out to be a loud mouth coward!! Lawyer's spend a career breaking the law and knowing how to manipulate the system, so they don't get metal braclets. They should get an automatic whooping at the local jail once a year for good measure!!
- Bubba - Saturday, 01/02/10 23:42:47 EST

OK Bubba, I can see you are upset. Lets just take a minet to breath and calm down. Besides, where are you going to find enough poeple willing to carry out these yearly a$$ whoopins'? Well, ok, I see your point... You start gettin' the volinteers rounded up and I'll send some busses over to pick 'em up... (insert appropriate wise a$$ imodicon here)
- merl - Sunday, 01/03/10 00:33:52 EST

Legal need: While I do not like dealing with lawyers, and I've had my share of business with them, you will appreciate one that "works the system" when it is in your favor. Twice, I've been the target of lawsuits and twice I've been glad to have a lawyer.

In one case a neighbor was claiming 2 acres of our property were his. HE knew he was wrong but he knew there was a defect in our deed. I had a stack of evidence that we were right and no chance of losing in court. However, our lawyer insisted we ALSO claim the property under "adverse possession". I didn't want to do that because it seemed unnecessary and maybe unethical. However, when we won our suit, the judge said we had proved our claim beyond any doubt BUT to be SURE this cannot happen again I grant you right of "adverse possession" because my decision in this cannot be appealed.

SO. . the judge, who knew the "tricks" of the law, did us a great favor and our lawyer as well. It was obvious that our lying scheming neighbor would not stop if the case had been simply settled by the "preponderance of the evidence". He could have appealed the courts decision and kept us in court for YEARS which we could not afford. But the judge made sure that would not happen. Nice guy.

In another suit which we could have lost due to the emotional issues there was a last minute offer to settle. The offer was what our one day in court was going to cost, $5,000 with a 50/50 outcome that could have cost us much much more. We settled. Our lawyer could have lied and told us we were sure to win and he would have earned $5,000. Instead it went to the other party, who, got very little since the money would go mostly to their lawyer. . .

One bad point of the American system as often pointed out by Canadians, is that in most states you cannot sue for legal costs even in a frivolous lawsuit. But in Canada the costs of a suit are automatically awarded to the loser. So, you see no frivolousness suits, no slams against the little guy, no suits where people know they can make money by the other side settling to AVOID legal fees. That last type of suit is what makes insurance suits so profitable. In the U.S. the insurance company weighs the cost of a law suit against the payoff. If they can buy off the claimant (right or wrong) they will do it. BUT, If in these suits the loser had to pay then there would be no profit in it for the phony back-pain and whip lash settlement cases. . . The system creates the opportunity and both individuals and lawyers take advantage of it.

You want lawyer jokes. . talk to lawyers. . .
- guru - Sunday, 01/03/10 11:38:22 EST


Sounds like you got one of the very few good lawyers. In this modern day it is almost unheard of.

I am glad you were able to keep the acres. Right now I am squatting on it with my house trailer...LOL ;)
- Bubba - Sunday, 01/03/10 14:49:12 EST

I am saving you a beer and a mason jar of clear liquid when you stop by. ;)
- Bubba - Sunday, 01/03/10 14:51:38 EST

Whooping: I don't know how automatically yelling at someone would help.
- Frank Turley - Sunday, 01/03/10 18:01:17 EST

Whooping: Perhaps halitosis is an issue;).
Judson Yaggy - Sunday, 01/03/10 20:02:34 EST

Since I know, and am closly related to 2 ethical lawyers, perhaps I am not a dis-interested observer.

My brother did huge amounts of pro-bone work for folks that could not afford legal help, and he chose them sorta based on how bad they were being abused by the system. Since he was a partner in the firm pro-bono cost the firm and him largely, and since he did not do it through any organization he did not gain favor with clients, or the courts. Just an ethical lawyer, doing something to try to right the system from time to time.

The Rock has also done similar, and has been studing the system to be a court appointed representive for children who are wards of the court. That too would be pro-bono.

Be careful when painting with a wide brush lest you get paint on yourself.
ptree - Sunday, 01/03/10 20:57:32 EST

Starting this first week of January we are presenting both a Weekly cartoon AND a daily cartoon. Weekly cartoons will be at the top of the page and daily at the bottom. Don't miss our hard working New Year party anvils!

Frank Tabor is sending us 6 new comics per week and our in-house artists are producing our own series of comics so that by year end we should have an inventory that will not need to be re-run in less than a year. Hopefully I can keep up with the scanning and setting up.

- guru - Monday, 01/04/10 01:58:17 EST

Good vs evil, ying & yang, balance of the scales. Which side is weighted more? We own our experiences and realities, but no one elses.
- Bubba - Monday, 01/04/10 01:59:35 EST

Lawyers: I won't repeat any lawyer jokes. Just say that I am told there are more lawyers in USA than in the whole of the rest of the world.

Government of the people, by the lawyers, for the lawyers.
philip in china - Monday, 01/04/10 07:29:27 EST

paint...: ptree, you know I'm just having a little fun with the only lawer joke I know.
- merl - Monday, 01/04/10 08:35:21 EST

...not to mention real estate agents: We heard a statistic that there is one real estate agent for every 14 people living in Santa Fe.
Frank Turley - Monday, 01/04/10 09:18:55 EST

Disgraced Bobby DeLaughter Miss. prosecuter & judge to report to federal prison. Civil Rights Icon. Lawyers go figure.
- Bubba - Monday, 01/04/10 14:43:38 EST

Merl, I know the difference between a good joke and...
I even sent Mike BR my wife's favorite lawyer jokes.

My one and only engineer joke,
During the French revoloution, they are in the process of guillotining the elite of Paris. They have a line fresh for the start of the day. First is a priest, and they run him up, slap the lunette down and yank the handle. Down comes the blade but stops about 6" shy of touching his neck. The official, shocked states, "OH, it is God's will. You go free!" And off scamper the lucky priest. Next up is a lawyer, and down comes the blade, and again stops 6" shy. Again the lucky fellow goes free. Next is an engiuneer. and they are marching him up to the scaffold, he looks up, grimaces and says "Heh guys, if you don't get that knot out of the rope this thing is never going to work!"
ptree - Monday, 01/04/10 19:51:33 EST

Comics: "After The Party" would be a great one for a poster at the "Hangover Hammerin" that Mike & Kim Awckland have every year.
- Dave Boyer - Monday, 01/04/10 21:28:03 EST

Ptree: That engineer was dead right...
- Dave Boyer - Monday, 01/04/10 21:32:51 EST

After the party: We would be glad to license our art. I spent all weekend on those three.

Hope you folks are enjoying the comics. They have been a ton of work but also something different and a fun to do.
- guru - Monday, 01/04/10 22:56:20 EST

comics: thanks for the comics Guru. Your talent shows in your work. I, for one, do enjoy them.
I know anvilfire is a labor of love for you but, even so, I don't see how you do it. Again, your commitment shows in the quality of this web site.
- merl - Tuesday, 01/05/10 00:17:44 EST

The site: The reliability of this site is also remarkable.
philip in china - Tuesday, 01/05/10 06:28:01 EST

Reliability is tough. We are preparing to add some database driven features which scares the bejabbers out of me. . I've seen too many sites completely disappear due to maintainability issues or software failures. We recently moved to a new server. Users would not have seen but a momentary glitch. But we sweated over the move for almost a year, botched one attempt and had to regroup and try again. While one would think a Unix server is a Unix server every one is setup differently and every one will have different versions of various software to be addressed. Ever try to move all your stuff including old software to a new version of Windirt? It is not nearly as bad on Unix but there are always surprises.

This is our fourth server move in 12 years without loss of data or downtime.
- guru - Tuesday, 01/05/10 09:58:17 EST

Duh, Hullo.: Pardon my obtuseness, but how do I locate the cartoons?
Frank Turley - Tuesday, 01/05/10 10:25:13 EST

Frank, There is a cartoon icon and button on the left of this page if your screen is tall enough.

It is also in the menu column on the home page and most of our pages with the new menu system. I noticed I need to add it to the drop down menu as well.
- guru - Tuesday, 01/05/10 10:33:03 EST

I've fixed the drop down but it will take a while to see depending on your browser cache.
- guru - Tuesday, 01/05/10 10:43:52 EST

cartoons: Sadly I don't see those nifty cartoons either. I fed the page magic growing beans and I still can't locate them...:( :)
- Bubba - Tuesday, 01/05/10 10:43:55 EST

Note that on the cartoon page you can click on a "Previous Comic" button in the menu column to see last week's weekly cartoon and yesterday's daily cartoon.
- guru - Tuesday, 01/05/10 10:55:49 EST

Bubba, click Home (at the top of the page), Then Daily Comics in the left hand menu column.
- guru - Tuesday, 01/05/10 10:57:11 EST

I am still looking for a non-manual filing solution to fitting 3/4" pipe within 1" pipe. My steel supplier does not carry tubing nor can they special order it. With my Rockwell replacement drill press I think it has the horsepower to do the drilling. Sort of a vertical mill concept. However my problem is trying to hold round pipe in square jaws. Regardless of how tightly I secure the jaws, it still spins on me. Ideally I need something like self adjusting chuck jaws which can be secured to the drill press table. Or somewhat to hold short sections of 1" pipe in a square jaw vise securely. Perhaps something like Grizzly's prismatic jaw G-1065 coupled with their quick release drill press vise G-5760. Both are on page 249 of their 2009 catalog.

I have a growing concern the machine shop owners who lathes down sections of 3/4" pipe to fit won't be open much longer. He has shut down except for the occasional job where he may have one or two of his laid off employees come in. He is bidding on a fairly large contract and if he gets it he will stay open. If he doesn't he said he would likely shut down completely and auction off the equipment. This is a fairly large shop doing precision work.

Guy in White Bluff, TN who is closing his small machine shop. Has a large, old and ugly lathe for $700 on Craigslist for Nashville. I can send pictures if someone wants to comment on it. I don't see how it can be used in the concept of a hortizontal mill.
Ken Scharabok - Tuesday, 01/05/10 11:19:54 EST

The lathe in White Bluff is a Rockwell- by lathe standards, its a small, home shop or school lathe, most likely a ten inch swing.
If it is tooled- that is, if it has a 3 jaw and 4 jaw chuck, a steady rest, a drill chuck for the tail stock, and a pile of miscellany, and its in good shape, it might be worth as much as a grand. Sounds to me, though, as if its more like a $300 to $500 lathe.

However, you need to call around more for tubing, first. There are lots and lots of distributors out there, and often you need to go a bit farther afield to find what you want. There are certain things I order from New York, or LA, or wherever, to get the right stuff.
UPS will carry tubing if its cut down to something like 6 or 7 foot lengths- since you only want pieces a couple inches long, you can find a distributor anywhere in the USA that has it, get em to cut the stuff in thirds, and ship UPS.
But my guess is that there are places in Knoxville or Memphis or Nashville that have it, and will either put it on a truck, or ship it common carrier. I get stuff like that all the time- small 20 foot bobtail delivery trucks, for local shipping companies, are constantly delivering metals to my area from places as far away as Portland Oregon, which is almost 300 miles from here.

As for holding the pipe- there are v blocks available for drill press vises- the grizzly setup would probably work, although you might want 2 of the v blocks- but your problem is going to be that your little drill press doesnt like running a 1" bit, and it will vibrate the taper loose and the chuck will fall out.
- ries - Tuesday, 01/05/10 11:53:47 EST

Drilling 3/4": Ken, I am sure your drill press is not slow enough for 3/4" in steel. Its not the HP, its the speed. My big 25" drill will drill 1-1/2" diameter with 1HP (its has 1.5) but it requires back gear for low speed and torque.

I also have a nice old Sear's floor model drill press. Due to speed it is only good to 1/2" in mild steel and less than 3/8" in annealed tool steel.

Feet per minute FPM or RPM is everything in machine work. For standard steel speeds of 100 FPM a 3/4" drill bit must turn 526 RPM. However, I've found that drilling goes better at lower than the recommended FPM. 300 RPM would be better.
- guru - Tuesday, 01/05/10 12:36:50 EST

Holding short sections of pipe.:
If I was end drilling a bunch of short pieces of pipe I would make half round jaws to fit. Take two pieces of CF steel bar greater than 1/2 the diameter needed plus a steel shim (.010 to 1/16) and drill/bore a hole between the two to fit the pipe. This is actually a lathe job.

The two blocks would securely clamp a piece of tubing without distortion or marking it.

Two V-blocks also work for this OR one V-block and clamp. I made one from angle iron with a base for mounting vertical on the drill press. See link:
Drilling 101 - Furniture
- guru - Tuesday, 01/05/10 13:37:29 EST

Ken, I gave you a link where you can buy the tubing in 6 foot lengths. A drill is not what you want, it will always hang up you need to find a "bridge reamer" they are tapered and are made for enlarging holes. You'll still need low RPM.
- grant - Tuesday, 01/05/10 14:16:45 EST

JUNK YARD STEEL ID: Annyone happen to know what kind of steel "Cleavland Punch and Die" corp. uses to make their sheet metal punches? I've been collecting the worn out ones from work. We use them in an old turret punch for 10 to 20 ga sheet steel. Various holes & slots.
Dave Leppo - Tuesday, 01/05/10 14:45:36 EST

Ken Scharabok, If I were to want to hold pipe vertically, to drill or ream, I wouold use a small three jaw chuck from a lathe, as I have one, and mount that to a plate to allow bolting to a drill press.
How many do you do, and how fast trun around needed? I have a lathe, and we could work a deal to do them. The best shipping might be flat rate boxes. The shipping might make it non attractive.
E-mail me if interested.
ptree - Tuesday, 01/05/10 18:24:48 EST


I'm sure this will make the machinists out there blanch, but when I've needed to enlarge (nominal) 1/2" pipe to 5/8" ID, I've clamped it sideways in a vise and sort of wrestled a 5/8" bit in with hand-held variable speed drill. Keeping the pipe parallel to the vise jaws helps the grip, as does the cross-hatching on my bench vise. The bit will definitely grab, so make sure you have a good side handle. And 1" will be tougher to do than my 5/8" was. Easy enough to give that way a try, though. A 1" hole saw might be worth a try as well.

I think I mentioned this before, your pipe segments are probably short enough to work in from each end with a die grinder.
Mike BR - Tuesday, 01/05/10 19:18:27 EST

Ken Scharabok, I just went through the latest ENCO flyer, and they offer an import 3 jaw chuck for $69

Another though, if short and not much diameter change ball the id's. That is place the nipple upright onder a press with the approiate pusher and push a ball bearing through the id. If not much size change probably do cold. If not than heat the nipple and push that ball through.
ptree - Tuesday, 01/05/10 20:40:52 EST

Movies: No Highway in the Sky:
How playing on Hulu. James Stewart and Marline Dietrich.

While a bit dated this is one of few movies based on the battles that metallurgists and engineers face. Its been nearly 50 years since I saw this movie and it was one that stuck with me even though I'd only seen it once.

There is one scene where the scientist (Jimmy Stewart) tells off the board of inquiry then stomps off. It reminded me very much of a meeting where I told plant managers that they could believe whatever fairy story they wanted but they were wrong and we were right. . .
No Highway in the Sky
- guru - Wednesday, 01/06/10 13:14:10 EST

comics: Ain't thems some dandy comics. I loves thems anvils.
- Bubba - Wednesday, 01/06/10 14:10:21 EST

steel prices: Hi i am doing a school porject (geuss what now? the bessemer process :D) and i cannot find the comparitve values of steel pre and post bessemer process (my google fu is weak). kinda an odd request, but where else will i be able to find someone who will know stuff like this?
bigfoot - Wednesday, 01/06/10 17:34:00 EST


I may have to drink a few beers over this. I had the perfect book on the bessemer process. I went and looked for it. Then I had a memory recall where I tossed it out on a cleaning kick. The book was very musty and I have become sensitive to this. I should have just demolded it. It is a real bummer to me. Sorry I can't help. Just kickin meself.
- Bubba - Wednesday, 01/06/10 19:19:20 EST

OLD Books, Catalogs:
Old catalogs are THE great primary resource for certain information and can be a chore to maintain as they are now largely not hard bound and sometimes difficult to categorize. I have not yet looked into moving my father's engineering catalog library as it takes about 200 square feet of shelf space. Mine only took a mere quarter of that until I tossed my 10 year old hard copy of Thomas Register which reduced the mass quite a bit.

The problem with engineering libraries is that they rapidly become outdated unless you are warehousing the collection for historical purposes. But you will find interesting facts in old catalogs. Things like the fact that you could purchase 4140 in any plate thickness up to 18" in the U.S. flame cut to shape for $1/pound and Blanchard ground for a little more and had it delivered anywhere in the U.S. in less than a week from Joseph T. Rhyerson and Sons in the 1980's. Many of the sizes they STOCKED then are difficult to find theses days much less get a quick quote on. People just do not realize how huge our industrial decline has been. . . These old catalogs are the proof for the historians.

The problem libraries have is that much of this sort of information is old dated and dead. Nobody looks at it. More current information such as Thomas Register and others is now available on CD or PDF's and much easier to store. But that leaves out the entire 20th Century collection of catalogs and the great changes in technology of the period.

I recently purchased a turn of the century collection of the American Blacksmith and Blacksmith and Wheelwright and some other miscellany from Richard Postman. Another large case of books (about 3-4 square feet of shelf space plus some oversized). These things get passed from one collector or researcher to another. . . Some I will scan to put on anvilfire, some is for research. How long I keep the whole is a question. They were expensive and could be easily cashed in.

You will see a few pages of old catalogs on I probably paid close to $100 each for the old catalogs and so far have only used the couple partial pages shown. On the other hand, at least one catalog was from my father's collection dating from the 1950's that was FREE to him. . .

When we launched the Family business in 1979 the first task was to get subscriptions to New Equipment Digest, Machine Design and others, then start sending in the catalog request forms. The second step was to build bookshelves. THEN we needed catalog bin boxes to store the softcover catalogs and loose sheet fliers. . . .

Then sometime in the 1980's we paid someone to make a computer card catalog of all the information we had collected. Like much data generated in the 1980's it was in a proprietary format (on an Apple computer no less) that could not be converted or extracted later. . . . Such goes the library business.
- guru - Wednesday, 01/06/10 20:09:11 EST

catalog collections, preservation of history, industrial decline...: "Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat its mistakes..."
- merl - Wednesday, 01/06/10 21:39:09 EST

More. . .:
Most of that wonderful collection from Richard Postman is hard bound. Great for preserving the old publications, TERRIBLE for scanning them. . . Digital media may preserve and distribute these things but not without cost.

I could use a full time assistant to do all the scanning we have to do. . . Its like a lot of crappy jobs, boring but it must be done with attention to detail and quality. Then there are the screw ups. . . The last book we scanned had thin pages and text on the back of pages showed through too much on many pages to use. Now it must be rescanned using a slip of black paper inserted behind every page. . . triples the time (or more).
- guru - Wednesday, 01/06/10 22:39:10 EST

Bubba no worries, but if you could remember the title i would send you a digi high five :D my local library is pretty big and i am nearby about 3 so i can probably find anything i need.
bigfoot - Thursday, 01/07/10 08:35:35 EST

Bigfoot; I'll check my stack of ASM "popular" metals books to see if they have a comparison in them.

The one I remember was that high carbon steel made from wrought iron was still up to 6 times as expensive as WI at the time of the US Civil War; unfortunately most of my research shuts down with the Kelly/Bessemer Process (and as you are researching the Bessemer process I hope you know about Kelly!)

How Fast do you need the data?

Thomas P - Thursday, 01/07/10 11:45:42 EST

calendar of events and comics...: I knew there was something important coming up at the end of January. "Hammer Handle Holiday" will be apon us befor we know it so lets all be ready with the appropriate insperational music and favorite "bevys" at hand. I'm going to use this time to try and clean up my shop a bit as well. I think the trail, through the soot and scale on the floor, going from the anvil to the bench to the belt grinder ect.. is deep enough.
I thought "H.H.H." was later in the year toward the end of march but I see by the calendar of events it's the last day of Jan. to the first day of Feb.
That's good, it will give us snow bounders something to do. (snowing a dirty one, even as I type)
So,spread the word, everyone needs to participate if we want this to turn into a Federal holiday so we can all get another day off from do some more work, I guess...
Not to sound like a public kiss up but, I have to tell you Guru, the more I look at your anvil cartoon drawings the more I like them. Keep up the good work!
I was wondering though, what would a bunch of anvils be drinking? Probably using the slack tub for a punch bowl and sneaking behind the forge for a nip from the quench oil...
- merl - Thursday, 01/07/10 13:58:33 EST

Thomas i know that kelly invented the bessmer process, but he did not have the money so he sold the patent to Bessemer, who made the money off of it. and i need the info ASAP preferably yesterday. :D
bigfoot - Thursday, 01/07/10 14:22:13 EST

Comics: We have many more coming. I've been told my anvils look like sharks. . I guess they sort of do. We have two other cartoonists with completely different takes on anvils. Mine will probably be far and few. But we have some good "idea men" that come up with funny ideas. I do all the processing and colorizing (so far).

Slack-Tub juice, Quench pot snake oil, Brine to wake up. . .
- guru - Thursday, 01/07/10 14:35:08 EST

Handle Day:
Yep, time to survey those handles and order new ones if needed. We sand and varnish so you may need a can of varnish OR your preferred finish. When you have a lot of handled tools that do not get used much varnish is best for preserving them while you may be oiling your favorite forging hammer. Some paint will slow down the rust on those rarely used tools as well. A can of spray paint goes a long ways on hammer, punch and swage heads. We used black last year and I think I will use something brighter this year. . .

THEN, If you work with others or carry tools to demos there are those color stripes on your handles to keep them from getting accidently picked up by others.

I used to use a stripe of white paint but found another shop doing the same (to designate sizes). So take a hint from Fletchers and use a series of colored stripes (only takes a couple colors) to ID your tools. Works on hammers, punches and tongs. . . Add masking tape to that list of supplies.

Depending on the hammer I have found that on low use tools that cracked handles can be glued instead of replacing a tight but cracked handle. Work carpenter's glue into the crack then wrap with string to hold tight. When the glue is dry remove the string and sand the rough spots. I then varnish and if the crack was near the head I tape the area with electrical tape, especially if there are divots or dings. Most breakage at the neck of the handle is due to a mis-blow or abuse of some type. I've never had a well glued handle fail at the repair. This makes a lot of sense on old odd sized hammers that had perfectly sized handles that are hard to replace without carving the entire handle.

SO, we have a supply list of: handles, varnish, glue, string (for gluing) paint, masking tape and electrical tape. I make wood and steel wedges as needed.
- guru - Thursday, 01/07/10 14:59:54 EST

...sharks...: Non-sence. They DON'T look like sharks.
They look like anvils look when they come to life late at night after everyone else has locked up and gone home.
I had my suspicions of this and so snuck a peak in the window of my shop late one night. 'Corse it was dark but, by the lite of the half moon I seen 'em whit' my own two eyes! They must have felt my presence 'cause when I tried to get a better look they all froze, just where I left them...
- merl - Thursday, 01/07/10 16:16:10 EST

If you use linseed oil you can soak the head and wipe it off and do the handle with the rag.

On some of my handles that I wear my tool colour off fast I have started taking s drill bit and putting a dimple in the end of the handle to hold a dot of my colour that doesn't get worn.

Reason to rehandle now is that winter is usually *dry* and it can be done in an inside heated location...

Thomas P - Thursday, 01/07/10 17:09:30 EST

Handles: Whenever I shorten a bolt I always keep the end I saw off. Then I forge them into wedges when I have nothing else to do or get a student to do some for me.

Jock, I don't mean this as advertising but would just like to say that a handle company in Tennessee sent me 120 assorted hammer handles for a ridiculously low price of $100 as a contribution to our shop here. They were partly slight seconds- although 100% usable and servicable and from best USA hickory. The price included a load of wedges both wood and metal ones. So I am set up for handles, I should think, for the rest of my working life.

The locally made and fitted hammers here are indescribably bad. They have a quality control system. A handle is examined and if there is a flaw in it- as in a piece missing or a crack the QC label is stuck over the flaw. This is quite literally true. You couldn't make it up could you??
philip in china - Thursday, 01/07/10 19:23:46 EST

Latest "Anvils in the Parks" Story:: I was at one of our parks the other day, inspecting their light industrial facility. Of course, I asked to see the anvil, and they admitted that they didn't have one, they just used a big (BIG!) mechanist's vise.

"No anvil?" sez I; "How do you keep the Coyotes away?"

"Ah;" replies the assistant superintendant; "so that's why they're already here!"

Well, you grab what amusement you can. ;-)
Chesapeake and Ohio Canal National Historic Park
Bruce Blackistone (Atli) - Friday, 01/08/10 09:06:13 EST

Hi bigfoot

Sorry, I do not remember the title of the bessemer book. My memory is getting fuzzy with age.
- Bubba - Friday, 01/08/10 12:35:41 EST

Bubba thanks a ton for the effort. it is not a problem i found a book at my local libary with most of what i need (in case you care)
bigfoot - Friday, 01/08/10 13:22:42 EST

Who would believe that Coyotes and Anvils would be forever linked? I wonder what Warner Bros. would have to say about someone making Coyote Brand anvils?

Yep, The library. . . Where real information still resides. . . at least for a while.

The power of modern libraries is that you can search their card catalogs from half a world away. When looking for really hard to find information the on-line catalog will help you find those special collections where one library has a special focus and maintains those books no matter what their condition OR how often they are used.

The tricky part is that many of these special collections are not lent and you must travel to use them. The gold is where you find it. . .
- guru - Friday, 01/08/10 14:04:02 EST

bigfoot, glad to hear you found what you need.

Guru, I love your anvil comics. I may have to print them off and hang them in the shop. You have a great imagination. I want to see the frog welder. I must have missed that one. I like frogs.
- Bubba - Friday, 01/08/10 15:58:45 EST

"The Library" I was just across the street and a fellow was sending off for a $32 or more hammer; but saying he couldn't afford to buy the books he needs to LEARN to use it.

I hope he profits from my rant about public libraries and ILL!

Thomas P - Friday, 01/08/10 16:09:57 EST

libraries are a great place and they are free so if you use them the only thing to lose if you go their is you time. so i can agree with thomas about using them
ps. bubba thank you for taking the time to try and help me, it was really nice of you (in case you didn't know! :P)
bigfoot - Friday, 01/08/10 16:25:28 EST

The problem with public libraries is they serve the most common need. This does not allow a lot of specialization. ILL is great, I've used it and my public library had a budget to cover the shipping. But it is too slow if you have a research paper due (even in six weeks).

I've found college and University libraries to be much much better than public libraries and all state University libraries are open to the public (except during certain periods like exams). The problem with these is they can be TOO big and too difficult to learn to use in a short time span. The two I used at UVA were the Engineering Library and the Music Library. I visited their general library one time and got lost in the stair wells. . . Its huge and difficult to navigate.

I've been to the LOC (Library of Congreess) both as user and visitor. Great place. Its exactly as you see in the movie National Treasure 2. But its easier to use their catalog from a distance. Like any establishment in DC, you should plan to spend days there, not hours.

In our field, blacksmithing, hand metalwork and primitive metallurgy, private libraries are about the only significant collections if you are doing research. I've not seen Thomas's or Atli's or Frank Turley's but I'm sure they are significant collections.

While mine is fair it includes my many interests as well as opportunistic purchasing. It includes old and current metalworking text books and machinists manuals. I have 3 volumes of the ASM encylopedia and 3 or 4 more of their specialized references. I also have half a dozen ASM references from the 1940's, a collection of CRC Handbooks similar to my collection of Machinery's Handbooks (both boxed up and only opened for research). But I have at least 4 Machiery's Handbooks on the shelf for regular use. Almost all the books you see on our review pages are on my shelves. There is a first and seventh edition of Architectural Graphic Standards, A full set of the Foxfire books, Most of "The Chemical Formulary", Dictionaries (large, small, English, Spanish, French) and an Oxford Compact Edition (requires a magnifying glass to use). There is an Encylopedia Britanica from the 1980's (their new enlarged edition at the time), books on art and artists. . . Catalogs of various types. The rare books include many on locksmithing and the recent addition of year of the "American Blacksmith". Then there are a hundred others that don't fit categorization other than they are technical references of some type including building and electrical codes to computer programming texts. While it is not a vast library I've been moving for 5 years and have not moved all of it.

I will need to catalog the whole sometime. . .
- guru - Friday, 01/08/10 18:51:57 EST

Today's new cartoon: Is by TGN (Nippilini).
- guru - Saturday, 01/09/10 09:48:53 EST

Meteor story: My metor story is here rather than Guru's den, because I want to ramble on. In 2003, my wife and I were returning from a Nebraska workshop, and we were going through Greensburg, Kansas. A sign by the roadside said, "Home of the Largest Well." We stopped and found directions to the well and it's adjacent museum. In the museum was a dark colored pallasite meteor weighing 1,000 pounds. Apparently, "pallasite" indicates that portions of the meteor were stone and non ferrous crystalline structures. In the small room with the meteor was a Native American "flag" which is a staff decorated with fur, colored cloth, and feathers, reminiscent of a coup stick. My wife is a Native American, and she was questioning why the Indian decoration in the room. Then, an epiphany. The meteor looked like a buffalo head! It even had some areas kind of like eye cavities. We suspect that some Indian noticed the resemblance and made the flagstaff as an offering. We really don't know its history.

In May of 2007, a hellacious tornado leveled much of Greensburg. I read on the internet that the museum had been all but destroyed. We were most curious about the disposition of the meteor. A few months later, we learned that it was found in almost the same location buried in museum debris. I think the meteor was then taken on a trip in Kansas. It was transported to at least two museums for display, one in Wichita and one in Hays. In 2009, it was returned to Greensburg to be placed in the new museum structure.
Frank Turley - Saturday, 01/09/10 11:38:14 EST

Somewhere, I think the statistics say that 1 person a year is struck by a meteorite. As we increase in number so should this statistic, however, the fact that more of us spend more time indoors may cancel the increasing numbers.

I'm still waiting for one to land in the back yard. . .
- guru - Saturday, 01/09/10 14:40:11 EST

has anyone dealt with Diamondback iron works? his smallest gas forge is just right for me, but i have not heard anything about his customer service and such.
bigfoot - Saturday, 01/09/10 14:55:25 EST

HUGE Tool Collection for Sale: The estates of Hunter and Jean Pilkinton have now been settled. All of the tools in Hunter's World of Tools Museum are up for sale on an individual, make an offer basis. Stanley wood block collection is gone, but almost all of the blacksmithing-related equipment, including anvils, are still available. For an appointment call Donald Pilkinton at 931-266-4184 or (Donald doesn't check e-mail on a regular basis.)

Seems like Hunter numbered every tool in the museum and had a 3" x 5" card on it (something like over 30,000 cards) with what he knew about tool. You need to ask for cards separately.

Please feel free to spread this information to any other forum and such who you think may be interested.

I can pretty well assure you neither of their two children have any pride of ownership in the tools so whoever gets there first may get the best deals.

I don't know about the extensive equipment and tools in his personal shop, but suspect they are also available on a make an offer basis.

For those which need to stay overnight there is a motel in Waverly, TN. If you would be camping, I have plenty of yard space with electric and water available. I'm about one mile from site of tool museum.
Ken Scharabok - Saturday, 01/09/10 14:58:28 EST

Years ago, I went to a zinc mining museum at the northen tip of New Jersey. They had a car on display that had been hit by a meteorite. A good sized hole punched clean through the trunk . . . and the gas tank. No sign of fire, though.
Mike BR - Saturday, 01/09/10 17:37:49 EST

I love those odd little museums, you never know what you're going to find. Probably get it from my dad who loves them too, and he has the knack for finding the one tour guide or security guard who worked there back in the day and has great stories. I remember he made friends with an old timer at the Shelburne Museum here in VT who was in charge of the horse drawn implements barn/display. He had been a carriage maker and then a groom then "retired" to taking care of displays at the museum. Knew everything there was to know about horse drawn stuff. Another time we were touring the old silver mine in Silverton CO and he got the one remaining worker turned tour guide to start telling stories about how they all bought the lift/gantry operator drinks at the bar on Fridays because if you didn't you might find yourself in a little steel cage (elevator) suspended from a long cable bouncing up and down over a thousand foot deep mine shaft because he got "distracted" at the end of your shift. Love those museums.
Judson Yaggy - Saturday, 01/09/10 18:43:06 EST

Hand Crank Blower for Sale: i have a hand crank blower for a blacksmith's forge i am looking to get rid of. i am asking about $150 (because i know it will work with some minor tweaking, maybe 30 minutes of work). also i will include brake rotor or drum will be included if you pick it up and i will ship at cost.
bigfoot - Saturday, 01/09/10 20:38:07 EST

Location?: Bigfoot, Where are ya?
Frank Turley - Saturday, 01/09/10 20:57:39 EST

OOPS! i forgot to add that. I am in Southwest CT
bigfoot - Saturday, 01/09/10 21:06:42 EST

Nips cartoon: Nip, I realy like the anvils in your cartoon.
They look like they could realy turn into a couple of "blue collar intellectuales"
- merl - Saturday, 01/09/10 22:31:52 EST

Thanks Merl! I used to do comics for a local entertainment rag when I was in high school. I even dabbled in animation for a little bit. Keep an eye out for more!
- Nippulini - Monday, 01/11/10 09:05:39 EST

leather working lap anvils: Guru, I like the wood and steel "composit" anvil the best.
Probably not the most effective tool of the bunch but, has the most character...
- merl - Tuesday, 01/12/10 21:50:54 EST

Corrected telephone number for Donald Pilkinton: 931-622-4184.
- Ken Scharabok - Tuesday, 01/12/10 23:09:15 EST

Helical gears: Has anybody ever cut helical gears on a vertical machining center?
- TylerMurch - Wednesday, 01/13/10 19:08:27 EST

Helical Gears: Tyler, I've only read about it. A big part of the process is the change geared dividing head that rotates with the travel of the machine. Not all mills have this capability. The table must also feed at an angle (I think). If you need references I can look them up. I suspect its in my "Machine Tool Practices" with references to Machinery's Handbook for the change gears.

I have a geared dividing head for a Cincinnati Mill but no mill. . . Also no gear bracket or gears. Still works as a heavy dividing head. Has some pivot damage. . . and rust from the last flood. . . weighs about 100 pounds.

- guru - Wednesday, 01/13/10 20:24:23 EST

Helical Gears: This is the 5 axis CNC machining center at school. I have a few ideas I need to run by the teacher then I can go further from there.
- TylerMurch - Wednesday, 01/13/10 21:55:35 EST

5 Axis. . .: Well, with the right programming that machine should be able to machine any shape. On fancy machines gear shapes are generated using straight cutters.
- guru - Wednesday, 01/13/10 22:25:50 EST

Dividing Heads:
These are interesting tools. Most have 40:1 gearing which makes one turn of the handle 9 degrees, half a turn is 4.5 degrees, 10 turns is 90 and so on. With the dividing wheel you can divide a part into every integer from one to about 400. There is a crank with a pin that goes into one row or rank of divisions in a wheel and two brass "wings" that you can set for a given number of holes.

Determining the number of turns and part turns (and thus the dividing wheel rank to use) is quite a trick. You calculate and determine the least common denominator and fraction of a turn. It really gets your algebra back into practice. After picking up my dividing head (old used as described above) I decided to make a wall chart of all the settings.

After I had spent a couple of long days calculating and finishing up my chart I happened to be looking in Machinery's Handbook for something related to the dividing head. . . And there was the full chart, specifically for a Cincinnati dividing head!
- guru - Wednesday, 01/13/10 22:27:07 EST

Making true helical gears: I have never heard of anybody that made end mills for gear cutting. That is not to say it can't be done just that nobody does it. Helical milling is done all the time and in many different forms but, an end mill with a gear tooth profile on it would have to be custom ground and would be very inefficent unless it was cutting very large teeth.
I actualy have a few gear tooth cutters that fit on the arbor for my Harding horizontal mill but I can't cut helical gears with it because my machine doesn't have the swivel table needed for this.
Helical milling is usualy only a two axis operation involving the X or Y axis and the 4th that is sometimes called the A or B and may also be in the form of a removable rotary head.
If you wanted to cut a tapperd helical path you would still only need the X or Y, the Z or W and the 4th (A or B) so that's still only three axies and almost any modern cnc can make a simultaneous 3 axis move or, set it up as if cutting a tapper on a manual lathe.
As the Guru points out on a manual horizontal mill you would need the powerd dividing head driven from the X axis screw, the gear tooth form cutter on the over arm and horizontal arbor and a table that has a swivel on top of the saddle so the X axis can move in a straight line but at an angle to the axis of the cutter.
There are lots of pictures of this setup for the old Brown&Sharpe and Cincinnati machines that were commenly used to make millions of gears in their day, in the older machinists handbooks . Still not as versital as a gear hobber but, likely a faster set up for the occasional need in a typical job shop.
- merl - Thursday, 01/14/10 00:07:44 EST

Merl, sitting in my shop is a circa 1902 Cincinnati #1 1/2 Universal Horizontal mill. I have the original geared dividing head, and I think all the change gears and mounts etc to drive it. The geared table feed, Patented by Cincinnati in 1900, however is wrecked. I hope to eventually get the feed fixed. I found a lindsey reprint, by Cincinnati, "A treatise on milling" that has all the info for the drive gears and deviding head.
ptree - Thursday, 01/14/10 07:01:54 EST

ptree, while I'm sure it is not your intention to make me jelous, it has occured none the less(evil grin)
When I worked at the Marvel Saw Co. the had a shop full of Cincinnati equipment although nothing that old. We had five manual horizontal mills of the larger size and had the power driven rotory table for each of them. Of corse they didn't use the rotory tables anymore so the stuff just sat in the tool crib collecting dust and tempting me to try and fit them in my lunch box... No one would notice me trying to carry out a 300lb rotory table under one arm would they...?
- merl - Thursday, 01/14/10 09:02:34 EST

Helical Gear Cutter for Vertical Mill: Would an endmill ground to the correct pressure angle generate the involute shape as the X axis feeds across and the indexing head turns?
- TylerMurch - Thursday, 01/14/10 13:46:31 EST

...If the indexing head (4th axis A) is set at an angle I believe it will. Now to figure out what angle...
- TylerMurch - Thursday, 01/14/10 14:00:38 EST

Tyler, I think on the machine you are using the gear profile is generated using a straight sided cutter (or ball end). Takes a gear program to form the involute and have the cleared bottom as well as all the picky parts of the profile that makes gears work. . .
- guru - Thursday, 01/14/10 16:23:11 EST

Merl, the mill is a flat belt drive, converted to run off a jack shaft and motor. I need some Brown & Sharpe #10 arors as the ones that came with have runout. Also someone in the past put zerks in all the oil holes, and filled with grease. I am fixing up some stuff to flush out the grease and return to oiled. The table is in good shape. The deviding head is also in good shape, and oddly, it came with a 3 jaw scroll chuck that fits on a od thread on the spindle. The three jaw is hand tightened by an od ring. I also need a replacement flat belt to drive the table drive input to the gear box. I work on it as time and items become available.
I saved a Lodge and Shipley 14
- ptree - Thursday, 01/14/10 18:57:55 EST

Cont' Lodge and Shipley 14
- ptree - Thursday, 01/14/10 18:59:12 EST

1 More time.
Saved a lodge and Shipley 14" by 56" tool makers lathe. Took 4 years and about $450 to get a variable speed drive lathe in excellent cobdition.
ptree - Thursday, 01/14/10 19:00:39 EST

Just discovered that my spell checker doesn't recognize the word "Luddite". Got a good chuckle out of that.
Judson Yaggy - Thursday, 01/14/10 20:06:49 EST

Helical gear cutting: See, that's the thing. Helical milling is the easy part. I used to cut single and double helixes and chevron groves into precision roll faces up to 14 feet long and 24 inches in diameter all the time.
I programed my cnc engine lathe to cut what ever pitch thread I needed, mounted a J type Bridgport milling head on its side, in place of the tool post and, got myself a chair and a large cup of coffe while the machine went to work for a couple of hours.
Yes, what you suggest CAN be done. If you want to try and grind a form cutter for the profile of this helical gear cutting experiment fine, then do it. Threr is a reason why NOBODY ELSE trys to cut helical gears this way. You are going to end up with a part prosess that you can't controle and a finished part that doesn't work... but, you're probably just like I was when I was just starting in the trade. You'll have to prove it for yourself so you'd better at least enjoy it.
My job for this work week (Friday, Sat and Sunday) is to make two aluminum adaptor rings for a customer on the SIGMA cnc bridge mill I run.
6'OD, 5'ID by 5.5" thick. Wide open tolerances all around except for the 62.502"-62.504" by.187 deep counter bore. I also calculate about 3 hours and 35 minets just to drill all the 1/4-20 and 3/8-16 tapped holes around the perimiter. Total time aloted for job is 20 hours per piece.
It keeps me employed I guess...
- merl - Thursday, 01/14/10 22:08:30 EST

Helical Gears: Merl my idea is just that, an idea. Whether you (Merl) knows how to do it or not remains kind of ambiguous. It's really puzzling. You tell me my idea is no good but you don't tell me the way to do it. I've yet to find anyone that knows how to do it. Until then I'll keep scheming along with my contacts of old school gear hobbers and CNC programmers until I think I've figured something out and go to try it.
- TylerMurch - Thursday, 01/14/10 22:47:31 EST

What gets saved and what get away: I used to work for a company that some how the owners got invited to the privet final auction at Kerny & Trecker when they closed up shop in Milwakee.
They came away with some good, some OK amd some poor machines and, one of the only two horizontal boring mills that K&T ever made. It was beutiful!! One of the most well thought out and executed machines I have ever run and in pristien condition.
On the other end of the spectrum, the antique tractor club I belong to had several nice older machine tools donated to them two years ago in the spring. They sat under some poly tarps waiting for storage space all summer. By the time I found out about them they were uncoverd, full of water and rusting right were they had been let off the truck.
Very nice old machines rapidly going to hell, "Can I buy that big old horizontal mill?" No, it would have to come up for a vote at the annuale meeting in December. "Can we at least get them inside somewhare after the show?" No, we just don't have the room for low priority items. "By December these machines will likely be junk that can't be fixed." Yeah, well, what 'er ya' gonna do?
When I came back in the spring I see the machines are gone and foolishly think that maybe I got through to the guy in charge and he had them put away. Yeah, he had them put away alright. Away out to the fence line of the show grounds and dumped them under an old oak tree...
At least I had the presence of mind to rescue the 4x12" electro-mag chuck from the surface grinder befor they were "put in storage"
You're lucky with that Lodge&Shipley, they made a very nice machine.
Talking about that electro-mag chuck, does anyone know how to wire the on/off-demag switch on one of those? The chuck I got is missing the switch entirely
and we only have a manual magnetic chuck on the surface grinder at work so, I can't even sneak a peak at it.
I'm thinking probably a double poll, double throw for ON, OFF, and REVERSE POLARITY to de-mag??
- merl - Thursday, 01/14/10 22:51:01 EST

Helical gears...again: Ty, look up a little ways and you will see that I explained that helical gear cutting CAN be done on a horizontal mill with the overarm and arbor and an arbor mounted cutter with the gear tooth profile you need ground on it. The work would be mounted between the centers of a tailstock and a power dividing head that is driven off of the X axis lead screw and the machine table must be able to swivel to acheive the required lead of the helix. That is how it is done on a mill.
The nuance and subtleties of the cutter profile and the setup to make the part in a vertical machining center do not escape me. It gives me a headache to think of all the issues I would have to address to make this part in a VMC, especily when I already know how to make it the right way.
You're right, I was being ambiguous, in the hope that I wouldn't be drawn into a long but fuetile explaination of why you shouldn't bother with this endevor.
Please proceed and, keep me apraised of your progress. I'll help you if you want but, now I have to go to bed and, I work this week end so, I'll be back Monday.
- merl - Thursday, 01/14/10 23:18:29 EST

bingo?: Grind a single point tool and hold in a fly cutter or boring head. Cut along the side of the gear blank with the B axis tilted up.
- TylerMurch - Friday, 01/15/10 00:38:49 EST

Tom H: Tyler
You will have to consider the helical angle.
Picture your set-up except with the head or B axis tilted not quite straight but at the helix angle so the fly cutter can pass through without hitting the back side.
The end mill idea might be just as practical.
In either case, you will need to fool around with the profile of the ground cutter if this item interfaces with another gear of some sort.
I have patched up a few large ring gears, (picture a ring gear from a auto rear end), that were about 20" dia and made of bronze, with a jury-rigged set-up of tilted head with large fly-cutter tool and offset rotary table.
The difference though was the simple cut at each tooth indexed at each tooth as opposed to your case with a continuous moving C axis or whatever is the rotating axis.
Let us know how it comes out.
Tyler, you are making us old chip heads smile with pleasure.
- TylerMurch - Friday, 01/15/10 04:30:57 EST

TylerMurch: Well I got you and me mixed up!
- Tom H - Friday, 01/15/10 04:31:51 EST

Propane forge: I recently made a coffee can forge, i made a custom burner out of a burnz oxy/mapp gas torch, dropping the oxygen tank. I finaly tweeked the burner just right and while I was making a set of tongs it just melted around the where the burner was inserted. I was wondering if i used sheg 40 well casing and a fire brick under the flame, would i be able to use it without insulation?? used up everything I had for a while and it is hard to get around here and I am on a fixed income for now.
- Joshua - Friday, 01/15/10 08:11:56 EST

Yes, that would work,
- merl - Friday, 01/15/10 09:44:26 EST

Joshua, No. Part of what makes a mini-forge (or any gas forge) work is the insulation. The heavier tube will work better. You also need to be careful about how and how far in you mount the torch nozzle as they can easily be melted as well.

E-mail me your address.
- guru - Friday, 01/15/10 09:48:54 EST

not exactly what I said...: not everything came through on my post for some reson.
I said yes that would work "in theory" but, as Tom H has pointed out above you need to observe the helical angle in your set up or your tool will get caught on the back side of the cut.
What you are proposeing is to emulate the set up in a horizontal maching as I have described above.
You would still need to include all the components of that setup to make it work.
- merl - Friday, 01/15/10 09:53:10 EST

The B axis will be tilted up at the helix angle. I have the formulas for calculating width of the cutting point, OD, pitch, number of teeth, dedendum. The speed of the A axis (indexing) and the feed of the X axis can be timed in relation to eachother in the program rather than using change gears. I still need to learn how to calculate change gears, and hobbing is still the fastest way to do it, but this is good to know too. A lot of shops don't have hobbers or universal mills.
- TylerMurch - Friday, 01/15/10 11:35:38 EST

I tube alone is about 10" and the flare i use is only 1 1/2" long I was going to point it straight down, before i had it at a ruffly 2oclock position. I just need to find insulation. Before i had some old aspestos (I took necessary procautions when handling) and coated it with stove cement rated for 2100 deg F
Joshua - Friday, 01/15/10 12:10:05 EST

As far as the indexing and feed rate goes, I think that would be a ratio based on the lead, no ?
- TylerMurch - Friday, 01/15/10 13:45:41 EST

TylerMurch, for the most lucid explanation of how to cut gears on a horizontal mill, giving all the details and loads of explanation look to "A Treatise on Milling & Milling machines" The Cincinnati Milling machine Co, 1919. This is available from Lindsay publications or off several sources used on the net.
The theory will pretty much apply to all gear cutting and also has great explanation of all the tricks to cutter shape.
I got mine used, in like new condition for about $13.00
ptree - Friday, 01/15/10 18:24:52 EST

Merl - chuck: You are right about the reversing polarity for the chuck. It is of course DC, hopefully the voltage is marked on it. Ideally, the release position is a spring loaded position for momentary contact.
- Dave Boyer - Friday, 01/15/10 19:43:33 EST

I thought the de-mag pos was AC on a DC coil. . .
- guru - Friday, 01/15/10 20:00:10 EST

Tyler - helical gear: Do You expect Your form cutter to act as a hob or as a gear cutter? By this I mean:Do You want to cut 1 tooth at a time then index the blank like You would in a universal mill?

If this is what You have in mind look closely at the relationship of how that cutter will pass the blank as You move the X axis. This is quite a bit different than what happens when You swivel the table on the universal mill and feed on the helix angle. You have mentioned tilting the index head, but what You really need to do is tilt the X axis.

If You were to work with the blank's axis horizonal and cut the tooth form with a formed end mill You would stand a better chance of getting a proper tooth form. You would still have to fiddle with the cutter shape to get the shape You want on the tooth
- Dave Boyer - Friday, 01/15/10 20:06:28 EST

Electromagnetic chuck: Most of ones I used reversed polarity momentarily. Only momentarily, or You have the work stuck again. This is done with a drum switch that has a spring return on the release position.
A really sophisticated chuck controll will reverse polarity briefly several times, each at a lower power level leaving little residual magnatism in the part, only ever used 1 like that.

If You put 60Hz AC on that chuck the work will try to jump up & down along with the 60Hz like it does on a demagnatizer.
- Dave Boyer - Friday, 01/15/10 20:19:41 EST

chuck: Thanks Dave, I didn't even think about it being DC!
That would have been an itneresting flip of the switch...
No, there aren't any kind of data plates or electrical requirement tags on the chuck.
I was thinking about getting a cheep HF electronic tool mag-demag unit to see how it was wired up and try to reproduce it for the chuck.
Now that you mention it, I remember the de-mag switch on another chuck I have used was spring loaded too.
I see what you're saying in your later post about only momentarily reversing the polarity befor the work would be stuck down again.
I'll take another look at the chuck tomorrow for any kind of wireing info.
Thanks again.
- merl - Saturday, 01/16/10 00:57:48 EST

your VMC gear cutting setup as I see it...: OK Tyler, now that you have me drawn into this, let see if we are talking about the same thing.
First I have to retract my earlier affermation of your "bingo" idea. It won't work the way I visulize what you're describing.
The centerline of the gear blank and the centerline of the cutter must ALWAYS be in line with each other.
They must run together just like two gears in mesh would (excluding hypoid gears at this time)
If you make a setup with the fly cutter as you describe and lay the 4th axis on its back so the work centerline and the spindle centerline are parallel to each other you will not have included the helix angle in the setup.
If you make the above setup with the 4th axis still lying on its back but, at the "helical angle" your tool centerline and work centerline will only intersect each other at one infinitesimal point, as the spining tool travels up the side of the rotating part, in the Z axis.
If you propose to grind the tooth profile on an end cutting endmill you would only need to align the 4th axis with either the X or Y (parallel to) and coordinate the X/Y and 4th axis to produce the gear tooth form. The centerline of the tool and the centerline of the gear blank must still ALWAYS be in line with each other and, you will end up climb milling one side of the tooth and conventional milling on the other, unless you can do a mirror image of your tool path to climb mill one side and then run the tool path backwards to climb mill the other side of the tooth.
The only other way you could do this in a VMC is if you had a universal swiveling head attachment for the spindle.
You would set the 4th axis flat on its back with the blank and spindle parallel to each other. With your fly cutter type tool you would then set the helix angle from the universal swivel head that is mounted to the spindle and the axis moves would be Z+ and A(rotation timed to Z).
May I please go to bed now? 4:30 come mighty early...
- merl - Saturday, 01/16/10 01:48:37 EST

Gears: Our local company here in Dujiangyan makes machines to cut gears (hobbing?). They are guaranteed to an accuracy of 3 seconds. Accuracy might run better than that- that is just what you are guaranteed. The factory is spotless as you would expect. At the opposite end of the sclae they have a separate factory where they cast the beds for their machines. The castings are all 1 piece units despite some of them being several tons.
philip in china - Monday, 01/18/10 09:54:51 EST

Gear Accuracy:
This is a complicated subject. You have spaces between teeth, between their centers, the diameter of the pitch lines, centering to the shaft and the theoretical distance between shaft centers so matching gears work together. The shape and smoothness of the curve is measured in microscopic amounts on higher performance gears. There are 10 classes of gear accuracy the last few of which require gears to be tested in pairs and have fine honed surfaces. High accuracy gears are used in aircraft engines where the speeds are at the absolute maximums possible for a mechanical drive. I try not to think about it when flying. . .
- guru - Monday, 01/18/10 10:10:32 EST

I contacted the people from the video posted below. They have proprietary software that generates the tooth form. Seems kinda pointless to make one the way I was going to do it. Thanks merl and guru and Tom and Dave and ptree.

- TylerMurch - Monday, 01/18/10 19:01:30 EST

Tyler: We had a 7 axis horizonal boring mill at the plant that probably could run a tool path like in the video, that is it could have BEFORE they crashed the compound universal atachment. We did not have the CNC capable rotary table, however.
- Dave Boyer - Monday, 01/18/10 20:29:32 EST

power hammers for sale: We have 2 pwr hammers for sale, one new style, one old style. 1946 model Little Giant 100#pnd completely refurbished, like new with combination dies,1912 model Little Giant Mayer Bros. extra parts, toggle arms and toggle links,ram guide and ram with dies. Other blacksmithing and fabricating tools for sale.
- Wade Tool Inc. - Monday, 01/18/10 21:50:10 EST

upsetting services: I have a hydraulic upsetter that I am looking to keep busy. Would like to offer my services if capable. Can produce as much as 100 forgings an hour. Already have dies for forging latch collars on hexagonal hollow drill steel.
Wade Tool Inc. - Monday, 01/18/10 22:10:33 EST

Ty, the persuit of knowlage is NEVER pointless.
Cool link too BTW. It led me on an hour long wild goose chase looking at all the related stuff.
I told you I didn't want to drawn into this...(dumb grin)
- merl - Tuesday, 01/19/10 00:01:17 EST

TylerMurch: The gear type and approximate size shown in the depogear video is the kind that I have repaired on a Bridgeport. The gear was bronze and the application was a machine drive in an old Husky injection molding machine.

Set gear on a rotary table. Form tool of approximate correct profile in a boring bar set in a boring head. Fiddle around with the boring tool radius/diameter set-up to match the arc of each tooth. Compound tilt the Bridgeport head. Move way off center from the rotary table to the center of the arc of each tooth. Index for each tooth.
What is your application and how critical is the tooth form?
- Tom H - Tuesday, 01/19/10 05:16:41 EST

Wade Tool: Hey, do you have a link to a site or pics for us to look at? Maybe a complete listing of what's available? Also, where are you located?

- Nippulini - Tuesday, 01/19/10 13:17:44 EST

nippulini: We do not have link or pictures at this time.We are in the beginning stages of liquidation of these tools. I can take photos and send them via e-mail. Other shop items, 40-ton scotchman iron worker low hours, 1-400,000 btuhr johnson gas oven, 1-180,000 btuhr johnson gas oven, both have digital therm controls, lepel induction heater, 14"x48" schearer copy or tracer lathe. We are located in Elberton Georgia 30635
- Russ Wade @ Wade Tool Inc. - Tuesday, 01/19/10 23:55:48 EST

Tom: Are you talking about a gear or a worm wheel? Just wondering when you say "arc of each tooth" I'm not following you.
- grant Sarver - Thursday, 01/21/10 20:14:53 EST

Tom, this is just a little project for school. I'll probably do something else. I'm thinking maybe a helical impeller.
Grant, I think Tom is talking about a spiral bevel gear. The helix because it is on a bevel, is like an arc.
I gots me a second hand Habermann anvil coming next week :D Moving it from one truck bed to another. I think we're going to use a couple boards and some round bar and roll it along.
- Tyler Murch - Friday, 01/22/10 18:44:05 EST

Tyler: If they are pickup trucks put strong planks across to distribute the load. The tailgates are not real strong. A friend of mine bent one on His '78 Ford 250 moving a 55 gallon drum of gasoline, about 400#.
- Dave Boyer - Friday, 01/22/10 20:53:10 EST

If I can get my brother to come over maybe we can just pick it up. 465 pound. Friend of mine once went to look at an anvil for sale. 500 pounds. Asked how much they wanted for it and was told if he could pick it up and carry it to his truck he could have it. So...he picks it right up and starts walking to his truck with it. On the way to his truck I believe a few choice words were exchanged, and he proceeded to drop it on the ground right where he was and leave it for them to pick up again. That's the version I heard LOL.
- Tyler Murch - Friday, 01/22/10 21:17:14 EST

"If you can pick it up...": Tyler you remind me of a time when I was working as a mechanic for a class 8 trucking company.
We had a floor jack that we never used as it was too big for one guy to move by himself and we just resorted to useing bottle jacks when we needed to lift a truck.
So that jack sat in the way in the tire changeing area for about a month when one day I saw the boss trying to huff and puff it across the floor to someware else less in the way and, I help him.
When we get it to where he wants it I ask my standard question " What are ya' gonna do with that?"
wich of corse means "can I have this?"
He says "What are you going to do with it?" and "If you can get it in your truck by yourself you can have it"
What he forgot was that my "truck" is a little 15000lb flatbed with a 2000lb capacity liftgate on the back and I happen to have driven it to work that day.
My shift was over at 9am (I ran the shop at night)so while my boss was at morning break I backed my truck up to the drive in door and proceded to load up "my" new floor jack.
He came back just as I was running the tailgate up and getting ready to strap it down and says "WTF??!!"
I said "Didn't you say I could have this jack?"
He looked at that jack up on my truck, shook his head at me and said "That's a $12,000. Snap-on jack! Get it back on the floor!!" knowing that if he had been a few minets later I would have been down the road already.
He always took me more seriously after that when ever I asked "What are ya' gonna do with that?"
- merl - Saturday, 01/23/10 01:02:48 EST

Merl, I would have killed for that truck of yours on several occasions.
I was offered on different occasions, a fully and freshly overhauled Cincinnatti Bickford 24" floor drill, a Warner $ Swasey #1 turret lathe, a Brown and Shape #1 horizontal mill with universal head and many other similar, "if you can take it home tonight" deals.
Being a family man with very young ones still at home, I could never seem to get the arrangements in time.
Mind you, when they offered the all steel shipping skid and boxes from a pair of large Mazak Quick turns shipped in deck freight from Japan, I took them for the $6.00 asked for scrap price. Those made many items but one is a 16.5' dual axle trailer. Has two mobile home axles, so rather stout. Has a rigger delight of tie downs. Pulled by my 72 chevy C-20. That C-20 is actually a oddball Camper Special. 453:1 rear on 1ton leaf springs from the factory with a Persimmon Tree Forge trailer hitch.
Pulled about 7000# of Lodge and Shipley home with that as well as a big American Tool Camel Back Drill press. That trailer has been "cocked and Locked" since about 1994 awaiting just that kind of deal.
My issue is getting the stuff back off the trailer once home. That can usually await arrangements. The Lodge and Shipley sat on the trailer for almost 6 months while arrangement were made:)
ptree - Saturday, 01/23/10 08:35:35 EST

Loading Heavy Items:
One year at the BGoP spring fling a fellow had a 600 pound anvil that he was selling setting on the lawn. There was some question about pedigree of the anvil (a 20th Century no-name) and folks were turning up their nose at the $1500 price. He lowered the price to $1000 because he said he didn't want to have to load it in his truck again. . .

Well, it didn't sell. When it came time to leave we asked if he needed help loading it and he declined the help saying he couldn't get his truck in to the area yet. When he finally did, he flipped out a heavy board about 5 feet long which I thought was two steep a ramp and he scooted that anvil right up it in a few seconds and was gone. No rollers, no pry bar, just the short ramp. Apparently he had some experience with loading anvils. . .

We had a couple big floor jacks in our shop and one was like the one Merl mentioned. About 5 feet long and too heavy to move except on smooth concrete in a straight line. I certainly could not pick it up. But I would load it into a standard pickup truck all the time without help. The trick was knowing how to use the jack.

Step one was to roll the jack up behind the open tail-gate. Step two was to lock the handle in the vertical position. Step three, lean back on the locked handle and when high enough to get the front end on the truck roll it forward. Step four, adjust the handle to 45 degrees (which is now about horizontal to the floor) and lock the handle. Then list the jack using the horizontally extended and locked handle. The jack had all the leverage needed built into the locking handle.

Now. . . I've seen a number of damaged or poorly designed floor jacks with no locking handle. They are worthless on a number of counts.
- guru - Saturday, 01/23/10 08:40:11 EST

I was responding to the video link from Tyler showing a ring gear. I guess the proper description is a 'spiral bevel ring gear'.

Each tooth has an "arc" to it and I meant fiddle around with the boring bar/fly cutter diameter so the tool matches that arc.
I know, kind of crude, but it got the machine back in service a number of times.
The gear was bronze and when the machine would lock up the pinion gear would sort of chew away a few teeth. Blobbed a mess of bronze rod all over the missing teeth and start hacking away. (Think Michaelangelo, remove everything that doesn't look like the tooth!)
- Tom H - Saturday, 01/23/10 16:12:22 EST

Gettin' it home...: Ptree, I'm begining to have doubts about your dedication to the trade! If I would have been in line for a B&S horizontal and a Warner Swasey #1 turret lathe I would have hauled them home piece by piece!!(incert big dumb grin here)
Isn't that always the way though? when we don't have the time or knowlage to use machines like those they are everywhere and now when we are older and wiser the machines are rotting under a oak tree somewhere or being made into cheap Chinese anvils.

Nothing wrong with that C-20 of yours, I learned to drive on the one we had on my uncles farm when I was thirteen. I do like my truck though. It's a GMC W-4 with a turbo charged diesle, regular comercial truck and very easy to use.
- merl - Saturday, 01/23/10 22:38:28 EST

If you can collect it.....: An outdoor clock- fully working with 2 faces to mount on a corner of a building, 2 Rolls Royce generators- diesels. Never been used. A Chatwood Milner (British brand- about as good as they come) safe out of a jewellers etc. etc. Those last 2 hurt particularly as they got concreted into the basements that were being infilled. Such a shame. I would have given them all a good home.
philip in china - Sunday, 01/24/10 07:58:15 EST

to: Phillip in China -: Hey Philip - where about are you in China? I have an interest in Chinese culture and I have made quite a few chinese friends all over. Do you have a website for blacksmithing that I can see?

Matt - Cody, Wyoming

btw - do you use QQ?
Matt Hunter - Sunday, 01/24/10 09:27:38 EST

Merl, those were, "If you can take them home tonight" offers usually recieved when the scrappers were on the way.
I was also offered a Rockford planer, small enough to be interesting, big enough to preclude getting it.
Working at the big valve shop, anything scrapped was available to the workers for $0.06/# for many years.
I did bring home several, well, many tons of "future oppurtunities" that are stowed away, the ones that would not be hurt in an upper field with trees, that no one, especially SWMBO can see.

Some things I brought a few home thinking that more in our trade would be interested in. I was able to obtain 454# forged 4140 axles in the green stage. They were about 6" diameter, with a 22" flange and looked to me to be great for power hammer anvils. Not much interest, at $50 each. I have one just outside the shop door as a sledging anvil.

I brought home some Acorn platerns, and they went to several folks, but I was RIF'ed from there before I was able to obtain the 8 remaining.
So goes life.
ptree - Sunday, 01/24/10 10:58:35 EST

Rockford Planer: I worked for a shop that had a small Rockford open side planer. Yes it was small as planers go, but a pretty serious piece to move & power as home shop machines go. If I had to guess it was probably 3'x3'capacity with a 5' table travel.
- Dave Boyer - Sunday, 01/24/10 19:19:19 EST

Rockford Planer...: Well ptree I guess I'm glad you didn't get that planer, I wouldn't want to find myself harboring any jealousy towards you!
I have a picture of the very same size Rockford planer, that Dave Boyer is talking about, hanging in a frame in my shop.
A shop closed up around here about 8 years ago that had one that went dirt cheap but, I did not have the means or the building to house it in and had to let it go.
At Armstrong & Blum we had a 6x4x12, and 7x6x16 Rockford planer mill and a 9x5x25 openside point planer along with all the other bigger machines that go along with makeing big band saws.
Not nearly as big as planers can get but, getting big enough.
Running a big planer mill like that was as much fun as I'll ever have (with my clothes on anyway...)
Dave, if another one of those little Rockfords came up now I would jump on it just to get it home and, worry about the building later.
Being a planer operator is indeed a serious addiction.
- merl - Sunday, 01/24/10 21:18:21 EST

The foundry I started my apprenticeship at had about 4 big Rockford planer mills. I don't know the dimensions but they used them to mill locomotive frames you could walk through them easily. The machinists had steps to set on the bed to change tooling. They went for about $500 ea to the scrappers at the auction.
- JNewman - Sunday, 01/24/10 23:14:27 EST

Yes JNewman, it makes me sick to think of those machines being scraped too.
Some day soon I think we're going to want those machines back and it will be too late.
We won't have the facilities to make the machines in this contry or the people that know how to run them in the work force.
I was the last person to be trained on planer operation at Armstrong & Blum back in 1995.
- merl - Monday, 01/25/10 09:10:56 EST

At Vogt, we had one big planer in use, and the little one in storage. The big one was about 12' stroke. We used it to make/renew the slides for the Erie hammers mostly by then. We did have a honking big Carlton floor mill in the boiler machine shop, right next to the 96"swing by 432" between centers lathe. These next to the big vertical lathes. ALL now gone.
ptree - Monday, 01/25/10 13:40:50 EST

Rockford Planer: I ran that machine 1 time while it was in the shop, I don't think anybody else ran it there EVER. It was moved to storage and then posibly to another shop that the owners of the one I worked in bought. This machine was in good condition, but We really didn't have much need for it.
- Dave Boyer - Monday, 01/25/10 21:45:04 EST

Dave Boyer, the big planer at VOGT was in use at the Forge tool and die shop till about 1996 or so, and came out after the hammers were all sold. The hammer slides had been the last justification for it use. It was replaced with a very large OKK CNC mill.
The big Niles VTL's were all rebuilt about 1984-1987 to new condition, but had CNC controls added. That way we got the extreme rigidity of those heavy old VTLs and modern control. We would turn the heads for boiler drums on those to true up the weld preps. Those heads were often 12' diameter, hemispherical and with 4" wall. Those VTL's would handle those without any issues.

The big Carlton floor mill was often used to put as many as 450 holes in the boiler drums after the heads were welded on. Usually the tube holes were in the 2" to 4" diameter range and had tube roll in spec'ed holes. Originall that Carlton was a punch card reader for the NC, later updated to paper tape CNC. The travel was something like 36'. When you are making large utility boilers, you end up with large machines:)
ptree - Tuesday, 01/26/10 18:44:07 EST

Ptree: Our shop had a mid '80s floor type HBM, this is the 7 axis CNC I have mentioned, I don't recall how long the X axis was, but the pit took up most of the width of the 80' wide bay. Finishing plates too wide to do on the openside planer in 1 pass were milled on the HBM using angle plates. This didn't leave the finish that the planer did, but it was faster & easier.

I have never seen a Carlton mill, but knowing the radial drills the made, I am sure it was a good one.
- Dave Boyer - Tuesday, 01/26/10 21:13:16 EST

Dave, that Carlton was in three shift use from purchase to 1994. About 25+ years. It then went to the new boiler shop in oklahoma.
ptree - Wednesday, 01/27/10 18:23:06 EST

drilling angles: Anyone want to walk a noob through drilling holes at a 34 deg angle? For railing infill panels- once the drill press is set up, how do you get the drill bit to seat in and start drilling in exactly the right place?
- elementfe - Thursday, 01/28/10 14:08:43 EST

elementfe, Usually for angle drilling into a flat, either a fairly rigid milling cutter setup in amill, a hole saw in a rigid set up, or lastly a drill jig with drill bushings would be used. In todays world it may be possible to find a water jet, or lazer or plasma cutter shop able to cut off axis.
ptree - Thursday, 01/28/10 18:27:41 EST

Rails and Angles:
It is often easier to form ends of pickets and such at the proper angle and have the holes in the rail at 90 degrees.

Part of the problem with angular holes in top rail is that the usual method of counter sinking the hole then riveting the tenon will not work OR you have to do the countersink on the angled hole at 90. . .

As ptree noted a milling cutter will make a flat that the drill can be started on. The milling cutter could also be oversized to upset the tennon in the rail. Otherwise on-size would be best. A four flute milling cutter should perform best in this situation.
- guru - Thursday, 01/28/10 19:56:51 EST

Angled Holes & End Mills: If You try this method with a 4 flute end mill, be sure it is a center cutting end mill, as not all 4 flute end mills cut to the center. 2 flute cutters generally cut to the center.
- Dave Boyer - Thursday, 01/28/10 21:29:06 EST

Can anyone help this guy? I did what I could for him out of available stock but he has gone beyond my capabiliies.

"A few months ago I bought mushroom stakes from you and I am happy to say that I love them! Lately I have been working on some smaller scale items and have been wishing I had a stake or two in a smaller size, possibly a ball bearing welded to a post, maybe 1.5" or 1"? I have also been wanting a bottoming stake - maybe a piece of 1" square stock with a 1" piece of 3" diamter round stock on one side and a 2" diameter round stock welded on the bottom (something like a dumbell). If you think you can accomodate any of this or have any ideas that would work that would be wonderful. Again the tools you made me earlier have been really great and have been a life saver."
Ken Scharabok - Saturday, 01/30/10 02:45:26 EST

Ken, I have a collection of hard steel balls from valvs, and propably have both 1 and 1.5" I also have soem axle stock that is in the saze and a lathe. Direct or through Poorboy?
ptree - Saturday, 01/30/10 08:18:02 EST

Ken, McMaster-Carr sells ball bearings of all sizes and several different grades. I weld them on a 1" shaft to use in my fly press. Easy to do!
- Dave F - Saturday, 01/30/10 12:29:22 EST

Ken If you decide to weld on a ball to make the stake, a very handy stick type rod to use is 309SS. Welds stainless to carbon steel and what we used when welding the balls we used as tools at the valve shop. A pound of these in a nice size like 3/32" is a very handy shop item.
Beware that as the weld cools the flux POPS! There will be little "tings" and hot slag will pop off the just made weld with some velocity. So protect the eyes and bare skin till the welds cool or you are 6-8' away.
ptree - Saturday, 01/30/10 12:45:10 EST

Spherical Stakes and Forms:
Jewelers call these "daps" or doming tools. Some of the sets are very inexpensive. The pricey tools are the mating swage blocks.

I've found that balls up to 1" are easy to find but over that size get pretty rare and expensive.
Available Repousse Tools
- guru - Saturday, 01/30/10 14:32:02 EST

ptree: Direct is fine. Go ahead and contact him with an estimate.
Ken Scharabok - Saturday, 01/30/10 15:08:08 EST

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