Some tools to drool over.  Image (c) 1998 Jock Dempsey.  Click for enlargement. WELCOME to the anvilfire!
Virtual Hammer-In!

This page is open to ALL for the purpose of advancing blacksmithing, swaping lies, selling tools.

June 2010 Archive

WHY THREE FORUMS? Well, this is YOUR blacksmithing forum to use for whatever you wish within the rules stated above. It is different than the Slack-Tub Pub because the messages are permanently posted and archived.
This page is NOT a chat - it is a "message board"

Our chat, the (Slack-Tub Pub), is immediate but the record of it is temporary. DO NOT post permanent messages there. We refresh the "log" every 24 hours now and your message will be lost.

The Guru's Den is where I and several others try to answer ALL your blacksmithing and metalworking questions to us.

Please note that this forum uses an e-mail encryption system that prevents spam harvesters from collecting your e-mail address.

J. Dempsey  <webmaster> Rev. 7/98, 3/99, 5/2k, 6/2k, Friday, 04/06/01 16:43:25 GMT

Copyright Issues (Sticky Post):
I was checking our server logs and noticed some unusual traffic. It seems that there was a bunch of sites linking to our images, using them in their pages. This is double theft, it is copyright infringement AND theft of services (server bandwidth). For more details see:

Copyright Issues - Infringers Hall of Shame
- guru - Sunday, 04/04/10 19:13:49 EDT

merl, ptree....thanks again for the brother is quite the metal worker...he makes he own scale steam engine trains and rides on them. So after brain storming with him and after he loaded that thing his truck we came to the conculsion that it was so we will have to downsize just a bit I think. I really respect all your thoughts and help. Keep the sugestions coming please.
counting hours?.....OH YEAH every minute of them.
Camoman - Tuesday, 06/01/10 05:34:56 EDT

Semi brakedrum much too large! but makes a good base to mount something elese on.

See if SOFA has a meeting while you are in OH--we used to carpool from Columbus to Troy for them and of course *everything* you could want to smith with will be available at Quad-State in September!

Might check out the IBA conference not too far from Indianapolis IN in June just in case you will be colse...

Hope to see you at Quad-State, just look for the fellow wearing lederhosen and an aloha shirt on Friday and of course the disreputable red hat any day!

I bought several nice books on German iron work at fleamarkets in Germany, my top was Geschmidetes (¿SP?) Eisen by Kuhn (with umlaut of course).

Thomas from the Santiago Chile Airport
Thomas P - Tuesday, 06/01/10 11:31:00 EDT

Cammoman, I second ThomasP's suggestion that you look into the Tipton event and Quad Satate. I will be at both, and am generally noticable as the grey headed fellow in bib overalls. No wait, almost evryone will be grey headed and in bibs, so look for a very unusual hat, say an anvil, or a swage block, or powerhammer and I will be under that hat:)
- ptree - Tuesday, 06/01/10 12:29:16 EDT

Jeff, you forgot to mention those sexy boots you wear with the external metatarsal guards!
Alan-L - Tuesday, 06/01/10 15:13:18 EDT

Alan L, there is also that can't miss them identifier of the worlds most sexy shoes. As far as I know I wear the only pair at hammer-ins. One of the reasons I have to wear the offbeat hats. If I wore those external meta-tarsel guard shoes without those hats the women would be all over me and then The Rock would not be happy to send me off to hammer-ins.
And all of you guys that will now race out to get your very own pair, Those are the genuine "Iron Age" Brand made in the USA boots. And Iron Age is no longer in business, so you will have to settle for some lesser version:)
ptree - Tuesday, 06/01/10 17:15:48 EDT

Ok my question is....Just how many HOT women are there looking for a date? thats the case then you dont want me there cause I must say that women love a man in uniform and a big hammer and I'm still perrty sexy myself! I dont think you want me in bibs, the last time I was in bibs I still had a diaper on.
Anyway I don't think I'll have enough vacation to attend so yu'all are safe.
Camoman - Tuesday, 06/01/10 21:28:51 EDT

lederhosen and aloha shirt: Now, Camoman, you see what blacksmithing may lead you too... Can you envision yourself in a striker gang with Thomas and ptree so attired? How would you ecxpect to even keep cadence? (grin)
- merl - Tuesday, 06/01/10 21:39:07 EDT

I don't know what to say.....those guys are the ones my mother warned me about.....
Camoman - Tuesday, 06/01/10 21:44:21 EDT

OK ThomasP, we have a challenge, we have to find a way to team strike for a scary photo op:)
I have a surprise hat for Honest Bob this year, so we might include him as well.
ptree - Wednesday, 06/02/10 08:49:39 EDT

Hmm; hopefully the disreputable red hat will survive the trip to the Andes.

You may remember I mentioned a good hat for another stalwart fellow...

We'll need good implements of mass destruction---I may have to get my Ti hammer forged!

Thomas in Chile
Thomas P - Wednesday, 06/02/10 12:54:55 EDT

three times, so now I'm wondering: Thomas, will you tell us what takes you to the Andes?
- merl - Wednesday, 06/02/10 16:53:33 EDT

Senior moment ThomasP, which Stalwart fellow?
ptree - Wednesday, 06/02/10 17:02:37 EDT

I've got a feeling there's no reason in the world for Thomas to go th Chile.
Mike BR - Wednesday, 06/02/10 19:50:36 EDT

Good one Mike! I'm a bit herder for the Atacama Large Millimeter Array Radio telescope; out here testing some stuff on the real hardware! The low site is at 9000' the antenna sites are at 16,400

Thomas P - Wednesday, 06/02/10 20:52:40 EDT

Yes, 10 points to Mike BR, that was clever.
Now THAT is a cool job Thomas...
The closest I ever got to space was the time I made some experiment and test moduals for one of the space shuttle flights.
It was the Columbia, actually. No, our parts had nothing to do with the crash. Yes, the investigation did reach us. I still feel huanted by it. (MTRIP)
- merl - Thursday, 06/03/10 08:58:48 EDT

Thomas, I don't suppose we could get your Long. and Lat. so as to google earth you?
- merl - Thursday, 06/03/10 09:00:43 EDT help any? Don't think the red hat will show up from space as the horn antennas put out a cloaking signal; system down for maintanence this morning---I should be catching up on my e-mail; but after working a 13 hr shift...

Thomas P - Thursday, 06/03/10 09:23:49 EDT

Wow; just back from the high site 16,568' sure can make you feel a bit odder than normal. Up above the vegetation line for this area, looks a lot like Mars is supposed to.

I fell off the wagon and scrounged some steel construction detritus for a commemarative billet once I get home.

Thomas P - Thursday, 06/03/10 18:11:31 EDT

A question for Thomas: When you went up there did you find any hair from my dog? Everywhere I go, even places where he has never been, I seem to find his hair. I just wondered if any had made it that far.
- Philip in China - Thursday, 06/03/10 19:18:06 EDT

them vicunas look like good eatin'... bet they're easy to catch too...
- Tyler Murch - Thursday, 06/03/10 22:13:27 EDT

Goin' down South: My younger sister returned from some mission work in Guatemala last month working with the indigenous people there.
What a beautiful people they are (the Mayans)
Too bad their simple life comes from more from poverty rather than choice.

Phillip, is your dog an Australian Blue Healer?
I seem to have more than my two dogs worth of hair at the moment...
- merl - Thursday, 06/03/10 22:48:11 EDT

Man oh man since our worldly goods have been packed the dust bunnies and dog hair have taken over and started to bite me in the toes. I think the dust bunnies have mated with the dog hair and now we have dog bunnies on steriods! dog bunnie attacked my boy and took him the days, hours, minutes
Camoman - Friday, 06/04/10 00:05:37 EDT

Books online: Shoot I got so involved with the dog bunnies I forgot to ask if any of you have ever heard of my brother turned me on to this site. They have alot of how to books and they are very cheap. He has ordered a few from them and says they are very quick to deliver and a great source for anything metal.
Camoman - Friday, 06/04/10 00:13:12 EDT

Yes Camoman, I have. It's one of my favorites.

Thomas, it looks like you are at 23deg04'28.63" South lat. by 67deg58'53.52 West long. (approximately) if you're at the hardware site.
What a desolite place. Looks like nothing but vocanic wasteland from horizon to horizon.
At least in Santa Fe you have vegitation.
- merl - Friday, 06/04/10 00:35:03 EDT

I ordered the blacksmithing set from them. Only $34.00 and should be there when I get home. I think there were 4 books in the set. I hope there are alot of pics.
Camoman - Friday, 06/04/10 00:43:28 EDT

Merl: Not a big error, but our esteemed Thomas is in the Lemitar area of New Mexico, near Socorro. As for Santa Fe, my home, I had one student ask for the names of all our "bushes." "Hey, those are trees, Man; piñones (pines) and junipers." We're adjacent to some 10,000 foot mountains, where you get a different life zone and some large Ponderosas, Engelmann Spruce, and a few Oaks, scrub and larger.

Lots of New Mexico is desert. It normally takes about 40 acres to support one cow on a ranch. That's why the ranches are so BIG. We do have mountains. We tease the Texans. We tell them that New Mexico is bigger than Texas; you just need a rolling pin to flatten it.
frank Turley - Friday, 06/04/10 10:08:35 EDT

No "hair of the dog" Drinking is *STRICTLY* forbidden on a construction site at this altitude. The High site is just 45 km or so from the low site and yes it looks like mars---lots of lovely red and brown with rocks...

Catching native wildlife: easy? Try this: hold your breath for 10 minutes and then still holding your breath try to catch a dog that doesn't want to be caught; let us know how that works for you!

I had a rough night after the high site visit even though I was just at 9000'.

Thomas P - Friday, 06/04/10 10:11:29 EDT

I tried but the dog got away... i think it was lack of self motivation more than anything...
- Tyler Murch - Friday, 06/04/10 11:23:11 EDT

Frank: My apologies Frank, I knew you were both in New Mexico.
- merl - Friday, 06/04/10 23:16:01 EDT

But Thomas has been on assignment to the high Andes in Chile. . Therefore the confusion.
- guru - Saturday, 06/05/10 05:53:32 EDT

Generally Frank is about 2500' higher than I am; nice to be Above the city different for a change.

Thomas---home in 10 days
Thomas P - Saturday, 06/05/10 10:35:11 EDT

On the Construction of Locks and Keys by John Chubb: Dear friends,
I'm locksmith from Prague ( Czech Republic) and I'm 63 years old. Already year study locksmithery, wrote I'm instructional book Locksmithing and teach locksmiths from Czech and Moravia this enclosure. Belong to also to experts in field of locksmithery in Czech republic. Internet me provides great deal of information and I'm very happy, that the I'm got on your www pages and with big satisfaction I'm draw down book. (I'm yearn very much about this book) : "On the Construction of Locks and Keys by John Chubb". I have to you very thank, that the this book may I read through. Once more thank you have the honour Paul Gec
- Paul GEC - Sunday, 06/06/10 12:45:38 EDT

I picked up the latest knife magazine BLADE and they did an article on Harlan "Sid" Suedmeier of the Little Giant Co. Talked about the repair part of his shop and some of his knives, didnt know he was a bladesmith and made his own damascus. Neat article
Greg S - Monday, 06/07/10 20:53:26 EDT

ABANA 2010 Conference:
Anyone go? We would like to hear how it was, post photos. I was way-laid and could not go even though it was fairly close. . .
- guru - Monday, 06/07/10 22:36:35 EDT

Well it looks like I will be missing some good shows and instruction this summer. With the move and all I hope I can attend some classes in the fall at the local college in NY. Does anybody have any good contacts in the West Point NY area?
Camoman - Tuesday, 06/08/10 03:27:08 EDT

ABANA: I was at the 2010 conference. Weather was hot, they had very good demonstrators, things seemed well organized, I heard unofficial attendance figures of 800 to 900 people. The agricenter is huge and easily had space for many more. I haven't been to an ABANA conference since Richmond so I don't have a lot to judge it against
- Ken - Tuesday, 06/08/10 17:57:07 EDT

Progress: Well I got the PH lifted out of the little depression it was resting in. Then got it as far as the door. The problems there are:
The obvious way to pick up the hammer is from the side using the forklift. This isn't feasible to get the machine out as the gate is tooo narrow. It has to go out lengthways.
The forklift is just too tall to go through the gate.

So I think I shall try to pick her up lengthways using the pallet truck. Anyway it will get done somehow.

Maybe I am getting too bad tempered in my old age. On another site I saw a guy wanting to know how he could possibly lift a 350 pound anvil onto an anvil stand. I posted a fairly terse reply suggesting he lifts it or if he can't he and a couple of pals do so. Heck I lift my 280 on and off the stump she goes on and I am very small.
- philip in china - Wednesday, 06/09/10 15:54:51 EDT

I had friends that used to carry a 350 pound anvil in the back of a Volkwagon beatle when they did demos. . . Manhandled it into the back seat!

I used to pick up my 200 pound anvil but not off the floor. However, since I have added 300 pounds to ME I avoid lifting anvils as I am always carrying one. . . . Come alongs. . . block and tackle. . . last time I needed one in the back of the van I used a 2x10" piece of lumber as a ramp. .

Phillip, lay track (flat steel bar of boards) if the ground is soft or uneven and use pipe rollers (3/4" pipe, ~1" diameter) to skid that hammer out.
- guru - Wednesday, 06/09/10 18:11:45 EDT

Anvil Moving: I like large labor pools. Throwing sufficient manpower at a problem, as long as it's done safely, is a time honored method from Stonehenge to pyramids to great walls. ;-)

Borrowing some heavy ash oars from the old ship stock and nylon strapping from the trailer tie-downs can be quite useful. Older high school and college boys are an invaluable resource, too. When I was moving my forge one young man just walked up, grabbed the 100 kilo anvil and stand, and put it on the truck.
Bruce Blackistone (Atli) - Wednesday, 06/09/10 20:03:47 EDT

blacksmith shop for sale: I have a 45 ft x 70 ft building full of tools. Power hammers, gas forges, grinders, anvils, milling machines, lathes, tonges, shelves, vises, induction heater, wheelabrator, needs to go so I can rent the building.
- George Wade - Wednesday, 06/09/10 21:03:11 EDT

BLACKSMITH SHOP FOR SALE: I have a 45ft x 70ft building full of tools. Power hammers, lathes, milling machines, anvils, bench grinders, wheelabrator, induction heater, gas forges, tonges, vises, everything must go to make room for new tenant.
George Wade - Wednesday, 06/09/10 21:08:36 EDT

BLACKSMITH SHOP FOR SALE: CONTACT INFO, George Wade 706-283-4864 or email Thanks
George Wade - Wednesday, 06/09/10 21:11:32 EDT

George, where is this shop located?
- Nippulini - Thursday, 06/10/10 07:52:01 EDT

BLACKSMITH SHOP FOR SALE: Elberton Georgia 30635
George Wade - Thursday, 06/10/10 08:06:00 EDT

refacing anvil: I have an old 245# anvil that came out of a marble quarry maintenance shop. The latter maintence men decided that it would be a good surface to cut metal with a torch, and really gouged the snot out of the face. Was advised to grind the gouges clean and weld it up with 7018 stick. I asked several folks at work if they would do this and of course since half of them didn't even know what an anvil was they had all sorts of advice and none of them would take a 7018 stinger to the anvil. Finally one fellow said he would so I left him with the anvil. Couple days later I returned to find him as he was finishing up but welding it with flux core wire. I know that stuff is tuff, but do you reckon it'll be as hard as 7018? And if not then should I run a bead of 7018 over the entire face?
- Pablo - Thursday, 06/10/10 16:30:14 EDT


I think a lot of flux core wire is 70,000 PSI, and probably as hard as 7018. But 7018 isn't very hard. A welded-up anvil is likely to have soft spots, both from the filler material and from the welding heat tempering or annealing the surrounding metal. There's not much to do now besides try it and see if you can live with you've got.
Mike BR - Thursday, 06/10/10 19:55:07 EDT

Anvil faces are hardenable carbon steel with carbon varying from 45 to 60 points that is hardened by heating and quenching. Few if any were tempered due to the residual heat in the anvil doing the job while trying to quench the anvil. Hardness would vary from 50 to 58 HRc. Weld repairs are difficult and should only be the very last resort. However, they are better than machining large amounts of the anvil because this removes the necessary thickness of the steel face (on old wrought bodied anvils).

If you look at the methods used to repair tool steel stamping dies they are the same as what is correct for an anvil. Preheat, special rods and often post weld heat treatment. Rods are usually special high manganese rods designed for alloy tool steels. Occasionally folks use hard facing rods but often these are too hard and brittle. Welding heats the steel base metal and reduces its hardness resulting in soft spots. When hard rods are used you then get a hard weld spot surrounded by softer steel.

Complete resurfacing with hard facing rod is very labor intensive as well the rods, electricity and grinding abrasives being expensive. The end result is that you MAY have saved an anvil but at a cost greater than a good used anvil and with results less than perfectly satisfactory.

These problems are why I always advise welding LAST.

But once the deed is done all you can do is use it as is. If you keep the work hot and work on well rounded edges it may be a good tool with a long life. But if you expect sharp welded up edges to work and hammer cold steel the welds will not hold up.
- guru - Thursday, 06/10/10 20:37:15 EDT

Camp Fenby DRAFT Activities 7/9 – 7/11: Camp Fenby is our laid-back medieval arts and crafts weekend in which we teach, learn and create.

Here are some of the activities that we're looking at on Friday through Sunday, July 9th through 11th, at Oakley Forge in St. Mary's County, Maryland. (And folks can camp out Thursday night, too!) Camp Fenby is an official Longship Company, Ltd. and Markland event.

Bone, antler, horn work:

Basic bone work

Antler whistles (especially good for LSCo ship's officers)


Wood turning basics and safety

Medieval chest construction (continued from previous sessions)

Mast step for ship (continued from previous sessions)

Fibre Arts:




Small knife blades

40 pt. steel test

Case hardening tests (continued from previous session)

Basic arc welding and safety

Brass casting (continued from previous session)

Leather and Sheet Brass

Sheath work for Hugh's new seax knife

Plus- Open forge, good advice, crab feast, songs of the crew, good company and good friends. Hiking, fishing, boating, barn repair, and other adventures are also possible for those with enthusiasm.
Camp Fenby YahooGroups Bulletin Board
Bruce Blackistone (Atli) - Friday, 06/11/10 08:17:52 EDT

BLACKSMITH SHOP FOR SALE: CONTACT INFO, George Wade 706-283-4864 or email
George Wade - Friday, 06/11/10 08:24:33 EDT

Blacksmith Shop; George Wade: Were I closer (and not spending all of meager funds on a small separate shop for my woodworking tools) I would certainly be interested. I'm sure our more southern bretheren will be taking note.

Good luck.
Bruce Blackistone (Atli) - Friday, 06/11/10 13:18:23 EDT

I received the following question, does anyone know the answer: "Can a propane forge workd on industrial propylene gas?"
- Ken Scharabok - Monday, 06/14/10 02:15:21 EDT

Propylene Gas:
Ken, The burning temperature of propylene is closer to acetylene than to propane (5342 F vs. 4700 for propane, and 5700 for acetylene - pure O2, neutral flames). There would be a much greater likelihood of burning steel and the forge may run hotter than the ratings of the refractories.

Due to its high burning temperature it is recommended for flame cutting and as a (relatively) safe alternative to acetylene for heating, brazing and spray metallizing.

- guru - Monday, 06/14/10 08:26:36 EDT

Propylene: Propylene is similar to MAPP gas. What is presently sold in small cylinders that used to contain MAPP is now propylene.

I believe it is a bit more costly than propane, and might require some burner tuning, but should work.

KEN: How are You doing????
- Dave Boyer - Monday, 06/14/10 21:53:56 EDT

I use MAPP only in my micro forge. I use TZ-8000 torches as standard ones don't really use that gas as effeciently.
- Nippulini - Monday, 06/14/10 22:28:51 EDT

Dave: I'm doing much better. My replaced knee feels fine although I don't particularly like the popping in it when I walk. Went to a different cartiologist who said my heart wasn't beating properly and he shocked it back to normal. Feeling much better since then. As the saying goes, it is hell to grow old but it beats the alternative.
Ken Scharabok - Saturday, 06/19/10 03:50:18 EDT

two burner gas forge w/blower: I checked out the plans on anvilfire for a one burner gas forge with a blower. I couldn't find any plans for a simple two burner gas forge with one blower. Can you direct me to some plans for the above?
David - Monday, 06/21/10 01:08:30 EDT

David, You don't need to poet in two places. Your question was answered on the guru's den.
- guru - Monday, 06/21/10 07:07:50 EDT

"post" not poet. . . :(
- guru - Monday, 06/21/10 18:01:00 EDT

But Jock, you said it so poetically...
- Nippulini - Monday, 06/21/10 19:25:26 EDT

Ross Meehan Anvil:
I had a fellow shop by my shop with an anvil he just bought and tried to sell me. This anvil had alot of damage to the face but the cast letters were still in good shape, it was cast by the Ross Meehan Foundry
in Chattanooga TN. The anvil is no good for forging
but may have some interest to someone in that area where it was cast.If anyone is interested contact me and I will give you his contact info.
Greg S - Thursday, 06/24/10 08:17:28 EDT

Hammerin For Justice: With the latest insult to our military Obama should be removed from power and put in some homeland forged irons. To bad the General did not bring the troops home from Afghanistan and remove Obama from power. Has every American that red, white and blue runs through their veins had enough yet?? Guess, I needed to finally say something because he is out of control and insulting our military and all of us.
- Burnt Forge - Thursday, 06/24/10 11:33:25 EDT

Nutritian and Health, The things I wish my children would listen to me about: My recent health crisis has had me studying nutrition in order to save my life. It is working, I am losing weight, have more energy, getting exercise and have a new outlook for my future. But I have also learned things about what they call the "Standard American Diet" or SAD and have tried to get my daughter and daughter-in-law to listen as they BOTH have young husbands with cancer. But they are not the only ones that will not listen. Most of the world does not want to learn the truth.

The things I have learned from some very authoritative folks with good science and research to back them up and that I want my children and grandchildren to understand:

1) Meat and dairy products is not necessary in the human diet nor is it good for humans. Besides being very high calorie for the amount of actual nutrition it supports cancer and may be the largest single largest cause of cancer in modern society.

2) Vegetable protein is completely sufficient to supply human needs as well as calcium, other minerals and vitamins and other things that animal sources do not supply. The things we were taught about animal sources being the only sources of sufficient protein and milk being a needed source of calcium was WRONG and now that the truth is known continuing to make these statements are lies. You will continue to hear these lies for decades due to the large government supported U.S. beef and dairy industries.

3) Most "diseases of old age" are not natural nor inevitable. High blood pressure is largely the result of salt in our diets and the "normal" at age 80 should be, and CAN be no different than at age 8. Heart disease is mostly the result of a combination of high blood pressure and high "bad LDL" cholesterol from meat and processed oils. Type two (acquired) diabetes is caused by obesity and diet. There is also significant reason to believe that dementia is related to low levels of good cholesterol from Omega 3 fats in the diet.

4) All the "diseases of old age" listed above that people think are inevitable and incurable ARE curable by proper nutrition and proper nutrition alone. Modern medicine does not cure these things it only masks the problems or extends life while letting the problems become worse. Until every doctor is reeducated in nutrition and the big pharmaceutical companies lose their grip on our health system this will not change. YES, you CAN be cured of diabetes, YES, you can be CURED of heart disease.

5) The vast majority of people roll their eyes and think (if they do not say it outright). "Oh, another crackpot hippie vegetarian", and close their mind to what is rapidly being learned is the truth about our SAD diet. . .

6) Vegetarianism as most of us know it is not a proper healthy diet. The vegans are closer but they still missed the mark. The things that must be removed from most diets are ALL animal protein (meat, milk, cheese, eggs. .) with the exception of some fish, then sugar, salt and processed grains such as wheat and rice. So a vegan diet heavy on pasta or a vegetation diet with dairy and eggs may not be as healthy as they think. Raw food is also not the answer.

I had thought about going vegetarian for a long time but I would have done it WRONG if I had not been directed to Dr. Joel Fuhrman ( ) by a good friend.

Fuhrman's basic principal is very simple and represented by a formula.

H = N/C, Health equals Nutrients divided by Calories

This says that the more nutrients per calorie the healthier the food. Dark green vegetables top the list followed by brightly colored vegetables, beans, fruit and nuts. He has a carefully designed numerical rating system with a scale of 0 to 1000 with sugar and soft drinks at 0 and kale and some other leafy vegetables at 1000.

There is enough information on his web site to start you in the right direction (including his food pyramid and a short list of food ratings) but if you want the details or have an open mind and would like to hear some serious truths about nutrition and how they have been discovered then read his book "Eat to Live". If you are convinced then buy his two book set "Eat for Health" which has many more details. He also has a book on child nutrition and one on osteoporosis (another disease resulting from SAD) that CAN be prevented.

This information is far beyond what the vegetarians have been preaching and the whole foods people have been teaching. It IS NOT moral vegetarianism. It is the culmination of decades of global nutritional research. I believe it is the truth and hope that my children will eventually take the message to heart.
- guru - Thursday, 06/24/10 11:57:54 EDT

While I am loathe to feed the trolls, and advise others not to, I can not pass.
The constitution calls for the leadership of our military to be in the hands of our CIVILIAN, ELECTED government. Period.
To advocate the military to overthrow the elected government is basically treason. The simple fact is that any one who pins on the star of rank is at least half politician. When a General bad mouths his CIC, he deserves to be canned, pubicly. No military person can obey an illegal order, but all military must obey every legal order.
I and every single military person current or former has sworn an oath to "...protect the constitution from all enemys foriegn or domestic..." I, and to my knowledge no other retired, or former vet has ever been relieved from that oath.
I will fight to remove an elected official, through the legal processes if they displease me. If they violate the constitution, they deserve to be impeached. If the elected president wants to be any fath or creed, or choose to follow none, that is his right just as it is mine. If he has a general that bad mouths him in the press, that general needs to be a civilian. Period. Then bad mouth to his hearts content as it is then his constitutional right.
And one I would defend.
Rant over.
ptree - Thursday, 06/24/10 13:55:11 EDT

Cancer and Nutrition: My two daughters with young husbands who both have cancer could really learn something from the current nutritional research. Eating meat (or dairy) makes us grow faster. Its why our children are maturing sooner and each generation seems to be larger than their parents. It is also why farmers feed MEAT to animals that are vegetarian by nature. It makes them grow larger and faster. But we all know the horrible results of feeding beef waste products to cows. . Mad Cow Disease. An incurable affliction worse than AIDS.

Research has shown that when animals are feed animal protein (milk protein in fact) their cancers grew but as soon as they were taken off animal protein and it was replaced with vegetable protein the cancer STOPPED growing. When they were fed animal protein again the cancer started growing again. . . While this hasn't yet been proven in humans the doctor that was doing the research, who was an avid hunter and ate a "normal" U.S. diet became a vegetarian immediately upon seeing these results.

So, while animal proteins have not been proven to cause cancer it is definitely a contributor factor to its growth. They are also low on the H=N/C scale and thus contribute to other problems.

Foods with anti-oxidants have been shown to be cancer preventatives and some berries with high levels of anti-oxidants actual cancer fighting agents. It does not hurt to add these to your diet and MAY help a great deal. We now have Goji berries in our nut and berry mix to serve this purpose. But all colorful vegetables and fruits have significant antioxidants (its IN the coloring).

There are new natural substances with antioxidants such a phytoplanktons that only have anecdotal evidence of killing cancers but the evidence is there and research is being done. These are a food stuff that can be eaten or taken as a natural supplement. As a natural substance there is no money in it for the big pharmaceutical companies to invest in research and therefore no money from the government either. . .

SO, if your genetics say you have a predisposition to cancer, you are fighting cancer OR want to reduce your risks of cancer there is a LOT that can be done nutritionally. Changing your diet and even adding some of the more exotic fruits and berries is much more cost effective than the current methods of fighting cancer and if it works does a LOT less harm.

But the best thing is NOT to get cancer. However, if you do, it may be possible to slow its growth and avoid surgery, chemo therapy and radiation. . . all of which have severe side effects and often are only a temporary reprieve. Would you become a vegan to avoid the current cancer treatments? Its something to think about.

At nearly age 60 and having led the life I've lead there is a good possibility I (or any of us at this age) have the start of some sort of cancer. If I can slow or stop its growth so that it doesn't kill me before I die of other causes I think it is worth a simple change in what I eat. .

As the Dinotopians said, "Eat to live, don't live to eat".
- guru - Thursday, 06/24/10 14:17:50 EDT

I am upset more about the things that effect me personally. I do not make enough money to do more than just barely keep up with the bills and I do not have health insurance or any other insurance that I am not forced to have such as automobile liability insurance. No fire, flood, no life no financial calamity. . .

But now I am being told if I do not buy health insurance that is way beyond my means I will be fined. WELL. . they might as well haul me off to jail now. Me and several million other Americans!

If they want to fix the health crisis in the U.S. make everyone be vegetarians! Talk about a revolution! OR how about putting an "unhealthy" food tax on all animal food products, sugared sodas and most fast food! Raise billons and make the populace more healthy at the same time. Raise the cost of a steak to $100 and a hamburger and fries to $20. . .

Why not? They do it with cigarettes which kill a LOT less people than obesity and heart disease.

Other health taxes. Tax high fructose corn syrup. It is only used because it is pennies a pound cheaper than real sugar. OR even simpler. . take the embargo off sugar from Cuba. Either way that unnatural stuff would disappear in short order. However, in the end, sugar is one of those things that needs to be OUT! So tax both but tax the fake stuff more. .

Give people a tax credit for living healthy! Check blood pressure and cholesterol twice a year and reward people for having good levels. . . NOT the so called "normals" which are actually the average of everyone with a BAD life style but for truthfully healthy levels.

I won't get into Global politics.
- guru - Thursday, 06/24/10 15:09:21 EDT

I respect your opinions,thoughts and validity of statements.
To call me a troll however is disrespectful and small minded. I am a trained Blacksmith having performed so as a profession before you knew what the word meant.
- Burnt Forge - Thursday, 06/24/10 15:44:38 EDT

Johnson Forge Mod122: Very nice forge on pallet ready to ship.I live in Bradenton,FL
Have photos to email
Price $1200
- Rex Barker - Thursday, 06/24/10 16:20:09 EDT

In Philly our budget is BAD. Huge debt as I am sure most American cities are. Mayor Nutter (real name) proposed and really tried to sell HARD a soda and soft drink tax. His logic was flawed though. He says that the extra revenue from the tax (which would have put a lot of people out of work) would help the economy. Then he goes on to say that the tax would also make people want to choose water instead of sugary drinks, therefore touting it as a healthy tax. Wait a minute.... if everyone chose water wouldn't there be less revenue from the taxed soda? Yep.... and he wondered why it was getting shot down every time he proposed it. On a side note, if you are not drinking at least 6 to 8 glasses of water a day your body is in a dehydrated state. The dehydration allows more of that crap to get in your body.
- Nippulini - Thursday, 06/24/10 16:59:14 EDT

Rex's number is 1-941-704-1958
- guru - Thursday, 06/24/10 16:59:25 EDT

Nutrition: Nothing beats the passion of a new convert, eh?

I am happy when people eat healthier. I raise a wide variety of organic vegetables, fruits, spices, and eat the vast majority of my food from growers I know within a ten mile radius.

But I dont believe in "one size fits all" nutrition, and have seen plenty of people live long and healthy lives eating all kinds of things, "good" and "bad".

My grandmother died a few years ago, almost 102 years old. I visted her when she turned 100 - she was still sneaking cigarettes out by the oxygen tank, and subsisting, as she had for a century, on hot dogs, oreos, mountain dew, and frozen entree's.
If sugar was illegal, and vegetarianism mandated by law, you really think she would have lived to 150?

Good food is good for you. But not everybody dies from drinking milk or eating chicken.

We just got a soda tax here. Cant say it bothers me much.
- ries - Thursday, 06/24/10 17:05:32 EDT

Ries --

Me thinks you're exaggerating a little. Oreos weren't introduced until 1912 (grin).
Mike BR - Thursday, 06/24/10 18:41:16 EDT

I Agree, One size doen't fit all: Genetics has a lot do with it. But so did the life style of your youth. I'll bet your grandmother worked hard most of her life. Mine that lived to be 94 ate a fairly high fat high salt diet "country cooking" diet. But she worked hard most of her life and ate mostly her own cooking and produce grown in a back yard garden. But she did not drink alcohol, sodas or coffee, just tea. She outlived three husbands.

However, my grandfather Dempsey who also worked hard all his life and was not over weight died of a heart attack at age 61. That would only be two more years for me. . . At the rate I was going I might not have made it that far.

Regardless, the statistics for the U.S. says we are almost all overweight and there is an epidemic of cancer, heart disease, diabetes and osteoporosis. The experts say it is going to get much worth.

The real problem is that when folks get into as bad of condition as I was a short 7 weeks ago the normal treatment is a bunch of drugs and a suggestion to change diet and lifestyle. But change my diet how? Few doctors know what to tell patients about diet much less that severe conditions like heart disease and diabetes CAN actually be cured by what you eat, without the expense of the drugs.

I've tried changing my eating habits in the past. Its tough. The big problem with many diets is that they either require careful calorie counting or some type of very careful portion control. A proper high nutrition diet is easy in comparison and better for you. Large salads (all you can eat), beans, fruit, some nuts. . . Eat the right vegetables and you get a lot more nutrition per calorie and a balanced diet with plenty of protein, vitamins and minerals. Unless you overdo on nuts and sugary fruit you cannot overeat. Its logical, fairly easy and it works.

150? I doubt I've got a chance at that. But to still be active and healthy at 85 or 90 would be nice.

- guru - Thursday, 06/24/10 19:34:33 EDT

Ries, My Dad's Mother lived to 100 and 6 months. She at hot dogs for most meals from her 70's on. Drank coffee in huge quantity. She drank and ate dairy. And she ate Bufferin like candy:) She salted her food white then darkened it back up some with pepper.
Her blood pressure was always great.She died of a rare luekemia from exposure to laquer thinner in the 30's. My Dad died of the same exact thing 3 months later. He worked in the same depression era cottage industry in their basement.

I would lean to moderation in what you eat. Not to much of anything. But then I have practised a southern seafood diet since birth, that is, I see food I like and eat it.
ptree - Thursday, 06/24/10 19:49:41 EDT

What they don't tell you:
Beside the fact that type two diabetes is not necessarily a lifetime condition that cannot be cured here are some of the things doctors do not tell you.

Blood pressure medicine only masks the symptoms of underlying problems and does not increase your life span.

Blood pressure and cholesterol work hand in hand to cause or prevent most vascular disease. As blood pressure increases small holes are punctured in blood vessels. Cholesterol patches the holes. Good cholesterol makes a strong smooth patch and bad makes a weak rough artery clogging patch. At the weak rough point more breaks occur and patches build up. . .

So if you have very low or a true "normal" blood pressure then no matter what you eat you have much lower chance of vascular disease. But if you have high blood pressure you need to have very very low bad cholesterol to avoid vascular disease. Keep both under control and you have a low probability of vascular disease. With both under tight control you can reverse much damage done from previous years of a bad diet.

It makes SO much more sense when you understand the basic mechanics.

Years ago I gave up regular soft drinks cold turkey. I had a 4 liter a day habit. . This time I have also given up diet drinks, which may be just as bad for you. I only miss them once in a while. But boy I could get into a nice thick crust cheese pizza. . . (with vegetarian toppings or other as long as there was lots of bread and cheese). Otherwise I don't miss meat of any kind.
- guru - Thursday, 06/24/10 20:05:06 EDT

insurance: Yes the new insurance laws will be quite interesting.
Like you Guru, my family does not have the health insurance we should have. The two kids are on state assisted health insurance but, we make just enough that my wife and I don't qualify, yet we can't afford the insurance from my employer.
I just got a memo at work outlining the new upcoming health insurance changes. The one that scares me the most, after the fines for not having insurance, is that by next year employers must start reporting the VALUE of your insurance package on your W-2!!!
Those who have insurance through the company pay their premium from pre-tax income.
Can you see the government getting ready to tax your insurance (you know, the insurance that THEY REQUIRE US TO HAVE BY THE LAWS THEY HAVE PASSED)
I agree with ptree about following the LAWFULL orders of the president but, if Uncle Sugar wants to force me to get insurance and then make me pay for it he can at least come right out and say it.
Don't piss on my head when you think I'm sleeping and tell me it's just raining...
(rant mode button broken...)
- merl - Thursday, 06/24/10 21:49:52 EDT

The move: Well I got everything to the new place. The truck driver thought there was over 4 tons. Having seen how his springs went down I think he was probably correct. It is all now in storage awaiting the construction of the new shop.

I haven't been active on the internet as I have had only limited access to computers.
- Philip in China - Thursday, 06/24/10 23:19:35 EDT

Healthy Guru: Guru, I am so happy you are making healthy lifestyle changes with healthy eating and making an effort to help educate others. You know I hold you in very high regard and have been concerned about your well being. You have encouraged me to make better choices myself and for this I am greatful. To a fulfilling future and happy forging!!
- Burnt Forge - Thursday, 06/24/10 23:20:05 EDT

Health Insurance: While in principal, I don't like ANY law that tells Me I HAVE to do something...

But here is the problem: Most of the uninsured will still go to the hospital when they have a health problem. They recieve care and then welch on the bill.

The law is that they can not deny service due to the lack of ability to pay.

How much work can You afford to do in Your shop or business for which the customers don't pay the bill?

Pony up and buy the damned insurance, or stay home and die when You get sick. How is that for a choice?

I have been buying My own health insurance out of My own pocket since 1991. I never had a claim on it 'till 2004. I didn't like spending that money on insurance, when there were plenty of other things I might have spent it on. Since '04 they have paid out about 3 million for My care. My premiums are now about 10K/year plus 3K/year deductable & out of pocket. I am not one bit happy about the cost, but I need the care.
- Dave Boyer - Thursday, 06/24/10 23:21:57 EDT

Cancer, Geneology & Diet: I have colon cancer. This comes from polyps that develope over time. Dr. Gowen, who diagnosed My problem was one of the first to recognize that this is a heridetary problem, from which He is affected too. I dont remember which genes & chromasones are responsible, but He and others have verified their involvment in pollyps and the resulting cancers.

In My family, I was the first & youngest to get colon cancer. An older cousin was diagnosed the following year, another cousinhad polyps removed when He went in for hemroid surgery, and yet another cousin had to have a colon re-section, but Hers was not yet cancerous.

This is all on the same side of the family, My Mothers. While Her Father lived to 84, an Uncle & Grandfather to 100+, Her mother's side did not live particularly long, and that is where the cancer comes from.

I agree that a generally healthy diet is far superior overall to a grosly unhealthy one.

I asked My oncologist, whose opinion I value over others as He does do His homework, if any particular diet or eating habits would have any effect on My outcome & life expectancy regarding My cancer. He suggested that I continue to eat a healthy diet of normal foods, as all the studies regarding diet and cancer were in the end, inconclusive.

On My Fathers side, both grandparents lived pretty long, Grandpop to 83 and Grandmom into Her 90's. My Dad and His Sister both died at age 76 from the same problem, deteriation of the artery leading to the heart. Neither one was overweight, had colesterol or severe blood pressure problems. Grandpop had an anurism at age 80. My cousin, Dad's Sisters Son, died at age 42 after working out at the gym. He was healthy, not overweight, didn't smoke do dope or any of the other popular vices.

One of My friends was told by His Dr. "Don't smoke, Wear Your seatbelt, and the rest is in the genes"

Another friend has 3 strikes against Him by the above count, but He isn't out yet.
- Dave Boyer - Friday, 06/25/10 00:10:40 EDT

Dave, What you do not know is if your "normal" diet for your lifetime had been vegan if that had made a difference. The fact that you are the youngest in your family to be diagnosed may indicate that a modern diet could be responsible for the early onset. But it could also be because they are getting much better at diagnosing these things.

The current nutritional and diet information used by Dr. Fuhrman and others is very new and based on conclusive global studies as well as laboratory (animal) testing which is less conclusive than the statistical studies but it points in the same directions. The vast majority of physicians are not current on this information.

The goal for future generations is to avoid cancer in the first place. Once you have it treatment is very difficult and expensive. But I don't have to tell you that. But I am also in the position that if I had your problems I would not have the choice of getting good treatment if any.

If there was a chance that a proper diet would put off the inevitable for a few decades or way into their elder years for your children or grandchildren wouldn't you want them to learn to live that way? Being brought up vegetarian is much easier than converting. Being taught WHY it is better (rather than an ambiguous moral stand point) would also make it easier to stay on the path.
- guru - Friday, 06/25/10 07:16:53 EDT

40% :
Here is an interesting fact. I recently needed medical attention for an infection and paid cash. Both the doctor's office and the laboratory gave me a 40% discount for paying cash (which I had to put on a credit card).

40%! Nearly HALF! This is because of the huge paperwork burden of filing insurance claims that occupy MOST of the people scurrying around in those offices.

If we could take that 40% away from all medical costs or JUST the government plans such as Medicaid imagine how far ahead we would be in the fight against rising costs. . . I do not know HOW it could be done but it is a significant cost.

Another actual case. When Paw-Paw died he had no insurance, both he and Sheri were just biding their time to be eligible for Medicare and had been paying cash for their care up to that point. The cost of dying in intensive care was $15,000 per day for 4 days. If the room cost $1,000/day and EVERY person that had any contact with his case from the orderlies to the lab techs were paid $1,000/day it would not total half this much. Where did all the money go? Was that a 40% discounted price? Or was the amount they would charge an insurance company 40% more? ($25,000/day).

In the end, Sheri had to claim poverty and the hospital wrote off the entire cost as a loss. However, if the bill had been HALF what it was she probably would have found some way to pay it back. It might have taken her to age 90 to do so but she would have tried. . .

So that significant sum gets written off which means it actually gets passed on to other folks, probably with insurance and costs go up even more.
- guru - Friday, 06/25/10 07:37:12 EDT

Camp Fenby, July 9-11: Smithing, Crafting, Crabs and Beer at our laid-back medieval arts and crafts campout. A little later in July then usual (scedule conflicts and awaiting the delivery of the woodshop), but we have lots of fans, and shade and folks tend to bring tall iced drinks. Sponsored by the Longship Company and the Markland Medieval Mercenary Militia.

Latest and best information is usually posted at:

This year we're planning small Viking age knives, bone and antler work, and lots of follow-up projects from previous sessions.
Camp Fenby YahooGroups Site
Bruce Blackistone (Atli) - Friday, 06/25/10 08:34:06 EDT

There is no way to make a profit from preventing cancer or circ. disease via. diet! Do not suppose that you will EVER see your methodology endorsed by the US government; they are controlled by special interests that need to have their products consumed. And why would the medico-pharma industry want to cure something (once) that they can otherwise make you buy treatment for (forever)? They spend more researching erectile dysfunction!

Our economy will collapse, banks will fail, etc. Your words are almost as seditious as "Burnt Forge"'s.

(last bit sarcasm, since you can’t see it in my face)
- Dave Leppo - Friday, 06/25/10 10:51:43 EDT

Stacked Deck:
Everything from the broken government food pyramid taught to children to industry lobbyists and the power of advertising from the giants (Pepsi, Coke, McDonalds et al - See the Hillshire Farms ads with kids cheering "Go Meat".) is against the reform of dietary education.

But in our new electronic society we have people power and the Internet. Truth gets out and snowballs. There have been SOME reform is public school lunch programs, but far too few.

Dr. Fuhrman was asked to write an article for the Journal of the American Diabetes Foundation due to his success with curing diabetes. However, when the editor reviewed the article he realized it said "cure" and asked Fuhrman to tone down the article and say the patients "improved". Apparently Ely Lilly the largest producer of insulin is the primary advertiser of the Journal. The article did not run.

Dr. Fuhrman reduces most diabetics medication by half to start and in a few weeks reduces it further until most is stopped entirely. These are often people that have been sent to Fuhrman as their last hope. The standard treatment just drags out the inevitable, Dr. Fuhrman offers cures.

This is not another fad diet, crank idea or quack doctor selling a plan. This is the future reality of dietary and medical knowledge.

And yes, parts of the economy COULD collapse, to the better of the whole.
- guru - Friday, 06/25/10 12:10:07 EDT

Jock, you will remember my friend Larry Harley, who used to have hammer-ins in Bristol, TN until his health and economic conditions made it impossible. The big issue was hepatitis C. He underwent the 9 months of chemo needed to combat that particular disease, and when he came off the meds he was diagnosed with type II diabetes. Thanks to diet, he no longer has any sign of the diabetes, and thanks to the chemo he has zero hepatitis showing up in his bloodwork. And he's lost about a hundred pounds, which doesn't hurt anything.

So yes, it all makes a difference.

Now if the economy would improve enough to support full-time knifemakers in the manner to which they should be accustomed, all would be perfect!
Alan-L - Friday, 06/25/10 13:07:28 EDT

Again, I am all in favor of a healthy diet, although I never drank 4 liters of soda, much less 1 liter, a day, so I figure I got a little wiggle room for eating my neighbor's organic beef now and again.

Anyway- my grandmother got a nursing degree in her early 20's, married a doctor after a couple of years (her reason for going into nursing) and then, quit, and did as little as possible for the next 80 years or so.
Hard work? It is to laugh. She smoked, drank cans of beer, and ate crummy food as it was invented. No, she probably didnt start hitting the oreos and mountain dew til the 60's, but she was, according to my mom, a trendsetter in using frozen food, mixes, and other convenience foods as early as the 40's.

The bottom line is- she was blessed with incredible genetics. She was never fat, her hair didnt even turn gray til well into her 80's. She was able to ignore most every rule of common sense, and still outlive most all of us.

Meanwhile, I know other people who exercise, eat well, and still drop dead of cancer at an early age.

When your number is up, its up.

I think if Dr. Furhrmans diet is working for you, thats great.
But there isnt much new there, or any "future"- instead, he sells a lot of products under his brand, many of which are of dubious scientific value, according to studies.
Anti-oxidants, for example, have pretty much been proven to be unmeasurable in their effect.

I will just keep eating the freshest, most chemical free, most local and organic food I can. Works for me.
- ries - Friday, 06/25/10 13:22:31 EDT

Larry Harley and more:
I'm glad Larry is doing well. But like me he needed to lose a lot more than 100 pounds. I've lost 35 and have about 200 more to go to get to my ideal weight.

The reversal of diabetes is almost never mentioned by physicians but it CAN be done. With diet and nutrition. Much heart disease as well.

Genetics IS part of the picture but if you have bad genes then all the more reason to take better care of yourself.

Yes, Fuhrman sells some products. But everything you need to use his eating plan is on his web site for FREE (see the food pyramid and ANDI food rating chart). His books go into great detail and are not expensive. The details add variety to your menu and help plan meals but you can do it without. You can purchase most of the things he sells with a few exceptions at health or whole food stores IF you want to add them to your diet. A few are even available at Wallyworld. . . The diet plan only requires a change in thinking and your menu. Using the Fuhrman food pyramid and sample rating chart you can eat healthy, lose weight and improve your life. Folks have saved their lives by the purchase of a $15 book and following its advise. If you want personal advise you can get it on-line for a year about the same cost as a single visit to a GP.

It was very shortly after I realized that my Mt.Dew habit had escalated to two 2 liter bottles a day that I quit all sodas cold turkey and didn't touch another for several years. Then about 5 years ago I started to drink sugar free drinks. . Now I've quit them as well. The combination of caffeine and synthetic sweeteners screws with your metabolism and don't help in losing weight. Its an addictive combination I hope to avoid for the rest of my life.
- guru - Friday, 06/25/10 15:58:59 EDT

I personally love our Canadian system of health care. It is not perfect but were I or any member of my family to get seriously sick I do not have to worry about an insurance company cutting off my insurance or raising my rates to ridiculous rates. Our hospitals do not have to have as much administration built in to bill insurance companies.

Yes there is often a wait for some elective surgeries, and waiting time in emergency rooms is often too long, but that is a small price to pay for the advantages of our systems. In your recent health care debates much was made of bureaucrats making health decisions I would rather have a government bureaucrat making decisions about my health than an insurance company bureaucrat watching the bottom line making decisions about my health.

For those of you that will cry about socialism what do you call your VA system or you Old Age Medicaid system? I am sure that a lack of an employer insurance plan keeps many people from self employment.

I recently heard an excellent debate on the radio on the merits of the Canadian vs. American system. The debaters were all doctors and 2 had also been politicians I think there was one American and one Canadian Arguing for each system. If anyone is interested look up the Munk Debates. They were broadcast on CBC radio on a show called "Ideas" There is not a Podcast up on their site yet but I think it will be going up next week.
- JNewman - Friday, 06/25/10 16:59:07 EDT

Socialized Medicine: Only a few decades ago most hospitals were non-profit or owned by municipalities. The corporate operated hospital system has greatly changed the economics of medicine in the U.S. I think for the worse.

In many towns and cities in the U.S> they have taken over the entire medical system having bought all the labs and many group practices. They often also own the staffing services. Cities where you once had a choice of hospitals are now run by one large for profit corporate medical giant. The public has no choice, the doctors, nurses and technicians have no choice. All controlled by large heartless corporations with no morals.

In my former home town in Virginia this is now the case. The hospitals that used to be operated by the city and the Baptist church are now both owned by one mega corp. They avoid the law that says you cannot refuse medical service by not making appointments for anyone without insurance. You cannt pay CASH as I recently did for services here in North Carolina. Thus the only way you can get services without insurance is to wait until it is an emergency and are are taken to the ER.

A Family Physician trying to setup a practice finds it almost impossible. They cannot get laboratory services, surgical privileges or staff without going through the corporation. They cannot make or get referrals.

If my choice was to have a government run system or single operator for profit systems without controls that make it impossible for independent doctors to practice, I would take the government system.

When we had city run hospitals (as the vast majority were a few decades ago) they were government run non-profit systems. Was this better or worse than what we have now. . . I think it was better.

In Costa Rica the public health system is similar to Canada's. All licensed physicians must work a certain number of hours for the public system at wages set by the government. They can also have private practices. Many people use the private practices because it is easier to see a doctor. But if they need something major that they cannot pay cash for they still have the government system. So there is both a public and a private system. But if you let large corporations have there way there will be NO private medical practices except THEIRS.

Do I think the U.S. Federal government could do a better job, emphatically NO. But I think the mega corporation is a much worse choice. I would much rather see a private system OR the return of a non-profit system with strict government controls.
- guru - Friday, 06/25/10 19:45:58 EDT

Dr. Furman & diet & other stuff: I watched several hours of Dr. Furman's presentation on a PBS fund rasing drive less than 2 weeks ago. His emphasis in this program was diabetes.

If You have blood sgar issues, eating low on the glycemic index is a no brainer.

I know a person who claims eating low glycemic index foods helped with Lyme disease, but I havn't heard that from anyone else or read of a study confirming it.

My insurance pays a "negotiated rate" which is less than the billed cost, but acceptable to the Drs. & hospitals. It is a lot more than 40% of the billed cost.

I feel that I am getting good care from the "for profit" hospital, but the cost is high.

A cousins husband's sister [not related to Me] was diagnosed with colon cancer shortly after I was. Hers was metasticised also. She had no insurance, but did get care off and on but not consistantly. I guess it takes a lot of gaul to insist on care when You know You can't pay for it. I think She did get some Govt. asistance or charity case considerations. Her overall health deteriated, She has now passed on.

I am aware that socialised medicine works [at least to a degree] in other countries, but the US Govt. track record at running other large programs and having them all at or near insolvency gets My vote of NO CONFIDENCE.

Some years back there was an attempt to allow those of Us who buy Our own health insurance to buy it with pre tax dollars. It went now where. The present trend is to try to tax the employer's contribution to health insurance. You think private industry is greedy and has no concience? Take a look at Our Govt.
- Dave Boyer - Friday, 06/25/10 22:41:42 EDT

Insurance and Taxes:
The tax laws have changed a number of times on this and the rules constantly. This along with the constant tinkering with the tax laws and forms make it difficult to keep up with and difficult to do financial planning.

I think we have the best health care system in the world from a technical and facilities stand point. But if it is not affordable and bankrupting the country then there is something seriously wrong.

When corporations can dictate that they will not accept cash customers for medical services then there is something seriously wrong.

When the government is going to FINE people for not being able to afford health insurance then something is seriously wrong.


Paying as you go is a form of self-insuring. Due to the skyrocketing costs of liability insurance most cites and states in the US are now "self insuring". Simply put, they have no insurance and pay any legal liability out of pocket as they actually do not have a self insuring fund. This also means there is a cap on what they can pay out. . . In a bad year they just ignore court awarded claims. This has been a fact of life for a good while.

So imagine the Federal government mandating that every city pay millions of dollars (that they do not have) to insurance companies. The new fines on individuals for not having insurance are the same thing. If there is no money, there is NO money. . .
- guru - Saturday, 06/26/10 08:34:36 EDT

Seriously, nobody will talk about the healthful benefits of 6-8 glasses of WATER a day? If all you drink is sugary soft drinks your body is in a constant state of dehydration. Is you pee dark yellow and smelly? There's your answer. Start drinking only water (less the morning cup of joe) and after the first two days or so you will pee non stop. Then your body will adjust and equillibriate (is that even a word?). My pee is more like water than the usual lemonade yellow. That's how it SHOULD be... otherwise your body is being used as a filter and your pee is the leftovers. Just imagine what's being left behind in your kidneys.

Or just keep drinking iced tea and enjoy a life filled with chronic kidney stones.
- Nippulini - Saturday, 06/26/10 08:40:05 EDT

on a forging note... I've always wanted to pee quench, don't ask me why. I also think scale looks like it would make a nice breading for fried chicken.
- Nippulini - Saturday, 06/26/10 08:41:35 EDT

Pee Quench: Don't do it. . . In my youth we made the mistake of peeing on the campfire. . The site reeked for years afterwards and could not be used for camping.

While it is pee of a different variety. . Back when I was locksmithing I had purchased a significant collection of key blanks and had them all sorted on a board for easy access. A neighbor's tom cat got in my shop and marked the key blanks. . . I tried EVERYTHING to clean them including soaking in vinegar. They still reeked of cat piss. Ever since then I have considered male cats as destructive varmits that deserved being shot on sight.

I drink more water now. I'm not a coffee or tea drinker but often drink orange juice, low sodium V8 and now an Acai Berry blend. But since the fruit juices all contain sugar (even though natural sugar) I have to limit those considerably. The low sodium V8 is also still a bit salty and shouldn't be ingested in large quantities. Yep, water is best.
- guru - Saturday, 06/26/10 09:18:28 EDT

I heard a story about someone who finished his basement walls with beautiful old slabs of marble that were previously used as screens between urinals. Well, they turned out to be beautiful to one sense, but not so much to another. . . .
Mike BR - Saturday, 06/26/10 10:12:42 EDT

You're Right. We're in a time of mega-colas, energy-drinks and constant Star-bucks pit-stops.
And I must confess........I am one of them and it's also taking it's toll as I come upon being 40.
I have become a Coke-A-hollic, to the point that we have cases stacked over 4-foot tall in our garage...and we have "NO-KIDS".
XXX-strong home-brewed coffee with extra-sugar & coffee-mate made twice a day.....
Getting into the groove of "less-Coke/more water" isn't easy for me but being made a habbit.
NOW we go walking 3-miles per walk, a couple times a week, and refilling our water-bottles along the way more often.

It's just funny that you don't realize how little water one drinks on an average-day without thinking about it.
Danial - Saturday, 06/26/10 13:35:19 EDT

In general, I drink only water. In the mornings it has been heated and passed through ground up roasted coffee beans (consumed black), and around 5 in the afternoon it has often been distilled with some nifty yeast by-product, but I'd estimate that I easily go through 8 glasses of ordinary water (not including the adulterated varieties) per day. That's nearly a gallon. I don't like juice and it doesn't like me.

I haven't been on sugary drinks for nigh on 20 years, which is probably the only reason I weigh around 200 lbs instead of 350.

One good use for all that pee is as a patination agent for "antiquing" polished carbon steels. I had a guy who wanted some antiqued axeheads once, so I hung 'em on a bush and "watered" them once a day for a week. After a good scrubbing in hot water they looked like they'd been in the ground for fifty years or so.

You can also save it in a large jug and spray it around your garden every evening to keep the deer and raccoons away. My wife thinks that's hilarious, but it works. I keep imagining a big ol' raccoon smelling the continuous 100-foot-long territorial marking and thinking "I don't know what did that, but if it can pee that much I'm not gonna mess with it!"
Alan-L - Saturday, 06/26/10 14:01:23 EDT

I remember hearing a story about someone that "cured" their male dog from marking his territory in the house by putting him in the shower and pissing on him! The friends that told me the story had a similar problem with a little dog they had and we threatened him with the "cure" more than once and everyone got a good laugh.

This little dog had a technique of trotting through the house and raising his leg and marking every corner without missing a beat. The owners had not caught him until I day how he did it and pointed it out the them. . . I suspect that if you gave THIS dog the cure he would mark your bed pillow next. .
- guru - Saturday, 06/26/10 20:32:27 EDT

The Pee Quench is mention in "Divers Arts" written by a German monk named Theophilus around 1120 A.D.

He suggested using the urine of a small redheaded boy or that of a goat fed ferns for 3 days.

I have used it for highly accurate replicas. Stale pee has a most amusing smell when red hot steel hits it. nb far better to try this in the country than suburbia!

It's like a weak brine quench.

Thomas much more like the old goat than the young boy these days

Medical: It totally surprises our co-workers from Chile when they learn that an *insured* worker in America can still be bankrupted by medical issues; that fact that many workers *don't* have insurace they consider a wonder and a disgrace!
ThomasP - Saturday, 06/26/10 23:52:42 EDT

Alchemy and the Beginnings of Modern Chemistry:
One of the first elements to be isolated toward the end of the alchemy period was Phosphorus. It was produced by cooking down stale urine.

Many of the things alchemists tried in their pursuit of converting lead into gold and the mythical philospohers stone ended up advancing real science. Even today much science and particularly metallurgy, is a process of trial and error. Make a mixture and test it in every possible way (mechanical, electrical, chemical). Make another and test it, over and over again.
- guru - Sunday, 06/27/10 09:57:18 EDT

Uses of urine: When I was doing some very rough arc welding which had to be done in a huge hurry it was not unknown, if you couldn't get a good earth connection, to urinate on the ground clamp. It is a wonderful conductor.
- philip in china - Sunday, 06/27/10 22:20:30 EDT

Healthcare: Maybe those guys should go back to Chile. Tell them to do us a favor and take anyone, silly enough to think that the same US government that ruined "free-market" healthcare can properly run a socialized program, back with them.
Landon - Monday, 06/28/10 00:02:52 EDT

commentary: Geez you guys have been busy over the week end!!
It took me so long to read and digest all the running commentary since the last time I posted that I have used up my morning alotment of computer time befor getting a chance to throw in my two cents worth.
I guess I'll have to try again later...
- merl - Monday, 06/28/10 11:05:02 EDT

They did go back to Chile as that's where the project is being built. Shoot I went down to Chile recently too.

The present system is not working; how do you think it can be fixed?
- Thomas P - Monday, 06/28/10 15:53:52 EDT

I feel that healthcare has become too much like welfare. We are entitled to too many unnecessary services. I'm a state employee in North Carolina so I'm entitled to 25 or so chiropractor visits each year. Even with necessary services like yearly check-ups or visiting the doctor for a sore throat, we should not expect our insurance company to cover that either. That's why insurance cost as much as it does. It's like expecting our auto insurance company to pay for our tire rotations, brake jobs, and oil changes. Imagine how much car insurance would cost if that were the case.
The bottom line is that insurance companies are still companies and need to make money in order to exist. When state and federal government force them to cover silly things like chiropractor visits, they are forced to calculate the risk that everyone covered will take advantage of these mandates. This risk calculation cause prices to go up. The government needs to allow health insurance to operate more like auto insurance. Give people the option to buy from the company that has the plan which fits their needs. This will take the power away from big monopolies like Blue Cross that carries NC state employees. Add in the option of catastrophic health plans and we're off to great start. More choices equals more freedom, less red tape, lower operating costs and therefore cheaper doctor bills that can be out of pocket rather than filed with big insurance. This would free up the government to extend coverage to people with pre-existing conditions or poor children.
The way this new health care bill is set-up, a young person can just pay the fine(tax) and wait until they get sick or hurt then sign up for insurance. That's not insurance, it's welfare.
Mr. Powers,
I'm sorry if my earlier comment seemed like an attack. Thanks for letting me in on this debate.
Landon - Monday, 06/28/10 17:40:26 EDT

Landon, the problem with "all the little things" that insurance companies pay for is that they OFFER these services as enticements to buy their insurance. In Virginia Blue Cross did this many years ago and when people starting taking advantage of what was included coverage Blue Cross complained to the state board and then got a rate increase. . .. GEEEEE. . . They offered services then didn't expect have to pay for them??? Its like a game of bait an switch, offer me a product at one price but then if I USE it raise the price.

So if you are "entitled" to those 25 visits it is part of the service that the insurance company offered at the price they quoted along with all the other coverage. According to simple market rules and your contract with the insurance company you have PAID for those services.

Now, the insurance company was gambling that many people like my self who have no use for a chiropractor would never avail themselves of that service. But if more people than they expected take advantage of it then they have LOST the bet. However, insurance companies are the worlds most sophisticated statistics collectors in the world and generally they do not lose. But when they DO, they bitch and complain and go crying to the regulatory boards. .

Part of the problem is the outrageous prices charged for every little item by hospitals. They don't have 20-30% markups like industrail supplies, they don't have 100% markups like the average retail business (They pay $1, you pay $2), they don't have 800% markups like ladies clothing stores (who often run 75% off sales and are still making more than standard retail at that). . Hospitals often have 1000% markups and NEVER have "sales". This covers everything from bandages and syringes to medical appliances.

Boy, I would LOVE to 1000% markups. . But you wouldn't. A $44 jar of ITC-100 would cost you $340 and 10 feet of Kaowool $700. . . And if UPS had the same pricing model the shipping on those products would almost equal the price. . Gee, imagine a $4 jar of peanut butter costing $30 and a loaf of bread $10. .

THEN there are Doctors salaries. . In countries with socialized medicine they are 10th what they are here and they don't have shortages of doctors. Gee, is that another place that is 1000% more? Then there are the corporate head honchos that need salaries int he millions. . .

Now. . if we ALL had those kind of profit margins we would all be making more money to pay those higher prices and oh gee. . medical expenses would not seem so outrageous. But one segment of the economy cannot continue to bilk us just because the insurance companies and government will pay. . .

Out of control costs can be controlled if anyone has the will to do it. But our government which cannot control its simplest costs is definitely not up to the task. . . And the people profiting off it certainly are not either. . .
- guru - Monday, 06/28/10 22:44:32 EDT

Bronze Anvil: My brother, a millwright, recently purchased an anvil made of bronze. The dimensions are 7" tall with a 31/2 x 9" face. Total length of 13" and a weight of approx 50 lbs. It has a horn, Pritchel hole, Hardy hole, all you would expect to find in an anvil. The problem is, neither of us has ever heard of such an anvil. Can anyone shed any light on this. Thanks, Gerry
- Gerry - Monday, 06/28/10 23:27:19 EDT

Your exactly right about people falling for it when insurance companies offer these benefits. The problem now is that a lot of are waking up to it but can't do anything about it because of the lack of competition. I'm sure that doctors salaries would adjust to market forces if the market was left the hell alone. Monopolies are a part of dirty politics combined with corporate greed, not free-market capitalism. When people buy your ITC or Kaowool they do so because the price is right compared to your competitors. When I go to the doctor, I have no idea what I'm being charged because most of the bill is sent to a third party. I don't have the option of finding a better deal. I just pay the copay and the system perpetuates. Healthcare is the only product/service we buy but don't know the cost and why the cost are so. Hospital markups can be attributed what can only be called socialism. The massive loss that hospitals take every year from unpaid bills due to the fact that they cannot turn anyone away is divided up among the rest of us. And since most of the rest of us have insurance, our premiums rise yet again. I can't help but think that 12,000,000 illegal aliens are adding a lot to this problem.
Landon - Tuesday, 06/29/10 00:42:41 EDT

Bronze Anvil:
Gerry, The only bronze anvils I have heard of were from the Bronze Age and these looked more like a shoe last than a modern London pattern anvil.

If the color is a light red bordering on pink it may be a Beryllium bronze anvil. Beryllium is very hard and is used make non-sparking tools for use in areas with dangerous levels of flammable vapors. Various tools are made for this situation but I have not heard of an anvil.

If its more brassy it could possibly be a Jewelers anvil for working silver and gold. Again, I've never heard of this. However, Dapping blocks (like minature swage blocks) are made of brass for jewelers so an anvil would not be out of the question.

The vast majority of brass or bronze anvils are little 2.5-3" long miniature souvenir anvils or paper weight. It could be a one off personal project someone made OR it could have been some kind of award or retirement present. Folks in foundries and machine shops are commonly tasked to make some fantastic thing as a gift for some beloved person.

I call some folks about it in the morning.

I sure would like some photos of it for the Anvil Gallery!
- guru - Tuesday, 06/29/10 01:57:52 EDT

Unpaid Hospital Bills:
There is some of what you say but I think that many times the outrageous costs make it worse. When our good friend Paw-Paw Wilson died it cost $15,000/day for 4 days for him to die in the hospital. He had no insurance and the only thing his 65 year old wife had was her car and house. She had not worked full time for several years and that had been as a biscuit maker at a McDonalds. She had a part time job working for her Church. She had to ask for charity from the hospital. They wrote off the entire debt.

Now. . IF the cost had been half to a third of that, say $20,000 and the hospital agreed to half she would have felt that it would be POSSIBLE to pay off at least that much and she would have found work somewhere. . and spent the rest of her life paying it off. But at her age and qualifications there was no possible way to pay off $60,000 in her lifetime.

When I recently needed medical attention we told the doctors office we would be paying cash. They said there would be a $250 deposit due on the first appointment. Luckily I have a credit card that I could put it on. Others might not be so lucky and had to make use of the ER. The appointment did not cost nearly that much. AND there was a 40% discount for paying cash. Subsequent visits, a minor procedure and lab work ran the total up to about $500. Under insurance that would have been $840. I'm sure that an ER visit would have been more expensive and the total amount would have written off as a loss by the hospital if I could not have paid . . (not the discounted or REAL cost amount).

For what I had done and the services I got I thought the cost was reasonable. I took up the time of a receptionist, nurse, doctor and accountant or clerk as well as use of facilities. However, I thought the amount billed for Paw-PAw was outregaous. Every person that anything to do with his being in the hospital from the orderlies to the nurses and doctors could have EACH been paid $1000 per day and the hospital still gotten thousands of dollars per day for the room and a few services. But you know very well that none of those folks other than perhaps the doctors get anything close to $1000 per day. So the bulk of that money would have gone to the corporation that runs the Hospital.

Some of our system works. But there is much too much greed in the other parts.
- guru - Tuesday, 06/29/10 02:25:27 EDT

Bronze Anvils: Actually, I have 3 or 4 WORKING, as opposed to souvenir, anvils. They are very common in Argentina, for jewelers. These are bronze, not brass, and show signs of years of use. Setting rivets, shaping curves, flattening sheet, and so on. They are quite small- usually 3" to 6" in length.
Argentina is over half italian, and I would guess the small bronze anvil tradition is Italian.
Regardless, its quite common there.

I travel there quite a bit, and collect minature Argentine anvils. Some are souvenir novelty items, some working anvils. All are traditional, euro style double horn, as opposed to London pattern with a heel.
- ries - Tuesday, 06/29/10 11:23:37 EDT

More about brass bronze:
Being bright and non-ferrous you do not think of brass and bronze being heavier (more dense) than steel but it is. A part made in steel is 11% heavier if made in bronze. This is half the difference between steel and lead.

Anvils and work surfaces have also been made of lead. File cutters used lead anvils (just a large lead block) for straightening files and as backup when cutting a second side. Some repousse' artists still do detail work on a thick lead sheet. While the lead IS toxic it is still very useful as long as one is careful to wash carefully after coming in contact with it.

The non-ferrous metals being easier to cast and not needing heat treatment I've often thought about casting both lead and bronze anvils. I thought a reproduction of the Cape Gelidonya bronze age swage block/anvil would be an interesting project.

Cape Gelidonya Bronze Block
- guru - Tuesday, 06/29/10 12:30:14 EDT

Not sure there'd be much point in a non-sparking anvil. Unless you only used it for cold work, I guess.
Mike BR - Tuesday, 06/29/10 21:17:38 EDT

Greg S.:

As I recall Anvils in America says at one time there were something like 6,000 foundries in the U.S. No doubt there were concentrated in cites.

For example, there was the Southern Skein and Foundry Company of Chattoonga. (Skeins were the metal part of a wagon hub but they also made a Southern Crescent anvil brand.) According to Richard Postman he has learned the foundry was bought out by the Illinois Iron and Bolt Company, who had the VULCAN anvil brand.

The Racine Steel and Iron Manufacturing Company (Rachine, WI) was the result of three skein manufactors consolidating. It too was later bought out by II&B.

The anvil you saw was possible a one-of-a-kind and thus might be of interest to anvil collectors. Sounds like the anvil was all cast iron and didn't hold up to wear.

May be worth buying for speculation purposes.
Ken Scharabok - Tuesday, 06/29/10 22:54:45 EDT

I saw the anvil on craigslist the next day and I think it sold pretty quick for $75,he offered it to me for $30,he paid $60.This anvil was still to rough for $30.The face of the cast anvil was nearly gone except for a small section in the middle,he did say that the old fellow had another one and that it had a real small horn and possibly no holes in the top.
I told him if he got that one, I would be interested in doing some money changing.He was by the way impressed with the large double horned Rat Hole Forge
anvil in my shop,I like it very much myself.
Greg S - Wednesday, 06/30/10 09:36:55 EDT

I purchase beat up old anvils when the price is right.

I had a really poor condition Star with the thin face that I gave or loaned out so DaveB's boys could have something to pound on that they couldn't hurt and could be mounted at the right height.

I've got two old anvils with the horns broken off. One is so ancient and so used that the face is worn through to the wrought. The other is a fairly nice anvil other than missing the horn. Both are good for conversations and for teaching kids or newbies.

Keeping old junk anvils in circulation is handy for teaching and for newbies that need an inexpensive anvil.
- guru - Wednesday, 06/30/10 17:39:47 EDT

Counter    Copyright © 2010 Jock Dempsey, Cummulative_Arc GSC


International Ceramics Products