Some tools to drool over.  Image (c) 1998 Jock Dempsey.  Click for enlargement. WELCOME to the anvilfire!
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J. Dempsey  <webmaster> Rev. 7/98, 3/99, 5/2k, 6/2k, Friday, 04/06/01 16:43:25 GMT

County Fair Demo: The first and best thing I did was to get a friend to assist me; and a most fortunate choice that was. When Drey isn't crewing the longship or riding his haflingers or making horse tack at Camp Fenby, he's an elementary school teacher. He was really good with the children! (...and adults.)

We had three forges set up with explanatory posters:

Early Medieval Forge
(Portable "dirt" forge used in the field.)

Fuel: Charcoal

Air Supply: Twin bellows

Personnel: Three; one smith, one journeyman to help tend the fire and swing heavier hammers, one apprentice to pump the bellows.

Anvil: Large stone anvil, small metal anvil for fine work.

Other Equipment: Tongs, chisels, punches, files, bow-drill, stakes-

Advantages: Cheap, plentiful fuel combined with cheap plentiful labor.

Disadvantages: Metal is hard won, expensive, and hard to come by. Everything takes a long time (but you've got all the time in the world). No vise or other mechanical helpers.

Twentieth Century Forge
(Portable "farm forge" used for light work.)

Fuel: Bituminous coal

Air Supply: Hand-cranked blower

Personnel: One, sometimes with an assistant

Anvil: 70-pound farrier's anvil

Other Equipment: Blacksmith's "leg" vise, wrenches, mechanical drills-

Advantages: One person can operate, cheap fuel, plentiful tools, good for custom work, restorations, and repairs. Handy for horse-shoeing and farm chores and repairs. Convenient for traveling farriers.

Disadvantages: Smoky, dirty; not for production work (you can't compete with the Industrial Revolution).

Twenty First Century Forge
(Small, portable "art" forge)

Fuel: Propane gas

Air Supply: Aspirated (Venturi effect)

Personnel: One

Other Equipment: Internet access for information and inspiration, good books from library, tools from flea markets, family farm, and some that I make myself.

Advantages: clean, plentiful fuel; cheap to run on small-job basis, no smoke to scare neighbors. You learn to do a lot with a little.

Disadvantages: Expensive to purchase new equipment; much time spent hunting bargains and improvising solutions; limited by size of forge, larger forges use more fuel and cost more to build or purchase. You must learn to be very patient and to know your limitations.


Once again these posters saved a lot of questions, and people could ask us about specifics. We could also concentrate on the projects. I did a camping tripod and endless tent stakes for commissions, and Drey did two medieval knife blades. One of us could chat with the crowd while the other worked, and we were both available when a project needed an extra hand.

What Worked:

Drey; since I had him do the heavy lifting due to my tendonitis.

The combination of the coal forge and the gas forge running simultaneously simplified a number of operations, and were good talking points about technology. Also, the museum folks really liked the coal forge for the ambience of a touch of coal smoke.

The site with a split-rail & post fence between us and the crowd near the entrance to the museum, tobacco sticks and rope between the entrance and the fence, and our screen house tent and such to the back. We were accessible, yet properly segregated from the crowd for safety purposes.

Display table set up along the fence with books, flyers, and samples.

A tent fly for rain and sun and shade; even if we had to stoop a little at times. (The forges were outside the fly.)

Cutting off the forges two hours before end time on Sunday. Not as much fun, but we were able to load the truck without risk. As an extra precaution (based upon horror stories we all have read here) I unloaded the coal forge fuel bare-handed into a bucket to make sure that there were NO lingering embers.

Old wrought iron "planter holders" from Oakley; perfect for tong and hammer racks.

What Didn't Work:

The Viking forge, since there was no one to man it; it was more of a footnote than anything else.

Having only one primary anvil; I would sometimes have to use the Viking stump anvil and we spent a lot of time dancing around each other.

Planning a leisurely day with frequent breaks- Time just flew; people were always interested, and we barely had time to stuff-down lunch or run to buy a funnel cake.


So went my first foray into a "modern" blacksmithing demonstration. I've done a lot of medieval demos, and this was not too different; but I did enjoy the extra efficiencies, and the chance to actually catch-up on some of my commission work while demonstrating.
Bruce Blackistone (Atli) - Thursday, 10/01/09 08:49:38 EDT

ANVILS: well as i am outgrowing my baby anvil i am looking for a bigger one ie about 200+lbs. i have leafsprings (maybe about 200lbs give or take 1 is about 6ft long 3 in wide and maybe 1/2 in thick), knife blanks, hooks, some curly maple and one small burl big enough for a knife handle. i am in Connecticut. i cannot drive far to pick anything up though. thanks for the help and hopefully an anvil. (by the way i know i just made one from a truck axle but that was for jewlery making or knife making, not for big boy stuff :D)
bigfoot - Thursday, 10/01/09 13:25:33 EDT

Anvils are where you find them:
Bigfoot, anvils can be found in many places. The fact that you are in the dense Northeast and close to where there used to be tons of industry means there are anvils hiding everywhere.

One way to find anvils is to ASK for them. Place ads in the local "free trader" or anywhere cheap. Fliers posted in public places may also work.

"Student Blacksmith needs equipment".

"Will accept donations or pay reasonable prices.
Looking for anvils, swages, forges, hammers, tongs." Will trade labor. . .

Offer to buy can sometimes swamp you. Be prepared with a little cash and keep a contact list of those that call you LOOKING for the same thing you are.
- guru - Friday, 10/02/09 23:37:54 EDT

Bigfoot, I think you are being a bit optomistic wanting to swap old leaf springs and wood for an anvil, especially if you cant travel far to collect it. You can get anvils pretty cheap in the UK, but from all my readings your going to be looking at a minimum of a $400 tool in the states, + delivery. Ebay has meant lots of tools that were given away 5 years ago are now sold.

IMHO, your best opinion is to turn some of those springs & wood into knives, sell those and buy the anvil.
- John N - Saturday, 10/03/09 06:16:58 EDT

ANVILS: i completle agree, but in my little area people have snatched all of them up as colectors. also i have already been using craigslist. the wood i have will sell for about $20-$30 for one knife handle blank (curly maple and maple burl) also the burl is pretty expesive but i cannot say an exact price. The spring steel i have is primarily new steel from remaking truck srpings, ie drops. now the knife bit, belive me i am! but i cannot sell a knife without a sheath. the spring steel knives do go over well the older folks as it reminds them of what their dad would have with used, at least from what i have seen.i would love to have the cash to buy a new rat hole forge anvil. i guess i will have to go with john n on this and make the money to buy. i know one place with a mint hay budden of about 300lbs for maybe $1000, so a bit expensive for me. and no im not tellling :D
bigfoot - Saturday, 10/03/09 11:31:31 EDT

AnvilS: by the way 'not very far' is about 100 miles.
bigfoot - Saturday, 10/03/09 11:43:59 EDT

John N: Bigfoot, Kitchen knives sell without sheaths, I find them harder to make as they have to be right!, no dodging the performance issue with fancy handles etc!

The think with kitchen knives is every household is a prospective customer, not the small % of folks that will buy a custom sheath type knife. Might be worth considering ?
- John N - Saturday, 10/03/09 12:48:20 EDT

Finding Anvils: I agree the trade is doubtful. You might get a good anvil for double or triple its weight in new spring steel. .

Some materials are also hard to sell unless you are a dealer.

All of CT, RI and MA is a small area. You are only an hour or so from "the city" and PA, NJ just beyond. There are still tens of thousands of anvils to be ferreted out in that highly concentrated population.

I know it is tough. It is not in my personality. But "finders" ask questions of likely strangers. Then they follow leads and ask more questions (directions AND the money question "Do you know anyone with old blacksmith tools?"). Leads sometime dead end, sometime they create new leads, sometimes the pay off right away. Often the "locals" do not trust strangers to their village and you have to do more than just ask questions. You have to chat, listen to THEIR stories and answer their questions. Give them time to warm up to you and think about who they knew had an anvil. Don't act bored, don't tell them you make knives or swords, agree that you shoe horses the second time they insist you do that.

A good friend of mine is a "finder". I've watched him for years. He has found anvils in Central America where the resident smiths said they could not. He brought anvils home from Germany when the old smith said he would never sell. . His method is as I have described above. He was finding anvils and tools in a foreign language (Spanish) when he could barely speak the basics. . .

Our Thomas Powers is a "finder". Part of it his friends will tell you is his "radar", his sense of where things are found. He will notice a shed a long distance form the highway as he is flying by on the Interstate and say. . "I should check that out, there is probably something interesting there . ." and there will be. But it is the following up on those hunches that is important. It is the art of the finder. .

Finders find. We pay them for their talent.
- guru - Saturday, 10/03/09 13:29:19 EDT

ANVIlS: Guru, that is precisley what i am doing, but i have found maybe 12 or 13 100lb anvils, so small but i am finding some. i have found many things trying to copy Thomas powers, and that is how i found my baby anvil. i spent an hour listening to how nobody my age had any sense any more, and i was promptly given a good condition champion 400 blower and forge and sold an anvil. but big ones are hard to find compared to littler ones, as the big ones have been snatched up by antiques collectors.
Kitchen Knives are mostly what i make and i find them easy, just do a blacksmiths knife and people love them, as the balance and cutting power is great if done right. i ususally sell them for $40 and i use that to buy coal and other things i really need to continue. i do not sell enough for a $400 anvil, unless i spend the money i have saved for a car to get an anvil (i need a car more than an anvil!) thanks for the help and if i find a good one i will certainly follow the advice here.
bigfoot - Saturday, 10/03/09 15:33:27 EDT

Bigfoot, For reference, I have been told that Francis Whiticker, a giant in the blacksmiths trade never owned or used bigger than a 125# in his shop.
I have a 123# Trenton, and while I would of course not turn down a nice 250#er, I have built a junkyard power hammer. I want a bigger anvil rather than NEED a bigger anvil.
My son was strikeing for me with a sledge up to 20# for a while. I have a non-traditional sledging anvil, set in the dirt just outside the shop door. 454# of heavy equipment axle set vertical. A railroad car coupler would also make a great sledging anvil.
When you need a big anvil, to do heavy hammer work, the metal under the hammer is what counts. So, a 6" round, 6' long, set into the earth deep enough to allow use will make a GREAT sledging anvil.
ptree - Saturday, 10/03/09 20:02:12 EDT

i would love to get a big lump of steel, but either will work for me. maybe heavy train axle (i know where i can get one like a truck axle but bigger). a couple would be good too.
bigfoot - Saturday, 10/03/09 20:58:04 EDT

Best mod I ever did - fly press: I know the discussion was about the stop nut which I never use, but it reminded me about this. One thing people hat about using a fly press is that the ram will drift down by gravity if you let go. I see folks with their shoulder against the lever or they put a wedge or a block under the stop nut.

Well, I got to thinking and looking at mine and decided I could counter-weight it. The end of the screw had a nice tapped hole so I put a little eye bolt in and attached a 3/16 aircraft cable. Ran this up to a little pulley directly above and then over to another pulley near the wall. After a little visegrip-CAD I found that it took about 110 to balance the ram. Now I can let go of the handle anywhere and it just stays there, cool.

Of course there is never a free lunch, right? So if it goes up easier then it must be harder to bring down. Well, for the life of me it actually seems easier BOTH ways. I'm starting to think that it is because the counter-weight effectively "unloads" the screw from the nut, reducing friction in both directions. That and the fact that the ram is usually traveling up and down less than an inch anyway. So, maybe I did find a free lunch!
- grant - Saturday, 10/03/09 21:25:10 EDT

Balancing: Grant, I have a big old 5T+ arbor press that is hard to crank back UP due to the small hand wheel. I planned on doing the same thing on its next bench. Probably 75 pounds to counterweight. Make it easier going up, stay in place, and since it is a geared leverage machine the 75 pounds only amounts to a couple pounds lost on the end of the lever. Same on the flypress. Since the force of the flypress is inertia from the wheel the counter balance is a very small percentage of the tonnage.

Big angle grinders have a place for an eye screw to connect to a counter balance. I've seen them setup that way but prefer to let the weight do the work on heavy grinding. I suspect it can be a help for buffing or sanding.

Drill press and mill quills have a counterbalance (weight or spring). Its always a little surprising when you put on an attachment that adds just a LITTLE too much weight and the quill drops on its own. My big drill presses only do it when I put the big ball bearing Jacobs chuck on them. The standard chuck is not heavy enough to be too much.
- guru - Saturday, 10/03/09 22:25:13 EDT

Six pointed star:

Anvils have shown up with that as the only logo. Who made them?

On page 198 of AIA Richard Postman speculated Fisher bought out the American Star Anvil Co. and continued the line for a while. However, one of these anvils showed up with two patent dates on the bottom - both of which match known Fisher patent dates. Mr. Postman also noted he found a Fisher with a six-pointed star stamp on the front foot. Speculation now is they were made by Fisher as a sideline for a 'farmers' anvil - low cost cast iron. They simply didn't want them associated with the Fisher name.

Also to show up at the last Quad-State was an elusive SAMSON. The logo wasn't on the side, but rather on the top of the step. Puzzled Mr. Postman as that seems like the last place one would want to put a logo. Someone playing around again???
Ken Scharabok - Sunday, 10/04/09 14:18:19 EDT

Follow-up Note on County Fair Demonstration: One of my demonstration projects at the County Fair was a chevron pattern rebar "Trivet Snake." These serve as hot-plates for putting hot pots or pans on the table without scorching the table or tablecloth, and consist of a forged snake coiled up into a nice circular disc. After we finished it (it came out pretty well) I displayed it to the crowd and told them that if they liked it, it would be part of the raffle for our church storytelling festival in November. This Saturday morning I went to the forge to do a final clean-up and finish on it so we could display it at our raffle table at the Blessing of the Fleet and -

It appears to have never made it home. Either it slithered off somewhere on its own (I've completely unpacked now) or somebody liked it so much (the display table being along the fence) that they decided not to take a chance on the raffle.

I think I'm flattered; but if somebody nipped it they don't have it with the scale cleaned off and a nice interior finish.

No problem with tools, stirrups, door knockers, and other stuff on display. I guess next time I'll put the pretty stuff further back out of reach.
Bruce Blackistone (Atli) - Monday, 10/05/09 09:57:40 EDT

Yeah Bruce, I think the same thing happend to me at my annuale club show back in August.
I had made a sample display of hand forged flatware from an old barn bord and several peices wired onto it for people to look at.
Throughout the show I had made four other butter knives and a three tine dinner fork to demonstrate and left these loose on the bench for people to pick up and look at.
I remember a teenage girl pick up one of the knives and go to show her mother who was standing in the window around the corner and I nieavly assumed she would put it back. Well I was busy at the anvil and didn't keep her in sight so I guess either she or her mother thaught it would be OK to take that one home as a souvinear...
The club provided the stock that it was made from and they only take about 10-15 minets to make but, the money does go back to the club and nobody else felt the need to steal anything from us so I was a bit miffed they took the knife.
Probably more because it was unfinished and I would not have considerd selling it looking like that (still with the scale on it) after all we are rememberd and juged by looks, not the skill or effort that went in to making the thing...
I think for next year I will hot punch a small hole through the handle and put the loose ones on a teather, that way we can all feel childish and insaulted together.
- merl - Monday, 10/05/09 21:51:47 EDT

Property Protection & Farm Life Festival: Hmmmm; hole in end, monofilament tied to an anvil or stump... This could be amusing! ;-)

Oh; and the FAQ above was partly posted for anybody who wants to lift and modify it for their demonstrations.

Painting the inside of the garage this weekend (keep the wif happy) and plan to visit the last Farm Life Festival here in St. Mary's County; an incredible display and collection at Parlett's farm. Since Mr. Parlett passed away the family has been trying to get the state or county or some other organization to take over this incredible assemblage; but they have decided that the benefit event (all profits to the local "Christmas in April" crew) just can't be sustained anymore.

"Southern Maryland Farm Life Festival"

"Green Manor Farm, Charlotte Hall, corner of Route 5 and Route 6. Sat: 9 AM - 5 PM. Sun: 10 AM - 5 PM. 60,000 Sq. feet of indoor farm life exhibits, demonstrations, antique tractors, engine show, music, crafts, children's activities, food. Admission. HC. 301-290-1621"
Bruce Blackistone (Atli) - Tuesday, 10/06/09 20:23:43 EDT

Security. . . . ..:
A magnetic vise, like off a surface grinder, under a table cloth. Put your iron item on it in plain site. People can look, touch, but cannot pick up.
- guru - Wednesday, 10/07/09 11:17:34 EDT

I know the feeling I was at a civil war event and one the knives I was working on dissappered while I was helping another spectator. But I know the 17 and 18th I will watch closer this time. I can't wait except for it being the last event for my area for the year
- Kevin - Wednesday, 10/07/09 16:50:54 EDT

2009 SOFA: I didn't get to go this year.
How was it?
- Tom H - Thursday, 10/08/09 16:38:43 EDT

2009 SOFA: SOFA weas a god time again this year, some rain, but not as much as a few years ago. The anvil face welding demonstration convinced most of Us to buy anvils with the face plate attached... There are pictures on Farwest Forge & Forgemagic.
- Dave Boyer - Thursday, 10/08/09 19:20:24 EDT

Security...: i'll go you one further Guru.
How about if the item in question completes a circut when picked up and sets off a 120 db DC buzzer...
Then everybody could stop what they're doing and stare at the person at the center of attention.
That would probably go over like a lead ballon but, definatly cut down on theft...
- merl - Thursday, 10/08/09 19:23:30 EDT

At last!: Well the little AnYang arrived this morning. It is in the shop but I have got no further so far. I think job number one is establish exactly where she goes and install a plinth. I will keep you posted.

My shop is starting to look seriously well equipped. We just need a blacksmith in there who knows how to use the stuff!
- philip in china - Friday, 10/09/09 00:50:35 EDT

Philip: Great news on the arrival of the Anyang! Maybe I can manage to get over there sometime in the coming year or so and try it out.

You know, of course, that getting the hammer is only the tip of the iceberg. Next you'll be on the never-ending quest for power hammer tooling, additional dies, a bigger gas forge to feed that hammer, and so on...

If you don't already have one, pick up a copy of J.W> Lillico's book on power hammer forging. It's public domain, I think, and aimed at industrial forging, but it covers just about all you would ever need to know about flat-die power hammer forging techniques. Or you can just send me a plane ticket and I'll come spend a month or so teaching. :-)

You're going to love having a power hammer, believe me.

Rich
vicopper - Friday, 10/09/09 20:52:57 EDT

Meri: I like your idea, but why not use an ignition coil? That'd get their attention!
- grant - Saturday, 10/10/09 14:55:04 EDT

Security: Meri: I like your idea, but why not use an ignition coil? That'd get their attention!
- grant - Saturday, 10/10/09 14:56:01 EDT

Meri: I like your idea, but why not use an ignition coil? That'd get their attention!
- grant - Saturday, 10/10/09 15:32:14 EDT

Strange! First I screwed it up by no putting my name in. Then I refreshed, Went away, came back and still couldn't see a post. Very strange. Tried browser refresh and your refresh. Oh well.
- grant - Saturday, 10/10/09 19:38:48 EDT

Come on, tell the truth. You were playing with your ignition coil while trying to type!
- guru - Saturday, 10/10/09 20:25:39 EDT

Guru,

You could be right. I seem to remember a story about Grant and a taser. . .

To get back to Merl's idea, you could increase the amps instead of the volts. Depending on the piece, 40 or 50 might be enought to get a high black heat (grin).
Mike BR - Saturday, 10/10/09 20:29:28 EDT

Ignition coil security: Lets go with a two prong approach.
For the "casuale observer" we have the item teatherd to the afor mentioned audio signaling device.
For the more determined "grab and run" type we actualy incorperate a two stage teather. The first stage activates the singnal and, as the secured item continues its flight, the teather is broken and the more sinister ignition coil "deterant/punishment device" is activated knocking the would be perpetrator on their A#$!!

Grant I must admit you have a certain meanness I"m beginning to admire...

As for Mike BR, I'll only get on board with that if you can somehow manage to brand them with a large "T" (theif) befor they can drop the item...
- merl - Saturday, 10/10/09 21:01:29 EDT

Ignition coil security/pranks: For this sort of thing I prefer the Model "T" buzz coil powered by a Lionel train transformer. This operates the coil primary at about 21 VAC, the same as from the dynamo on the actual car.
- Dave Boyer - Saturday, 10/10/09 21:17:26 EDT

RENZETTI: Can anyone direct me to a picture of Pete Renzetti's little power hammer that he used to make little cups out of pennies?
Looking for photo or video online.
Thanks
- Tom H - Sunday, 10/11/09 16:55:35 EDT

If you look in the Gallery on ForgeMagic in Tom C.'s Pictures, you will find a picture of Pete Renzetti's little power hammer.
- Dave Hammer - Sunday, 10/11/09 20:59:13 EDT

RENZETTI: Thanks Dave. That's it.
- Tom H - Sunday, 10/11/09 21:17:27 EDT

WHY THIS BLACKSMITH SCHOOL: I am a beginner to blacksmithing.  Previously, I had taken a five day beginner course from a well known instructor and wanted to continue learning and developing my skills in blacksmithing.  I continued to work on my blacksmith projects but needed to increase my skills and wanted to work with someone.  I realized I could progress faster with  the help of another teacher.

I looked around at the many schools throughout the U.S.A.  I talked to many people and finally decided on the Turley Forge  Blacksmithing School in Santa Fe, NM.  I am so pleased with my choice of this school.

I signed up for the 6 day course.  First, the school looks like a old style blacksmith shop.  I have taken many classes from many teachers and know what it takes to excite and interest me and others.  Frank is one of the best teachers I have ever met.

I told Frank I didn't want to repeat the lessons of my first class. The first day, I was forge welding and learning how to work with a coal forge.  His talks are part demonstration, history lesson, and education into the many different aspects of the blacksmith world.  He has such great recall of information, details, history, and stories from his 45+ plus years in blacksmithing.  I practiced many different skills each day.  One afternoon, I made 5 or 6 different types of scrolls and finials.  For me, the highlight was when I made a pair of tongs and successfully forge welded on the reins.

We sat around his anvil as he lectured and demonstrated so many different skills.  We had ample time to practice and ask questions. When one of the students would ask how to do something, Frank would take the time to show us.  His treasure chest of collected items from over his many years was a fascinating trip into history, techniques, and incredible blacksmithing examples.  I had never used a trip hammer and was able to use his very old trip hammer on one of the projects. I also was able to practice striking quite a few times on our projects and with Frank.

I now have about a three page list of blacksmithing books I want to get, and about 3 pages of websites for tools, equipments, and information.

If you're looking for a blacksmith school that is more than just a few projects that incorporate some different skills, then Frank Turley's Blacksmithing School is the place for you. He is truly a master teacher and the classes are well worth the money.


David Pisarev
Simi Valley, Ca.
David - Monday, 10/12/09 11:44:49 EDT

Renzettie's little hammer: I saw a less fancy copy of it at a hammer in. An ecentric causes the motion, there is a compression spring on each side of the pivoting arm holding the hammer to simulate the action given by a DuPont linkage. Compression springs increase load linearly, however, so it isn't really as effective as a DuPont linkage. There were rubber cushions where it gripped the hammer handle. This little machine does what it was intended for, and was just plain cute.
- Dave Boyer - Tuesday, 10/13/09 23:40:19 EDT

David's free school plug.: I want to thank Dave for the plug. Dave was a soon-to-retire guy who had done a little forging before coming to me. He warned me that he was going to be a "pest" with boo coo questions. He did have many questions, but all were pertinent. We had a good time dealing with it all, and the entire class got fuller notes because of the answered questions.
Frank Turley - Wednesday, 10/14/09 09:34:09 EDT

Hammer Info: I find folks are very free with their infomation, I get asked lots of questions about hammers that I answer most of, in my spare time, and for absolutly no gain to myself. I do not think people have a right to get pissy if questions go unanswered (unless they are paying for that persons time).
- John N - Thursday, 10/15/09 04:20:42 EDT

A big thank you: John, let me publicly thank you for the answers you have given me about my hammer. Guru you have as well. They have been tremendously useful and I have learnt a lot from them.
- philip in china - Thursday, 10/15/09 06:01:40 EDT

Putting On Pants: I just sit on the bed and pull my pants on both legs at once. My volunteer fireman neighbor had his set up in his boots so that he could jump in and pull them up when the radio alarm sounded. This worked fine until his young daughter turned his boots around toe-for-heel.

People here do the best they can. I'm always grateful for any relevant information I receive. I hope people can profit from any good advice that I can lend, when and if I have the time and knowledge.

Different ships, different long splices.
Bruce Blackistone (Atli) - Thursday, 10/15/09 20:43:00 EDT

Posts Removed HERE:
Children!

Take your petty bickering and arguments elsewhere. This is a free and open discussion forum that I should not have to referee.

Making personal comments about people in forums such as this is bad manners. Posting apposing comments adds to the work of cleaning up the mess. I have way more work to do than time to do it and having to edit out your messes takes away from productive work.

The world is FULL of places where you can setup a public platform for free and say anything you want. Take it there.
- guru - Friday, 10/16/09 13:40:20 EDT

Adios, Jock.: It's like déjà vu all over again, to paraphrase Yogi. It's been a good ride, in general, but it seems to be time to change buses.

Best wishes to all!

Rich
vicopper - Friday, 10/16/09 18:31:07 EDT

Frank Turley , Vicopper: I first met Frank Turley more than 30 years ago (!) soon after I moved to New Mexico and was looking for magazine stories to do, saw a blurb re: his school in the Whole Earth Catalog, and the lightbulb flashed. The coal smoke made me homesick, reminded me of Johnstown, and Dundalk, where I grew up in the shadow of Bethlehem Steel. Sat through the entire class for that piece with pictures by my wife Joan for Americana Magazine, came back later for another story, sat through the class again. Then took a weekend workshop in 1986, took the class as a student in '91. Have never regretted it. Frank is a national treasure, a teacher, historian, keeper of the flame. Rich, we're gonna miss you!
Miles Undercut - Friday, 10/16/09 21:55:01 EDT

Frank, Miles, & Rich: It may be unclear why Miles talked about Frank T, when the message is directed to Rich. It is because I sent an email to Miles remarking about the word tussle, and the fact that Rich said, "Adios."
- Frank Turley - Saturday, 10/17/09 11:08:09 EDT

My hammer: Well over a week after it arrived I finally got it connected to the power. It is a truly wonderful machine! I need to complete the base and get her anchored down before I can do any real work with her but she is wonderful.
- philip in china - Tuesday, 10/20/09 06:12:51 EDT

A new machine in the shop is always excitement tempered by frustration at not being able to immediately USE the machine. But it is always worth while to get it setup right.

Quite a few machines of various types have been wrecked by operating them without proper setup. One outfit just HAD to test their like-new Nazel before setting it up and putting the anvil under it. It only took seconds to rip out the lower flange bolts and wreck tens of thousands of dollars worth of parts.
- guru - Tuesday, 10/20/09 07:23:49 EDT

And it probably would never have happened had I not seen the advert for Anyang here on Anvilfire.
philip in china - Tuesday, 10/20/09 09:48:20 EDT

What I'm Up-To This Weekend: For anybody who likes arms, armor and anchors...

Hastings XXXXI
Our 41st reenactment of the Battle of Hastings (14 October, 1066 A.D.)

Saturday and Sunday, October 24 & 25 (10:00 a.m. to 4:00 p.m.) Public Admission is FREE!

Kings Landing Park, Huntingtown Road, Calvert County, MD

Normans, Anglo-Saxons, and Vikings will be displaying cavalry, camps, Viking longships, arms and armor of the period as well as battle reenactments and demonstrations for an educational and entertaining look at the 11th century! See our commemoration of one of the turning points of history; the invasion and conquest of England by William the Conqueror

Brought to you by The Longship Company: www.longshipco.org

and the Markland Confederation: www.markland.org

Kings's Landing Park (w/ directions)
Bruce Blackistone - Tuesday, 10/20/09 13:38:15 EDT

I this working?
- HMMM - Monday, 10/26/09 03:18:22 EST

Internal Combustion Engines, and Bruce: I regret to report that the Sae Hrafn, our Viking longship, did not make it to King's Landing this past weekend, as we had planned.

After spending all day rigging her out for the voyage, launching the push boat, trying to start the outboard, hauling the outboard back to St. Mary's County for repairs, and then taking her on a shakedown voyage-

Well, as we were making a final swing past the visiting Sultana, the outboard motor twisted on her mounts (which I had personally tightened) and flipped off the stern, running, in two fathoms of water.

Now, water, being an incompressible fluid when sucked into the intake and cylinder, does awful things to the crank shaft, pistons, and other mechanical goodies; so the motor is pretty much trashed, even if we could find and salvage her. Also, I could narrow the area down to maybe a half-acre of waterway. Grappling would be iffy, and not enough steel in these engines to really attract a magnet.

I spoke with Andrew, one of our Camp Fenby crew, who's family donated both the boat and the engine, and it turns out that his family had lost a motor off the same boat under similar circumstances, so we may need to plan a fail-safe system for the transom in the future.

Two further observations- The transom is very solid and virtual incompressible. Also, it's one thing when an outboard is just shoving around a 14' dory boat, and quite another when it's trying to shove a small boat strapped to the port quarter of a 40' vessel.

As our Treasurer, Alix observed, the LSCo does not enjoy good luck with outboards; sunk, stolen, drowned by passing speedboats... We'll just try harder next time to get things right; but I have a growing appreciation over the last 37 years for oars, sail, and a large hearty crew.

Meanwhile, my wif and I did have time to fight it out with the tiller the previous weekend. We switched out the gasoline, cleaned the plug (which looked pretty good); tried various priming strategies, and failed to keep it running. Actually, the problem with the outboard (well, the earlier problem) was that the ethanol in the fuel had dissolved part of the fuel hose, plugging part of the carburetor. Christi had bought some STP gas treatment, but I suspect it contains ethanol, and I didn't want to make a bad situation worse. The tiller is still under warranty, but I didn't want to haul it in if it was something minor.

At least the cars and truck are all running fine! ;-)

As for blacksmithing, we're doing preliminary planning for a Camp Fenby session around November 14th, and I'm really looking forward to getting my Christmas, Hanukkah, and Solstice gifts ready for my family and friends and some artwork going for MarsCon!
Bruce Blackistone (Atli) - Monday, 10/26/09 07:30:13 EST

Boats and water. . . :
The things that go overboard. . . The bilge plugs that get left out. . . The bilge pumps that quit. . . The brakes that fail on the boat ramp. . . The slipper mud on the boat ramp. . The drowned batteries. . .

One thing I do not miss about Dad is all the mis-adventures with boats. I've unexpectedly ended up swimming in freezing water more than once when it was time to get a half sinking boat onto the trailer. I've seen Dad under the water working on the prop like Bogey in The African Queen.

I've also expected him to go out and never come back. . . boating alone is dangerous but Dad did it all the time. Twice we have had friends fall out of their own boats while alone. One was run over and killed by the circling boat. The other was lucky that Dad noted something amiss at long distance and went to investigate. The fellow had been in the water several hours and almost drowned because he could not climb back into the high sided boat.

Twice during WWII Dad escaped from sinking ships. In both cases he was one of few survivors.

The one thing I do not remember in the 40 some years of boating was losing a motor off the transom. We used everything from little electric trolling motors to big multi-cylinder Mercury outboards. Some have gotten loose but none fallen off. . . OR maybe I just wasn't there.

I do not dislike boats but I learned to hate working on them. . .
- guru - Monday, 10/26/09 15:28:21 EST

I've twice tended to an outboard that had gone under while running and seemed to be locked up tight. Both time, I pulled the spark plug and turned the motor over a couple times to get the water out of they cylinder. Both times it fired right up when I put the spark plug back in.

Of course, that doesn't help much if the motor's still on the bottom. . . .
Mike BR - Monday, 10/26/09 16:38:06 EST

Boat motors: My one great mis-adventure with a boat. On lake Cumberland in central KY, on our honeymoon. May 1981. Rented a 16' Jon boat with a 25Hp outboard. We were many miles from the dock when a May thunderstorm came up. I turned for the dock and had that little jon up like a hydroplane, mostly on the prop. The Rock, My bride of a few days was in the front, hanging on for dear life. The next thing I know I have a running baot motor, sans hood, on my lap, My right arm and shoulder are numb and I see the Rock doing a hand stand on the gunwale. My first instinct was to throw the motor overboard out of my lap. I thought better, and somehow got it back on the transom, and eased into gear on we moved back to the dock at half power as it kept jumping out of gear. As I was putting the motor back on the transome one armed, I did notice a huge complete tree, floating just submerged, that I had hit. About 5' diameter trunk. The Rock fell back in the boat after her handstand. Never did see the motor hood. I had a handsome bruise from the motor hitting me in the shoulder.
And we got soaked from the thunderstorm, about 100' from the dock:)
ptree - Monday, 10/26/09 17:47:25 EST

Bruce- You poor, poor man. Never, EVER say something like "the truck is running well" in public. You never know when Loki is listening ;).
- Judson Yaggy - Monday, 10/26/09 18:06:23 EST

Adventures in Outboarding: Gosh, P'Tree; and I thought I had all the fun!


"Adventure: A disaster that you survive and therefore get to brag about." (Longship Company Manual Glossary and UAVTBoW)
Bruce Blackistone (Atli) - Monday, 10/26/09 18:18:56 EST

At least you didn't have to paddle back into a head wind. . .
- guru - Monday, 10/26/09 18:42:07 EST

Boating Bug-a-Boo's: Farley Mowatt has little on You guys.
- Dave Boyer - Monday, 10/26/09 20:21:52 EST

Forgoten Bilge Plugs...: Having done alot of sailing I am proud to say that I have never forgoten to put a bilge plug in, HOWEVER...
When I was in the Army I was asigned to a heavy mechinized Infantry line company, lots of tanks and armored personel carriers.
The old M113 APC family of vehicals all had the same interesting querks. One of these was the horrendous vaccume created in the engine compartment from the cooling tower fan. there are also two 1.5" npt drain plugs at the bottom of the finale drive houseings wich are open to the engine compartment. The amount of dirt and trash that would come in through these holes if the plugs were left out was unbeleavable.
Now the M113 was designed to float and swim free of the bottom of a body of water and our company made sure that ours were kept in "swiming condition" just in case the oppertunity arose while out on the tank trails at Ft. Macoy.
The M113 also has bilge pumps that would keep up with quite alot of water too if the need arose...
So this one time my T.C. and I are jammin' on down the trail way off the beaten track when a swiming oppertunity presents its self in the form of a long road that flanked a flooded marsh pond.
The water over the road appeard to get gradualy deeper until it was probably 4' deep, not enogh to fully swim but, it would leave an impressive high water mark.
So we stop and put the tail gate down to make sure the seal is clean and greased, fire up the bilge pumps and deploy the trim vain, just in case we lose the bottom after all.
The water got halfway up the road wheels pretty fast and so far so good. Soon after the water was up to the bottom of the upper front slope and no leaks at the tail gate yet, so we go on.
Now the water is about a foot and a half from the top of the APC and I hear us break traction a little bit on the loose underwater road gravel so we slow down.
My T.C. hollers on the head set "Hey, I think it's raining!" ( it was a little cloudy and we had all the hatches open per standard procedures)
I call back that maybe we should get out of the water in case it turns into an electrical storm. "Good idea" he says.
I turn to the left and right to see if I have enough room to do a 180 pivot steer and I see water spitting up through the cooling tower fan on my right!!
"SH#T!!! WE GOT WATER INSIDE!!!" I holler on the com.
I quick look down at the floor and see water welling up through the deck plates so we already have 5" of water inside the hull!
Full reverse, we are leaving now! A bit too much on the throttle and the wave of water from the floor gave me a good splash in the drivers compartment.
Meanwhile my T.C. is hollering "Drain plugs! didn't you put the drain plugs in!?!" "Of corse I did!"
I know I did too, you only forget to do that once in an APC.
We were able to get back out of the water with out too much more excitment and found only one drain plug missing (stolen or fell out) but, it was the one on the engine side and when the the vaccume drew the water in it must have made quite a nice gyser and got into the fan tower to come out as rain on the two of us.
The bilge pumps were running full blast but you can't tell unless you're out side and see the water coming out.
The first thing our lieutenant wanted to know when we got back to the company area was how the APC got so clean but, I think he knew...
- merl - Monday, 10/26/09 22:42:01 EST

M-113 bilge pumps: Merl, the old M-113's we had in the KYARNG were plain M-113's. Had the 327 Chevy gas engines, and the bilge pumps had an On and Auto position. We had a obnoxious 2nd LT that liked to tailgate on the road, and write up guys for speeding etc.
He did not know M-113's well. Now in the auto position, if the M-113 was sitting at a stop, and accelerated smartly away, the bilge sludge water etc would slosh back, the pump would sense it and cycle on. The bilge pump exited thru an ell at the right rear of the vehicle. Now if say an annoyed SGT, acting as TC noticed a jeep tailgating, and had the driver to switch the pump onto auto, and then had the driver accelerate smartly away from a stop at Ft Knox, after a couple of hours of tank trailing, the mud, oil and grease ported out that right rear top corner of a M-113 would exit just in line to douse said 2nd LT perfectly. Now I have only heard that this works of course:)
ptree - Tuesday, 10/27/09 04:46:48 EST

Under Handed Bilge Pumping : Now ptree, I can't beleave that someone of your fine and upstanding character would be a party to the indiscriminate bilge pumping as you describe although, I'm sure you knew of those that did...(incert appropriate smarta$$ imodicon here)
Yes, it is just as you say on the A2s that we ran, with the addition of a second outlet on the left front corner right by the driver.
Still can't hear them pumping when you have the engine running and the crew helmet on with the mic off.
We would always leave the spare helmet hanging from the ceiling with the mic on and a small portable radio in it for a little trail music. I suppose that didn't help...
- merl - Tuesday, 10/27/09 08:33:38 EST

Merl, we were in th KYARNG. We only had non-working intercoms! But boy did those 327's sound good.
That LT was a stickler about driving around tatical in a jeep. Right rear, say about 30 gallons of sludgey muddy water straight out:)
ptree - Tuesday, 10/27/09 12:21:25 EST

Dave Boyer: When you've had a lifetime of practice on the water, you can make any disaster look easy. ;-)

The family motto is: Even when you're unlucky, it can be a good thing. The motor might have departed well up the river and in a bad place and time. At least now we are forewarned with this boat, transom, and configuration.

I read Farley Mowatt's The Boat that Wouldn't Float; and when I read about him scraping the fish guts out, I thought: "Uh-oh; this can't be good." My attitude towards submerged seams is minimally interventionist. I do as little as possible and work around anything that looks sound; and then I'm prepared to redo the whole thing when the first method doesn't work anymore.
Bruce Blackistone (Atli) - Tuesday, 10/27/09 13:34:06 EST

Engine preference: The M113A2 has a 6V53 Detroit Diesel in it.
Thet engine would throw that little 13 ton APC around like it was made of Balsa wood.
Then came the M113A3 with a Silver 60 series Detroit and a true piviot steer trans axil.
OMG! now guys were gettin hurt but, enjoying every minet of the new found power.
I never ran a staight 113 but, I knew guys that had run them in Veitnam. No complaints from them for sure.
About the time the brigade got all of thier A3s was about the time I finely got out (just after our first invitation to the big sand box)and I didn't keep up with the latest developments in chariots after that...
- merl - Tuesday, 10/27/09 14:36:19 EST

Merl, My 113 was so old that it did not have the low speed steer brakes. Ours were a pure Chevy 327, running thru a big old low restriction muffler that exhausted left front corner. We had plywood bow trim vanes. Heck the 5 ton ammo carrier I drive to Camp Shelby from KY was delivered to the US 4 months prior to my birth(1956) and was also a gas engine. 2.5 MPG empty. WE also had the open mount 8" howitzers, on the tracked carriage.
All like me now old and mostly forgotten:)
ptree - Tuesday, 10/27/09 17:13:41 EST

I remember, ptree...
We may have only been stirrin' up the mud in the back 40 of some CONUS Army post but, we had our missions too.
- merl - Tuesday, 10/27/09 20:08:57 EST

Merl, yes we did. I also spent 28 months in USAEUR.
ptree - Wednesday, 10/28/09 12:22:10 EST

Well ptree, all I can say is "You have my pitty"
You may or may not have had a good time but, my time spent over seas and in Panama while interesting and character building, were not pleasent and, not something I would care to repeat.
- merl - Wednesday, 10/28/09 13:28:34 EST

Hey ptree, what did you think about the M561 "Gamma Goat"?
Those were supposed to be able to swim too but, we could never get one to do it reliably....
- merl - Wednesday, 10/28/09 13:32:21 EST

The Gamma's were very plentiful in Germany. Strange beastie. None in my unit. You would hear that high speed deisel miles away and think the stupid things were doing 200 mph, and when you finally see them they were creeping along at 30 mph. I heard lots bad, hard to stear with cable controls to front and rear wheels and the aluminum tailgates were very fragil and if bent any the Gamma would sink like a rock upon entering the water.

I worked on Sheridans, M551 a1 e1s and they too were strange and somewhat rare.
I loved Germany.
ptree - Wednesday, 10/28/09 13:38:55 EST

My hammer: As some of you know I had delays in getting the 25Kg Anyang delivered. It was certainly worth the waith though! It is on an Anyang made base and that gets it to just 37" from the floor. It would be 1/4" higher but I cracked out the tiles where it has gone so it is in a very shallow depression- but enough to prevent it from walking I hope. The control is very precise and there is more power than I shall ever need. Now I just have to learn how to use it!
- philip in china - Thursday, 10/29/09 05:20:02 EST

Power Hammer Instruction: I'm not sure how international orders are handled, but I am sure there are multiple UMBA videos that would be very helpful for you to learn how to use your hammer. Check out their website and look at the list of available DVDs with "powerhammer" in the content information.
- Dave Hammer - Thursday, 10/29/09 06:10:42 EST

Power Hammer Use, Practice paractice: This is one of those areas where practice and familiarization with your particular machine makes a difference. Taking a few days and a stack of steel to use up is what makes going to the Power Hammer School a good idea. But you can also do this on your own. Saw up 100 pounds or more of square, round and flat stock then use it up. . . Pieces a foot long are handy in large stock and shorter in small stock. Be sure to have tongs that fit each size well.

The videos sold by BigBLU go through the basics of pointing and drawing, then isolating stock. Making short points without creating a cold shut (fish mouth) is first. Medium long tapers are easy but extra long tapers are made a lot like doing so by hand, forging a taper leaving a lump on the end which retains heat then forging it last.

Using special dies for freehand forging moves very fast and is the most efficient way to produce decorative work. Using hand held tooling opens up more possibilities but requires better control of the hammer and slows the work down as well. Using hand held tools and flat dies gives the most precise control but is very slow compared to free hand forging on the right dies.

The important thing about a power hammer is that you have gone from a primitive hand craft to a high production forging operation. It is not just the size of the work but the total quantity. You need to be able to heat more steel faster and finish more parts efficiently. Gas forges and vibratory finishers become as important as having the hammer. Even stock cutting becomes a significant factor.

If you look at any significant architectural or railing job you will see a lot of repetitive parts. The same parts are made in the hundreds or thousands. And even though the pickets may each be entirely different works of art they will be similar in length and style and there will be many of them. The power hammer gives you the ability to forge all these parts efficiently but the forging is only a small part of the total job.

So, don't just play with the machine. Cut up that stack of stock (its an educational expense) and start forging. Make points, isolate cylinders, make balls, leaves, flames. Practice making long tapers and short. Make them smooth and make them rough. Practice controlled texturing. Practice using single and double tongs (one at a right angle to give more control).

Avoid hand held tooling until you are very comfortable with the machine and it no longer gets away from you. Then start simple using a cutoff tool and a triangular snap to isolate masses. Then practice punching holes over a loose bolster. . .

Every process you do at the anvil can be done on the machine. The trick is the tooling is a little different and you must learn to control all that power. Any process you have trouble with the machine will do worse and faster. If you have trouble mushrooming punches by hand the machine will make an internal blind rivet out of your punch. . . If you have trouble hanging on to work the power hammer will throw it across the shop at high velocity.

The machine making problems worse is why the practice is important. So put yourself through school. Many people do not. They wait for a job then learn on the job. It is far better to chew up a bunch of material that you planed on wasting rather than material needed for a job.
- guru - Thursday, 10/29/09 10:24:36 EST

p. hammer tooling: What's a triangular snap? My hacks are triangular or knife blade shapes, snappers square or rectangular. Is this a nomenclature thing or a different tool shape than I'm used to?
- Judson Yaggy - Thursday, 10/29/09 17:56:33 EST

PH Training: I have got the Big Blu video and must say it has been very useful. (Main problem is that my female students particularly like to watch it but I don't think they are watching the hammer). I have got a virtually unlimited supply of rebar here and intend to see what I can do with all of that. When I have finished it can still go into concrete of course!

She is over oiling at present but I have backed off on the oilers a little bit. I would prefer over oiling to under oiling of course!

So far just using the flat dies. Once I have used those a bit I will go on to the combi dies and a very crowned one which I also got.

I am itching to make something but will mash away until I know what I am doing first.
philip in china - Thursday, 10/29/09 18:49:11 EST

Flat dies: Those square cornered flat dies are going to be tough to do good work with. They come from the factory with a near sharp corner with a slight chamfer. Like anvils the manufacturer expects the buyer to dress the edges. Properly dressed the outer edges should drop off for some distance and then become a nice soft radius. Ideally it is a quarter oval cross section but some describe it as a taper ending in a radius.

Somewhere I had a reference that had a chart showing the dimensions of this oval section for different size hammers. The larger the die the less the edge dressing uses proportionately. On small dies the dressing leaves about 1/2 the middle flat and on large dies 3/4 or more.

The theory of the die edges is that when drawing tapers some point on those curved edges will match the taper and the areas around it be close to the taper so a fairly smooth surface can be created.

The rounded edges also prevent marking the work and creating cold shuts. When doing heavy forging the smooth rounded edges help the metal flow outward.

If flat dies are used only for die top tooling then the corners can be left relatively sharp. But at a minimum they should have a radius instead of the factory chamfer on the corner.

- guru - Thursday, 10/29/09 23:34:50 EST

Sets and Cutters: Sorry, My primary reference on power hammer tooling (Lillico) calls everything a "set" or a "cutter". There are sharp and radiused triangular side sets, radius and straight cutters. . . but most are "sets".

Old references did the same with anvil tooling. The ONLY thing called a hardie was a hardie. Most bottom tools that fit the hardy hole were "sets" and there were bottom fullers. But no "hardie tools". Just sets with qualifying descriptions. . .

For me the two handiest tools for power hammer work are a piece of round bar and a piece of flat bar. They are whatever happens to be convenient. But I guess I should make a set of power hammer tools. . .
Side sets from Lillico
- guru - Friday, 10/30/09 00:23:50 EST

side sets: I think one of my British books talks about the hand held set hammer being used to "set down shoulders." The hand held side set dressed at maybe 75º, and for making tenons, is also used for "setting down shoulders." Therefore, I tend to think of any tool termed a "set" as a shoulder* making tool. Is true?

*sometimes called a step
Frank Turley - Saturday, 10/31/09 07:46:51 EST

fun story: I just wanted to share a good story form a recent demo. I was working at the CT renn faire , the weather (cold and rainy) this year was not the best and I was somewhat out of sorts, I had just finished a makeing a leaf key chain and turned to the croud and asked if any one whaned to buy it, no takers .... then this little boy tells me when he was at the anouther blacksmiths shop the blacksmith, had given his item away to the kid who could draw the best hershys kiss. this kind of sounded fun so I tell the kids I will give the leaf to the kid who tells me the best joke. All these hands shoot up and I hear a few realy bad jokes, then this little girl gets my attenion and her family try's to quite her telling me her jokes are allways so bad. so I crouch down to her level and tell her I whant to hear her joke. With a little encorgement she tells me this joke, "what is the butchers favorit dinosor, the steak-o-soris" I thought is was kind of funny and I felt a bit bad for the little girl so I gave her the leaf. Well I must have made that little girls day, for the rest of the day other vendors and workers at the faire keep stoping by and telling me about this little girl that had corned then to tell them all about the " cool blacksmith that was so nice to her, and thought her joke was the best"
Hearing that really made my day and to be honest I needed that. All of the realy dumb statments and questions you allways get when demoing were starting to get to me and I was starting to wonder why the heck I keep doing demos, now I have a good story to remind my self why.
MP
- MPMetal - Saturday, 10/31/09 10:00:00 EST

MP, Great story.

There is always the desire to give something to the kids but the knowledge that if you start it can be never ending. This is a great way to reduce the problem. . .

I almost always end up giving something away to some kid that really takes interest in what I am doing. I've had kids that were too young to leave their parents and kept dragging one or both back to see the blacksmith. I usually find a way to make something for them (free) but it is always a risk. Does the kid have 8 brothers and sisters? Is there another kid hiding where I can't see that it going to spread the word about free stuff? Crowd conditions change rapidly.

- guru - Saturday, 10/31/09 11:02:41 EST

it is certinly a trick I will use again. kids love free stuff, if ou make them work for it a bit it really thins the load...
- MPMetal - Saturday, 10/31/09 13:54:27 EST

The only thing I miss about not doing demos is the kids that are really hooked.

The best teaching experiences have been 8 year olds. Kids old enough to use a hammer but too young to have taken seriously the admonitions of adults that they are not old enough or big enough to do something. Both were tough little boys that by shear will were going to make that iron into what they wanted, skills or no. Of course, this is the same thing that makes an adult a good smith.
- guru - Saturday, 10/31/09 17:17:51 EST

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