WELCOME to the anvilfire!Virtual Hammer-In! This page is open to ALL for the purpose of advancing blacksmithing. October 2004 Archive |
|
WHY THREE FORUMS? Well, this is YOUR blacksmithing forum to use for whatever you wish within the rules stated above. It is different than the Slack-Tub Pub because the messages are permanently posted and archived. This page is NOT a chat - it is a "message board" Our chat, the (Slack-Tub Pub), is immediate but the record of it is temporary. DO NOT post permanent messages there. We refresh the "log" every 24 hours now and your message will be lost. The Guru's Den is where I and several others try to answer ALL your blacksmithing and metalworking questions to us. Please note that this forum uses an e-mail encryption system that prevents spam harvesters from collecting your e-mail address. |
| J. Dempsey <webmaster> Rev. 7/98, 3/99, 5/2k, 6/2k, Friday, 04/06/01 16:43:25 GMT |
|
More about Cast Iron: I've updated the Cast Irons properties chart by including three common steels for comparison. It is hard to compare because some of the properties of cast iron do not relate directly to steel or are so absurd that engineers do not make the comparison. If I find the same for steel I will update the chart just for absurdity's sake. ASTM 30 is the most common "grey iron" cast by most foundries and is fairly standard. Cheap Chinese ASO's MIGHT qualify as ASTM 20. Compare this to mild steel (the steel is 3 times stronger and also harder). The best alloy cast iron which is a rare product just about meets mild steel in stength and hardness. However, it is still brittle and will break where the steel just yeilds (one of the absurdity factors). The 1050 heat treated is roughly the properties of most anvils. However the temper condition given is softer. Use the 1095 temper for anvils. When you compae SAE 1050 which is approximately what plated anvils use for the face to ASTM 30 CI the steel is 5 times stronger and almost twice as hard. The resistance to brittle fracture (not given) is many times greater than CI. SO. . . a mild steel anvil is better than CI and real anvils are MANY times stronger than CI. Where CI has a VERY short life as an anvil, good steel has an almost infinite life in comparison. Science to back up the rhetoric. |
| - guru - Thursday, 09/30/04 22:57:09 EDT |
|
Now Guru, I have seen a passel of the cheap "Sears" cast iron anvils out around the "homeplace (AR/OK)" usually the faces are worn till they look like the back of a razorback and they are wired to the bottom of fences where they cross a gully... (If you read the 1900's sears catalog they offered several levels of quality and the bottom rungs were cast iron and chilled face cast iron) Stopped by the fleamarket today and picked up a heavy duty comealong. My old one will be crushed and discarded so that I will never be tempted to risk life and limb using it...I already jacked up the WI pile to fish it out and use it when I know better.... Thomas |
| Thomas P - Friday, 10/01/04 11:39:47 EDT |
|
Square hole question:: Would the use of an EDM to enlarge the hardy whole on a trenton anvil form 7/8 to 1" change the temper of the face or endanger the strength of the heel? Thanks in advance |
| - habu - Friday, 10/01/04 23:43:16 EDT |
|
square holes: why not change the hardy tools to 7/8ths? Seems like a more sensable answer to me. But then I hate screwing around with anvils. Especially with square holes in one of the weakest points of an anvil. Yeah it is only 1/8 inch more, but ....... |
| Ralph - Saturday, 10/02/04 01:23:13 EDT |
|
Pully & Belt Info page: I found a cool site tonight while searching for a drive pully. It is a page that calculates pully and belt information. Just put in your drive wheel sizes etc and it will calculate your ratios and final drive speed etc. Very helpful for us math challenged folks. http://www.csgnetwork.com/pulleybeltcalc.html |
| FredlyFX - Saturday, 10/02/04 02:59:54 EDT |
|
Habu, EDM will not change the temper in the anvil. One of the advantages of EDM is that you can cut heat treated tooling without affecting the temper. We used to cut M-42 shave and profile tools for screw machines on wire EDM by the basket full. All were from a slab of machined and fully heat treated M-42. Put a little lip on and install in the dovetail holder and start cutting stainless, monel, and carbon steel. We also sunk dies with Ram EDM, into fully hardened die blocks. All this of course does not address the issue of should you open out that 7/8" hardy hole. I too have a 7/8" hardy hole in a Trenton. All my hardy tooling has been made by me or Tom Clark. He made the hardy from spring steel in a demo. Rough forged the shank, and then swaged the shank with sledges into the hole. Fits well and has a chisel mark to show the alignment, as it fits well only one way. Then he forged out the cutting portion. All my other tooling is either forged solid shanks or folded 3/16" flat forged into the shank. Looking at my Trenton, I think the hardy area is a bit thin and would be leary of removing any metal in this area. If you want better detailed info on making you own tools by swaging into the hole give me an e-mail. |
| ptree - Saturday, 10/02/04 08:50:52 EDT |
|
EDM. Sqare hole and shanks: Habu, As Ptree covered it pretty well, I would not want to make this weak point weaker by making the hole bigger. See my #164 iForge demo on bolster plates and square holes. If you are going to go through the effort of making the square hole then I'd make it in a piece of heavy plate and setup a stump or tool holder on a stand to use near the anvil. A plate with several holes could be made and then any common sized tools could be used. I would make all the holes 1/32" oversize for a good non-interference fit. I have a bunch of 3/4" shank tooling from my first anvil. When I sold the anvil the hardy went with it but not the rest. Everything else was used on an anvil that was only 28 pounds heavier but had a 7/8" hardy hole. My Hay-Budden and big Kohlswa have holes over 1" and the only tool that "fits" is the rough hardy that came with the Hay-Budden. The sizes on both are so odd I can never remember them. . . One is 1-3/32" I think (28mm). I have a collection of square shanked tools that many only fit a 1-3/8" hardy hole. The 3/4" tools fit one of my personal pattern swage blocks and the 1-3/8" fits a hole in my big industrial block. I also have a collection of stakes that all have different sized tapered shanks even though they LOOK the same. . . NEVER use these in a anvil hardy hole unless you want a broken anvil. Among these tools is a set of top and bottom round swages that run from 3/8" to 2". The shanks range from 3/4" to 1-3/8". Some of the largest have the smallest shanks. . . All these tools get used on ocassion but none fit my anvils. Of course these all work in larger holes. Those that are too big get used in swage blocks and vises. I'm just glad to have the tools and make do with using them. A good product for someone to make would be a hardy plate with 3/4", 7/8", 1" and 1-1/8" holes. 1-3/16, 1-1/4, 1-5/16 and 1-3/8 would also be useful. Yes, anvils came with all these size holes and more. . . The advantage of having a seperate hardy holder is that you can leave the hardy in place without it being a knuckle buster. |
| - guru - Saturday, 10/02/04 15:46:25 EDT |
|
Hazards: Ralph, Ptree, Eric plus I like the passing on of collective wisdom when it is right. That is why I tune in occasionally and learn a lot. Unfortunately, collective wisdom can also fall short. In off topic areas, it is difficult for the novice and frequently difficult even for those with extended knowledge to separate fact from fiction. This is particularly true of fields like toxicology. Because I typically lurk, it usually takes some egregious comments for me to break silence. The medical literature is full of toxicities. All of the nutrients are toxic (yes there are LD50’s for salt, sugar, Vitamin A, etc.) - but I suspect that you don’t want to stop consuming these known toxins. If you did, you would develop a deficiency which would also be fatal. Yes, it is a complex world. Toxicity is a function of quantity, rate, genetics and pre-conditioning. Animals forced to smoke cigarettes have a different LD50 for many chemicals than do normal animals. Their drug metabolizing system’s activity is increased due to chronic exposures to “low” levels. Unfortunately, some of the chemicals in tobacco smoke overload the body’s defense system and we get disease as a result. The same goes for people who consume alcohol or any other potentially hazardous chemical. Metabolic detoxification pathways are all two edged swords. If they don’t have enough to do, they can take innocuous chemicals and “activate” them into toxic chemicals. I could selectively shut these systems down for you, but you would die. They all serve a real purpose. When I hear a hobby smith and some industrial users talk about not being at risk because they have good ventilation on their coal fires, I roll my eyes and ask them two questions. The first question is to define the difference in health risk between particulates 0.5 to 10.0 microns in diameter (which you can’t see) and particulates greater that 50 microns in diameter (which you can see in a beam of light; and as they get bigger are very easy to see). The second question is to explain the differences in face velocities of a hood required for the removal of particulates (of both sizes) and volatile chemicals. We could take that further and talk about volatile chemicals with densities greater than air or lower than air. When you manage a coal fire, do you manage it to produce benzene or benzpyrene? Can you not do both? We know that ~1/3rd of the dioxin released into the atmosphere today comes from coal-fired power plants. Another 1/3rd comes from uncontrolled “trash” fires by suburban & rural homeowners. A couple of back-of-envelope calculations suggests that every time a smith fires up a coal fire, he/she releases more dioxins and PAH’s into the air than does a power plant serving 20k people. Venting those chemicals 15’ or 20’ into the air means only that you don’t have to deal with them (assuming a properly designed and operating hood). But your neighbors still do. I assume that demonstration forges are all designed to account for this plume. No? Really? Fortunately for you, all of those onlookers one aisle down have detoxification systems in their bodies to handle short-term sub-acute exposures. Moving your stack up to 250’ above the ground (if you could) only means that people living 300 miles away are exposed. Yes, propane forges are significantly safer. Benzene is a powerful hepatotoxin when it overloads the liver's metabolic degradation capacity. Dying of liver falure is not fun. But a coal burning smith is in a glass house. End of comment. |
| - dloc - Sunday, 10/03/04 00:28:03 EDT |
|
and your point is?: dloc, I fail to see what your point is to be honest. If you are a lurker as you say, you will have seen repeated cautions as to the inherient hazards in this field. Why haven't you talked about the poisons contained under the average kitchen sink? or in the average garden shed? When I manage my coal fire I generally expect to stay out of the smoke. I also expect that I am risking a certain amount due to my hobby. I will also argue that there are probably more dangers to a propane forge than to a coal forge for the simple reason that a propane forge has the perception of being 'clean' It has no visible smoke. But it does not mean that harmful emmisions are not there. But back to your previous comments. " Because I typically lurk, it usually takes some egregious comments for me to break silence." What was it that was so egregious for you to de-lurk? I think we were talking about various derusting methods. ANd I think I may have commented on how I prefer using fewer chemical methods as they are usually more safe. Also something to the effect that various solvents are effective but there are other means. |
| Ralph - Sunday, 10/03/04 01:13:07 EDT |
|
LIFE...........: is what you do while you're waitin' to die |
| - 3dogs - Sunday, 10/03/04 02:41:34 EDT |
|
LIFE: Amen to that 3dogs. |
| Ralph - Sunday, 10/03/04 08:47:56 EDT |
|
Ralph, Perhaps it was my comments that started all this, about benzene NOT being a friendly natural product, a chemical found in the body that is not of concern. I went on a tear about chemical hazards and bad advice to unkowing younger smiths. I tend to do that often as I deal with 5 different plants in my safety and environmental day job. Yes, coal burning produces many toxics. That is the main reason that I tend to the gasser first. Yes, I do have the hood face velocities, the behind the back make-up air and wear a particulate/organic vapor filter with NIOSH approvals on a half mask when I weld, grind, or run the coal forge at home. Yes I do live in this world, and Louisville Ky. happens to be very polluted with HAP's. You see we have Rubbertown in the west end. Left over chemical plants from WWII. I have spent the last 25 years working in industry, and for many years did trouble jobs for the valve mfg. I worked for in chemical and power plants. I have had a NIOSH pocket guide to chemical hazards in my work travel case since 1985. I do know about LD 50's. I still suggest that using benzene, breathing coal smoke, and exposing oneself to chemicals without serious thought to the hazards is foolish. I think to say that the world is full of toxics, don't worry about exposing yourself to more is beyond foolish, and borders on criminal. Yes, indeed the world is full of toxics. Yes, the world is a dangerous place. Yes, I would like to live a long, full life. I do not wish to suffer a chemical induced, cancer of the liver death. Can I prevent it? Not for sure, but I can be prudent in my choices, weigh risks and exposures. Benzene exposure in the liquid form is out for me. I will get small exposure from the atmoshere, along with the witchs brew of HAP's from the Louisville environment. I will contimue to weigh in with rants on chemical safety, and general safety. Its what I do. I hope it does not offend. |
| ptree - Sunday, 10/03/04 10:12:19 EDT |
|
ptree, email headed to you |
| Ralph - Sunday, 10/03/04 11:19:40 EDT |
|
Noodles: Hey what's up guys? I'm new to the blacksmithing thing and I think I'm about to make my first attempt at a gas forge. I'm going to buy the T-Rex burner off of Rex Price's page http://www.hybridburners.com/ simply because I dont want to try to whip up something on my own that's handling highly explosive gas! Plus I read that these are very good. But anyway, I'm trying to figuer out what will be best for the shell. I'm going to try to find a simple steel shell about 12" across..not sure how deep, and then I know i need to line it. Now my question is, is castable refractory with ITC-100 painted on it good enough for basic forgeing as well as forge welding? Or do i need to have a ceramic wool on the inside as well? Thanks for any help you guys can give me ;) Noodles |
| - Noodles - Sunday, 10/03/04 11:20:01 EDT |
|
Ptree: When talking about safety to new smiths or even some of us stubborn older smiths, you will never offend me or Jock. Unthinking advice to "don't worry about it, you can't do anything to stop it" is, as you said, foolish at best, criminal at worst. Even if not against the law, it's morally criminal. |
| Paw Paw - Sunday, 10/03/04 11:57:42 EDT |
|
forges: Noodles, castable or ceramic wool? Both are good. BOth have good points and bad points. the castable will be heavy, slow to heat and slow to cool. Slow to cool is good in that once you are to temp you will use less fuel, but slow to heat requires more fuel to heat. Wool on the other hand heats fast but cools fast. Good if you are wanting a portable forge ( you do a lot of demos etc ) You should be able to weld with both. ITC-100 is an IR reflector type coating. It will also help hold the wool together ( not in place but keep it from flying out as particulate ) IN both forges it will help with the heat in the fogre. |
| Ralph - Sunday, 10/03/04 13:46:21 EDT |
|
Advice: Advising people to exercise caution and arm themselves with REAL knowledge is never wrong. I do think that some folks were more than a bit harsh in their judgemental remarks about dloc's earlier posting regarding certain hazards. It is fine to disagree, but using inflammatory phrases like "small minded comment" and "criminal" to categorize another's comments are bound to elicit negative feelings. Since I am the one who said that benzene is no more toxic than household bleach, I suppose I started the whole thread. Mea culpa. (I still think you guys are way overreacting about benzene, though.) The inescapable fact is that EVERYTHING is dangerous if misused. Someone said that water is one solvent that is not dangerous to the human body. Simply not so. That is why IVs use saline, not pure water. Pure water will cause serious imbalances when it dilutes human blood plasma. The cells in your veins won't like it either. Immerse a human in pure water for a sufficient length of time and you will kill him as surely as if you dipped him in poison. Osmotic pressure differential between saline saturated human tissues and pure water will gradually leach the electrolytes out of your victim's body until he has a serious imbalance and his heart stops. Too many people fail to realize that the skin is the largest organ of the human body. Trenchfoot is a a small example of this danger of water to the human body. As ptree said, KNOW the dangers. Most of us don't have the intimate knowledge of chemistry, physics, medicine and other disciplines to fully understand what we are dealing with sometimes. Rather than take the time and energy to learn everything we should, we let others do our thinking for us, in the person of the EPA, NIOSH, OSHA, et al. Unfortunately, even those organizations can be mislead or make errors. Knowing this, they usually try to err on the side of safety, so sometimes they go a bit overboard. That is probably better than being too pollyannaish about dangers, but it can seem a bit oppressive at times. Each of us has to make his own choices, and live (or die) with the consequences of those choices. Informed choices skew the odds in favor of your survival; ignorant choices skew the odds against you. Think of it as "evolution in action." Nothing in this post is intended to harm anyone, and no persons or animals or anything but wayward electrons were harmed in the making of this post. |
| vicopper - Sunday, 10/03/04 14:42:52 EDT |
|
Alright. Thanks for the help Ralph. I think I'm going to use castable with ITC-100 then. I'm not moving the forge anywhere so I wont need to turn it on and off. Now one more question is what would roughly be the biggest size I can have the forge and still be able to maintain the heat I need to forge weld throughout the entire shell. Please note I'll be using a castable refractory as well as ITC-100 and hopefully the T-Rex burner from Rex Price (if i ever get a response). Please list actual open heated space dimensions as well as the entire shell's dimensions. IE: (Open space + refractory) Thanks again! -Noodles |
| - Noodles - Sunday, 10/03/04 16:11:31 EDT |
|
Exposure:: my intention is not to stir the pot...... I started painting houses in my 15th year circa 1979. In 1986 I was diagnosed as having hepatitus type nonA nonB, at this point there was no test for type c hep, long story short......after five years of bad health and a change in carrer path It was discovered I had never had hepatitus but had been poisened by exposure to liquid solvents such as benzene and/or carbon tetrachloride(sp?) thru skin exposure. I consider myself lucky to have walked away from my ignorance and misdiagnosis with a mild case of necrosis of the liver. It could easily have been scerosis and death. My 2 cents |
| lazarus - Sunday, 10/03/04 16:23:31 EDT |
|
Make that, a picture rather than a thousand words :-) |
| lazarus - Sunday, 10/03/04 16:41:32 EDT |
|
On epa, OSHA, and NIOSH standards. It has been said before that OSHA standards are written in blood. I agree in most cases. The NIOSH exposure standards have not been revised basicly since they were first developed in the 70's. The standards for exposure are now well know to be far to loose. Mineral oil exposure in mist is set so high that it would have to rain oil to exceed the standard. I try to do way better than the standard. |
| ptree - Sunday, 10/03/04 19:48:35 EDT |
|
castable versus Kaolwool: I have found that the castable refactory uses up part of your available BTUs... I have much more trouble forge welding in my gas forge after pouring a castable floot into it. (I used to have the problem of pieces welding in the forge while just working...) The more insulating the refactory you use the more BTUs go into the piece, and less go into heating up your forge. The positive side of the castable is that it is very durable, and it does store heat. If I were to use all castable refactory for the bottom of a new forge I would make sure that I had more BTUs than I needed for the area of forge I was building. You NEED atleast part of the forge to be castable, or kiln shelf, or a welding plate, to protect the always more delicate insulative refactories, but go with the most efficient combination of refactories... YMM:-) |
| Fionnbharr - Monday, 10/04/04 01:57:51 EDT |
|
castable vs kaowool: Fionnbharr, That is why you need to design the forge properly. (smile) Not enough burner will do that. That is why for a same given size internal space a castable forge may need more burners initially to get to heat. But once at heat it can work on less. At least that seems to be my experience. Nothing scientific of course, just seat of the pants ops. But I also like my kaowool lined forge. HEats fast, tho I can not get it as hot right now. Not sure why. Needs tweaking. I will get around to it one day. |
| Ralph - Monday, 10/04/04 05:54:32 EDT |
|
Ptree, on exceeding the code: I have a coworker who was getting a house built. One builder was bragging that they built to code and was not amused when he pointed out that code is the *minimum* spec just to have something that doesn't fall over and burst into flames (cf "Swamp Castle") and you really should *exceed* code whenever possible... Saw a nice big thick walled tube for a large gas forge while i was at the Trinity site Saturday... Thomas |
| Thomas P - Monday, 10/04/04 10:45:29 EDT |
|
kaowool vs castable: Kaowool doesnt wear that well in a gas forge. Firstly, unless you are a careful worker, it tends to snag on the work and tear and secondly, propane burns at 3500F while kaowool is rated 2400F. I find the kaowool in my forges turns powdery after a while if I use it to line the inner chamber. IMO kaowool is best used as a second layer to wrap a hard liner of castable or rammable. That being said, kaowool is pretty good and is hands down the best choice for a first forge. It's easy to work (scissors). It's a great insulator and it has very low specific heat (takes very little heat energy to bring it up to temp). Also, the forge will be light and portable Noodles, I strongly recommend you make a copy of Rons Mini Forge (which uses kaowool). Its easy to make and a very useful size. You will be starting with a known, sound design. Gas forges are easy to make and you will likely end up making several. Burners. A T Rex burner is very nice. A Ron Reil EZ burner will work just fine. I have had a few "pops" when lighting forges and lost all the hair on my forearms but never an explosion. Burners are not inclined to explode. Nor have I heard of a smith blowing himself up with a gas forge. If it happens , its not often. By way of comparison, I have several times heard of smiths dying in car wrecks. The main danger from propane is allowing a large quantity to build up, unburned in a room or a cavity. It's heavier than air and will pool. If you have a slow leak in a line that is always pressurized and the propane is pooling say in your crawl space - this is bad. But if the propane is always being consumed by a flame and your tanks are always closed when the forge is unlit, I dont see how you get an explosion. Let me refer you to the *excellent* FAQ titled "Gas Forges" on the anvilfire FAQ page. :) Finally, if you are at high altitude, you might reconsider atmospheric burners vs blown burners |
| - adam - Monday, 10/04/04 10:59:08 EDT |
|
forge insulation cont'd: Getting castable up to temp. I think there are two issues here. One is the specific heat of the refractory. Castable has to soak up a lot more BTUs to get hot and this will mean a longer time and more fuel to get there. Of course, once you get up to temp you will have a large "thermal inertia" and things like opening a door for few seconds to insert a large piece of work are will not chill the forge much. The second issue is itseffectiveness as an insulator - that is, its ability to dam the flow of heat energy thru its walls. If Kaowool and castable both were equally good insulators then, the castable would take longer to get to forging temp, but once it reaches that temp, it shouldnt require more BTUs to keep it there. Unfortunately castable is NOT as good an insulator as kaowool. I have a gas forge in which the inner liner is a hard refractory wrapped in a blanket of kaowool and I find this works very well. Sorry to be so long winded on this topic. I spent the weekend making a new gas forge and these things are on my mind |
| adam - Monday, 10/04/04 11:20:38 EDT |
|
Chamber size: Hey guys quick question. I think after using my castable refractory and everything, my chamber size will be down to a 10 inch diameter by ???in deep. Is 10 inches small enough and then if so, what would be a good depth? right now it's 30 inches which i know is gonna be way too big. Thanks for the help! -Seth |
| Seth - Monday, 10/04/04 12:45:48 EDT |
|
Chambersize: IMO 10" dia is waaay to big unless you running a production shop and have to feed a power hammer. It will be hard to get to welding heat and if you do you will eat up a 20lb bottle in a a couple, three hours (I have a 9" dia forge which I use very rarely and it goes through propane at a hugely expensive rate plus its a struggle to keep the bottles from freezing). I see poorly designed gas forges that run at red or perhaps orange and the owner is struggling to move the steel. The first phase of forging should be done with the steel as hot you can get it w/o burninng - yellow or yellow white. Not only is it easier on the smith , but the steel moves differently and has warm look (even when cold :) ). Finish forging and bending are done at lower temps. A 4" or 5" dia chamber about 9" long - the size of a RR Mini Forge - is a very useful size and easy to heat. If you are concerned about getting large stock into the forge don't be. It took me too long to discover this simple trick, but large pieces can be heated by placing them SIDEWAYS ACROSS THE MOUTH OF THE FORGE. If you set a couple of firebrick to block the mouth but with a 1" gap or so they will heat up and reflect back the heat so effectively that the workpiece may just as well be inside the chamber. I have done welds this way, though it does require running pedal to the metal to get the mouth to welding temp. Usually large pieces only need to go to yellow or orange. With planning you can do your welds early and bend things so that they fit in the forge for welding and then, when finish forging on the straightened piece, lay it across the mouth as described. A LOT of work gets done at the mouth of the forge. IMO you will be much better off with a small manageable design to start rather than building a monster furnace. Just my opinion |
| adam - Monday, 10/04/04 14:15:26 EDT |
|
RE: chambersize: I would have to agree with Adam, a 10" dia forge is a bit large however, I was able to utilize a 12" dia pipe by cutting it longitudinaly(sp?) about 2/3 of the circumference so that what I had was basically a forge 'roof' which I then lined with a 1" layer of kaowool then a layer of cardboard onto which I applied approx 1" of castable refractory. I used a 8" stove pipe wrapped in plastic and set it into/ontop of the castable to hold the form while it set up for a day which also gave me the inside curve to the bottom of the forge 'roof' to help direct the flame in a circular vortex. I sit this on top of hard fire brick . This forge measures 8" across the diameter, about six inches from floor to ceiling and 12" long. I uasually have 2 mongo style burners running for about 15-20 minutes @ 20-25 psi to get a good welding heat going and then I can shut down the farthest burner and maintain the heat with 1 burner @ a very low psi at the regulator( somewhere between 2.5-5 pounds). hope this helps Adam |
| lazarus - Monday, 10/04/04 15:21:58 EDT |
|
Forgot to mention that if you need more floor to ceiling height you can just set the forge roof on a rectangle of loose soft fire bricks to increase the hieght in increments of 2 1/2". |
| lazarus - Monday, 10/04/04 15:26:00 EDT |
|
There are pictures @ the AnvilFire Fotos site in a folder called lazarus's Again HTH Adam |
| lazarus - Monday, 10/04/04 15:27:23 EDT |
|
Gas forge size all depends on what you want to put in it---I've seen ones that a RR car can roll into---tracks built into the floor. I've seen others that I can just get two fingers in. They both have their uses. If you start with a 10" dia and put 2" of kaowool in you now have 6" dia "working room" not excessive to heat and the double layer of wool really helps keep it where you want it. You will probably want a hard firebrick for the floor, perhaps a facing brick that can rest on top of one of the layers of kaowool and have the other snug up against it---you may still want to put a kittylitter dam along the sides if you will be fluxing a lot. As to length---how much will you neeed hot at one time? for knives is usually only a couple of inches. Making scrolls or twisting you may want close to a foot in length---depending on how you do things. I have 2 propane forges a blown single burner in a light shell and an aspirated double burner in a *heavy* shell. The light one's easy to move; but I don't take it out very often. Usually use solid fuel for demo's---the mystique you know...The heavy one is nice cause I can weld things to it for special projects---why not do your twisting *inside* the gas forge? It's heavy enough that it can support an extendable stock rack a foot out from the mouth---which takes care of most of the work I do. It was made from an O2 tank and it's a pain to lug around! Thomas |
| Thomas P - Monday, 10/04/04 15:35:27 EDT |
|
Adam (Lazarus), I *like* those candle sticks. My forge too has a moveable roof (in fact I have several different roofs) stacked up on fire brick. Its very flexible and the chamber can even be reconfigured while operating. Unlike yours mine has a "trough" design so the burner is part of the base which leaves the roof simpler. Thomas, I assumed Seth meant 10" dia *chamber* in a much larger shell. Obviously there are some things for which only a large forge will do. For example welding upp damascus billets the size of RR cars to name one. Ok, Ok - being a smartass :) Of course there are industrial applications for a forge that size. I had just meant to point out that a small forge is surprising versatile and that a 5" dia chamber doesnt restrict you to making pieces that can wholly fit inside. |
| adam - Monday, 10/04/04 16:25:19 EDT |
|
forge size: Ok, folks are saying that a 10" inside dia is rather large. I think it is almost too small. But then I am not making knives. I usually make things with curves etc. SO more space is really needed. Of course to be honest I do most of my forging in a coal or a charcoal forge for that reason. But my home built gasser is made form an old propane tank/bottle from a BBQ. Cut the ends off and had my shell. As it is my working area is actually too small. I also have a store bought NG ( I bought it used from a freind) blown forge. gets real hot but once again the working area is a bit cramped. I just like the openess of a solid fuel fire for most of my projects. BUt as a hobby smith I am not required to be super efficeint. |
| Ralph - Monday, 10/04/04 16:32:24 EDT |
|
Ralph, I have a 8" id by 18" blown gasser, and often find it a challenge to get the large organic sculpture elements in it. That said, I think I will build a smaller gasser, as a demo and small forgeing forge. Should use a lot less gas. We have several forges going surplus at work. Set up for production bar upsetting. Smallest will heat 20, 2.25"bars by about 24" heat lenght at once. The big one will take an oversize lowboy trailer. Needs 6", 8psi gas line. Reasonable offers for where is/as is. |
| ptree - Monday, 10/04/04 17:30:13 EDT |
|
Kaowool and Forge temperatures: Propane burns at a maximum of 2950 F tops, most forges run 2400-2600 and manufacturers do not promise more than 2400 F. This is the reason that higher carbon steels weld well in propane forges but low carbon and wrought which require higher temperatures do not. Kaowool cerablanket though rated for continous use at 2150 F is RATED good to 2400 F and melts at 3200 F. Note that there are many different grades of this product and Inswool and others ARE NOT Kaowool (Kaowool and Cerablanket are trade names of Thermal Ceramics Inc.). There is one rather expense Thermal Ceramics product that has a rated working temperature of 2600 F but you are wasting your time to try to purchase it in less than car loads. ITC-100 is good for working temperatures of up to 4,000 F and melts at 5,000 F. A coating of ITC-100 over Kaowool prevents the surface breakdown that is largely due to oxidation, not the high heat. However, it does protect the Kaowool from the highest surface heat as a physical barrier and IR reflective surface. Many other ridgidizers and coatings do not have this high a rating or the IR reflective properties. ITC claims a 200F reduction is surface temperature due to reflectance in many cases. An ITC-100 coating over the Kaowool prevent snagging on work and the production of dust. Many castable refractories and cements are good up to 3200F and a thin coating of one of these or ITC-200 over Kaowool can make a very durable high efficiency forge lining surface. However, nothing can beat fired refractory bricks for the floor. These are baked at temperatures far exceeding a propane forge and are much stronger than castable which is rarely cured at the necessary temperature to reach their maximum strength. If you want a REALLY hot, coal commonly burns at 3200 F and is the reason that it is easier to forge weld with coal but also the reason you can burn up the work in a minute of inattention. The advantage to gas is that even though you CAN overheat tool steels and can scale things up pretty bad it is impossible to set fire the steel and most run right at the correct forging temperature for low to medium carbon steels. |
| - guru - Monday, 10/04/04 18:31:07 EDT |
|
Adam, Thank you, those are an Iforge demo BTW. I did design the picture plate holders to go with it tho'. Since those pics of the forge where taken I have added an old screw scissor jack from a car which allows me to jack the roof up and create a clamshell type forge for really large pieces. can get local heating on just about any shape this way. Adam |
| lazarus - Monday, 10/04/04 18:50:39 EDT |
|
Gotta crank the heat at that point tho' ;-) |
| lazarus - Monday, 10/04/04 18:53:25 EDT |
|
Forge Size Shape: One of the most flexible LOOKING forges I have seen was an old Swan's forge with the long front door and end ports (like a NC-TOOL Whisper Moma or Forgemaster). The forge had notches cut out between the end ports and door so long pieces could be put in from the side/front and the door closed. Parts that could not be manipulated through the end ports such as a long piece with a scroll or decorative element on the end can easily have the middle heated this way. The thing about gas forges is to be efficient you need different sizes and shapes for different work. Even small S-hooks can require some wrangling in my Whisper Baby. . . One trick Dave Manzer shows in his power hammer how-to tooling video is folding a piece so it fits in the gas forge. It is worked then straightened when finished. |
| - guru - Monday, 10/04/04 18:55:25 EDT |
|
Adam, look at Sachse's book on Damascus Steel and you will see him working a billet of over 1 ton in weight... thomas |
| Thomas P - Monday, 10/04/04 19:05:25 EDT |
|
Propane Flame Temp: I got my info from this source http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/9_422.html and figured 1980C = 3600F. I'd be happy to find out that I am wrong since it would simplify forge design Yeah, I use ITC100 - still snags though Also, I stumbled across this source of 2600F kaowool in small quantities http://www.baileypottery.com/kilns/kilnmaterials.htm#Fiber I just recvd a couple of yards - going to try it in my new forge for the "lid" |
| adam - Monday, 10/04/04 19:22:02 EDT |
|
Kaowool: Ok, I reread Jocks post more carefully - I will try sealing the kaowool with ITC200 and then coating with ITC100. I assumed it was a temperature thing but if its due to oxidation, there is hope of mitigating it. Thomas that would be a sight to see! Also I agree with Ralph. Coal is best and I would use that if I could. |
| adam - Monday, 10/04/04 19:30:25 EDT |
|
Looking for old Tinsmithing tools: Hello Fellas, I am in the market for 18th and 19th century tinsmithing tools, I just conpleted a pre 1850 shop at Old Fort Dodge in Iowa and am looking to fill it up with period tools. Email me if you know of any. Thanks, Jim |
| Highhorse - Monday, 10/04/04 19:34:18 EDT |
|
Jim- try this guy- T.O. Elliot- 918-865-4562 he is in Mannford Ok. Havent talked to him in a while, so I hope this is still a good number. I dont have an email for him. He is a collector, buyer, seller and horsetrader of pre 20th century tinsmithing tools. He either has it, or knows who does, and he is not too awfully far from you. |
| - Ries - Monday, 10/04/04 23:18:58 EDT |
|
I used insulating castable in my latest forge. This stuff is much lighter and insulates about as well as insulating firebrick. The price, about a year ago, was $30 for a 50lb bag. That said, I would probably go with all Kaowool if I do another one. My forge has an arched raisable roof, made out of propane tanks, to let me play with large, or odd-shaped, pieces. But I don't often work with stuff that would scrape the ceiling. My walls are insulating firebricks, to let me move them around, if needed. And the floor is out of the same stuff. This has proven to be plenty tough enough. They tend to crack from heat stress, but basic fireplace mortar is working fine to hold them together. --Marc |
| - MarcG - Tuesday, 10/05/04 08:24:38 EDT |
|
quote of the day: "Sorry I don't have a picture of the finished piece. Went to buy a digital camera, but ended up buying a Tig Welder instead." Bill Epps - introducing iForge Demo #33 |
| adam - Tuesday, 10/05/04 10:52:23 EDT |
|
gasers: Since we're sorta on the the subject, How well does The guru's really stupid burner work in say a 10" by 8" stacked fire brick forge? |
| dragon-boy - Tuesday, 10/05/04 13:25:54 EDT |
|
Insulating Castable: Marc, do you have a brand and a distributor for this material? I am interested I found out that generaly speaking, refractory properties( the ability to with stand hi temps without deformation) are incompatible with good insulation. This because one way to reduce internal stress from temp differences in the material is make it a good conductor and eliminate temp gradients. Ceramics people have their own temp scale called "cones" based on a set of standard ceramic cones) which slump when heated past a certain temp. For example 2280F is "cone 10". Makes for interesting conversations when buying stuff from a ceramics supply store http://www.bigceramicstore.com/Information/ConeChart.html |
| adam - Tuesday, 10/05/04 13:34:38 EDT |
|
Insulating castable: I didn't note the manufacturer, but I did write down IRC-26 as the product name. If I get a chance, I'll look for the bag to see if they put more info on there. One thing that was suggested was to use stainless steel needles in the mix. That was supposed to help bind things when they wanted to crack. So far it's been holding up, about a year now. Some chips off the edges, but the ceiling is pretty much solid. |
| - MarcG - Tuesday, 10/05/04 15:32:42 EDT |
|
Paw Paw, The Better Half says my 03-A3 that I told you about at Quad State came today. Havent been home yet to see it. What is the best way to clean off cosmoline if necessary? |
| - Brian C - Tuesday, 10/05/04 17:08:29 EDT |
|
Reinforcing castable: Many manufacturers recommend using stainless steel machining scrap (long, thin ribbons) or wire for the same purpose, MarcG. I haven't tried this myself but it's supposed to work very well. |
| - T. Gold - Tuesday, 10/05/04 17:21:54 EDT |
|
ss needles: Yeah I have a pile of SS lathe turnings but havent gotten around to using them yet. When my forge designs stablize and I get past the prototype stage, I will build something to last. Nasty stuff those SS turnings - not sure what to cut them with. Prolly just use an old pair of scissors. Marc - thx - I think I will be able to track it down with that info. I had thought of mixing perlite or sawdust into my Mizzou castable |
| adam - Tuesday, 10/05/04 17:50:24 EDT |
|
B2 Design Hammer School: Jock, I like the story on your power hammer school dayz. Well, done. And thanks for the coverage at Troy. |
| - John Larson - Tuesday, 10/05/04 18:18:22 EDT |
|
Brian:: When I got my Garand from the CMP, I used oven cleaner, a brush, and a garden hose to clean off the cosmolene. It worked great, and then after steel wooling the piece, I finished it with Linseed oil. Several coats. Steel wool in between coats with OOOO wool. HTH |
| Bob H - Tuesday, 10/05/04 21:15:56 EDT |
|
Garand: Tomahawks, muzzleloaders and throwing knives. Now a Garand. Did you get the accessory kit that allows firing hand knapped bullets, BobH? I wonder what .30 caliber round would look like chipped out of mahogany obsidian? |
| - Larry - Tuesday, 10/05/04 21:45:21 EDT |
|
Obsidian Slugs: Anybody wanna buy a smoothbore Garand ? |
| - 3dogs - Wednesday, 10/06/04 02:51:09 EDT |
|
Castable: Adam, the perlite will probably melt and turn to glass where it's close to the inside of the forge, but that's probably alright. It will still leave behind air pockets that insulate, similar to the sawdust. I tried a similar mixture, but using Portland cement. That mixture melted and was useless. But your Mizzou should stand up fine. If anyone's interested, I put up a step-by-step of my forge building at http://ironringforge.com/NewForgeSaga/New_Forge_Saga.html |
| - MarcG - Wednesday, 10/06/04 07:58:29 EDT |
|
Perlite: I did that experiment too (portland cement & perlite). It makes a strong light insulator but perlite melts at about 2400F which makes it unsuitable for the inner chamber walls. However as an outer fill layer it's excellent stuff and costs almost nothing. I like your clamshell design. I had thought of doing something like that but then I went with a trough design. My latest forge has a couple of interesting design ideas. If they pan out - and I am optimistic - I will try to post some pix and notes. Marc, I enjoyed your website (actually I had visited it few times already). You and I have come along similar paths. Obsidian bullets? You guys are kidding, right? I mean I know you gun nuts are all bonkers but this too far over the line! Perhaps archeologists will find the remnants of an NRA card in a neolithic grave site? |
| adam - Wednesday, 10/06/04 10:53:54 EDT |
|
Garand: Ok I did a Google on Garand and I see now I have been had. It's some version of the old M1 rifle. When I was in the Civil Defense in Jerusalem they issued us old M1s each with a single clip containing 3 or 4 bullets. With this we were to defend schools against terrorists armed with Kalashnikovs (and full clips) . One day they took us out for "target practice". We got to fire four rounds at a target 50 meters away. My wife was the only one of us to get all four rounds on the target. The rest of us might just as well have been throwing rocks. I'll stick to smithing :) |
| adam - Wednesday, 10/06/04 12:12:26 EDT |
|
perlite: in the one hardware store/home center I checked yesterday, the only perlite I could find is by Miracle Gro and has plant food impregnated in it. Will this bother anything in a refractory mix or should I try to find another source (I suppose it would be cheaper without it too)? For stove cement also, I could only find one kind and that quart tub was only labelled for up to 2100°F. Again, I'll have to do more checking around. |
| Elliott Olson - Wednesday, 10/06/04 12:38:31 EDT |
|
Perlite: Avoid any additives. Plant nurseries always have Perlite and Vermiculite too which has very similar properties. McMaster-Carr (online store for machine shop supplies) sell a 3000F furnace cement. Also ClayPeople and Bailey Pottery. In general, the ceramic supply houses cater to a temperature range similar to that used in forging steel. |
| adam - Wednesday, 10/06/04 13:39:39 EDT |
|
Knapping: BOB H, Could you email me your snail mail address. I cut an article out of the paper that I wanted to send you on Flint Ridge in Ohio. |
| SGensh - Wednesday, 10/06/04 13:39:54 EDT |
|
Pearlite---ther's a mountain of it a couple miles thataway from here. You can see the dust from the pearlite mine colouring the mountainside. We had a severe hailstorm here, Socorro NM, yesterday. My 10 year old smithing truck looks like everybody at Quad-State was trying out large ballpeins on it. I'm lucky in that my Windshield is only cracked and that on the passenger's side. Most folks at work completely lost at least 1 window and several lost front, back and moonroof. One colleague ownes a saturn and the hail punched holes through the body---I should have saved a lot of it for winter to fire from my 2" bore cannon... Luckily the storm was concentrated in Socorro and so my new shop only saw marble sized hail, it's still dry and purdy looking. The house is OK too... Thomas |
| Thomas P - Wednesday, 10/06/04 14:51:14 EDT |
|
refractories: Have you looked at E.J. Bartells or A.P. Green ? Both have good refractories. It is what they do. Not knocking places like McMaster Carr etc, but I tend to think that if you want a specific item go to the folks who make it. Cut out the middle man. Usually it is cheaper. I got my ramable refractory for about 25.00 for 55 lbs ( i got 2 boxes ). Of course I have the advantage of having a outlet less than 20 miles form my home so I was able to pick it up in person and save on shipping. Point is since you are here on anvilfire you are using a computer. SO you can use all the info we have suggested coupled with a bit of a google ( or your favorite search ) search and find ALL SORTS of refractory info. Now that I think of it I need ot use up my 110 lbs of refractory.... before my wife remembers I bought it. |
| Ralph - Wednesday, 10/06/04 15:49:20 EDT |
|
refractories: Ralph is right. If you need a box of firebrick or a bag of castable these guys are the right address. Especially since the salesman will be very knowledgeable about the material. http://www.hwr.com/ http://www.ejbartells.com/branch_locations.htm I have ordered from local distributors of both firms and found them friendly helpful and the freight to be reasonable. This despite the fact that my order was basically nuisance size. However if you need a just a pint or a quart of something like furnace cement then a retailer like McMaster or Bailey Pottery is a better choice |
| adam - Wednesday, 10/06/04 16:25:37 EDT |
|
pints?????: Bah! We are blacksmiths! And we follow Tim The Tool Mans credo! More is better! So what is a Pint? Oh wait that is what you get at the local pub ( non-virtual ) (grin) If you are getting stuff in that small of quanitiy then you need to find a local to you dealer. As Adam said almost every area will have a ceramic supply place. Shoot there are at least 2 or 3 within 40 miles of me. Plus Bartell's... (grin) As well as another place I can get ceramic fiber board. I am set..... Now if I could just get a decent coal and charcoal supply locally...... |
| Ralph - Wednesday, 10/06/04 19:19:15 EDT |
|
Ralph, I don't seem to have as many ceramic suppliers as you, but E. Kentucky and W. Virgina, home of very good coal is two hours away! |
| - ptree - Wednesday, 10/06/04 19:23:28 EDT |
|
Garand revisited:: Actually, I probably used Tung Oil on the stock. And no, Larry, I ain't got no Mahogony Obsidian bullets, tracers or otherwise. Man, them Caintuck guys sure are smart alecks! :] |
| Bob H - Wednesday, 10/06/04 19:42:02 EDT |
|
not all of us caintuck guys are smart alecks! Most of us are just plain smart! And I happen to live near the source of wyndott flint! |
| ptree - Wednesday, 10/06/04 20:24:23 EDT |
|
Message for Ralph and a Clipart question--Hey Ralph, I picked up everything I need to make my nail header according to your instructions. Try to get to it this weekend. I'll let you know how it turns out. Also, does anyone have any blacksmith clipart ? I'm looking for a business card logo and the ones on the web are all copyrighted. Thanks, Mike |
| - Mike House - Wednesday, 10/06/04 23:08:04 EDT |
|
hail: Thomas P, last year there was a hailstorm 30-40 miles SW from here, horizontal hail!! The wind side of houses really got pelted, siding and windows damaged. On one house, vinyl siding that was claimed to be nearly 'indestructible' was just shredded. |
| Elliott Olson - Thursday, 10/07/04 01:58:31 EDT |
|
Mike, in the little searching I just did, much of the clipart is copyrighted, but some of it still says free (try adding "free" to your search). |
| Elliott Olson - Thursday, 10/07/04 02:15:20 EDT |
|
The HAIL, you say !!??: My daughter's house and cars got hammered pretty good up in ABQ too, Thomas. |
| - 3dogs - Thursday, 10/07/04 02:37:16 EDT |
|
Clipart: Mike House; check out the Countryside Agency, (formerly known as COSIRA) In addition to some great smithing info, they have a group of weather vane silhouettes, some with smithing themes. |
| - 3dogs - Thursday, 10/07/04 02:43:46 EDT |
|
Hail, yup Albuquerque got it the day before we did, the local insurance agent says it's widespred enough that it may be a year before all the body work gets taken care of. Shoot I kind of like the "hammered" look to my truck if they would just get the glass replaced. As for clear coat---I think the dust keeps it covered... luckily I can still drive my truck; giving my boss a lift to ABQ this evening to meet his wife in their other car and start their vacation...His car is stuck in the parking lot at work till they tow it for hail repair. Thomas |
| Thomas P - Thursday, 10/07/04 11:20:27 EDT |
|
Ifn anyone wants to see the car-nage out this way New Mexico Tech has posted some pics www.nmt.edu/hail/index.htm look at "Photos taken by Community Members" #10 is a nice set. Thomas |
| Thomas P - Thursday, 10/07/04 18:41:47 EDT |
|
Spybots: Awhile back Paw Paw posted an address for a site that had free Spybot downloads. I had it on my old computer and it worked great. Unfortunately, a Trojan slipped through and it cost more to have it fixed than it was worth. I would like to use the Spybot ware again, but I lost the address. Anybody out there got it lying around? Thanks |
| - Larry - Thursday, 10/07/04 19:55:26 EDT |
|
Spybot S&D: Larry, Try this link: www.spybot.info/en/index.html |
| vicopper - Thursday, 10/07/04 21:20:10 EDT |
|
Safety rants: Safety rants are great..... when they are correct, factual and stripped of emotion or self importance. When they are not correct, they do considerable disservice and scare people away from useful processes and materials. Fear is the lack of knowledge. If you are fearful, fix that with knowledge. Do not drag others down with your fear. This country (and the standard of living we now enjoy temporarily) was made great by people who were willing to learn and apply what can be dangerous processes. They used them wisely in many cases. Some not so wisely to be sure. The abuses were mostly done by the greedy. Greed and the willingness to abuse others is far more dangerous than most processes and materials. But we celebrate it. We are told MBA training is good. MBA training is all about manipulation of respect and reality. We concentrate on the safety exceptions in many cases and legislate to the extreme. We are exceedingly hypocritical about others. We now have entire self serving industries and government entities to tell us what we should not be expected to work with. And others around the world are using those same processes, safely in most cases, and jobs are flying away. But we'll be a safe starving place. Not really, but some will point that way. Legislation and rules will NEVER ASSURE safety. Only personal knowledge can assure safety. Education is not an option. |
| - Tony - Thursday, 10/07/04 22:07:27 EDT |
|
That should more clearly be...: Education is not optional. |
| - Tony - Thursday, 10/07/04 22:10:08 EDT |
|
For example:: "Hey Alfred Nobel, that stuff could blow up on ya and maybe put out your eye, or something, fer cryin' out loud!" |
| - 3dogs - Friday, 10/08/04 08:55:00 EDT |
|
Have acquired an old wooden broom machine that winds the straw the handle, has a kicker wheel and all the orginal cast iron pieces, it is in good condition and useable, any idea on the value, thanks |
| - Steve - Friday, 10/08/04 10:48:59 EDT |
|
3Dogs, Alfred lost a number of family members through accidental explosions and was so horrified over the use of his "safe explosives for mining" in warfare that he created the Nobel prize. He might not be the best one to use as an example. I try to live a dangerous life safely. I do many things that horrify my co-workers; but I do draw the line at some things. Shoot when I was lifting the big anvils using the roof trusses I even put in jackposts "just in case". Thomas |
| Thomas P - Friday, 10/08/04 12:22:08 EDT |
|
BOOM!: Point conceded, Thomas. Now, In the spirit of the second half of your post, the word "shoot" reminded me of some of the archival stuff, and a faster method of lifting your anvils. (ye grynne) |
| - 3dogs - Friday, 10/08/04 16:27:05 EDT |
|
Taketh thou of the powder of the black 3 handfulls and placeth it admist the cavity that hidest beneath thy anvil with care of the utmost that it not rise before times and smiteth thou sorely...Hey Y'all, watch this!!!! Hmm my neighbor does have a big field next door, maybe next 4th of july I will have to contravene the statuates laid down by our Mother ABANA... Thomas |
| Thomas P - Friday, 10/08/04 17:23:53 EDT |
|
Spybots: Thanks Vicopper. I'll check it out a little later.Hope you got all your rasps and steel through security without too many problems. |
| - Larry - Friday, 10/08/04 19:53:09 EDT |
|
Tony, I would point out that the government usually has made laws about safety and building and fire codes in response to public outcry AFTER a tragedy has occurred. Think the Beverly Hills Supper Club,The Shirtwaist company fire, hexavalent chrome used as an anti fouler in water towers, PCB's, methyl chloride and tri-chlor. With the exception of the shirtwaist co. fire all these things occurred or were found to be dangerous in my lifetime. The federal rule for right to know, (haz-com) has been a royal pain in the workplace for employeers. Most written citation in most states. It has changed the workplace. No longer are people handed a bucket of something and told to wipe down a machine with bare hands and a rag.(At least not legally) Now the worker has the right to review the material safety data sheet. The fact that the MSDS tells the worker that the solvent he was just handed has a flash point of 12F, a boiling point of 176F, and targets the central nervous system, the bone marrow, eyes, skin, blood and causes leukemia as well as having an IDLH of 500ppm and a lel of 1.2% with the uel being 7.8%. Now the worker in my shop, who sat thru the training, and paid even a little attention now knows that the solvent has a low boiling point, a very low flash point, and a lower explosion limit of 1.2% in air. He knows that in a poorly vented area that a concentration of 500 parts per million is immediatlty dangerous to life and health. He knows that a concentration of 1.2% in air will explode if exposed to a spark. And he knows the organs that this chemical will attack. The msds will also tell him the types of personell protection equipment that will protect him. Is this overkill? Is this legislated overprotection? Is this depending on the government to protect us from ourselves? Are others working safely without this knowledge? I work as a company safety and environmental guy. I speak with some experience that the haz-com rules are a pain. We have over 600 MDSD on file and add a new one every time a new chemical comes into the shop. We have MSDS on steel. We have MSDS on paint, grinding wheels, on cutting tool steel, and on the stretch wrap we send the finished parts out in. Big pain to train, every year, and maintain these files. Big cost. Is it worth it? Yes! Do you think most companies would do this on their own? I worked in industry prior to the Haz-com rules, as a laborer, and the above scenario happened to me. But no MSDS, and I washed down metal prior to painting with MEK, Benzene, Naptha, and other solvents of unknown type. Bare hands, no respirator, no special ventalation, no splash goggles, no nothing. By the way the chemical described in the MSDS is Benzene. |
| ptree - Friday, 10/08/04 20:43:36 EDT |
|
Answers to ptree: "No longer are people handed a bucket of something and told to wipe down a machine with bare hands and a rag." Not true. Happens every day and I think you know it. Driven by greed and the willingness to abuse in most cases. Good for you if it doesn't happen by you. MSDS, safety training, and right to know? Good stuff. It is Education. It is not the legislation that improves the situation, it is the education. Education is not dependent on legislation. If your (and my) parents didn't buy all the crap the media and commercials rammed down their throats (greed and willingness to abuse on the part of the advertisers and the media they support) you (and I) would have been taught not to use an unknown to you like benzene with bare hands. If we make it, they will buy it. If we make it, they will buy it. If they buy it, we are justified in making it. If they buy it, we are justified in making it..... The greedy businessmans mantra. The weakness of human nature. Legislation is treating the symptom, not the cause. The cause is greed and willingness to abuse in most cases. Not treating the cause is inefficient. Until those whose greed and willingness to abuse are punished directly, and not allowed to hide behind a corporation, the problem will still exist. Citations are not effective unless the stockholders see the effect. And then we just shuffle the MBA's anyway. No real improvement is gained. The reality of environmental and safety in business is that unless you do something REALLY dumb, you just hire your legal team to make it go away. I've seen it personally so many times it makes me ill. Big business legal team makes the government regulation people roll over and say please don't hit me, will you rub my belly if I promise to go away? Unless or course a politician thinks he/she can expand his/her power base by prosecuting. I still wonder who Martha Stewart pissed off. And we pay for all of it in the price of the things we buy. Business runs government because the apathetic populace does not. Environmental and safety companies lobby and influence government for their benefit. More greed. The fact that government doesn't react until after the fact of a disaster reinforces the point very well. Take tobacco as an example. Trust the government to look out for you? Be my guest. Historically, the government has done a very poor job. Not just in our recent society. Again, the problem is greed and willingness to abuse or allow abuse. I'll educate myself, thank you. As a safety person, the education you may do is good. But I personally, do not want your position to exist as it does. A necessary evil to the corporation. I don't want to pay for treating the symptom. I tell the same to the many personal friends I have in the safety and environmental business. One of my best friends is manager of safety, workmens comp and environment for a multibillion dollar international company. (geez, that sounds like self importance) They don't like it either. Tomorrow, I'll be on a roof pounding nails with no less than 6 engineers (if they all show up) whose job is environmental and safety compliance. And ALL of them recognize where the real problem lies. How many anchored safety harnesses do you think will be used putting that roof on? Would companies do it on their own? Damn right they would if they KNEW they would personally go to jail for abusing others. But we have this nifty profession called lawyers who can protect the abusers from the punishment they rightly deserve. All it takes to get away with it is money. But the greed provides that. I know from past experience trying to correct you when you incorrectly slammed hydraulics, and watching you have to have the last word many times here, that you will not let this go. Have at it. Those who don't get it at this point, won't. And you are welcome to your opinion. I'm just sick of paying for treating the symptom, not the cause. The point of the earlier post, again, is that potentially dangerous materials and processes can be used in non dangerous ways. IF you know what you are doing. IF you are educated. Regulations and legislation do not make work safe. They drag us down. Except the lawyers and politicians, that is. |
| - Tony - Friday, 10/08/04 23:12:19 EDT |
|
Legislation = rules. Rules violated, and caught= fines. Fines show up on the bottom line. Small yes. Do it several times and the fines get very big, and show on the bottom line. This gets the greedy to notice, and is the whole point. A criminal is a criminal is a criminal. Lawyers get murders off too. Still not right. |
| ptree - Saturday, 10/09/04 09:31:01 EDT |
|
Finally building my gas forge...: Alright guys! I got all the stuff for my forges. I'm building both gas and coal. =D I couldn't decide which would be better so i decided to have both. The guy at the refractory place made me a deal and sold me 150 pounds of castable refractory, a box of 25 soft insulating fire brick, and a big roll of ceramic wool. I'm using an old propane tank for the gas forge (it's a little longer than BBQ 20pound tanks). Now, what order should these be in for my forge? Should i use castable inside, then wool, then firebricks for the bottom? or should i do all cast inside and wrap wool outside the whole thing? If it was outside the castable, would it have any effect? orrr??? Any help would be appreciated! Thanks! |
| - Seth - Saturday, 10/09/04 14:34:14 EDT |
|
building forges: Seth if it were me, I would make the order as follows. Inside out castable wrapped with wool. The soft fire brick can bu used under the whole forge to insulate the table ( or other surface) form any heat. Also you can use the brick to make a wall in from and behind the forge opening. Soft fire brick probably will not hold up well in the forge itself. Just what I would do. |
| Ralph - Saturday, 10/09/04 14:47:28 EDT |
|
Forge: Hmm sounds good. Thanks for the help =) |
| - Seth - Saturday, 10/09/04 18:10:03 EDT |
|
Gas forge: The castyable is the most durable of the materials, but the least insulating value. The soft firebrick is in the middle, and the Kaowool is the best insulating but least durable. So, you want the inner chamber walls and floor to be castable, about 1" thick or so. Then use the Kaowool outside the castable to get the insulating value. 2" thickness of wool over the castable will be about right. The soft firebrick are fine for using to close off the ends, just make a shelf to stack them on so you can adjust the opening sizes. Another useful idea is to make a removeable floor liner for the forge out of castable. That way, when it gets eaten up by flux, you just replace it easily instead of relining the whole forge. |
| vicopper - Saturday, 10/09/04 21:40:37 EDT |
|
castable part two: BTW a good friend of mine made a gasser using a Hi Phosphate refractory. This was several years ago. ANd he says that so far the refractory is just laughing at the flux. He used Pyramid Air Set, but unfortualtely it is not made any more. |
| Ralph - Saturday, 10/09/04 22:36:05 EDT |
|
Risk, fines & education: I broke my own pronouncement for which I apologize. 1) Risk is relative and must always be kept in relative perspective. Water toxicity is a fairly common poisoning. You see it in hospitals, emergency medicine, ultra-endurance exercise and war. It is the result of giving a severely dehydrated person too much water in too short of a period of time. It screws up virtually every system in the body and is rapidly fatal. But yet, I'm not willing to forgo my daily ration because I am truly addicted to it. 2) Tony is absolutely right about education. Pharmaceutical manufacturers have to meet a set of regulations collectively known as cGMP's (current Good Manufacturing Practices). Abbott's last fine for violating cGMP requirements at a plant level was $800 million (yes, $800 million). This is after some "smaller" fines had no effect. What has gotten them is not the money but the fact that they had to hire a proctor that reports directly to the FDA. The proctor is totally responsible for education of everyone in the plant - the plant manager, the line worker, the janitor, the secretary - everyone who sets foot in the plant. Education changes the mindset of the individual and the culture of the organization. (I should note for those that use Abbott products that this fine was not for a violation of regulations that were directly related to the safety of the drug(s)produced per se or of the workers; but to the "height of the safety barrier".) 3) Skin is a major organ and without it, you die fast. It is designed to be a barrier to a hazardous world. If we assign a value of 1 to your skin surface area (square meters), the surface area of your intestinal tract will be ~1000 and the surface area of your respiratory tract will be ~1,000,000. This little bit of trivia defines why people worry so much about inhalation risks. |
| - dloc - Sunday, 10/10/04 01:35:05 EDT |
|
dloc: Good points, every one. Thanks for posting that. Too many people have so little understanding of human anatomy and what makes us tick that they fail to appreciate certain risks and/or overrate others. As always, education is the best answer; factual information is our best defense. |
| vicopper - Sunday, 10/10/04 08:17:26 EDT |
|
Dloc, The high risks from inhalation of toxics are very well pointed out in your post. An interesting way to do that that I can use in training the workers in my plants. I think it meshs well in understanding the NIOSH standards for airborne vapors and mists. Got a good comparison for absorbtion rates of the three tissue types? |
| ptree - Sunday, 10/10/04 12:39:16 EDT |
|
Forge Update: I got my new forge up and running this weekend and despite a few mistakes it's working better than I hoped. This is a trough style forge but the burn chamber is very small, about 4" dia and about 6" deep and its filled with firebrick rubble. The actual working chamber is assembled out of loose bricks and kaowool pads (covered with ITC200) to suit the work. This configuration can be rearranged while the forge is running. The burner tube is 1" stainless blown with a small furnace blower. I dont think a venturi burner would work owing to the back pressure from the brick rubble. The burner dia is prolly too large for this forge. I might switch to 3/4". The burn chamber is cast from Mizzou about 1" thick and wrapped in 2" of Kaowool. The mizzou works great. I made paper mache mold for the inner cavity and baked the cast mizzou in the oven at 150F till it set up. Very easy. Seems impervious to hot flux. The brick rubble is intended to help with mixing and ignition. Propane forges generally have a mixing problem - this togetgher with the fact that propane tends not to burn completely unless its first cracked by preheating means results in inefficiency and also a lot of scaling of the work. A suggestion: as an experiment, make a small pile of brick rubble (walnut sized pcs) in the center of your propane forge floor. When the forge gets up to temp you will likely see a significant increase in performance. Anyway, this little trough forge cruises at high welding heat, generates very little scale on the work and is very economical on the gas. Mistakes. Mixing perlite into outer refractory was just plain stupid. In the area around the burn chamber, the perlite melts and turns to a sticky glass which glues down the fire bricks and kaowool. Sawdust would have been a better mixer , I think. The 3000F furnace cement from McMaster Carr turns gummy and starts to slump and flow. Also, flux melts it like kaowool. Finally, in a senior moment, I cut the stock ports at the wrong angle so now I have dragon's breath flowing over the burner controls and melting the little plastic pressure gauge. A shield of 18 ga SS plate helps with that problem :) I plan to post some pix soon as I get the time. My second son, Daniel is getting married this weekend in CA and I am a bit preoccupied. |
| adam - Monday, 10/11/04 12:08:18 EDT |
|
oversized drifts: My apologies to all who expressed interest. I havent gotten to this yet. Quenchcrack suggested the possibility of the holes actually shrinking when heated, owing to the expansion of the surrounding stock. I believe this is not the case but before ordering, I want to check my calculations by drilling some holes in steel and heating it. I hope to do this soon. |
| adam - Monday, 10/11/04 12:15:06 EDT |
|
The Rubble-Adamroaster sounds like a fun project. Some furnaces depend on porous firebrick and other ceramics to distribute heat, hence the name of a former employer of mine, Surface Combustion. Stay in touch with Frank; box on the way. To you and your family, and especially Daniel and his bride, a rousing MAZEL TOV !!!!!!!! |
| - 3dogs - Monday, 10/11/04 13:26:51 EDT |
|
Looking to buy damascus round bar stock: Using high nickel steel like 4340, or 8620, and a low carbon steel 1 1/16 - 1 1/8 round x 8 or 10" however long you can make it? Patern may be simple WOOD GRAIN 40 -50 layers running the length of the bar. NOT TOO TIGHT OF A PATTERN, Bars must be concentric enough to be worked on a lathe. Open for bids / doing test market and plan to need a lot of bar stock may need more than one source or can you do it all? email me w/ questions / price ranges. Contracts later. Thanks in advance for your bid and interests. ( Ready to buy now.) David Griffis Nationwide Inc. or call 888-634-7278 x 219 leave msg evenings 909-967-3287 |
| David Griffis - Monday, 10/11/04 13:32:09 EDT |
|
Looking to buy damascus round bar stock: Using high nickel steel like 4340, or 8620, and a low carbon steel 1 1/16 - 1 1/8 round x 8 or 10" however long you can make it? Patern may be simple WOOD GRAIN 40 -50 layers running the length of the bar. NOT TOO TIGHT OF A PATTERN, Bars must be concentric enough to be worked on a lathe. Open for bids / doing test market and plan to need a lot of bar stock may need more than one source or can you do it all? email me w/ questions / price ranges. Contracts later. Thanks in advance for your bid and interests. ( Ready to buy now.) David Griffis Nationwide Inc. or call 888-634-7278 x 219 leave msg evenings 909-967-3287 |
| David Griffis - Monday, 10/11/04 13:33:03 EDT |
|
RUBBLE-ROASTER: ADAM; I have no idea whatsoever how your name wound up in the middle of the subject header on that last post. |
| - 3dogs - Monday, 10/11/04 13:36:02 EDT |
|
Rubble Roaster!: Been looking for a catchy name - thats it! :) |
| adam - Monday, 10/11/04 18:13:11 EDT |
|
Tony- I agree with you that education is paramount to safe working environments, and I agree that it is essential that the individual take charge of his own safety. But I cannot agree that education is not dependant on legislation. It is a historical fact that business regards education as the enemy, and has fought it every step of the way, and there would be no education in this country, on just about any level, without legislation requiring it. Before government mandated education on the primary and secondary level, there was very little of it- companies were quite happy to hire illiterate workers, as they complain less. In every industry, there are recent (in the last 50 to 75 years) of companies doing their darndest to keep employees from learning of the dangers of their jobs, or of safer ways to do things. Up where I live, companies actually did shoot employees (with guns) who complained- and I seem to remember old Henry Ford doing similar things. So while I am a businessman and a capitalist, I have zero faith in the marketplace protecting workers. It only happens here in the US because of legislation. And in many countries where they do not have legislation, it still doesnt happen. By the way, I got a couple of safety harnesses you can borrow if you need em.... |
| - Ries - Monday, 10/11/04 20:32:52 EDT |
|
Ries/Education: Ries, allow me to rephrase.... I don't need no stinking government to learn! grin. That is what I meant by "education is not dependent on legislation". I'll concede that the right legislation does make it far easier to learn. But I will not agree that legislation is required. Many of the apathetic populace will want it that way, but that sad fact does not make it right. If there is one thing I don't mind paying taxes for, it is education. I see education as the only thing that has a chance of maintaining the standard of living in this country. Otherwise, and except for, "It only happens here in the US because of legislation." I agree with everything you said. Especially "I have zero faith in the marketplace protecting workers." I did not mean to suggest I have faith in the marketplace. I have just about zero faith in the marketplace to serve the public as it is structured and legislated. The greed seems to get bolder every day. Maybe with instant communication, it just seems that way. The keeping down of the people does indeed continue. For the reasons you cite. China is a good example. The communist party members realize this and are doling out freedoms as slow as they can while still maintaining control of the cheap, but hard working labor. So learned from observation and a sharp young female Chinese communist party member with bad acne and a nice butt. A prime point of mine is that we need to recognize these facts and be self reliant and SELF THINKING as well as self teaching. Those who rely on others to lead them will continue to be led to slaughter. Slaughter being defined in degrees of course. grin. Only knowlege will set you free. Cliche', but I believe it. I was thinking the other day that sites like this are a prime good thing in the education arena. Most "education" I speak of is not acquired sitting at a desk facing a blackboard. Good discussion. No worries on the safety harnesses. The only thing that fell off the roof was my 25 ounce ergo handled California framing hammer. It's kind of cheating being a sometime smith and roofing with friends who are not. Even my meager experience gives much better than average hammer control. I put the roofing nails down in two hits. A couple of the other pink shirt wearers did whack their thumbs though. And two of them refused to come on the roof. They cut books and flashing on the ground. Yes, we laugh at each other almost as much as others do us. Not many things funnier than engineers playing at tradesmen. And then we drink beer. |
| - Tony - Monday, 10/11/04 22:36:44 EDT |
|
You know I am at least halfway kidding- And I wasnt meaning you need laws to learn- nor did I- I went to college a couple of times, but it didnt take either time- I dont have a degree of any kind. But in general I think that Democracy and Capitalism are not the same thing, although sometimes they are confused. The one needs to be used to throttle back the other, else you are talking about cancer. I believe strongly in both of em. But I also think rules are sometimes needed, and unfortunately only the government, which is really all of us agreeing, can implement them. I built a big treehouse type thing on my property, and the roof is galvanized sheet, about 24 feet to the eaves, maybe 30 to the peak. Framing is welded rectangular tube, so the peak of the hipped roof is a finial that includes a ring about 6" in diameter of 5/8" round, perfect for clipping off a safety harness to, and believe me, me and the boys wore em. And slipped several times, but the rope wasnt long enough for us to go off the edge. That job, I wouldnt have done without em. But I hate rules, probably more than you do. I will only put on steel toed boots when ordered to by someone who controls my cash inflow. As a father and an employer, however, I make and enforce safety rules, trying to always educate why at the same time. |
| - Ries - Tuesday, 10/12/04 02:20:32 EDT |
|
OxyAcetylene torch question...: Hey guys it's me again. Just wanted to see if anyone knows anything about oxyacetylene torchs. I think i'd like to get one for cutting and maybe some welding. I've found a few kits on ebay, particularly the Victor Oxy/Acetylene Cutting/Welding Torch Kit. Here's the link to it.. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=12578&item=3845023356&rd=1 Now I'm starting to try to look around for the gas, and i've found some places near me. My question is, are there different size fittings for each bottle? It appears to be that way, but maybe I'm wrong. Any general info on oxyacetylene torches would be really helpful. Thanks! -Seth |
| - Seth - Tuesday, 10/12/04 14:32:47 EDT |
|
OA: OA torch is extremely useful. There are good deals to be had on ebay - I bought my OA torch there. IMO buy a *complete* new set with a good name brand Victor/ Harris/ Smith. I think you can get a victor set for about $150 retail if you shop around (sorry I cant get to your ebay item right now). Also find out whats popular in your area. You dont want to own a Harris torch in an area where all the welding shops only carry Victor. Except for the mini tanks, the gas fittings are standard - Acetylene uses a LH thread like other fuel gases. Anyway, its not a big deal to swap out the cylinder nut on the regulator. Most people find it easiest to just lease the tanks from the gas supplier. If you own the tank you are responsible for getting it tested periodically and if it fails then you have to buy a new one. |
| adam - Tuesday, 10/12/04 15:43:26 EDT |
|
Awsome. Yeah most of these victor kits are going for around $60 + $25 shipping with everything included. Thanks for the info! |
| Seth - Tuesday, 10/12/04 15:55:43 EDT |
|
Seth,: You can do far better in the long run by buying your torch outfit from a local dealer. You might pay a bit more in the beginning, but you'll be getting service from them that you can't get over the internet. |
| Paw Paw - Tuesday, 10/12/04 15:59:54 EDT |
|
On cultivating a local dealer---welding equipment *dealer*! As an example of what a good relationship can do for you. I bought 10,000 pounds of wrought iron once---the tank from the old state pennitentiary's water tower. It was delivered fairly mangled and in pieces to a friends work place and we chopped it into managable pieces with O-A. My local dealer let me "borrow" the large tanks I needed for days long O-A cutting and I only had to pay for the gas used---a big savings on having to refill smaller tanks several times a day or rent the big ones just for the one job! Thomas |
| Thomas P - Tuesday, 10/12/04 17:15:55 EDT |
|
One more vote for buying from your local dealer. I have had my shop in 3 different cities in the last 20 years, and in each case I have had local welding supply places that were incredible. They deal with the stuff every day, so they know what works and what doesnt. They have parts, they have supplies, and they know who has that tool you dont. Mine have all rented equipment as well- I dont own a gas drive welder- I rent one for 30$ a day. I cannot count the number of times they have given me stuff for free- now granted, I have a business, and spend several hundred dollars a month, but they are nice to everyone. Where I live, you own your own tanks, but you only own the a "virtual" tank- that is, I always own a tank, but the exact tank varies- I take in an empty, and trade it for a "customer owned" full. This is the best system, but it seems to be only found on the west coast. Other places you have to lease tanks. But whichever system they use where you live, you will have to deal with a welding supply store, as you cannot get acetylene to go thru your dsl connection. There are tons of discount starter sets from victor and smith- but some are really mickey mouse. Another advantage of buying locally is you can hold it in your hand, and get an honest opinion if it is right for you. I have owned both Smith and Victor, and they are both good- I prefer Victor, because the male threads are on the body, not the tip, unlike smith. When you drop a smith tip, you can ding the threads. I also prefer the Brass color to the chrome plated smiths. But they are both good. Avoid imports and no names. Stick with something that is stocked locally, for parts and tips. |
| - Ries - Tuesday, 10/12/04 19:11:49 EDT |
|
Larry, Having knee surgery tomorrow. Now that I will have some time off to go after it, the beer cheese population in central KY is in jeopardy. Tyler still wont eat hot wings. :) |
| Brian C - Tuesday, 10/12/04 20:03:55 EDT |
|
My local welding boutique owner could not care less if I live or die. So what? I don't care if he does, either. I don't want to marry him. All I want is oxygen, acetylene, rods, parts. When I need them. Do not buy anything from anybody that cannot be replaced or repaired by them. That means you absolutely must buy name brand. Proprietary-- Craftsman (Harris via Sears) for example-- is a pain in the ass. I have had great luck with Harris its own self, and with Miller. No hassle, no squirming, just help. Nothing but pro quality help always. There is no free lunch with this stuff. Yes, I've bought second hand gear, and I have rebuilt junkyard gear, and I have been lucky. So far. But: why take a chance if you don't absolutely have to? |
| Sebastian Chippinghammer - Tuesday, 10/12/04 20:14:39 EDT |
|
Tanks and Learnin: Ries, we agree. Sometimes I get a little serious about the education and personal responsibility and big inefficient brother government thing. I have the same "virtual owned tank" setup you describe, in Wisconsin. I own all but one of my tanks. But I have never seen a new tank. I used to never have to pay a retest fee. But now, with more competition, the welding suppliers charge a nominal fee to retest my virtual owned tanks every 5 years. Leasing works out to pretty close to the same cost. When I upgrade to a bigger tank, I pay the current purchase price difference. Just did that recently with acetylene. One guy said I couldn't have a big acetylene tank. The next guy said sure, want to take it with you now? Rules are flexible. grin. Be careful of the cheap "victor" sets on ebay. Many of them are "victor compatible" but are NOT made by Victor/Thermadyne. |
| - Tony - Tuesday, 10/12/04 22:32:57 EDT |
|
The cheap Victor torch sets seem to be made by somebody in Mexico and sold under the Victor/Thermadyne name. I have one, and it is no where near the quality that my much older Victor made in the USA torch is. Just doesn't have nearly as nice a balance and feel, and the valves are tweaky compared to the older ones. Your local welding supply is the place to buy a torch set, even if the price is 50% more for the SAME set. You NEED the support that only they guy who sold it to you can give. If everybody buys from ebay and big box hardware houses, your local guy goes belly up and you're left with no support. Support the guys who support you. You can be damn sure that Home Despot and eBay aren't ever going to buy from you OR recommend you to someone who calls looking for a craftsman. Your local supplier will do just that, believe me. |
| vicopper - Tuesday, 10/12/04 23:24:26 EDT |
|
That's nice when you have a local dealer. For me, the "local" welding dealers are 120-160 miles away (east, south or southwest -- north 10 miles is Canada, don't want the hassle of transporting across the border). I'll go with one of those "local" ones if I decide to get my own torch. meanwhile, I can borrow Dad's torch back from my farmer uncle if I need it. |
| Elliott Olson - Wednesday, 10/13/04 01:33:04 EDT |
|
Anyone from Hawaii wanting to give lessons?: I really want to be a blacksmith when I'm older. I want to attend lessons. |
| - Julian - Wednesday, 10/13/04 02:08:58 EDT |
|
Lessons for Julian: Julian: Yes. Drop me an email (click on my name below) and we can discuss it. |
| - T. Gold - Wednesday, 10/13/04 02:53:52 EDT |
|
Hammer-In Oddness: Just noticed that for some reason the Hammer-In isn't taking my email. That's zinguvok AT hawaii.rr.com , swap the " AT " out for an @ to get my email address. |
| T. Gold - Wednesday, 10/13/04 02:55:13 EDT |
|
Thanks for the help all: Thanks for the help guys. I'm gonna take your advice and go to the local shop. After looking through those kits on ebay I did notice that pretty much ALL of them are only Victor compatible. Thanks for the heads up! |
| Seth - Wednesday, 10/13/04 15:26:29 EDT |
|
Surgery went well. They found a little more damage than expected, nothing major. Feels good right now (waiting for all the drugs to wear off & reality to set in). :) Thanks to all for the kind thoughts. |
| - Brian C. - Wednesday, 10/13/04 16:36:44 EDT |
|
Seth: Good decision; you won't regret it. |
| vicopper - Wednesday, 10/13/04 20:16:01 EDT |
|
Reis,I agree with your post of 10/12/04. I very much like the "As a father and an employer, however, I make and enforce safety rules, trying to always educate why at the same time" As a father, I do the same, all my four kids could read a tape measure, and cut steel to the 1/16" on the cut off saw by 10, and knew that the first thing they did on entering the shop was to pick up their safety glasses. Had a hard time finding safety glasses that fit little guys but did find them. It is human nature, at least here in the states to rebel against rules. Explaining why helps sometimes. At the plant we work with axles from 20# to 454#, and inspct them on tables. lots of materials handling, and have had 4 cases of stuff falling on feet, in the last 2 years. The last was a 454#er, and it hit flange on to the guys foot, right behind the steel toe cap. rolled off a table, and hit on the the tiny bones behind the toes! He had on steel toe/meta-tarsal guarded shoes. He suffe |