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September 2011 Archive

I used to live in Ventura County, Ojai, actually, and I didnt know any smiths there, although I am sure there must be one or two. However, Kathleen, you should contact Adam's Forge, in Pasadena-
They have classes, and know many of the blacksmiths in southern california.
- Ries - Thursday, 09/01/11 18:00:41 EDT

Kathleen: A nice reproduction Hispanic blacksmith shop you might enjoy visiting is at La Purisima Mission just outside of Lompoc.
Frank Turley - Thursday, 09/01/11 20:39:56 EDT

Smithing History:

This excerpt from March 1944 Arizona Highways Magazine concerning the beginning of Navajo silverwork (Prior to this it was captured as spoils of war):

It was not until an American army man, Captain Henry L. Dodge, newly appointed agent of the Navajo journeyed out into the heart of Navajo country near Fort Defiance and established his headquarters in 1853, that we have our first definite word of a Mexican silversmith living among the indians, and from whom the Navajo learned the first rudiments of manufacturing silver ornaments for their own use. With Captain Dodge went this Mexican silversmith, and an American Blacksmith. These two metal workers taught a handful of Navajo how to work iron and silver. It is significant that the first known Navajo silversith was known as Herrero Delgadito, "Little Lean Iron Worker" or Blacksmith.
- Loren T - Friday, 09/02/11 16:02:09 EDT

12-21-12: When the mothership returns to this galaxy, and is collecting humans to take aboard, I am sure blacksmiths will have a ticket off this dying world. We shall be building an iron starship out in the asteroid belt using the heat of the sun concentrated in parabolic mirrors and with solar panel powered induction forges. I cannot think of much else humans have developed in skills that could be of use to the aliens.
- danny arnold - Saturday, 09/03/11 17:11:58 EDT

Back at the Anvil, at Last!:
I actually did some hot work at the forge today; my first since the heart attacks starting back in March.

I had twelve 1/2" thick stainless steel pins to forge down the last 1/2 inch of and flatten for drilling (to provide removable pins to hold the mast step in place on the longship). After six, the arm got wobbly, and I called it quits- when in doubt; I have learned to take it easy! (The nurses in cardio-rehab have me using 4# weights now; and I was using a 2 1/2# hammer, so I have been preparing and exercising for this.) Still, it was good to be back at the anvil, and I even used the swage block to round-up the flat ends so that they would fit all the way down flush in the holes in the wooden sections. (The smaller holes through the flattened ends of the pins will have lanyards so the pins can be pulled when we haul the ship out for the winter and disassemble the decks and mast step- I'll take pictures.)

Anyway, it was good to be forging again, even if I don't have that much stamina.

Longship Company
Bruce Blackistone (Atli) - Saturday, 09/03/11 20:52:04 EDT

Bruce: Glad to hear it.
Take it as it comes and don't push it.

These old patched up hearts don't have to last forever.
Just till we die.
- Tom H - Saturday, 09/03/11 22:20:45 EDT

Health. . .:
Its easy to get out of shape and easily winded. Last summer I had gotten in pretty good physical shape due to daily walks and then walks with weights (two 3 pound hammers). Winter came and I got out of the habit of walking and this summer there has been a lot of work tension and lack of exercise. . . It only takes an hour a day to feel pretty good but take that away and you lose a lot of stamina.

Forging is hard work because you are trying to keep up with the cooling metal. It is impossible to pace yourself other than limiting the size and number of pieces. If you rest between pieces then you have either a cooling forge or wasted fuel to contend with. . .

A little at a time, day by day.
- guru - Sunday, 09/04/11 14:53:17 EDT

Hack Attack:
Some of you may have seen the mess on our forums this morning. A hacker from an IP in Turkey was trying to embed code or overload our forum scripts. He left hundreds of nonsensical entries in both open forums and the every category of the Tailgate page. Even after I blocked the IP from posting he was still hitting our scripts and also mail services and logins. So I had to have him blocked from our host network.

Most people do not know that every web account on every server is under constant attack. Most attacks are robotic trying to find holes in database system logins and server administration. We get hundreds of these a day in spurts just from the 2 out of nearly 100 sites that I have report these attacks. The total would be thousands per day. That is thousands of hack attempts on our server every day.

We used to get robotic attacks by the hundreds on our contact form until I setup the "Are you human" system. It has stopped these dead.

What was different today was this was a manual attack. In the past we have had a few trolls but nothing like this. . .

Have a safe Holiday Weekend!
- guru - Sunday, 09/04/11 15:13:09 EDT

I found an old anvil but it's in REALLY bsad shape, can i use a hand grinder to square it up? or do i need something different?
- wesley - Sunday, 09/04/11 23:24:25 EDT

Wesley: A portable belt sander with all the sawdust removed does a pretty good job. Don't try to get it perfect, just smooth it out some and use it.

Holding the sander about 45 degrees off the long axis and moving it from end to end of the face, then 45 the other way makes it cut the fastest. Use the blue Zircona belts if You can find them.
- Dave Boyer - Sunday, 09/04/11 23:31:33 EDT

Squaring Up:
Wesley, if you mean making the corners sharp and square you do not need to do it. Rounded corners are better for forging and do not chip as easily as square. If the face is saddled that also does not effect your forging and is actually better for straightening.

If the anvil is badly rusted OR has been abused is should be dressed smooth. Chisel marks, punch pricks and dings from hard tools can be "healed" somewhat by working the surface with a hammer push the raised material down and fill the low spots. This works best on a few minor fresh dings and cuts that have not been worn or rusted. After healing the surface then you can grind or sand it.

As Dave pointed out a belt sander is best. An angle grinder (wheeled grinder with right angle gear box) takes a lot of practice to get smooth results. If you are going to use one try to find one of the face grinding flap wheels. These do a lot smoother job than the rigid fiber glass reinforced wheels.

If the corners are mushroomed (rolled over making a lip), this should be ground off. Same for the tip of the horn which is often abused and mushroomed. Don't try to make it sharp, they normally have a flat on the end. Just dress off the mushrooming.
Anvil Corner Radii
- guru - Monday, 09/05/11 02:40:40 EDT

Knifemaking hammer-in coming up in TN: Sorry for the short notice, but for those interested in bladesmithing there's a great FREE hammerin coming up in two weeks in Knoxville, Tennessee. Details at the link!
Bowie's Hammer-in 2011
Alan-L - Monday, 09/05/11 10:27:31 EDT

hackers: I feel your pain, Jock. I've been an admin on another site for a year now, and the hackers are relentless. We did set up a sentience test after one day when I got over 300 robo-registrations an hour. I now check every single applicant's IP before we let 'em in, and between that and a couple of other rules (no fake names, etc.) we've managed to keep the blighters out for a while now. Which is not to say I haven't banned whole ranges of certain IP addresses in eastern Europe that were persistant offenders...
Alan-L - Monday, 09/05/11 10:37:53 EDT

Hackers, Trolls and more: Hackers are a continuous nuisance at server level but we have only had a two instances on our forums in 14 years. Occasionally we have Trolls but the majority of them are "taggers" and just want to put their mark on your forum. They go away after you erase their posts a few times. The big problem is occasional Flaming and anti-social behavior.

Forums that allow images and indiscriminate linking have the biggest problems, especially when they are not closely monitored. Forum spammers will post banners and links to everything from viagra to porn if you do not stay on top of it.

Even legitimate users will create problems when off-site image linking is allowed. I was directed to a forum the other day that was linking to one of vise article images. Not only was it copyright infringement but by having the image served by our server it was theft of services. The article in question was linking to images from a dozen different sources including company catalog and personal image collections. Some may have been with permission but those from sites like ours definitely were not.

Its always something.
- guru - Monday, 09/05/11 19:28:50 EDT

Alan L: I read Your knife story on the knife forum. Great story. You can forge a tall tale with any of them.
- Dave Boyer - Monday, 09/05/11 19:34:19 EDT

Thanks, Dave. It was fun to write, too.

Jock, we run into that too, but the zero-tolerance policy resulting in removal from the forum and permanent blocking of IPs keeps the trolls away for the most part.
Alan-L - Tuesday, 09/06/11 11:53:55 EDT

One troll on a blacksmithing forum was calling a friend of mine a "snake in the grass" but doing it from an assumed name which I found rather amusing...

Thomas P - Tuesday, 09/06/11 16:24:20 EDT

Wesley; I have often been puzzled by people want to grind the edges of old anvils square as I have a 19th century smithing book that reminds smiths that the first thing you want to do with a new anvil is to round off the edges...(sharp edges tend to make cold shuts in your work or leave stress concentrators.)

If you need a sharp edge for something it's an easy task to make a hardy tool with *4* of them on it.
Thomas P - Tuesday, 09/06/11 16:27:59 EDT

And, of course, you'd have to grind off a *lot* of material to make rounded corners square.
Mike BR - Tuesday, 09/06/11 20:13:28 EDT

I dont mean make the edges square i mean it has a bunch of fist size dents in the top. i want to make the top part flat. thanks though but can i do that with a portable sander?
- wesley - Tuesday, 09/06/11 20:48:50 EDT

Wesley: If the top of the anvil is hard [check it with a file] You don't want to remove much material, as they are not hard very deep, and You will be left with a softer face, or a thin [too thin] hard layer that will not hold up well.

If it isn't hard, You would be better off finding one that is, as a soft anvil won't hold up well at all.

If You can get a reasonably smooth area a few inches square over the body of the anvil, just do Your work on the good spot. The part that matters most is the part of the anvil directly under the hammer.

The belt sander will not remove great ammounts of material without a whole lot of work and fresh belts, so it is a reasonably safe method to suggest, and does do a nice job.
- Dave Boyer - Tuesday, 09/06/11 21:16:59 EDT

Grinders and Sandsrs: Wesley, Yes, you can dress an anvil with a portable grinder/sander. There are numerous types that make a difference in how difficult the job is going to be and how well it turns out.

The first thing is that you need to determine if the anvil is worth putting the effort into it. If it is badly dented it may be too soft to put a lot of effort and expense into. OR it could be a good old anvil that is either worn or abused. Anvils that see lots of use in the same places actually wear and become wavy. Often these worn places made it easier to forge whatever the smith was making (a sweet spot) and they work there more and the dip wears more and more.

You do not want to take too much of the anvil. Old anvils often become swayed or saddle backed from long use. Trying to remove all of this can ruin the anvil as the hard part is not very thick. Old steel faced anvils have a steel plate 1/2 to 5/8" thick. Under this is soft unhardenable wrought iron. The steel plate itself is often only hard 1/2 way through or harder on the surface and getting softer the farther in you go. If you take off half the plate thickness it will no longer be strong enough to resist bending and failure and this deep in it will not be as hard as it needs to be. 1/8" is LOT and any more will permanently damage the anvil. Take off as little as possible.

So, smooth out dents but do not try to make it perfect. A little curved or rounded or slightly rolling surface does not hurt anything. A flat anvil DOES NOT make flat work. Your eye and skill makes flat straight work.

Heavy duty high speed (6,000 RPM 7.5" 20A) angle grinders are very aggressive and difficult to make a smooth surface with. If you do not have a lot of practice with one you can do more damage than good. Otherwise they move material the fastest.

Lighter 4" angle grinders are easier to use and less aggressive. You can still create more dings than you remove. However, they make nice soft flap wheels for these grinders which make a much smoother surface. They cut slower, but you are less likely to make things worse.

Belt sanders work best for making very flat surfaces and by rolling them over the curved surface of the horn a very smooth clean horn surface. On the flat, as noted above you move one diagonally one direction then diagonally the other. Then length wise IF the anvil is fairly flat to start with. If the surface is swayed you may have to lift the back of the grinder and use the front roller to cut in the swayed area.

Happy Grinding!
- guru - Tuesday, 09/06/11 22:26:18 EDT

A clearer Discription - Belt Sanders Grinders:
When making things flat with a belt sander, file or scraper the tool is held diagonally across the work and moved axially on the long axis of the work. Then it is held diagonally in the opposite direction and moved axially to the work again.

When using an angle grinder the face of the wheel is not used. The grinder is held at a 30 to 45 degree angle and the edge of the wheel is used for cutting. This is why I say that you can make things worse rather than better with an angle grinder.

Similar to the other tools the grinder can be held at an angle to a narrow surface (such as the edge of a plate) and alternated left and right to get a flatter surface. Occasionally you can hold the flat of the wheel on the work to mark the high spots that need to be removed. However, this should be brief as working on the flat clogs the wheel AND it can also thin the wheel which is dangerous.

- guru - Wednesday, 09/07/11 13:57:43 EDT

I'm just back from a one-week visit with distant cousins in Croatia. Took note of ironwork while walking or being driven. 99.9% looked fairly new from a factory. Found a bit of old stuff in an old church, but while I was there a wedding was taking place. Couldn't exactly walk around to look.

Went with cousin who wanted to look at an old house in the mountains as a weekend retreat. Very old house, but all rusty cut and stick type work.

Did find one blacksmith forge. Stopped at a road Y and looked in driveway across road. What to my wonderous eyes should appear, but an electric blower table-type forge. As best my cousin could determine he had bought it someplace and never used it. Apparently used by a farrier as there were some rusty shoes on top.
Ken Scharabok - Saturday, 09/10/11 11:04:42 EDT

Wrought Iron Tours: Ken, Sounds like you had a good trip.

On one of our tours to Costa Rica our friend Johan took us for a tour of the local iron. Without him as a guide the little good stuff would have been very difficult to find. Helps to have the right kind of guide.
- guru - Saturday, 09/10/11 23:31:34 EDT

slack tub pub: Guru, please let me back in. I promise to behave.
- danny arnold - Wednesday, 09/14/11 17:45:59 EDT

Danny, Scroll down on the input section of this page. Then click "Erase Cookie"

Then login to the pub (not the "members" login) with the username and password sent to you. They are NOT interchangeable, they are case sensitive, and they were your choice. They work. I've tested them.
- guru - Wednesday, 09/14/11 22:42:44 EDT


Ever get a phone call from a company called "Cards Services" or "Credit Services"? They try to sound like they are YOUR credit card company and are offering to reduce your interest rate. Often its the "last chance" to reduce your rates.

These folks are NOT your credit card company. They hoodwink folks into paying for worthless services provided by boiler room operators OR home workers that are NOT trained or licensed financial counselors. Even the initiating robot phone call is illegal since they ARE NOT your credit card company and have no business of financial relationship with you the calls (often to phones on the do-not-call list) are illegal.

This scam has been running for more than 5 years and thousands of complaints have been made but the "powers that be" have done nothing.


This is a less common fraud that I recently saw on another web site. They offer to pay $3 to $4 (or more) per 300 to 400 word article to writers to provide a minimum of 20 articles a day on a variety of popular subjects and claim its a great part time work at home job. The first catch is the per word pay rate is anywhere from 30 to 100 times lower than the industry norm. The second catch is that minimum of 20 articles. You contract for that number, but can never achieve it and thus are never paid for the work you turn in OR are paid at an even lower per word rate. The scammer uses the articles he got for nothing using them for what ever devious purpose (spam "newsletters", blog or spam. . .). So they have dozens, maybe hundreds of sometimes desperate people looking for added income working for free while fueling yet another scam.

The scam works because people want to believe a prospective "employer" and do not believe they would ask the impossible. The scam goes on year after year because there is nothing illegal about it.

The catch is the required 20 articles is a minimum of 6,000 words a day. Professional fiction writers and stream of consciousness authors can often hit 10,000 words a day but that is rarely publishable content and never researched factual content. Phenomenal authors like Isaac Asimov only produced 2000 to 4000 words per 10 hour day of fiction and personal experience and much LESS in researched articles. Other less brilliant authors produce similar or higher word counts but then rewrite it a number of times as well as have editors and proof readers do a lot of fixup. A 5000 word day becomes a 2500 word day with the first rewrite and a 1250 word day on the second. . . So what chance does a part time writer have? None.


These are constantly changing and the bad guys are getting smarter. I get tons that claim they are ebay, paypal, my bank, my credit card company. . . The mails LOOK very authentic, have all the company logos. Even the response URLs look legitimate.

I recently got one supposedly from google adsense saying they had changed ad categories and that I was now accepting ads for sexual health and birth control (we DO NOT). The long response URL was something like\

I looked at this one for a long time. I knew it was a scam but could not figure it out. It clearly says But does it?

The backslash is a legal filename character NOT the Internet forward slash control character for folders. The periods are sub domain separators so this was setup with sub-sub-sub domains. . . The PY at the end LOOKS like the designation for a Perl script (pl) but is not. The ACTUAL web address is "". A domain registered in Paraguay!

This same server sub-domain system can be used to create:\\\

These could all be used for fishing sites and they do not need much from you. Just login. They then have your user name and password for whichever URL was put at the beginning of the string. . . Many people login then give even MORE information such as social security numbers, their address. . . Keys to their Kingdom.

This is an EASY fraud to stop but there has to be someone in government willing to to actually take some action. Such URL's require a name server and a registered URL both of which are easy to shut down.

The general rule is "If it comes in SPAM its always fraud". But today you need to consider that "If it comes in email that you did not initiate, its probably a fraud as well".

Keep your wits about you.


I am getting a flood of email offering various free energy systems. Some claim it is from the suppressed work of Nikola Tesla that can grab energy from the air or uses new "inertia generators" (IE perpetual motion) machines. All bogus schemes that claim to make something form nothing. Tesla is particularly popular today due to his prominence in various popular TV fictions (Sanctuary, Eureka, Warehouse 13. . .) and the new (real non-fictional) Tesla automobile.

No matter what they are selling it is a fraud. Secret plans, investments, memberships, newsletters. . . All frauds or phishing for your credit card number.
- guru - Thursday, 09/15/11 13:19:28 EDT

One correction .py *is* the postscript designation for python scripts no "Perfectly Eclectic Rubbish Lister" needed.
Thomas P - Thursday, 09/15/11 18:36:18 EDT

Thanky Thanky for all this good inforamtion!
- Tommy - Friday, 09/16/11 13:55:40 EDT

job shop smithy wanted: We have need for a smith willing to make scroll ends in !/2" square bar. It will be for 100 piece lots. Golden Mean spiral 6-7/8" x 6- 7/8" space end cut square, different end treatment, snub end, taper, and beveled scroll both right and left with fuller grooves one side. Please no beginners a pro quote is requested.
- danny arnold - Saturday, 09/17/11 12:50:59 EDT

snub end scrolls : anyone who can turn a snub end on a 1/2 " solid square bar with no taper and maintaining 1/2 " thick. I got a job for you.
- danny arnold - Saturday, 09/17/11 18:14:50 EDT

job , anyone?: It has been exactly 24 hrs since I posted for a job shop smithy, no replies.
- danny arnold - Sunday, 09/18/11 14:16:27 EDT

Scrolls: An email address might help. Maybe clearer descriptions. I would want to see a drawing before bidding.

Round end scrolls are typically thinner than the bar to get a nice size round. A taper (when viewed from the side accentuates the size of the end. To keep it full width requires either an upset OR a fold that is usually a cold shut unless welded. Most that are full size right to the end have a cold shut.
- guru - Sunday, 09/18/11 18:57:40 EDT

snub end scrolls: Yup I knew that, the thing client and I worry about is/will be consistancy. This morning I will meet again with the boss to decide about end treatments for all these scrolls. Would you beleive we got an opening for this on issues of quality and consistancy! Mexico has disspointed them one time too many. let's roll some scrolls America! e-mail= arnoldbr @ cox . net
- danny arnold - Monday, 09/19/11 07:40:58 EDT

scrolls: After a sit down with the client, we determined what we will be wanting is only "ribbon end" as the English call a taper end. start six inches back on a 1/2" sq. bar taper it keeping it 1/2" wide down to 1/8" thick at end taper one side only from 1/2" to 1/8" light hammering on the corners of the bar just to break the edges is also wanted aroldbr @ cox .net
- danny arnold - Monday, 09/19/11 09:36:16 EDT

Snub End without Taper: Many of the current snub end scrolls with no taper in either axis that I have seen in recent years were castings. Lots of that type thing being cast in ductile iron but the pattern makers are not smiths so the patterns do not truly represent forgings. There is so much of this stuff that many buyers think that is what they are supposed to look like. I'm told they are 12mm so they do not match 1/2". . .

A couple years ago I saw a bunch of stuff from India with that style ending. They had welded a sawed off round to the bar. This might be able to be done well with a lot of grinding but even in a slave wage shop they were not doing the hand work necessary to clean up the parts. I suspect greed is part of the issue. Instead of paying pennies and hour they want to pay even less. . .

THEN. . in Mexico and Central America it is common to fix this kind of stuff with auto body putty. . .
- guru - Monday, 09/19/11 10:09:23 EDT

scroll job: taper end scrolls is the job and forging tapers on one end of a yard of 1/2" square bar might be considered. in 100 piece lots.. arnoldbr @ cox. net
- danny arnold - Monday, 09/19/11 15:09:34 EDT

!! steel prices !!: $ 100.00 buys you 8- 1/2" x 1/2" hot roll square bar 20' long, in Baton Rouge, Louisiana USA. Not delivered.
- danny arnold - Monday, 09/19/11 16:10:51 EDT

12mm not 1/2".... got into a heated debate with an employee about AWG 00 size, our jewelry suppliers are mostly repping stuff made in Cheena. 00ga is 3/8" = 9.6mm. Cheeniese jewelry reads 00g as 10mm, so sometimes when a customer buys jewelry it won't fit.... hate it. Of course the US made stuff is more expensive and on point measurement-wise.
- Nippulini - Monday, 09/19/11 16:58:25 EDT

Steel Prices and Wire Sizes: We got a slightly lower price today but who knows what it will be tomorrow. . . Gas prices are up and down as well.

1/2" = 12.7mm and I call for 13mm stock since it is the closest and also the wrench size that fits 1/2". . .

Gage sizes.
00 AWG & B&S = .3648" = .9266mm
00 SWG = .3310
00 BSW = .348
00 B'ham or Stubbs Iron = .3800
NA Stubs Steel Wire = (.277 to .013")
00 Music or Piano = .008"

None equal 3/8 (0.375). But the closest is the Birmingham or Stubb's Iron Wire Gage. It is .005 over, AWG is .0102 under.

Machinery's Handbook recommends ALWAYS giving an actual dimension as well as a gage size and stating the dimension is the overriding value and a tolerance.

- guru - Monday, 09/19/11 18:09:31 EDT

scroll jig: I was considering sending out a sample scroll, but that would force smiths to copy MY JIG and yours might be closer to the golden mean than mine. I took a circle of 3/4" mild steel scrap from a pipe flange shop and welded a piece of angle iron on it to go into the vise.On the top I glued with honey a single leaf of that NORTHERN brand toilet paper with an embossed scroll pattern. I center punched the dots and made a scroll jig to match in 1/2" x 1/2" bar. Hey it works!
- danny arnold - Monday, 09/19/11 18:45:11 EDT

Tip of the Day: Today's tip brings PawPaw to mind.
His posts after he realized his fate were especially poignant.
Hope all take it to heart.
- Tom H - Tuesday, 09/20/11 13:58:25 EDT

That works out to about $.73/lb which is cheaper than I paid this morning for 30' of 1/2x2
- JNewman - Tuesday, 09/20/11 19:58:40 EDT

scrolls: So what is a scroll worth? You cut 1/2" square bar a yard long. forge a smooth taper on one end about 6" from 1/2"- 3/16"square cut end. Turn in your jig to fit in a 7" square, flatten and ship to Baton Rouge La. I need some input, PLEASE!
- danny arnold - Wednesday, 09/21/11 08:29:21 EDT

My post got cut off 30' of 1/2x2" 10' of 1 1/4" round and 10' of of 1 1/2" round. This was about $160 which works out to almost $.80/lb.
- JNewman - Wednesday, 09/21/11 11:54:42 EDT

Scrolls: Danny, I suspect folks still need more specifics. "Starting with a 3 foot piece then cutting it off" is not the way to make production scrolls. Every one should start with the same stock and be within a few grams of identical weight. A scroll fitting in a square is not the Golden Mean scroll you asked for. .

I generally make my scroll jigs by eye. But if someone want to be very specific then they need to provide a drawing.

Cost is largely dependent on end type and length of taper. Originally you were asking for no taper. While this is a little harder to do by hand it may have been cheaper in production.

Folks can't bid on a non-specific moving target. Well, you can. . . Just bid about three or four times higher than what something should cost. That would make an $8 part a $24 to $32 part.

There is an art to specifying things to quote. You need to be specific, include toleranced dimensions but not tolerances that increase the price more than it should be. Be specific enough to get what you want, but not so specific that the job could be too much trouble to want to bid.

Example. The material should be defined as "mild steel" in a range of SAE1018 to ASTM A36. Size 0.50" square hot roll mill tolerance (usually +/- .005").

These are tight but that keeps you from getting metric sizes or mill scrap.

Depending on the part the overall size would be +/- 1/8" to +/-1/4". Flatness +/- 1/32" ?? These could be tighter or looser depending on what was needed.

The last (semi) production scrolls I produced had to fit in a triangular space and have screw holes at three or four tangent points. The scroll ends were hand forged, scrolled on a jig, then fit into a triangular fixture. When cool they were put back into the fixture and marked for holes then drilled.

The client came to me asking advice so most of the design was mine (easy). BUT the wooden brackets the scrolls had to fit were being made by someone else. He was a fine craftsman and when I asked how close to the dimensions his triangles were he was a little flustered. I asked if they would be +/- 1/32". He laughed and said if he missed them that much they would not fit together! They were more like +/- 1/64" MAX and probably half that or less. So I made the triangular fixtures (there were two) exactly to his dimensions.

Everything fit, everyone was happy, everything was handled on the phone except delivery. The largely hand made scrolls about 16" long may have been +/- 1/4" in non-critical places. But in the critical fit places they were +0/-.010" and only took a few seconds to adjust to that tolerance.

I think I made a total of 25 of these double ended scrolls in two sizes. But I could have easily made more. On that quantity half the job (in the shop) was making the jigs and figuring out the stock length.

To figure out the stock length for the double ended scrolls I made the scroll jig first. It was used for both ends even though one was larger than the other. Just less wrap on the jig. I made one of each end from measured lengths of stock. Then I cut them to fit the triangular fixture and welded them together as a sample. The amount cut off was subtracted from the total length of the two pieces. All the production parts were one piece starting from this length. Quick, easy, fool proof and no math.

iForge Spiral Layout
- guru - Wednesday, 09/21/11 14:03:11 EDT

scroll job: he job could be too much trouble to want to bid.

Example. The material should be defined as "mild steel" in a range of SAE1018 to ASTM A36. Size 0.50" square hot roll mill tolerance (usually +/- .005").the length: you can cut six yards from a twentyfooter , do so. Forge a taper on ONE end. turn it in a scroll jig that makes a spiral scroll, with a perfectly curved end (no machine starts)... yo compren`de ? it seems I cant get yanks too... so maybe i learn lingo si!
- danny arnold - Thursday, 09/22/11 08:11:10 EDT

Danny, If you scroll up 36" of 1/2" stock it fills your 7 x 7 box 37% and would make 5 or more full rotations. So far you have 4 different descriptions of what you want above.

Samples, dimensioned drawings, photos, or (accurate) written specs are required before anyone makes hundreds of something. A full scale drawing always has the least chance for a misunderstanding.

If you can't explain it clearly in English how are you going to do it in another language? Drawings are universal.
- guru - Thursday, 09/22/11 13:44:12 EDT

scrolls: I used a pattern for a scroll from a sheet of embossed toilet tissue. the jig is built so the tapered tip of a yard of bar has to be radiused a little bit to start in it and a flat screwdriver will lock it in place to start the scroll one and one half turns and the spiral is done with an end that is rounded correctly. flatten it on a table . ship one to me for $20.00 if it is good we will order one hundred more just like it for $20.00 each. two other scroll sizes are also needed a smaller diam. and larger , roughly 1/2 the size of the middle one and twice that size.
- danny arnold - Friday, 09/23/11 09:04:37 EDT

scroll fit: I'm not trying to be obtuse, but I don't see how a scroll should fit in a 7" square. Where are the points of tangency? A circle will fit into a square, tangent on the four sides. The large, open end of a scroll may touch the side, but where on the side? Then, if touching, the scroll becomes uniformly smaller, so there is no snug fit in a 7" square. I may be missing something.
Frank Turley - Saturday, 09/24/11 23:14:14 EDT

Thanks for the reply Frank, I am so frustrated being unable to communicate all the info that client is DEMANDING NOW!! to Y'all. Me computer wiz and wife is out of town for another week and then we can email again. I was called to go to this millworks biz to look at a door
- danny arnold - Sunday, 09/25/11 09:30:05 EDT

One day before she left. Stewart is sending a sample scroll we will lookat if it meets clients expectations 100 more will be ordered this scroll is the middle size in this design there is a larger and a smaller one needed we will pay $20.00 each shipped to Baton Rouge the seven inch square is my crude attempt to describe the space the middle size scroll fits in sorry arnoldbr@
- danny arnold - Sunday, 09/25/11 11:24:48 EDT

What's in a Name? When Stupidity Reins:
Most baby boomer folks know the great Bell Laboratories, inventors of the LASER, transistor and many many other technological advances that make the world what it is today. Bell Labs made the U.S. the envy of the technological world. Then came the break up of AT&T, then the re-branding of Bell Labs to the forgettable Lucent Technologies to the even more forgettable Alcatel-Lucent (now a French Company like the former Babcox & Wilcox AKA Areva AKA. . nom de jour). Such a dumb thing to give up the name known world wide for doing great things. . .

Alcatel-Lucent still uses the Bell Labs name but, you know what you get today when you search for "Bell Laboratories" on google? Number one is a manufacturer of RAT poison!
- guru - Monday, 09/26/11 14:27:51 EDT

Scrolls. No long after Nol Putman install his scroll screen in the National Cathedral in Washington, DC, he was at a group conference in IN. He mentioned he needed something like 100 C scrolls. He made 200 and then picked out the best 100.
- Ken Scharabok - Wednesday, 09/28/11 20:11:43 EDT

a "scroll" in the park: Danny should get my sample today............if the USPS cooperates..........
- stuartthesmith - Friday, 09/30/11 09:03:36 EDT

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