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[ THE - GURUS | ABOUT THIS PAGE | Getting Started in Blacksmithing ]
Rhino Anvils: PLEASE NOTE, I've said this before. There are NO photos of most of the products on that site, just CAD images. This usually means that the product has never been produced or delivered. The same images have been there for around a year.

Family Colonial Anvil: Scott, The prices on these vary greatly depending on the style and condition. Top prices were running over $800 in the US but many have sold for less. If the anvil will only bring half that you are better off using it. You may send photos to me if you would like it ID'd. In exchange I'd like permission to use photos sent.

Pipe Anvil: No. See our Anvil Making Articles

Mousehole Anvils were the most popular and most common anvil in the U.S. for a very long time. Generally they are very well manufactured and IF they had any problems have broken or showed their failure points by now. While Peter Wright anvils were more popular by name I believe Mousehole sold many more anvils. They were one of the oldest manufacturers and were in business longer than any other. Almost any broken down piece of Mousehole anvil would be better than a lift fork.
   - guru - Tuesday, 06/16/09 10:13:21 EDT
Also depends on how you are using the fork lift fork, flat or vertically?

Thomas
   Thomas P - Tuesday, 06/16/09 10:20:42 EDT
now I see why you said no, I was worried about those issues brought up in the part of the article that talked about concrete, so that will not be the path I will fallow, thankyou.
   matt - Tuesday, 06/16/09 10:26:06 EDT
Scott, I took your advice and stuck it into some scrolling posts and bent it cold.
It's not perfect, but you'd have to look awfully close to see the imperfection of the repair. Best of all, it didn't mar the chrome finish. Thanks for the tip.
   coondogger - Tuesday, 06/16/09 10:28:06 EDT
Coondogger, that was Alan-L. that answered your question.
   - guru - Tuesday, 06/16/09 11:19:56 EDT
My forklift tine is huge how do you reccomend i get it heated to a temperature high enough to harden? We have a oxy-acetylene torch but we dont hove the big bottles, we have machine and welding shops, that how i should do it?
   Jacob Lockhart - Tuesday, 06/16/09 11:32:23 EDT
define huge? like anvil huge or battleship huge? i am not being facicous i just want to know. i would set up a lift and light a big fire with wood and put the tine in that. stress relive, and then reheat to red and harden in water or oil. but i would use water as it will not light on fire. but that is just how i would do it and not how some people would do it who have better skills.
   bigfoot - Tuesday, 06/16/09 11:43:27 EDT
Well its 3x6" on the face and im sure it weighs well over 200lbs maybe closer to 300, Its a short stocky little sucker.
   Jacob Lockhart - Tuesday, 06/16/09 12:50:26 EDT
so maybe set a chain hoist up so you can heat the face and pull it out to quench it in you desired medium. i would maybe normalize it before hardening so it has less internal stress. then quench at a dull red. good luck.
   bigfoot - Tuesday, 06/16/09 13:00:47 EDT
A coupla' guys described what they did to harden an old anvil face. They dug a hole in the ground for a wood fire but had a 3" stove pipe off to one side and going to the center/bottom of the hole for a tuyere. The stove pipe came above ground about 15' from the fire and attached to a hand blower. They probably used over a face-cord of wood for the fire. They chained the waist of the anvil and used a steel porter bar through the chain for lifting. The anvil was placed in the fire upside down. When the face was cherry red, they lowered the anvil into a large stock tank. Proctective clothing and face masks were a must.
   - Frank Turley - Tuesday, 06/16/09 14:04:32 EDT
Hi, I am interested in castng my own anvil from cast iron & or steel. This project is a long way off, but I am designing a tilt furnace for large iron/steel loads (80 lbs max) and I want to make sure that I make it with all the nessasary features. I know that this is somewhat impractical, but I think it will be fun and it might even be cheaper than buying a lightly used one.

Anyway, so far I have been planning on making a 250 lb London style anvil. I was planning on first making a solid horn and table of tool steel, with a tang that would extend all the way to the hardie hole through the body of the anvil. Then I would set up an open top mold for the face and body so that the tang would be (hopefully) weleded into the tool steel face. After the face and the tang were cast I could cast the rest of the body from cast iron, or tool steel if I could find enough. Then I would just have to make a mold for the base so that it would (hopefully) weld to the rest of the anvil when I poured it. The big question is, if I do this will any of the welds be made or will I have to find a differnt way to weld the peices togethor? Can you see any other flaws in my plans? Finaly, could old leaf springs from the scrap yard be used in stead of tool steal with a decent result? I dont know what alloy these are but I might need to find really old ones that dont require air quenching.
Anyway, thanks for helping out a confused newbie,
-Julian
   - Julian - Tuesday, 06/16/09 17:49:32 EDT
Jacob Lockhart, if I were to want to heat treat the end of that forklift tine, I would build a stack of fire bricks and lay the tine with the end sticking a few inches through. Then using a weed burner I would heat just the end, and then when hot quench with water. I would spray from a hose on the end that needs to be hard. Once cool,quickly sand a spot and let the heat run back in to a straw. The forklift technicians I have asked have all reported the fork materal to be 4140. Truth is, I would use as is, hot metal is not that hard on an un-heat treated surface, its the missed hammer blows that do the damage.
   ptree - Tuesday, 06/16/09 18:06:45 EDT
Rhino Anvils. I haven't mentioned this on AF because Jock relies on paid advertising. What Jock says about the images of Rhino anvils and other products is completely correct. The products, however, do exist. I have a set of his stake tools which get used a lot by my students. I also have a swage block which looks exactly like the CAD on the site. I use it a lot and it is very good. Those tools I have paid for and am very happy with them.

I also have one of each size anvil which have been sent to me to test. So far they have proved to be very good. The wider face takes a bit of getting used to. I was worried that it might mean that there would be a problem with not having enough steel under the edge for seriously heavy forging but this hasn't yet been a problem with the 234# middle sized unit. I ahven't done anything heavy on the other two yet. The tapered heel I also find useful. Sort of half way between a single and a double bick!

One thing with these tools is that at least they are sold as being made in China. Some other manufacturers do have tools, including anvils, made here and try to suggest by their publicity that they are made in the west.
   philip in china - Tuesday, 06/16/09 18:12:26 EDT
I suspect China will be like Japan shortly after WW-II. At first known for inferior products, but within about a decade became known for the superior quality.

Look for more and more high quality Chinese anvils becoming available in the U.S.

As Philip noted, at least they admit they are Chinese and give you the specifications. For $50 extra you can even have your own logo put on one.
   Ken Scharabok - Tuesday, 06/16/09 18:36:03 EDT
I thought the logo might be useful in cases where you are worried about theft. Makes reclaiming it much easier!
   philip in china - Tuesday, 06/16/09 18:54:50 EDT
Julian; have you read the section of Fisher Anvils in "Anvils in America" IIRC they mention some of the patents that fisher had for that process. I'm afraid it's quite a bit more involved than just casting it onto the face to get a good bond.

As for it being cheaper I would expect your fuel cost to be more than I can find an anvil for; not to mention the cost of the melting apparatus, the cost of the refractories to make the mold from, shoot the cost of the proper safety equipment is going to be more than buying a decent anvil.

Do it cause you *want* to do it expecting to spend more than you need to!

I know you are of course expecting to have to do many tries before getting this down right, right?

Remember too that when you melt steel and cast it you don't get what you started with unless you are dealing with a large number of factors. (including large weak grain structure---the cast steel ingots used to be heavily forged to get good properties when they used to do it that way in Sheffield!)

I would not try to cast the face but rather make it from a good steel and full penetration weld the tang(s) on. Try to use a steel where you can refine the grain through normalization.

Remember that you will need a trained and practiced crew to do this safely. If you are near Central NM I'll volunteer to be a grunt.

(note that very few steels require air quenching and in anvil sized items even air quenching steels may need a bit of help...)

Thomas
   Thomas P - Tuesday, 06/16/09 19:04:11 EDT
BTW "making your own anvil because it is cheaper"? I don't think so!
   philip in china - Tuesday, 06/16/09 19:25:53 EDT
Casting in Stages: Julian, this works in substances that bind together by cold methods (like concrete) but not melted materials like metal.

To make good castings in most metals requires a significantly higher percentage of metal than the shape in the mold. Risers help pressurize the metal and provide metal supply as the part cools and shrinks. Some castings take as much as 100% extra for the risers and sprues.

If you want to experiment with casting start small and work on quality and consistent results. Casting, especially heavy masses is an art. I've had commercial foundries that couldn't cast a 30 pound swage block because they didn't know how to make a heavy casting (did not weight mold, use large enough risers, too fine of sand. . .).

If you want to see a little about what it takes to make a weld using poured metal see our news article on Thermite Welding and pay particular attention to the preheat requirement.

IF you are serious about casting work you need to find ALL the works by C.W. Ammen on casting and pattern work. There are others but most take their info from Ammen or learned from his works

If you want to make your own anvil you can do it much more cheaply and effectively if by using fabrication methods from heavy sections and plate by cutting, welding and grinding. We have a great selection of ideas and methods in our Anvil Making Articles
   - guru - Tuesday, 06/16/09 20:36:05 EDT
Even concrete isn't that great a material to join cold, in fact in the building trades a foundation made with more than one pour is said to have a "cold joint" and it will usually send the structural engineer screaming (usually screaming "NO, NO, NO right into the job super's office to put a stop to things).
   Judson Yaggy - Tuesday, 06/16/09 20:49:21 EDT
Hey, i had asked about if anyone had the E-copy of the cosira blacksmith craft that they had up a couple years ago, cause that site has dissapears,

now imwondering if anyone has any of the other ones, specifically the one about wrought iron fencing, and it had a bunch of like, traditional english style sign hangers, and some designs and stuff,
did anyone here ever copy the whole set from cosira,
i know i had it on my old computer, but i cant get that to even start,

thanks in advance everyone
   Cameron - Tuesday, 06/16/09 20:58:49 EDT
CAD Images of Sales Items: If the seller has no images of the product then it is unlikely they have taken delivery on the product. If they have taken delivery of the product and haven't photographed the product then you have to ask why. Maybe the product is great and as-advertised but not having photos after a year in this day and age is very suspicious.

The Case of the Curious Hammer

About 5 years ago I was directed to a power hammer website. The hammer looked a LOT like a Big BLU but had an even deeper throat. The guys that owned the site had purchased a Big BLU. . . Then they built a frame and put the Big BLU parts on it (ram, guides, cylinder, valves, dies), painted it green and gave it a new name. Was the hammer real? Yes. Did the "manufacturer" make it? NO. There was no product. They were not a manufacturer, they didn't even make a copy, they used parts they probably didn't have the capacity to make and parts they couldn't source. They even stole much of the Big BLU website and descriptive wording.

The above was a flimflam but the people doing it probably thought it was just "business". Someone was trying to make enough advance sales of a product they didn't have in order to finance their startup. Worse, they leveraged their "prototype" off another manufacturer. Somewhere along the line someone must have had a moral epiphany or had someone convinced them that they would get clobbered on the blacksmithing forums because the project was dropped.

This kind of thing used to be common among manufacturers. Those with no imagination or skill would steal from others. They would copy patterns, infringe on patents and know that it could take years before they were caught. Today if you market a stolen design, use someone else's pattern without permission you will get caught in days or weeks, not years, especially in a small community like ours.
   - guru - Tuesday, 06/16/09 22:11:13 EDT
Archives: I've been WAY behind on archives (14 months). They are all posted now.
   - guru - Tuesday, 06/16/09 22:12:57 EDT
Fork Anvil:

Here's what I did with a fork to make 2 anvils:
http://marco-borromei.com/fork.html

The large piece is used unhardened. The small piece was flame hardened almost exactly as Ptree describes above. They both work very well, but the fuel cost and mess involved in hardening the face of the smaller one is not something I'd repeat.
   Mike/Marco - Tuesday, 06/16/09 22:15:41 EDT
Cameron, I think you can get to the uk publications via Herfordshire College: http://www.hct.ac.uk/Downloads/craftpublications.html
   - Frank Turley - Tuesday, 06/16/09 22:34:18 EDT
FYI, chromium as a solid metal is not particularly hazardous. If you mill it in a ball mill, you can produce particles that are small enough to be inhalable and they have the potential for causing cancer - similar to manganese. Do not mill either of these materials in open air - they'll self ignite and potentially explode depending on dust load and amount of oxygen present. At the least, you'll have a very hot metal fire. Even with inerted ball mills, respirators were required around the one milling operation I worked at, and I don't mean the silly paper ones.

Where chromium becomes dangerous is in solution where it shows up as Cr+6 aka Chrome 6 - very nasty stuff when in solution. But even so, limited amounts are permitted in discharge water from industrial plants - levels are typically in ppm or less - ptree can probably tell you more, I've just worked with the production end while he's concerned with safety and environment.
   - Gavainh - Wednesday, 06/17/09 00:27:58 EDT
Chrome6 better known in the safety trade as hexavalent chrome, is indeed a safety issue. It causes pretty severe skin rash if it comes in contact with bare skin. It causes cancer in long exposure.
Hexavelant chrome is present in weld smoke from chrome bearing steels. This would be a big issue in stainless steel where chrome runs in the 13 to 20% range.
Most plain steels these days have at least a trace of chrome from the scrap using in the melt.
Chrome in alloy is not usually considered a threat, only when disolved out say by acid attack, or when welded. The high energy state in arc welding converts a % to hexavalent chrome.
   Ptree - Wednesday, 06/17/09 05:37:19 EDT
How dangerous is manganese? i have heard it causes parkinsons synfdrome and other nasty stuff. is this something i should worry about in my forge? sorry to spam the forum. but this is a good information for people like me who do not know all of the dangers.
   bigfoot - Wednesday, 06/17/09 10:09:45 EDT
Cameron, another source of traditional sign hangers but German is a book I picked up in Germany whose title translates as "Pretty, old, Inn/Tavern Signs". Lovely work in it though they tend to gold leaf a lot of stuff....many are compleatly blacksmith made without wooden signboards. I'll try to bring it in before the weekend and post the details.

Thomas
   Thomas P - Wednesday, 06/17/09 10:52:43 EDT
Manganese is generally not a problem in the forge but welding, especially with high strength welding rods and welding high hardenability alloys.

Safe practice in the shop requires good (forced) ventilation any time metallic materials are made powdered and air born OR as fumes from burning. Exhaust fans are critical and the smaller the shop area the more important.

Long term exposure to arc welding fumes is a particular problem. Point ventilation (a suction hose and fan) is recommended as well as general ventilation. Working outdoors helps a lot but welding fumes will circulate up into to your welding helmet more than 50% of the time unless there is a breeze and you are in the right position.

The most important thing is to think about what you are doing and avoid hazards when you can.
   - guru - Wednesday, 06/17/09 10:58:39 EDT
whew that is good to know for me. 1 less thing (i hope) to knock off the list of things that can make me miserable. and what if i only have an outdoor forge and i do not weld but only fire weld? will manganese and cromium still not be an issue?
   bigfoot - Wednesday, 06/17/09 11:21:56 EDT
Wedding Sword Project continued: I'm back with another question. For better or for worse I have decided on an annealed piece of 440 stainless for this project, ordered from a reputable company and chosen for it's ability to be heat treated when finished. I still hope to find a forge that can harden it for me when I am done but if not, I guess I will wind up with a shiny "soft" hanger.

The problem is that when I got the 3/16 by 3ft piece of steel, it has a nice gradual curve from one end to the other, (about a quarter inch high in the middle when laid flat). I assume that this can be easily remedied by bending it back to straight but I want to make sure with someone who knows as I don't know the properties of this metal or whether or not it will stay straight if I try warping it back. Or, should I contact the company and see if I can get a straight piece sent to replace it, I imagine the other pieces they would have would be in the same condition as this one.

Any ideas on the best way to straighten this and keep it straight would be greatly appreciated. Pretty sure this is a fairly novice question so I thank everyone for their patience, I just want to make sure I do this right the first time around. Thank you.
James
   James - Wednesday, 06/17/09 12:44:22 EDT
Stainless Blades:Standard treatment is to whack it against a suitable tree. . I would clamp in a vise an lean on it. However, if the bar was supposed to be straight when you got it I would ask questions. Is is coil steel poorly straightened? Did it get bent in transit? Annealed steel is soft and should be able to be bent and formed. However, stainless work hardens easily and that could be an issue from to much bending.

Note that with heat treatable stainless you are not going to be able to heat treat it yourself. This is the realm of high tech. Plus being a word you are going to need to find a high tech specialist.

440S SS:

Hardening is done in a vacuum or inert gas furnace. There is either one or two preheats depending on the shape (1000F and/or 1450F) until equally heated then harden by heating to 1850-1950F and holding for a time (30 min.) partially depending on the type of anneal (process, isothermal, or full anneal). Double soak time if isothermal or full anneal.

The part is then air or oil quenched (oil preferred). Now. . . the tricky part is that you now have a long spaghetti limp piece of steel that you must get out of the special hardening furnace and into the quench without distorting it. If its hardened in a significant curve or waves it may break when you try to straighten it. This is where a sword specialist comes in. They often end quench supporting the blade by a hole in the tang.

After hardening then temper similar to other steels (a minimum of 325F). But swords should be selectively heat treated with the area of the tang all but annealed.

Cryogenic (-100F) treatment is also recommend for this steel. It is usually done after the first temper and before a second temper but the book was not clear.

Final grinding is done after heat treatment.
   - guru - Wednesday, 06/17/09 16:22:40 EDT
440SS, We made some valve stems from this material, which were pretty much an experimental design for us, that moved to trial production. These had a precise ball on the end with a flow hole thru. The ball was excentric to the stem to give a cam action as the ball was rotated into the seat. Patent granted, so no secrets revealed here. The ball had to have a spericity and finish similar to a ball bearing. We even purchased a special machine to sperically grind and superfinish the ball. The heat treat was a special problem. We had the controlled atmosphere furnace, and the proper controls, even the correct quench. We had the cryo treat onsite. We had balls to crack and fall off in tool boxes overnight. We had balls crack and come off in the superfinish, we had balls come off...
$$)SS is a good surgical steel that makes a nice blade if you have the heat treat down. I would not reccomend for a first time blade.
   ptree - Wednesday, 06/17/09 19:02:39 EDT
I live on .77 acres, do you think a welding shop could heat the forklift fork wit several torches? Ide like to do it myself but alot of these methods wont fly in my area.
   - Jacob Lockhart - Wednesday, 06/17/09 19:28:20 EDT
James,

The annealed 440C might have been sheared cold leaving the curve. Try straightening it cold, as Guru talks about. A bending fork and bending wrench could be used.

If it's a "hanger" as you mentioned, I assume you mean a "wall hanger." If so, you should probably make the sword cold by grinding, sanding, polishing, and forget the heat treatment.
   - Frank Turley - Wednesday, 06/17/09 19:33:58 EDT
Besides a curve, shearing will make a REALLY hard work hardened edge. These edges should be ground off prior to straightening.
   - guru - Wednesday, 06/17/09 23:40:16 EDT
Jacob: Go to one of the local welding shops and ask how much they would charge you to heat up the forklift fork/tine. Be prepared for sticker shock.

For the time, effort and money you are going to have invested in your project likely you could purchase a nice suitable anvil.
   Ken Scharabok - Thursday, 06/18/09 06:45:48 EDT
When I bought the drop of 14 gauge 304 sheet, I asked them if they could shear it into sword blanks on a brake press. They refused, saying that they can't do it with stainless. Now I know why. I took it to a waterjet cutting shop and had them chop up two sheets resulting in 64 sword blanks, 24" long, 3/4" to 1/2" taper. They are all as straight as the sheet they were cut from. The cuts cost $280, but I will make that money back with my first sale. James, I'll be honest, there is NO good reason to go through all that work for a decoration sword. If it will truly sit on your wall and look fantastic, it doesn't matter if it is made of the softest steel around. Personally I would go with the 300 series. When polished, a 300 series finish is unmatched.

Thomas, I am making a sign bracket for our newest shop, it's in a historical district so the regulations about signage are pretty strict. The sign will be wood, 4' wide by 3' tall. I'd love to see these German sign brackets.
   - Nippulini - Thursday, 06/18/09 09:54:36 EDT
The book is Schone (with umlaut over the o) Alte Wirthaus Schilder by Walter Leonhard ISBN 3675414948.

When I was in Germany I tried to collect as many used books as I could, especially guide books that predated the wars when possible to get examples of "originals".

Jacob useing chunk charcoal I could do stuff like that on a city lot about 75' wide and 100' deep much smaller than .77 acre!

Thomas
   Thomas P - Thursday, 06/18/09 10:26:06 EDT
Thanks frank and thomas, ive been looking for those e versions ever since the cosira website went missing :)
thanks alot
   Cameron - Thursday, 06/18/09 10:40:38 EDT
Nip, just to be picky,
Its a "Press Brake", not a "brake press".

And since a Press Brake bends, metal, thats probably why they couldnt use it to cut your stainless- you use a Shear for that.

The main reason they probably didnt want to cut your stainless, though, is because it dulls blades much quicker than mild steel, and its a big pain to remove the blades for sharpening.

Most all stainless sheet comes from the mill not particularly flat. Usually a shop that does a lot of this will roll it back and forth a few times to get it flat, if flat is needed. For sheet, or plate, big powered rolls- thats what I use. For flat bar, angle rolls work fine. You start by rolling it just barely past flat in the opposite direction, then dial it back towards flat, flipping the orientation every pass.
In a pinch, I often straighten flat bar on the hossfeld bender, which, properly set up, will do this quite easily in up to 1/2" thick flat bar, up to 4" wide. Takes a bit of practice, though.
Stainless steel is expensive to work with, no matter how you do it. Shops that do it regularly and well HAVE to invest tens, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars on heavy duty, high quality machines. There arent shortcuts for a lot of this stuff, not without serious compromises.

I, too, would recommend 304 stainless for a sword like this. Heat treating and hardening are just not needed. Assuming you are only going to cut a few heads off a week, or chop the occasional brush with it, it just doesnt need to be that hard or sharp.
I have seen the guys who cut 50 KG slabs of raw tuna in the Tokyo fish market into sushi- now they can justify having a 3' long, razor sharp, sword like knife- and they gladly pay several thousand dollars for the privilege.
But for a wedding sword, you are just setting yourself unreasonable goals.
   - Ries - Thursday, 06/18/09 11:58:57 EDT
Space needed to do work:

In his book James Nasmyth describes doing foundry work (brass and bronze) as a child in his bedroom using the fireplace to create a draft through a small furnace. His bedroom was probably 12x12 to a maximum of 15x15 feet.

My indoor shop in the Old Mill was 15x15. In it I had two wall mounted work benches, one with a vise and key cutter, one with tool chest, bench grinder and motor/buffer. In the middle of the shop sat a hydraulic press and 4x6 saw. Against one wall there was a post drill, large foot treadle grinder, a 20" drill press and a set of shelves. In the back set my small 6" lathe and against the other wall a heavy storage cabinet and 13" x 60" lathe. About 4 tons of tools and machinery and plenty of work space for small jobs. Had 3 people working in that space at one time. . .

Our late friend Paw-Paw had a shop in a 12x16 storage building. It went through many changes but at one time it had a wood stove for heat and work benches on two walls. There was a small drill press and a table belt/disk sander plus a ton of small tools. When I knew him he had expanded outside of the building but for many years most work was done inside the building.

Lots of folks store all their equipment in the corner or a closet sized space of a garage and drag it out when they need it.

Where space becomes a concern is when you need to get a truck in the door and have space around it to unload it OR when you are handling 20 foot lengths of steel OR building a large gate or railing and need to mock it up.

Most of us never have enough space. Something is always stored outside, often machinery, usually stock. Jobs are often done outdoors. We try to keep it indoors but its not always possible.
   - guru - Thursday, 06/18/09 13:23:41 EDT
One advantage of outside work is the great ventilation. The "spreading chestnut tree" shaded not only the smithy but the smith. Much work, such as setting iron tires on wooden wheels was done, by necessity, in the smithy yard. When I had my neighbor clear the area for the new forge, I carefully marked all of the trees I wanted him to leave, so I could get a balance of good light and good shade. I've even got a new tree coming up on the south side for additional shade in a few years.
   Bruce Blackistone (Atli) - Thursday, 06/18/09 17:41:45 EDT
My first indoor blacksmith shop was 9' by 9.5' and I had a forge, some stock and a workbenck in there and often had two of my kids in learning.
   ptree - Thursday, 06/18/09 18:11:42 EDT
A good source book for fancy scrollwork including sign brackets has been published by Larson Publishing Company (Norm Larson) of Lompoc, California, titled "Wrought Iron Artistry." This is a work by Otto Schmirler* of Vienna, and consists of sketches, scale drawings, and photographs, 1983. ISBN 3 8030 5044 8. Each page of explanation is in English, German, and French. I haven't been in touch with Norm lately, but his address used to be P.O. Box 286, zip 93438. You may find an e-contact on the net, but Norm lives in the country, and told me his service is molasses-slow, so he hardly uses it. I'm in hopes the book is still available.

*Otto Schmirler is the same man who authored the wonderful how-to book, "Werk und Werkzeug des Kunstschmieds" (Work and Tools of the Art Smith).

If the P.O. Box doesn't work, try 5426 Hwy 246, Lompoc, CA 93436.
   - Frank Turley - Thursday, 06/18/09 20:02:42 EDT
Folks are always asking about shop layout without mentioning a budget or square feet they can afford. Everything is a matter of scale and budget. In a small shop all you care about is the location of the forge, anvil and vise (the work triangle) and if you have one a power hammer making the work space a square. If you have a big shop with more than one forge station then each station MAY be the same OR they may share major equipment like a power hammer or weld platten.

In a modest shop where you have a lot of equipment a lifting means is important to me. I have too many machines that need to be lifted with a hoist or lift truck. Moved, unloaded, rearranged, exchanged. . . In my old shop I had an overhead crane good for 4,000-5,000 pounds. In my new shop the building cannot support 1/10th that so now I have a fork lift (yet another expensive piece of equipment). In both cases truck access is needed and possibly a loading dock. . .

What is "necessary" varies greatly and often depends on your interests and how long and how seriously you have been collecting tools. My shop is much larger than many but also much smaller. About 5 years ago I had a newby that was jealous of my having more than one anvil and a significant number of other tools give me grief about my being "greedy" by having so many tools. Now he has multiples of many tools including power hammers. One's viewpoint can change rapidly. It is a fact of life.
   - guru - Thursday, 06/18/09 23:27:26 EDT
Everybody's input on my Wedding Sword is greatly appreciated and received with very open ears, however, I have already purchased the 440SS and I'm moving forward with it. I am learning the various complications as I go along, mostly from you guys, but not only do I want a nice looking "wall hanger", which is essentially what it'll be, but I also figure that if I'm going to make a sword, then it might as well be a functional one as well. I was able to straighten the steel the good ole fashion way, one end on the floor and my foot in the middle, but I will see if any machine shops in my area have the tools to get it perfect. After that it will be time to cut out the shape. A friend of mine has tools for cutting steel, he makes knives, and I hope that what he has will work on the 440. We don't have much to remove, just around the tang and the tapers down to the tip. I will then grind and file the shape til it's perfect and then start on the edges. I know these will take awhile but the idea here is the amount of work I have to put into it, not how fast and easily I can get it done. To me, the harder it is, the more it will be worth to me in the end. I still want to have it hardened because of how easy it was for me to bend by hand. I wanted to have a hand in this as well but after Gurus input on the hardening process, I imagine I will need to send it out to be done elsewere. But I think that will still leave it to be tempered, which hopefully would solve the cracking issues mentioned above. I'd like to at least be able to do this part under the guidance of someone that knows how to do it, and I'll even travel if I have to.

Again, I thank all of you for your input and I will keep you posted on how it goes...most likely via more questions that I post as I encounter more problems.
   James - Friday, 06/19/09 04:05:02 EDT
James,

To clear up one misconception you seem to be laboring under: the heat treating process for that 440C stainless steel will NOT leave it for you to temper - that is part of the overall heat treating and must be done contemporaneous with the hardening. All this must be done by the professional heat treating facility. Many of the professional, and all the semi-professional knife makers that I know send their stainless steel knives/swords out to be heat treated. None of them try to do it themselves. Too foolhardy to risk destroying a hundred hours or more of hard work in ten minutes of heat treating gone wrong.

When you cut the profile for the tang, be sure you leave a decent radius on any inside corners. Sharp inside corners will create "stress risers", or places where the material will fail under stress and crack. For a sword tang, I'd suggest that the radius be equal to about the diameter of a regular pencil - say, a 5/32" radius. Alan Longmire or one of the other real bladesmiths here can give you more guidance on this, but that's my best guess. Just don't make a sharp inside corner, whatever you do! That's where all the stress is focused when a sword is actually used for what swords were designed to do - swing and cut, thrust and parry, all that stuff. Terribly embarrassing, even disastrously so, for the swordsman to be suddenly holding nothing more than the haft after a contact.

It sounds like your stainless was delivered in full annealed condition, and not too badly hardened by the shearing process. That will be good, since it will be easier to cut and finish than if it were half hard. Stainless is also abrasion-resistant, so it will take much patience and plenty of sharp abrasives to do the finish work. You will have LOTS of time and hard work invested by the time it is ready to heat treat, believe me. You will be very satisfied with the investment, I'm sure.

Keep us posted on your progress. Since we get hordes of youngsters here who want to make a sword, it would be handy to have a record of the actual amount of time you spend on this.
   vicopper - Friday, 06/19/09 09:54:15 EDT
James; do the distal taper before starting on the edges!

Thomas
   Thomas P - Friday, 06/19/09 12:20:04 EDT
Did I hear someone taking my name in vain? (big grin!)

That 5/32" radius Vicopper mentions is good for a knife. For a sword, especially a longish one, something more like an inch or better is the norm. 440 is a tough steel if treated correctly, but even it will snap like a dry twig the first time you (or your eventual kids) whack something with it if you leave sharp-cornered insdie shoulders at the tang.

Tang width is a big deal on a sword as well. I've seen plenty of playlike sword-shaped objects (the ones you can buy at the flea market for $25-$50) whith the tang about the size of a pencil. This too will lead to bending and breaking. Make the tang almost as wide as the grip at the guard end, and taper it to the pommel as little as you can. Most original medieval swords would have a blade at the guard about 1.25 to 1.75 inches wide. The tangs on these are about an inch at the guard tapering to maybe a half inch at the pommel. You also want to leave the tang the same thickness as the blade.

If you're gonna shape it with files and sandpaper, get the biggest and best files you can find! I like a 14" Nicholson Magicut or a 14" Simmonds Nu-Cut to start with. These are BIG files that will remove a lot of material quickly and yet will leave a fairly smotth finish that you can then clean up with smaller files.

By the time you have it down to where a 6" smooth bastard-cut file won't make it any smoother, move on to sandpaper wrapped around a flat steel bar. This will keep the ridgeline from getting rounded over or washed out. Use the best wet-or-dry sandpaper you can find, and use it wet. Start with 120 grit and move up by increments to 400, making sure you've removed all the scratches left by the previous grit. By 400 grit it should be a nice satin finish, and this is the point where it will be ready to send out to heat-treat which, again as Vicopper said, includes the tempering step as well. There's no shame in sending stainless out for heat-treatment, even many of the pros do so. A gentleman named Paul Bos in Los Angeles is the go-to pro of choice for heat treating stainless steels, but there are several others that do an excellent job. The length is going to cause problems, however, not all heat-treaters are set up to do long blades.

When you get it back, you may have to start with the 220-grit wet-or-dry paper again to remove the surface oxides. Or, and this would be the best if you want a shiny surface, have it electropolished after the heat-treat step.

If you work as fast as I do (which isn't very!), I'd estimate that doing a 36" sword blade will take you about two to three months of weekends to shape, and you'll wear out two or three files and a huge pile of sandpaper.

If you can use an angle grinder to set the initial distal taper and bevels, cut one weekend off that estimate. Be aware, though, that if you aren't good with an angle grinder (or a belt grinder) all it will do is allow you to screw up at speeds you never thought possible!

I'm not trying to talk you out of doing it by any means! I just want you to be fully aware of what you're getting yourself into. Who knows, you may get hooked and become a swordmaker!

Let us know how it's going!
   Alan-L - Friday, 06/19/09 15:25:13 EDT
One other important tidbit: DO NOT GIVE IT SHARP EDGES BEFORE HEAT TREATMENT! Leave the edges about the thickness of a dime or a little thicker, well rounded with no sharp corners. Any sharp corner is a potential stress riser during the heat treatment process and can result in a broken or cracked blade.

Air-quench steels like 440 are less troublesome in that regard than some, but better safe than sorry.
   Alan-L - Friday, 06/19/09 15:31:25 EDT
Tangs I've got rough sketches of what a tang should look like in the Sword Making article. I had intended to replace them with a better images but ran out of round-tu-its. My goal is still to revisit this article with complete photo how-to's for every stage.

The reason amateur, back yard, cheap. . . makers of blades like sharp tang corners is they are easy to fit the guard and grip. Those with a large radius require an equally large matching radius in the guard that is more difficult to seat than one with sharp corners and a small tang. Fitting the grip over a flat taper takes time and patience instead of a drilled hole. . .

On polishing I've updated the Polishing FAQ, the Wheels FAQ and added a Motor Polisher FAQ which has a link to the Wayne Goddard's $50 Knife Shop book review.

I love to shape things with a HD Wildcat angle grinder but as Alan noted you can screw up in a millisecond. It takes an eye for shape and line plus experience shaping with tool that wants anything BUT to be controlled.
   - guru - Friday, 06/19/09 17:07:13 EDT
Let me add in: Don't sharpen it till the very end---not until *after* the scabbard is made!

Once a sword is sharp is should be considered a "loaded" weapon 24x7! I would suggest putting in a mounting point for a peace cord on the scabbard. (a cord you tie around the hilt so the blade cannot be drawn from the scabbard without untieing it first---a "safety" for a sword.)

My grandmother once nearly cut her thumb off picking up one of my grandfather's swords *wrong* and having the blade slide out towards the floor sharp side against her thumb.

Boy was she mad when the first thing I said when she told me this story was "did you clean the blood off the blade?" (well I knew she had survived and what kind of damage had been done just seeing her...)

Thomas
   ThomasPowers - Friday, 06/19/09 20:07:58 EDT
My plan is to use a wide tang with deeply rounded edges where it connects to the blade. I had already figured for this and intend to spend the time filing out and shaping the brass guard to mate nicely with the tang. However, I was not counting on rounding the corners of the blade where the wide edges meet the guard, do you think that I should for the hardening process? To avoid the sharp corner problems mentioned above. I suppose I could always square them off afterwards, or just cut a groove into the guard to accept the entire width of the blade.

Also, along with hand files, I was planning on using the flat edge of a 6" bench grinder to help with the heavier grinding. Being semi-aware of the effect of heat and work-hardening of the steel, how should i approach this? Should I use water or oil during this part, not do it at all, or just move from one section to another to avoid over heating the metal?
   James - Saturday, 06/20/09 01:57:59 EDT
Bench Grinders and stainless generally do not mix well. The stainless tends to gum up wheels rapidly. For grinding stainless a belt sander/grinder is most often used and angle grinders with soft friable wheels also work.

I'm not sure how the annealed 440 will grind on a bench grinder but I suspect clogging will be an issue, especially considering the large amount of material to remove. A wheel dresser will be an absolute necessity. Wheels on these machines are designed for medium to hard carbon steels. Try it and see what happens. DO NOT grind on the side of the wheel.

When grinding hand held parts they are quenched in water repeatedly. You want to have a tank to submerge the entire piece.
   - guru - Saturday, 06/20/09 03:10:05 EDT
If you let me get up on my hobby horse for a minute, it seems to me it's time give in to reality and start giving all dimensions as diameters and not radii. It's hard to have a conversation without one party either confusing "radius" with "diameter" or wondering whether the other will. When you end up with someone as meticulous as VICopper writing "radius . . . equal to about the diameter of a regular pencil," it's time to throw in the towel.
   Mike BR - Saturday, 06/20/09 06:58:18 EDT
Mike BR: Okay, when I said a 1" radius, I meant "as ground with a 2" contact wheel," so it was truly a radius. (grin!) When I talk about radii, I'm usually thinking along the lines of the size of wheel that will produce the desired effect, so I may say something like a 1" radius or ground witrh a 2" wheel. But I know what you mean.

You should try figuring out dates in archaeological reports when they can be recorded as BC, BP, or BCE. BC and BP are easy enough, (BP is "before present") but BCE causes problems. It means "Before Common Era," and was invented by archaeologists to describe radiocarbon dates in which the "common era" was 1952, the year C14 dating was introduced. Historians, on the other hand, decided it sounded like a nifty term to use in place of "BC" as it did not have any kind of religious reference. So, if reading an unfamiliar report, you have to decide if the authors are using BCE to mean "years before 1952" or as a non-religious way of saying "BC". 1,952 years is a pretty big margin of error, eh?

James: The blade shoulders will be fine as long as you just gently hit 'em with some fine sandpaper. All you really need to avoid on outside corners is an edge sharp enough to cut. There should be no inside corners.

You're trying this as a Viking-style blade, right? (I went back and looked at all your posts to see how badly I've led you astray) If so, the blade should be set back into the lower guard anyway. Problem solved!

I wouldn't use a stone-wheel grinder at all. If you have a belt sander, you can clamp it upside down in a vise and use it (dry!), but I think you'll be happier with files. Stainless has a bad tendency to gall, so be sure you keep the files well chalked (just rub a piece of chalk into the teeth of the file, it'll help keep chips from sticking and gouging your work). Also, stop every few strokes and clear the filings. I use a toothbrush, a little wire brush, and a little piece of brass sheet as tools to keep the file teeth cleaned out. You'll see why when you start. You'll be filing merrily along, leaving a smooth surface, then suddenly you'll feel a slight change in the stroke, and there behind the file will be a deep gouge in the blade.

Clean the file before this happens! I've taught myself many new and amusing words over the years because of this and other minor annoyances in the field of arms manufacture, most of which cause my wife to yell out the house window "Shhh! The neighbors might hear you!"
   Alan-L - Saturday, 06/20/09 08:28:54 EDT
Mike BR is absolutely right about that post of mine - I winced the second I pushed the "post" button while reading that gaffe. Too late, however, and no way to edit posts in this forum, unfortunately. Radius equal to diameter, indeed! As one who constantly whines about people using "radius" when they really mean "diameter", I knew I was going to hear about that one. As I well deserved to! (grin)

I was trying for the visual thing to clarify the issue for just the reason Mike stated, and see what happened? While I really prefer to use the radius, rather than the diameter, (due to semantic issues), I think I'm going to just start saying, "as big around as your thumb", or something equally graphic and non-dimensional. Now I just have to figure out some standard graphic radii - thumbs vary too much, pencils are often hexagonal, toothpicks are sometimes flat. Hmmmm....
   vicopper - Saturday, 06/20/09 10:50:01 EDT
Alan,

I remember the joke in my dendrochronology lab was that a few decades didn't really matter to the radiocarbon folks -- their dates were all +/- 50 years or so anyway. What drove *us* nuts was another dendro lab whose computer thought there was a year zero. . . so all their BC dates were a year off.
   Mike BR - Saturday, 06/20/09 15:19:31 EDT
Off a year even though +/- 50 was the tolerance. . . !

Radius: is often a poorly used term by many people and it IS often easier to visualize a curve compared to some known diameter such as a 1/2" or 1" bar of steel.

I have sets of old fullers that ate marked in diameters instead of radius. But on a blueprint of a forging the spec is going to be radius. So, the smith had to be able to do the math or the part was screwed up. But this is also one of those places that creates the possibility of error.

In the shop we have positive and negative radius gauges for grinding tools and measuring results. But in the same drawer we may store a drill size gauge which is diameters.

I think it is a problem because in our trade we rarely use radius as a descriptive term today and as I mentioned above is it often easier to visualize in diameters.
   - guru - Saturday, 06/20/09 20:18:13 EDT
Guru,

Rereading my post, on dating, I realize I wasn't very clear. With dendrochronology (matching tree ring sequences) you can potentially date to a specific year. In fact, if your sample still has the bark (and matches a known sequence, of course) you can sometimes tell if the tree was cut down in the spring or the fall of that year. And if you're trying to match sequences, a year off is just as wrong as a century.

Radiocarbon dating, at least until recently had pretty wide tolerances. I think the new accelerator dating is quite a bit better. But it's also a matter of culture. With radiocarbon dating, you see a lump of charcoal that you can send off to a lab to get a date. With dendro, you might see a sequence of 20 rings that may have come from the center of a 200 year-old tree. You'd also think of the possiblity that it was a rotting beam from a 500 year old building that got thrown on the fire. So you need good samples to get a reliable date, but if you find them, you can often be pretty precise.
   Mike BR - Saturday, 06/20/09 22:15:23 EDT
I've also seen BCE given as Before Christian Era, which, I believe, starts with the year 1 on the death of Christ.

One problem with BC and AD is it left out approximately 33 years - the lifetime of Christ.

AD comes from a 6th Century monk who plotted years backwards. Most scholars feel it got it wrong by a small number of years. For example, if the Star of David (comet) was correct, comet trackers say the most likely year would have been 6-7 years later than the year of the birth of Christ used. Major Christian holidays (e.g., Easter and Christmas) were merely current holidays converted to a Christian meaning.
   Ken Scharabok - Sunday, 06/21/09 10:05:27 EDT
It is also a Eurocentric view of time and history. Others such as the Chinese have kept continuous track of the years from well into the Bronze Age. Then there is the very ancient Mayan calendar that was rudely interrupted by the invading Europeans.

The calendar as we know it is full of curiosities. Those that started officially counting the years in Mesopotamia used base 60 for their mathematics and used a 360 day year because their mathematics came from the gods (priests) and they were "perfect" and thus the year created by God had to be perfect as well. As we know, it is NOT. So the priests sprinkled the year with holy days which were not counted.

Then there was the change from the Julian calendar to the Gregorian calendar. Calendars had to be corrected 10 to 12 days depending on when the change was made and year end changed from mid spring to mid winter. Adoption of the calendar started in 1584 but many countries did not accept this "Catholic" calendar so there are global differences until 1927 with Turkey being the last country to make the change. For almost 200 years when you crossed the English channel you gained or lost 10 days and a year. Talk about jet-lag!

To make matters worse the public often did not adopt the change at the same time as the country did officially. So a Protestant church on one side of the street may have recorded a date 10 days and a year differently than a Catholic church on the other side of the street. Dual dates with a slash or noted OS and NS were also used but this may have been omitted as well.

So, if you need dates accurate to within a year or better any time from 1583 to 1927 OR spanning that period you had best get out your list of countries and the date they adopted the Gregorian calendar.

The adoption of the new calendar created all kinds of problems, especially related to contracts and rents. Monthly rents came due 10 days sooner by actual time. Did the landlord get to collect a full month's rent 10 days early OR only 2/3 of the rent? Did you have to move out 10 days sooner than you planned? Lots of issues.

   - guru - Sunday, 06/21/09 11:11:11 EDT
Can anyone tell me something about this flux that is supposed to be friendly to gas forge refractories? I found one such flux for $16 per lb that was 100% sodium tetraborate: borax. It did not list the snake oil content. Upon closer reading, it was safe for gas forges as long as you didn't let it spill on the refractory.
   quenchcrack - Sunday, 06/21/09 11:26:02 EDT
Ken, regardless of one's religious affiliations, AD does not leave out a 33-year period. Many American protestants believe that AD is an abbreviation for "After Death." It is not. It's Latin, Anno Domini, literally "year of the Lord," which includes birth. It starts at 1.

Whenever that actually was! (grin!) Any dating system is just a convenience, but we need to mark the passage of time somehow, so it's gotta start somewhere.

Mike, Dendrochronology is pretty nifty stuff. Annoys the heck out the historians around here, though, since many of the supposed late 18th century settlers' log cobins are being shown to be their children's or grandchildren's (or some stranger's who bought the land later)cabins, built to replace the rotten old homeplace about 30 to 50 years after the original hastily-built one became too unsafe to live in.

One cabin in particular is in funny position: The director of the historic site insists the cabin was built in 1783. He is therefore at an absolute loss to explain how a stump located beneath the floor was dendro-dated to having been cut in the fall of 1829...
   Alan-L - Sunday, 06/21/09 13:22:40 EDT
Quenchcrack,

That last sentence is a joke? or a catch 22?

Tony C,

In April, we talked about Lafitte welding plate. I found my piece while Spring cleaning, and if you want a snippet, let me know.
   - Frank Turley - Sunday, 06/21/09 13:22:53 EDT
To add to the above: we archaeologists were greatly pleased to have that stump under the floor, as it explained why we'd never been able to find any artifacts that predated about 1820 or so.
   Alan-L - Sunday, 06/21/09 13:24:14 EDT
I never heard of such a thing. I think the "snake oil" part is what you have. . .

Fluxes dissolve metal oxides and refractories are primarily metal oxides. . . Its kind of a hard fact to get around.

At room temperature water is the nearest thing to a "universal" solvent. Above its meting point glass is the next. Borax is probably more aggressive than glass and fluorite much more so.

It COULD be the fact that there is no powdered metal in the pure borax that it is easier on refractories than fluxes with additions.

Many borate fluxes are primarily boric acid. It is possible that this is harder on refractories than pure borax.

Keeping borax off the refractory is a real trick since much of it evaporates and may condense on cooler parts of the forge.

   - guru - Sunday, 06/21/09 13:29:15 EDT
Frank, that last sentence was half truth only. The ad says you need only enough to cover the surface of the parts being joined so use it sparingly. Fair enough and that could be true of any flux. Does drying it to anhydrous condition make it any less bubbly? If so, this might have been dried but it must have been a very expensive oven to add $14 per pound to the cost.
   quenchcrack - Sunday, 06/21/09 14:08:56 EDT
Forgot to add another question: Guru, if the borax evaporates and condenses on the cooler parts of the forge, putting a stainless pan under the part does little good, correct?
   quenchcrack - Sunday, 06/21/09 14:12:16 EDT
I recall reading somewhere, Hammer's Blow perhaps, that Borax is hydroscopic and even anhydrous borax doesn't remain so for long unless stored in sealed container, rod oven, or New Mexico;). Can anyone confirm this?
   Judson Yaggy - Sunday, 06/21/09 16:53:18 EDT
BORAX: Judson, Yes it is to a degree but not as bad as some substances. But its largely what fails in welding rod.

QC, The pan catches the liquid which is most damaging. But the stuff does get everywhere. . . Ideally you do not get that hot but gas forges tend to have hot spots. . .
   - guru - Sunday, 06/21/09 18:13:34 EDT
Since the boiling point of borax is somewhere over 2800F, if you've boiled the flux you've burnt the steel anyway, most likely. I've just about dissolved the 1" kiln shelf floor in my current forge and the Kaowool-lined walls and roof, coated with ITC-100 appear just fine, so I don't think I'm too concerned about borax fumes condensing on the walls and roof.
   vicopper - Sunday, 06/21/09 21:21:22 EDT
We had reports from a number of folks that do commercial work in gas forges that stated that borax "stalactites" form at the door (along with pools in the floor that had to be drained occasionally). While the work temperature is much below the boiling point the atmosphere in the forge is often hotter.
   - guru - Monday, 06/22/09 01:46:17 EDT
I'm building a shed with a wood floor. To be able to pound in there would it be better to build a section up to level with the floor made of concrete or have a cut out part so I can get to the dirt below?
   Eric Kelley - Monday, 06/22/09 03:10:02 EDT
Vicopper, I am not really talking about boiling the borax, it appears to be hydrate water flashing to steam and causing bubbles in the flux. At least that what I think it is since, as you pointed out, the boiling point of borax is 2800F.
   quenchcrack - Monday, 06/22/09 07:50:30 EDT
BC and AD:
Back when I was in Catholic school, the nuns taught that AD meant "After Death", and I also thought that left out those 33 years. Nuns were good for many things, but accuracy wasn't always one of those things. Years later I found out that AD stands for Anno Domini, which means Year of our Lord, and it starts from the birth of Christ. BC does mean Before Christ. So those 33 years are accounted for.
   - Marc - Monday, 06/22/09 07:58:36 EDT
Floors Eric, There are several ways to do this as your question indicates. The first thing is to be sure you put you anvil location where it is going to be. Don't crowd yourself to much or force yourself too close to the forge. I would not cut a hole in the floor for an anvil. Keep your floor continuous.

Support should be off a masonry pad (brick, stone, concrete). Wood columns from this should rest on flashing to prevent moisture rot. If a short distance (less than 3 feet) the columns could be 2 x 4's.

How you add the support depends on the size of the floor joists and their spacing. However, I would create a mass of supports flush to the top of the joists prior to installing the flooring. If you are using 2x8" or greater joists you might consider cutting them down to add a layer of flooring under the entire work area around the anvil as well as the supports. Then you could move your anvil a foot or so nearer or farther from the forge as needed.

The details of how you do this is not as important as having done so. I've reinforced floors for machinery using a 6" x 6" crossing under the floor joists with a couple floor jacks. If the machine foot rested mid-span between joists I would reinforce the floor underneath with 2x4's or 2x6's cut to fit. If the load was heavy we would put in ledge boards under the reinforcing. Glue will insure nailed joints do not creep apart. In other cases we just put in a 4x4 column under the load points.

About the only time you would want a foundation penetrating the floor is for a large power hammer. However, small hammers can be supported as above.
   - guru - Monday, 06/22/09 08:16:44 EDT
Rich; so there is *no* water vapour above a pot of water heating until it begins to boil? And no humidity in your air since it's below 212 degF down there?

Thomas
   Thomas P - Monday, 06/22/09 10:27:43 EDT
QC,

That bubbling is the water the borax has absorbed, alright. The anhydrous stuff, as long as it stays anhydrous, does avoid that.

Thomas,

I rather doubt that sodium tetraborate and water have the same properties, particularly as regards vapor pressure. However, I'm not a chemist so I will not state that emphatically. I think that Jock has the etiology of the condensate figured out, since the flame temp itself would be high enough to vaporize borax, albeit that the working temp of the forge might well not.
   vicopper - Monday, 06/22/09 12:10:06 EDT
I think boiling off your flux is less common in small gas forges but if your work is dry coming out of a coal forge it is as good as burnt. In large gas forges you can overheat steel more readily than in small ones and thus boiling off the flux is more likely.

As to vapor pressure we ARE talking about high temperatures where the rules are not the same as at room temperature or even boiling. . . I know rules change but I am not an expert on this.
   - guru - Monday, 06/22/09 12:35:42 EDT
What starting equipment should i consider for learning myself blaacksmithing from scratch? i aim to eventually produce replica weapons and armour and i have limited space, im also on a tight budget, so would probably want to start basic till im conifdent i can continue
   Jarveye - Monday, 06/22/09 12:52:13 EDT
Jarveye, The most important tool that many newbies skimp on is an anvil. There are a lot of shiny new but cheap junk anvils in places like ebay and the discount tool stores. A good anvil is a joy to work on and should be considered THE primary investment. Note that beat to pieces OLD anvils are JUST as good for starting out and cost the same or less than the new junkers. See our FAQ's page for more information.

A good vise is almost as important as an anvil. A smith will often work as much at the vise in a day as at the anvil. Per pound a vise is as expensive or MORE expensive than an anvil due to the mechanism. There are many good used blacksmiths leg vises in circulation selling for much less than new or what they are worth. Used ones are a bargain. Typically they will cost $150 US when purchased from a dealer or another smith and less from individuals.

Modern bench vises can substitute but must be heavy high quality tools. Bench vises are generally cast iron and cannot take the pounding that a forged blacksmiths vise will take. For many tasks such as filing, sawing, scraping, planing and other general holding tasks a machinists vise is just as useful as a blacksmiths vice. Vises WITHOUT a swivel base are better for most shop work.

More important than having a vise is mounting it on a steady support. Benches anchored to the wall and floor are the best. Posts anchored securely in the ground (two to three feet) are next and self supporting (portable) stands are the least effective. However, most hobby smiths do not have permanent work places and must regularly move their tools. In this case a portable stand is dictated by the situation. See our Vise FAQ.

The next major piece of equipment is the forge. While it is very important it is also the most commonly user built tool. Forges can be made from junk or scraps as well as purchased new and ready to use. The most important decision is the fuel type. While coal is still the number one choice of blacksmiths, many have been forced to use propane or natural gas and are very happy with it. Alternately you can use charcoal as a solid fuel and get similar results as with coal. This decision is usually made on the basis of availability and environmental concerns. If you live in a California suburb then forget coal. If you live in a rural area in almost any other state then your have more of a choice. If you live in a city you may or may not. If you live in a Northern city you may be able to buy coal from a local coal yard but if you live in the South you will have to pay to have it shipped to you.

In any case a small gas forge can be used almost anywhere and they are very handy even if you also have a coal forge. While many build their own I recommend buying one unless you are very handy. In that case you probably would not be asking these questions.

After anvil, vise and forge it is mostly hand tools (a couple hammers, tongs, files). Until you are trying to make a living with your smithing a good heavy duty hack saw and that vise will do for cutting stock. As your skills develop and you want to do more you should invest in welding equipment. An oxyacetylene setup and a buzz-box (transformer type arc welder). These also beg for an angle grinder to clean up cuts and welds. These two pieces also give you the capability to build other tools, machines, benches. . .

After the above there are infinite tools and machinery. A cutoff saw, shear, drill press, bench grinder, small lathe and more sophisticated welding equipment. And if you are turning pro a power hammer is a must.

So, start with the three primary shop tools and grow from there. If you quit these tools can often be resold for close to what they cost you or more. Also remember that you can "trade up" if you do not become too attached to your first tools. I'm afraid I become attached and regret every tool and machine I have let go. . .
   - guru - Monday, 06/22/09 13:37:37 EDT
More Tools: In any technical field you cannot find enough books. These in turn feed your MOST IMPORTANT tool, the one between your ears. The phrase "Knowlege is Power" is of very high relevance in the the crafts and metalworking trades. Books, even the higher priced newly published ones are cheap education. There are no strict blacksmithing text books being published but the general how-to books are mostly as good as text books and do not have the overinflated prices of text books sold to a captive student market.

See our review page or the list linked from our sword making resources list. You can purchase a small library of blacksmithing books for the several hundred dollar price that one semester's worth of college texts would cost. For around a thousand or less you could buy just about every book on the subject in print today. It is a CHEAP education, especially for the self taught.

AND do not overlook the books we have reproduced on-line. The two general smithing books complement each other somewhat and we have more to come.
   - guru - Monday, 06/22/09 15:29:30 EDT
I want to make a shear to be anchored in the hardy hole of my anvil. I have a piece of 130# to the yard railway line. I propose to cut off the actual rail part, leaving the very thick web, and use a leaf spring as the blade. The pivot would be a heavy bolt. Would that work? Should I make the cut on the line at an angle other than 90 degrees so as to make it like a knife or will a 90 be equally efficient.

Jarveye I started with an anvil, a hardie and a vice. Other than power tools almost everything else is home made by me.
   philip in china - Monday, 06/22/09 20:12:37 EDT
Shears: For hot work are not bad to build but for cold work are difficult. Except for cold shearing small bar MAYBE up to 5/16" or 10mm the anvil is not a suitable anchor unless its welded to the stand and the stand anchored to the floor. If you don't believe me then put a 3 foot bar in the hardy hole and pull hard on the far end. Most anvils and stands will tip over. Best axis to pull on is from the horn end toward it.

I have a little shear for 1/4" (6mm) round bar that I made to clamp in a vise. With a 3 foot handle the vice twists and the jaws try to spring open just before the bar shears with a "pop" (due to the spingyness of the vise mount).

Shears for metal have square edges that must be held close together. IF the blade is thin it will deflect and then instead of cutting it will try to fold the metal between the gap in the blades which deflects the blade even more. . . Blades need heavy side support. The gap is also proportional to the amount of burr created. The pivot is also critical. If it deflects, the blades seperate. . .

The classic Edwards type shear has a six to eight foot handle and the shear is anchored to the ground, usually in a concrete slab but occasionally in wood (that is anchored to a concrete slab OR a structural part of a building). Manual shears are no better than their anchoring.

Other shears have compound leverage or use gears to increase the force. The Beverly Shear uses a gear to increase force about 5x. The Whitney punches use compound leverage at the top of an arc (an over center device).

I've built large and small shears. The little one worked. The big one, built similar to some commercial models failed miserably. The little one was built like a bar shear with holes drilled through the blades. The big one was built from structural that had a 5/8" (16mm) web, had a 1" bolt for the pivot and a compound leverage arrangement. It sort of worked but the cuts looked torn in two. . .

I suspect that if you built four or five shears you would figure out the details and get a good small one in the end.

For hot work almost any shear will work as the force required is less than a tenth what it takes cold.

Good Luck!
   - guru - Monday, 06/22/09 21:18:29 EDT
Hey all, I just picked up a 255# Arm & Hammer anvil in pretty good shape and I was wondering if it could be dated by it's serial # (39922)? Anyone have an idea? I was told about Civil War era.
   Thumper - Monday, 06/22/09 23:25:17 EDT
Thumper

Arm & Hammer was not in business back during the civil war!! They starting making anvils in 1900. Your anvil was made sometime between 1924-1934.

Civil War!! Laughing my rear off!! Dumb goober

You do have a very nice and quality anvil.
   - Anvil Stump - Monday, 06/22/09 23:50:05 EDT
The goober is the person who dated it civil war...ROTFL. I have a piece of metal with an electric weld. Think it was from the bronze age? LOL
   - Anvil Stump - Monday, 06/22/09 23:52:50 EDT
No offense taken, it was owned by an old woman who rememered her grandfather working on it. Old, being relative as I'm a "young & spry" 60 myself.
   Thumper - Tuesday, 06/23/09 00:23:01 EDT
Yeah, but could the old woman tell a London pattern from a double horned or a Mousehole from a Peddinghaus. To most of the world an anvil is an anvil is an anvil. Do all (insert unfamiliar/exotic race here) look the same to you? Anvils are that way to everyone except smiths that study them.
   - guru - Tuesday, 06/23/09 00:46:34 EDT
I have always laughed at this system: "My grandmother had it, she died last year aged 84 therefore it is at least 85 years old". You hear it a lot.
   philip in china - Tuesday, 06/23/09 10:02:50 EDT
Phillip; as I recall there are several "home made shears" discussed in "Practical Blacksmithing", Rhichardson, including one I remember the writer using to trim plowshares with (ie pretty stout!)

Jarveye; if you live in the United States then one of the most important tools you can get is a public library card!

Even our small town NM library can ILL rare and expensive works for me and all they charge is US$1---not bad to get my hands on a $300 book! I am always astounded by the number of people that think a couple of pages on a website can take the place of thousands of pages of books. Where the web excels is searching for the names of books you should dig into.

Also if you are near central NM, USA, may I invite you to the South West Artist Blacksmith Association meetings. Finding the local blacksmithing organization can save you hundreds of dollars and hours getting set up and learning the basics.

Go to the "navigate anvilfire" drop down menue and look near the bottom for ABANA-Chapter.com for a listing of blacksmithing groups and get hooked up!

Thomas
   Thomas P - Tuesday, 06/23/09 11:47:57 EDT
I was wondering about something. I have a small propane forge, front and back doors. Place a vice behind the back door, a vice that will swivel in front, have strips of steel running vice to vice through the forge. Get the steel up to welding temperature and start twisting it, would it create a weld ?
   Mike T. - Tuesday, 06/23/09 11:56:41 EDT
Any recommendations for a good bandsaw blade manufacturer? I'm going through these cheap bi-metal ones. They cut SO slooooooooooooooooow
   - Nippulini - Tuesday, 06/23/09 14:30:45 EDT
Band Saw Blases: Nip, I prefer Lenox variable pitch tooth blades. The Lenox Die Master 6/10 is available in 1/2 x .020 and .025 so they can be made for any 4x6 saw. Note that the pitch is not suggested for thin wall tubing or sheet metal. However, I have cut 16ga which is technically too thin for the pitch. You just have to feed slow so that teeth are not stripped off.

   - guru - Tuesday, 06/23/09 15:33:21 EDT
Twist Weld: Mike, Maybe, in spots, or not at all.

1) Gas forges tend to scale steel worse than other forges.

2) Gas forges run at the low end of welding temp for low carbon steels.

#1 and #2 mean that forge welds are not "automatic" or assured in a gas forge.

3) Twisting layers produces shear (slip) and pressure points or lines but not uniform pressure.

4) Good forge welding allows for flux and scale to squeeze out of the joint under controlled circumstances.

SO, you may get stuck spots with lots of gaps.

Its an interesting idea. In production laminate welding heating is done in fast heating inert gas filled furnaces on between induction coils and the weld occurs just as the metal passes out of the furnace into rollers that squeeze the two or more pieces together.
   - guru - Tuesday, 06/23/09 15:34:36 EDT
Twist weld, part two:

If you want it to work, assuming your forge can get to welding temperature (which not all forges can), first weld the stack into a solid billet, then forge it into a round bar, THEN twist it. All steps done at welding heat to minimize the chances of delamination. If you leave the billet with square corners, it sets up shear stresses along those sharp corners. Just knocking off the corners helps a lot, but for the best results a full round bar twists with the least stress.
   Alan-L - Tuesday, 06/23/09 15:41:08 EDT
Hello, I know nothing about anvils other than what I have read on line. Which is still very little. Wanting an anvil to have for tinkering around the barn I had been searching lately. The best looking and best priced I found was a Hay Budden around 85 pounds. Seeing where this is an old good name and the price was OK from what I had been seeing I purchased it today. It has what appears to be an R or K up to a side. Underneath that is Atlanta Ga. Under that is Hay Budden, Brooklyn NY and USA. Under that is what appears to be an 8 and a 2, I assume the pounds. At the bottom on one side are some unmakeable numbers-gotta do some cleaning-I will assume this is the serial number and will tell me the year made. What my question is why does it have Atlanta Ga on it? It appears to me to be in decent shape. Straight edge shows little dip in the center maybe a 32 nd. The edges are well rounded and the step down has chips. Roughly what should this sell for easily? Thanks for any information. ASAP I can clean up I will try to get serial numbers and repost.
   Derek Thomas - Tuesday, 06/23/09 16:48:42 EDT
Derek, I would have to see the markings. IF the markings were added to an old anvil by stamping then it may have just been some property ID. BUT if the letters are raised or heavily carved there is a good chance it is a cast anvil of unknown quality using a Hay-Budden for a pattern.

If cast and made of cast iron then it is a scrap iron door stop, not a tool, just a decorator item. If cast of good steel and hardened then it is a usable anvil and worth $100 to $300 US.

If it is an actual old Hay-Budden it is worth about $200 to $350 US.

But it sounds like there is a good chance it is a common cast copy.
   - guru - Tuesday, 06/23/09 17:35:00 EDT
Awhile back I had found a website that was selling sections of preformed caprail for purchase. They had several different cross sections available. Now that I need some I'll be dipped if I could find them now. Does anyone know where I might find them? I'm looking for 2 8ft sections of rounded center and flat edge in 1.5-1.75 wide. Kinda like a flattened bowler hat with flat brim in crossection. Thanks in advance.
   Biff Schaefer - Tuesday, 06/23/09 18:28:14 EDT
How do you find out the age or brand of an anvil?....The only marks i can find on one i just bought are 1....2.....10 The numbers were spaced apart...Does that indicate weight?...It looks old and may weigh 200 lbs........thanks for any info....I have a forge and now to work......carl
   carl - Tuesday, 06/23/09 18:39:58 EDT
Carl, it weighs 178# per those markings. The system is explained elsewhere on the site. First mark is cwt (hundredweights) i.e. units of 112#, the second is qtr (i.e. units of 28# and the last one is pounds. So you have
1 x 112 =112
2 x 28 = 56
10 = 10
Total 178
   philip in china - Tuesday, 06/23/09 19:35:05 EDT
Carl, it weighs 178# per those markings. The system is explained elsewhere on the site. First mark is cwt (hundredweights) i.e. units of 112#, the second is qtr (i.e. units of 28# and the last one is pounds. So you have
1 x 112 =112
2 x 28 = 56
10 = 10
Total 178
   philip in china - Tuesday, 06/23/09 19:35:30 EDT
Laminated Steels: There have been some tremendous advances in billet welding in recent years. Most are simple once you have seen or heard about them. Ideas like using thin stock to reduce the total welding procedures and chance of problems. Using square or near cubical billets rather than long slender ones, to reduce weld area and make the mass more compact and hold heat better. The use of consumable containers or wrapping to prevent oxidation assures reliable repeat welding. When all these are combined with using a press or rolling mill the efficiency and reliability is much better than it used to be.
   - guru - Tuesday, 06/23/09 19:56:36 EDT
Age and Brand of an Anvil: Unless there is a name clearly stamped or cast into the anvil then brands can only be speculated about. Age can be told somewhat by style and details such as lack of a pritchel hole.
   - guru - Tuesday, 06/23/09 19:59:15 EDT
Guru et al,

What is the square hole in some anvils that runs from horn to heel, or horn to horn, through the middle of the anvil? What is its purpose?

Thanks,
Matthew
   Matthew Barker - Tuesday, 06/23/09 20:05:51 EDT
i think that is the handling hole, i believe it is used for wrestling the anvil during forging, or are you referring the hardy hole? does this run through the waist or is it vertical?
   bigfoot - Tuesday, 06/23/09 20:32:00 EDT
Bigfoot,

Through the waist, from horn to heel or horn to horn. It is not the hardy hole.

Yours,
Matthew
   Matthew Barker - Tuesday, 06/23/09 21:10:07 EDT
ok that sounds like a handling hole to me (don't take my word for it let the guru answer it). those were on the forged anvils so they could be lifted from the fire to be hammered away on. just some people can get the hard mixed up with other square holes on the anvil (like me a few months ago).
   bigfoot - Tuesday, 06/23/09 21:16:08 EDT
Matt, bigfoot is correct. These "handling holes" are properly called "porter bar holes".

Guru

Don't you know every anvil people have or find is at least from the civil war if not the revolutionary war. You can substitute any antique item for the term "anvil". If you spent many years in the antiques business as I have you would have understood the tongue and cheek remark. Most people are liars or goobers when trying to sell an old item. Everyone's Grandfather used or had one of everything ever made. To us that were in the business it gets very old!! The lesson is to educate yourself on what you have before you sell it. Also you can't expect someone to pay for sentiment. Only what the item is worth by trend at that monent in time, not based on a book value. Remember the author's create pricing to increase the value of their own collections. Also prices are based on high dollar auction houses where items were sold to rich collectors. Two nuts battle each other and ran a price up at one moment in time. You're comment to my comment holds very little validity based in reality. I realize it was a good instant thought at the moment and nothing more. The seller was not informed or a shrewd liar. I don't trust most old people because they will spin a web of bulldung to make a sale. Always and exception to the rule and may be the case with her. If she sold it for 25-100 bucks I would believe it.

   - Anvil Stump - Tuesday, 06/23/09 22:35:39 EDT
Guru

After being in the anvil selling business for long time. I estimate the little hay budden 85 lb anvil is worth 150.00-200.00 depending on condition. a sale of 225.00 would be a stretch to the right person after a lengthy wait. As your guess mine is opinion based only.
   - Anvil Stump - Tuesday, 06/23/09 22:43:27 EDT
Anvil Features: The handling holes do not pass through. They are quite deep and may look like they meet in the middle but they do not as far as all examples I have seen. It might be possible on some small anvil that the holes were punched too deep.

The handling holes on either side of the waist were for two tapered bars OR the tips of special tongs to get a secure grip on the anvil for shaping, welding, heat treating and grinding. Some have a similar hole in the base that fit a spike in special third rein tongs.

Holes that pass through from side to side are features of chainmaker's anvils for supporting tooling (swages, tommy hammers. . ). These are fairly rare and special anvils.

Some smiths have been known to use the handling holes to store punch lube (beeswax, heavy grease, special compound).
   - guru - Tuesday, 06/23/09 22:57:11 EDT
Value vs Civil War

Guru & Thumper

The general public has the misconception that an item has more value if made during the civil war or stated to be much older than is. Certain few items for nostagia reasons this is true. War items, certain arms etc... A civil war era anvil may hold nostagia to a certain smith for demo or whistful yearnings. It doesn't make it have value. This is the same as making value from sentiment. Thumper's Arm & Hammer anvils is more valuable as a working tool than any anvil from the Civil War era. It is known to be a high grade tool in materials made, process, heat treatment, manufacturer rep etc... It is certainly superior quality to any civil war era made anvil. The anvil Mass have reconized this make to be in the top three anvils in value and desirability. Don't think for a moment from me shucking my head at the civil war era to be a bad thing. You're anvil is a much better usable tool and has monetary value that will likely remain stable or increase from the populas desire. A 225 Arm & Hammer in excellent condition typically brings 500-1000 depending what the market bares that day.

"An item is only worth what a person is willing to pay". Books are guides and reference, nothing else.
   - Anvil Stump - Tuesday, 06/23/09 23:08:26 EDT
Bill Schaefer,

Try Lawton or King Architectural or Julius Blum, all have websites you can Google for.
   vicopper - Tuesday, 06/23/09 23:46:46 EDT
Wedding sword cont.

I have met a new friend in the course of my studious project, a fifth-generation blacksmith who makes his living making and selling expensive knives. He has convinced me to purchase a belt grinder and told me of a fairly cheap option, (about $500 total!!!), on a 2"x72" belt grinder/buffer. He promises me that I will become addicted to this hobby and that I will probably make more when I'm finished with this one. Being a mechanically inclined person, I find it easy to justify the purchase of any tool, even expensive ones, so I'll probably do it.

But the reason for this post is that he has mentioned to me another hardening option, (not to discount those who have already offered input here, I'm taking all of it in, really). He has suggested edge hardening the blade, by using several torches simultaneously on just the edges to reach the hardening temps and also to temper. This made sense in the way that this would keep the center of the blade "soft", (not sure if too soft as it is annealed now, but I imagine the edges being heated would transfer heat to the center hardening it somewhat as well), while making the edges hard.

So what does everybody think of doing it this way? I must say his explaining it to me was fairly convincing.
   James - Wednesday, 06/24/09 01:15:04 EDT
You know, after doing some more reading on-line, I think myself that sending it out for a controlled HT at a proper facility is probably the better option. But I'd still like to hear if anyone has tried "edge-hardening" and how it worked out.
   James - Wednesday, 06/24/09 03:40:05 EDT
Nip, I too use and like the Lennox variable tooth in a 4 x 6 bandsaw. For thin stock like 16Ga tube, I use a 28 tooth lennox. Not the Diemaster II, as it is not made in that type but a Lennox stock usually used for porta-band saws.
The Hagemeyer folks make them up for me. I do use another Diemaster II for inbetween, a 18 or 20 tooth, so in fact I keep 3 tooth spacing blades. I keep the 28 tooth on one saw all the time, and the 9 to 14 on the other most of the time. A little stick lube extends the life.
I find that with the hard tooth bandsaw blades the main cause of failure is tooth stripping. I usually find that the rest of the blade is still sharp, and simply snap the blade into lenghts that I then lightly grind the ends on to hacksaw lenght. With the soft back on the Diemaster, one can drill the needed holes for mounting with a standard HSS drill and then you have an aggressive hacksaw blade:)
   Ptree - Wednesday, 06/24/09 05:47:30 EDT
James, do you think a newly minted surgeon starts out doing brain surgery? Or maybe taking out some tonsils to get the feel of things? Your 5th generation smith might be very capable of differential hardening but you might find it a bit tricky.
   quenchcrack - Wednesday, 06/24/09 07:39:06 EDT
So, since my great-grandfather was a Confederate veteran (cavalry, rode with Jubal Early) and I have the hinges from one of his barns or stables on the door of my forge, not only are they "Civil War" but they're "Confederate" and thus worth a lot of money on the "Moonlight & Magnolia" market. ;-)

I remember one gun show auction, back in the late '60s, where a pointy, long iron bar was being raffled off as a rare Confederate boarding pike. More likely it was a spud for breaking up hard dirt, but somebody bought it anyway. I bid on a book, instead.

The truth is that "Civil War" or "Revolution" or "Colonial" or "Confederate" is something that people can relate to; and age always adds to the interest, as well as the romance of past eras. Terms like this beat the heck out of "early 20th century" or "ca. 1890" in our imaginations.

I had been mislead on several family antiques because I had been told by family or self-styled experts that they were "this old" or "from there". Some really were old and unique, but a number of others were not. However, once someone I trusted told me that such-and-such was true, I turned off my critical faculties and never really took a close look at it. The received wisdom triumphed until someone with a more neutral and critical eye took a look and disabused me of my illusions.

I think of myself as "trusting" but that can also be considered an element of "gullible." :-)

Off of work today, preparing for Camp Fenby ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CampFenby/ )

Sunny and warm on the banks of the lower Potomac.

Visit your National Parks: www.nps.gov

Go viking: www.longshipco.org

   Bruce Blackistone (Atli) - Wednesday, 06/24/09 08:44:43 EDT
The Wedding Sword: James, The Edge Hardening: The problem is that you already have found the annealed blade to be soft enough to bend easily. - Or maybe it is OK and took more to straighten than it would normally see. But if too soft in this respect then hardening the edges is not going to make a difference. Normally you want springy that will return to shape but no harder except the edges. . .

The point of edge hardening is to create an edge that can take being very sharp and holding an edge. The BIG problem here is that the goal was to make a display piece, a wall hanger that is most likely going to be handled by many people and NEVER used for anything else. In this case you want a tapered but purposely rounded DULL edge that is not going to accidentally hurt some innocent. Remember, those people will very likely NOT have experience handling a double edged sword and include your wife, your future children - THEIR friends, your best man, father in-law. . (maybe the whole wedding party) and others in your future.

The point of something like this is to be ART. When finished less than half the art in a sword is blade. You have the guard, grip and pommel to design and create more artistically than the rest. In the case of a display piece you may want a custom holder or case.

If you want a hardened and tempered SHARP weapon you can lose a lot of the art. It is a killing tool that makes a mess of the victim and killing with a LOT of blood and gore.

If anyone asks why its dull it is because it is retired and been made safe so that fools that cannot just look but MUST touch do not hurt themselves. There are FAR more of these people in the world than those that can stand back with their hands behind their back and just admire a work of of art.

The belt grinder is a great tool and not just for making knives. But you know your future better than we do.
   - guru - Wednesday, 06/24/09 08:49:14 EDT
Mouseholes vs Peter Wrights:

Since records no longer apparently exist who knows. I had a discussion with Richard Postman about this and he said, as near as he can tell, Mousehole dominated the England to U.S. export market prior to the Civil War. Afterwards PW did.

I can only go by what I see listed on eBay and PWs dominate MHs by a considerable percentage.

May mean nothing. Perhaps MHs were so worked by strikers prior to the Civil War they were eventually scapped Due to the multi-composite bodies, horns or heels broken off? Perhaps post-Civil War PWs simply withstood daily (now mechanized) use better and are thus still around in greater quantity.
   Ken Scharabok - Wednesday, 06/24/09 09:20:46 EDT
James:

Sounds like a Grizzly or Coote belt grinder? They're a decent tool to have around, you'll end up using it for many things.

As for differential hardening, stainless steels are notorious for not being able to have this done. The high alloy composition means they're usually very deep-hardening steels.

I have flame-hardened just the edge of a rather large single-edged sword made from pattern-welded carbon steel, and while it sort of worked, I knew it was going to be a wallhanger. I wouldn't do it to a working blade. I recently tried to do the same to a double-edged sword forged from 9260, a spring alloy that I know can be differentially hardened. It self-destructed. I wouldn't try it with 440.

You can get away with many techniques on knives that simply don't work on swords. In my opinion, torch-hardening is one of those techniques.
   Alan-L - Wednesday, 06/24/09 10:16:16 EDT
HB Anvil: also HB made anvils for other "dealers" and you may have one marked for a specific dealer---if it's punched into the anvil. Raised markings are a warning sign of casting and as such are expected and tolerated for Fisher and Vulcan anvils and a BAD sign for any other old "good name" anvil!

Edge hardening is often done for knives by edge quenching. For swords the japanese do a version using a very shallow hardening steel and a clay coating on the back to reduce heat transfer---in the quench!

You would not want to do either version with a SS sword!!!!!! pro heat treat is pretty much a requirement for those alloys.

War items: being a "user" rather than a "collector" I generally stay away from items made during the wars especially civillian ones as they are often poorer in quality. I have seen books printed during WWII that are degrading much faster than ones printeds during the 1920's!

Claims about items: in general I try to hold with the "Never ascribe to malice what can be explained by stupidity"
But I sure have met a lot of people trying to screw over others! Just recently I bought 12 mill balls from a fellow at a fleamarket for US$1 a ball; 3 spots up a fellow was selling the same balls *he* had bought from the same fellow as "cannon balls" for $5 a piece. A pure lie as the original dealer knew what they were and didn't misrepresent them when selling. He was upset when I called him on it asking me how I knew they were *not* cannon balls. Pretty easy: wrong material, wear markings, and wrong size for any cannon used around these parts from Rev war times till now!

Thomas
   Thomas P - Wednesday, 06/24/09 10:28:33 EDT
You may see more PW's on ebay but I see far more Mouseholes in the real world. Since Mouseholes sold under names such as M & H Armitage and many others. Perhaps there are more PW's in better condition and thus more on the auction market. OR could be because of the recognizable name. We DO know of forgers putting PW on unmarked tools in order to get higher prices. SO it could just be a name thing. . .
   - guru - Wednesday, 06/24/09 10:34:07 EDT
Anvil Weight: what Phillip posted holds true for English anvils which were marked in CWT (and now in KG).

American made anvils are not marked CWT but in pounds.

There is a lot of confusion out there and as often anvils end up priced "per pound" it can make a big difference!
1 2 3 is 171 pounds CWT but only 123 pounds if marked in pounds at $2 a pound that would be close to $100 difference!

Rarely have I had people try to sell me CWT marked anvils as pound weight marked; but quite often I've had people try to sell me a pound marked anvil as being CWT weight!

*MOST* people are bad judges of weight and their estimates can be wildly off. After many wasted hours going to auctions with "large anvils" being advertised only to find out that the "large anvil" was under 100 pounds I started asking the auctioneer over the phone, "how many men did it take to move the anvil" If one it's *NOT* a large anvil. If two it's a medium sized anvil and if he laughed and said they used a tractor/forklift/etc to lift it *then* I went to the auction. (but ended up buying my large anvils by private sale---much cheaper than the auctions I went to).

Thomas
Thomas
   Thomas P - Wednesday, 06/24/09 10:38:05 EDT
In this part of the world (Western Canada)in the 75-150ish pound range I have seen more PW's than any other. Larger than that they are about 1/2 and 1/2 Mouseholes and PWs with a few other names and nonames. I think the reason for so many small PWs is because Eaton's sold a farm blacksmith shop kit in their catalog. One of the oldest documentable anvils out here is a Mousehole. I was told they have the record of it being shipped to Fort Edmonton late 1700's by some one who used to volunteer at the smithy at Fort Edmonton. All second hand and anecdotal information.
   JimG - Wednesday, 06/24/09 13:20:27 EDT
Sales Regions had a lot to do with anvil distribution. While Mousehole and PW sold anvils in the U.S. French and Spanish manufacturers sold anvils in Mexico and Central America but not in the States or British Colonies. Other British manufactures sold anvils in British Africa, India and Australia. I suspect that this had to do with royal grants or some type of trade agreements.

The one, two or three man carry weight range is a good one but I have known folks that moved 600 pound anvils alone and others that took 350 pound anvils to demos in the back seta of a Volkswagon. . . So you need to judge those doing the moving a bit. But if one man can move you and be assured it is usually under 200 pounds.
   - guru - Wednesday, 06/24/09 14:35:41 EDT
I don't know anything about anvils ( I use a big block of steel ), but when I think of steel production, I think of Germany, the Krupp family who made huge guns ( some of the earliest were considered engineering marvels ) and other armament for war production. I also think of the Ruher valley where their ore comes from. For some reason, I think they would make a superb anvil.
   Mike T. - Wednesday, 06/24/09 20:18:32 EDT
The Germans made very fine anvils and tools but England had the export market tied up from their Colonial days then the U.S. as we rose to economic and trade power. You will find prewar German anvils in Europe and Africa and a few Globaly after the war. However, the peak of blacksmithing was at the end of the horse drawn era so much of the market since then has been local. The Forged Peddinghaus anvil from Germany is sold world wide.

   - guru - Wednesday, 06/24/09 20:43:14 EDT
Echoes From the Past:

Today I received an email from a woman on the West Coast who was trying to track down the person who made a sterling silver tray she was brokering at auction. She was looking online and found my website through a search and contacted me to see if I was the smith who had made the piece back in 1971. The tray was stamped on the bottom, "Waugh, 1971, Colo" and sterling silver. It was, in fact, a piece I had made and I was interested to see it again some 38 years later.

I bring this up only to point out the importance of properly marking your work to identify the maker and time of manufacture. (In this case, also to indicate the material.) Had that piece been stamped only with my seahorse touchmark, it would have been absolutely impossible for her to locate me or to learn anything about the person who made the tray.

Based on this experience, I will henceforth be stamping my work with my name, as well as my touchmark, and adding the date, something I haven't customarily done with my blacksmithing works. Something to think about.
   vicopper - Thursday, 06/25/09 00:43:45 EDT
I do not mark all my work but on anything appreciable I've put my name and date, sometimes the location, AND occasionally the customer.

IF you are in business, Having a presence on the web, in your name, is more important than a sign or a telephone listing. People are still learning this but the public looking for you EXPECTS it!
   - guru - Thursday, 06/25/09 01:13:35 EDT
Here is an idea I had. Most of the time an idea is not an original idea, but here goes. Get a piece of pipe, cut a slot from the end ( two slots 180 Deg. apart ) then drill
two or three holes, threading them for set screws. A flat bar of steel can be placed in the slot and the set screws tightened or a round piece ie. W1 drill rod put in the end hole and set screws tightened. This would allow a person to handle the steel with one hand and quick placement from the forge to the anvil and visa versa. Would probably need welding gloves in case it heated up too much.

   Mike T. - Thursday, 06/25/09 01:14:09 EDT
JimG: Can you elaborate on the Eaton catalog. I came across an Eaton anvil on eBay and sent copy of listing to Richard Postman. Confirmation Eaton was a Canadian mail order catalog company would provide additional documentation. Can you perhaps e-mail me a photocopy of that catalog page so I can forward it to Richard?

On eBay I've noticed most HILL anvils are listed in the norhtern tier of states. Almost like they were exported to Canada and some found their way south.
   Ken Scharabok - Thursday, 06/25/09 04:56:28 EDT
Guru - I was going through the FAQ page and was impressed with the 'Blacksmith's Gazette' pages.

Is it still possible to order the back issues on CD-ROM? There's a price given, but no contact info.

75 deg. F (in the shade) with high humidity north of the Lake (Ontario.) Thunderstorms forecast for this afternoon.

Don
   Don - Thursday, 06/25/09 09:22:08 EDT
GURU, This is concerning the Hay Budden I posted about on 06-23-09. After getting it cleaned up it appears the serial number is 9089-could you possible tell me a year by this?. Under the horn at a square hole is an 8 stamped. Again it has hay budden stamped on it and 82 for the pounds. The Atlanta Ga. stamp above the Hay Budden is stamped in really well-deeper and wider stamping than the Hay Budden stamp. Again I know nothing about anvils but it has a real nice ring and rebound when tapped. Compaired to the cheap china cast iron I have which just goes thud. I think I will be happy with it for just piddling around the barn things. Thanks for any information and the information the other day. Derek
   Derek Thomas - Thursday, 06/25/09 09:39:34 EDT
Mike T. - sounds like a good beginning. My thought is that as described, the pipe could act as a chimney, channeling hot gases up it. With the convection it could get pretty darn hot fairly soon. I believe you could stop the chimney effect by putting a blockage in the pipe upward from your holding slots. I'd probably try jamming some kaowool into it to stop hot gases and temp transfer.
   - Gavainh - Thursday, 06/25/09 09:48:15 EDT
Just putting a good set of tongs on the piece and using a set of rein clips would do better and be faster to do/change and not have the chimney effect.

I call this the blacksmith version of vise grips and use it for students who have trouble manipulating tongs and the hammer at the same time. If I was going that route I would neck the pipe down around a piece of round stock and use the round stock for the handle and only a short section of pipe for the screw holder.

Kaowool is not suggested to be Jammed as that will spread the fibers around the air more.

Thomas
   Thomas P - Thursday, 06/25/09 10:21:38 EDT
Anvils--Here in the foothills of the West coast, I have seen lots of Peter Wrights but not a single Mousehole. One of my two anvils came from a blacksmith shop in Columbia, CA, a ~200 lb Peter Wright. The other anvil from that shop was a smaller Fisher (with eagle on the side). My other anvil is an ~100 lb "portable" Joshua Wilkinson, also from the old days and from the area.

Although I don't go ID'ing every anvil I see, I usually at least glance at them and would examine a Mousehole, for the novelty

Hot in the Sacramento Valley (you have to live where you work, so here I am). OH! for the week after the 4th, have a backpack trip scoped out, 25 miles along the Lost Coast, the longest stretch of wilderness coast hiking in the lower 48, cliffs meeting the sea, 3 crossings at low tide only. Guess this poisonoaker has to figure out tides (don't got them where I'm from)

David Hughes
   - David Hughes - Thursday, 06/25/09 11:45:20 EDT
Blacksmiths Gazette: We have the CD to reproduce but have not taken the time to get it reproduced. I'll put it on my to-do list. The disk was not very well organized and I was working on adding an index before distribution. We also have early print additions I was going to add. . .

Feel free to remind me now and then.
   - guru - Thursday, 06/25/09 11:45:52 EDT

Homebuilt Anvil

Hi Guru,
I build large knives, and recently found myself in need of a larger anvil, so I researched your page, borrowed from your knowledge, and built myself a new anvil from a 4x6x16 block of 4140 tool steel (4150 steel in this size is very hard to find). A 4x6x16" block weighs about 100 lbs. and can be had for about $1.50 a pound. You can build one too for less than $200 and some sweat equity. Tough 4140-4150 tool steels are common for industrial dies.
I placed my 4140 anvil plate atop a section of 10 in. heavy pipe (with 2-2x3/8x16 in. straps welded onto pipe bottom, welded atop 3 pieces of 12 in. rebar), set into a 16x20x6 in. concrete base. I used commercial-mixed 4000 psi pea gravel concrete (2 5-gal. buckets). Joints are fully welded, pipe is double wrapped in thin carpet, and base is set upon a thin layer of carpet, producing a great anvil that produces a sweet low hammer ring that is not offensive or loud.
A week later I added a 1x1 in. hardie frame to the middle of the backside with 2-1x3 in. pieces of 3/8 in. steel strap, capped with a third piece of steel 1 3/4x3 in.; these pieces were formed around a piece of 1x1 in. rod, with strips of thin electrical tape on all 4 faces of rod for clearance, and whole assembly clamped in place and then welded. Top edge is lightly ground true with anvil surface. Various hardie tools with 1x1 in. shafts can then be added and used.
An equivalent cast blacksmith anvil would cost many hundreds of dollars. My anvil project was completed in two afternoons, and cost less than $200.00.
Thanks for your column, and your advice.

G. Cody, Swan, NC
   Gary Cody - Thursday, 06/25/09 15:17:12 EDT
Gordy, Thank you very much for the credit.
   - guru - Thursday, 06/25/09 17:48:20 EDT
Boy my eyes are getting bad. . . I menat Gary,
   - guru - Thursday, 06/25/09 20:17:28 EDT
Ken,
So much for relying on memory. In my 1919, 1927, and 1934 Eaton's catalogs the anvils, vises, and forges are 'Imperials' (which I've never seen). I do have a 1937 MacCleods flyer which has Peter Wright anvils. I'll check later to see if I can find any more info for you.
   JimG - Thursday, 06/25/09 20:31:47 EDT
Ken- I would agree with your Hill observations- I had a 200# Hill that I bought in New Hampshire, moved it to Vermont for 10 years, then sold it (via Ebay) back to a guy in NH. A friend of mine in Montreal sees a lot of unmarked or marks worn off Colonial patterns. Not proof, but corroboration.
   Judson Yaggy - Thursday, 06/25/09 20:59:31 EDT
i know this is more of information for blacksmiths but im looking for a skilled blacksmith to make a custom sword for me. its a fairly simple design with some detial in the gaurd. i have a blue print with measurements already made. if you could please refer me or if any sees this that could make it please contact me. itr1182@hotmail.com. mike
   - michael saccoccio - Thursday, 06/25/09 21:24:54 EDT
Michael, You may want to try swordforums.com if you are looking for a bladesmith. However, there are a few bladesmiths that hang around here. . .

It will help if your "blueprint" is in CAD and converted to a PDF so you can email it. A true drawing will be dimensioned. However, fine details should be left up to the bladesmith. If you have overall dimensions then weight calculations should have been done. The last "blueprint" I was sent weighed in at 800 pounds. The designer refused to think this was a problem. Should be 1% or less of that.

You also need to specify a use. If its a pure wallhanger, collectors art piece or a practice sword. It makes a big difference in metallurgy and price.
   - guru - Thursday, 06/25/09 23:52:31 EDT
...Not to mention most similarly-phrased requests for a sword I've gotten (the ones that were not impossible fantasy like your 800-lb one) always went away when price was discussed. You ARE willing to pay what such work is worth, right? This can be from the high hundreds into the thousands of dollars, depending on what you want.

I don't know any bladesmiths who will work to a measured blueprint, either. It usually signifies a customer who is either unsatisfiable, uneducated, or both. As the Guru says, a dimensioned drawing perhaps, as long as you allow some wiggle room.

Most bladesmiths are kinda crusty when it comes to sword requests, based on many bad experiences with people seemingly unacquainted with the collective reality and the laws of physics, so don't let me put you off if you have a valid design. Just be aware that you may have a tough time convincing a *good* smith to take you up on your idea.
   Alan-L - Friday, 06/26/09 08:41:27 EDT
Gavainh and Thomas P.,

Thank you for your responses, this imput has helped me tremendously, as two-three heads are better than one. Mr.Thomas P. it is ironic that you mentioned that the tongs and rein clips give a vice grip effect as I read that vice-grips were actually invented by a blacksmith.

Thank you,
Mike
   Mike T. - Friday, 06/26/09 08:58:34 EDT
One can be an extremely skilled blacksmith and not be able to forge a decent blade at all it's very much a special field.

One can be a highly skilled bladesmith and not be a decent swordsmith as the design elements of swords are *different* than that of knives. many knives do not have distal taper and if they do it's usually even over the length---may not be on a sword! You never have to worry about blade harmonics in a knife but put a max instead of a node at the grip and you've made a sword that won't stay in your hand during use! (Not to mention I've seen swords made by knifemakers that had *slick* grips---the horror!)

So Michael can you describe the distal taper in your planned blade and where the harmonic nodes are and COP? If any of these terms are new to you you may have designed a SLO Sword Like Object rather than a sword.

And everybody please remember that custom work done by a highly skilled individual is ALWAYS more expensive than stuff churned out by a factory with massive economies of scale built in!

Thomas
   Thomas P - Friday, 06/26/09 11:41:25 EDT
The issue of distal taper applies to things like machetes, too. I once bought a simple machete made by the Collins company. It had a distal taper that made the flex of the blade uniform over its length despite the shape that was narrowest at the handle. It was a pleasure to use. I foolishly sold that one in a garage sale and have never found another machete made like that. If you want to wear yourself out, use a machete made by stamping it out of sheet metal with no regard for shape or taper.
   quenchcrack - Friday, 06/26/09 13:39:32 EDT
Machete taper. . I've never looked. However, they sell for very little in CR with most made in Europe by Solingen (Germany?). The blades are good, the handles molded on plastic. Locals manufacture very nice tooled leather sheaths which cost less than the Machete. Total less then $20 I think. We brought one home as a gift a few years ago. Next time I get a chance I will check the taper.
   - guru - Friday, 06/26/09 14:00:11 EDT
Nip,
On Bandsaw blades.
I have mine made at the local saw sharpening shop. They have bimetal blades good for wood or metal, custom made to length, tooth pitch, and width. They also have a vari pitch blade good for bronze. I have not tried any other blades as these work great and last quite a while.
Bart
   blackbart - Friday, 06/26/09 15:39:47 EDT
From what I can read W1 is very good for knife making, able to produce a keen edge. The only possible drawback is distortion upon quenching. Some of you who have worked with it, tell me how you quench it with a minimum of distortion.
Thanks Mike
   Mike T. - Friday, 06/26/09 18:51:08 EDT
W1 is a simple high carbon steel and if you make thin blades out of it, it will cool fast enough in warm oil to achieve a good hardness. I have compressed air quenched small wood carving knives to good hardness. If you must quench in water, quench the blade vertically and move it in a figure 8.
   quenchcrack - Friday, 06/26/09 19:20:39 EDT
Quenchcrack,

Thank you for the information.

Mike
   Mike T. - Friday, 06/26/09 20:08:07 EDT
Mike T. Water can be warmed to tepid/luke warm before quenching. It can be done by stirring the water with a hot, steel bar.
   - Frank Turley - Friday, 06/26/09 20:20:59 EDT
Mr. Turley,

Thank you for this info. I still have my notes you E-mailed me a good while back. I have worked in my shop quite a bit, but the summer heat here in N.E. Arkansas is murder, I may have to hold off on some of it for awhile. I made my first skinning knife out of 1095 looks good. Took me about a month to complete it, but I wanted everyhing to be right.
My next one will be with the W1.

Thank you,
Mike
   Mike T. - Friday, 06/26/09 20:46:06 EDT
"Mr.Thomas P. it is ironic that you mentioned that the tongs and rein clips give a vice grip effect as I read that vice-grips were actually invented by a blacksmith."

Don't know answer, but this is a response I give at a public demo. if my use of them is questioned: My great-great grandfather's last name was Grip and was a blacksmithing. His favorite saying a blacksmith could never have too many vises, so he named one of his sons Vise. Vise also became a blacksmith and name stamped all of his tools, so this is one handed down from him.

I knew a guy in Ohio who quipped his favorite blacksmithing uncle had the last name of Craftsman.
   Ken Scharabok - Friday, 06/26/09 22:11:16 EDT
http://www.asktooltalk.com/articles/toolhistory/vise-grip.php

However, when hearing the term of blacksmith remember at one time it also applied to mechanics and some machinists. For example, my birth certificate gives my father's occupation twice as "Blaksmith" (yes, misspelled). However, he had a small manufacturing plant making self-unloading silage chopping boxes (Forage Master in Allenton, WI).
   Ken Scharabok - Friday, 06/26/09 22:18:03 EDT
Hello Guru and Gurus in Waiting.
This has probably been answered sometime in the past (most questions here fit into that category, don't they?) but as I can't seem to find it...
I'm working on a piece of sculpture, intended for an exterior location. I am contemplating fabricating and forging it primarily of stainless (304 and/or 5052). It will be exposed to rainfall, but is not near the ocean and would not be subject to road salt spray. Were I to add copper or bronze elements, fastened mechanically, what would happen? If I were to braze them together, what would happen? The stainless elements would be no thinner than 1/4", the Cupric elements 3/16. I presume that the stainless would be the loser in any galvanic contest, but in this application, how long might that take, what exactly would happen structurally, and what would it look like. In the past, I have done similar things by using non-metallic bushings and fasteners to attach dis-similar metals, but this will not be practical here.
   Charlie Spademan - Saturday, 06/27/09 08:28:29 EDT
And, would 316 be better at the union with the copper?
   Charlie Spademan - Saturday, 06/27/09 08:31:43 EDT
Brain Fart: Sorry, I'm also contemplating making it entirely out of aluminum, hence the 5052 reference.
First coffee, then post
   Charlie Spademan - Saturday, 06/27/09 08:37:44 EDT
Charlie, have you thought about consulting a corrosion engineer? Seriously, they deal with a HUGE variety of corrosion problems involving dissimilar metals.
   quenchcrack - Saturday, 06/27/09 09:00:20 EDT
Has anyone heard of a Idaho Star Foundry power hammer #50. There is one for sale by my neighbor.What might it be worth?
   Steven Bronstein - Saturday, 06/27/09 15:22:58 EDT
Is there a similar site for farriers?
   philip in china - Saturday, 06/27/09 21:16:11 EDT
Charlie Spademan,

If you do the stainless/copper combination, you won't have much in the way of problems. If you use 316L stainless and alloy 65500 high-silicon bronze I doubt you would see any galvanic corrosion for decades, even down here in the tropical islands. If you get into a stainless with more carbon, or copper alloys that contain zinc, then things aren't as stable.

The aluminum and copper mix is a positively horrible one. Guys with aluminum boats have learned the hard way that you don't want to drop any old copper pennies in your bilge. That combination corrodes almost while you watch. I understand that's one of the reasons they had so many problems back in the sixties when they tried to switch to aluminum wiring - wherever it contacted copper there were problems almost immediately. I don't know how the 5052 would react with silicon bronze, but the price is too high to want to find out the hard way.

I'll bet that Ries Niemi can give you a pretty definitive answer to your question if he's watching.
   vicopper - Saturday, 06/27/09 21:31:25 EDT
What can you tell me about Arm and Hammer anvils?
I acquired one several years ago in exchange for some work and have been unable to find anyone in this area who has even heard of these.It has very little rebound,virtually no ring and seems to be made of cast iron.
There is a golf ball sized chip out of one edge of the face as well as numerous nicks and dings.
Were these actually made by Arm and Hammer?
Thanks for any help.
   Robert Watson - Saturday, 06/27/09 22:09:01 EDT
Thanks ViCopper, I appreciate your input! I think it was you who answered a similar question for me about a year ago, regarding studs I was welding onto copper house numbers. That also was a stainless/copper combination, though they were pretty well protected from the weather because of their placement and anchoring system. As for my consideration of aluminum for this project, it would definitely be my second choice. If I went that way I had no intention of introducing any other metal into the equation; I was not fully awake when I was composing my question and did not word it clearly. As for aluminum wiring, my understanding has been that the aluminum wire expands as it heats (from heavy current draw) and compresses under the binding screw on devices designed for copper wires. When it cools and contracts, the joint is no longer tight and the higher impedance at that point causes additional heating, etc.. The NEC specified devices especially for aluminum wiring that maintained tight contact with the wire through expansion and contraction cycles, generally using a spring like a common wire-nut. It has never occurred to me that galvanic issues may have been in play as well, but it makes sense
   Charlie Spademan - Saturday, 06/27/09 22:09:45 EDT
Philip,

www.horseshoes.com.

You go through a registration rigamarole.
   - Frank Turley - Saturday, 06/27/09 22:54:48 EDT
Vise-Grips a link from our Getting Started Article.
   - guru - Saturday, 06/27/09 23:11:04 EDT
Charlie. You are building a huge electrolytic cell. Condensation on metal is more of an issue than rain. If you use aluminum use NOTHING but aluminum including anchor bolts. Stainless is not so bad but you should stick to one material. If you want copper colored elements use paint such as gilders paste. They say its not paint but IT IS paint.
   - guru - Saturday, 06/27/09 23:17:42 EDT
On the road visiting friends. . . big forged gates tomorrow.
   - guru - Saturday, 06/27/09 23:20:15 EDT
CHarlie,

Yeah, the expansion/contraction was a big issue, probably the primary one, but the galvanic corrosion was also a factor, I'm sure. On the fixtures labeled for Cu/Al use, they specified that a conductive grease had to be used, which would prevent moisture from getting into the connection. That's my guess, anyway.

On ships down here, you see lots of stainless and bronze used together, with no visible problems, so I'm pretty sure you'd be okay with that combo.
   vicopper - Sunday, 06/28/09 00:09:59 EDT
Robert Watson,

You are correct, that anvil is cast iron, with a steel face plate. Similar to the Fisher Eagle anvils, but no where near the high quality that Fisher made.

There are two different Arm and Hammer anvils: the good ones, (made by the Columbus Anvil and Forging Company I believe), which are all tool steel and a premium-quality anvil, and the type you have, which is made by Vulcan from cast iron and steel and is a mediocre anvil on its best day.

Neither of the Arm and Hammer anvils had any connection with the Arm and Hammer baking soda people.
   vicopper - Sunday, 06/28/09 00:18:46 EDT
When I was in high school, I helped a friend fix the dome light on his truck. We used a piece of stranded aluminum wire I had for some reason, and ended with a splice under the carpet. We made the splice with a crimp connector that must have been made from tinned copper.

The fix didn't last six months. The carpet must have gotten damp, because when we pulled it up we found a corroded mess and no electrical connection at the splice anymore. Anyway, I learned first-hand that aluminum and copper don't mix (except in 2000-series aluminum alloys and in aluminum bronzes, of course).
   Mike BR - Sunday, 06/28/09 06:01:25 EDT
Shop Heat

I was reading the recent posts over in the Hammer-In, and thought this might be a better place to pose this question...
I am planning a new shop, and addition on an existing pole-barn. Here in Michigan, heating in the winter becomes an issue with many options. What are other folks doing to keep a shop useable when the temps get down below the comfort zone? I have considered a lot of different options, such as wood fired furnaces, radiant overhead (propane powered), and in-floor hot water. Economics are a factor, of course, but what would be the "ideal" shop heat?Any suggestions as to pros and cons would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

Dave
   Dave F - Sunday, 06/28/09 07:25:56 EDT
Dave F
I'm in Saskatchewan, it gets cool in the winter here as well. If I was building from scratch, I would probably go with in floor heat. Second choice radiant. Currently I have a wood burning stove. What I like about in floor heat is my feet are warm, and air temp can be lower. If your not in there almost daily I would consider radiant, but being bald on top I find my head gets hot. Consider a wood fired boiler for in floor heat. Don't forget to insulate between the slab and the ground. Let us know what route you go, and how it works out.
   JimG - Sunday, 06/28/09 09:17:10 EDT
In-floor heat could be a real pain if you need cut into the floor for a power hammer foundation. Or even just intall anchor bolts to secure a piece of equipment or a bench.
   Mike BR - Sunday, 06/28/09 09:55:22 EDT
Arm and Hammer: Vulcan anvils are a cast steel with a *thin* steel face and not much drop for the cutting plate. The have the arm and hammer cast so that it projects from the side of the anvil.

Arm and Hammer, made in Columbus Ohio, are a traditionally made anvil and of very good quality indeed.

The lack of ring indicates you have a vulcan most likely (or a badly damaged A&H!) I advise them for suburbia and other places where noise is an issue but Fisher is a quiet brand of anvils too and MUCH higher in quality!

Do not pay top price for a vulcan.

Thomas
   Thomas Powers - Sunday, 06/28/09 11:31:19 EDT
Answering my own question;
In researching, I found the following galvanic table:

http://www.eaa1000.av.org/technicl/corrosion/galvanic.htm

It lists Bronze 655 and passivated stainless 304 as #70 and #71 respectively, in ascending order of nobility; Perfect! Copper and non-passivated 316l are not a bad match, either
   Charlie Spademan - Sunday, 06/28/09 12:46:50 EDT
Thank you all for the response to my Arm and Hammer anvil questions.I definately have the Vulcan one.I thought the chip missing from the face was from abuse but on closer exam I believe it is a casting defect and was always present.

I have had numerous offers to buy this anvil but knowing what it is not I will keep it as it is useful for the tasks I do.

Thank you all again for the help!
   Robert Watson - Sunday, 06/28/09 13:26:34 EDT
Steve Bronstein:

Are you sure it says "Idaho" on it? Star Foundry made a really nice 50# hammer, I have one and I love it. As far as I know, they were only made in three places, those being Albert Lea, Minnisota; Mankato, MN; and for a short time in Texas when the foundry owner had them made there for a bit. The whole production seems to have been from around 1918 to around 1929 or so, they are not common.

Any 50# mechanical hammer in good running order is worth what you can get it for, up to around $1500-$3000 depending on the hammer. If it's not in perfect shape, the price drops precipitously. If it doesn't run because the frame is broken, it's worth whatever the scrap rate is.

Broken frames can be fixed, of course, but the cost of the fix is usually upwards of $1000 if you value your time.

The only problems the Star hammers I'm familiar with have are the joints between the bow spring ends and the toggle arms. These hammers are a bow spring linkage like a Champion, and the bushings tend to go fast. Mine has no bushings, for example. I keep them joints filled with heavy grease to keep the grit out and prevent further wear, on the advice of the previous owner. It worked for him for 25 years, so I haven't changed his system.

They do not have sow blocks, and the lower die dovetail is part of the cast frame.

They are light-duty hammers, equivalent to a Little Giant, but much better in my opinion. That may be because I have one, I don't know. (grin!)

I've seen two different guide systems on them, mine (which is a square-section ram running in V-ways in the frame on the back with a really nice art-deco-styled wraparound steel guide handling the front), and a more conventional T-slot guide with adjustible gibs. I don't know which is better.

They are set up for flat-belt drive with a wood block clutch, and mine provides very good control.

What does your neighbor want for it?
   Alan-L - Sunday, 06/28/09 13:26:41 EDT
In floor radiant heat is nice, but the thermal mass of the flor is a problem if You don't heat continuously.

If You heat the shop when You are working there and don't when You are not, the radiant gas burners above work well if the celing is high enough.
   - Dave Boyer - Sunday, 06/28/09 14:36:04 EDT
I will be trying my hand at forge welding soon. Sometimes when you read articles, you don't know how much credence to place in them. One article says you can weld at an orange heat another one says you can even weld at red heat if the metal is prepared and fluxed properly.
I didn't pay much attention to these articles until I looked at Centaur Forge's welding fluxes. They have a Cherry Heat welding flux that enables welding at lower temperatures. Have any of you used this flux ? Also, Mr. Dempsey, if I read your article on welding properly, you advise a percentage of florite for steels containing alloying elements ? If so, how much ? Can fluxes be purchased containing florite ?
   Mike T. - Sunday, 06/28/09 21:41:04 EDT
Mike T.
In a regular coal forge situation, the welding heat is a "near white color." I sometimes call it a yellow/white. There is a light welding heat, also called "sweating" in which there are no sparks being emitted. If a few incipient sparks do appear, that may be OK, but you don't want a big shower of them, or you'll be burning (oxidizing) the metal. When the metal turns the same color as the heart of the coke fire, it will disappear from view unless you move it. When it disappears, you have just entered a welding heat. Give a few seconds more of blast, depending of the size of the workpiece. Bring it out and weld. Use three or four relatively light blows to start; then hit harder once you have cohesion.

Cherry Heat, Climax, and E-Z were marketing names made up by the old Anti-Borax Company. If you think about it, in combination, they all have a (ahem) sexual connotation. Anyway, it's all promo and hype. And of course, they called it the Anti-Borax Company, because they wanted you to buy their compounds!
   - Frank Turley - Sunday, 06/28/09 23:55:06 EDT
Mr. Turley,

Thanks, I will not waste my money on it. I appreciate everyone on this board.

Mike
   Mike T. - Monday, 06/29/09 00:57:28 EDT
Florite
Sometimes used in stainless welding and other heat treating chemicals and products may be purchased from:
rosemillcom.host-manager.com (Rose Mill company)
They do have on line sales, and sell true anhydrous Borax, and other products
I've heard nasty comments about the hazards of using Florite for forge welding. My experience in chemistry suggests that it is indeed better left to experts who have serious monetary motives for welding stainless steel.
   Charlotte - Monday, 06/29/09 08:16:53 EDT
Charlotte,

Thanks for the site, I will check it out. If I use the florite, I will rig up a mask.

   Mike T. - Monday, 06/29/09 08:42:27 EDT
Mike it is possible to get a solid phase weld at subzero temperatures *IF* all the other factors are perfect: cleanliness, high pressure, surfaces perfectly match.

Look up vacuum welding and explosive welding as methods that get around the heat issue by maxing out other factors.

I have seen Billy Merritt (sp) weld at temps I would consider a bit low to forge at. However adding more heat is usually the easiest way to get from "won't weld" to "will weld"

Thomas
   Thomas P - Monday, 06/29/09 10:17:29 EDT
Thomas P.

Thank you, I was driving down the highway one time and had a wheel bearing to over heat and lock up. The heat and pressure welded the lug nuts to the wheel. I had to get a chisel and cut them off. I have seen programs on television where metal parts were welded by spinning them
together at a high rate of speed, and the friction would weld them together.
   Mike T. - Monday, 06/29/09 11:06:01 EDT
RE: forge welding--Once I spent a very interesting hour or so watching Mike, the blacksmith from Guinda, CA, making (throwing tomahawks?) at the county fair. He would hot cut an old flat rasp, he had lengths of mild steel cut to length, fold the mild steel over to make the eye, sandwich the rasp steel within the folded over mild steel, heat and flux and weld. Lots of sparks, and another successful forge weld, shape the head and go to the next one.

It inspired me to go try forge welding some mild steel together, failed mizerably, had enough heat to burn the steel. Is there something "better" about welding mild steel to tool steel?
   - David Hughes - Monday, 06/29/09 11:14:33 EDT
David,
No. In fact, one might pay more attention when welding tool steel (high carbon), because the extra carbon content causes the metal to crack and crumble if a sparking heat is reached. Try to do it all with a light welding heat; no sparks.
   - Frank Turley - Monday, 06/29/09 13:59:24 EDT
To add to what Frank said, the high carbon steel welds at a slightly lower heat that the mild steel. This CAN make it easier to weld, but it can also cause problems. Once carbon migration begins, the welds get easier, but you have to make that first weld before the carbon can start to equalize over the weld boundary. It's always something, isn't it?

If you were hot enough to burn the mild, you had more than enough heat to weld. You may have hed an oxidizing fire, though, and that will ruin a weld every time.
   Alan-L - Monday, 06/29/09 14:03:46 EDT
Fluxes - ANTI-Borax: A rose by any other name would smell as sweet . . .

These fluxes are primarily boric acid but all contain borax in varying percentages. In the end they are all boron fluxes. I suspect the only advantage is anhydrous borax is more expensive than regular hydrated borax and since it does not stay in the dehydrated state the fluxes may be more stable.

Fluorite is used in foundry operations for fluxing and is found in stainless are welding rods. The percentages I have heard for addition to borax are about 10% max.

Commercial forge welding fluxes often contain powdered iron or iron chips. You DO NOT want to use this for laminating steel because it contaminates the billet in unpredictable ways. The added iron can lower the welding temperature by melting in the flux and acting a "glue" in the forge weld. It does not actually lower the possible welding temperature BUT it does make it easier to weld at a lower temperature.
   - guru - Monday, 06/29/09 16:55:30 EDT
Strickly my experience, but the anhydrous does not rehydrate that quickly. Its advantage is that it does not require you to boil off the water before it does its job thus it cools your steel less. Because it doesn't swell as it boils of water less fall off into your fire so less mess in a gas forge. I generally use an old pot of to get rid of half of the water by heating 20 mule team in the oven. I cap that up in a glass jar and only take out a cup or so at a time.
I'm told that 20 mule team has and anticaking agent in it, that can show up in a welded billet. I don't know.
I have a can on anhydrous that I keep in a zip lock bag for those times when I really want to add some flux at almost the last moment.

With mild steel in a coal fire I cann't see that any of this makes much difference. It might for welding damascus billets that you are planning to finish and sell for serious money.
   Charlotte - Monday, 06/29/09 23:18:47 EDT
ThomasP, Billy is the forge master of the Southern Indiana Meteor Mashers, our IBA satalitte group. He regularly welds using a hammer HANDLE to make the weld, and almost always at temps the look too cool to get a weld, and I have never seen him miss a weld. He has been welding slices of meteor into his blades lately.
He taught Larry Zeoller to weld tomahawks from horse shoe rasps and Larry taught me. I have been playing with the horseshoe rasps, making tomahawks and axes, and I have been welding at what looks a too cool temp and mostly getting good welds.
   ptree - Tuesday, 06/30/09 06:45:09 EDT
Thanks to all who contributed to the question about shop heating! I will let you know how the project turns out. Dave
   Dave F - Tuesday, 06/30/09 08:07:38 EDT
The propane forge in the shop I use doesn't go higher than a high (light) orange. However, the guy I bought it from (who built it) said he used it on a regular basis for do Damascus-pattern billets and the forge, when bought, showed signs of it. I know if I have several pieces in it, they touch and they are left in too long them come out slightly stuck together. I've twice melted sections of items placed in it I forgot about and left in way to long.
   Ken Scharabok - Tuesday, 06/30/09 12:12:44 EDT
My copy of AIA was lent to me, I had to return it a few months ago. My "uncle" Bob just gifted me another anvil. It's in nice condition, looks hardly used. Short cutting table, clean weld top plate 1/4", horn tip blunted. I haven't gotten it home yet to clean it up any, but it says "AMERICAN WROUGHT" with a horsehoe between the words, inside the horseshoe it says "TRADE MARK". Under the whole makers mark is the weight "108". I haven't weighed it yet, but it is definitely bigger than my 100 pound Wilkinson. Hundredweight would put it at 132 pounds? Wish I had that AIA book right now.
   - Nippulini - Tuesday, 06/30/09 15:00:42 EDT
Sorry... 120 pounds.
   - Nippulini - Tuesday, 06/30/09 15:11:56 EDT
American Wrought Anvil Nip, If American made it would not be marked in Hundred weights. It will be pounds but could have been misread.

p.289 AIA, List of Hay-Budden private branded anvils.
American Wrought, Horse Shoe Brand, Montgomery Ward Catalog, 1895, S?N 932?, (1894).
You have a winner. The long slender pattern fooled you into thinking it was heavier than the stout better to forge on per pound Wilkinson.
   - guru - Tuesday, 06/30/09 16:17:48 EDT
Shop heating is a subject I've not considered much. Keeping cool and having enough ventilation was most of the problem. However, I've run a part time shop so long working in the winter has not been one of my considerations. MOVING somewhere where winter doesn't exist is the long term plan for me. . .

We have heated with wood, oil and electric heat pump. All have their pros and cons and their costs. Wood is only cheaper if it is free or nearly free. Cutting, hauling, feeding. . . all costs. Oil is probably the cheapest to install and maintain long term. Heat pumps are more efficient energy users but they have become expensive to maintain requiring complete system replacement about every 10 years. When the equipment and maintenance costs are factored in heat pumps are not a good buy. SO, anything you do costs.

Static systems are the most cost effective. Additional insulation pays for itself in a decade no matter how much you add. If you can insulate heavy masses from the outside (insulation outside a masonry wall or chimney) this acts as a "thermal flywheel" holding heat OR absorbing it to help cool.

Static solar includes properly placed windows with shading in the summer. However, the classic overhanging roof has been found to be problematic. While they work to shade the window in summer they can be a big "cooling fin" in the winter dissipating valuable warmth. Good modern design isolates these from the building proper.

Efficient architectural design is a mix of art and engineering. It starts with a site study, geographic layout, solar gain, average temperatures, rain. . . all the environmental aspects. The final design must include goals and budget. Budget is sadly the deciding factor in too many cases. Thus the cost of heating and cooling is higher and over the long term the building much less efficient. IF we were thinking of generations of use and did not want to burden our grand children with lousy buildings we would build better.
   - guru - Tuesday, 06/30/09 16:22:19 EDT
So, when I get it home and clean it up, where should I look for serial numbers?
   - Nippulini - Tuesday, 06/30/09 17:30:56 EDT
Nip, Maybe on the side opposite the trademark. I have one Hey Bud like that.
   - Frank Turley - Tuesday, 06/30/09 18:30:30 EDT
Nip, Maybe on the side opposite the trademark. I have one Hey Bud like that.
   - Frank Turley - Tuesday, 06/30/09 18:31:13 EDT
There's nothing on the working side of the anvil. I've heard talk here of numbers being located on the feet or bottom. I'll post pics when I can.
   - Nippulini - Tuesday, 06/30/09 18:53:30 EDT
Just checked the horn side foot. There's some numbers, leading 5 and others can't read (yet). There's a strange slot in the center of the feet, horn side. About 1/8" x 1". Never saw that before on an anvil. There is no corresponding slot on the heel side, so I am at a loss. Maybe an odd handling hole? Sorry for the rampant posting today, but getting a new anvil is exciting!
   - Nippulini - Tuesday, 06/30/09 19:00:07 EDT
Guru, I have a super insulated, passive solar home. Built it 24 years ago. I have to agree that insulation pays. I have the large overhang roof, and in my case it is not a cooling fin. I love the big 42" overhang, as I can leave the windows open in most rain storms and never get a drop in the awning style windows. Those windows are riple glazed, with selective emmisivity film. The walls are R-30, the roof R-60, and the part of the house with a crawl is R-48 under the floor. The 1000 square feet of concrete floor that thesun hits is 6" min thick, 18" in places and insulated from the earth. That is the Thermal Mass. Even in the summer we almost never run air conditioning. The thermal mass sucks up any heat that sneaks in during the day and when it is cooler at night we open up and run a 1/4Hp whole haouse fan, rejecting the heat from the mass.
Solar heating in our region is problamatic. Not enough good sunny days, and we do enjoy the view from all those windows so we don't cover with insulating means when the sun is not bright. So we supplament with an outside wood heater.
If I had it to do again, I would skip the solar heat, but definetly super insulate.
   ptree - Tuesday, 06/30/09 19:56:50 EDT
Nip, I've seen that little slot in some Hay-Buddens. I suspect it is for some unknown clamping fixture, probably for grinding but it could have served other purposes.

Those are serial numbers on the feet but also inspectors or crew marks.
   - guru - Tuesday, 06/30/09 20:54:03 EDT
Passive Systems with low powered assist such as the fan you speak off should be part of every home. Other more sophisticated systems should be available but lack of interest in conservation has thwarted their economic production. In the 1970's the research was conclusive on the cost savings of super insulation but we ignored it and went the cheap route of super tight and thus unhealthy buildings and homes. You gain as much or more with tight windows and doors as with super insulation.

Smart low impact active systems could greatly improve building efficiency. Automatic shutters, vents and fans coupled to a smart system that reacts in advance of daily and seasonal changes. Most systems turn on fans or equipment after environmental changes are detected. We can do better, and should.

   - guru - Tuesday, 06/30/09 22:47:41 EDT
THERMAL MASS - SHOP

If you fill your shop with enough old tools, machine and/or hand, it can add a lot of thermal mass due to the large amount of steel and cast iron, or at least it does in Rube Miller’s shop. I was there about two weeks ago, and despite the summer heat, it was quite cool! I mentioned this to him, and he said it stays that way till September, (gradually warming). I was considering why this was, and reached over to touch a lathe – the steel was cold! The shop is partially below grade with a second level above, but, really, he’s got so much old heavy-duty machines that the inside area is probably at least 25 per-cent solid iron & steel. The outside is surrounded with more: Steam traction engines, steam shovel, old saws, and anything else you could imagine. I would think that all this keeps it warm in early winter, too. I can’t estimate the size of this shop because I can’t see the walls, or indication thereof. nrn
   Dave Leppo - Wednesday, 07/01/09 07:20:01 EDT
My passive solar, super insulated house has a semi tight air infiltration system. The windows and doors seal tight. The entrance doors have refrigerator type magnetic seals. The windows are awning type that crank closed and compress gaskets. A sliding double hung window will never stay tight as there is no compression after the seals take a set.
The swinging atrium door at the main entrance is wood and so plain gaskets, but it has a steel storm door.
When I was building the house many told me I was crazy to install a poly vapor barrier. Was not well know then. The vapor barrier is NOT sealed at every joint and therefore allows some little infiltration air, but this avoided sick house issues.
I also used foam insulation panels as sheeting, and these had aluminum reflective facings on both sides to stop radiation of heat. The tight fit of these panels also helped with infiltration of air. The corners of the house do not have plywood sheeting, as that is where the need is most of insulation (two cold walls). My system uses inletted 1 x 4 boards on diagonal in the 2 x 6 studs(then also un-heard of).
The insulation levels and vapor barrier led many to believe I would have condensation in the insulation especially in the roof. I had done the home work and found that the level of roof venting above the insulation had been increased by the Dept. of Ag, the folks that write that stuff for the feds by 600%, and was under consideration for another increase. So I installed roof venting at about 1000% of what was then standard. After I had reason to look into the roof space post tree damage, I saw the beginnings of some mold on the roof deck and added another 300%. I had reason to look again about 4 years after that and all good.
My system depends on a $20 in/out therometer, and a human to open windows and turn on the fan or reverse. Works.
I do supplament the heat in the winter, and am maintaining 72F in the day, 65F night time on 3000 sq feet, and my cost for the mostly bought fuel, total is about $300 a year. That total cost includes gas to haul. I do live in a wood rich environment. I do use an outdoor woodburner. It is an EPA stage II approved unit, that makes almost no smoke or particulate compared to the early models that the Guru so hates. Uses about 40% less wood as well, as it reburns the smoke(wasted energy) to get to the low emission levels.
There are many ways to save energy in a house, especially when you build from scratch. Retrofits in older, low insulation level, poor window type houses is much harder.
Retrofit active solar is not ever going to pay in about 90% of this country. Passive solar pretty much only works when built in from scratch.
   ptree - Wednesday, 07/01/09 07:37:09 EDT
More on the American Wrought anvil... after getting it home last night I immediately placed it on a stump and broke out the wire brush wheel. The trademark is perfect, I will fill it in with white paint for the pictures. The foot mark reads 573. After brushing the dirt and rust off the top, I found the face to be severely pitted. :( No problem, I can dress it up but I know it will be a long arduous job.

Hey Ptree, see if you can jimmy up a solar powered forge.
   - Nippulini - Wednesday, 07/01/09 08:30:08 EDT
The sad part of the insulation issues is that it was all proven and recommended over 30 years ago and they are still making inefficient poorly built houses. When you buy a half million dollar house today you are getting 1960's construction methods using the cheapest 1990's materials. They are big and poorly built. Then the folks that can least afford it, those that buy modular homes are getting even less. Walls and ceilings with only 2-3/4" space for insulation. . .

Imagine the total savings if every home built in the last 30 years had been properly built to at least the 10 year pay-back insulation levels. . . Owners would be better off, the country would be better off.
   - guru - Wednesday, 07/01/09 09:41:43 EDT
One problem is that people have gotten away from regular "chores" once a standard part of living. So houses are designed to be "maintenance free" and then have catastrophically system failures.

I have no problem opening windows at night and closing them and the blinds in the morning and using external cooling. My wife prefers to run the swamp cooler 24x7 to doing a 5 minute chore twice a day.

Our passive solar house is great in the wintertime, we have a woodstove for back up and burn way too much wood as we enjoy watching the fire through the ceramic window on the woodstove. During a cold winter we will go through about US$150 of wood---so that's our total heat cost for a winter, the rest of it being free thermonuclear energy. and yes our outside walls are 2x6 to allow for greater insulation.

Thomas
   Thomas P - Wednesday, 07/01/09 11:20:44 EDT
One side benefit of the heavier insulation in the new house (after 30 years in the 1924 plaster and lather/clapboard/uninsulated walled old farmhouse) is just how quiet things are. I mean, it's quiet in the country; but when you're buttoned up inside you can't hear the naval guns testing at Dahlgren (at least the lighter ones); the helicopter flyovers, the drag races, the over-speakered local kids' cars, the drag races, the neighbor's signal cannon, hunters, etc. About the only sound that routinely penetrates is thunder!

Me, I like to be outside, and try to keep the windows open well into summer. The wif, however, loves her HVAC, and uses the dog-pant method to determmine when to put it on. ("When the dog starts panting, it's too hot! You wouldn't want the dog to suffer; would you?")

Sunny and warm on the banks of the Potomac; possible T-storms this afternoon. I'm off to visit the Smithsonian Folklife Festival on the Mall ( http://www.festival.si.edu/ ) for my lunchtime trip. I'm sure the Welsh will have a blacksmith there.
   Bruce Blackistone (Atli) - Wednesday, 07/01/09 11:31:33 EDT
Bruce, I too noticed the great reduction is noise level when buttoned up. In the summer, when buttoned up, we can hear thunder, but muted. Occasionally in a real clousd burst, we acn hear the rain on the roof through all that insulation, but not often.
Back when the Ky AFNG flew Rf-4's, they made approachs over our house at about 500', with the boundary air on and lots of throttle. We could hear them a bit when buttoned up, extremely well when open!
They fly C-130's now, and when buttoned up no notice, open I know they are going by, but not bad.
   ptree - Wednesday, 07/01/09 13:12:28 EDT
Folklife Festival Report:

It took me all of 60 seconds to find the blacksmith setup in the "Wales" area; she's Iona McLaggan from Bridgend in S. Wales. Very nice to talk to; very patient with the touristas, and a very sure hand. We had a delightful conversation, part of which went something like: "Anvilfire eh? Which one are you?" ;-)

I'll try to catch her tomorrow before I shove-off for Baltimore, and chat some more. I've taken some nice pictures, but I'm using film, so it may be a while.

The rest of the arts and crafts and folkways in the Welsh part of the festival is very nice; with boat building, slating, stone carving, traditional building techniques, cooking, bookbinding, animation, and a slew of other items of interest. Alas I had no time for the music (yet), in any of the three sections of the festival.

Backt'work!
   Bruce Blackistone (Atli) - Wednesday, 07/01/09 14:09:00 EDT
Folklife Festival Report:

It took me all of 60 seconds to find the blacksmith setup in the "Wales" area; she's Iona McLaggan from Bridgend in S. Wales. Very nice to talk to; very patient with the touristas, and a very sure hand. We had a delightful conversation, part of which went something like: "Anvilfire eh? Which one are you?" ;-)

I'll try to catch her tomorrow before I shove-off for Baltimore, and chat some more. I've taken some nice pictures, but I'm using film, so it may be a while.

The rest of the arts and crafts and folkways in the Welsh part of the festival is very nice; with boat building, slating, stone carving, traditional building techniques, cooking, bookbinding, animation, and a slew of other items of interest. Alas I had no time for the music (yet), in any of the three sections of the festival.

Backt'work!
   Bruce Blackistone (Atli) - Wednesday, 07/01/09 14:12:20 EDT
Folklife festival Report contd.

Iona's web site: http://www.ionamclaggan.co.uk/
   Bruce Blackistone (Atli) - Wednesday, 07/01/09 14:13:05 EDT
Nippulini: You have one of the earliest anvils made by Hay-Budden. According to AIA, likely 1892. There is a photograph of one on page 290 of AIA and it also appears to have a three-digit serial number. An ad for the brand name under it dates to 1894-95.
   Ken Scharabok - Thursday, 07/02/09 00:10:58 EDT
Nippulini, I know you jest about a solar forge, but I have been toying with the idea myself. I have access to an old satellite dish about 10 feet in diameter, and if I line it with reflective material.....look out! Some of the info I have indicates possible temps as high as 3000F at the focal point. Not very practical, I admit, but fun!
   Dave F - Thursday, 07/02/09 08:05:59 EDT
I just looked at your brake drum forge plan and will use some thoughts from that. I add the following: For air, I usually use vacuum cleaners modified as required and regulated a dimmer switch which I have built inito an extension box. Squirrel cage blowers never seem to exert enough pressure to do the job. Also, using 2" plumbing fixtures, a flange on a short nipple can be tack welded to a section of a discarded 20lb propane tank and remain lighter and readily removable and replacable...naturally not to be attempted by anyone not absolutely sure of the safety requirements of undertaking such a project. Scrounging mechanical parts can lead one to small gears that can be attached to a rod that can pass through the 3 way fitting and make a most adequate grate / clinker breaker. I can offer more details if required.
   DPK - Thursday, 07/02/09 08:18:52 EDT
Living in NM I looked hard into building a solar forge based on an old Mother Earth News array made from 1' sq mirror tiles that even had a sun following circuit.

Unfortunately the very common very high winds soon convinced me that it would not last long enough to be useful. I was going to feed the primary focus through a slot in a steel box full of refractory to make the forge part.

Thomas
   Thomas P - Thursday, 07/02/09 10:37:05 EDT
I just acquired an assortment of steel bars and large flats from an old logging HQ site. Most of it has sat out in the weather for 50+ years and is a bit pitted and rusted on the surface. I've cut the ends off some of the 2" and 3" bars with a band saw and the steel below the surface is very nice. How much do I need to clear the surface rust off before heating some of this stuff up and shaping it? I've been told that most of the rust will burn/flake off during heating and what doesn't, won't do any harm. It sounds good, but I'm not sure I trust that advise.
   Ross - Thursday, 07/02/09 12:42:38 EDT
Ross, The advise you were given is correct. However, it depends on the final result you desire and how much you forge the steel. IF the steel is heavily worked you will never know there was any corrosion. If lightly worked or not worked all over the roughness will still show. Many smiths store old rusted steel for jobs were they need to match old materials OR are looking for a rustic surface.
   - guru - Thursday, 07/02/09 13:33:23 EDT
Ross; I had a job once where I wanted to be sure that the customer and I were using the same language to mean the same things. So I forged a minature of the item and as it was meant to be discarded I used the worst piece of steel I had to hand---had been drug out of a manure pile I believe.

It was *EXACTLY* what she wanted terribly pitted surface, rough forged, etc. Sigh.

"The customer's money is always green"

Thomas
   Thomas P - Thursday, 07/02/09 14:50:24 EDT
RE: Solar Forge--Somewhere back in my befuddled younger years I read a frensel (?) lens [the flat lens you often see used as book page magnifiers] would concentrate the sun's rays enough to enamel metal (i.e., fired enamel). Recently got one out of a scrap pile, need welding goggles to see what I am doing. Sets paper on fire easy enough.
   - David Hughes - Thursday, 07/02/09 15:37:24 EDT
RE: Solar forge--Back in my younger wicked days I read that a frensel (?) lens [the flat lens that you often see as book page magnifiers] would concentrate the sun's rays enough to fire enamal on metal. Recently pulled one out of a scrap pile, need welding goggles to see what you are doing, sets paper on fire easily enough.
   - David Hughes - Thursday, 07/02/09 15:40:47 EDT
Sorry about double post, the first time it acted like it had indigestion and barfed it out into the ether. Redone, and then both showed up
   - David Hughes - Thursday, 07/02/09 15:44:46 EDT
Fresnel lense: I got one from Edmund Scientific when I was a kid, never used it, but can't find it. I DID find "Fun With Fresnel Lenses" copyright 1971, a little project book I got with it for an additional $.75.
   - Dave Boyer - Thursday, 07/02/09 20:22:54 EDT
Somewhere in the dim memories of my youth I remember a photo in an old general science book. It was of a French installation of mirrors used to melt a high temperature metal (platinum or tungsten). It was built in a natural amphitheater and had some sort of mechanical tracking device for the mirrors.
   - guru - Thursday, 07/02/09 21:18:19 EDT
Rusty Steel: Thanks for expanding my perspective on this old steel. It sounds like, rather than ensuring the pitted surface is hidden and kept from having any effect on the substrate metal, it may be regarded and used as an attribute… something to be preserved as is and stored for the right project.
The machinist in me wants to trim all of the ‘bark’ off every piece of stock. You’ve given the artist’s imagination something to play with.

I appreciate it.
   Ross - Thursday, 07/02/09 21:55:21 EDT
Ross, On much blacksmith work a consistent finish is where the difficulty lies. Even the finest forged work has a texture difficult to match. Good hot roll is sufficient on some work. On others it requires forging all over. Cold finished steel is only suitable if the work is to be finished all over.

On flat work where a heated surface is to be matched rusted steel is good. Smiths also create purposely textured steel using various methods. Heating and forging scale into the surface makes a smooth even finish. Heating then breaking up the scale then heating again to remelt the scale and create more in between. This is then cleaned by wire brushing. The results can be varied by the number of steps, how hot, hammering between heats.

For heavy texturing on a significant amount of work a power hammer is used. This can be done with plain or textured dies of various types.

Lots of choices.
   - guru - Friday, 07/03/09 00:22:11 EDT
Thomas, you used "rot" iron for a prototype?
   JimG - Friday, 07/03/09 09:30:02 EDT
One of my friends at work gave me a bunch of cabinet hardware consisting of cast fittings. I assume that they are "pot metal" and primarily zinc. Now, the question that has occurred to me is if I can use them, in scrap pieces, for brass casting to replace some of the zinc that burns off; or is the metal too mongrel of a mix?
   Bruce Blackistone (Atli) - Friday, 07/03/09 21:54:03 EDT
Bruce,

I looked up Zamak, which I think is a common casting alloy (though I could be wrong). It's 4% aluminum. That's not *necessarily* bad in a copper ally -- aluminum bronze has a higher aluminum content. But aluminum's probably not an intended constitutent of your brass ally, and I'd be a little worried about getting unexpected results if it were added.
   Mike BR - Friday, 07/03/09 22:29:20 EDT
Atli,

The problem is, they're "primarily zinc", not pure zinc. They also add antimony to that stuff to make it fill the mold better, and other stuff that you may not want in your brass castings. I've never had any real issues with zinc depletion in casting brass until you've melted the same stuff more than once or twice.
   vicopper - Saturday, 07/04/09 08:03:45 EDT
Jim it was *not* real wrought iron just highly corroded mild steel. Turns out that that person wanted my *worst* work and not my best; almost ashamed to put my maek on that project.

Thomas
   Thomas Powers - Saturday, 07/04/09 16:46:45 EDT
Thomas,

Never be ashamed to put your mark on work like that - I put your mark on all my bad stuff. (grin)
   vicopper - Saturday, 07/04/09 17:08:54 EDT
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