Some tools to drool over.  Image (c) 1998 Jock Dempsey.  Click for enlargement. WELCOME to the anvilfire!
Virtual Hammer-In!

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J. Dempsey  <webmaster> Rev. 7/98, 3/99, 5/2k, 6/2k, Friday, 04/06/01 16:43:25 GMT

Our Long going Power Hammer project:
Well, we are getting close. Dave and I partially assembled one hammer so we can fit the motor bracket and treadle linkage. We have some alignment issues left over from the all night and day sessions that we put in before the last CSI hammer-in. Working when you are too tired is not a good idea. .

All but one of the machined parts are done for two hammers and the unique spring arrangement has been tested by hand operation.

I thought the springs were too heavy so we put in a lighter leaf and now I think they are too light. . . But we have room to replace springs, add and remove leaves as needed.

The problem with projects taking this long is that you get new ideas or you make modifications. We learned that tire wear was a problem, especially on heavier tire hammers (this is a 94 pound (43kg) hammer). So we added an extra set of holes to the wheel flange so that the tire could be rotated in 45 degree increments to prevent wear in one spot. I have lots of new ideas but they will have to wait until these hammers are FINISHED and working.

There have also been some expenses. We bought motors when we started but I decided we needed a little more horsepower and a heavier frame size. The ones that were purchased in a hurry had 5/8" shafts and the ones on order have 7/8". The "old" motors will be used on our next project, belt grinders (which would have been nice to have done FIRST).

The other problem is rust. It rains almost as much inside the shop that Paw-Paw built as it does outside. . . All that unpainted steel that was NEW two years ago now looks like junkyard hammer material. We have started painting or at least priming parts as soon as they are finished now. .

Our hammer design uses very low non-working mass. That is, it doesn't have those heavy arms and links like the LG or the long spring and connecting rod of the Rusty. It also has the full complement of adjustments (both stroke length and height). This means it can be rust fast and light or slow and hard as well as any other combination.

We are getting excited about seeing them run. When they are working I will have a full article on the construction followed by plans.

We have a very clean design for a 2x72 belt grinder using interchangeable tilting heads that will be out next project. After that. . . A forge plan that will knock your socks off! We need to test the prototype before we say too much.
- guru - Saturday, 07/03/10 10:13:48 EDT

Looking forward to seeing some videos of those hammers Jock !
- John N - Sunday, 07/04/10 06:03:06 EDT

John, will do. Should be running this summer. . .
- guru - Sunday, 07/04/10 07:25:52 EDT

400 lb PW anvil for sale (SW VA): All,

I have to bow to reality, and I'm more in need of a car than a good anvil.

For sale is a 400 lb anvil that Mr. Poston thinks is probably a Peter Wright, for $800 OBO. See photos at http://www.covenanttutorials.com/anvil (also on Craigslist at http://blacksburg.craigslist.org/grd/1825439266.html). I'll help you load it (you'll need the help); I'm in Willis, about 35 minutes S of Christiansburg in southwest Virginia.
craigslist post
Paymeister - Sunday, 07/04/10 16:06:30 EDT

New Videos: Speaking of videos. We have just posted an anvil shoot video taken by Paw-Paw in 1999. We've also added a number of short clips to the reviews videos and fixed the broken links on that page.

We have a collection of videos taken by Paw-Paw that are being converted to DVD format then extracted and edited for use on anvilfire. In the coming weeks we should have the whole set posted.
Anvil Shoot filmed by Jim Paw-Paw Wilson
- guru - Sunday, 07/04/10 17:03:11 EDT

Paymeister I get an error on that covenanttutorials.com URL.
- guru - Sunday, 07/04/10 17:05:44 EDT

big anvil: I see an anvil, but it doesn't look like a PW.
Frank Turley - Sunday, 07/04/10 18:56:54 EDT

Don't laugh: The belt sander project would be very interesting for me Jock. I have tried to buy one here but can't find one- which is rather ironic as 99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999% of the worlds power tools are made here!
- Philip in China - Sunday, 07/04/10 20:41:16 EDT

Shhhhhhh. .. don't tell "THEM"!
- guru - Sunday, 07/04/10 21:12:55 EDT

More on big anvil for sale: The link http://www.covenanttutorials.com/anvil/ worked for me just now. I'll see if I can send you the photos directly.

Regarding whether it is indeed a Peter Wright: all I can do is tell you what Mr. Poston wrote me (wish I had his letter still). He was not definitive, but that was his guess based on a dozen photos showing all parts of the anvil. A fellow on ebay has a Sodefor anvil listed which looks very similar, but mine has none of the markings he describes (see http://cgi.ebay.com/Nice-389-Lb-Soderfor-Swedish-Blacksmith-Anvil-Huge-/300441512043?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item45f3b5a86b). I certainly can't be definitive about the make, just giving you all the info I have.
anvil photos
Paymeister - Monday, 07/05/10 00:30:30 EDT

Advice requested re Big Anvil: And if my starting price is waaay out of line it would be good to hear it from friends...
Paymeister - Monday, 07/05/10 00:33:15 EDT

Answer in the mail
- guru - Monday, 07/05/10 21:38:13 EDT

Paymeister: I don't think You are WAY out of line, but if You need to sell fast, You might have to take a bit less.

It is the same old story, to get top price, You have to be able to wait for someone who WANTS IT BAD.
- Dave Boyer - Monday, 07/05/10 22:24:15 EDT

sahinler sm50 for sale: sahinler air hammer for sale sm-50 check ebay item no.180530309652
- greg - Saturday, 07/10/10 16:25:11 EDT

GOOD TO BE HOME!: WOW, it is so good to be back in the land of the free.....I had almost forgot what it was like. Freedom of speach, right to bare arms, the right to worship whatever/whoever I want.
It took me an hour to read through all the threads since the last time I was on here. The one thing that I agree most on.....That General got what he deserved !
On to better things.....I built my forge while I was on vacation...Holy melted metal Batman...what a blast! I built a small one about 13 inches across and 10 inches deep coal forge with a cute lil blower on it. It took about 2 days of puttering around until I got it right but when I did look out scrap steel! Well we, my brother and I loaded it up with coal and set that puppy on fire. I thought for a min we would never get it to burn but she took of like a raped ape! I looked around for some scrap anything and stuck a pc of (I have no clue steel) in the fire. In about 10 mins she was ready for all my built up aggression. I also found a pc of RR track and mounted that to a chunk of maple tree we cut down, I cant afford a good anvil.....I beat and I beat and I beat some more....yes I turned a perfectly good pc of scrap metal into another perfectly good pc of scrap metal....at on point I thought someone had slipped me a Viagra...It was just that FUN!....after about 5-6 hrs of scrap metal recycling I was then beat....my brother and sat down, had a beer or two and just looked at the forge. What a beautifull thing it is and after the two beers she looked even better. The next day wow the next day....hum...I woke up let out some very nasty profain words and then requested that my wife help me out of the bed. I was so sore from head to toe....ok one could say I over did it with the hammer swinging. Someone could have warned me...I took two asprin and lit that puppy up again.
Well to say the least I cant wait to go back to Moms house this coming weekend to pick up my forge. Although I dont think they will let me fire it up here on West Point....the MP's may have something to say about that. So I will look for a good place to have some more fun.
We are now somewhat settled in at West Point and I start back to the daily grind of work on Monday.
- Camoman - Sunday, 07/11/10 06:44:43 EDT

Welcome home camoman: Camoman, Welcome home Brother.
Depending on what hurt after hammering, you may just need coditioning and practise. If you use the wrong technique, however you may need to alter how you work a little to reduce the morning after pain, as well as reducing damage to your body.
First, the striking surface of the anvil should be at a comfortabe height. Most folks find that if they are standing up straight, the fingers bent 90 degrees at the first finger knuckle, that knuckle will just brush the striking surface.
Second, a too light anvil will be bouncy, and the bouncey anvil will send shock waves back into the arm. The best way to use RR rail for an anvil is to set the rail up vertical and use that thick part of the head head end as the anvil. That way you have the most steel mass directly under the anvil.
When you next forge, check you stance. too bent over? holding the hammer with a death grip? Thumb on top of the hammer handle? all will hurt you.

A good hammer swing is a natural raise the hammer high, I like to have the hammer hand reach level with my ear for power blows. Then control and guide the hammer on the way down. Let the falling mass of the hammer do the work. Don't push the hammer down, just guide and control and maybe start the swing with some arm muscle.
At the point of impact you want you wrist in line and natural. The hammer head should strike level with the work making a unifom dent, unless you choose a angled dent to move metal in one direction.
I like to scrape my handle clean and smooth, and then rub a little bees wax on the handle. In use the bees wax will warm to your hand and get slightly sticky, improving the grip and reducing the force required in the grip.
ptree - Sunday, 07/11/10 08:12:52 EDT

Forging Practice: Camoman, Glad you are home in one piece. Stay that way!

No matter how fit you are swinging a hammer is different than anything else. As Ptree pointed out a death grip on the hammer can kill you. Keep it loose, don't over do. It takes a week or more of forging a little every day to work up to putting in more than an hour without pain. Months to get where you can forge all day.

Good work posture is also very important. Like your military training it takes practice and discipline. You don't slouch when standing at attention, you don't hunch over the anvil. Many smiths get in that bad habit and its hard on them. Stand up straight and take possession of your anvil as if others are trying to take it away from you. Guard your anvil by standing close and erect when you work. Be alert to hunching over the anvil.

The two worst newbie stances are 1) too far from the anvil keeping it at arms length as if scared of the hot iron, 2)hunching over it. Your toes should nearly touch the base of the stand. If using tongs your hand should be next to your leg or slightly farther back, not reaching out.

It can be difficult to think about your posture when doing so many new things but try.

Practice forging nice square tapered points. Forge on one axis and then the other. Do not let it get too flat or it will fold and cause a cold shut. These in turn are the starting point for tapers for scrolls, leaves, punches, and other things. After making good square points make them round (conical) points by forging the corners flat to make an octagon point, then knock off the remaining corners to make it round.

Other good practice is to turn round bar into square and square bar into round. The results are nice forged all over stock for that rustic hand forged look.

Turning scrap into scrap is not as bad as turning new material into scrap. . .
- guru - Sunday, 07/11/10 12:14:03 EDT

Camoman & Ptree
I agree with you both concerning the General. Glad we got a good one now. However, I can't help find a contradiction in Camoman coment "freedom of speech" statement "General got what he deserved" for exercising his right with diplomacy. Even though I agree it still seems situational or limited for the very few. Is it "Democracy for the Few"?
- Smelling Burnt Coal - Sunday, 07/11/10 12:28:11 EDT

Free speach and the military: As any one who has served knows, when you join the military, in most aspects the constitutionno longer applies. The law is "The Uniform Code of Military Justice"
When you are a General, you are more politician than officer. Generals are each confirmed by Congress.

Due to the need for instant response and carrying out of orders in combat, the rules are different for those in the military. The UCMJ does require that unlawfull orders not be carried out. The uCMJ does allow the shooting on the spot of those who refuse to carry out lawful orders in combat.

NOT the civilian world.
ptree - Sunday, 07/11/10 14:18:09 EDT

ptree...thanks for clearing up the confusion.
Even though I agree with you guys because of the former General's position, I certainly feel any American can criticize the corrupt lying liberal toad we currently have leading/destroying our nation today. You guys may not agree, but it is your right.
I know my Great 7th Grandfather his seventeen sons and grandsons who all fought in the Revolutionary war with each other wouldn't agree with this mess today after what they fought for.
- Smelling Burnt Coal - Sunday, 07/11/10 15:08:41 EDT

Freedom of speach: Oh man I didnt mean to start anything BUTT!....ptree is 100% right when he says that we (The Military) can not express our opinions all the time as we please. We must have the discipline to obey the orders barked at us...although you may not agree with them. When I first entered the Army I didnt relize that and it took years before I understood why it is so important to to aquire that discipline. As long as I am in the Army I CAN NOT and will not express opinions about my Chain of Command, it just causes one heartache. I can tell you that the min that I become a civilian in less than 4 years after I retire I will talk so much TRASH about the current political situation it will make your head spinn...I think I may even write a book AND tell the truth in it....LOL
Ok on the better things.....Thank You all for the advise. I will put it all to good use. I plan to beat up some scrap this coming weekend as soon as I get back to Ohio for the weekend.
Camoman - Sunday, 07/11/10 21:21:30 EDT

"corrupt lying liberal toad"? Jeez man! Look, the last 8 prez. screwed up the country, so I'll just assume you're hopping on the "current prez sucks" bandwagon. THAT said, I like watching uptight conservative republicans squirm in attempts to "care" about the environment just so they can slam Obama.
- Nippulini - Monday, 07/12/10 07:50:10 EDT

Interesting Read: Read this book earlier this month; A young man in Mali tells of his desire to improve the quality of life for his family and himself. Describes some very imaginative adaptations, reworking of scrap materials, and what power to actually learn through self-study can accomplish.

Book: "The boy who harnessed the wind : creating currents of electricity and hope"

Authors: William Kamkwamba and Bryan Mealer

ISBN (hardcover): 9780061730320

Another hot and muggy day North of the Lake (Ontario.)

Don

- Don Shears - Monday, 07/12/10 10:01:25 EDT

Nippulini You are a funny guy. At least we know the previous presidents were actually citizens and they didn't need wackidoo czars...LOL
- Smelling Burnt Coal - Monday, 07/12/10 11:07:06 EDT

Politics. . .: Right!, Donald Rumsfeld who gave us unsafe food additives such as Aspertame, and then profited off the war in the Iraq while personally micro managing the war (so poorly he was asked to resign) not a political Czar? Donald Rumsfeld who was a member of congress in 1962 and advisor or cabinett member to every Republican president from that point onward? Then there were the other "advisors" of Ronald Regan who made some of the most significant economic policy changes in decades which promoted and allowed the export of most of our industry. . . Ronald Regan who was suspected of memory problems while in office and was diagnosed and died of Alzheimer's a few years after leaving office. WHO do you think was actually in control?

Every president has had advisers of various kinds and various talents. Some are ineffective, some have held great power. None are elected officials. Some are friends of the elected, some GOT the elected into their offices and owe their career to the non-elected "Czars". Its how politics work in the US.
- guru - Monday, 07/12/10 12:32:51 EDT

Guru
I think you got a little crossed up-that was Clinton with NAFTA and CAFTA. Reagan died almost 18 years after his presidency. Alzheimer's end stage progresses really fast. He showed early signs while he was still high functioning ten years before death. It wasn't an issue when he was President.
- Smelling Burnt Coal - Monday, 07/12/10 14:11:10 EDT

You don't remember Reagan's speech about the patriotism of a brave airforce pilot? It turned out it was a scene from a fictional movie. .

"The tale of the courageous pilot who went down with his gunner, who was stuck in his turret when the plane started going down."

– from the 1944 film, Wing and a Prayer.

He remembered the story but could not remember it was fiction. There were numerous others including cases where he stated he was THERE. . . He was also stuttering quite badly by the end of his presidency not being able to remember words and all his speeches were carefully scripted and shorter than usual.

Alzheimer's is hard to diagnose in its early stages and many people have symptoms for a decade or more before being diagnosed. Reagan was pretty far along and had been hiding it when the announcement was made.

You actually have to go back to Nixon who made a deal with Taiwan not to tax their import machinery in exchange for not complaining too much about our recognizing mainland China as THE China. But it was the "Brilliant" (about 15 Watt) economists of the Reagan administration and "Reganomics" that said deregulation and a "service economy" (being global prostitutes) was supposed to the future and that "cheep imported goods were good for America". .

NAFTA and CAFTA have nothing to do with Chinese, Japanese and Korean imports and exports of jobs to those countries. Its the erroneous belief by most of our recent Presidents AND congress that cheap goods were good for us. NAFTA actually did more damage to the Mexican economy than ours. CAFTA was supposed to a trade agreement among the Central American countries only because they have somewhat equivalent economies. We (the U.S.A) bullied our way into it uninvited. As a result most of Central America does not in reality support CAFTA even though they agreed to it. NAFTA did not really change trade with Canada either except for large multi-nationals.

In Mexico NAFTA wrecked the agricultural economy by dumping US government supported agricultural products and putting thousands of Mexican farmers and farm workers out of business. This in turn increased the influx of Mexicans looking for work in the US (which corporate Ameican loves as it keeps labor rates low). The loss of farm jobs in Mexico has also been attributed to the establishment of drug lords as the most powerful force in much of that country.

Don't give me grief about Clinton, I supported Ross Perot. He might not have lasted long if elected but he understood the folly of sending jobs overseas. Imagine if we had 20 years of restraint in importing goods and keeping jobs at home. . .
- guru - Monday, 07/12/10 18:19:27 EDT

So, uh... how abou them Republicans pretending to care about oily pelicans? Heh heh..... Is this thing on?
- Nippulini - Monday, 07/12/10 18:54:43 EDT

comic relief: i like rainbows too, but...
this guy's hardcore
- Tyler Murch - Monday, 07/12/10 20:46:51 EDT

Can you imagine this guy if something really emotionally moving happens in his life. . . I don't want to be there.
- guru - Monday, 07/12/10 21:02:48 EDT

"Cheap imported goods...": The only ones that has been good for has been the 1% or so of the VERY WEALTHEY that control too many industries.
They continue to line their personal pockets at the expense of the American peoples future.
There is just something very sinister going on behind the scene that is the driving force behind all the B.S. going on all over the world.
It is not the acquisition of wealth or power that are the only things motivating these people. WHO would sell out the stability of the entire human race for what ever the end goal of this massive effort is.
Label me a "whatever" for talking like this here but, most everybody will come to realize that there are already too many people on the planet.
Anyone that says we are at a sustainable population is just deluding themselves.
It will be crashing down on us in our life time ( I give it a MAX of twenty years)
We have not even begun to look for energy and food resources from a point of desperation to feed our family. I don't mean as a means of income either. I mean "the children are starving and a bunch of us are going on a raid to the next town to steal some food. Hope we don't have to kill anyone this time..."
You know what? The heck with it! I'm not even going to waist my time on a rant that ultimately will do nothing but make me angry and depressed.
Good night gentleman.
- merl - Monday, 07/12/10 23:05:58 EDT

oily pelicans: Hey Nip, we got plenty of pelicans right here in Wisconsin that look fine to me!
Almost every time I go over the lake Butte des Mortes bridge on the way to work I see a flock of 20-30 white pelicans on the water. They must like it here. Last year when they showed up they were an anomily. Now they're just part of the summer sceanery.
- merl - Monday, 07/12/10 23:14:32 EDT

climate change.. all kinds of birds are showing up further north than they ever have before
- Tyler Murch - Monday, 07/12/10 23:51:38 EDT

ignorant American frogs...: "When they came for the Jews, I did nothing. I'm not a Jew, what do I care of their plight."
"When they came for the people of color and different ethnic back ground than mine, I did nothing. They aren't after me, what do I care of their plight."
"When they came for the political reformers and educators, clergymen and other "rabble rousers", I did nothing. I'm not one of those kind of people, what do I care of their plight."
"Then one day they came for my land. I asked them what do they want it for and they said it was none of my concern, just leave now. How will I feed my family I asked. Not our problem, they told me. So, we left. You have to do what they tell you.
Right?
"Then one day they came for my children. When I asked why, they said it was for their own good.
When I asked if I could go with my children they said no, they could take better care of them than I could. I wasn't so sure about this but, what could I do, right?"
Then one day they came for me. I asked "What have I done?" They said "We don't have to tell you, just come with us."
I said "I don't like this, I'm going to protest it."
They said,"You no longer have that right. Come with us."
I said," I will not go. I'll call my friends and neighbors together and we will fight you!"
They laughed and said,"Look around you fool, you are all alone! There is no one left to help you!"
As they took me away I looked around and saw they were right. The few scrabbling bits of humanity I saw were too busy scratching and begging for their next meal to be concerned with me...


( an adaptation from something I read once)
Frogs are more than content to sit in a pot of water that is ever so slowly made hotter and hotter until the frog is boiled to death...
- merl - Tuesday, 07/13/10 00:03:16 EDT

Guru, I knew I could count on you for some good facts.
- Smelling Burnt Coal - Tuesday, 07/13/10 01:04:57 EDT

Those supposed mystery conspiracies:
Watch the documentary "The Future of Food" currently on Hulu if you want to know about those "mysterious forces". There is nothing mysterious about them, it is simply huge mega corporations trying to dominate entire segments of the economy. In this case it is Monsanto with the help of our government trying to control all food crops (from seeds to weeds).

There are three things with NO moral compulsions, forces of nature, machinery and corporations. Every one will kill or maim you for no reason at all and with no conscious thought about anything, much less morality such as the sanctity of life or human rights. The most dangerous is the big corporation. They will take everything you own and hold dear (Like in the "American Frog" above.), possibly torturing you in the process BEFORE they kill you.

Government can be a fourth force but it often destroys with the moral imperative of a leader or the public. This can be worse than the moralless corporation.
- guru - Tuesday, 07/13/10 04:09:41 EDT

i've seen a few good docs on the subject on public television.. i figured the name monsanto would come up... serious business
- Tyler Murch - Tuesday, 07/13/10 05:06:15 EDT

"American Frogs": In retrospect, I think I may have made a post that really doesn't belong on a family oriented forum and web site such as Anvilfire.
The "food conspiracies" are real and very much on my mind but, I'm not sure I would want to read about it on a blacksmithing web site.
I would also hate to see this degenerate into the near name calling pissing match that that the BSA question did...
I would not be offended if the Guru opted to take the post down.
- merl - Tuesday, 07/13/10 10:42:52 EDT

Merl, I think it's fine. No matter what our political views, we all need to wake up and really look around.

When Monsanto can sue a farmer for patent infringement when his corn got tainted with some windblown pollen from a neighbor's field, you know there's something seriously wrong. Oh, and Monsanto won. They are playing for keeps, and for them "keeps" means every living thing must be owned by them. Including us.

Guess who was behind the move to make it legal to patent life forms 25 years ago? If you have ever eaten any genetically modified crops covered by a Monsanto patent (and if you have eaten anything made from corn or soy in the last 20 years you have), case law on their patent suits to date are leading to the eventual conclusion that they have a legal claim to your body. The 13th amendment to the Constitution is the only thing stopping them for now. Someday they'll probably start trying to enforce that.
Alan-L - Tuesday, 07/13/10 12:10:36 EDT

Patents, The Future of Food: The really disturbing thing is the rules on plant patents have let companies patent ANY natural plant that has not previously been patented. In the past you could not patent anything that previously existed or was commonly know by those familiar to the field. This was known as "prior art". Now the patent office lets companies patent anything that was not previously patented. This has caused havoc in the software industry when companies patented common algorithms or ideas and then sued everyone in the industry. By the current rules you could patent A+B=c or 1+2=3. . . If the algorithm is complicated enough OR you can obfuscate the facts sufficiently enough to confuse a judge and jury (which is not hard on technical issues - quote an O.J. SImpson jury member, "We did not believe the DOA evidence"), then you can get large awards in court for patent infringement for something you did not invent or actually own.

These kind of machinations are part of the deregulation of our economy that Republicans think is a GOOD thing. . . While over regulation IS a problem there must also be common sense rules that prevent evil amoral corporations from running amuck by supporting their thievery by rule of law. Monopoly laws are now a joke and the results can be a very serious problem to our freedoms as well as our economy.

Imagine if I discovered there was no old preexisting patent on the common gas forge burner (there are probably dozens but for an example lets assume it is so basic the patent office previously disallowed it). I could patent the basic burner principal, then sue the few manufacturers there are and either demand a license fee per unit OR put them out of business so that EVERYONE would have to but forges from ME alone. Then I could sue individuals that were using old forges OR who had built their own. Now, while this sounds ludicris and not very profitable I COULD make a lot of money from the largest users in industry. . .

OR how about if I patent "The Chair". You don't sue everyone using chairs but you start at the TOP with the largest furniture manufacturers. OR you start with imports because it is very easy to get customs to impound products that infringe on a patent. THEN you extort money from the importers so they do not lose their investment. You take THAT money and sue the domestic manufacturers one at a time. . . then go for the largest public places that have seating. . . and so on. At a couple dollars a seat I would rapidly be VERY VERY rich.

If this sounds bizarre, well it IS. But it has happened and is happening TODAY.

According to Monsanto's logic and court decisions in their favor in multiple countries IF they were to come up with a cure for the common cold and it was administered as a virus that created antibodies in a persons system and YOU caught the "cure" in a public place from a person under treatment then YOU would owe Monsanto for the cure even though you did not ask for it and did not want it.

In an actual case GM corn designed to create a swine enzyme cross pollinated with soybeans. These are two species of plant that never interact but the genetic modifications allowed it to happen. Thousands of acres of soy beans had to be destroyed. . .

I had never paid much mind to this in the past and wondered why all the hub-bub about GM products in other countries was such a big deal. IT IS a big deal and the mad scientists are out of control.

- guru - Tuesday, 07/13/10 13:37:18 EDT

"you would owe Monsanto for the cure...": Like my man Hank says," I got a shotgun, rifle and a four-wheel drive and a country boy can survive..."

Let "MonSatan" try and come to colect from me.
I got the "cure" for that s**t.

What scares me the most about GMO's is what they THINK they know about them.
No one can guess the far reaching effects of the genetic modifications to future populations.
It's not all about the money or the power and controle. Some missguided, and maybe originaly well meaning person somewere started this in the name of saveing humanity from its self and it has turned into someone playing God.
That person will get theirs in the end but, I'm afraid we all will too.
Sitting passivly by in the pot of water while someone slowly turns up the heat will get us cooked and eaten for dinner and, we would deserve no better...
Guru , the points you make about patents is also very scary and quite true.
I seem to remember the big flap about the guy that tried to patent the wheel barrow some years back.
I think he almost or, did actualy, win the patent rights and set the hadware industry on its ear.
It just goes to show you what someone that is too lazy to do a good days work will go though to make a living.
- merl - Tuesday, 07/13/10 15:28:03 EDT

The patent problem: is that the patent office used to protect the public from such follies. They had rules. You could not patent nature (for everyone's protection), you could not patent a perpetual motion machine (the laws of physics cannot be broken and it was deemed a waste of the office's time) and you could not patent prior art or something obvious to anyone in the field.

Part of the problem at the patent office is that they are now a "fee funded government office". They are no longer funded by congress. The patentee's pay for the application, reproduction and MAINTENANCE of the patent records AND employee salaries. The result is there is now pressure to issue MORE patents, especially to big corporations who write LONG patents (the fees are per page) and pay to maintain them to the END of their life. There is also a tendency to let the "market" sort out overlapping patents (IE in the courts where the guy with the most money almost always wins.) The process in not nearly as careful as it was 25 years ago and it benefits the big companies even more than ever.
- guru - Tuesday, 07/13/10 15:43:19 EDT

unwanted cross field pollination : Let's take a look at this for a moment.
If MonSatan wants to sue me for "unlicensed production" of their GMO's due to cross border pollination then I guess I will have to sue them for tress passing and destruction of privet property, willful damage to crops and lands, loss of income and livelihood and, although it may be a stretch, I'll have to consider ecological terrorism and the mental and physical stress incurred from dealing with the aforementioned...
It sound ridiculous but I'll bet all I have to do is make sure my land is properly posted against the above and probably send copies of the same postings to the offending parties BEFOR the current crop season and I'm probably covered. Now it is up to them to comply with the lawful conditions of MY property ownership.
By the way, I would seek damages on a per occurrence basis so at a typical seed population of several thousand per acre times the number of acres "infected" I might have them thinking twice about trying to collect from me.
- merl - Tuesday, 07/13/10 15:52:47 EDT

Merl, that's been tried and didn't work. You have no chance when the other party owns the courts.
Alan-L - Tuesday, 07/13/10 16:41:33 EDT

Merl; you've been holding out on us! You didn't tell us you were a billionaire that could afford to pay millions in legal fees waiting for a court to finally rule in your favor!

My father once told me "Never sue anyone that doesn't have any money---you will just waste your own money even if you win!" Nowadays you have to put in "never sue anyone who can out wait and out spend your legal team"

The deck is stacked in favor of the "big guns!".

On the history of Patent Law: England had a similiar situation once which is why the first steam engines had a planetary gear system---someone had patented the "crank" even though it was demonstrably over 800 years old at the time and the fee to use it was too high.

Thomas
Thomas P - Tuesday, 07/13/10 16:45:33 EDT

law: Yup. Exxon didn't pay up for over 20 years after their big Alaska spill. Shipwreck was in 1989, damages paid in 2009. Liberal or Conservative (SO 20th century) pretty much doesn't matter any more as the options espoused by both philosophies are being eclipsed by the far more powerful wishes of the largest and richest corporations. I curse the short term political game that has brought us low.
Judson Yaggy - Tuesday, 07/13/10 19:55:29 EDT

so sue me...: "I'm not a billionaire in real life but, I play one on the Internet..."

Go a head, sue me. I've got nothing worth having that the bank doesn't already own so they can try and get their your money from them.
Try and mess with my family and you'll wish you hadn't been born.
Simple facts of life were I'm from. Heck, a few years back someone reported on a few gus that had stolen some extention cords from work. They found that guy in a pulp wood prossesing vat at the paper mill they worked at.

I suppose the only one I could sue according to my own statement above would be my neighbor that planted the stuff.
Probably the only one MonSatan could really sue would also be my neighbor because my land was clearly posted and he failed to keep the pollen within the confines of his land...
Doesn't this sound like the dumbest thing yet??
This sounds like the bunch that collected 500,000 "Pepsi points" and demanded their Harrier jet prize from Pepsi Co. and then sued when Pepsi was not forthcoming.
I think, as the judge in the case, I would have locked everybody up for 30 days on a charge of contempt of court for bringing such a clear nuisance case before me.
Forgive me for being so nieave but, I still believe the law and the courts are for everyone. Now if I could find a jury that had a thimble full of brains between them and was not so easily impressed by the prosecutions use of "ten dollar words" and technobabble along with their false display of shock and dismay, I might have something.
- merl - Tuesday, 07/13/10 22:51:42 EDT

Patrick Nowak: A note on the juries: Last friday while eating lunch I overheard another patron of the restraunt recounting her experience as a juror. In one particular case, she said that the jury was fairly evenly split men on one side/women on the other. Deliberations went late into the night. This juror took a break to use the restroom and when she returned she said that all the other women had changed their position to not guilty not becuase of a new understanding of the evidence but simply because they wanted to go home. The lady telling the story was appalled and wouldn't change her vote, so the jury was considered "hung" and the defendant re-tried. I don't know how the second trial turned out, but the point is that juries do not necessarily consider the evidence. That is scary.
Patrick Nowak - Wednesday, 07/14/10 09:35:15 EDT

Nip did you see the new billboard with your buddy Obama? Compares Hitler, Lenin and Obama. What will they thin of next?
- Smelling Burnt Coal - Wednesday, 07/14/10 10:51:48 EDT

Juries and Evidence, Money in the Courts:
As the O.J. trial proved to most of the world if you can select enough people of low intellect and then confuse them with the evidence and "expert" testimony you can get a decision completely different than what is obvious to intelligent logical people.

Good logic is one of those things few people can apply to complicated sets of facts and the more technical the evidence the more difficult to sort out. Most judges are not educated to understand highly technical scientific issues either.

I've personally been involved in a couple jury trials and the lawyers warned us that juries can be completely unpredictable and illogical. They are often swayed by emotion or politics despite the evidence. Thus many huge damage awards when legal libility was not clear such as the McDonalds hot coffee case (which was later reduced on appeal - the woman got NO money, but her lawyers did).

Then there is how the evidence is presented. All the scientists supporting the U.S. super collider project kept talking about advancing science and finding the origins of the Universe. But the most important person they were trying to convince, Ronald Reagan, was a creationist who believed the literal words of the biblical story of creation. He did not need a bunch of atheist scientists to spend billions to tell him what he already knew. . . BUT, if they had lied and said it would give us a super weapon to use against the "godless Communists" of the U.S.S.R. then the scientific world would be traveling to Texas rather than Geneva and our economy would be better for it.

Many big corporate suits against little guys are known as "slap suits". The corporation may have no grounds but they know that they can swamp you with legal paperwork that must be addressed at your expense. They have a dozen salaried lawyers file papers that you individual lawyer (if you can afford one) has to respond to. When this happens your lawyer will probably tell you to settle because you cannot win.

When YOU sue the mega corporation the same thing happens but they have another huge advantage, corporations are virtually immortal and know that if they stall long enough you and your heirs will die, run out of money or quit to get on with life.

Every corporate board member and every corporate lawyer knows that they can out wait you. While they move on, the corporation lives forever and you do not. This is a sad fact of the legal system. This is not David vs. Goliath it is man vs. the gods . . .
- guru - Wednesday, 07/14/10 11:24:02 EDT

I was amazed when I was picked for a serious jury trial as with my scientific background I had been told I would not be a defending layers choice. It was a serious trial: Murder 1, Murder 2, Rape, Kidnapping, car theft and tampering with evidence.

Turns out the fact I was new to the community and so not aware of the original publicity and even more important not related to anyone in the case trumped my educational background. They called up a very large pool---4 times the normal pool and were were withing a couple of people not being able to seat a jury!

I was amazed at how clean the trial went---judge was very careful to have the jury recess before any discussions with the lawyers went on---we got our exercise!

During deliberations I got to see how people can mess up the evidence provided but we did convict. I'm glad it wasn't a capital case as most of the witnesses were not very impressive---a lady putting herself through nursing school by selling drugs was one of the *best* ones.

Thomas
Thomas P - Wednesday, 07/14/10 13:21:58 EDT

I was called to the "Grand Jury" one time. We heard the evidence in a dozen cases and simply had to agree if there was sufficient evidence to go to trial. We were finished before 1 PM.

All the stuff we heard was just local folks doing stupid things. Mostly driving drunk. One guy crash into another car in an intersection then ran off leaving his "best friend" injured in the car. The person he hit was one of several witnesses. She was stuck in her car and called 911 from her cell phone. They arrested the guy on his front porch drinking. . . his defense was that he wasn't there. . .

Then there was the petty theft that looked into the security camera before he knocked it off the wall. . .

It was a humorous morning. A bunch of folks going for the Darwin Award.
- guru - Wednesday, 07/14/10 14:45:24 EDT

Hitler, Lenin and Obama: Just for the record, my little rant about "Them" coming to get me, has nothing to do with the present administration or any past administration for that matter.
I'm putting the responsibility for this mess squarely on the people of this nation and the world for allowing it to happen and to continue through turning a blind eye to it and, just plain ignorance.
The attitude of "Well, as long as I've got my soda and fast foods, big screen hi def tv and 1000 channel satellite, cell phone and instant accident text messaging. I don't care what happens if it's not on facebook or twitter..."


BTW Thomas, in recognition of the Finder/Scrounger comic commissioned in you honer I wanted to let you know I had a particularly rewarding couple of finds at the town dump yesterday.

Item 1: a 3T floor jack in nearly new condition that only needed some oil and a little air bleeding (it's under the tractor doing a 24hr load test right now)

Item 2: a NOS all metal window/box fan. The poor old guy that dropped it off said "It works fine but, the wife just wants it out of the house!"

Item 3: (I've been waiting for this one all summer.)
A golf bag to go along with the two wheel golf bag cart I use to haul around the axe, loping shears, Army issue machete, and hand forged grass/weed flail when I cut brush around the buildings.
The bag is actually quite nice, made in the U.S., Cordura(TM)with a metal frame. Plenty of extra pockets for a file and sharpening stone, a bottle of Tordon for unwanted trees, water bottle and wasp spray, probably even a few adult bevies' if I were so inclined.
With all the rain we've had the tomatoes are nearly as tall as me and averageing a dozen fruit per "tree"
At least they won't run me out of tomatoe juice this year...
- merl - Wednesday, 07/14/10 14:46:03 EDT

Merl, ain't that the truth...most sensible thing i have heard stated
- Smelling Burnt Coal - Wednesday, 07/14/10 15:44:05 EDT

Jurors: When I think back on my only experience with a jury, I hope my fate never lies in the hands of one. It was a medical malpractice case. The verdict could have been reached after the first fifteen minutes of testimony. We had to endure 4 1/2 days of it. We were sent to the jury room about 1p.m.. I was elected foreman. Ten of us agreed on a not guilty verdict. Two ignorant jurors wanted review the evidence. About 6 p.m., I had had enough. I told the two,"I see no reason to review the evidence. I don't understand all the medical terms and neither do you. The so called victim is sitting out there healthy as a horse. My mind is maid up. You can agree with me and go home, or sit here all night. You decide." We took another vote. 12-0. Not guilty. I hope my fate never lies with such jurors as the two who felt so empowered that day, and were so easily swayed.
Donnie - Wednesday, 07/14/10 16:55:53 EDT

Merl; just sit tight and we'll be over to pick you up as soon as possible---OBTW could you palletize your shop tools first?

Thomas
Thomas P - Wednesday, 07/14/10 17:29:45 EDT

Umm, OK Thomas, I'll be waiting.
May I know where we are going?
Can I have the window seat?
Will lunch be provided?
May I bring a carry on?
If you want to get it all in one load you'd better bring a semi trailer...
- merl - Wednesday, 07/14/10 20:01:25 EDT

Vote Monarchist!: Tired of the chaos of a republic? Do you find democracy slow and inefficient? Are parliamentary and legislative and judicial systems just plain bothersome?

Well: Vote Monarchist and...

...you'll never have to vote again.

...you'll know where your family is, because WE know where your family is.

...the trains will run on time, and if they don't, just sit down and shut up; it will get there when we get it there.

...you will get clear-cut judicial decisions according to how we feel that day, and whether we think your head is worth keeping on your shoulders.

...we get lower taxes for the aristocracy and royal family, and lower taxes for the rest of you if we run out of neat stuff to do with the tax money.

...your taxes will be collected in an efficient manner; or else.

...you may enjoy the benefit of universal military service when we perceive the need for it. Full employment!

...should you survive in the military service long enough to retire, the king will issue you a license to beg; no more waiting on VA benefits. (This was actually done by the enlightened monarch Frederick the Great of Prussia.)

...all decisions will be both arbitrary and capricious by nature; no more annoying bidder protest by contractors. You can't protest without a head.

...you get new and amusing taxes on windows, chimneys, wool, iron, lead, booze, salt and as many commodities as we can think of.

...free speech against the policies and whim of the monarchy will be discouraged with a hot skewer through the tongue. Repeat offences will be dealt with harshly.

I could go on of course, but you see the advantages, so please, when the elections come up, vote Monarchist; or better yet, don't vote at all!

Atli: Descendant of an infamous regicide and one of the founder of the Monarchist Party at the University of Maryland, which actually (eventually) took over the student government! (Check on Wikipedia)
Bruce Blackistone (Atli) - Wednesday, 07/14/10 22:35:47 EDT

"At least we know the previous presidents were actually citizens and they didn't need wackidoo czars...LOL" smelling.. 07/12/10 11:07:06 EDT

Maybe you should open a book, or even take a look at Wikipedia, rather than the mentally ill Glen Beck.
But why would you want to believe socialist, liberal FACTS?
- Dave Leppo - Thursday, 07/15/10 07:33:27 EDT

U.S. Politics: Our economic woes and political crisis (two unwinnable wars that just make us look worse in the eyes of the world while increasing fuel prices rather than decreasing them. . ) is situated firmly on BOTH sides of our established two party system. When it comes to GREED, malfeasance and self serving actions ALL the "professional" politicians in congress are equally at fault.

While we point at the graft of payola in Mexico and Central America and other places that is everywhere and on the surface, we have a much more subtle system where the big payoffs for politicians are cushy multi-million dollar jobs in the industries they benefited in office. . . or organized speaking tours.

For a long time I have been a believer that the majority of the highest political offices should be filled by a lottery system. I think the average person in the U.S. would be a MUCH better leader than the low lifes we have in office. At LEAST they would start out not owing major corporations political favors.

Even institutions like the supreme court could use some common sense from common people that understand that the principals of our constitution need NO interpretation. Our constitution is not like much of the bible and written in stories and parables to make you think about the issues. It is more like the ten commandments that are absolute and not open to discussion. Thou shall not kill, steal or adulter are pretty clear statements as are not infringing on anyone's rights no matter what their gender or belief system.

If you don't think this is true, consider our local government and the people you most often come in contact with. How many times have you felt you needed to bribe a police officer to avoid an abuse of power? How many times have you had to bribe a bureaucrat to get them to do their job? In many countries paying these folks under the table is a common ritual. However, in the U.S. the vast majority of these people are honest and WE do not expect bribery to be a part of the system. BUT we allow it in the highest of offices.

Generally in organizations such as government when you have crooks at the top you have crooks at the bottom because the top is setting the example. But in our case the PEOPLE would not stand for the kind of petty graft that goes on at the lowest levels everywhere in Mexico. But we DO allow it in those high places that the people rarely deal directly.

Toss them out (Congress and the President). Replace them randomly and we would have a better system serving the people.
- guru - Thursday, 07/15/10 10:24:41 EDT

When I turn over to these nuts on AM radio, i hear how our country took this horrible nose dive on or right before Jan 20, 2010. I really don't see it. is there ergot in that tea?
- Dave Leppo - Thursday, 07/15/10 10:52:38 EDT

Guru, I like your lottery system idea. Leppo you on the wild turkey again?
- Smelling Burnt Coal - Thursday, 07/15/10 11:21:53 EDT

Democracy: your vote counts!

Feudalism: your count votes!

I expect that our government will swing from one side to the other quite wildly for a while till most folks get tired and we we choose "middle of the road" again (for a while).

I'm disappointed that so may folks are trying "the big lie" tactics and trying to distract people from things that actually matter (happening on both sides of the fence BTW)

Personally I'd like a multi party system where folks would have to do coalitions to get into power and I'm all in favour of gridlock in Congress!

As Will Rogers said: "Some folks are complaining that we are not getting all the Government we are paying for---but I say 'Thank God!'"

Of course none of this is very new---read the original Gulliver's travels with their satire on politics of the time; not to mention even the ancient greeks wrote on what "perfect" governments would be like.

Thomas
Thomas P - Thursday, 07/15/10 12:20:58 EDT

The lottery was not my idea. Others came up with it many years ago. In Issac Asimov's version the person that won the 4 year presidential lottery was interviewed for several days and the results were used by a machine (AI computer) that would make all the actual decisions based on the information gleaned from the human.

Others have written similar stories.
- guru - Thursday, 07/15/10 14:55:36 EDT

in tea?? oh it will do much better w/ a few alterations and laid on paper ;)..
- Tyler Murch - Thursday, 07/15/10 20:43:25 EDT

anvils ring/hammer's blow: I have been growing increasly bored with the Anvil's Ring and Hammer's Blow publications over the years. It seems to always be the same old thing. The ring seems to cater to an elite wealthy sculptor, welder, artisan and client. The blow has become so remedial with basic articles how to use a file and articles and pictures about wearing safety glasses. I know this is all important stuff, but it is just getting boring. Maybe all the old timers are dead now and interesting traditional craftsman techniques are not in such favor? Don't get me wrong I still see some craft and old methods, but to much being directed to the millionaire client. Lets face it only so many art/craftmans can fill that niche. I know their is no right or wrong opinions and it depends on the individual and what they looking to get out of these publications. I realize the people who put them together do a great job and work hard. For me it is lacking luster. Over the years the paper, graphics and pictures have greatly improved with technology, but it really lacks something and I can't put my finger on it. The old issues still excite me, but these prettier ones don't. What is it? Have I lost my last marble...wait don't answer that one. I am positive I don't know all there is to know, so that can't be it. I also am sick to death of looking at fly presses and power hammers in the ring photos...does anyone use an anvil, hammer or helper and sledge anymore? maybe I am not being fair and just to the publications. I don't know.
- knucklehead - Friday, 07/16/10 00:03:21 EDT

ABANA Publications:
The problem has been the same for a very long time. Some is political, some is financial.

The articles are supposed to be written by members or donated. But very rarely do sufficient articles get donated so the editor or editors must fill in the slack. So they write what they know and it can get boring unless you have a VERY talented editor. Back when George Dixon was the Hammer's Blow editor it was full of his beautiful pencil drawings. He is a very creative fellow and a fine artist and made the publication. The folks at the Blacksmiths Journal ran the ABANA office and were AR editors as well. They also provided much of the content. An editor is supposed to organize, layout, make minor edits, write an editorial. . . but not the entire publication.

The problem is largely lack of money. With lots of money you can afford to solicit articles, travel to do interviews, take photographs. . .

This year was the first ABANA conference I did not cover for anvilfire in some manner. I've been ill and had no money to offer for photos or to pay someone else to go. Doing these things are NOT cheap. In 1998 I spent nearly $3000 of my own money to attend the conference, was charged full rate by ABANA for myself AND a helper, then spent all my time with the JunkYard Hammers, which was NOT my plan. In 2000 we had to fly 2,000 miles to Flagstaff (I paid for two of us) but had talked ABANA into giving us a break. We had huge technical difficulties and no money to dig our way out of it on top of jet lag and altitude sickness. We skipped the next conference but I paid several hundred dollars for photos. At the Kentucky conference we were lucky and sponsored by the new Big BLU Hammer company. Even so, I still had $1000 in expenses. Big BLU had HUGE expenses paying full rate to get about 10 workers into the conference (plus all the ancillary expenses). At many events I took assistants so we could cover more, share driving and so on. . . I cannot afford a full time helper, but to do the things I've wanted to do for the past 10 years I've needed one.

So consider you are an ABANA editor. You get no mileage allowance, no pay for going to shows (no assistants). I knew one editor that went to every conference and MANY of the regional conferences to report on them for the Anvils Ring. It was all out of HIS pocket. . . There are at least four regional conferences every year that should be reported on plus international conferences. Take the average cost of traveling to these events and you can easily spend $10,000 to $15,000 every year just trying to cover the major events. . . THEN you have to spend a couple weeks writing and editing. Our major online articles with mostly images took me two to three weeks to set up after returning from the event. You could call this expense, or not. . . but it is part of the whole.

NOMMA has a much better publication but membership dues are around $300 year. They attract higher dollar advertisers and have a much larger budget. Thus the publication is much better.

I never understood the two publications routine. It costs more and splits content that should all be in ONE publication. Organizational politics. . . It will try to do you in every time. Been there.
- guru - Friday, 07/16/10 00:52:28 EDT

Guru, that makes so much sense. I can see now the editor's are trying hard and it isn't their fault they are doing the best with what they have. Mr. Dixon's drawing were always enjoyable along with his articles because of his knowledge base. The out of pocket expense I understand from experience as well and the lack of contributors indeed makes the job harder for editors. At least I have a better appreciation now for what is being done, though it isn't ideal.
- knucklehead - Friday, 07/16/10 11:27:42 EDT

There were some early editors (like the board members) who had a lot of passion for the art and put everything into it. Today the editors publish more than one publication and cannot be too obsessive about one subject. . So that makes a big difference as well.
- guru - Friday, 07/16/10 12:11:23 EDT

I am a complete idiot. I bought a new scooter and had a little issue and tried to trouble shoot it as I thought it to be simple. Both nuts on my rear wheels were loose and I thought this would be the clunking noise. I tightened them...not it. I spoke with the girl at the call center and she talked to tech since I still had a clunk. She told me what to do. i found some suspension nuts loose and had my helper put the rear end up in the air and checked the unit without wheel on to make sure the transaxle and brake were o.k. It seemed fine. I found three axle mount bolts loose and tightened them. Upon putting it back I still have a significant clunk and figure it just must be normal suspension noise. i called the call center to ask the girl to ask tech if this is still normal before trucking it for repair. The executive manager got on the phone and went crazy on me she wouldn't let me ask a single question or talk to a cs person. Apparently it is wrong to call the cs folks and they can't help the customer. She demanded to know who i talked to and told me she would trace it through my phone number. All i could tell her is my lug nut on each wheel was loose from factory and I tightened it. I was iinformed I voided the warrenty...dumby I am and should not have said anything. She went totally psycho on me for calling the 800 number and i understand now it is very wrong to ask for any assitance. We had words as she bated me to nicely tell her about her behavior. since she was so off the wall i hung up and tried calling back to speak with someone else who was friendly. she told every girl in the cs department to hang up or forward me to her voice mail. I spoke with the operator and could tell she was standing next to her. I was wrong for calling and being so kind and asking a question on my second new scooter I have purchased in five years. The call center was in a big city and I realize this has allot to do with it. What is wrong with America today i think i got a clear picture. I am so tired of being beat up on for no reason. I am considering ending it all as i no longer want to talk to or see anyone.
- knucklehead - Friday, 07/16/10 22:11:44 EDT

Service Issues:
Sounds like you have a good law suit to me. Wheel lugs are a customer service item. If you have a flat, you remove the wheel, OR have ANY time repair or service station remove the wheel and repair the tire.

But. . loose bolts on a NEW machine may be a warranty issue, especially if there are more. This should have been taken to whomever sold the machine in the first place. But tightening wheel lugs is your responsibility before riding IF they are loose and CANNOT void your warranty.

Bullying the consumer is wrong AND will get someone fired if you get the RIGHT person at the right level.

If the customer service number is the only contact you have with the company then you need to go to the Better Business Bureau OR any other local consumer complaint organization you can find. I would write a letter to company and send multiple copies addressed to the chairman of the board and ANY other address or officer they have listed on their web site. If you know the city their headquarters is located in I would send a copy of the letter to the local newspaper editor, the BBB in that city, the state's prosecutor and ANYONE else you can find (your congress people AND the congressional members of the state where the business is located).

You would be surprised at the results a letter writing campaign can produce IF you send enough letters to enough people in high places. It only takes ONE to get through to the right person.

Be sure to write a clear concise letter and not use any foul language. State the facts as best as you know them. Be sure to type your full name AND hand sign every copy you send out. People, such as a newspaper who might help you must have your real name and a signature (as well as a phone number or other contact information).
- guru - Saturday, 07/17/10 01:00:15 EDT

Customer Service Issues II:
In this era of email and electronic communication it is tempting to send an email in a case like this. However, hard copy letters still carry more weight. It helps to do both. OR if you do not get a response to e-mail in a couple days start mailing letters. Be sure to keep copies with addresses of every one you send out.

More about the warranty. Most expensive things have a written warranty that includes all kinds of exclusions and caveats. BUT many exclusions are voided by state law in various states. Most states have fairly strict consumer protection laws and many give you much greater protection than the manufacturers warranty which may try to get out of everything possible. Your state probably had a consumer protection area on their web site. Check into it, ask questions.
- guru - Saturday, 07/17/10 01:11:01 EDT

Hi Guru, Thanks for the advise and direction. Normally I don't like to make waves with companies, but this treatment really brought me down to a bad place and I think I need to pursue it with the letters you mentioned. all I wanted was one questioned heard and answered and I stepped right in it. I know I am a knucklehead, but geez...
- knucklehead - Saturday, 07/17/10 02:02:07 EDT

Warranties and blacksmithing mags: I had a client who got the run around from a centre dealing with extended warranties on a computer. I called and explained the situation to an extremely aggressive woman. I believe they are told or selected to be aggressive and NEVER admit liability. Anyway after some time I simply said we were getting nowhere and I was authorised by my client to isssue proceedings if she did not get a new computer. The following day they rang back to say they were sending out vouchers to the value of the new computer. So don't give in if you are in the right!

On blackmithing magazines how about a few of us with very specialised interests and knowledge writing an article each and submitting these to the magazines??
- philip in china - Saturday, 07/17/10 15:43:36 EDT

Writing and Print:
I write a lot. I've had illustrated articles published in NOMMA's Fabricator, Blacksmiths Gazzete, Locksmiths Digest and long form press releases in New Equipment Digest, PC Magazine, Byte Magazine, Machine Design and others. One of my first technical articles was published in a local paper about how to cure smoking fireplaces. Some of these publications have circulation of millions but most less down in the thousands.

Writing I do here has been read by more people and is easier to find. We serve anywhere from 1.5 to 2 million pages per month to over 5,000 people per month. Much broader readership than the Anvil's Ring.

With on-line publishing is also possible to update old articles with everything from new images to updating the text. Some popular anvilfire articles have been completely rewritten three times and will be rewritten again.

While I like books, and print is not completely dead I think many print publications are rapidly becoming irrelevant.

- guru - Sunday, 07/18/10 02:00:34 EDT

irrelevant print...: I agree with you Guru, I have seen a great decline in the number of new books puchased by our library system and the obviouse increase in electronic media.
It is really too bad too because I'm one of those people that greatly enjoys the physical nature of reading a book. I get almost no enjoyment from reading something from a computor, except beeing able to check in on some of my favorite web sites as often as I like and when I like.
When I want to sit and read something it is never on a laptop or any kind of electronic reader.
I know there are some things that do an admirable job of trying to mimick a book but,...
- merl - Sunday, 07/18/10 20:58:35 EDT

Books and Print: What I am tired of is the rehashing over and over of blacksmithing basics. There are some good technical aspects of the craft that could stand to be gone into in depth but not forging a point, making a twist. . . There is a place for some of this but not in print.
- guru - Sunday, 07/18/10 21:09:58 EDT

rehashing over and over...: Not to sound like a suck up but, I wholeheartedly agree with you on that one as well.
This is one of the things that compels me to check in here at Anvilfire as often as I do. It seems somebody always has a new question to ask on a new subject.
True anvilfire does get allot of repeat questions like many other sites but, at least they are not always from the same person asking the same question over and over.
One big problem I always find with the more advanced discussions is understanding some of the terminology used by the old pros that us newbies have no reference for.
Of course there is a glossary button I could push to try and look up a word but, I seldom think of that when caught up in an ongoing conversation here or in the Guru's den.
I imagine the ultimate help feature would be the ability to click on an unfamiliar word and see if it has a link to the glossary or has a definition some were on the site and then from there be taken to the Anvilcam video library for a video demo on that topic or word ect...

Isn't it just amazing how easy it is for someone to sit here and think up all kinds of new things for you to do?

This is what I like so much about books like "Practical Blacksmithing". Even though the book is written with allot of older terminology the accompanying line drawings are very good and easy to relate to the topic.
I for one do appreciate it when you include a drawing or photo to help make your explanations more clear. For me blacksmithing and metal working in general are a very precise craft and, very much an intuitive and instinctive pursuit at the same time.
You need to be able to walk in both worlds at the same time if you want to get good at it.
- merl - Sunday, 07/18/10 23:12:38 EDT

Quenchcrack: Hey QC I have a question for you.
What is it that causes crude oil to be under such high pressure under the ground?
- merl - Monday, 07/19/10 12:33:27 EDT

Anvil for sale: I saw an add in the Wisconsin State Farmer for "a Hay-Bud anvil in VERY good condition for $300."
That's all that was said in the add. I did not call to find out more but, I did find out that the guy is near Blackwolf, Wisconsin wich is just a few minuets South of Oshkosh
Phone: 920-235-0207
That's all I know. Just passing this on.
- merl - Monday, 07/19/10 15:02:02 EDT

Merl; I have a degree in Geology and worked in the oilpatch before; can I answer that question?

Stack say 8000' of rock on your foot and see if it exerts any pressure on it!

What causes more trouble are
- Thomas P - Monday, 07/19/10 15:57:12 EDT

More ThomasP, More!

Perhaps the natural gas, crushed by the same 8000' of rock, and heated by the Earths natural heat in the core may also explain.
ptree - Monday, 07/19/10 18:43:09 EDT

I'm not embarrassed to admit that I know next to nothing about the inner workings of this wonderful planet.
I was just reading the latest news blurb from the Gulf and got to wondering why we don't have naturally occurring oil gushers.
You would think with the stuff under that kind of pressure it would find its way to the surface eventually.
I suppose that oil deposits only form under the right conditions and one of those would be a solid enough layer of bed rock to keep it in place?
This is all truly fascinating but, I've been on the shed roof all day putting on steel panels and I'm dead tired. One more day tomorrow and it should be done.
PS Thomas, I'm still waiting for that ride to where ever it was...
- merl - Monday, 07/19/10 23:30:10 EDT

Merl,
i am no geologist, but i live 18 miles from the first oil spring discovered in the USA. It does make its way to the top. i don't know the ins and outs of this natural occurance.
- Reb - Tuesday, 07/20/10 00:12:56 EDT

Global warming....: Do you ever think that earth is a spinning ball and we keep extracting the oil. Might that be why it is starting to run hot?
- philip in china - Tuesday, 07/20/10 03:49:07 EDT

restoration project: Hello All,
I recently stumbled on to a BF forge and cleaned it up. I'm really interested in restoring it further and have posted some questions on the ABANA forums, but they dont seem to be active. can Ya'll point me to some possible resources or people in the northern Indiana area that might be able to help? Thanks in advance! John
Buffao forge forge
John DiFlauro - Tuesday, 07/20/10 06:44:01 EDT

Forge Restoration:
John, Looks like you done a nice job. What are your questions, someone here may be able to help. The catalog pages such as you have are about the last of the information on the products.

The remnants of Buffalo Forge are still in business as Buffalo Air Handling (or were) Buffalo Machinery exited a few years ago but not making blacksmith equipment. The last big push for these folks was in the 1950's when they were called upon to make hand crank blowers for bomb shelters. Nobody at either company had any interest in their history or could be of any help. Others have tried so don't bother.

On the road today - be back tomorrow.
- guru - Tuesday, 07/20/10 07:27:21 EDT

Well to have an "oil field" you need a source of oil, (properly cooked sediments containing the precursors), a method of containment (anticline, salt dome, fault zone, etc) and porosity so it can travel and get caught and flow when you poke a hole down to it.

Oil wells generally will flow on their own until the pressure is released and then require pumping---(remember the first Gulf War when the retreating Iraqis blew up so many wells to ruin the oil field by depressurizing it--and so require expensive pumping rather than cheap free flowing?)

Places where the oil can find the surface "naturally" do exist; but at the surface, the pressure is low and you end up with seeps and things like the La Brea Tar pits and the oil sands of Canada.

It was the pressence of oil seeping out that prompted them to drill for it at Spindletop.

Thomas
Thomas P - Tuesday, 07/20/10 12:55:06 EDT

Sometimes we have to leave that good junk behind: I was at the dump today and was really torn between wanting the "Holy Grail" of geekdom and respecting someones privacy.
A man was at the compactor pitching stuff in with more than a bit of anger. One of the guys that works there picked up a box in nearly new condition with great big colorful printing and pictures on it,"Atari 5200" !!
The worker opened the box to reveal a complete set of 5200 video game components in the original carton
with instruction manual and cartridges and, says to the guy, "Are you sure about this one?" "Hell yes !" the guy snaps back.
In the compactor it goes...
The way the guy was firing stuff in there he was pretty upset about something so all you can do is just grit your teeth and walk away.
Oh well, I guess that will just make the few remaining one out there worth that much more.

Thanks for the answer Thomas. Good stuff!
- merl - Tuesday, 07/20/10 14:06:01 EDT

Buffao forge forge : Sir,
Thanks for the reply, I kinda got the feeling about the company as I search the net. the catalog pages I found on ebay, mainly for reference. I'm not a blacksmith, more of Armorer; helms, and what not. though this is starting to gt very interesting! Would anyone have any pictures or references to this kind of forge? the best I can do on dating it is the motor. has a patent of 1913 on it, and still runs!sofar, the only thing replaced is the tube between the blower and firepit. I'd like to get a proper hood, side bar, and a rheostate for it. then Im not sure what Im going to do with it.
John DiFlauro - Tuesday, 07/20/10 20:13:00 EDT

John D.: You could forge some armor...
- Dave Boyer - Tuesday, 07/20/10 22:22:39 EDT

I am trying to find a college (preferably state run, there cheaper :lol:). I would like to find a college that has both a Metalurgical Science program (preferably to the PhD level) and a mechanical enginering program (double major). Does anyone know any place that offers both? It will be a bear to work that hard instead of partying, but hey it should be worth it. Or I am just telling myself that. Thanks a ton for the help guys!
- Bigfoot - Tuesday, 07/20/10 23:12:46 EDT

Buffao forge forge: Dave,
Thats exactly what I'm afraid of! but seriously, this forge is old and in good enough condition that I believe someone that is a blacksmith would appreciate it and use it more effectively than I could. and I have a smaller, more modern one that is cracked but salvageable that I planned on fixing to use with charcoal. (live dead in the city) this is more of a restoration but definately in working condition.
John DiFlauro - Wednesday, 07/21/10 06:48:21 EDT

BigFoot New Mexico Tech in Socorro NM Has Materials Engineering through PhD and Mechanical Engineering through MS; many folks tack on a math degree as well as undergrad is so math intensive it's only a couple more classes to pick it up too.

This is a small state school in a small town (around 10K when school is in session) You will work directly with your Professors and undergrad students often have paying jobs helping their research.

This is a tough "nerdy" school with a very good reputation! (it's on many a "best" list particularly for "value")

Note that you can take explosives engineering here as part of the ME degree.

(an added benefit is that if you're not a dweeb you can probably get forge time at my shop 5 miles away from the campus)

nmt.edu is their website and let me know if you are going to come visit the School, I work at the Very Large Array operations center that's on campus.

My daughter graduated from NMT last May with High Honors.

Thomas
Thomas P - Wednesday, 07/21/10 16:31:18 EDT

Forgot to mention; Albuquerque is the nearest "large" city and is about 1 hour north of Socorro straight up I25.

If you like hiking, rock climbing, skiing this is a great area.

If you want to be an anonymous cog in a massive college; may I suggest you try somewhere else, Ohio State in Columbus OH comes to mind...(one of my degrees is from OSU)

Thomas
Thomas P - Wednesday, 07/21/10 16:35:20 EDT

Dweebs...: Thomas,
from the little I know of bigfoot from here don't strike me as a dweeb...
Oh and thanks for looking after a couple internet friends of mine when they were having some car problems, they were saying what a nice person Mrs Powers is. :)
JimG - Wednesday, 07/21/10 19:09:52 EDT

We lived in Albuquerque from the spring of 77 till fall of 81. Our home was up near the foothills of the mountains (Monsanto's?). Almost no bugs, no humidity, very little snow, and the best professional enviornment I worked in my entire career (Sandia Labs). It was, hands down, my favorite place we lived. We moved there from St Louis and it took about a nanosecond to get used to it. Of course, the benefits here are kids and grand children, so it makes it a no contest for the current situation.

Anyone that has a chance to live in the desert Southwest has a great opportunity.
- Dave Hammer - Wednesday, 07/21/10 21:27:08 EDT

apple tree: Dave, The mountains are the Manzanos, meaning apple trees. Next to them are the Sandias (watermelons).
Frank Turley - Thursday, 07/22/10 10:42:05 EDT

Thomas, I am an Uber dweeb. Who else would shoot for a double major and a Phd? LOL Though I don't seem to come off as one. Do you know if they offer scholarships to out of state folks? Though it would probably be on their website. Thanks a ton for the tip!

The VLA is a massive radio telescope, right?
- bigfoot - Thursday, 07/22/10 13:27:23 EDT

Thomas, I am an uber dweeb. :D I just kow when to tone it down. So explosive engineering and math? sounds like my kind of place. As long as it isn't annoying algebra. (sigh). I am looking mostly right now at the colorado school of mines and MIT. Noted MIT may be aiming a bit high, but, hey its gonna be fun.

Is there a lot of partying at OSU? Its a bit annoying. My highschool right now is a crazy party school and its a bit hard to focus when you have hung over partiers passing out in class. LOL
bigfoot - Thursday, 07/22/10 13:42:19 EDT

sorry, double post. :( Anywho, any place not in new england is good for me! Except for UVM and anything in Maine.
bigfoot - Thursday, 07/22/10 13:48:08 EDT

Buffalo Machine is still in business in Lockport Ny, but they dont make forges or blowers- only ironworkers, rolls, drill presses and shears.
- ries - Thursday, 07/22/10 19:35:48 EDT

Ohio Sate is a BIG school think 5 times the population of Socorro NM just as *students*. It is located smack dab in the middle of Columbus OH and so has the vices and virtues of being in the "city". They used eminent domain to take over the seedy college town full of small mom&pop stores and have it bulldozed and replaced by chains---got rid of the small bars too (as well as used bookstores, gyros stores, used record stores, etc) and suddenly block kegger parties became the norm and when they went out of control they ended up on national news.

I can't say much about the partying as I was working more than full time, had an 100 year old house and a young family as well as getting another degree and so I was rather over booked to attend any parties.

MIT is quite expensive. (at least it was back when I applied in 1975) If you come out to visit the School of Mines, think about a visit to NMT we're 1 hour south of the Albuquerque airport on the interstate!

Take a look at this:
www.nmt.edu/news/3654-princeton-review-rates-tech-no-12-as-nations-best-value

Thomas
Thomas P - Thursday, 07/22/10 19:41:24 EDT

Ok, OSU doesn't sound my like my cuppa. That sounds a bit too much like my town. Last month somone whom I know decided to have a kegger in his back yard. Apperently some genius decided 'hey we have lots of gasoline! lets have a bonfire!' and proceded to light a couch on fire. However, I was not there so this is second hand.

This year (probably spring break or christmas vacation) I plan to go check out the school of mines, and if I can scrouge gas money (or talk my mom into coming) I would love to check out NMT. I have been recruited (letters have been sent to me after taking the PSATS and AP exams this year) by Worster Polytech and MIT already. Noted Im in the top 15% of my school (maybe even top 10%) but this is a school with a 70% or lower graduation rate. And I speak arabic (the art of controlled choking). Hopefully that will get me a good scholarship. Is there any good way to make money at NMT? I haven't found much on their website.
bigfoot - Thursday, 07/22/10 20:35:34 EDT

U of MO Science & Technology: Bigfoot, I'm originally from Missouri and as a kid, I visited what was then called the Rolla School of Mines. It is now the U of MO Science and Technology campus. Check out http://mse.mst.edu
Frank Turley - Thursday, 07/22/10 23:39:37 EDT

Lots of internal work-study jobs at NMT---you get paid for helping out professors doing research!

Town is a bit light; they usual retail and restaurant jobs all within biking distance of the campus.
Thomas P - Friday, 07/23/10 13:38:19 EDT

BTW we could probably put you up in our guest room; Or your parent(s) in the guest room and you on the couch if you make it down this way.

Many schools have a "stay overnight in a dorm program" but I've never asked at tech.

Thomas
Thomas P - Friday, 07/23/10 13:39:55 EDT

If it doesn't drop under 20 degrees at night, I have a tent. LOL NMT sounds like a great school all around. Just a bit toasty for my taste (anything above 70 is toasty for some of us new englanders). The only downside to this college searching is having to go to one that will give me a full scholarship or join the national guard.
bigfoot - Friday, 07/23/10 16:29:46 EDT

Humidity makes a big difference. 100 degF here at 8% humidity is a whole lot more comfortable than 80 degF and 96% humidity back in Ohio was.

Works in the winter too; when I interviewed out her the week before Christmas I was quite comfortable walking around in a long sleeve shirt in the sun---and then I noticed that a sprinkler was creating icicles every time it moved into the shade.

Thomas
Thomas P - Friday, 07/23/10 17:54:52 EDT

Jock,
We are interested in starting a forge group in SW VA.
and on checking the Blue Ridge Blacksmith Asoc. website it said that they had disbanded and the website was available.It said to contact Anvilfire for more information.
Greg S - Friday, 07/23/10 18:20:00 EDT

Greg - Mail coming your way.
- guru - Friday, 07/23/10 21:00:39 EDT

Thanks Jock, Got the e-mail
Greg S - Friday, 07/23/10 21:22:01 EDT

what kind of wrench: i was helping some ppl a while back unscrew a big nut off a bulldozer and they had this wrench that once you put a certain amount of torque on it, it would "pop" and somehow produce more torque and get the nut right off. prior to using that wrench we had broken the square shank off another socket wrench with a 6 foot cheater bar, but that other wrench got it right off.. any idea what this is called? it looked just like a regular ratcheting wrench, but maybe just a bigger head... dont remember if it ratcheted or not..
- Tyler Murch - Saturday, 07/24/10 18:33:36 EDT

impact wrench: Tyler, was it one of these?
http://toolmonger.com/2006/09/13/finds-swench-manual-impact-wrenches/
- Bernard Tappel - Saturday, 07/24/10 22:43:36 EDT

Thanks guys! : Mr. turley that sounds like a pretty good school. Though it just made it harder to decide where to apply too! Still, this is wonderfully stressful. LOL Though, I am always open to more good Metalurgy programs. I have heard Pittsburgh has a good program, but that is just hear say.
bigfoot - Saturday, 07/24/10 22:47:19 EDT

yup thats it.. preesh ate it
- Tyler Murch - Saturday, 07/24/10 23:54:55 EDT

Health, Diet, Nutrition:
I've reworked our long neglected "Shop Safety" page into a "Health and Safety" page. I've added articles about my recent health problems and the actions I'm taking, Vegetarianism and Nutritarianism plus recipes for Sheries Beans, home made salsa and low calorie fruit "shakes" (Frescas, Batidos or Licuados). There are also a select group of YouTube videos on our AnvilCAM page.

If you need to lose weight, have almost any kind of medical issues, there are answers and cures in proper nutrition. I am now down 45 pounds. . .

The link is on the drop down of our old pages and on the main menus of all our new dynamic pages.

Health and Safety
- guru - Tuesday, 07/27/10 13:01:07 EDT

Health: Guru,
Nice redo to the safety pages. As you know I have been doing the diet thing like you for serious health reasons too. I will pay extra attention to the information you painstakingly provided.
- Smelling Burnt Coal - Tuesday, 07/27/10 15:56:13 EDT

Health Articles: We have a bunch of safety information in the archives and at least one article that was sent to me. All need to be found edited and setup.

There is a couple weeks work in the 3 main health articles and the recipes. Even though there are just a few photos they are the results of taking a lot of photos when the opportunity was presented. I drove Sheri crazy when I was working on her bean recipe. She cooks without recipes and very little measuring. I had to stop her to weigh and measure everything. We weighed all the ingredients so I could do a spread sheet calculation on the combined nutritional values.

All the fruit and vegetable photos used in the articles and recipes are mine. The tomato is one from our garden last year and the pineapple photo was taken about the same time. Both were photos that I had taken and put in my "stock" photo collection. Yep, and I took the peppers photo too. . . The plates with the meals on them were not specially created, they were just what we had and looked good to photograph at the time. I'm sure a real chef would shake his/her head at the presentation! We have other meals that don't photograph well at all so I just let them pass.

So far I've lost 45 pounds and I'm much more energetic. Another of our members with diabetes started the plan after I did and has had very good reports from his doctor. It works folks.
- guru - Tuesday, 07/27/10 20:39:48 EDT

Colleges for Bigfoot: Bigfoot, in PA you'll find the programs you mentioned at Penn State University, College Park, PA and the University of Pittsburgh, Pittsburgh, PA. (You'll also find them at Carnegie-Mellon University in Pittsburgh, but it's private and the costs have sky-rocketed. I was at an alumni get together recently and was appalled to find that it currently running $49,500 a year for tuition, room & board, books, etc. More than 10 times what it was when I graduated in 1974 - good school though, with an excellent reputation.)

Penn State is basically a college town with a bit of reputation for partying. Pitt is smaller, but it's located in Pittsburgh, PA so you have the city available for exploration/amenities - good black smithing group in and around Pittsburgh (PAABA.NET), with folks making a living from it. I'd expect metallurgy classes to be 25 students or less at all 3 schools. You'll find a lot more students taking mechanical engineering - my guess would be 3 to 4 times as many - at least that was what it was when I attended. School reputation/rigor of classes - CMU first, then the University of Pittsburgh, then Pennsylvania State College. There are schools at the eastern end of the state as well, but I'm not as familiar with them - Bucknell and Drexel come to mind.
- Gavainh - Tuesday, 07/27/10 22:28:52 EDT

Health: Good on you Jock,
Please keep documenting your progress with this way of eating. I'm looking forward to seeing the results after a year, and then decade. It is such a personal thing I could not imagine being that open about my health, so thankyou.
JimG - Wednesday, 07/28/10 15:00:09 EDT

Personal Matters Public:
Josh Greenwood talked me into it. Telling stories like mine are what it takes to inspire other people. I am not a "Biggest Loser" contestant with a passel of doctors, nutritionists and trainers paid by a multi-million dollar budget. It is just me and the decisions I make with the assistance of a couple books and my friends.

Every time someone comes forward with their story and can document it then it is proof for others. The fact is there ARE cures for what the medical community currently treats as incurable. The cures are infinitely less costly than bags full of pills that do not cure but only treat symptoms and have seriously toxic side effects.
- guru - Wednesday, 07/28/10 21:41:13 EDT

Welding Rod Choice: I have a Lincoln tombstone 220V AC only welder. I have been using 6013 rods, but they tend to splatter a lot. I'm about out of 6013. Any advice on a better suited rod for doing short welds? Almost all work held in a bench vise.

Due to my somewhat declining health I'm gradually dropping items out of my eBay listings which require of lot of prep work, such as drilling or welding. When I have used up on hand parts I will also stop production of my propane forges out of 30-lb freon bottles.
Ken Scharabok - Wednesday, 07/28/10 22:23:15 EDT

miller 930 rod less splatter tensile 80,000
- smelling burnt coal - Thursday, 07/29/10 17:48:47 EDT

Flaming, Molten Titanium!: One of my friends alerted me to this story the other week. (It's been a very busy week!)

I had no idea titanium was this reactive. I've never messed with it, but some of my friends do some jewelry and knife work from time to time. Little danger of a massive incident, given the quantities thay work with, but are there precautions that should be observed?
Flaming Molten Titanium (AP)
Bruce Blackistone (Atli) - Friday, 07/30/10 16:05:03 EDT

Titanium: I never burned any (solid metal), but it makes brilliant white sparks when You grind it.
- Dave Boyer - Friday, 07/30/10 21:24:52 EDT

titanium is often machined as it's used extensively in aerospace. the fine chips are easily lit. magnesium is another of the more flammable chip metals that is also extensively machined. we have machined magnesium at work, but not since i have been there in the last year and a half. I have seen the flammable chips we keep in a can though. iron/steel will burn as well of course, but not nearly as fast or hot. most everyone knows fine steel wool is very flammable. sometimes on the lathe, taking a light face cut on a large diameter with the tool at a low angle to the face a very fine chip is produced, and the heat from friction is enough to set it on fire.
- Tyler Murch - Saturday, 07/31/10 00:54:32 EDT

Flaming Titanium: Yes Bruce, it is actualy quite dangerous stuff.
At the shop were I work we run some Ti and produce a good quantity of fine chips.
The first time we ran this particular job the operator was trying to machine it without coolant and was getting lots of sparks. When I saw what he was doing I went and told the forman if that stuff starts on fire we have no way to put it out and it will burn at around 5000 F witch will destroy that machine.
So they looked it up and sure enough I was right, it takes a special type of fire extinguisher to put the stuff out and we now have two 50lb bottles on hand at all times.
I used to work in an engraving shop that made templates ,for a lettering machine, from a magnezium aloy that burns with the same brilliant white lite as Ti. All we had there to put a fire out with was sand.
- merl - Saturday, 07/31/10 00:57:09 EDT

At the valve shop we machine Ti and some other exdtic alloys that would burn. Had several small fires in the machines, but we used the right material to extinguish. We machined cast TI ball valve bodies that were for 48
- ptree - Saturday, 07/31/10 07:53:57 EDT

Flaming Metal: Merl, depending on the metal, sometimes the recommended "fire extinguisher" when I worked for Elkem Metals we worked with high purity electrolytic chromium and manganese, including milling them from flake to powder in a nitrogen purged system. Std practice was to not have a fire, but if we were to have one and could get sand to it, that was the recommended material to extinguish the fire - CO2 would just react with the fire, as would water.
- Gavainh - Sunday, 08/01/10 01:06:45 EDT

how do you mill in a nitrogen purged system? is the cutter flooded or is it totally enclosed??
- Tyler Murch - Sunday, 08/01/10 12:05:59 EDT

Tyler: I think He means a ball mill, not a milling cutter like You are thinking. Ball mills are used to grind materials to a fine powder.
- Dave Boyer - Sunday, 08/01/10 21:10:17 EDT

Tyler: This might help:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ball_mill
- Dave Boyer - Sunday, 08/01/10 21:11:54 EDT

Mill: Remember Ty, the word "mill" is just a term that can be applied to many different processes.
end mill, vertiacl mill, horizontal mill, rolling mill, flour mill...
- merl - Monday, 08/02/10 12:26:00 EDT

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