WELCOME to the anvilfire!Virtual Hammer-In! This page is open to ALL for the purpose of advancing blacksmithing. November 2003 Archive |
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Brazing alloy: DB, I always had pretty good luck with bare silver brazing alloy and its recommended flux. If you're nervous about cadmium (and probably should be), ask for the food grade cad-free variety. That's what the tin knockers use in commercial kitchens. |
| 3dogs - Saturday, 11/01/03 03:43:26 EST |
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Braze Welding with MAPP: DB, There was no answer because I do not know. AND you did not say what kind of torch you are using. The quality of an air-gas torch makes a huge difference. You cannot just screw a bottle of MAPP onto a cheap Chinese no-name propane torch and go to it. I have an air-acetylene torch that I inherited. It was designed for soldering plumbing. Radiator repair guys often use the same style torch. It does not get hot enough in a concentrated spot to braze with it. It WILL melt brass but you have no control over a bead. It is a soldering torch. The problem with what you want do do is that it takes a very small intense flame so that you can control the heat. Due to the high conductivity in brass and bronze the entire piece rapidly becomes nearly the same temperature. Unless you have a very concentrated heat the entire piece will melt at the same time. You cannot create a welding puddle. Bernzomatic makes some very nice air-fuel torches that are infinitely different than the common propane torch. One of those MIGHT work. Read the instructions. IF it says you can braze it might work (within some specific range). But a common torch WILL NOT. I'm not even sure an oxy-propane torch will do the job. I've made dozens of brass basket twists and built up sculptures. It was all done with common 1/4" brazing rod and 3/32" coated brazing rod and a small oxy-acetylene torch. The welded assemblies can be forged if the weld penetrates deep enough. Afterward the parts can be braze-welded or riveted. I have also built up pieces such as ram's heads on steel shanks for fire place tools. I know it cannot be done with a propane torch. |
| - guru - Saturday, 11/01/03 12:42:30 EST |
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ANTI-SPAM: David, We use a proprietary encryption system on anvilfire that I wrote. It allows mail to work but prevents harvestors from gleaning the addresses. HOWEVER, they can be gotten by clicking on each one and manualy cutting and pasting into a list. This is just as labor intensive as typing the addresses from a graphical list. Some spammers do both and eventuly your name can end up on a distributed list. I am working on a phase-two system that only allows contact via an online form from the encrypted addresses. . . a high tech approach that absolutely protects the addresses unless someone wants to go to the trouble of decrypting them. The problem with type system is that server formmail programs send the bounce mail to the server. . SO. . we need a completely custom formmail system. . . Also note that MANY free mail and free hosting systems are in the spam harvesting business. YES, their TOS says they protect YOUR name. But is does not cover people you send mail to or clients using your system. Some of the biggest corps in the free hosting business are in the SPAM business. . . Then there are the viruses. . . If you use your mail at all eventualy someone you wrote to will get a virus that uses YOUR return address on the mail. Many low lifes add ANY address that comes to their system to their mailing lists. This includes the porn sites and any spammer the person with the virus has written to. The only thing that will end spam is to make it illegal or to put a cost on e-mail. . . |
| - guru - Saturday, 11/01/03 13:23:02 EST |
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So?: Are you saying not to use your e-mail at all?? We have not decided on how to do it but will implant the best way to protect them. |
| David Kurin - Saturday, 11/01/03 17:17:59 EST |
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SPAM. . .: To NEVER be spammed at all you just about have to just not use e-mail. Many folks avoid it by changing email addresses every year or so. However, when you OWN your URL and therefore your e-mail address it is a different matter. I get so much SPAM that I am about to be forced to abandon what is MY property. . . As soon as I get server side system going I will change my e-mail. . . but it will probably be some goofy numbered account name that I can change regularly and if people want to get to me they will just have to use an online form. . . The only 100% safe system on a web site is through a contact form. This requires a CGI and access to the sever's sendmail routine. It is easy to do for dedicated use but for public addresses it requires either a protected database or an encryption system as well as the software. Some software systems come with a protected e-mail system however most are custom solutions. There are two ways to build web-sites. One is with other peoples software and one is with your own. At the beginning I decided that we would use our own any time we could. Over the long haul it has been best. The software that we have had the most trouble with has been other peoples. . . Our cart program is buggy as hell and hard to maintain. Our auction program started as user supported but then went commercial and became very expensive. . . Our chat was abandoned by its creator about the time we started using it. At least it was distributed as source code and we have been able to keep it going and make changes as we needed. But it is a difficult way to go. |
| - guru - Sunday, 11/02/03 15:12:58 EST |
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g'day all. I am Scott My Son Ian is particularly interested in blacksmithing and in fact has fashioned a peacod breastplate. He is interested in forgeing mor items but I am at a loss for materials. such as wrought iron coal or other material for forging greaves bracers plates helms ETC. WE live in Connecticut in New London County and wouls appreciate ANY and ALL advise for his new endevour. He says better to burn metal then burn drugs. Thanks for your time. |
| - Scott Donohue - Monday, 11/03/03 08:24:48 EST |
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Scott Donohue: Scott; Take a look at the top right hand corner of your screen, where it says "NAVIGATE anvilfire". Scroll down until you see "Coal Scuttle". Two Connecticut coal sources are given. Scroll back up 5 spots and you'll see "Armoury". Lotsa stuff there to get him started. Go to your search engine. I rather like Google. com, myself. Type in what you're looking for, hit "search", and odds are you'll get something. There's enough smithing info on the web to get him into his old age. Do what you just did; ask questions. There are about a bazillion people on this website alone who will be happy to answer. Based upon what you say he's done, he's already off to a good start. Do NOT accept what's in the movies as technical or historical fact. Make sure he can walk before he tries to run; there IS a logical sequence of steps to be taken in the learning of this craft, patience is required and will be rewarded. Pay attention to what he's doing and you will find yourself becoming curious, then interested, then fascinated, and then,possibly even involved in THIS addiction of ours. Welcome. Best regards, 3dogs |
| 3dogs - Monday, 11/03/03 10:48:27 EST |
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Help getting started : Is there any one that lives in the Cleveland Ohio area that would be willing to help me get started with blacksmithing. I don’t have any experience but I can weld so I guess that’s kind of a start. If you can help me out please e-mail me. Newxuser@hotmail.com |
| - Paul - Monday, 11/03/03 14:24:01 EST |
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Help getting started : Is there any one that lives in the Cleveland Ohio area that would be willing to help me get started with blacksmithing. I don’t have any experience but I can weld so I guess that’s kind of a start. If you can help me out please e-mail me. Newxuser@hotmail.com |
| - Paul - Monday, 11/03/03 14:24:43 EST |
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Paul: I'd suggest that you go to the NAVIGATE anvilfire window at the top of this page, scroll down to the ABANA chapter.com link, and find the chapter nearest you contact the chapter and see when they hold there meetings. I'm sure there is someone in the chapter that would be willing to help you get started. |
| Paw Paw - Monday, 11/03/03 19:50:53 EST |
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Cleveland, Ohio: Now I am not sure but doesn't our own esteemed Thomas the Orange live sorta near there? |
| Ralph - Tuesday, 11/04/03 11:20:31 EST |
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Armour: Scott, many of the armour sites use the english spelling of the word, you will profit from looking up the armour archive and arador; both extensive armour making forums on the web. Almost *NONE!* of the armour being made today is made using wrought iron like the originals and as a corollary most of it is done cold. If he is truly interested in making it as authentically as possible he has a long uphill battle against all the folks who think "steel" is as authentic as you need and never experiment or research further. I'm interested in the history of ferrous metallury processes and wrought iron, blistyer steel etc and would be happy to "consult" with you on it by e-mail. (I also have 6000 pounds of real wrought iron plate...) Thomas Powers |
| Thomas P - Tuesday, 11/04/03 11:25:46 EST |
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25 years: Today me and the misses have been hitched for 25 yrs... Celbrating it this weekend Nov 8th.. Cheers to all.. PS winter has blowen in today.. snow and freezing rain.. |
| Barney - Tuesday, 11/04/03 12:27:36 EST |
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Barney,: That's a good start! (grin) Congratulations to you and your lady. |
| Paw Paw - Tuesday, 11/04/03 13:03:01 EST |
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CHINA QUALITY: Just want to weigh in with my two cents worth. When I talk with manufacturers in China the overwhelming question I get is: " Why do all you rich Americans want to buy so much cheap junk?" This is what they're ASKED to make. Markets are driven by demand NOT by supply. If it didn't sell, they wouldn't make it. Blame the importers for the most part. Bidding is really different in China. You don't show them a drawing and ask for a price. Most of the time you show them a sample (usually) and tell them how much you are willing to pay. They come back with either "yes" or "no". Now, if a customer comes to you looking for a little forged hook and says he can only pay fifty-cents, but he'll take all you can make, what do you do? You either pass or figure out a way to make fifty-cent hooks. Even better when you know he will accept "wham-bam-thank-you-Ma'm" quality. Many things that are already made for the domestic market are of low quality because their customers demand ultra low price too. A country blacksmith could not afford the price of a high quality air hammer so he demands a low price and the manufacturer builds it the best he can and still make a profit. The manufacturer is happy with a small profit and the blacksmith is happy to get a hammer at a price he can afford, even if he has to put a little "sweat equity" into it once in awhile to keep it running. Some people are importing these hammers with a little improvement in quality. You have to realize that the market shrinks fast as the price goes up. Before Chambersburg went under they were quoting around $120,000.00 for a 200 pound self-contained hammer! How many of you "quality minded" guys bought one at that price? "Buy American"? Many manufacturers are finding they can get quality products made in China. We need to be more concerned with these than the junk. Many things you use everyday are made in China - you just don't realize it cause it ain't junk. |
| - grant - Tuesday, 11/04/03 14:34:41 EST |
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PPW: Well, I been married for more than 30 years!.................just not to the same lady! I was asked once "how hany wives have you had?" I answered: "you mean of my own?" |
| - grant - Tuesday, 11/04/03 14:38:35 EST |
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Grant,: Darn good job explaining why all sales are market drive. Of my own? One, for 44 years next february. Of others? None that I wil admit to. (grin) |
| Paw Paw - Tuesday, 11/04/03 14:54:58 EST |
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AND THEN THERE'S "VALUE": The air hammers comming in from China are built to a fairly low quality standard, not junk, but not first class either. All in all they seem to be a good VALUE for the money. Given a choice, I would buy 15 two-hundred pound Chinese hammers rather than the Chambersburg. Set up three or four of them and keep the rest for spares! Now which is more reliable? I have a set of 6"-12" micrometers from china that are pretty good quality and are accurate enough for what I'm using them for (actually they check perfect against a Mitutoyo standard). Have you seen what Starrett wants for the same thing? The choice for me was: Chinese or nothing! Oh yeah, $120.00 for the set! |
| - grant - Tuesday, 11/04/03 15:05:14 EST |
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Paw-Paw: Wow! 44 years. And to the same woman! You musta been.....what.......40 years old when you got married, eh? ;) |
| - grant - Tuesday, 11/04/03 16:57:35 EST |
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Pawpaw, Do people live that long? I've been maried for 22Years to the same women. |
| ptree - Tuesday, 11/04/03 17:25:05 EST |
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Great anvil deal!: I don't usually recommend buying things off of eBay, but this lloks like you couldn't lose. A PW anvil for a buck a pound. Yes, the heel was broken off at the hardy hole, but it looks like the rest of it is in pristine condition. How can you go wrong? If the shipping wouldn't kill me, (and if I though I might actually lose the Iron in the Hat for the Pettingzoo), I'd snatch it up in a minute. |
| vicopper - Tuesday, 11/04/03 18:02:29 EST |
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Grant,: Catch em young, and train them right. (grin) ptree, Yep. Vic, where on eBay? |
| Paw Paw - Tuesday, 11/04/03 18:08:12 EST |
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Cheap tools: I agree with Grant. Some of the market for Chinese imports is people who dont know any better and think they are getting a high quality product for a low quality price. But its not all suckers. Plenty of us buy and keep buying "junk" from HF and others because such tools have their place. Sure I would like a brand new, $500, beverly shear but I cant justify the expense for a tool that gets used only occasionaly. $90 for a cheap HF version and a few evenings work yields a serviceable tool - it's no beverly but its a lot better than nothing, in fact it aint bad. I have one of those $50 swivel in all directions chinese vises. Doesnt compare with a good quality machinist vise but nevertheless its very useful and a good deal for the money. Its also nice to have a vise that I dont worry about because it cost $400 or because its an antique. If I want to use it as a welding jig, I dont hesitate. Another thing. I remember when "Made in Japan" was synonymous with "junk" 30 years later, Americans were scrambling to compete with the quality standards of the Japanese. Cheap low quality products are a natural for a country in the process of industrializing itself but its just one step along the the way. |
| - adam - Tuesday, 11/04/03 18:51:00 EST |
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Adam,: There is a great deal of sense in what you say. |
| Paw Paw - Tuesday, 11/04/03 19:02:57 EST |
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Anvil: OOOPS! http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3251765765&category=13869 cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3251765765&category=13869 |
| vicopper - Tuesday, 11/04/03 19:02:58 EST |
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Cheap tools: I agree with Grant and Adam on this one. I'm just about to send off an order to HF for something over a grand's worth of stuff. While it may be a heck of a lot of money, I'll be getting a good value for my bucks because I'm only getting the things that will do what I need done. I take into account the fact that they won't be the ne plus ultra in quality and may need a bit of tweaking to make right. I accept that they'll require a bit more care and feeding than a top-of-the-line tool for the same job. BUT...I am a hobbiest at most of things I want these tools for, so I can afford to settle for somewhat less than the very best. I've also bought enough of their stuff over the years that I've gotten a feel for what is going to be serviceable and what is going to just pee me off. The compressor I'm getting will run the PH I'm building just fine and do it for years to come, with a bit of care. It won't compete with a big Sullair or Ingersoll Industrial, but so what? I don't need it to and won't ask it to. The ersatz Beverly shear ain't the "real" thing, but it's still way better than nothing and just fine for my needs. The amount of money I will save by getting those things will allow me to also get a heavy-duty grinder, some big casters for the work table, a welder cart and a batch of needed consumables that cost a fortune here. Buying Harbor Freight's Chinese made stuff doesn't make me un-American, it just makes me able to do things that I couldn't do if I had to pay for the equivalent tools in U.S. made high-end equipment. The choice is HF or nothing, so I choose HF...with my eyes wide open. Now, if I was buying new flexible body armor for work, I would ONLY get the very best that money can buy, and damn the cost. Who cares about the "warranty" on the thing anyway, my next-of-kin? I care about my tired old hindquarters and will pay the tariff, whatever it is. (grin) |
| vicopper - Tuesday, 11/04/03 19:36:50 EST |
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Paw Paw: Being married for forty four years is quite an accomplishment. But you might want to look over your shoulder before you post something like that. Women have this funny thing about ages and dates. Okay. It's safe. Old lady is watching TV. Thirty years last March. |
| - Larry - Tuesday, 11/04/03 20:20:52 EST |
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Larry,: Not Sheri. She doesn't care about the passing years any more than I do. |
| Paw Paw - Tuesday, 11/04/03 20:36:14 EST |
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Larry,: Meant to add to the previous a congratulations, but I hit the wrong darn key. (wry grin) |
| Paw Paw - Tuesday, 11/04/03 20:37:12 EST |
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Longship Company in History Channel Filming: Last Saturday we were involved in a shoot for one of the production companies working with the History Channel. The subject was the historical and legendary King Arthur. For the historical period we dragged out our best Anglo-Saxon war gear and "de-Vikigized" the Fyrdraca. Off came the oar racks and dragon head. Shields (A-S style) were stowed inboard. A temporary horses head, put together by Leonard Leshuk, one of our board members, was set on the prow, and the scales on the sternpost were covered with black gaffer's tape and a huge yarn horse tail was hung from the top. Our early pattern storm sail, a prominent salmon/pink color, was brailed to the yard and hoisted up fore and aft, then steadied with the braces. A site had been selected with trees and shore for a neutral background and docks on the other side of the creek for the cameras. In addition we had several other vessels as camera boats. The morning mostly consisted of "row left to right" and "row right to left" and "aim right at the dock" and "aim directly away from the dock" with the crew frozen at their stations due to continuity. Alas, I was trapped at the helm the entire time! ;-) Then they got out the smoke machine to provide fog effects. Of course, the smoke boat was moving with the cameraman aboard, and we were moving, and the smoke was moving; so getting a shot of us coming out of the fog took about a dozen and a half tries. After a short break we reloaded all the folks on the ship, armored up the warriors, and did scenes of the ship running up on shore and the warriors jumping off the bow and moving onto the beach. And then they'd get back aboard and do it over from a different angle, and get aboard again and… They were dripping so much water aboard that we had to pump the bilge. Then we filmed a scene that I had suggested, since we had so many of our women present. We set the ship with the side towards shore, rigged the gangplank, and had the women first offload baskets, chests, iron cookware (blacksmithing tie-in) and other items that one might need if you had come there to stay, and then had the women helped down the gangplank to shore. Looked good and made the point that this was invasion settlement, not just a smash-and-grab raid. (And that's why we're speaking "English" and not "British".) After a quick lunch we rerigged the ship for the "Romantic Arthur;" vaguely set in a 12th century context. Back on went the dragon's head, off went the gaffer's tape and horse tail, the yellow and black main sail and yard was bent to the halyards, and the ship was crewed with four of us and the requisite "three ladies" to carry the dead Arthur off to Avelon. Mat Amt, who sometimes posts here, (Quintus of the XX Legion to some of you) was neatly laid out on the gangplank athwartships, abaft the mast and shrouds. (For you land-lubbers, that's cross-wise behind the mast and side rigging. :-) ) One of our Ladies was Janet (who usually shows up at Camp Fenby with her friend, Terry) who stands about 6 feet tall, with long gray white hair; another member of our crew, Casey, stood in a black hooded cape (belonging to my wif) on the thwart so that she was about even in height with Janet. Best of all Alix, our Longship Company treasurer, wore a 12th century dress she had made years ago, but the yellow and black in the dress perfectly mirrored the yellow and black on the sail. She stood on the lyfting (quarterdeck) at the helm. The effect was to give the impression that it was HER ship! I crouched down at the starboard stern oar, wearing an arming cap, and looked mournful while directing ship operations. Mat looked dead. We were towed out to the middle of the river (about a mile wide there) with a neutral shore as a background and sailing into the sunset, while the camera boat ran about us, with and without the smoke machine, and avoiding jet skiers and other powered anachronisms in the background. For a "romantic" closing I think it will look smashing. Speaking of smashing there was a interesting incident when we were under tow that night when we just missed a daymark and snapped off one of the oars, but that's another story. The only bad side is that the production is not slated to air until December of '04, to coincide with a Disney production about King Arthur. Ah well, that's Hollywood! ;-) Having managed to smash my right elbow into the gun'l, I've refrained from any heavy hammer work for the next few days. Back to planning and puttering! Go viking! |
| Bruce Blackistone (Atli) - Tuesday, 11/04/03 22:57:10 EST |
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Getting quality work done in China:: Yeah, you can bid it. And hope you get the quality you want/specify/sample. Good luck. Can be done, but controlling it is a trick. Must have someone on site who knows and can be trusted. Or you can build/start your own factory and train your own workers. Training is the key. The average Chinese worker just doesn't KNOW stuff needed to make good parts. Chinese want to work. They are a hard working people. And they want to learn. They are sponges. After they have their families bellies full anyway. Now contrast that with the young workforce in America. My problem is the corporate greed mongers who are only moving to China and other cheap labor so they can line their own pockets thicker. And the politicians who are getting paid by them to allow it to happen. And of course, the voting public who doesn't see what the rammifications are. Chinese quality is getting better all the time. Learning curve, as has been said. Training. Education. Desire. The hungry will find a way. The fat, greedy, lazy and ignorant will destroy for their kids, what their forebears have built for them. Inevitable repeats of history I guess. Still a shame. Course, it's a shame, too, that it gets harder every day to convince an engineer or purchasing agent that the low first price is not always the low life cycle value. I hear more and more that the first price is king because they have to compete with the Chinese or Indians. Whoring any prodcut brings the whole thing lower. Blame the importers like Grant said. And now, also, the middle men who want to take a cut to hook you up with the factory in China who can make your parts. Parasites. Feeding on the ignorant and lazy. |
| - Tony - Tuesday, 11/04/03 23:34:53 EST |
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Lack of Real Trade Policy: Our lack of a trade policy that benifits the American worker is the primary problem. Everyone goes nuts any time a protectionist policy is discussed but everyone forgets that the US is the worlds largest single market. Yes, puting duties on products raises their prices. But if the increased prices mean we make and sell more products at home then wages will be higher to match the higher prices. Certain critical industries need to be protected and encouraged. We have just about killed our steel industry by alowing dumping by overseas suppliers while increasing regulations. Steel is a basic industry that a modern society MUST have. I believe we need a CLEAN steel industry. This increases costs. By buying lower cost imported steel we are often just moving the polution off-shore. It it the job of a republic (our form of government) to do what is best economicaly for the people. NOT for a few rich people but for ALL the people. Before the US had income taxes almost ALL tax revenues were from import duties. Now we tax workers out of being able to own a home while exporting jobs by alowing cheap imports to ship jobs overseas. Lack of import duties is why American companies can afford to gut factories, ship the equipment elsewhere and use 3rd world slave labor to compete with the workers that originaly built those companies. . . NAFTA is supposed to provide safeguards to prevent industries from going to Mexico and dumping polutants and using underage labor. To hold up their end Mexico has stricter environmental laws than the US. However, they are not enforced. Remember Perots "whooshing" sound of jobs leaving America? That wind has now been blowing so long that we no longer hear it. . . The other day one government official repeated the idiotic Reganonics of a "service industry". WHO are going to service if we have no basic industry. What kind of service? Tourism? Maids, gardeners and whores for the world? A "service" economy and exporting raw materials is what underdeveloped 3rd world countries do. . . To big business "free trade" means doing anything you want at any cost without reguard for the consequences. Corporations are like machines and have no morals. And today when the heads of many of those corporations have no personal morals it is much worse. Lack of a consistant long term economic policy is going to destroy life as we know it in America. It has been happening for a long time and we are just starting to feel the tingle of what will become excruating pain. For years I have tried hard to support my neighbors by "buying American" but it has become more and more difficult, NOT because of price but because of lack of choice. This lack of choice has been orchastrated by big industry and lack of a government trade policy. I do not have a solution, but I NEVER vote for either of the big political parties. I vote for independents. And I would gladly vote for ANY madman (or woman) willing to face down congress and do the right thing. ANY president can stop "pork barrel" spending. All they have to do is veto ALL legislation that has non-germain spending attached from EITHER party. YES, congress can override a veto, but not the majority of the time. On many occasions that pork was attached to the government operating budget. Several presidents have held out but they have ALL given in, they blinked. We need a president that won't blink and works for the people not big corps. . |
| - guru - Wednesday, 11/05/03 10:58:32 EST |
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Viking Film Adventure: GREAT STUFF! Now where are the photos! ;) I know. . taken with your 800AD camera. . |
| - guru - Wednesday, 11/05/03 11:46:04 EST |
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MOVIES?: I can't find it. I'm looking for the name of the film Orlando Bloom is staring in as, once again, a fellow smith. I beleieve it was mentioned that he should study a real smith if he is to be portraying us. Please the dg was very interested in luaghing at this film with me. any help in getting the name would be greatly appreciated. |
| dragon-boy - Wednesday, 11/05/03 13:53:54 EST |
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Orlando Bloom: He's in "Pirates of the Carribean". One interesting thing was when he picked up a red-hot blade to fight with. It held up pretty well for its heat. I wonder what type of steel? :-) As an aside, I went to a Blue Man Group concert last night. In one part they have what can best be described as a 3-D cartoon sequence where the cartoons are "playing" different percussion "instruments". One of the instruments is the good old wrench banging on the anvil, common to symphonies across the country. |
| MarcG - Wednesday, 11/05/03 15:48:37 EST |
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I sure don't know what the answer is. Service jobs? What, like McDonalds? Good time to be a dock worker I guess. A lot of white collar stuff is going over seas too. Engineering, software etc. With worldwide telecom even customer service is going off shore. Think automation will save us? I got news for you: THEY have automation too! See a lot of CNC over there too. It ain't just the cost per hour either. Toyota puts a car together in 2/3 the manhours of Ford or GM. Many people would argue that the Toyota is better quality to boot. How come Japanese cars return 70cents on the dollar after three years vs 50cents? Greedy corporations? What SHOULD they do when they're getting beat up? |
| - grant - Wednesday, 11/05/03 15:50:47 EST |
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not PoC: marc- thanks, perhaps it was a rumour, but I thought I read that he was portraying a bs turneed knight. If this is up comming I would Definately like to know the title. |
| dragon-boy - Wednesday, 11/05/03 16:21:48 EST |
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Hey guys you do not have to settle for cheap chinese crap. Visit you local flea markets, plenty of tooling there. Most i paid for a machinist vise is $10, Parker vises no less. I have one of these babies on each of my tables. How about auctions plenty out there spend penniies on a daolar on Iron workers,do all band saws. top quality. Just look and have patcience. yes Guru too much going abroad I agree. next thing you know they will be making Hummers in China. We are transfering all our knowledge abroad and becoming a nation of hamberger flippers and retail clerks. No disparagment of these professions intended. |
| - Ron J. - Wednesday, 11/05/03 19:45:45 EST |
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Orlando Bloom: I just did a quick search on imdb. How's this one? Kingdom of Heaven Plot Outline: During the Crusades of the 12th Century, a young blacksmith leads the people of Jerusalem in defense against the Crusaders. It may start production this Jan. |
| MarcG - Wednesday, 11/05/03 19:47:49 EST |
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Service jobs....like McDonalds or Wendys, flipping burgers...around here they don't speak english...so if we don't get some border integrity we'll lose the service jobs as well..... |
| Ellen - Wednesday, 11/05/03 21:30:23 EST |
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On jobs going off shore. Indiana State gov't has given the data crunching job for its unemployement branch to a company in India. Now that a slap in the face. |
| ptree - Wednesday, 11/05/03 22:03:28 EST |
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ptree: As much as I hate to say it, given the caliber of many of the "specialists" I've seen "working" at the Bureau of Unemployment Compensation in Michigan, for instance, The State of Indiana is probably getting more bang for its buck in India. Accounting is kind of a specialty among the East Indians. It used to be the general concensus that the primary goal of the bureaucracy was to sustain the bureaucracy. Now it looks like it's trying to eat itself into extinction. Then the Federal bureaucracy can take control. Ah, but enough of my paranoia. |
| 3dogs - Thursday, 11/06/03 02:14:18 EST |
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Orlando's Latest: Odd, I seem to remember on some of the earlier descriptions that he's a blacksmith who joins the Crusaders and lurks his way up in the organization! If he's defending AGAINST the Crusaders, that will be quite a plot-twist. |
| Bruce Blackistone - Thursday, 11/06/03 08:51:36 EST |
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marc: Thanks that is exactly what I was looking for. Ps what is a "good"price for a tap &die set? ebay has a few for 15 dollars. just wondering if they'd be worth the $$. |
| dragon-boy - Thursday, 11/06/03 09:21:06 EST |
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Orlando: I checked a couple other movie sites and he's described as a defender against the Crusaders in all of them. It's being directed by Ridley Scott and they're expected to spend over $100M on this "epic adventure". Not due in theaters until 2005. We'll just have to satisfy ourselves with the next Lord of the Rings and Pirates II for our blacksmithing content :-) |
| MarcG - Thursday, 11/06/03 11:01:01 EST |
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Orlando: I checked a couple other movie sites and he's described as a defender against the Crusaders in all of them. It's being directed by Ridley Scott and they're expected to spend over $100M on this "epic adventure". Not due in theaters until 2005. We'll just have to satisfy ourselves with the next Lord of the Rings and Pirates II for our blacksmithing content :-) |
| MarcG - Thursday, 11/06/03 11:01:08 EST |
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Taps and Dies: D.B. What is a "set"? The good industrial taps I buy range in price from $5 to $15 each, depending on the size (up to 1/2") Dies can go for about twice that or more. A set from 10-32" to 1/2" I would expect to pay about $100 for. If you only need to tap a few holes or chase a few threads, a cheep set could be all you need. This is another case of you get what you pay for. |
| Wayne P - Thursday, 11/06/03 11:32:12 EST |
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Taps and Dies: I've been looking at 'sets' of taps and dies also. Darned expensive, which is why I'm still a'looking. Seems like most of the ones you see in Home Depot, Lowe's and such are all metric. What's up with that? |
| - Matt Berge - Thursday, 11/06/03 12:12:54 EST |
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Matt: Good taps and dies are expensive, but you get what you pay for. The cheap "sets" are usually good for one use. So the more expensive "professional" grade are actually a bargin. |
| Paw Paw - Thursday, 11/06/03 12:27:28 EST |
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all: Well thanks me boyos, I guess I'll keep looking and save in inordert to get some pro grade stuff. Any sugestions for name brands? |
| - Dragon-boy - Thursday, 11/06/03 13:07:12 EST |
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Taps & Dies: Metric dies are a worldwide market. UNC & UNF are almost exclusively for the US market. 'Though amazingly, US spec threads turn up in products from countries which have been metric for generations. The size & pitch are weird and nonsensical ‘till you realize that the part was actually measured in inches. . . |
| - John Lowther - Thursday, 11/06/03 16:54:08 EST |
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Most of the import tap and die sets I have tried have been unable to make even one threaded hole in mild steel. I highly suspect that the marking HSS is fantasy. These taps have appeared to act as if a 50/50 mix of used beer cans and mild steel. A good American made, HSS tap, used with good and copious lubricant, in a properly sized hole should make several hundred perfect threaded holes.(do it wrong, and anything more than one hole is good)I inherited many slightly used taps from my old employer, and I will look for brand names and post later. We used upwards of a thousand taps/month for many years, and if the brand came from there they are reliable(as long as still made in U.S.) |
| ptree - Thursday, 11/06/03 18:45:25 EST |
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I looked and the brand i have the most of is BESLEY. |
| ptree - Thursday, 11/06/03 20:43:31 EST |
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Taps and Dies: I guess it's sort of like swords: only good taps and dies get to be old taps and dies. I have a mixed set inherited from an uncle, csrefully stashed away in a chest in the forge. I don't use them often, but they're invaluable when I need one for modern work or repairs. NPS Springfield Armory, where "accuracy" had many meanings! |
| Bruce Blackistone (Atli) - Friday, 11/07/03 08:50:30 EST |
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Taps: The brands that I see the most are American Vermont and Brubaker These hold up well and will serve you for many years. I have never heard of BESLEY but that doesn't mean a thing! |
| Wayne P - Friday, 11/07/03 09:07:57 EST |
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Mo' taps: I always thought a "set" of taps was the 3 types of a particular size. Lesseenow, I think it was Starting, Plug and Bottom. Corrections graciously accepted. (Ye grynne) 3dogs |
| 3dogs - Friday, 11/07/03 10:23:56 EST |
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Mo' taps: I always thought a "set" of taps was the 3 types of a particular size. Lesseenow, I think it was Starting, Plug and Bottom. Corrections graciously accepted. (Ye grynne) 3dogs |
| 3dogs - Friday, 11/07/03 10:31:06 EST |
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TAPS, DIES and THREADS: I have found most hardware store brands to be inadequate and that includes the Vermnont American brand and those at Ace hardware. However, many companies make different quality levels and the hardware store lines may not be the brands commercial tap. My supplier carries Brubaker. Buy taps from a machine tool dealer or commercial equipment supplier. Order them if you have to but NEVER keep cheap taps in your kit. All you are doing is creating a long expensive frustrating day for yourself. ANY tap that is bright plated is a bad tap. Good taps are either bright ground or black-oxide (like drills). HSS are the lowest quality that are suitable, cobalt and chrome vanadium are better. The gold titanium coating is a plus HOWEVER many cheap worthless taps have this coating to fool the consumer. . . That is the importer's spec often found in hardware stores. ALWAYS buy the best industrial quality taps you can find. ONE broken tap in a nearly finished piece of work can cost you a LOT more than the cost of the tap. Even a $25 tap is not worth a ruined piece of work or a day getting the broken pieces out. Often the only solution is to move the hole and if you cannot then the work is scrap. Discard taps that have the slightest damage (same reason). The specs for tap drills are based on the percentage of thread. 70% thread takes about half the force to tap as 75%. If there is any question about the steel (not annealed, unknown grade) a 60% thread will work just fine. There is no correct tap drill for 1/2-13 above 60% (others must be special ground). The 27/64" drill listed on many charts is greater than 75% thread and creates a LOT of grief. NEVER try to tap a hand drilled hole over 60%. Hand drilled holes are almost always curved and result in broken tapes if the hole is over 2 diameters deep. Machine drilled holes over 1-1/2 diameters should not be tapped to over 70% thread. ALWAYS use a good tapping solution. WD-40 will work in a pinch. Most fasteners will pull in two with 1-1/2 diameters of thread engagement at 70% so there is no need for deep taped holes. If you need a long bolt you can often counter drill the hole and tap a short section. It is best if the taped hole is drilled with a drill press. After drilling do not move the work. Chamfer the hole in place, then use a center to support the tap and tap wrench in the drill press (or lathe) and start the tap using the machine alignment. To use the above method you may need to check the work height before the tool changes to be sure the tools fit. In some cases you may remove the drill chuck and replace it with a lathe center. In other cases you may want a short center made to be chucked. These are easy to make and hand ground may be accurate enough. Machinists also have little fixtures for holding the tap wrench in perfect alignment. An on-size counterbore can also help align a hand held tap. When taping small holes it pays to buy multiple taps and discard them when they start to take slightly more force (feel dull). Same for the tap drills. If the corners are chipped they make rough undersized holes that will cause a tap to break. I almost always buy taps and dies as-needed. They do come in "sets" in a case but are very expensive. I don't think I have ever heard of the different forms called a set but is is possible. LOOK at the class work you are doing. Most people never need a tap smaller than 1/4-20 or larger than 1/2-13. So you need 1/4, 5/16, 3/8 and 1/2" (8 to 14mm). 7/16" is rarely used except in some automotive work so it was skipped. Get one each in coarse thread (NC), fine (NF) if you want to spend the money. Coarse English threads are proportional and that is why the odd threads like 1/2-13 and 7/16-14. The fine threads are usualy series threads (similar profile in different sizes). Metric threads are all series threads. And for all the hoopla over "standard" metric the Germans and Japanese cannot agree on a fine thread. . . |
| - guru - Friday, 11/07/03 11:41:57 EST |
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CSI Iron in the Hat: Thanks for the last few ticket sales! If you did not get your order in on time your last chance is to track down either Paw-Paw or myself. The drawing will be held at Paw-Paw's demo Saturday the 15th about noon and I will announce as soon as possible. Some lucky winner is going to get a GREAT anvil. |
| - guru - Friday, 11/07/03 12:09:50 EST |
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anvil: Folks I had a dream last night. in it were a lot of bearded men in overalls, and they were all crying cause i won the anvil! Hahahahahahahahahahha! |
| Dragon-boy - Friday, 11/07/03 12:38:48 EST |
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Production in China: This morning there was a story on NPR about Briggs & Stratton threatening to move their production to China if California is allowed to impose emission controls on small gas engines. They claimed it would cost $75 million to re-tool for emission-controlled engines in the US and only $10 million to set up in China. Somehow 7.5 times the cost to re-tool existing plants vs. building new plants in China seems unlikely to me. Several senators from states with B&S plants have introduced bills to preempt state regulation of small gas engines. |
| John Lowther - Friday, 11/07/03 15:10:45 EST |
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John,: > Somehow 7.5 times the cost to re-tool existing plants vs. building new plants in China seems unlikely to me. Doesn't seem unlikely to me, when you consider the relative labor costs. |
| Paw Paw - Friday, 11/07/03 15:51:15 EST |
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Californication: John, Doesn't surprise me a bit. California has already outlawed the sale and use of two-stroke engines like on weed whackers and the like. If they outlaw 4-stroke engines too, then everybody can go back to mowing the grass with a goat. No, wait...you can't have a goat in CA, either. Since they're mostly vegetabletarians out there, I guess they'll just graze their lawns themselves. (grin) NOte: I am not disparaging vegetarians. I am practically a vegetarian myself...I only eat vegetarian animals. ;-) |
| vicopper - Friday, 11/07/03 17:28:07 EST |
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SGensh: More on Taps- What type of hole you are tapping should also influence your choice of taps. If you are hand tapping blind holes a standard taper,plug, and bottom sequence of hand taps with a forward and reversing rotation makes a fully threaded hole. If you were tapping the same hole with a tapping head or a hand tapper you would use a spiral fluted plug tap which would be driven in one continuous motion. The chips would drawn out of the hole by the flutes. If you are power tapping a through hole you would probably choose a plug gun tap instead which would eject its chips in front of it out the far side of the hole. This is easiest with a tapping head of course but I've tapped thousands of holes in steel and aluminum tubing and flats with a reversing hand drill. Normally the material thickness should be no more than twice the tap diameter for these taps. Don't try to run the drill too slowly and be sure to let the tap control your feed. Use lots of lube when you start and be sure not to let chips accumulate in the flutes of the taps. Practice through holes with relatively inexpensive taps on a scrap bar first so you don't ruin a critical piece. Using a battery drill with a clutch (on high speed) is a good way to start. You can buy plug gun taps (USA brands) from MSC or McMaster for very reasonable prices. |
| SGensh - Friday, 11/07/03 21:08:44 EST |
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The taps I checked were about 50/50 "BESLEY" or"BENDIX BESLEY" I had 1 Brubaker. These were all high quality production tools. We tapped a variety of materials used in valves like forged c1023, 316SS, Cr-moly steels etc. Most of these were black. As noted by the GURU, there are various coatings. A steam oxide finish is the old traditional finish, and works quite well in common steels. The TiN(titaniium nitride) coating does reduce the drag of the chips, but in hand tapping make little difference in common steels. For an excellent tapping oil for steel and stainless use pipe threading oil. RIGID makes an excellent oil, ask any plumber/pipefitter who threads pipe. It's very available in gallons. A gallon will last a very long time. What makes the pipe threading oils work so well is the addition of sulfur. It will stain some materials such as silver. A trick I learned from our tool and die makers was to start the tap in the drill press as noted by the GURU, but we just LIGHTLY chucked the tap in the chuck or the drill press and started the spindle and feed in a gentle manner untill the chuck slipped. Then stop the spindle and unchuck. Then, tap as usual. |
| ptree - Friday, 11/07/03 21:14:20 EST |
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Jeff, that's a clever idea! I had been turning the chuck by hand until I got stuck and then continue with a tap wrench. Letting the chuck slip is brilliant. Is cutting oil really that much better when hand tapping? |
| adam - Friday, 11/07/03 23:51:17 EST |
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I started buying taps made for my CNC machine from J&L and find they are great for hand tapping as well. With good taps you can feel the difference. Cutting oil? Another area where you can feel the difference. Some of the better ones like Rapid-tap and tap-EZ have had to change their formula, guess they can't use florinated hydrocarbons anymore, but they still work better than regular oil. The old black sulferized lard oils are still great too. |
| - grant - Saturday, 11/08/03 12:11:43 EST |
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Tap Lube: I often use a stick lube for machine or power tapping. (My favorite is Tapmatic Edge Lube) Far less messy than the oils but a little more critical in application. Don't jam a bunch into the flutes just let the tap rub against the stick to pick up a little bit. After the tap is warmed from the first hole it melts on very quickly. Particularly good in Aluminum operations and works for sawing also. |
| SGensh - Saturday, 11/08/03 13:07:29 EST |
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TapFree:: This product was waste dry cleaning fluid with a little beeswax and perfume (to cover the laundry stink). It was trichlorethlene I think. ABSOLUTELY the best. Reduced taping force by four to one or more. Tap life increased to 10:1. Life was good. You could hear it sizzle at the cutting edge when you turned the tap. This cooling at the cut was what made it work so well. This required a thin liquid and a low boiling point. It stated, DO NOT USE in automatic cooling systems and as cutting fluid. . . Well, people did it anyway. Bad fumes when used normally and much worse when abused. The abuse is what ended it. . . The replacements are not nearly as good but are much better than nothing. |
| - guru - Saturday, 11/08/03 13:30:28 EST |
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I am looking for help regarding the construction of a "class A' chimney for my coal forge. I purchased a half-hood with a 8" flue dia. Is 8" stove pipe a suitable/safe chimney? Do I have to go straight up thru the roof or can I elbow out a window? Is their a chimney cap I need to stop hot ash from coming out the chimney? |
| Helmut - Saturday, 11/08/03 14:31:32 EST |
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Tapping experience: Practice, practice, practice. It's a touchy, feely sort of thing. Most of my experience is with A-36, 1018, and annealed 4140. Sharp taps don't stay that way very long. As Grant said, you can feel good cutting. Pushing a less than sharp tap "to get one more hole" or to just "finish the hole" is a recipe for disaster. Always keep new taps in stock specifically to avoid the "one more hole" error. Don't worry about using a slightly bigger than recommended pilot hole, but definitely avoid using a smaller than recommended bit. A good wall chart of metric, alphabetical, numbered, and fractional bit sizes in decimal diameter are a good help here for quick decision making. The spiral flutes are my best choice taps (the ones that look a bit like drill bits), and I try to use those that are 1/2" to 3/4" long in the cutting zone. Most of the shards/cuttings/shavings (whatever they're called--Paul, Jr. on American Chopper calls them stringy things) just come out the top like gangbusters. I do have to stop once in a while to use a magnetic tipped scribe to extract crap from blind holes. I use power tapping a lot with 3/8" and 1/2" NC taps. A magnetic drill with a Jacobs chuck tightened as much by hand as possible. I keep my fingers on the switch and turn it on only momentarily. I pilot drill blind holes deeply to avoid bottoming taps. Handheld drills are conducive to breaking taps by an unsteady hand. I admire Steve's ability, but I can't do it. Junk in the relief grooves of a tap or drill bit will cause jamming and breakage. In and out, in and out, like you know what, is the best way to ensure a well done hole. I have found the only way to keep concentricity as I go from small to larger bits and then the tap is to keep the mag drill locked into one position. It is tedious to unchuck and then rechuck, but concentricity is VITAL to good power tapping. It is surely best to use a tapping head if using the drill press so that forward and reverse actions are quick and controllable. In a mag drill there isn't enough room to mount one. Dexterity and focused concentration are needed. There are taps of different materials for tapping different materials. My machine shop supplier brought this to my attention, and it pays off in tap life to use the right combo. Reading the print in a voluminous catalog like MSC's ought to accomplish the same advice. I haven't checked Machinery Handbook, but I bet it is loaded with knowhow. Tapping fluids vary enormously in productivity. I'd love to have some TapFree. I keep experimenting with brands and don't remember the name of the best stuff I've found--it is in a green and white aerosol can. Come to think of it, I'm on my last can so I gotta try to find some more. This stuff came out of an auction, so might be pretty old. Not as good as the guru says TapFree was. With big diameter taps I use my mill and use a bit holder that allows the tap to determine feed conditions. Again, concentricity is vital. On the mill, one steady downfeed movement is all that's ever needed with spiral groove taps. I don't do much of this big stuff, so my advocacy is cautious. Your mileage may vary. |
| - John Larson - Saturday, 11/08/03 19:59:45 EST |
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Cutting fluid: Haven't worked in a steel shop in about three years, but when I did we used something to lube the mag-drill called "Hawg-Wash". It was a Milwaukee product made specifically for drill coolant and we used it in Milwaukee rotobroach or button drills. Vegetable based compound that came in a small bottle that was mixed with water. Worked very well in all applications I tried. Wonder if any of you guys have any experience with it and would it make a suitable tapping fluid? |
| - Larry - Saturday, 11/08/03 21:46:10 EST |
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Drilling and tapping lubes. From many years experience with power tapping and internal and external die chasing of threads I can offer the following: For the common steels, almost nothing beats a HIGH QUALITY sulfurized oil. This means a name brand like Rigid etc. We found several off brands that were very bad, and also caused derimitis in the employees. The ratio of fat to oil and sulfur in these oils is critical, and if the fat is too high, bad results! Another good choice, that beats every other oil we tried, especially in screw machines was a MASTER CHEMICAL product, OM303. This oil was exceptional in carbon and stainless steels for all screw machine operations, and I now use it in roll splining. Harder to find for the small shop but a gallon or two will last a long time. On Tap Free and the other trichlor products, good riddance! life is too short to spend any of it dead, injuried or in jail. These products did work somewhat, but a good tapping oil will also do the job, and not give off fumes that ARE dangerous. For tapping aluminum, stick tallow is very good, especially with roll taps. In a pinch kerosene will work, but is not nearly as good. On all tapping fluids. To recycle, insure good filtration. Under serious study, we found that a 10 micron filtration prior to reuse improved tool life by about 20%, reduced dermititisis, and improved the thread finish. A simple bag filter rated to 10 microns will work for the small shop. |
| ptree - Sunday, 11/09/03 09:39:12 EST |
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Raffle: There are still about 6 people who have ordered raffle tickets who have not returned their ticket stubs. Tomorrow is just about the last day you have to mail them out to be sure that I get them before saturday. Tommorow is also the last day to order tickets, after that there will not be enough time for tickets and money to make the round trip before Saturday. |
| Paw Paw - Sunday, 11/09/03 17:52:25 EST |
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China, taps: Regarding B&S moving to China, I suspect that the 10 million might be to move existing manufacturing equipment to an existing facility in China and the 75 million is for retooling completely here. If B&S moves to China, they will not buy anything appreciably different than if they put it here. There is no way B&S engines or any precision machining will be done completely on Chinese machine tools or tooling. Not yet. So the tooling cost is not significantly different. There must be more to the story? I don't think B&S could put up a significant manufacturing facility in China, for US market engines, for less than 50 million. Labor is far cheaper in China, but building and equipment is not that much different for that type of manufacturing. I doubt there is much labor in a B&S engine anyway. That's my experience. And I just took some card money off of engineer friends who work in China more than they want to. Even good taps break. We EDM them out on parts that are worth it. Actually, we thread mill much of the production stuff now. Better threads and virtually no damaged holes. I really like roll tapped holes, but getting roll tapping right can be a trick. Coolant, TiN coating, and correct tap drill size are essential. When buying taps, make sure you understand what H limits are. There are classes of tapped hole size. Different H-limit taps produce different pitch diameter threads. Tight or loose. Cheap (even name brand from a hardware store) taps can be all over the map from an H-limit standpoint so may not be consistent from tap to tap. Machinery's Handbook has info. MSC catalog might discuss it. Sulphur cutting oil is good. LPS makes a green water based cutting fluid that works well too. I can't remember the name. But it's sticky when it dries. I like tapping holes in a lathe when I can and it's lathe work anyway. Rotating the part with the tap centered and started with a center in the tailstock. Tap drilling done in the same chucking. Tapping heads in radial drills are sweet too! Seems like cheating almost. Grin John! I agree that cheap taps and dies are a complete waste of time and money. I bought one cheap set from Whorbor fright one time. I let kids wreck them on inconsequential work so they learn. |
| - Tony - Sunday, 11/09/03 18:10:27 EST |
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Cameron Stoker's Grasshopper Treadle Hammer: Cameron Stoker, of Santa Fe, NM, has recently completed a Grasshopper Treadle Hammer, and has kindly provided photographs and commentary: As far as I know, this is the first Grasshopper completed from the plans. (The one in Marshall Bienstock's shop is the prototype. At least two other people have begun work, but I haven't heard that they've completed the hammer.) Bruce NJ Cameron Stoker's Grasshopper Treadle Hammer |
| - Bruce - Sunday, 11/09/03 19:23:33 EST |
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Yet More Tapping : Another take on Tony's post about tapping in the lathe. One of my lathes is an old Atlas 10" which has a #3 Morse taper in the headstock bore. I have mounted my Procunier tapping head in that taper with the torque arm against the ways( rubber sleeve on the arm) to tap 2-56 holes in the ends of 1/4" thick Aluminum bars for an environmental enclosure we make for paintings. The bars are held in a fixture on the cross slide for both drilling and tapping. I used to have terrible trouble with this operation on drill press fixtures but I think we have only broken two of these tiny taps in several hundred holes with the lathe setup. I remembered seeing old illustrations of cross drilling on the lathe with bits in the headstock and the material against a plate held in the tailstock and thought why not try something similar. |
| SGensh - Sunday, 11/09/03 19:36:16 EST |
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power hammer 4 sale: 200lb beaudry 7.5hp 3ph motor new drive belts saftey gards on belts running in my shop now sonoma ca ph 707 996 8541 come by and test drive it 3500.00 will load on your truck aprox wt 6000lb |
| - gforge - Sunday, 11/09/03 22:04:02 EST |
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Tapping Heads: I bought a Tapmatic tapping head for a job where I had hundreds of 1/2-13 NC holes 1.2" deep to tap. The fancy black anodized tool was mounted in my worn out hundred year old drill press (not my pretty Royersford). . . The contrast of new to old rusted machine and craters of the moon table was rather out of place. But the two worked together GREAT. Spent a day making a jig to hold the pins to be cross drilled and tapped which used a modified vise-grip for a quick clamp. Then drilled and tapped 175 1-1/4" pins and drilled and counter bored 175 mates the following day. . . All were perfect and only used one tap and tap drill. This could have easily been an architectural job with 300-400 holes. The Tapmatic head will fit my lathe and other drill presses. However, don't buy a tapping head to tap just a few holes. Setup time alone is not worth it. But if you have 50 or more to do. . . The job I did paid for the head AND made money. |
| - guru - Sunday, 11/09/03 23:59:46 EST |
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Every Once in a while.: This is long, but I think you folks will appreciate it. I darn sure did. It's quite a change from 40 years ago, and long overdue. *********** The writer and his wife live in LA and both work for Uncle Sam. A Day at Baltimore Airport Dear Friends and Family, I hope that you will spare me a few minutes of your time to tell you about something that I saw on Monday, October 27. I had been attending a conference in Annapolis and was coming home on Sunday. As you may recall, Los Angeles International Airport was closed on Sunday, October 26, because of the fires that affected air traffic control. Accordingly, my flight, and many others, were canceled and I wound up spending a night in Baltimore. My story begins the next day. When I went to check in at the United counter Monday morning I saw a lot of soldiers home from Iraq. Most were very young and all had on their desert camouflage uniforms. This was as change from earlier, when they had to buy civilian clothes in Kuwait to fly home. It was a visible reminder that we are in a war. It probably was pretty close to what train terminals were like in World War II. Many people were stopping the troops to talk to them, asking them questions in the Starbucks line or just saying "Welcome Home." In addition to all the flights that had been canceled on Sunday, the weather was terrible in Baltimore and the flights were backed up. So, there were a lot of unhappy people in the terminal trying to get home, but nobody that I saw gave the soldiers a bad time. By the afternoon, one plane to Denver had been delayed several hours. United personnel kept asking for volunteers to give up their seats and take another flight. They weren't getting many takers. Finally, a United spokeswoman got on the PA and said this, "Folks. As you can see, there are a lot of soldiers in the waiting area. They only have 14 days of leave and we're trying to get them where they need to go without spending any more time in an airport then they have to. We sold them all tickets, knowing we would oversell the flight. If we can, we want to get them all on this flight. We want all the soldiers to know that we respect what you're doing, we are here for you and we love you." At that, the entire terminal of cranky, tired, travel-weary people, a cross-section of America, broke into sustained and heartfelt applause. The soldiers looked surprised and very modest. Most of them just looked at their boots. Many of us were wiping away tears. And, yes, people lined up to take the later flight and all the soldiers went to Denver on that flight. That little moment made me proud to be an American, and also told me why we will win this war. If you want to send my little story on to your friends and family, feel free. This is not some urban legend. I was there, I was part of it, I saw it happen. Will Ross Administrative Judge United States Department of Defense. Classification: UNCLASSIFIED |
| Paw Paw - Monday, 11/10/03 08:46:05 EST |
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Ppw: Hey pawpaw, I just wanted to say tanks for that tidbit. Just when all seems dark in the world a small grain of hope trickles forth from unexpected places. I for one appreciated the reminder that humanity has a heart! |
| - Dragon-boy - Monday, 11/10/03 09:46:58 EST |
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DB: Made me feel good, too. |
| Paw Paw - Monday, 11/10/03 10:12:47 EST |
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DB: You want to hear a story about decent people? Sheri's flight was an hour late getting out of the local airport, so she missed her connect in Dallas. She was trying desperatly to get to her mother's bedside before Evie died. American Airlines announced the problem at the boarding gate and three people stood up to volunteer their seat. One of them was a Marine, on his way home from Iraq! Sheri told him she'd take a later flight rather than take his seat, because her retired Green Beret would be most un-happy if she took his seat and made him late. At that one of the other volunteers, asked if I was a Viet Vet. Sheri answered yes, and the guy said, "Please take my seat, and tell my brother I said "Welcome Home!" Sheri told me over the telephone after Evie passed away. I cried. Sheri had sent him a thank you note from Ca. I sent him another one from here. |
| Paw Paw - Monday, 11/10/03 11:37:05 EST |
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ppw: It seems to me that the little things in life make for the best and most heart touching of heroic stories. Thank God for people who do little things in service to others! |
| Dragon-boy - Monday, 11/10/03 11:47:12 EST |
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NEAT VISE TOOL : looks like it would be easy to copy Vice tool on ebay |
| - habu - Monday, 11/10/03 12:18:54 EST |
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PPW: Where else can you get three kindly answers to the question "I have and friend who has a Machine, how much is it worth?" and one of the same grizzled old pharts bring a tear to you eye in one morning? I raise my cup to you all |
| habu - Monday, 11/10/03 12:28:20 EST |
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Habu, great post on the vice tool, thanks. |
| Ellen - Monday, 11/10/03 13:43:34 EST |
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Possible small commission job for historical smith in the CSI members forum.... |
| Ellen - Monday, 11/10/03 13:56:08 EST |
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Vets : Great story Paw Paw, both the judges and yours. Ya, the eyes are a bit moist. |
| Wayne P - Monday, 11/10/03 14:18:25 EST |
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Vice/vise tool: There are some more illustrations of the angle vice clamp in "Professional Smithing" by Donald Streeter, FYI. Looks quite useful. Going off at a slight tangent - a spelling question: Over here, we have vice grips, leg vices and the occasional vice . Are all three of those "vise" in American English? (I'm not even starting on advise versus advice!) |
| Peter - Monday, 11/10/03 14:46:31 EST |
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LABOR?: Tony: What part would NOT be labor? We always seem to think of "labor & materials". But why do materials cost money? Because of the labor that goes into them. Why does a bolt cost money? Because of the labor and mterials that go into it. Why does the steel for the bolt cost money? Because of the labor to mine the ore and coal and produce the steel etc. What about the machines that make the bolt or transport the ore? Labor. Then you come down to how much does the Chinese government want to have this plant and how much will they subsidize it to create more jobs for many years to come? |
| - grant - Monday, 11/10/03 14:50:39 EST |
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Pete,: A vice is a bad habit, a vise is a tool to hold something with. Vice Grips are a portable tool to hold onto things with. |
| Paw Paw - Monday, 11/10/03 14:59:49 EST |
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Pete,: And I mis-spelled Vise in Vise Grips. |
| Paw Paw - Monday, 11/10/03 15:13:24 EST |
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Mick Korinek: Please contact me email as soon as possible. |
| Paw Paw - Monday, 11/10/03 15:14:01 EST |
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English Vices ;-): The Oxford English Dictionary archly notes that "The (earlier) spelling 'vise' is now usual only in U.S." As I've noted elsewhere, the vise is the only major blacksmithing tool that was not available in the early medieval period. So I guess the Vikings in England had no vices! :-) Go viking! |
| Bruce Blackistone (Atli) - Monday, 11/10/03 15:18:40 EST |
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The Rest of the Story:: Now why was Sheri's flight an hour late getting off the ground? Because some IDIOT (Read that as a$$hole!) tried to sneak a loaded rifle through security IN HIS CARRY ON baggage! When TSA confronted him, he broke free and ran. Got away. So they had to do a full lockdown of the airport. Deplane all passengers, search every aircraft at the terminal, search ALL of the passengers, and re-plane all of them. Give TSA credit, they managed to do it in an hours. GSO is not as big as Atlanta, but it's not a Podunk, one grass strip airport, either. The idiot? Oh, he left his ID in the baggage, the cops were waiting for him when he got home. Jerk! |
| Paw Paw - Monday, 11/10/03 15:35:20 EST |
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Vice versa: Thanks. It's a fun topic - especially looking at the divergence in the languages. I *think* vise superceded (!) the even earlier vyse, but I'd have to check. There are a lot of Vyse Lanes and similar to be found. I used to live in York - there's a lot of archaeological evidence that suggests that the vikings there had plenty of vices! |
| Peter - Monday, 11/10/03 15:40:32 EST |
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Taps: I spoke with an old friend today who makes his living selling Tooling and cutting fluids to the industrial market. He noted that IN HIS OPINION, the following are the best taps on the market today. EMUGE is #1 but is hard to obtain except thru industrial Dist. BALEX is #2, and is widely available, including thru MSC and other catalogs. Next was BASS, and Union Butterfield etc.( he noted that he did not sell Balex, and was therefore cutting his own sales. He also reminded me that Master Chemical makes a couple of special cutting fluids. I suggested that maybe he should set up a retail operation for small orders and advertise on Anvilfire. He did say he was going to look into it. |
| ptree - Monday, 11/10/03 16:54:52 EST |
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By the way, while a vise may be a vice, in Germany they are a "WISE" at least by pronuciation! |
| ptree - Monday, 11/10/03 16:56:53 EST |
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viking vic(s)es: My Red Headed sister is one of them- BGRIN Michael Sheldon (habu) McGinty |
| habu - Monday, 11/10/03 20:59:34 EST |
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Mark Twain:: "I have no respect for a man who can only spell a word one way" |
| habu - Monday, 11/10/03 21:52:58 EST |
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Unknown (blacksmith?): "When your only tool is a hammer, everything looks like a nail." Unknown |
| habu - Monday, 11/10/03 22:05:39 EST |
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Tool-hammer-nail: Habu - I wonder if that saying has anything to do with the fact that a large hammer is nicknamed a "chevywrench" in western PA: :) Also, if you haven't run across it Twain has an absolutely scathing commentary on James Fennimore Cooper's writing and the logic it exhibits. Coevolution Quarterly (I think its Whole Earth News now) printed it years ago. |
| - Gavainh - Monday, 11/10/03 22:30:07 EST |
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Mills,: I really can't tell yet. Jock has some tickets he is bringing to me wednesday, on his way to Steve Kaynes on business. He also expects to sell some tickets while he's up there. The Bull Hammer manufacturers want some, and some other folks as well. I would GUESS that they are about 1 in about a 150. Not sure, but I think it's a bit less than that. I've been sorting things out getting ready for the big day. Drawing is this saturday at the show I'm doing in Bethabara. A friend is going to video tape the drawing, and we'll see if we can find a sweet innocent young thing about 24 with flaming red hair to draw the ticket. |
| Paw Paw - Monday, 11/10/03 22:43:58 EST |
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Grant... more China.: Grant, in my experience building and buying plants in China, the Chinese governement does not want to create jobs for their people. The Chinese government is the communists. They have control. Of everything. The Chinese government letting other countries manufacturing into their country is all about them selling their countrymens cheap labor (which they have worked hard to keep cheap and attractive) and lining their own pockets. While they can. Increased communication is what is forcing it. When I worked there, it was very difficult to get an Internet connection. As the business world sees how China works, they will exploit it. And they are. As the Chinese see how the rest of the world works, they will demand it. And they are. We bought three plants in China and built a multiprocess manufacturing campus. The Chinese subsidized nothing. IF you get a Chinese "joint venture partner", that can be different. But it is the good old boy network in China that will help each other make money. Not helping the foreigner. The Chinese have the about the hardest working, willing, low cost labor force in the world. Why would they subsidize people building manufacturing in China when they are knocking the door down to get in? Are you seeing any Chinese subsidizing in what you might be doing? The average Chinese laborer does not know how to do the manual assembly of a B&S engine. They can't even assemble ball valves properly yet. With training, yes, but not consistently. Why would B&S do that? One of my good college buddies was in charge of a good portion of B&S manufacturing the last I saw him. He's not stupid. The Chinese are hard working and willing to learn. The average Chinese is a good person. Much better than the average South of the border. When they DO know, the average American (and South American) worker had damn well better have another job to do because the Chinese will kick butt. I don't like it. I'm embarrassed by it. But mark my words. And again, our business people and our politicians are hastening the process. Thank them next time you talk. If I guess right, if B&S does a state of the art engine in China in the near future, it will be done with automatic machines. Automatic die casting, automatic machining, automatic assembly and automatic test. Very few Chinese hands. When we bought the faucet factory, we could not use Chinese materials for casting or bar machining. Quality was too poor. Had to import materials. Glass for cast iron and porcelain enamelling had to be made in the US and imported. China has the raw materials. But they could not get them out of the ground clean enough. Sure, materials and equipment have a big labor cost component. Your point is good and is well taken. But the machine tools and fasteners will, for the most part, not come from China. Hence my point about little Chinese labor. I question whether the aluminum could come from China. I did say little labor in a B&S engine. I did mean direct labor. And there is not much direct labor in one. There would be less in a Chinese B&S. I'm not meaning to harp or argue. But unless you have built manufacturing there, trying very hard to source is China, it is not as it would seem. Are there standouts in China? yes! Can they? Yes! But I'm talking averages here. Not exceptions. Paw Paw, thanks for the good stories. We need to hear more of those. At least I do. It's easy to go toward thinking human nature sucks. |
| - Tony - Monday, 11/10/03 23:07:01 EST |
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Armistice Day: On the 11th hour of the 11th day of the 11th month, 1918, the guns that had opened fire in August, 1914, fell silent. The guns had silenced a substantial portion of the manhood of Europe and its colonies and a goodly number of soldiers, sailors and citizens of the United States. It was the Great War, the first in which the machines of our ingenuity ate the men. The rest of the 20th century has been variations on the theme. Always remember that it has been the people of our armed forces that have born the burden, suffered and triumphed and failed and tried again. They are the instruments of our will. They are the powerful weapon behind all of the implements and hardware. When we commit ourselves to wage war for what we feel is right, we must not waste them in the wrong cause; we must choose wisely. No matter how you feel about the politics of any military action, whether you agree or disagree, it is the troops that face the danger, suffer the conditions, mourn the losses, and pay the price far beyond all the monies involved. They are our friends, our families, our ancestors and perfect strangers who have made the sacrifices necessary to keep us safe. We owe them all our gratitude, and need to show it the other 364 days. Perhaps in this century the great guns will finally fall silent for good; but until that happens, these folks are the ones that will face them. They all have my respect, and my thanks. |
| Bruce Blackistone (Atli) - Tuesday, 11/11/03 00:03:51 EST |
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11/11/18: Hear,hear, brother Atli. |
| 3dogs - Tuesday, 11/11/03 01:40:14 EST |
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veterans day: It took God, guts, and guns to found this country.We will need more of each to keep it.Thanks to the men and women in harms way now and in the past. |
| - ritch - Tuesday, 11/11/03 09:19:25 EST |
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My dads memoris:: A letter that my dad wrote to the daughter of one of his crew members: A few years ago, to answer some questions from Matty Nathan’s daughter, I sent the following letter; June 8, 1998 Dear Debby; I was glad to hear that you were interested in your dad's World War ll activities. I didn’t fly all of the same missions that he did, because he was sent for special training after he was wounded on January 29,1944. He flew several missions as a radar pathfinder, before returning to the 379th Bomb Group and our crew. In case you don’t know it, he was very heroic the day he was wounded. I have some documentation and newspaper clippings from the war that I will try to copy and send to you as soon as I find the time. I will try to give you my account of what happened on that eventful day. It may differ from Matty’s version. I can be forgiven, because in the heat of battle and being located in the opposite end of the plane, what I remember may not even resemble your dad’s version. On January 29 we were approaching the target at Frankfort am Main and starting our bomb run. We came under fighter attack while experiencing severe anti-aircraft fire at the same time. The fighters made a head-on attack and one seemed like it was trying to force us out of the formation. Matty had the dual duty of trying to ward off the fighters and man the bombsight. I remember seeing a fighter pass us to the rear just missing our right wing tip. A few seconds later I heard Matty call over the inter-phone that the navigator was down. The next thing I heard was the pilot calling for the top turret gunner to bring him an emergency oxygen bottle because the oxygen system in the nose was blown out. The gunner replied that he would get the bottle as soon as a fighter passed. The pilot said “Forget the fighter, I'm passing out.” In the meantime Matty went to the navigator's assistance and tried to do what he could to care for a man with a very bad stomach wound. He also had to share his oxygen. We were flying at 27 thousand feet and the outside temperature must have been about -40 degrees Fahrenheit. The next thing I remember was that the aircraft was spiraling down and I couldn't get an answer on the inter-phone. Matty somehow had dropped the bombs to lighten the plane. I decided that everyone in the front was dead and it was time to abandon the aircraft. When I reached the escape hatch, I found that my detachable parachute pack had broken loose from its stowage and been thrown forward during the violent maneuvers. I could not reach it because of the centrifugal force of our gyrations. Being in the tail exaggerated the gravity forces on my body. Soon after that I felt the aircraft straighten out in its dive and the strain of the pullout. The top turret gunner said that it took the combined effort of the three men in the cockpit to get the plane out of the dive. It felt like the wings were coming off. If Matty had not jettisoned the bombs, we would not be here today. (You either). The co-pilot went to the nose to help with the navigator and the navigator figured a compass course for home and then died in Matty’s arms. He had lost all of his blood and turned blue. We were then attacked by three enemy aircraft from the rear and when I called them out to the pilot he ducked into the clouds just as some twenty millimeter shells burst off the left side of the B-17. We were unharmed and stayed in the clouds until we neared the coast of France and then had to run through some light anti-aircraft fire to add to our misery and exhaustion. The compass heading that the mortally wounded navigator had set for us brought us to a Norwegian/ RAF base in southern England and the pilot landed without incident. The RAF crews were already alerted to our troubles and had ambulances and fire trucks standing by. They did a wonderful job of seeing that we were provided with the best care posible. We removed the body of the navigator and then discovered that Matty had been painfully wounded and had ignored his own wounds while attending his good friend, the navigator. I have never put this in writing before and am now in tears thinking how close we all were to each other during those terrible times. Matty was always keeping our morale up with his corny jokes and he was the go-between when we wanted special favors from the officers. We missed him when he was recovering in the hospital and was absent from our crew. We were glad when we were reunited again. For years I put the war out of my mind and did my best to forget it. Only in the last ten years, have I been able to recall some of the experiences and I sometime don't know if I can completely trust my memory. It wasn't all bad though, we had some good times. In war, strangers become like brothers and the comradeship is something that has been unique to warriors since time began. We shared the dangers and hardships that are impossible to describe to someone who has not been there. It’s not something that makes good dinner or bedtime conversations, so we spared our loved ones the grim details. I know that your dad carries some deep emotional scars and the love of his family helps to ease the pain, but like the rest of us, he is a survivor and is living a happy life thanks to your mother. Debby, I hope I have opened a small window for you and will give you a better understanding of what your father is made of. I am very proud that he is part of my life and I know you are proud of him too or you wouldn't be asking these questions. I send my love to all of you,…Mac |
| habu - Tuesday, 11/11/03 11:04:48 EST |
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Habu: > In war, strangers become like brothers and the comradeship is something that has been unique to warriors since time began. That is so very true. Something that is a bit strange to me. I can walk into a room full of strangers, and within minutes tell you which of the men and wome are veterans. Something in the way they stand, walk, talk. I don't know what all of the non-verbal clues are, but I don't often miss. Sometimes I can even tell which of them are combat vets. Golden Corral always has free meals for veterans on Veteran's Day. A couple of years ago, Sheri and I walked into the local Golden Corral. As we went in the door, we met a guy in a wheel chair and his wife. I looked at his wife in total dis-belief. I looked at her and said, "Bunny?" Her eyes got as big as saucers and she said, "Boom-Boom?". We fell into each others arms as her husband and my wife looked on in amazement. Bunny and I were both crying, and Sheri looked at Don (I found out his name after Bunny and I broke loose from each other.) I told Sheri that Bunny had been my nurse the second time I was wounded. Sheri hugged her and said, "Thank you for sending my man home!" And she whispered in Bunny's ear, "and I don't care what kind of medicine you gave him!" We ate dinner together that night. We've become friends, Sheri has figured out that Bunny and I had a relationship that was a bit closer than patient and nurse, and so has Don. Has never mattered to any of the four of us. Nor is it likely to ever happen again. |
| Paw Paw - Tuesday, 11/11/03 11:28:29 EST |
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Veterans' Day: To all the vets who have served our country, whether in combat or not, I simply say "Thank you, one and all." I was not provided the opportunity to serve in the Armed Forces due to a stupid medical situation, so I chose to do what little I could by being a cop here at home while most of my friends were humping it through picturesque places in Southeast Asia or South America. Sadly, many of the best never made it home and are remembered only by a piece of metal or a ribbon in a drawer somewhere, another name on the Wall. And in my heart and the hearts of those who have served. I am pleased that my wife has her father's medals framed and displayed on the wall of our home rather than in a drawer. It should be thus in every home where a loved one has served and passed. They should be remembered every day, not but once a year. As Paw Paw said he was honored to serve his country, I was honored to be able to serve and protect the families of those who went. And I am honored to remember them on this day and many, many others. Thank you, I am in your debt. Richard S. Waugh, American citizen |
| vicopper - Tuesday, 11/11/03 13:41:51 EST |
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Veterans Day: May God bless veterans and their families. They all gave so much. |
| R Guess - Tuesday, 11/11/03 14:33:57 EST |
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All,: I've got a couple of brothers in this group. To you I wish the best of days today. May the nightmares lesson as the years go by and may you always know "the peace that passes all understanding." |
| Paw Paw - Tuesday, 11/11/03 14:40:13 EST |
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Rich,: To me, Service is a way of life. It always has been. I guess it was in my Pablum. That's why I went into law enforcement when I got out of the Army. So I could "Protect and Serve" for a little bit longer. I've never regretted either of those two decisions. |
| Paw Paw - Tuesday, 11/11/03 15:27:15 EST |
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To all who serve and protect, whether it is in the armed forces, or those who serve here in different uniforms but of like purpose. today is to honor those who have served, fought, or sacrificed for this country. It is also a time to try to strive for peace so that our children may never know of the things that there forebears had to endure to provide them this paridise on earth. May all who have given the ultimate, rest in honor, may those that were forced to yeild thier youth too soon enjoy their age in freedom. May all those who serve and have served know that this citizen and soldier has tought his children to always respect those who must make sacrifice, so that they have the right to question thier government, thier leaders thier laws. This right to question, to VOTE the scoundrels out, is what makes the USA strong. Jeff Reinhardt Citizen, and once a soldier/airman |
| ptree - Tuesday, 11/11/03 21:34:12 EST |
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thank you: For those of you who have served our country, despite the screw ups of the politicians, YOU are the MAN! or the WOMAN. Thanks for serving us without regard of the cost. Many of you I know gave more than you were paid for. Blessings on you this day, and know of my prayers of thanksgiving for the gift you offered. David Galloway aka PapaDoc |
| PapaDoc - Tuesday, 11/11/03 22:00:00 EST |
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anvils and tools to start a blacksmithing hobby: I am looking for an anvil, a forge, a vise, and tongs that are being sold. I am a beginner and I would like to start a hobby in blacksmithing. Please send offers via the e-mail address below. Thank you, Gavin |
| - Gavin - Tuesday, 11/11/03 22:04:55 EST |
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Veterans, THANK YOU for keeping our country free. |
| Ellen - Wednesday, 11/12/03 00:13:30 EST |
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Gavin: Gavin can you pay hundreds if not thousands of dollars for shipping such tools? If not you should tell us *WHERE YOU ARE AT* to save all the time of folks that are trying to *help* you. We have folks here from europe, South America, Africa, India, Australia, North America, etc. If you are near central Ohio, USA let me know and I can make some suggestions. Thomas |
| Thomas P - Wednesday, 11/12/03 10:22:31 EST |
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starting: i just started all i have is 2 anvils medim and small ,2hammers a short sledg and a 3lb claw hammer,a self made byclepump and gass fiting bellows/ amd a clay fire pit forge. i an just looking for advice on wher to get good but inexpencev tools and workable mettle. ps. sorry for my horrible typing, numb fingers |
| - Theo - Wednesday, 11/12/03 13:02:07 EST |
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Getting Started: Gavin,Theo and others, The FIRST thing to do is to click on the "Navigte Anvilfire" drop-down at the upper right hand corner of the screen. Go to the 21st Century Page, where you will gind articles on getting started, building forges, acquiring tools, all sorts of valuable things. After you have read and studied everything thatis there, go to the Bookshelf Review Page and check out the books that are recommended for beginners. Your public library may have some of them, if not they can get them on Inter-Library Loan. Study those books. When one of the books seems particularly meaningful to you, order your own copy of it so you can always have it at hand down through the years. Since I don't know what area you are in, I can only recommend that you go to www.abana.com and look for a chapter of ABANA, the Artists Blacksmiths Association of North America, and locate a chapter near you. Once you have done that, contact them and arrange to attend their meetings. You'll find all the help you can imagine at any ABANA chapter meeting. Steel is where you find it, but you rarely know exactly what alloy yo |