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Off Subject : Iam not a blacksmith nor even close.Trying to find an alternate product to move exhaust temp through pipe and not radiate and stumbled across this product ITC 213 and 100 Ht looks like it may work for my application but would like a little input from some one who has used it and knows more about it.
Sorry for busting in
   R.E. - Thursday, 02/28/13 22:30:22 EST
ITC Products :
R.E. ITC products are not insulators they are high temperature coatings and Infrared reflectants. To reduce the exterior temperature of a pipe they must be applied on the inside to keep the heat in.

ITC-213 is for use on metals to protect them from oxidation and to act as a primer for other ITC coatings. It can be used inside and outside of the pipe. For external heat reduction ITC-100HT would need to be applied over ITC-213 INSIDE the pipe.

ITC-213 should be applied very thin. It can air dry or be force dried with heat. ITC-100HT is applied a bit thicker sufficient to make an even coating (approximately 0.015")

The problem with using IR reflectants is that sooting reduces their effectiveness. In exhaust systems sooting is minimal in the hottest part of the pipe but can be significant throughout the length when cold. Soot burns off but fuel additives do not. I'm not familiar with deposits in diesel systems but in gasoline engines it is significant.

Lots of R&D. . .
   - guru - Friday, 03/01/13 00:44:40 EST
Comment Heat treating : Dear Colleagues,

Collector ignorance is well stated. I've found fakes in preColumbian artifacts (burned & kiln baked), as well as good looking forgeries of blades. If you are serious about collecting & DO NOT have a lot of $$$, please make sure to do your homework. Museum collections are good places to start. you will get a sense of what the objects of your desire look like, the materials used to make them, et. al. Now to knife making. I was wondering if anyone ever heat treated a big blade in an oven> it would be along the lines Goddard does with smaller blades, that being to heat them to 400 F for 1 hour, allow them to cool, then reheat two more times following the same process. By the way, many thanks for the posts of my other questions in this same vein.
   Jon G. - Friday, 03/01/13 13:07:34 EST
Forge Welding Flux : I have found the following formula for a "high grade" steel welding flux in two places. A blacksmithing book and Scientific American.

Does anyone know how well this works?

Since I don't do much welding is the sand necessary?

I've been told sand is an excellent flux but very difficult to remove. ??

What happens if you only have "nasty" welding sand? (& what's the difference?)

copperas, saltpeter, common salt, black oxide of manganese, prussiate of potash, and "nice welding sand" (silicate).
   - Rudy - Friday, 03/01/13 13:38:11 EST
Oven heat treating : Jon G,

Lots of knife makers heat treat big blades in old kitchen ovens. Those who are more serious about it use a separate thermocouple to determine the true heat and do not rely on the oven thermostat. The really serious ones use a dedicated oven for heat treating, one that is computer controlled to maintain specific gradients and heats. A kitchen oven tends to be something of an averaging process; that is, if it is set for 400° it may heat up to as much as 475° and shut off until it drops to as low as 350° before it kicks on again. In thin blade sections this could be less than optimum, so dedicated heat treating kiln is better.
   Rich Waugh - Friday, 03/01/13 13:43:43 EST
Rudy, straight 20 Mule Team Borax works well for me, Larry Zoeller makes an improved Borax based flux that is the best I have tried and Billy Merrit, says the best he has used.
   ptree - Friday, 03/01/13 13:45:14 EST
Flux : Rudy,

Plain old borax works fine for me most of the time. When stuff gets tricky, I use a flux that is borax, boric acid and about 10% sodium fluorite. That will glue pretty much anything.
   Rich Waugh - Friday, 03/01/13 13:46:47 EST
Flux : Rudy, None of the ingredients in this flux is currently used in any commercial flux that I know of. The copper and manganese make no sense at all. Then there is the matter of the sand. There are as many sands as there are minerals. Over time they tend to break down until mostly silicates are left but it is difficult to tell.

I've seen sand and red clay (dirt) used to weld but do not recommend either.
   - guru - Friday, 03/01/13 15:08:52 EST
Pre-Columbian fakes :
In Costa Rica I've seen the real Indian pottery next to modern fakes in little road side shops and its VERY difficult to tell one from the other. EXCEPT, the sellers will sell you the fakes but not the real pieces. . The up side to these is they cost little, are everywhere and can be bought with gift shop tags to avoid problems at customs. They are very close to the originals due to being made by descendants of the original makers using the same materials and techniques.

There are Pre-Columbian relics all over Cost Rica. Almost every farmer has a few displayed on shelves that were found in the fields when they were tilled. I've seen little clay pipes, pottery, pumice mortars and a big carved and decorated alligator sitting on a farmers front porch.

It is sad to see historical items leave their home country but it is a continuing process. Just look at the flood of antique anvils coming into the US.
   - guru - Friday, 03/01/13 15:34:59 EST
R.E. : You can get woven insulation made for insulating exhaust systems at speed shops. You wet it to put it on, and it dries/bakes when the system heats up. I used it on the hot section of My marine diesel exhaust, but it is made for on headers, which get much hotter.
   - Dave Boyer - Friday, 03/01/13 21:10:45 EST
If I remember my college physics -- it *has* been a while -- a less reflective surface absorbs *and emits* less IR. But then, an exhaust pipe that radiated less IR would run hotter, and would therefore convect more heat to its surroundings. Probably not a good thing in an engine compartment.
   Mike BR - Saturday, 03/02/13 08:22:00 EST
Come to think of it, I don't think a reflective coating *inside* an exhaust pipe would do much. I guess particles in diesel exhaust might radiate some heat, and a coating might reflect some of that back into the particles.

But we usually think of gasses as transparent to IR. I thing that means that any IR inside the pipe could only be absorbed by the walls. A reflective coating might make the IR bounce around inside longer, but eventually it would be absorbed -- there's nowhere else for it to go.
   Mike BR - Saturday, 03/02/13 15:02:52 EST
Value and Info on an Anvil : Hello, I purchased an anvil that is marked Sweden and has a teardrop or small horn image above the Sweden word. Then also reads 156 lbs and looks like the word 1RAG.? That is all I can read. It has one horn and sharp edges on heel and top. A little rust that is just surface rust but otherwise appears in great shape. I assume this is Cast Steel and could you please give me a value and any more information you wouldn't mind sharing. Thanks so much in advance!
   Lori - Saturday, 03/02/13 17:01:57 EST
Anvil :
Lori, Good Swedish anvils are selling for $2 to $10/lb. depending on location, condition and the parties involved.

I am always suspicious of old anvils that have pristine edges. This usually means the anvil has been repaired by welding, machined down, or both. I personally would rather have an anvil with rough edges than one that has been repaired, so to me the value is zero. But there are many buyers with more money than sense who will over pay for a repaired anvil.

There are quite a few old anvils that have seen little or no use and are in mint condition but it takes close examination by an expert to tell an anvil has been repaired. These anvils are worth whatever the current market price is for new anvils - sometimes more.
   - guru - Sunday, 03/03/13 12:11:00 EST
Forge welding : I have searched the web from top to bottom and have come up with the following conclusion: there are as many attempted explanations af forge welding as there are really bad smiths. I am by no means a professional smith, but I would REALLY like to learn to weld. I can shape and bend steel with the best of them, but forge welding eludes me. Is there a site anywhere that members know of that gives a clear concise demonstration of forge welding without the prerequisite ten seconds off screen action where the forge weld "magic" takes place? I have seen welding heat described as anything between red to pure white, and I have burned dozens of bags of coal in an attempt to weld, but all I get is failure after failure. Sign me frustrated.
   North - Sunday, 03/03/13 15:11:17 EST
North,

I'm sure folks with much more experience then I will weigh in, but I'm afraid your question is about like asking for a clearer description of how to ride a bicycle. In the end, you just have to get a feel for it.

Hopefully you're starting with a faggot weld, where the surfaces you are trying to join are already held together when they are in the fire. This saves a lot of fumbling when between fire and weld, and I think it also helps protect the surfaces from cooling and oxidation.

A smith I greatly respect says "one spark, sir" when someone's heating a piece he plans to weld. Some can weld at lower temperatures (and they may be necessary for some alloys), but the starting point is as hot as you can get it without burning.
   Mike BR - Sunday, 03/03/13 16:10:53 EST
Norths Problems : Hi Mike. One of the questions I am struggling with is how to find that fine line between welding heat and a burnt away junk of metal. Some say a few sparks, some say full sparkler effect, some say if you see a sparked the metal is already burnt. The issue Im seeing is that I get a good fluid effect on the surface of the steel, but zero adhesion when I attempt the weld.
   North - Sunday, 03/03/13 16:56:30 EST
Are you using flux? Scroll up a few posts, it has come up recently... also some good advice as well.
   - Nippulini - Sunday, 03/03/13 17:02:20 EST
Flux : Hi Nippulini. I currently use 20 Mule Team Borax. I also have some of the Anti-Borax Centaur sells. Both fail equally well.
   North - Sunday, 03/03/13 17:10:42 EST
North : One of the most common mistakes I see people make when trying to learn to weld is hitting the thing too hard. Billy Merrit, one of the best in the business when it comes to forge welding, demonstrates sticking a weld by hitting it with the hammer handle. This demonstrates that you don't need, or want, to whack hell out of it on the first blow. If you do, all that happens is that you blow the weldable surface clean out of the joint.

If you heat the pieces to sparkling, you may have overheated it - just short of that is the bet welding heat, I find. Yeah, Billy Merrit can weld two pieces together when they're just at a medium orange or so, but I don't how he manages it. He's just made some pact with the devil. (grin)

Borax is a fine flux for most jobs. If you can get some 1018 steel, instead of A-36, you may have better luck. Likewise if you use a higher carbon steel like 1045. 1018 is cleaner in terms of tramp elements than A36 and the higher carbon steels weld at a lower temperature.

Any joint to be forge welded really needs to be properly scarfed in order to weld well. You want the two pieces to make first contact in the middle of the joint so that further movement squeezes any crud out of the joint instead of trapping it. I find it helps tremendously to have the pieces freshly ground, too. Scale doesn't weld and the flux will do a better job of keeping the joint oxide free if it doesn't have to overcome a layer of mill scale.

So - get it clean, shape it right, flux it lightly at a red heat, then take it up to a high yellow heat where it looks like butter just starting to melt on the surface (that liquidy look) and then hit it firmly but not too hard. Just enough force to get the joint closed and a hair more. After that, you can re-flux, take another heat and hit it harder. But you have to get it stuck first.

You'll find it easier to get that first weld to stick if don't try it on small stock. Use some 3/4" square bar and make a faggot weld. The bigger bar will hold the heat longer and allow you to move comfortably, not rush.

Practice is the only way to get good at it.
   Rich Waugh - Sunday, 03/03/13 18:05:06 EST
Welding : Thanks for the info Rich. I have been careful to avoid hitting the weld hard at first, but the grinding sounds like a logical step and its something I havent tried. Here's a question for you: I live in a cold climate area and usually heat a slab of quarter inch steel on the forge and lay it on the anvil to draw the frost out (my shop isn't heated). I do this to avoid damage to the anvil from being struck when cold as I have seen axes break in this climate from the cold. Would I be wise to acquire a piece of channel iron to saddle the anvil and pre+heat it to cover the anvil before welding?
   North - Sunday, 03/03/13 19:14:15 EST
Forge Welding Issues :
1) It can be your coal. More coal is bad than good.
2) It can be your forge (too shallow of a fire, to hard a blast).
3) It can be where you put the metal in the fire. Too deep and it is burned by the blast, too shallow and it is burned by the air. Just right is where the fire is carburizing and not oxidizing.
4) Flux does not remove excessive scaling from prior to being applied.
5) If overheated, flux boils off.
6) If trying to weld scrap you may have alloy (nickle of chrome) steels which are very difficult to weld and require special fluxes).
7) As noted, joint design is fairly critical. The goal is for all the flux and slag to be able to squeeze out, NOT become trapped.
8) Also as noted you can hit too hard. If you have a liquid surface (which is not absolutely necessary) this blows it out.
9) Heating too fast make the above liquid surface and a lower temperature core. Heating too fast also burns the steel. If the liquid surface is melted scale then its not going to weld or only partially weld.

As Rich pointed out small stock is difficult to weld. However, I've seen little jewelery chest hinges forge welded from 1/32" wrought iron. Small welds are made using a very hot fire, heating in the gases coming off the fire and sticking the pieces together in the fire prior to moving to the anvil.

LAST, While many smiths make forge welding look easy (it can be), even the best miss a weld once in a while.
   - guru - Sunday, 03/03/13 19:21:21 EST
Welding : Thanks for the pointers guru. The coal I used is the same that has been used at the CAN Iron conferences. It is a high quality pea coal that I order from a supplier in central Canada (shipping bites though).
Might I ask what the proper depth of a fire should be? I have an old Champion fire pot that is about twelve inches square and use a Champion 400 blower. Is there any kind of blast diverter that can be used in these pots to better control the airflow through the fire?
The steel I've been using is standard construction type steel but I'm not sure of the numbers. A supplier an hour away has a shed full of various sizes and shapes bt the shed foreman stares at me like I have two heads if I ask technical questions like that.
   North - Sunday, 03/03/13 20:12:10 EST
North : The Guru has a listing of places where coal can be purchased directly. In the old days ( 1950's ) every town had a coal delivery service. My daddy would order a truckload to burn in our pot belly stove. I can remember as a young boy seeing that old stove get red hot, kept the house warm. The nearest place to me where coal can be purchased is Piedmont Missouri, about 85 miles from me in NE Arkansas. I called the place and the guy told me to get as much as I wanted and leave the money in a box in the scale house ( sort of an honor system ). I haven't made it there yet, but a trip would be worth it for a truck load.
   Mike T. - Sunday, 03/03/13 22:14:16 EST
North : Standard "construction steel" in the US is generally A-36. Note that that is a specification that is long on structural strength and short on actual chemistry. There can be a lot of tramp elements in that steel since most of it is made from re-melted scrap. As Jock noted, if there is any appreciable amount of chromium or nickel in the mix it will make the stuff tough to weld. That's why I recommend learning to weld on 1018 or medium carbon 10XX steel if you can get it. A36 is weldable, it can just vary from piece to piece.

If you buy cold-finished steel it is often 1018 or 1020 rather than A36 - costs more, but you may find it easier. Or not - some of it is pickled and oiled and some guys have absolute fits trying to weld the stuff.

A good fire would be about six inches deep and the steel should be heated near the top of the fire where all the excess oxygen has been consumed, but clear at the top where it is picking up oxygen from teh air around it. You want a steady blast of air, not a torrent and not a whimper. When the work piece sort of disappears in the fire, you're at the right heat, usually.
   Rich Waugh - Sunday, 03/03/13 22:58:27 EST
Mike T. - coal : Mike T, if you are looking for blacksmith coal, BAM maintains stockpiles around the state(MO). Check the website for the locations and price - www.bamsite.org.
   - Bernard Tappel - Monday, 03/04/13 09:14:27 EST
Commercial Fire Pots, Coal and Welding :
The old commercial cast iron fire pots (not "pans") are nearly perfect. The problem is home made forges and rivet forges.

A Welding Story -


Back in the early 1980's I visited the Kaynes (of Blacksmiths Depot) when they still lived in Long Island, NY. As was inevitable the subject of coal and forge welding came up. Steve Kayne put literally a handful (not a shovel full) of coal in a clean Champion fire pot over a sheet of news print (to start the coal). In a few seconds he had a fire and immediately put two pieces of steel in the green coal forge fire, heated it, and less than a minute later welded them together!

There was no coking of the coal, no building a special shape fire, generally insufficient depth, no flux was used. . . Everything was "wrong" except the coal and the skill of the smith. Steve claimed much of the credit went to the very high BTU coal.

Steve and his family had recently gotten back from a country crossing vacation where they at stopped into the North West Blacksmiths convention. He was not there as a demonstrator but when he saw all the shenanigans going on to make forge welds he unloaded his forge and amazed the audience with the same demonstration.


Coal, even from the same seam varies and what you buy this month may not be the same as last. And among all the variations in coal, the stuff Steve Kayne was using at that time was the best of the best for forge welding and not very common.

The point to all this is that despite all the best advise there are still variables beyond your control. With practice and experience smiths learn to compensate for variations in coal and forge. You can tell by the sound of the blast, the color of the smoke, the way the coal coalesces and cokes (or not) and how the ash looks (ash that blows out of the fire is a bad sign) and dozens of other cues. A forge fire is an organic thing with character and temperament that one must listen to and understand as well as control.
   - guru - Monday, 03/04/13 10:38:01 EST
Welding; One More Trick : I addition to all the good advice (soaking in fire a bit before highest heat, surface the appearance of "warm honey, &c.); one practice that seems to work for me is to have a piece of steel wire about 2' (.6 M) long with the last couple of inches bent at a right angle. When the primary objects come up to near welding heat, I put the end of the wire in the fire with them, and when the end starts to stick to the objects, (sort of like touching you finger to adhesive tape; sticky but not firm or stuck) I know that the surfaces are at a good welding heat.

I use just about any wire that's not galvanized (if it's rusty, it's okay) but the wire legs from road flares (a common find along the road when I'm walking) seem to be about the right length and gauge. I suppose that stainless steel wire might work better for SS, &c., but I don't venture into "exotics."

I hope this might help.

Sunny and cold on the banks of the lower Potomac.

Visit your National Parks: www.nps.gov

Go viking: www.longshipco.org
   Bruce Blackistone -Atli- - Monday, 03/04/13 11:02:43 EST
Sweden Anvil : I have recently purchased an Anvil marked 156 lbs, Sweden, and it also has a teardrop or horn image over the Sweden word. Oh and it looks like 1RAG possibly over to the right of the above mentioned. Can you help me find out what I have and the value please. Thanks I have looked all over the internet and still no answers. Thanks
   Lori - Monday, 03/04/13 13:57:08 EST
I have recently purchased an Anvil that is marked Sweden with a teardrop or horn shape above it, 156 lbs, and possibly 1RAG over to the right. It has one horn and no cracks, its in good shape. I am needing some more information about it and possibly the value. I would like to resale it but can not find what I need on the internet to price it. Thanks so much in advance for your help!
   - Lori - Monday, 03/04/13 14:01:27 EST
I have recently purchased an Anvil that is marked Sweden with a teardrop or horn shape above it, 156 lbs, and possibly 1RAG over to the right. It has one horn and no cracks, its in good shape. I am needing some more information about it and possibly the value. I would like to resale it but can not find what I need on the internet to price it. Thanks so much in advance for your help!
   - Lori - Monday, 03/04/13 14:03:59 EST
Lori, LOOK UP! I posted immediately after your original post.
   - guru - Monday, 03/04/13 16:13:02 EST
Mr. Tappel : Thank you for the web-site, I found a place closer to my home, it was a big help for me. You are a good guy. Thanks !
   Mike T. - Monday, 03/04/13 22:35:47 EST
Mike T. : I was doing some thinking ( which can be dangerous at times ) but here is an idea I had for metal working from a new perspective. Instead of creating works to meet the demands of customers, how about creating tools or machines that will enable customers to open new busineses, thereby creating a a new demand. Let me explain. I went to a craft show and while there, I saw a huge ice cream machine a guy had made ( looked like a regular ice cream maker only bigger ) His power source was the PTO on a John Deere tractor. Crowds of people were buying his ice cream. Why not make big ice cream machines and advertise them on the internet for the public to start their own ice cream business. Also you could make huge mixers, with dough hooks for people to start their own bakery like doughnut shops. In other words create a demand by creating the means or tools for the trade ? How about making huge deep fryers, with baskets, large smokers for sides of beef, pork etc. When people see these products, they can say, HEY, I can start a business with that.
   Mike T. - Monday, 03/04/13 22:57:24 EST
Caboose handrails... : Hello, it's been a long time since I was here, glad to see the site still looks great. I'm restoring an old wooden caboose; and part of that involves modifying part of some handrails. As far as I know, they'll never be used, as it's against company policy. Still, I want the work to be very sturdy, as I think that a weak handrail is a false sense of security, better no handrail at all. That said, I need to make ends on round bar stock; flattened areas where a bolt hole is. The existing ones appear to be more metal than mere hammering flat; either they were (upset?) first, then the hole made, or a flat are was welded on. That's my thought anyway, I'd really like you guys to weigh in on it. I made a web page with extensive pictures; that, or I can try to post the pictures and questions here.
http://www.donahuesignarts.com/?q=node/384
I'm in the Knoxville Tn, USA area, and of moderate skill level.
Thanks for your help.
   Jim Donahue - Tuesday, 03/05/13 01:00:43 EST
Machine Industry :
Mike, It can be that simple, or NOT. First you must find an unfilled need. Then come up with a manufacturable design that can be sold at a reasonable price. THEN you have to make it and market it.

You start with research (the need). You may THINK something is a nifty widget but then you may find that three other companies are already making them. . . and the market is covered. I've spent years researching various items only to find that they WERE available to those who were interested. I spent 2 years studying one such project to find that it WAS NOT filled (still is not) but I needed several hundred thousand dollars to create the product, then another hundred thousand to manufacture the first run. . . I worked on funding for about a year. . I sold all my power hammers, an ironworker and a dozen anvils to fund finding funding for the project to no avail. I thought I was getting out of blacksmithing. . .

Getting to your market can be very difficult (or very expensive). You need web sites, infomercials, advertizing and BUZZ. . . You write press releases, put on demos. . . hope to get a spot on national TV. . . That 10 seconds of a public interest fluff piece COULD be worth millions to you. . but its a huge gamble (OR you need to KNOW somebody). In the case of my project the target market was easy and the initial run of 1,000 would have paid all the expenses. I just needed that seed money. . . (not an insignificant thing).

I've got a whole filing cabinet of marketable ideas, just not the capital to pursue them.

You've got a great idea. Do it! Wish I could.
   - guru - Tuesday, 03/05/13 01:13:29 EST
Caboose handrails... :
Jim, Tom Troszak of Phoenix Hammers has a photo demo of making a rail car handle. Rather than upsetting which is difficult without an upsetter a heavy bar has two balls forged on the ends then the middle drawn out.

See Phoenixhammer.com demos, demo2

Relatively long rails can be made this way. However, in a forging shop with an upsetter they would upset the balls on the end as you summize and then flatten them.

The difference between the two methods is the availability of machinery and the application. Most railroad maintenance shops could make short handles and rails on a tooling hammer but a rail car manufacturer would make them on an upsetter OR have a contractor make them.
   - guru - Tuesday, 03/05/13 01:25:26 EST
Jim, I looked at you page after posting (since I knew what you were talking about). Thanks for the link. You are welcome to copy my response above if you like.

This CAN be done by hand but the upsetting, as Josh Greenwood puts it, "Can be an upsetting experience". On the other hand, I've seen smiths that could make upsets as easy as any other forging. But it takes a lot of practice and very quick hammer blows. I avoid it when I can.

Similar eyes were made in the wrought iron era by bending and forge welding. Tension bars for buildings, bridges and trusses were made this way. A point is forged, the eye is formed with the point extending from full diameter to the end alongside the shank. This is then forge welded.

Methods changed when steel became the normal material and forging machines common.
   - guru - Tuesday, 03/05/13 01:42:05 EST
Jim : Are you restoring the caboose for the company or did you purchase it for your own use. If my memory serves me right, cabooses were discontinuesd in the early 70's, they were replaced by rear end devices,
some referred to as star markers. When the engineer pumped air into the air lines, the rear end device would register the air pressure, according to Federal law, the bakes could not be released until the pressure registered 70 lbs. at this point the radio in the rear end device would notify the engineer that the brakes were ok to release. Personally, I think the handrails should be restored to original condition. I don't know how close a diesel shop is to Knoxville, but the Jenks Diesel shop in Little Rock can rebild a railroad engine from the ground up, We take our cars in for a 25,000 mile or 50,000 mile checkup, but ralroad engines go in for a million mile checkup. I'm sure they could reproduce those handrails in a matter of minues, just have to contact the right person. Tell them it is for historical preservtion.
   Mike T. - Tuesday, 03/05/13 02:16:21 EST
Jim : I found out that a lot of old cabooses were placed beside swimming pools in back yards and used as bath houses. Some are buried underground and used a cellars etc.
   Mike T. - Tuesday, 03/05/13 02:30:18 EST
Some dopes dont take no for an answer... : Guru, thanks for the info, I'll look into it tomorrow, it's pretty late here. I'm thinking better to have tried and failed than not tried at all; so, I just went out and looked at that big old tractor weight. It has two holes about 1 inch diameter through it. That with a liberal slab of 1946 GM locomotive leaf spring below it, I might have a holder for some hammering on a vertical rod of steel. One advantage is that I'm making the center suport, not the handrail itself. It seems as though making the handrail would leave me with the issue of ending up with the right length after making two ends. But the middle support only has one upset end, the other end wrapping around the handrail. Thanks again, know more tomorrow.
   Jim Donahue - Tuesday, 03/05/13 02:32:27 EST
Mike: : The caboose will be part of a working excursion train. It would be nice to go original, but they need to lower the maintenance cost, so a few modifications are in order. Knoxville is blessed with more kinds of hardwood trees than most places,( started making my own Hickory handles) but they grow quickly into the railway, and smash passing equipment, so we're bolting the center support in a way that's not through the new rubber roof. I heated the original pieces to remove them, instead of cutting them off. That way they'll be available for a museum to use, should they want to. As far as rebuilding locomotive motors goes; they're made with "power packs". Each cylinder has its own sleave, piston, rings, connecting rod, and round cylinder head. The block stays in the locomotive while the required cylinders are rebuilt/replaced. Bad bearings are checked with a digital thermometer while the prime mover (Deisel motor) is running. I was a rail fan as a kid, they wouldn't let me too near them. Now I'm paid to climb all over them. I thought that one reason cabooses were terminated was the advent of roller bearings, as opposed the the old friction bearings (flat like a crankshaft bearing).The old style required frequent manual oilings, and still sometimes caught on fire, AKA hotbox. The caboose crew watched for those fires.
   Jim Donahue - Tuesday, 03/05/13 03:20:35 EST
Caboose handrails middle support :
The problem, I see with making the middle supports is that they were made first, the rail threaded through and the second end made. If these are missing then they were probably torched off for some reason.

That one rail with the flared out end was made in a one sided die under a power hammer. It looks like the die was not a very good design.
   - guru - Tuesday, 03/05/13 08:09:05 EST
Destructive Vines : Missing parts due to aggressive Southern growth is very likely. We had a 3 story tall Victorian era house that had the classic Wisteria vines trained on the porches. They had been unmaintained for decades and grown to the top of the roof 45 feet above ground. At ground level they were tree size. On the second floor the vines tendrils had worked under windows and opened them as much as a foot, continued into rooms and put roots into the hardwood floors.

Honeysuckle, English Ivy and Poison Ivy followed the Wisteria. Leaves from the vines and surrounding trees built up on the roofs and gutters then trees had started growing in this debris. One large porch column had been pulled loose by the vines and was found supported in mid air a foot away from its base by the vines. On the less maintained carriage house this growth was 6 feet deep and the vines on the roof 2" in diameter or more. The rich organic soil created under the vines was a foot deep in places and held moisture long enough that the vines did not need their roots going to the Earth.

It took us years to remove all this mess and restore the columns on the porch. Much of the bric-a-brack decorative woodwork was destroyed and could not be replaced. Luckily the brick work was tight and roots had not gotten into any of the mortar joints. In older places with soft mortar joints Mulberry and Sycamore seeds catch in the joints and the trees grow out of joints (often many stories above the ground). Expanding roots open up the joints and destroy the masonry.

I've seen Honeysuckle cover acres of land up to several feet deep the vines reaching over an inch in diameter. Removing it is difficult and keeping it from returning can take years. I've seen Poison Ivy vines as big as a man's arm growing on trees. At this point you can cut them in two separating them from the ground but they have so many root tendrils in the tree bark that this does not kill them.

In North America Grape vines are the ones that grow on tall trees to become childrens "swinging vines". Grape vines are not so aggressive as others and do not kill the trees like the imported Kudzu. But they can still do damage.

The works of man become nothing in the face of natures attack. Look at asphault pavement. . crab grass will start in crevises and completely cover a highway (or aircraft runway) in a couple years. After this pioneer species other grasses, trees and vines dig in. If Southern growth does not destroy highways Northern winters will. . .
   - guru - Tuesday, 03/05/13 08:37:01 EST
North : You can apply borax at a heat so that it melts right away; it gets tacky. Then, put Anti-Borax compound on top of it. There is less chance of it falling off in the fire. I know it sounds oxymoronish to apply Anti-Borax to borax. Just do it. The only reason Anti-Borax was so named is that the company wanted you to buy it as a proprietary product instead of the old standby, borax. I will often mix them as described.

Vern Olinger used to operate a farriers' school in Golden, Colorado, and he would yell at his students regarding forge welding, "You gotta' move quicker that a snake astrikin'!"

If all goes well and with the use of flux, you should be able to weld at a sweating heat; ie., without sparks. In England, they often weld without flux, but in that case, it helps to get into the incipient sparking range.

   Frank Turley - Tuesday, 03/05/13 09:18:33 EST
Jims Caboose : Jim, have you looked up the Clinch River Guild of Blacksmiths? they're in Knoxville, I used to be a memeber when I lived there (I'm in Johnson City now). I have the contact info somewhere (not here at work, unfortunately), but they meet at a shop on Central downtown. Just a suggestion if you want access to some equipment and knowledge.
   Alan-L - Tuesday, 03/05/13 11:29:41 EST
Machinery Industry : Guru, I feel like I know you and your expertise and considerable knowledge. I know if you have a new invention, it will work. Make a demostration model, demonstate it to a group of venture capitalists, and convince them of a return on capital. I see demonstrations of this procedure on a television show ( can't remember the name of it ). Let's take Famous Amos for example. He made chocolate chip cookies and gave samples to every one. He gave samples to movie stars who were so impressed that they started giving him start up money. Also after demonstrations, start selling bonds with a promise of returns for their
support. Guru, you are a smart person, persue your dreams.
   Mike T. - Tuesday, 03/05/13 15:11:52 EST
Blacksmithing Safety : Aside from the obvious: burning yourself on a piece of hot metal or getting too near your forge, whacking yourself with a hammer, and hearing and sight loss from not wearing the proper eye and ear protection; what are some other safety issues in blacksmithing and what is the best way to protect yourself from them?
   Wendy - Tuesday, 03/05/13 22:02:41 EST
Safety :
Wendy, A lot depends on the type of machinery you have in your shop. Every machine has its own safety issues. If is has a motor it can bite, spit, grab. . . shatter cutters.

The sneaky burns are the ones you need to be careful of. Quenching pipe or tubing will blow superheated steam up the pipe to the end you are holding. Even if using tongs the sputtering steam and water can still spray far enough and burn you.

Another sneaky burn is from wet gloves. Water in the gloves turns to steam and you get steam burned in the gloves.

The last of the sneaky burns are from handling non-ferrous bars. Aluminium, bronze and copper conduct heat very fast and the end hanging out of the forge can be nearly as hot as the end in the forge. . .

Gas forges often have dragon's breath blowing out horizontally a foot or more. This can result in flaming hair. A good reason to keep your hair covered. When lighting a gas forge the initial "pop" can singe hair a couple feet away. If you have your face in front of the open door when you light it you can lose your eye lashes and eye brows. . .

Buffing non-ferrous metals puts a lot of toxic dust in the air. Buffing anything puts cotton dust (the cause of brown lung) in the air. Ventilation and a mask are recommended.

Belt Grinders are very handy and common in the blacksmith shop. They have a huge fire hazard if you grind anything non-metallic and THEN metal which sparks and may set the non-metallic (wood, bone, plastic) dust on fire. A good friend lost his shop to a smouldering dust fire due to this. Note that even metal dust can catch fire.

TONGS: A safety issue I ran into recently was due to tongs with balls on the end of the reins and the ends flared out. They kept catching in my sleeves. I couldn't let go of the tongs or quickly get rid of the hot work. This is the first time I had experienced this issue.

Smoke and carbon monoxide can be issues if your forge is not well vented or the the shop well ventilated.

Arc welding produces a lot of smoke. Some rods and some steels are high manganese and produce toxic fumes. Welding galvanized can produce illness in a few hours. If the coating is cadmium the fumes can be lethal. Many old welders die of mystery illnesses that are some kind of heavy metal poisoning. Ventilation is the key factor to healthy welding.

Keep things dry in your welding area. Electrical shock is much more common in a damp or wet shop.

Heavy items are a silent and deadly safety hazard. You only have to drop an anvil or swage block a few inches to smash a finger, drop one a little farther and you can break a leg.

The handles on vises are famous for pinching the web between thumb and finger. . . A rubber grommet helps but does not completely cure the issue. It also reduces noise. The safe thing is learning to keep your hands of the top of the handle. Swinging vise handles can also strike you in the crotch. Just don't let them swing.

Chemicals have their own collection of hazards. Read the warnings.

Heating anything that has a coating or paint on it can produce all sorts of noxious fumes. Again, ventilation is important.
   - guru - Wednesday, 03/06/13 01:40:52 EST
Safety : One thing that is rarely mentioned but has ended the careers of too many smiths is poor ergonomics. Having your anvil set too low so you bend over or reach for it will ruin your back and arms in short order. Forget the old saw about "knuckle high" and set your anvil where you can work comfortably without bending over or reaching. You may well find this is as much as six inches higher than knuckle high.

The same thing applies to all equipment you spend much time working with - have it comfortable or you risk damage or injury.

Spend whatever it takes to get safety equipment you *will* use. Uncomfortable personal protective equipment won't be used as regularly as it should be.
   Rich Waugh - Wednesday, 03/06/13 10:02:23 EST
Safety - Steel Toed Shoes : One thing I did not mention is steel toed shoes. Many shops require them, many smiths wear them. Even if you are not moving heavy machinery, driving fork lifts. . . blacksmith shops have heavy items that can be dropped OR a toe stubbing hazard. Many smiths call swage blocks nothing but toe stubbers. This can make simply walking across the shop dangerous.

While I have not had toe stubbing injuries in the shop I have had them elsewhere. These can be serious, permanently damaging the nail bed which can result in thick nails, ingrown nails and other issues that can be painful and affect your ability to walk. Mine have been merely a minor aggravation.

There is a myth that steel toed shoes can be worse than no shoes. Mythbusters did some very serious and dramatic testing proving all the myths about steel toed shoes wrong.
   - guru - Wednesday, 03/06/13 11:12:16 EST
Safety toe shoes : First, many SAFETY toe shoes are no longer steel. Many are titanium or composite. The composites are usually lighter, more comfortable as they have more room and are warmer outside in cold environs as they are not very good thermal conductors.
Real life, I have had an employee have a forklift drive over a safety toe shoe, and the safety toe did protect her, with no injury to the area covered by the toe. She did have a slight injury to the area behind the toe, where the wheel first contacted behind the little toe.

I am a firm believer in Meta-tarsel guards, having them protect me from all sorts of dropped items that struck behind the coverage of the safety toe. The little bones behind the toes need protection as well as the toes. Meta-tarsel guards also divert slag and hot scale that will often burn thru a shoe tongue and end up inside the shoe.
Real life, had an employee who had a 454# axle roll off a 30" high table and the flange hit his meta-tarsel guard. The huard broke, but he ended up with only a hairline fracture of one bone. I think without he would have had a crushed foot at best and a severed foot at worst.
The meta-tarsel guards are onlt tested and rated to 75 foot-pounds impact, but those saved him, and the shoe maker provided a brand new pair, hand delivered when he came back to work.
I wear mine in the blacksmith shop everytime I am working.
Rich Waugh has commented on this style of shoes remarking that they had to be the sexiest shoes ever worn by man. I now suspect after many years of knowing Rich that he may have made that comment in sarcasm.
   ptree - Wednesday, 03/06/13 14:00:14 EST
Flux : There are many recipes for "superior" fluxes. A lot of them contain NaCl or other chlorides. This has always made me wonder. Where does the chlorine end up if you use a salt? And what effect does it have on the long term results of the weld?

I've also found one that includes sulphur. Where does that go?
   - Rudy - Wednesday, 03/06/13 14:27:19 EST
Flux : Rudy, I do not know where you are finding your flux recipes but I do not know of any commercial flux recipe that contains salt. To me salt in flux is like in food, a cheap, unneeded and unhealthy ingredient.

Sulfur? It would mostly go into the air as toxic sulfur dioxide. Any compounds formed from interactions with the rest of the flux that are left behind are tenacious corrosives.
   - guru - Wednesday, 03/06/13 15:15:20 EST
fluxes : I'm doing a lot of reading in old books and even old "Formula" books. I've found several recipes that include FeSO4, NaCl, "welding sand" (?), ammonium chloride, KNO3, & others. I'm just curious about the old way of doing things and trying to pick your brain about if any are any good.

I have also noted a fair number of mistakes(?) in the old books. Most seem to have been written by people who knew blacksmithing, but were not great technical authors. I found one reprint that used boraxo when I think it meant borax. I have found a few obviously self contradictory sentences and books (one page says X, another says Y. go figure).

A lot of these old references refer to borax as a good flux. Then they will expand by saying: "The following recipe will weld good steel at a lower temperature than plain borax". Or even one I saw for the forge welding of cast iron (?????).

I don't have any power tools and I live in an urban area where I couldn't use them if I had them. To compensate, I tell people I'm (ahem) "True path".
   - Rudy - Wednesday, 03/06/13 15:59:41 EST
Fluorspar (calcium fluoride) is added to flux to help break down difficult oxides. It doesn't seem completely beyond the pale that chlorides might have some of the same effects as fluorides. Though of course a chemist may tell us different. On the other hand, I've read that sodium chloride is separated into its constituent elements by melting it and then subjecting it to electrolysis. That says to me that it's pretty stable at high temperatures, and may not make any active chlorides available.

Adding sulfur sounds nuts. Sulfur in iron ore or coke creates hot-short steel (though it can be controlled with manganese). It's hard to see why you'd deliberately add the stuff.
   Mike BR - Wednesday, 03/06/13 16:07:30 EST
Salt as flux : Hofi advocated used salt as a punching lube. I ran a test to compare salt, coal dust, graphite powder in oil, moly-disulfide paste, forge scale all against commercial lube.
The salt disassociated and had a strong chlorine gas produced when applied to steel at hot punching temp. Worked as a punch lube, if you don't mind chlorine gas in your work space. I personally don't allow war gases in my work space, and dislike chlorine gas at almost any concentration in air I breath after being exposed in an industrial accident years ago.
   ptree - Wednesday, 03/06/13 18:36:10 EST
Chlorine : In my preteen years I played with electrolysis using salt water. Under certain conditions it generates chlorine. The microscopic amounts generated would clear your sinuses and take your breathe away in an instant. It is REALLY nasty stuff.

That said, fluorine gas is related to and worse than chlorine when exposed to flesh and is very pungent much like chlorine. However, fluorine is so reactive that it is very hard to produce. In a forge it would immediately bond with gases, metal and refractories.
   - guru - Thursday, 03/07/13 00:38:00 EST
Other than the obvious, are there any advantages/disadvantages of quenching in rendered bacon fat? I have a couple coffee cans full of it. I can only imagine that it might smell either wonderful or horrible. Then again, I have heard tell of urine quenching.. been tempted, but I do LIVE above my workshop..... angry wife anyone?
   - Nippulini - Thursday, 03/07/13 15:00:21 EST
Chlorine and flourine : Both chlorine and flourine gasses do near same thing in the lungs, both combining with the moisture and producing acid. The body tries to dilute the acid and if enough gas was inhaled you drown in your own mucus.

At the valve company, in the last few years we ran, we made valves lined with engineering polymers, and several of these high performance plastics were very sensitive to hold at temp or over temp when injecting. Several of the polymers would "Unzip" into their monoymers, one yeilding copous chlorine, and another copouis flourine. The molding machine we inherited with the line from another company was badly corroded from these gasses. I put in an extremely vigerous exhaust system to clear the gasses when this happened. One of the old fashioned polymers Saran, was so sensitive to this unzip that we kept a trash can of water right by to dump the mass of unzipping plastic into and the cold water stopped the process pretty quick. Had to replace that galvanized can in about 3 months with a SS one as the hydrochloric acid produced ate thru the can!

As an old CBR NCO from the ARMY, and having been a safety guy for many years no chlorine is the right amount to breath. Flourine is also a no breath item, and also has weird reaction if you get it on your skin.

We built very special, very expensive valves for Hydroflorine service in alkalation plants for making unleaded gas, and as far as I can tell Hydroflourine is as close to anti-matter as commonly exists on this earth.
   ptree - Thursday, 03/07/13 15:14:10 EST
Fluxes : As long as we're on the subject of strange, primitive techniques, I dug out the different things my old books recommend as fluxes or ingredients in compound fluxes:

Borax (regular, or oven roasted, or melted and reground)
Boraxo
Salt
Sal Ammoniac
sand
iron filings
balsam of copaiba
refined solution fostering
rock salt
copperas
saltpeter
black oxide of manganese
prussiate of potash
prussiate blue
olive oil
boric acid
boracic acid
fluorspar
ferro cyanide of potassium
rosin
carbonate of sodium
potassium cyanide
Berlin blue

I have deliberately used the original names (my sources are all 1900 or older) and some (like the blues) may be duplications. Or are they? Anyone know?

I get the feeling there used to be a real demand for a good welding flux.
   - Rudy - Thursday, 03/07/13 15:24:47 EST
Rudy, Your sources are a mess. Boraxo is a SOAP line from the US Borax company that may contain a small amount of borax but is NOT suitable for flux. Other things on your list are used for quenchants but not flux. Some are highly toxic such as cyanide (used to be used for heat treating and is rapidly being replaced), and others are unstable such as saltpeter (KNO3) which if mixed with sulfur (mentioned yesterday) is explosive (even without the charcoal used to make black powder). AND things in the list are useless as forge welding flux but are used in soldering non-ferrous materials.

Today's modern welding fluxes are generally based on things that WORK and are used in more than one industry. Some forge welding fluxes are very similar to arc welding electrode coatings (less the smoke generators) and others are similar to foundry fluxes.

Compared to buying small amounts of flux ingredients it is cheaper to purchase commercial forge welding flux. OR just use good old fashioned borax as do a majority of smiths.

IF you are going to make your own you need to understand some chemistry and all those things NOT TO DO. One thing not to do is use common names unless it is very clear what they are. All others should be given by chemical formula or formal chemical name. However, formulas are best due to there being differences in formal name in other languages.
   - guru - Thursday, 03/07/13 16:14:41 EST
Bacon Grease : I keep a small plastic tub of it (~1/2 - 1 pint?) in the forge. I use it for quenching really small tools, like masonry nails modified as punches for carving runes. I ubnderstand that engravers also used it for engraving tools, but that's not my area of expertise. When last used it wasn't rancid, yet. It sure smells nice when you quench a hot point in it! :^)

Funny; I was just reading about Bacon's Castle, where some of my reenactor friends have held events, earlier today: http://www.apva.org/BaconsCastle/ You have to love "Hysteric Virginia! ;^)
   Bruce Blackistone -Atli- - Thursday, 03/07/13 17:44:16 EST
pritchel hole : i am looking to buy a 67 pound columbian that only has a hardy hole-is this common or is it a mistake-there is no evidence even underneath of there ever being a pritchel hole
   vern kelderman - Thursday, 03/07/13 19:47:03 EST
Columbian Hardy Hole :
Vern, The two Columbians we have photos of have pritchel holes in different locations on different sides. Since these holes are most often drilled it could be that that these were special ordered and the one you are looking at was ordered without a pritchel hole. Just my 5 cents worth.
   - guru - Thursday, 03/07/13 20:42:10 EST
Forge welding : Thank you many times over to guru, Frank, Atli and all others for the useful advice. After starting over from scratch and forgetting everything I had "learned" so far, I have finally achieved a decent forge weld. Cut in two there is no visible line in the weld. It appears one of my biggest problems was too shallow a fire.
Once again, many thanks to all.
   North - Thursday, 03/07/13 20:48:58 EST
ancient fluxes : I assume the Vikings, Saxons, Romans, Greeks all used some kind of flux when forge welding. Just wonder what they used ?
   Mike T. - Friday, 03/08/13 02:12:33 EST
Forge hoods : Hello, im gettin ready to weld up my super sucker forge hood and i was wondering if there is any way i could beef it up to keep it from rusting thru! I have plenty of 1/4 and 1/8 plate, where should i beef it up with 1/4 plate to slow rust thru without making it weigh a ton?
   - ~ Lee - Friday, 03/08/13 07:06:00 EST
ancient fluxes : Mike, that would be a bad assumption. You are talking about the era of wrought iron which welds quite well without flux. Also when steeling edges the slag in the wrought provides the flux for the joint.
   - guru - Friday, 03/08/13 09:39:52 EST
stepper motors : I ran across this on McMaster-Carr NEMA DC Stepper Motors, Drivers, and Controls.....you can use 2 of them, plug them into a Windows PC using the software provided and synchronize them to run the way you want them to. I was looking for a system that would push a rod in a 36" push-pull motion ( actuator ). I do find actuators, but all I found would only extend 6-12 inches or so. Wht do you think about the above method ?
   Mike T. - Friday, 03/08/13 09:52:47 EST
Forge Hoods; ~Lee : You could go the "battleship armor" rout, or the expendable/replaceable rout. I would expect 1/8th inch to last a long time, even with daily use. On my old "occasional use" coal forge, plain old stovepipe lasted for five or more years. So, are you looking for a permanent fitting that will last forever, or something that will get the job done with minimal fuss and bother? Is the forge in continual use in a hot, humid environment, or used once a week in a cool, dry location? Do you use low sulfer coal, or charcoal, or high sulfer whatever-you-can-get? (...or all three?)

Just some consideration; I'm sure others will chime in. Ask 12 blacksmiths, get 18 answers. ;^)
   Bruce Blackistone -Atli- - Friday, 03/08/13 10:04:55 EST
The older/cruder the wrought iron generally the more "self fluxing" it is. If you wanted to add more flux clean quartz sand was suggested as it was "halfway" to the ferrous silicates in the wrought iron.

In recent times---just a century or two ago powdered glass was suggested as a flux. In the Foxfire books they mentioned dirt daubers nests and of course the Japanese used rice straw ashes. (Neo-Tribal smiths have tried wood ashes in the last decade.) All of these early fluxes have quite high activation temps and were used with real wrought iron that was commonly welded at a white hot "snowball" heat.

If you read in "Practical Blacksmithing" a collection of Blacksmithing Journal articles from 1889, 1890 and 1891 you will find a discussion of the "new" bessemer steel (started production in 1856!cf Kelly process too). Blacksmiths had difficulties welding the "new" steel as it did not work well at the high temperatures Wrought Iron needed. This is when a lot of the experimentation with different fluxes started, to weld the "new" steels.

Of course nthe high alloy steels are even more recent and so the flux that worked for plain steel has been "juiced up" for steels containing a lot of different carbide formers.

I'll check "Mechanics Exercises", Moxon, pub 1703 to see if he suggests anything other than clean quartz sand.
   ThomasP - Friday, 03/08/13 11:46:04 EST
Forge hoods :
Lee, The places that would fail the soonest are where it is supported OR supports the stack AND where it gets hottest burning off any high temp paint applied.
   - guru - Friday, 03/08/13 11:57:18 EST
Forge Hood : Lee,

You can always go the low tech, common sense route. Make it so it's easy to repair.

Translation: Don't counter sink nuthin. Loose rivets to make it easy to shear or hacksaw off. If you're feeling fancy - some kind of slot system.

Did that w a commercial door once. We couldn't keep the truck from hitting it, so we put in a 50 cent shear pin and saved the $800 hydraulics.
   - Rudy - Friday, 03/08/13 12:17:38 EST
steppers : Mike, like most things, its a bit more complicated than that. You probably dont want or need a whole PC to run one simple pusher- there are PLC's (programmable logic controllers) that are smaller, tougher, and work better at chores like that.
here is a thread on PM about a guy building almost exactly what you want- its a backgage/length stop for his ironworker, step by step. just add "www".
practicalmachinist.com/vb/fabrication-cnc-laser-waterjet-plasma-welding-fab/home-made-edwards-55-ton-ironworker-punch-push-feed-system-build-thread-253395/
   - ries - Friday, 03/08/13 13:14:16 EST
Linear actuators : MikeT,

Look at Burden's Surplus City for linear actuators. They have 12v actuators used to move pull-out on travel trailers that will go to 36" or more. The same sort, though 115v AC, are used in older hospital beds and I've got a pair of them I scrounged from the dumpster a while back.
   Rich Waugh - Friday, 03/08/13 17:27:59 EST
Ries and Rich : Thank you for the feed back and the links provided. Yall are good ol' boys.
: - )
   Mike T. - Friday, 03/08/13 17:42:09 EST
Shop Safety : Thanks for all the tips. I guess my main concern was the dangers to the lungs/respiratory system from fumes and cleaning and treating metal.I appreciate the info. I love the craft but I have been a nurse for the past 25 years so it's a little hard to forget about the health risks which I guess I really shouldn't do, just learn how to arm myself against them and forge ahead!
   Wendy - Friday, 03/08/13 22:12:51 EST
Steppers. PLCs and PCs :
Mike, Problem ONE is that like many you have kept your goals a secret. IF you have a printer hooked to a PC you have all the parts you have described. There are lots of projects based on using scrap printer parts including the stepper translator.

To operate a stepper motor you need a pulsed signal. The faster the pulse the faster the motor. To convert the pulses to power to each pole of the motor you need a translator and a DC power supply. The bigger the translator the bigger the power supply. Translators are also based on amps so they match the power supply and motor.

Common stepper motors turn 9 degrees per "step" or .9 degrees if micro stepping. Micro stepping is achieved by using odd combinations of poles on the motor. Reversing by changing poles on the translator or powering a direction pin. However, this must be done after stoping the the motor.

The PLC controllers for steppers have some special features to ramp the motor up and down. You cannot instantly start a stepper at full speed and stopping instantly is also not recommended. The controllers also have sophisticated pulse count systems to go exact distances.

If you are doing anything sophisticated such as running X-Y axis cutting programs the best setup is a Windows PC with a controller card. PC's are dead cheap compared to other systems to do these jobs. There is lots of software available BUT often does not work with the latest Windirt OS. Generally the most available software will work with nothing later than WinXP.

There are controllers that you can write your own software in QuckBASIC or Visual BASIC. Its lots of fun but a lot to learn even if you are already a programmer.
   - guru - Friday, 03/08/13 22:27:43 EST
Stepper Actuators :
"Actuators" are generally a motor and screw OR belt combination with a connecting means. Packaged actuators are very limited in capacity. If you are looking for a long travel system you need to build your own. This is done with stainless acme screw stock rotated by the motor. The part pushed by the screw is a anti-backlash ball nut. The screw can be driven directly by the motor OR via a cog belt to increase torque and precision. These parts are available from various small part suppliers as well as power transmission suppliers.

The stepper can also be mounted on the moving part or carriage. In this case the carriage is pushed either by a nut on the screw mounted in the carriage OR by a rack on the bed and pinion on the carriage/stepper motor. Rack and pinion systems require very careful alignment and can have backlash issues.

The last stepper system I built was a cutter feed system in a planetary gear train. There was no need for a feedback loop but the system DID have a +/- counter system for overall positioning. The machine feeds could be adjusted from a thousandths or less to fractions of an inch per revolution on the fly as well as stopped and reversed.

If you are running a precision CNC type operation the stepper motors have optional resolvers which keep count of actual movement. In precision systems this feed back loop is used to keep absolute position and make corrections on the fly. Some of the programming logic is pretty sophisticated and an art into itself. A good reason to buy the software.
   - guru - Friday, 03/08/13 23:16:35 EST
Calling all closet artistes : I've got a worn out triangular file. It's pretty big: 10 inches (not including rat tail) & .65 on a side.

I'd like to make something out of it that takes advantage of the high carbon steel w/o cutting it into itsy bitsy pieces.

The only things I can think of are (oversize) commando daggers, and (oversize) renaissance cannoneers knives.

It's too big for a spear point, and I'm not too big into weapons anyway.

Anyone got a spiritually satisfying suggestion?
   - Rudy - Sunday, 03/10/13 18:01:51 EDT
Anvils Worth : I recently found an old anvil in my grandfather's barn. It's a 126 lbs with no makers make a warped face and rounded edges. I want to take it and refinish it. Of course all my relatives think it's worth a small fortune and want to sell it as an antique. Anyone give me a rough estimate on it's worth to a non-smith? For me it's priceless. I can provide photos.
   Sean - Sunday, 03/10/13 18:09:35 EDT
Calling all closet artistes : Rudy, I think making flint & steel firestrikers would be a good use of that file. The effect of an old file shaped into a new form and its emitting sparks from a well placed strike of a flint will make many folks in need of spiritual enlightenment excited as all get out.
Its even more fulfilling when that person actually creates something on fire from those sparks.


   - Sven - Sunday, 03/10/13 20:40:12 EDT
Anvil Value - Antique :
Sean, The vast majority of anvils in existence are on average 100 years old. To be an "antique" anvils need to be 200 years or older. To be "collectable" they must be identifiable, rare and in good condition.

Most anvils, even those over 100 years old are working tools. Anvils do not need to be perfect to be valuable tools. But as tools their condition is a great part of the price. Size, condition, location (are you in NYC or Ethiopia?) all make a difference.

The last anvil I purchased in your size and approximate condition was at a big blacksmiths meet in Ohio and all I paid was $145. I thought it was worth at least $200.

In the U.S. on average old anvils in fair condition sell for $2-$5/lb. But in very good condition with known identifying marks can go for $10/lb. (ridiculous but true).

Truely antique anvils in old worn condition can sell for more than working anvils but often sell for less.

"Repairing" an anvil can ruin all its value either as a working tool OR antique. The better old anvils that become swayed as you say yours is have a relatively thin steel face about 1/2" thick (more on larger anvils). Machining them flat removes too much of the hard working surface while being swayed hurts nothing.

An anvil IS NOT a precision reference surface. You do not beat and pound on precision surfaces. Anvils on the other hand are used to straighten steel bars. Straightening cannot be done on a perfectly flat surface as there is no place for the material to flex into. So a swayed anvil is actually a better tool for straightening than a perfectly flat surface. TWO reasons not to machine an anvil face.

Good anvil faces are made of forged steel. Welding on them is putting cast fill onto forged metal. It is not as strong and often has or creates cracking. I am not saying anvils cannot be welded but that they are better NOT welded.

Anvil corners are best well rounded. Many people think they need to be sharp and weld them up. This puts weak material in a highly stressed location. Most of the time chipped corners can be dressed from the side then rounded a bit. Two reasons not to weld on anvils.

To a "non-smith" an old anvil is just a toe stumper or dead weight to move around and often can be bought for $50-$100 in the US. The same anvil to a collector (most anvil collectors are also smiths) could be worth $1000. . . Antique dealers in general will only buy cheap and rarely know the difference between junk, working or collectable and ask the same price for all.
   - guru - Sunday, 03/10/13 21:25:56 EDT
Triangular Files :
These make nice triangular chisels and repousse' tools. Both can be made 100% by grinding. I'd make a short wood working chisel and repousse' stamp (one each) from the file.

You could also make a triangular hot punch. Not much use but would be an addition to on-hand tools.

Small triangular files are a good shape to make gravers.
   - guru - Sunday, 03/10/13 21:34:22 EDT
Guru : Thank you or your information, Anvilfire is a good site.
: - )
   Mike T. - Monday, 03/11/13 03:41:25 EDT
Anvil Values : I was watching American Pickers and they were talking about an original Spiderman comic book ( I think, originally bought for 12 cents ) that sold for over 1 million dollars. More than likely I had some of the original ones, because I loved action hero comics. I never realized those things would ever increase in value.
   Mike T. - Monday, 03/11/13 03:49:36 EDT
Collectables :
In metal working tools and machinery anvils are a bright point largely due to Richard Postman's Anvils in America. Woodworking tools have been collected and prized as rarities for as long as I can remember. But not metalworking tools. I have seen fantastic mid 1800's "museum pieces" go to scrap because neither museums nor individuals are interested.

To me, books, magazines and documents as collectables are problematic. Those printed on first class paper and well bound are one thing but items like comics which literally evaporate due to their poor manufacture is altogether something else. I've been a book reader/buyer/collector all my life. But I have had to dispose of many of my early purchases simply because they were disintegrating from age.

Even "hard bound" books can be a problem. I've got several modern metalworking books, notably one on bladesmithing that was glue bound in hard covers and the glue just turned to dust. The book seller told me the entire run of this one book had the same problem. I've seen others including an expensive book on China that we purchased from National Geographic.

On the other hand, I've got books that were printed in the mid 1800's that are holding up fine and even some modern soft bound books that are now 40 years old that are doing fine.

Watching some of the History Channel "reality" shows shows such as Pawn Stars has given me some things to think about relative to books and documents. Several times rare, very interesting documents have come up but the problem was that they were so light sensitive that you could not display them. One was a very rare early blueprint.

The problem with Diazo or ammonia process blue prints is that the ultraviolet light that made them continues to bleach them. If you keep old prints dry and dark they hold up for decades. But a few weeks in daylight, even indoors and you can detect the fading. In a few months there is nothing to see. Even when sealed in the OEM wrappers blue print paper anywhere near ammonia fumes will bleach white. It is common to have large expensive inventories of print paper ruined because it was stored in the same room with the print machine. A very light application of water such as from condensation will also ruin a blue print.

On the other hand, the sized linen that early machine drawings were made on will last for centuries. While the prints have a short life, the originals last a very long time. I do not know how well the modern mylar drawings hold up but my earliest are over 30 years old now and the mylar seems to be holding up. But that is stored in the dark. I suspect that like a lot of plastics that long years in the light would destroy them.
   - guru - Monday, 03/11/13 10:28:56 EDT
I have several sized muslin drawings from VOGT, both pre-1900, that are perfect and usable if desired. They were framed and hung in the hallway in the front office for probably 30 years before I got them.
We used to shellac blue prints to thin sheet metal for shop use, as the shops destroyed blue prints quick. Need a revision? some alcohol and off comes the old and then on goes new with some fresh shellac.
At the axle shop we had mylas from the 60's that were terribly delicate, try and unroll and they crack and break.
   ptree - Monday, 03/11/13 13:53:22 EDT
I've got blue prints of my Dad's from the 1960's. However, most, as working documents have coffee spill and ring stains, pencil markups, phone numbers and calculations. . . Makes them an engineering work of art.

My favorite drawing was one I did that was 13 feet long at 1/4 scale. It includes shaded castings, huge 3" pitch 5 course roller chain and 2 foot diameter sprocket, a turntable with heavy duty drill press aligned over a bulls eye lead glass window. Another was an automatic transmission with clutches in cross section, ball bearings with shaded balls and an axillary feed motors.

Electromagnetic Transmission Detail by Jock Dempsey


I've always thought a nice office or den decor would be the walls papered with engineering prints . . OR maps (for a library). But these places all tend to end up with the walls covered by book shelves and file cabinets.
   - guru - Monday, 03/11/13 16:31:21 EDT
Saw a 100 pound Fisher Norris at the flea market with a $300 tag on it. Edges of the face were a bit chipped up, but otherwise not too bad. Then anothee vendor in an entirely different area had some 80 pound unmarked anvil with the face broken at the heel, but the wrought base was still viable. No price on it, either way I was shopping with my wife so purchases were out of the question. If anyone is interested, Columbus Flea Market, Columbus, NJ. Thursdays and Sundays.
   - Nippulini - Monday, 03/11/13 17:50:23 EDT
DIgital Blueprints : Blue print icon Blue print, black line . . . the digital world knows no difference. Scan a drawing and turn it into either. The problem is getting large scale drawings scanned. I have yet to find a roll size scanner. This transmission drawing scan is as much as I could get from a 50% reduction and it has edge fading. The black line details above were pulled out of the original scan.

When producing manuals we would have the drawings all reduced to 11" tall. Some required several folds as they were nearly four feet long even though reduced several times. This was all before economical digital manipulation.
   - guru - Monday, 03/11/13 19:49:47 EDT
USA anvils : I have a friend inquiring about an anvil with USA marked on the side. Does anyone know anything about these? I can't find it in the Anvils In America book. Thanks.
   - Robert Dean - Monday, 03/11/13 20:58:35 EDT
Robert, Those I've seen were cheap cast iron ASO's.
   - guru - Monday, 03/11/13 22:36:01 EDT
about firebrick forges : i am a writer and am trying to study and look at the many different types of forges that would work for the upcoming scene i have in my novel. to give you a little bit more of an insight, there are 3 characters who will be involved in the process, they have their own special material to work with and i am running out of ideas at the moment. I am now getting ready to move onto the drawing process of what i want my forge to look like, but i'm a little confused :( i've been reading about hoodless forges, trying to debate with myself on which type of forge would be the better one to work with, for creating a sword. Hoodless or a hooded forge? which one is better in the long run, and better suited, for describing the scene(s) of which will produce a great weapon? (PS i will eventually build this out in my backyard after drawing it out just to see how its going to look and function with the idea of maybe trying to forge a small dagger)
   FantasyWryter - Monday, 03/11/13 23:14:03 EDT
Guru : I think you are a genius. You have metalurgical, forging, electronic and electrical skills. I am always thinking of inventions ( not to make money ) but just as projects. If I was a millionaire, I would be making drawings, taking them to machine shops, electonics professionals etc. For example, I spent at least a hundred hours thinking about making a small car with a Harley motorcycle engine. I lay in bed and in my mind, I cut parts, assemble parts, think about rack and pinion, cast and camber on the wheels, suspension, heating, air conditioning, make drawings etc. Now for something simple, I wanted an actuater to push and pull a rod through a 4140 tube to cut riflings in it. I have never had any success in purchasing a broach, so I want to use fine grinding compound. Have a tube or pipe with the spiral cut in it, a rod inside of it with a button that will follow the spiral ( based on an old time rifling machine ) What I have found out is that the finer the grinding compound, the truer the cut will be. Soft iron is supposed to be the best medium for cutting the harder alloy ( however brass is an alternative. ) The rifled tube would be screwed into a round bar with the chamber and primer hole. Use shotgun powder, No.9 primer, more of a shotgun that a conventional muzzel loader. May use some trial error. I have put a lot of thought into it. I know kits can be purchased, it's just something I want to do. Cut round disks of brass, run them through a die to form a cup, then pour the lead into the brass cup. Weigh each one for consistency. I think it would be neat to kill a deer with all of the components made by hand. I also looked at your drawing of a bow, I would like to do that except make a crossbow. Instead of one solid stock, have two round rods side by side with a space with a jack in the center to jack the string back, like a car jack.
   Mike T. - Monday, 03/11/13 23:14:03 EDT
Rifling : Mike, Way too long a ramble. All I wanted to know is what you wanted the actuator for. Its application.

You don't buy broaches for rifling. You make them. The common broach used by early gunsmiths was made with a little piece of file. They are a single point tool that cuts one groove using multiple passes, then is rotated to the next. Today you could make a much more durable cutter from a piece of broken tap or a HSS lathe cutter bit.

These cutters were pulled through the gun barrel by hand the spiral generaled by a track on a wooden drum. The rod the cutter was attached to was hardwood such as hickory. The most primitive cutters used paper shims for each pass. Later tools had a screw adjustment on a ramp. This was a small metal cutter assembly that attached to the wood pull rod.

This job was done this way on long rifles. A long pull. On a typical pistol barrel hand pulling is very fast.

I think we had this discussion a few months ago.

Custom Rifling Machine
   - guru - Tuesday, 03/12/13 04:34:47 EDT
warp pan : I have the enviable task of repairing a warped frying pan. Pan is 11 inch square 1 inch deep, steel. The deflection is in the center and up. After pondering the task I wonder if heating, then cooling quickly might remind the metal where it was, memory if you will. I have seen this in old auto-body books. Heat the area and quickly cool with crushed ice in a wet cloth.
   Willy Cunningham - Tuesday, 03/12/13 10:36:12 EDT
warp pan : What would you do?
   Willy Cunningham - Tuesday, 03/12/13 11:18:25 EDT
Firebrick Forges : Dear Fantasy Wryter,

Wayne Goddard has two books that describe what you'll need & need to do to create a firebrick forge. If you have not studied under anyone, I'd recommend doing so before trying this solo. Also, read the Guru's statement on Generation X sword making & be advised there is a real responsibility that extends to your Karma when you make knives. You can research it on Wikipedia. Firebricks can be tough to find. try furnace supply companies, and above all, work safely.
   Jon G - Tuesday, 03/12/13 11:48:17 EDT
Willy, Recommend NEW pan. You could try heating the pan to a red, pressing into shape and letting it cool slowly.
   - guru - Tuesday, 03/12/13 12:56:16 EDT
Sword Forges : The Oriental Trough Forge is used a lot for bladesmithing. It is easy to build and very flexible.

Oriental Trough Forge


These can built with two air inlets for a long heat and the ends blocked off to shorten or deepen the forge. When heating swords the open ends allow moving the sword in and out as it heats for a long hardening heat.

These are normally a charcoal forge. Charcoal needs ventilation but not a chimney in many cases.

These forges are traditionally used with the Oriental Box Bellows
   - guru - Tuesday, 03/12/13 13:21:02 EDT
where on the site can i find it : thanks for the help now i have something else to work with when it comes to ideas.
   FantasyWryter - Tuesday, 03/12/13 15:46:53 EDT
Warped pan : I have had some success with fixing pans with rubber and rawhide mallets hammered on an upright timber. The best way to fix a warped pan is to NOT get it warped in the first place! Two things to NEVER DO: don't slam a pan on the counter or stove, I don't care HOW angry you are at the wife. 2nd, NEVER run water on a hot pan..... ever! I'm pretty sure we're all metal workers of one sort or another here... what happens when water hits hot metal, guys?
   - Nippulini - Wednesday, 03/13/13 07:51:07 EDT
warped pan : willy,why not try heating the centre and cooling with a shot of compressed air . Safer. You could also expand the outer rim of the bottom by hammering( Lightly) all around , which would draw the centre down.
   wayne@nb - Wednesday, 03/13/13 17:10:13 EDT
Pots n Pans : If the pan is stamped sheet steel you have a pretty good chance of shrinking the hump out of it with a torch, hammer and dolly. (Check out an OLD auto body repair book for that technique.) If it's cast iron, you have an equally good chance of getting a two (or more) piece pan. With a heavy steel skillet, there's a chance it's a magnetic stainless; suitable for use as a dog food dish. What's your time worth?
   - 3 DOGS - Thursday, 03/14/13 00:14:23 EDT
Large format scans : Guru, what about getting a camera with high enough resolution, tape the drawing to a wall and just take a picture? Not as convenient as popping a sheet into a scanner and hitting "Go", but doable. I've done quickie "scans" like this on A-size with my phone when I needed to get something out on the run.

   - Marc - Thursday, 03/14/13 08:14:12 EDT
I should have been more specific... I have had success fixing warped ALUMINUM pans. I couldn't imagine a cast iron skillet warping, nor what would cause it. As noted, slamming a pan will deform it... slamming a cast skillet will result in many little pieces of pan. Stainless pan? I agree w/3dogs.... pet food dish, large ashtray, oversized paperweight, domestic abuse weapon (read angry wife)
   - Nippulini - Thursday, 03/14/13 08:41:43 EDT
F.Wryter: PLEASE remember that swordmaking was a very limited craft exceptionally few blacksmiths were swordmakers and they were often only located in a few select cities. Hollywood and many Fantasy books get it so wrong.

One other thing to remember is that you only want to heat the section of the sword that you can hammer on before it cools below working temperature---hammering "cold" steel can result in cracking. So a "typical" sword forge is generally not any different than a typical blacksmith's forge. The only time you do need a long linear heat is during heat treat and a trough forge works quite well for that.

Charcoal was the fuel used until the high/late Middle Ages and was used alongside of coal even unto this day---Japanese swords are traditionally forged with charcoal as the fuel.

And like the Japanese swordmaker's anvils a typical swordmaker's anvil is more lightly to be a rectangular solid than the London Pattern anvil that dates quite recently in the history of smithing.
   ThomasP - Thursday, 03/14/13 11:27:53 EDT
Photo vs. scans :
The blue full size scan above if from my standard size flat bed scanner at 180 DPI (scanner says 150) from a 50% optical reduction. This is about the lowest reasonable resolution that will reproduce and view an engineering drawing well. That results in approximately a 2300 x 1700 image prior to adding a border. In camera parlance that is 4 Megapixel for an 8.5 x 11.5 image. However, scanners and cameras are much different. Cameras only resolve to about 50% of the megapixels so an 8 megapixel photo is equal to about a 4 megapixel scan.

Our most common sized part drawings larger than A size in our machinery business were C and D sized (18x24" and 24x36" including border). All of my architectural shop drawings are D size at 1/4 scale.

At 150 DPI an 18x24 is 3600 x 2700 and a D size 5400 x 3600 pixels. That is a 19.4 megapixel image or 40 megapixel camera if the image were a perfect fit and they almost never are. There is also viewfinder alignment issues in most cameras where you lose an "inch" or so. Variable angle of view (zoom) on most cameras must be at maximum or 70% to focus on a flat plane. Otherwise there is significant focus drop off and spherical distortion outside the middle of the image.

So it takes a 40+ megapixel camera and a very careful setup to digitally image a D size drawing. We had many that were E size and a number that were R size (36" x N ft. greater than 4).

Currently there are 80 megapixel digital backs for professional cameras. So it IS possible using a professional setup and lights to get a clear reproducable E or F size engineering drawing as a bitmap. You can get a phone with a 40 MP digital camera now. But good luck getting more than snap shot quality with a fixed focus wide angle lens.

-----------------------------------------------

I've done a LOT of scanning and photography of text, drawings and art work over the years. Technology is constantly changing and improving. But you have to understand the various issues and differences in the technologies. Today most book digitizing is done with a camera rather than a flat bed scanner. However, the scanner still does a better job. But the camera is much faster and there are automated page turning systems for bulk processing (thanks to Google). If you want to display something on a computer screen as a common image (a relatively low resolution device) you can get away with images that are much lower quality than ones intended for reproduction. But if the image has fine details and small portions must be looked at on a computer screen to see them clearly then much higher resolution than normal is needed.

Results from digitizing are not always what you expect. When scanning books for our eBooks they were all scanned at high resolution and then reduced to the display size. The first one I did was a "children's" book with a large font and worked fine at 640 pixels wide and due to the color of the paper the images will enlarge much larger and still look crisp. The next book used just a slightly smaller font and the images had to be processed to white background due to the variations on each page and page to page. The result was it took 800 pixel wide images to get the same screen quality as the first. The third book I did had even smaller type and engraved images. The combination required 1040 pixel wide images. The difference between a 640 and a 1040 pixel image is huge in file size (thus time to load). But the big difference is how these images are perceived by the human eye.

Again, changes in technology have made a huge difference in the past 15 years that anvilfire has been on line. When we started we kept all our pages to no more than 640 pixels wide. Large images were 480x320 and when multiples were used on a page such as in our news they were no wider than 300 wide, the norm being 300x200 and no more than 5 on a page. The blue pint "thumbnail" above is larger at 320 px wide. Today I try to stick to 640 pixels as a maximum width of an image but I am keeping 1040 wide duplicates any time the original image is larger. I wish I had kept my higher resolution originals from the early days but I was not thinking about a time when we could stream full screen video back when I was fighting with a dial up modem on a cranky rural telephone line.
   - guru - Thursday, 03/14/13 11:46:19 EDT
big scanners : all of the engineering dept's I have worked in in the last 12 years had large scanner printers. These rolled the drawing over the scanner and would also make electrostatic prints. They were sized to handle up to a D. Not however cheap.
   ptree - Thursday, 03/14/13 18:15:46 EDT
Engineering Scanners : My search the other day for large scale scanners or services was a dead end due to the terms I was using. I kept finding small image scanning rather than that for engineering drawings. Indeed they do make roll scanners (I knew they did, just couldn't find them). But at about $10,000 for one its a long way from my budget. I found a place that offers scanning service relatively close by and will get some quotes. However, the last time I had optical reductions made they were not cheap. But the big Xerox, machines to do those jobs were $100,000 machines in the 1980's and took a ton of maintenance. Maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised. . .

I have several box files of roll drawings that I'd like to digitize and then scrap most of the prints, keeping only the few original mylars until they rot. Many of the prints are copies of originals I no longer have and would like more permanent versions. Then there are my Dad's files. . . designs, inventions. . . many dating to the 1960's. Between Dad's and my collection it takes a small storage shed to house them.

A lot of this stuff will probably never be referred to again. . but we sold a lot of equipment that folks MIGHT want service on in the next decade. . .
   - guru - Friday, 03/15/13 00:14:52 EDT
Archival Drawings :
Back in the early 1980's I bought an old overhead flat belt drive South Bend Lathe. It had a broken reversing shifter casting and wrecked gears on same. I called South Bend to ask about parts and/or drawings. The guy in the parts department said that they had just gotten rid of all those old linen drawings for all those old machines the year before. . .

I was a bit disappointed but did what anyone does with an orphaned machine they want repaired, I reverse engineered the parts and made them myself. I made the replacement casting and shafts, and I detailed the gears and had a local shop make them. The spindle gear was the real trick. It was held on by a gentle press fit. Not a light press fit, not a gear puller heavy press fit, but one that would come on and off with a gentle tap of a wood mallet. I did a LOT of measuring and a lot of research on fits. Then I specified it with a +/- .0002" tolerance. I was amazed that the job shop hit it on the nose. Everything fit great. All my drawings were pencil sketches that I did not save or formalize. . . Wish I had.

By the mid 1990's and the loss of most of their business to Taiwan, South Bend found a home market in helping support their old machines. . . The same ones they had destroyed most of the drawings of that I had called about.

There are drawings in existence and still in use for four of the old mechanical power hammer companies and two of the electro-pneumatic hammer companies who are all out of business. Helping keep 50 to 100 year old machinery alive.

So I am always loathe to abandon any of our machinery drawings. But converting them to digital files would make them much easier to store, file, retrieve and reproduce if the need ever comes. AND Today, even if I do not make formal CAD drawings for some items I always scan my hand drawings and save the digitized versions.

Punch Holder by Jock Dempsey
Digitized Hand Sketch from iForge Presses Demo
   - guru - Friday, 03/15/13 00:58:49 EDT
Machine drawings : When I worked in the industrial forging businesses, I found that the industrial machines were often supported by companies that had formerly been industrial maintenance and rigging companies. They would buy the rights, inventory and drawings of the company that had formerly specialized in. For instance, the drawings for an ACME upsetter will show all of the bore sizes and bearing sizes for the machine as made. In these large old mnachines the bearing were special made and no two machines will have interchangable bearings and shafts. And as the machines are overhauled the drawings need to be updater to reflect the as overhauled demensions. A set of drawings for the machine you have is almost priceless. Otherwise when overhauling you have to measure everything and wait for the bearings to be made. A set of rear shaft bearings for a 9" Upsetter which are 10" id and 14" od made to fit will take about 13 months to have made unless you are willing to pay an extra $10,000 to get on the fast delivery list and then it only takes 6 months.
I have seen other "Groups" that will buy all the inventory and drawings for a machine tool builder when they go out of biz, and then resell the parts and will have anything made from the prints on order.
Knowing who has the inventory and drawings for you orphan is the priceless knowledge then.
Ptree who has had a shop with 450 machine tools, 300+ that were orphans.
   ptree - Friday, 03/15/13 06:29:47 EDT
I noticed no one is talking about projectors (or did I miss it?). I remember in college graphic design courses that using a projected image on a wall (or floor) is the best way to convert ratios without calculations. Projected images can be manipulated in so many ways, it should be commented upon. There is one metal artist in LA who does tattoo flash style work with rebar that is done with the projector technique. Setup the image, adjust to ratio, setup layout, work!
   - Nippulini - Friday, 03/15/13 07:15:39 EDT
Opaque Projectors, large and small images :
When my ex moved from one of the old elementary schools that everything from "the good old days" to a modern new school with few really good tools the one thing she missed was the big old Opaque Projector. The old school had the same model I remember from high school, a huge big black trapezoidal box with a 4" diameter projector lens on the front. Sit the projector over the art you wanted to enlarge and it would project the image up to wall size in normal light and larger in the dark. She used it for many school projects. It had its limitations accepting a maximum of up to about 12 x 14" work.

Some artists use slide projectors to create drawings and paintings. This produces "photo real" images. The problem with this method is that a camera sees things differently than the human eye. The perspective is photographic rather than artistic. Many artists can tell the difference at a glance, I know I can.

For engineering illustration purposes we have reduced and enlarged drawings using large commercial and office copiers. But for accurate drawings to specific scale we would redraw them by hand. A lot of my job in the last years was reverse engineering. This was often done from photos, manual illustrations and hand sketches. The only way to put this all together in a meaningful way was a true scale drawing. The last of these was an eight foot long 36" wide drawing at 1/4 scale.

For accurate large scale prints from CAD there are "tiling" utilities that will print a drawing in pieces that can be glued or taped together. I've made large drawings that were taped together from dozens of 8.5x11" sheets and then reproduced on large scale copiers. The results look like an original plot. IF I had many of these to do it would be cheaper to buy a plotter.

   - guru - Friday, 03/15/13 12:18:53 EDT
Projectors : When I was in the sign business we used overhead transparency projectors a lot. Much brighter than an opaque projector so easier to use. Cheaper, too. I have one still, and use it to scale up patterns for railings, gates, grilles, etc.

I just take my concept drawing and copy it onto clear polyester film with a Xerox machine or, in most cases these days, my drawings are digital and I print them on clear film with my laser printer. Slap it on the overhead and project it on the pattern table and trace. Quick and easy, and cheap if you can find a used overhead projector and have a laser printer.
   Rich Waugh - Friday, 03/15/13 12:37:08 EDT
Projectors : Sure, Rich. Go ahead and blab it all over the internet! Now, EVERYbody will know how we did the Sistine Chapel ceiling!!!!:)
   - 3DOGS - Friday, 03/15/13 15:07:13 EDT
Transferring Images : Many use a grid to scale up art or drawings. As an artist I've found it much easier to do it by sight. I've done everything from poster to wall size. However, if I had to scale something up to very large scale such as a multi-story building mural I would use a grid.
   - guru - Monday, 03/18/13 12:45:49 EDT
Busted anvil : Is there anyone out there I could send pic of my anvil too to instruct me on how to fix or if I even need to fix
   Will - Monday, 03/18/13 20:09:26 EDT
forge : I'm building a forge and the bottom of the fire pot is 2 - 3/4 inch pieces of steel plate. When I attach the pipe/flange would it be better to drill through the 1.5 inch steel and use nuts and bolts or better to tap it bolt it from the bottom.
   jeff s. - Monday, 03/18/13 22:26:47 EDT
forge : Through bolting is OK and much easier. The whole thing will rust up in short order anyway, so a drilled & tapped assembly would become rust solid.
Through bolts could be broken off & pounded out if you ever wanted to re-configure your set-up.
Might I ask, unless you are building a monster size, Why 2 plates of 3/4"? Thats insanely thick for a firepot.
I assume its some steel scrap you had laying about??
One plate 3/4 thick would still be serious overkill.
   - Sven - Tuesday, 03/19/13 05:09:12 EDT
Forge : I also do not understand the two layers of steel plate. While these will undoubted hold up the problem with laminated plates in a coal forge is that rust is a huge problem. Rust between plates will expand and force the plates apart, even bending them, possibly breaking welds. A bowed flange will leak and snug fitting bolts or studs will become jammed in their holes.

As mentioned, bolts in this situation become a mess due to rust. I use stainless bolts, lubricated with Never-Seize, with nuts on the bottom.
   - guru - Tuesday, 03/19/13 08:25:34 EDT
Anvil Repair :
Will, email coming your way.
   - guru - Tuesday, 03/19/13 08:29:40 EDT
re: forge : Thanks so much for the advise on my forge. Let me explain the double plate. I built the fire pot from plans I saw on the "shady grove" web site. The first plate is the bottom of the fire pot. The second plate has a grove cut in it for the 1/2 rod/handle for the clinker breaker. My idea is that that plate will be sandwiched between another plate (1.4 inch this time)that will have a pipe for the air attached to it. All three will be bolted together. Now, if that is over kill, do you think it would be ok to cut a 1/2 inch grove in the bottom of the fire pot plate and just bolt pipe flange to fire pot.
   jeff s. - Wednesday, 03/20/13 12:53:07 EDT
Forge : First, I always recommend you contact the maker of plans if you have questions.

I think the two 3/4" plates are over-kill. The one plate with the groove as you suggest should hold up fine. Leave lots of clearance for the rod to rotate in.
   - guru - Wednesday, 03/20/13 16:23:38 EDT
anvil : what material are american scale co. anvils made of ?
   vern kelderman - Wednesday, 03/20/13 18:55:34 EDT
forge : When I looked at the shady grove website, the plans I saw called for 1/4" plate, not 3/4".
   Rich Waugh - Wednesday, 03/20/13 19:10:00 EDT
Question about forges : We have a problem at the Sutter's Mill blacksmith shop that is probably difficult to solve in words.

We have two forges. One built in made out of bricks and one rather large portable on wheels. The working parts of the forges are almost the same. Firepot close, clinker breaker identical (3 sided roller), the blowers are identical, and both have bottom blast w drop through ash dump. The ash dumps are slightly different - the built in is perfectly straight and the portable has about a 1 inch deviation. Both get exactly the same coal.

The built in works good. The portable just doesn't work well - usually.

The portable always seems to have a blockage that acts like dust. Working the clinker breaker or dumping the ash does not help. I have pulled the fire and the bottom of the firepot is kind of blocked up w "ash - sort of". It is not fine, but rather a bed of burning coals about the size of a large pea. You would think the blast could pass through such a coarse screen, and maybe it does, only maybe diffuse.

Bluntly, getting good heat is difficult. HOWEVER, if you mess w it for a couple hours and get everything just right it will burn your steel in a minute. The real problem is we have never figured out what we have done to (temporarily) fix the thing.

Any comments?
   - Rudy - Wednesday, 03/20/13 23:19:44 EDT
Rudy. Forge impaction : I find that this clogging occurs occasionally with almost all bottom blast forges, even moreso with ones that have the three sided tuyere valve. In that sense, we're always working against gravity. I keep a straight poker at the hearth and I will probe and shake the bottom of the fire with it. Lifting the fire and shaking it will help. That should be combined with a little rotation of the tuyere valve.

The old Buffalo rectangular firepot had a slightly ellipsoidal cross-sectioned tuyere valve with a rectanglar hole through the middle. I used them for years before they went off the market. I thought the design was better than the triangular shape that we often see nowadays.
   Frank Turley - Thursday, 03/21/13 08:20:29 EDT
Forge Clogging :
I prefer a forge with NO grate, grid, clinker breaker. . . Even with a 1-3/4" hole they will clog. I use a special curved poker (about 10" radius) with a point on the end to clear the hole, create a vent through the fire, shove clinkers down the dump and fish larger clinkers out.

All the forges I've used with ball type clinker breakers needed almost constant movement PLUS poking around in the fire with my curved fire poker.

A friend of mine uses a fire pot with a 2" square hole and a loose bar across the opening to act as a grate. Being loose it can be wiggled around, lifted out and generally blocks less than other grates. I usually end up dropping it into the asj dump. . . But it works for him.

The above said, I'm sure you know my feelings about stupid little grates with little drilled holes. . .

----------------------------------------

As to the two forges described in the question are you sure the blowers are the same output (not choked downed, valved, clogged). Higher pressure blowers will blow fine ash out of the fire. Wide open they can blast the entire fire out of the forge. An underpowered or blocked blower will make a hot fire but cannot blow the ash out.

That little "1" deviation is a lot depending on the what you mean by deviation. It can change air flow, turbulence, ash clearance. If the ash dump is different then it could fill up sooner than the other.

LAST two items: The masonry of a "built in" forge keeps the fire pot hotter if the pot is bedded in or a close fit. Since the heat is concentrated at the bottom of the fire pot where the problem is then temperature could make a difference.

The two forges also have different chimneys which handle ash and smoke differently thus the fire bed.
   - guru - Thursday, 03/21/13 13:58:36 EDT
Gate/Fence posts :
Hi Jock, I haven't posted here in a long time. I've been doing more welding than blacksmithing for a few years. I met you at the LaCrosse Abana conference when I was more involved in Blacksmithing and your website. I just have a question about gate posts. I'm replacing some rotted out pressure treated posts with steel and I'm wondering what the best protection is for steel posts these days. I'm assuming galvanization but I haven't kept up with advances in coatings so I thought I would ask this question here.
Thank You
Chris
   Chris - Thursday, 03/21/13 16:11:48 EDT
clinker breakers : My shop forge has a factory type fire pot that has a sort of inverted cup clinker breaker. Has several "Cats eys" slots. When the fire gets a little blocked one full rotation of the clinker breaker and all of the ask and most of the clinker fall in the ash dump, and that swings and lets the mess fall out and then the fire is fine. My traveling forges, both fabricated by me do not have clinker breakers. The little forge had a rivet forge type cast grate, and my big forge, that we do the 3" square split crosses in has a bar grate made from 416 SS. It has locating legs so that it stays in the tuyre pipe and works great. That one we do have to hook out a big clinker maybe once in 3 hours of forging, but then we will have burned maybe 30-40# of coal at that point.
   ptree - Friday, 03/22/13 06:27:42 EDT
You know, I've NEVER used a solid fuel forge. It would be near impossible to find any blacksmithing reference books WITHOUT noting how to run a solid fuel forge. That in mind, pretty much every book I have lists drilling holes for the grate. Now, again noting my inexperience with this type of fire, I DO smoke from pipes. I prefer stainless screens, but the only type available have too tight a gap. They clog up with tar within 2 or 3 days! I make thin pokers from 304 steel and open up the spaces in the screen. Eventually the holes get so large that small chunks of tar (smoking clinker) pull through. Grr! I've hear tell of analogies of the bowl of a smoking pipe related to a forge....
   - Nippulini - Friday, 03/22/13 07:07:51 EDT
Gate/Fence posts : Chris, You are right about the galvanization. Many government contracts require it for the part set in concrete or the earth and 6" above. The next best thing is cold galvanizing (zinc powder paint). They regular or neutral primer and your top coat.

Note that for a time everyone was on the powder coat bandwagon. However, it is not suitable for outdoor forged work with a long life. There have been a lot of failures and the finish cannot be repaired in place. This may have to do with work that is not sufficiently cleaned such as by sandblasting and then improperly handled without cotton gloves (often an impracticality on large pieces). Whatever the reason, it has not been a suitable finish as applied in most cases.
   - guru - Friday, 03/22/13 10:14:13 EDT
Forge problem : Another smith and I have decided to spend a couple hours playing w the forges and "carefully" noting differences in behavior. Blast, heat, etc.

However, I would like to try turning the problem forge into a temporary side blast to see if the problem in this forge is inherent w the tuyere.

Any suggestion on how to do that w/o rebulding the whole thing? An aluminum pipe from the blower, across the flat and down one side of the fire pot?

ALSO: In a properly managed fire how much of the "ash" that falls through is still good coal? We get a lot of really small stuff that will still burn, and a surprising amount of larger that is still burning (goes out fast).

Maybe we just don't know what we're doing.
   - Rudy - Friday, 03/22/13 12:01:14 EDT
Forges :
Rudy, Converting the forge the way you describe will not replicate a side blast and demonstrate nothing.

Ash/Waste: In coal forges a high percentage of what goes down the ash dump is fine coke and some coal. Some smiths sort through the waste and pick out the coke and coal before dumping the ash. Its good apprentice work. Other smiths just take their lumps (yes a pun) and accept the losses.

A coal forge is inherently wasteful due to needing run optimally clean and hot in a specific zone, particularly when forge welding. If you are just making a big fire for bending it is more efficient(using up more of the fuel).
   - guru - Friday, 03/22/13 13:42:21 EDT
Coal vs. Clinker : A couple of sieves, with rat-wire and screening, are handy to pick out the coal from the ash and clinker. The trick is to strike a balance between economy and practicality. There comes a point where you just have to dump the fines.

I do find clinker to be useful in filling small potholes in the gravel farm road. I think Frank Turley had an entire driveway made of clinker when I dropped by a number of years ago (~15 - 20).
   Bruce Blackistone -Atli- - Friday, 03/22/13 19:16:50 EDT
Gate/Fence posts : Thanks guru, I'll stick with galvanized. I learned here how to prepare for painting my other outdoor projects that are not galvanized and that information has served me well.
   chris smith - Saturday, 03/23/13 07:45:09 EDT
Arc-welding radiation hazards : Is it of any use to wear a lead reinforced leather apron when arc-welding for extended periods of time? I've been told around here (Argentina) that radiation from the arc can damage the southernmost parts of us men (infertility/cancer).
As far as I've read or learned about it (including the AWS ANSI_Z49, wich only mentions using clothes that are hard to catch on fire, and to avoid skin burns due to UV radiation) theres is nothing related to problems or injuries in terms of fertility or the like. Behind a normal leather apron it shouldn't be riskier than taking a sunbath of an hour I guess?

I'm betting this is nothing more than a local myth, but I just wanted to be sure, just in case.

Thanks in advance. (It is really uncomfortable to carry 1~2 kg of lead around the neck while moving around the shop).
   - Javier B. - Sunday, 03/24/13 00:00:38 EDT
Arc-welding radiation hazards : Hi Javier, Had to laugh...
Yes your concern is a myth. The radiation emitted by arcwelding is of such wavelength and intensity its easily stopped by any opaque material.
Leather or heavy cloth is perfect for that.
   - Sven - Sunday, 03/24/13 01:08:49 EDT
Arc-Welding Hazards :
As Sven noted, your concerns are a myth. Arc welding does not produce any of the ionizing radiations (alpha, beta, gamma) or x-rays.

Issues that are not a myth.

All arc welding produces infrared and ultraviolet radiation. Both can permanently damage the eyes. Wearing recommended eye protection is always the safe and healthy way to work. Squinting and looking another direction are very bad practices. The UV can cause burns to the skin in a short time so covering up properly is also recommended. You can get burns from gaps in long sleeve cuffs, shirts not buttoned completely AND burnt holes in your favorite welding shirt. . .

All arc welding produces strong magnetic fields. Certain types of magnetic fields accelerate bone growth and could possibly produce other effects. There are no proven reports of health issues but I would not wrap cables around parts of one's body.

The magnetic fields of arc welding cables, more so in high frequency arc welding (TIG), can produce heat where cables cross OR are coiled. Cables in use should not be coiled. If you have very long cables that are stored coiled up, it is best that they are by-passed using shorted cables for short distances.

Cables should not cross or be laid over portable electric tools, especially those that are connected to power. Current induced in the motor windings can produce heat in the tool and possibly cause faults in the electric supply. I've had these induced currents heat the cord of a grinder that was lying on a steel welding bench with the TIG cable crossing the grinder.

While not a health hazard one must be careful about stray currents when welding on machinery. Arc burns across ball bearings are a very common failure in machinery that has bee welded upon. Connect the ground VERY tightly and as close as possible to the weld. I've seen the flexible metal conduit power cable on a machine turn red, melt the insulation on the enclosed wires and short out the wires due to a loose welding ground connector.

Arc burns to flesh from high frequency TIG are different from other burns (think Klingon Disruptor) and heal much slower than other burns.

Burns from sputter balls are obvious but sputter balls can also be a slipping hazard on a smooth concrete floor. They can be nearly as slippery as ice. Besides a falling hazard I've had a half ton work bench that was very stable easily slide across a sputter ball covered floor when it was leaned upon.
   - guru - Sunday, 03/24/13 02:30:01 EDT
Arc-welding radiation hazards : Hi Javier B, I fully understand your concerns. I think that you ought to take the issue very seriously. However, I think that your remedy of hanging two or three pounds of lead around your neck may be misplaced. I think that a more effective approach would be to take specific measurements and manufacture in lead pipe and sheet lead a custom-made codpiece. It would be interesting exercise in repousse work. Secure attachment may require the use of a jubilee clip. (For some of us, one of these may allow us to forge for longer periods at the anvil without interruption after 2 cups of coffee.) Nippulini may be able to advise further on how best to make fixing attachments. In your region you may well get away with just one protective garment for all year round use. Those of us in more northern climes may have to make summer/winter versions with corresponding sizing adjustments, maybe the offcuts from the summer version will provide enough material for the winter items. Coldweather versions may require insulation. I would recommend lambswool rather than rockwool. Photos of your finished work may need to be posted on another website.
   - Chris E - Sunday, 03/24/13 04:08:42 EDT
Radiation Shielding : Chris, Having worked in the nuclear industry I cannot stand by and not comment on your suggested use of lead. The fact is that almost any metal provides radiation shielding without the toxicity of lead. Gold, silver, copper, tin, platinum would all do. However, for economy and ease of fabrication an equal weight of steel can replace lead.

However, due to its very high density, ease of working, corrosion resistance and wonderful color I would recommend gold for such an important piece of personal protection. ;)
   - guru - Sunday, 03/24/13 16:16:01 EDT
hydraulic press : hi im thinking of buying a press for hot stamping,hot and cold forming
and punching holes etc could anyone recommend what tonnage i would need on the press?would i want a fast acting one?c frame or H frame ?
If anyone has any advice that would be great cherio spencer
   spencer - Sunday, 03/24/13 16:36:52 EDT
Press : Spencer,

Your question cannot be answered as asked. We would have to know what type and size stock you plan to punch, size of the punchings, and required work flow (pieces per hour). That's just for the cold punching.

Hot stamping? What size die, what depth, what stock, are there requirements for reverse extrusion? This all affects press size.

Similar issues with cold and hot forming - we gotta know the details to give meaningful advice.
   Rich Waugh - Sunday, 03/24/13 17:42:52 EDT
TONNAGE :
Spencer, In a general purpose shop, as much as you can afford and as fast as you can afford. The tendency is that if you have a machine of any type then you will push it to its limits.

If a machine is to be used for a specific purpose or size/class of work in production then it is much more efficient to purchase a machine no bigger than necessary or 1.2 to 1.5 times larger for durability. Efficiency is measured in the cost of the machine, the cost of operation (power required) and ease of use due to being the right size for the job.

Size is also based on practicality and convenience. In every shop you have a limited amount of power. 10HP is the usual limit for a single motor in a rural or residential area (check with your power company). Larger motors often demand 3PH power and or soft start devices to prevent line surge. There are many small garage shops that do not even have 220/240 volt power.

Years ago I built a manual 20 ton hydraulic press for a specific job. I have used it for many jobs over the years. Originally designed to punch 3" blanks in 16ga steel plate it has been used to punch smaller disks in brass, slots in stainless, make assorted bends and straighten tools (pry bars, wrench handles).

Since then I have had jobs where I needed 50 tons. One day I hope to modify the press for a 50T cylinder and increase the head space. But the cost of a good quality 50T bottle jack is significant ($600) for an occasional use item in a non-production shop. When I built the press money was a consideration and it still is.

Technology has changed a great deal since I built that press. I built it for blanking candle cup pans in heavy gauge material. Today you can have tens of thousands of blanks of every size cut using laser cutting for less than the cost of the press. So blanking is of less importance than other jobs.

Hydraulic presses an be fast or slow. Slow takes advantage of the great force multiplication of hydraulics and requires little energy. Fast requires more energy and can be significant.

For cold work the speed of the press is only a productivity consideration. High cycle times are not important if you only need to make hundreds of parts but may be a consideration if you need to make thousands of parts. For hot work speed is an important consideration. The longer the dies are in contact with the work the hotter they get and the colder the work. The lighter the work the faster it cools.

Frame shape depends on the type of work. H frames are more accurate and recommended for punching with precision dies. C frames have more flexible access but must be much heavier to reduce flexing or bending.

Either frame can be TOO springy. When a press frame flexes it is storing energy. Springy press frames can result in misaligned work shooting out of the press if the work or dies shift. When there is a lot of flex (distance) it can propel a part with much forge. Cheap auto press type frames can flex 3/8 to 1/2" and suddenly send parts flying. A heavier cast frame may only flex a few thousandths of an inch. I prefer well designed press frames that flex very little.
   - guru - Sunday, 03/24/13 19:43:02 EDT
Arc-welding : Well at least I got some laughs out of it :). Yes I was (almost) sure it was a complete myth.

Nevertheless I ought to try and make the golden codpiece, must be a great adition to everyday clothing, specially when in public.

Thanks for the answers, I might turn that lead into a base for small repuosse work.
   - Javier B. - Sunday, 03/24/13 21:17:24 EDT
More about Radiation : Javier, You mentioned sun exposure. At high altitudes this is actually worse than any possible welding exposures. Along with white light, infrared and ultraviolet the sun produces x-rays, gamma rays and radio waves. Together these are collectively called cosmic radiation. The gamma rays are the same highly penetrating radiation produced by radioactive materials, particularly nuclear fuel and waste material. This is the majority of what nuclear workers are exposed to.

People who live at high elevations are exposed to more radiation from the sun in a year than nuclear workers are allowed in a year. The same applies to airline pilots and crew.

So, you need solar exposure to produce vitamin D (needed to metabolize calcium properly) but you do not want that exposure at high altitude or you have a greater chance of radiation induced cancers. Such is human existence.
   - guru - Monday, 03/25/13 02:48:07 EDT
Star Foundry 50 : I have just purchased a Star 50 but do not have all the parts and have to reassemble what i have. The gibs on the tup have been broken but patched up. I do not have the arms from the spring to the gibs nor do I know what the connection looks like. I can either make a boot around the tup with either new gibs or get a new tup made up. Does anyone have a picture of a Star in its assembled state showing how the arms cnnect to the gibs. Also, photos of all the working would be appreciated. i will have to make new bushes (babbits) and a clutch assembly. I am happy to exchange photos of what i have.
   Steve Finnane - Monday, 03/25/13 04:25:19 EDT
Cod piece and such : Now if Javier needed this piece to be attached via piercings, we need to ensure that no bimetallic corrosion can take place. seeing as how the piercings will be 316L steel, in a warm damp slightly alkaline environment, who knows?

Seriously.... Javier, if you are truly worried about the effects of welding and reproductive ability, you should look into fumes and spatter. Inhalation of welding fumes, metal oxides and gasses can be very detrimental to MANY living systems, and yes, specifically reproductive organs. In addition to, cancer, Parkinsons, epilepsy, lung disorders, and so on. I'm sure Jock can give us a list of more.
   - Nippulini - Monday, 03/25/13 07:02:10 EDT
Star Foundry 50 : Steve, I have a set of photos sent by a reader years ago that I never got around to publishing. Here is the spring and links.

Star power hammer linkage


Star Power Hammer advertisment
None of the photos I have clearly show the toggle connection to the ram (tup). Unless there is a slot in the middle that the arms are inserted through I believe that they were installed with one bend and then the other bent in place.

Note in the above photo that the toggle arms are bent from striking the guides. This is due to having too short of dies installed. The dies are the downward "stop" and should prevent the toggle arms from striking the guides. This is a problem in almost all mechanical hammers.

If the ram (tup) has been broken at the place where the toggle arms attach then I would consider either making a new part from steel OR doing a bolt on repair with steel parts.

GIBS In the US, Gibs are the adjustable metal inserts that contact a dovetail slide. Gibs can be either screw adjustable or tapered and adjusted linearly.

The original Star clutch was similar to a Little Giant Cone clutch. These are expensive to make and are high maintenance. I would recommend making a slack belt clutch system. Slack belt clutches have the entire length of the belt as friction material and have been proven to be smooth and reliable.

I'll send you the other photos by mail.
   - guru - Monday, 03/25/13 09:00:28 EDT
Star hammers : I believe that fist photo is of my own Star. I will remark that I am not the one who bent the toggle arms, it was that way when I got it! The guru is correct in that the arms seem to have been inserted with one bend and then bent afterwards, there is no slot in the tup.

The spring pack on mine was rebuilt several years ago by a previous owner when the eye on one end broke. The good thing about that is that he didn't even notice, unlike when the spring on a Little Giant explodes.

There are no gibs as such on that style of Star, the wraparound guide and the corresponding groove in the frame casting are the ways. Wear adjustment is by means of two set screws on the back of the guide assembly to tighten it to the frame.

A later variant of the Star has guides similar to a new-pattern Little Giant. The clutch on all of them is a two-block type in which the spider does engage the flywheel. Not exactly the same as the cone clutch, but similar.

If you need more photos, assuming yours has the same guide setup, let me know and I'll take them. Note that my email does not display correctly with this system. Yours seems to, so I'll reply via email if you need it.

   Alan-L - Monday, 03/25/13 11:32:36 EDT
Star Foundry 50 : Alan, I thought those were of your hammer. I mailed him the rest of the photos you sent me. What he was calling "gibs" are the corners that hold the toogle arms.

Glade to know the toogle arms are put on the way I thought.

To repair this I suggested making a new ram or a steel repair part and fitting it to the ram and bolting it on. The top of the ram would need to be machined true and the sides below the toggle receptor holes relieved about 3/8" (11mm). The repair cap would be bolted from the top and sides with a bunch of bolts. The shape of the cap would be a geometry that would have to be made on a vertical milling machine and about half the material machined away. It might be simpler to make an all new ram from mild steel. . .

The other type of Star hammer you mentioned with the dovetail guides cut in the frame had a deep groove between the two sides of the guides. Bolts sprung the cast iron frame to adjust the guides. All I've seen were broken. It was a bad design - springing cast iron.
   - guru - Monday, 03/25/13 14:31:50 EDT
Star hammer again : If the corners of the ram were broken where the toggles go through that's exactly what I'd suggest doing. The ram itself appears to be steel rather than cast, a simple square block set on the diagonal. I'd cut off the top and true it, then bolt a new block on top with the toggle arm holes milled and bushed with oilite or plain bronze bearings with oil grooves. Not enough room there to just bolt on pillow blocks.

I'd do a cap block rather than an all-new ram if only to avoid milling and filing a new dovetail for the top die. Although bolt-on dies could be handy...but that would mean making a die holder to fit the cast dovetail in the frame for the bottom die.

I'm sure the grease fittings on mine replaced oil holes, but the heavy grease seems to work well in that location.

Star was never an expensive hammer. They weigh about the same as a 25lb Little Giant even with the 50lb rating. Not nearly as much iron in the frame.

Regardless, mine still runs like a sewing machine as long as it's oily enough! Not bad for 80+ years of use.

As I said, if you or Steve need detail shots just let me know.
   Alan-L - Monday, 03/25/13 15:05:56 EDT
Busted anvil :
anvil with broken heel
Peter Wright with Broken Heel


This is a common break on many anvils. I've seen it on various English anvils and on American anvils including Fisher-Norris Eagle anvils. The Old English anvil I have like this I just use as-is. I keep it for guests and students. I've seen others cut off at the hardy hole resulting in a plain holeless anvil. I consider the broken anvil an educational device. YES, anvils can be worn out, broken, destroyed. . .

On this wrought iron bodied anvil the best repair is weld buildup. That is a lot to build up but that is the best way to go. Normally you would preheat any face welding on an anvil but in this case you can start off the face and let the arc welding preheat the steel face.

Step #1) Clean off all rust on the affected area.

Step #2) Fit a graphite or copper plug in the hardy hole and pritchel hole rising above the finished surface (cut fire brick could also be used). These will leave you smooth clean holes when finished. You can also block up on the outside surfaces of the sides and end with fire brick to contain the weld which will want to run over the sides.

Step #3) Start welding. For fill up to about 1/4" from the finished surface an E7024 or MIG works well. As noted start OFF the steel face on the wrought iron. Note that wrought iron contains a lot of slag that will melt and run off. This should be chipped away before a second pass. Same with welding slag if using coated rods. As the weld beads are run along the steel face plate they should be peened as they cool to prevent shrink cracks in the steel face. Each pass should alternate in direction.

Step #4) The top surface of the face can be made with hard facing rod OR an E9024 or E10024. This should require no more than one or two passes. At the joint between the new and the old face a swirling motion should be applied to produce a blend of the two materials. Peen well.

Step #5) Remove plugs and bricks, touch up welds as needed.

Step #6) grind surfaces smooth. Touch up welds again as needed.

ALTERNATE METHOD:

Step #1) Cut off broken area about 3/4" from face break. Grind surfaces clean.

Step #2) Make a replacement heal block from mild steel, SAE 1040, or 4140. Drill the pritichel hole and fit around hardy hole. Grind top and bottom weld zones so that 100% penetrating welds can be made. This will requires some tricky geometry around the hardy hole with a small gap in the prep. Grind sides along 3/4" step for about 1/2" deep weld.

Step #3) Weld bottom weld with E6013 or E7024 peening and cleaning between each pass.

Step #4) Weld root and fill weld between new and old face with E7024. Then last (surface) passes with high strength rods as above.

Step #5) Weld sides and do touch up.

Step #6) Grind to finish, Touch up as necessary.

BOTH METHODS require skill fitting, welding and cleaning. Weld slag that is not cleaned out will cause holes all the way to the surface. Clean with a chipper, needle scaler and power wire brush between each weld bead. Peen hard steel weld zones with a small ball peen hammer or dull chipping hammer. Weld beads that get out of control or create undercuts should be ground before the next pass. All this needs to be done rapidly and efficiently to prevent loss of heat.

Any honest repaired anvil will be stamped by the repairman. "REPAIRED YYYY" with or without the repair persons name.

Good Luck!
   - guru - Monday, 03/25/13 15:39:58 EDT
Anvil Repairs :
Over the years many methods have been used to repair anvils. A number are covered in Practical Blacksmithing but this was before arc welding. At one time several of the anvil factories did anvil repairs and this is often evidenced by odd looking anvils where a new face was welded over the old resulting in a high step OR the face machined resulting in a low or no step. Often a low or no step situation was fixed by grinding down the step producing a sloped step which indicates an obvious repair.

None of the repairs were marked as I suggest. I find this odd since during the same era if a machine tool was repaired or rebuilt by the factory an R was added to the serial number and often a date.

Among some of the repair methods included in Practical Blacksmithing was the replacement of a horn by creating a large dovetail in the body of the anvil and making a replacement horn with a matching slightly oversized dovetail which was then forced into place. . . I question if this was ever done.

One repair that I saw on a very old anvil was a ring fitted to the horn with bolts extending to the waist on the opposite side clamping the horn on. It looked sort of like a nursing brassiere for an anvil. . . I think Steve Prillowitz picked up this anvil as a curiosity.
   - guru - Monday, 03/25/13 16:10:05 EDT
Anvil Repair : : When using hardfacing rod on repair make sure first it can take impact ,some are very hard and not made to take impact and will chip easier than the other. Your welding supplier should be able to help you with that
   Tom-L - Tuesday, 03/26/13 11:18:33 EDT
Hard Facing Rods :
These are almost universally designed to be abrasion resistant under very hard use conditions such as on the edges of earth moving equipment buckets and blades. They are designed to be overlaid onto steels that are relatively much softer and less likely to crack, break or chip.
   - guru - Tuesday, 03/26/13 19:32:55 EDT
I've had lots of success with Wearshield hard facing rod. Sometimes I peen the weld in while still hot. I normally use this for refacing chipped edges. build up, then grind and file down. The slag on this is deadly! It sounds like bullets whizzing past your face. I lay down a bead, then walk away so I don't get hit by hot shrapnel.
   - Nippulini - Tuesday, 03/26/13 20:54:36 EDT
starting out : i recently started out blacksmithing and need to work on my hammer time,what would be some good begginer progects
   blr2001 - Tuesday, 03/26/13 20:56:56 EDT
sorry mispelled projects
   blr2001 - Tuesday, 03/26/13 20:59:16 EDT
Projects :
See our iForge How-To page.

Simple hooks with tapered points that are then scrolled are good practice. In small stock they should only take a couple heats. Make a few hundred and you get pretty good practice.

I forge leaves in 1/2" square stock as practice. Point, neck, draw stem, flatten, shape. . . This is an easy part to make but will tire a beginner. Make one a day for a week, then two a day, and after a couple weeks your strength will be built up and hammer control greatly improved.
   - guru - Wednesday, 03/27/13 00:10:50 EDT
Weld Peening : I'm a self-taught welder and I have peened welds as the puddle chills. I've used the point of my chipping hammer. I don't think the physical act of peening is explained in any of my welding books, and the use of the term "peen" may be misleading. As a smith, I always thing of ball peen or cross peen. How to peen a weld?
   Frank Turley - Wednesday, 03/27/13 07:54:18 EDT
Peening helps to relieve the stresses created from differential cooling. If a large complex casting is made, they are often seasoned in the weather for a year, and the repeated heating and cooling helps to do the same thing, and most stress cracks will develop during this seasoning and thus not make it to market. IH had a huge foundry in Louisville and had mountains of casting rusting in the weather as they seasoned. Another method is to strike the cooling casting with wooden mallets to try and achieve the same.
At the axle shop, after quench and temper, the axles were shot peened to develop a compressed surface and also to relieve unseen quench cracks at the surface. These was a process using steel shot fired at the forged axle at great velocity as the axle rotated down a pair of augers. The axle translated and rotated under several high speed slinger wheels that shot the steel shot at the axle.
I peen welds with a ball peen if big enogh weld, a chipping hammer if needed to reach the fillet. A needle gun is the best for a small shop without a several hundred thousand dollar wheelabrator.
   ptree - Wednesday, 03/27/13 09:15:13 EDT
Hard Facing Rods : : I agree that most are designed for equipment buckets and will take the abuse of such ,but I have used hardfacing rod years ago in power plant on boiler gas recirculating fans that were more abrasion resistant but had very low impact rating . those may chip if struck much easier than most hardacing
   Tom-L - Wednesday, 03/27/13 11:06:32 EDT
Hard facing comes in a bewildering array of types and applications.
Just study a Stoody or Haynes catalog.
They have alloys for jet engine repair that are extreme errosion and temp resistant, there are all the valve seating alloys like Stellite 4, 5, and 6. Then you have the wear resistant alloys.
Much like matching tool steel and heat treatment to the task, one needs to match a hard facing alloy to the task and substrate.
   ptree - Wednesday, 03/27/13 14:13:15 EDT
hi i am a 12 yearold that is very intrested in smithing and whould like to know any tips and tricks.
   braden - Wednesday, 03/27/13 21:01:09 EDT
hi i am a twelve yearold that has recently become very intrested in blacksmithing and would like to know any tips or tricks.
   braden - Wednesday, 03/27/13 21:05:04 EDT
Hard facing rods : The ones best suited for anvil face repair are tool steel repair rods intended for stamping dies. These leave a hard deposit [mid-upper 50's R"C"]as welded that can take some impact. I don't have any current brand names or part numbers, what I have are really old & private branded for some company long gone.
   - Dave Boyer - Wednesday, 03/27/13 21:06:27 EDT
Tips and Tricks, How-to : Braden, There are hundreds. We have a daily tip on our home page and more specific tips on the Health and Safety page, and Tailgate pages.

Many of the things you will need to know will be learned as part of projects in our iForge page projects.

The most important thing to remember is that hand skills require lots of practice. In blacksmithing you need to develop a certain amount of hand and arm strength as well as control of the hammer and tongs. At first you will feel very clumsy. Then over many hours of forging you will develop the necessary strength and then the control.

While practicing your forging skills stop working when you get tired and thus sloppy. If you continue working tired you will develop bad habits and not improve your control. If you can work an hour a day then do so as often as possible. If you can only work weekends then expect to take many months or a year to become comfortable working at the anvil.

Besides these physical skills and development knowledge is your most important tool. You can purchase the entirety of available blacksmithing references for about the cost of two college textbooks. While much will be duplicated, each one has unique methods and specialized knowledge. Study, practice.

Besides forging practice almost any type of work using a hammer adds to your skill. Carpentry, wood carving, stone carving, engraving, repousse'. . . all arts using a hammer.

It is an ART: Most of what you probably think blacksmithing is, is art. If you cannot draw a line you will find it difficult to forge it, file it, grind it. . . IF you cannot imagine an item and draw it then you will find it difficult to make. Study drafting, isometric drawing, free hand drawing. Practice drawing with both hands. If you can imagine a thing, and you can make a drawing of that thing, you can make that thing. Drawing also helps express ideas that are difficult to express in words.

Hope this helps.
   - guru - Wednesday, 03/27/13 22:50:44 EDT
On the Road : I'll be traveling for a couple days. . .
   - guru - Thursday, 03/28/13 09:52:08 EDT
Selling anvil : I would like to sell my anvil but I'm not sure where to sell it. Or how much I should be asking for it. The anvil is a forged iron. The most I can get from it is arm n hammer. And it weighs about 200 lbs
   Angie - Friday, 03/29/13 20:39:32 EDT
Used Anvil : Now this right here is a used anvil.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/160994024409?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

eBay 160994024409
   - Tom H - Saturday, 03/30/13 07:08:45 EDT
Ebay Anvil : Tom,

I'd call that one "used up", not merely used.
   Rich Waugh - Saturday, 03/30/13 11:41:44 EDT
eBay Anvil - Rich : I guess "pre-owned" doesn't really tell the whole story.
   - Tom H - Saturday, 03/30/13 16:29:45 EDT
eBay Anvil Bash : Looks like an old Hay Budden that lost most of its top plate, and folks persisted in bashing the wrought iron body into submission. Tom: I suspect a long grisly story!
   Bruce Blackistone -Atli- - Saturday, 03/30/13 18:28:24 EDT
cannedy otto gear : Hi
My apprentice brought in a cannedy otto large blower he had bought. recently it failed and i took it apart to find a stripped aluminum gear in the gearbox. I think he got shafted, unless the gear is like a shear/safety? either way, does anyone have experience making or procuring said gear out of steel?
   josh s. - Saturday, 03/30/13 23:05:08 EDT
I bought a lightly used 'roller' type scanner for about $4000/. It prints and copies aswell, uses a paper roll. The really neat thing is it puts a 100kb - 200 kb ish pdf file on the system from an old grubby A0 drawing. Every drawing we take from the paper archives gets scanned, the scan re-named using a carefull system which makes it easily searchable. We now, after a year, have 1000+ prints on the system, and as it grows the digital drawings are getting accessed more and more. Its easily saving me an hour a day even in these 'early days', and my contracts manager more than that. Magic really to click up a 100+ year old drawing in seconds, and email or print a copy.
   - John N - Sunday, 03/31/13 04:40:31 EDT
Angies anvil : As with anything, it all depends on location and condition. Arm and Hammer is one of the better old American brands, and 200 lbs is a good weight. That is assuming it SAYS arm and hammer, and doesn't just have a raised image of an arm holding a hammer. That last would make it a Vulcan, which are not as highly thought of and as such bring less money.

Assuming it is in fact an Arm and Hammer: if the face is in good shape, that is, no large chips, cracks, or serious swayback, and has not been welded on or machined flat, it could be worth $200 to $600 dollars (or more if in mint condition) depending on where you are and how badly someone wants it. If it's been machined flat and crisp with sharp edges it's worthless to anyone who wants it to actually use as an anvil.

The higher price range is for the further west you get in the U.S. and Canada. Even more in Australia!
   Alan-L - Sunday, 03/31/13 09:58:56 EDT
cannedy otto gear :
Josh, Step one is to measure the gear, determine the tooth profile, count the teeth, measure the bore and keyway, and set screw if it has one. Then you will have somewhere to start asking questions.

Spur gears (straight tooth gears) come in two different "pitch angles", 14.5° and 20°. The 14.5° is most common on older equipment and is the standard for lathe change gears.

Diametral Pitch, or "pitch" abbreviated Dp is the number of teeth per inch of diameter (most American gears) measured at the pitch diameter (contact circle line). This is about half way up the gear tooth and is a ratio of the number of teeth based on Dp.

Typical diametral pitch's 16,12,10,8,6 and 5 (or less). In a hand crank blower the Dp is probably 12,10 or 8. So the pitch diameter is some multiple of 1/12, 1/10 of 1/8" inch. Example a 10 tooth 10 pitch gear will have a Dp of 1" and an OD (Outside Diameter) of about 1.2". The distance between the two mating gear shafts will be the sum of half the two gears DP's.

Knowing the above you can do a pretty good job of determining the Diametral Pitch or size of the gear teeth. To help with these measurements they make a gear profile gauge that looks a lot like a screw pitch gauge. Gear catalogs and manuals can also help. We always used Boston Gear catalogs but the versions we used are no longer available and the Gear Theory PDF seems to be hidden or taken off line.

Once you have all the gear parameters you can search for a replacement from standard gears or get quotes on having one made.
   - guru - Sunday, 03/31/13 10:38:11 EDT
Angies anvil : There are two anvils with the Arm and Hammer logo. The actual "Arm and Hammer Brand" which is a good forged anvil and the Vulcan which is a low quality version of a Fisher (cast iron with steel face).

These are often confused and there is a big difference in quality and value.
   - guru - Sunday, 03/31/13 11:22:13 EDT
Angies anvil : Thanks guys for the replies. I am located in upstate NY. I guess eBay may be my best bet. I do have a few pictures of it. If anyone is interested I would be more than happy to email them. Thanks again
   Angie - Sunday, 03/31/13 13:28:31 EDT
Large Scale Scanners and PDFs :
The big drawing era is now a thing of the past. CAD drawings have replaced them but old drawings are still a vast part of most archives. When we sold off our nuclear equipment designs the drawings in tube, roll files, flat files and file boxes would fill a mini-van (without seats) to full capacity. Being low priority to the buyers I'm sure they are still filling a corner of a store room. . .

Scanners will generate various outputs. Bitmaps or raster files can be imported into some CAD programs and the bits turned in to line vectors. However, unless the drawings were perfect and the scans perfectly aligned there is can be significant line errors or steps in the lines. It produces a CAD drawing but a rough one.

Another method used is tracing the drawing on a large scale graphics pad. This is a time consuming process but produces a true accurate CAD drawing (depending on the draftsperson's skills). This takes less time than correcting a raster conversion.

Adobe PDF's are the handiest thing ever for electronic document transmission, especially engineering drawings. In the old days you had to mail or ship drawings to get quotes and the same when making corrections. Big businesses had large scale FAX machines but this did not help when sending drawings to smaller businesses (usually sub contractors). In the 1980's when drawings could be reduced and the FAX became a standard business tool some drawings could be sent by wire. However, the FAX standard is a rather coarse raster images and reductions with fine print were often unreadable. Now a drawing can be converted to a PDF and printed in various sizes as needed. They can also be viewed in detail on a computer zooming in many times (about 16x) the size of the original.

A great advantage to the PDF format is that it can be read without the originating program. They are also very compact when correctly made.

Document Mistakes: Occasionally I am sent graphic files such as JPEG's as a PDF. This is a waste of time and bandwidth. JPEG's are already in an optimized format. They do not reduce like a text or vector graphic file does. The file is just increased in size by adding the PDF layer over top of the image. SO there is conversion by both sender and receiver and the increased transmission size. Some after market "PDF converters" take printer output, convert to a graphic and then a PDF. This defeats the purpose of the PDF. A correctly converted text document reduces text to a font and ASCII text plus special attributes. This often reduces text documents to less than 50% of their original size plus puts them in a universal format. If you are not sure about your PDF conversion process always check the before and after file sizes.
   - guru - Sunday, 03/31/13 17:44:21 EDT
Branding irons : Anybody have any experience making branding irons? I have made a couple in the past, for my own use, but they were rough. I have got a commission to make one for a customer so it has to be good.
   philip in china - Sunday, 03/31/13 20:49:15 EDT
Branding irons :
Phillip, It depends somewhat on the purpose of the iron. Branding cattle, steaks, wood. . . .

Real brands are made of flat bar on edge. These hold the heat better than wide square bar and provide time to work. 1/8 to 3/16" (3 to 5 mm) by 1" (25mm) bar is the approximate size (Frank Turley may know better). Shaping the symbols is done hot and cold and may include welding. Legs like risers on a bronze casting connect the symbols to the handling rod. I've seen these forge welded, gas welded and arc welded.

The brands I've made of square bar (3/8" - 10mm) worked OK on wood. Letters were forged with serifs and tapers then bent to final shape. To get them all the same size and style takes a lot of experimentation (R&D).

If the brand is to be used on an animal then the design must not have enclosed areas such as triangles, squares or small circles. These result in areas of skin or hide that are disconnected from the surrounding skin and may peal off and scab over and not leave the desired results. On a steak it doesn't matter.

If the brand is to be used on wood you may want to sharpen the edges.

Other brand designs are built on a large block or heat sink. These are particularly good for wood.
   - guru - Sunday, 03/31/13 22:19:21 EDT
Branding Irons : Thanks for that Jock. They are for a guy in Georgia. The logo he wants is KKK. I thought I could make that by welding some flat stock to angle. Make each K separately then weld them together onto another piece of flat stock. In the past I have put the handle straight out of the back at 90 degrees. I am still using those hammer handles I got after the earthquake. I usually drill one of those to put a hickory handle on the end to save any painful experiences.
   philip in china - Monday, 04/01/13 01:02:05 EDT
Branding Irons : Be sure to quench those irons in DHMO. And see the Dihydrogen Monoxide warning at DHMO.ORG
   - guru - Monday, 04/01/13 09:30:58 EDT
Branding irons : I'm not at all sure I'd be willing to make KKK branding irons for delivery to Georgia. I'd be worried that they would be put to a use I wouldn't countenance, given the history of both the KKK as an organization and that state. Some jobs it is better to walk away.
   Rich Waugh - Monday, 04/01/13 15:38:11 EDT
Philip, from one Hebrew to another, this may either be the funniest April fools joke in the world or a horrible idea, yet still funny if they only knew.... that is IF you take the job. Philip, just Google that logo idea and post back here please.
   - Nippulini - Monday, 04/01/13 17:21:35 EDT
Oddball question : I have never used acids much.

The other day just for the heck of it, I poured about a shot glass of 30% HCl into a jar and dropped in about 1/4" of horseshoe nail. It bubbled (vey fine - almost invisible) and the nail turned black.

After two days, the nail was still sitting there (no bubbles) so I moved the nail to fresh acid. Back came the bubbles.

I was astonished at how much acid (by volume) it took to reduce that nail. Maybe a couple hundred times by volume.

Is this normal? or are horseshoe nails a special alloy (It was a Capewell)? Is there a rule thumb for how much acid to convert how much solid?

This is the second time I've run into this. After graduating, I tried to demineralize the shower in my first apartment. Decided I would need 4 gallons to do the job.

Nothing wrong, just surprised at the quantity.

   - Rudy - Monday, 04/01/13 18:57:54 EDT
Branding Irons : It is for a friend of mine who runs a kosher restaurant. It means "Kievman's Kosher Kitchen". I don't think he has registered it as a trade mark but wants to brand it onto the steaks etc. I hope it isn't infringing copyright.
   philip in china - Monday, 04/01/13 21:38:59 EDT
Branding iron : Philip,

Just a suggestion, but in the Georgia I think he might be well advised to simply use a single K so as not to be confused with the Ku Klux Klan. His Jewish customers might not be overjoyed to see a KKK brand on their dinner and even some of the goys might feel that way too. I know I would, if I found myself in Georgia and saw that on my supper. One "K" should suffice to convey the brand and maybe you could add the "U" in a circle for the kosher designation. If the circle was the same size as the K, the goys would see it as reading "OK" which is never a bad thing, right? (grin)
   Rich Waugh - Monday, 04/01/13 23:23:53 EDT
April FOOL! : Phillip, tries to come up with something weird for April 1st every year. As a Brit living in China he has a weird sense of humor.

KKK: Sadly the Klan and others like them still exists in the 21st Century. There are many more than most people think. I ran into a group operating as a chapter of a "Christian" men's group. These respected civic leaders had a secret agenda to prevent those they thought were the "wrong" people from using publicly funded facilities. I'm sure they pursued other evil machinations. I did not take the time to find out. This was a clear form of bureaucratic or institutional discrimination. Imagine if many of the people you need and trust, your public leaders, the fire chief, the sheriff, your banker, the local judge were all part of organizations that were against "your kind". For many this is STILL a reality in the U.S. It is fading, but it still exits.
   - guru - Monday, 04/01/13 23:55:30 EDT
Possibly in poor taste but yes it was an attempt at humour. Jock, you might like to consider deleting it.
   - philip in china - Tuesday, 04/02/13 00:37:51 EDT
Acids : Rudy, it's all about the concentration and purity of the acid. Pure HCL in 100% form, i.e. no dilution at all, would eat the nail in seconds or less. It would also be dangerous to be near, much less drop things into.

I used to have some reagent-grade nitric acid that I used to make ferric nitrate as a wood stain. To make ferric nitrate you must dissolve iron/steel into the nitric acid until it can't take any more. If you use steel wool it's impressive to watch from a distance, scary as heck from right next to it. The first step was to dilute by a factor of three with distilled water. Of course, if you pour the water into the acid it will explode in your face due to the heat released, so you carefully dribble the acid into the water. It still gets hot, but it doesn't flash into steam. You then carefully drop bits of steel wool or iron filings into the diluted acid. This time it will boil, releasing a cloud of thick dark orange vapor (nitric oxide, poisonous). Keep this up for a few days, and by day three the iron filings just float around, no heat is released, and no vapors. The acid has been "Killed" as it used to be known. That's also how they make ferric chloride starting with strong HCl. Your 30% stuff just wasn't pure enough to do much.
   Alan-L - Tuesday, 04/02/13 08:36:10 EDT
Acids: the atomic weight of Fe is 55.84. The molecular weight of HCl is o 36.458. So, FeCl2 (Ferrous Chloride) will require about 1.3 times the weight of Fe in HCl. FeCl3 (Ferric Chloride) about 2 times. So, a few grams of steel should only need a few grams of (dry) acid if the Fe and HCl simply reacted completely.

It doesn't. For one, no reaction goes 100% to completion. There is always an equilibrium between formation and disassociation. And, it can take a long time.

Then there are competing reactions. In your case, the iron is oxidizing forming a scale layer at the same time. But, that equilibrium generally favors the production of FeCl2 and H2O (what we call
   - Eric J - Tuesday, 04/02/13 15:16:19 EDT
Acids: the atomic weight of Fe is 55.84. The molecular weight of HCl is o 36.458. So, FeCl2 (Ferrous Chloride) will require about 1.3 times the weight of Fe in HCl. FeCl3 (Ferric Chloride) about 2 times. So, a few grams of steel should only need a few grams of (dry) acid if the Fe and HCl simply reacted completely.

It doesn't. For one, no reaction goes 100% to completion. There is always an equilibrium between formation and disassociation. And, it can take a long time.

Then there are competing reactions. In your case, the iron is oxidizing forming a scale layer at the same time. But, that equilibrium generally favors the production of FeCl2 and H2O (what we call "pickling"). That's more of an alternative pathway than a competing reaction.

I'm guessing you only have a gram or so of steel and a 30% solution (by weight) then something like 30ml of your solution should give you nearly a 10x excess. I'd expect that to drive the reaction to effectively 100% completion in a few hours.

Either I'm missing some significant competing reaction or your acid isn't really 30% any more.
   Eric J - Tuesday, 04/02/13 15:17:02 EDT
The fundamental trick to blacksmithing was once codified very succinctly by a friend of mine, Jim Green: "You hold the cold end and hit the hot end---and get it *RIGHT* next time!"
   ThomasP - Tuesday, 04/02/13 17:19:13 EDT
Branding : Whoa. I was just about to write a treatise for y'all on the forging of real branding irons. I've made boo coo of 'em.
   Frank Turley - Tuesday, 04/02/13 19:59:05 EDT
Super Sucker Hood, contd : Well, I fabbed up a hood based on the Super Sucker design on the Anvilfire plans page. Used it last weekend for the first time, with an 8 foot 12" diameter stack. It worked great. I'm much more happy with my forge.

Problem is, I'm still not completely satisfied with the forge in general. As I think I reported in this forum some months ago, I have an old Centaur firepot (rectangular kind, about 30 yrs old). I have never been happy with its performance. I put in a new clinker breaker of my own design, with air slots down the middle, and it helped; but it still seems to me that I consume a heck of a lot of coal and time to heat even a small piece of iron. Has anyone else been unhappy with the Centaur design? Can anyone suggest a firepot that heats really hot, really fast? (My air blast is good; I use a Kayne blower.)

I think I also mentioned once or twice that I built a small side-draft masonry forge for a local museum in Tucson, and I get to operate it now and again for demos. I love it; it heats small work very quickly. I am seriously debating building a side-draft in my shop, and chucking the firepot version. Anyone else have this kind of issue with conventional firepots?
   - Eric T - Tuesday, 04/02/13 20:23:11 EDT
Firepots :
Eric, Most of the coal forges I've used were of my own design. However, I have observed some other fire pot designs. Generally the flatter or more open the "pot" the more the fire spreads and the less efficient it is. A firepot with a truncated pyramid shape smaller than the current Centaur firepot seems to make the most concentrated heat and efficient fire. The down side is it takes more fire maintenance raking fresh coal into the fire.

The advantage to a coal forge is its wide working range. However, there are large and small forges with working ranges determined by their size. One oddity is the "rivet" forge. These flat bottom forges are made for a large soft heat for many small parts.
   - guru - Wednesday, 04/03/13 14:06:53 EDT
April Fools : I am notorious for pulling pranks. This year I told everyone of the fiendish devious plans I would pull on everyone. I ended up doing nothing, but everyone was SO suspiscious and paranoid they worried ALL day long. I told them all that THAT was the April Fool... that I did nothing.

Philip, I dig it... good joke. I think I was the only person who caught on
   - Nippulini - Wednesday, 04/03/13 20:39:01 EDT
USA anvil : These are small cheap anvils cast in Alabama, Birmingham, I think. They do have a nice horn and look like little 75# Peter Wrights. They were selling for $75 at the flea market. I used them when teaching classes at the SBA conference in Madison, Ga several years ago. Not "professional grade", but they seemed to work ok for what we were doing.
   Ron Childers - Thursday, 04/04/13 06:37:48 EDT
brand of anvil : I have recently come across a 176lb English anvil with the following indistinguishable brand mark - IVR(downward pointing arrow)SE7orZ. Any idea of brand,age? Thanks.
   Paul Jones - Thursday, 04/04/13 19:20:21 EDT
Paul, Send me a couple photos and I'll see if I can help. You have to be careful reading faint anvil markings. Your eyes try to make sense of partial letters or the corrosion around them and produce false characters. We get some of the strangest readings of partial words. . .
   - guru - Thursday, 04/04/13 21:27:46 EDT
clutch mechanism Star Hammer : Jock Dempseysent me some photos of his Star. Does he have any more photos of the top working section showing how the clutch mechanism works and how it all fits together. I have the frame of the cluth but not the clutch plate.
   Steve. Australia - Friday, 04/05/13 03:03:36 EDT
Sent last photo and contact info.
   - guru - Friday, 04/05/13 09:57:44 EDT
Dave Boyer : Sorry to be the bearer of some bad news. I got a message today from Dave Boyer's Mom that he is in the hospital with a pretty strong recurrence of his cancer. He is alert and functioning but his breathing is very bad and he is on oxygen. He has been hospitalized since Easter. I'll be visiting him tomorrow at the hospital and will report back if there is a way any of you can be in touch with him by phone or mail. As many of you know Dave is not only one of the smartest people around but also a generous and likable guy. I'm sure he'd appreciate any encouraging words from both his online and in person friends so I'll try and get some contact info that will work while he is in hospital. Steve G.
   SGensh - Sunday, 04/07/13 22:04:55 EDT
Dave Boyer : Sad news indeed as Dave has always been an insightful knowledgeable contributor. As one of our regulars he seems like a close friend. Sad also in that too many of our on-line family have been affected by cancer or other serious disease recently.
   - guru - Monday, 04/08/13 08:36:47 EDT
Looking for a lab : I have a bunch of rounds from a old die shop , some 4140 for sure ,some D2 and soforth. I need to ID this steel Can any one tell me of a metallurgy lab that is reasonably priced ? The last guys I thought were quite pricy.
   Dan - Monday, 04/08/13 10:37:16 EDT
Hardness : Would heating wrought for 10-12 hrs., encased in a charcoal mixture produce a piece as hard as quenching mild steel. I understand the very low carbon content of mild steel. It will harden to a slight degree when quenched. I am just curious as to how the two would compare in hardness.
   Donnie - Monday, 04/08/13 11:08:59 EDT
Case Hardening, Making Steel : Donnie, What you are describing is similar to that used to make blister steel. In this process, highly refined wrought (with little slag) is case hardened for many hours then is folded (cut) and forged over and over to produce a nearly uniform product. This is similar to the Japanese refining process but from a different starting point.

The reason it is called "blister" steel is that the long case hardening produces bubbles and blisters in the steel. The steel is also VERY high carbon, perhaps over 100 points on the surface and may still have a low or no carbon core. The combination of blisters and uneven carbon content make it useless as is.

Case hardening does not produce a uniformly hardenable product. It produces a product with high surface hardness and a soft core. It is used for wear resistance and durability. As such it does not compare to a more uniformly hardenable steel.

What you are looking at is an R&D program. Try not to compare apples and oranges in the process.
   - guru - Monday, 04/08/13 12:36:26 EDT
Looking For Lab :
Dan, Your best bet is to make friends with someone at a scrapyard. Today many have hand held LASER spectrometers and can test the samples relatively quickly. This technology is similar to that used by labs but in an expansive hand held device. Lack of a written report and certification is where the savings come in.
   - guru - Monday, 04/08/13 12:51:38 EDT
Steves Star clutch : Steve, there is no clutch "plate" as such, it's just a two-spoked spider that fits inside the big pulley in the middle of the shaft. The ends of the spider spokes are topped with wooden blocks that engage the inside of the pulley when you step on the treadle. There will be a yoke that mounts on the end of the treadle linkage the arms of which sit in the groove on the back of the spider.

Step on the treadle, the rod in back goes up, which pushes on the yoke, which pushes the spider into the pulley.

The whole spider assembly is keyed onto the shaft, which is how it spins the flywheel when the clutch is engaged.

Thank goodness I have never had to take mine apart, other than removing the ram and guides, but they're fairly simple machines. Just remember that they have to be dripping with oil and grease to work! When you get it running there will be a vertical "sling line" of oil from floor to ceiling all the way around that shows you exactly where the back edge of the pulley is in space. A handy secondary reason for the angled dies, they not only allow you to pass long bars through the dies, they also keep you out of the line of oil-slinging. (grin!)

If Jock didn't send you my email, it's Alan DOT Longmire AT tn DOT gov, no spaces, and DOT equals a period. I'll be happy to take a few more pics for you, assuming you'll be able to see through the grease layers...
   Alan-L - Monday, 04/08/13 13:42:21 EDT
Alan, I corrected your email for Steve.

Manufacturing a cone clutch from scratch is quite a task. The pulley must run on Babbitt or other bearings and have a taper machined inside. The wood blocks need to match the shape but will wear in fairly soon if not perfect. As long as they are adjustable the wearing to fit is not a problem.

A slack belt clutch is a little simpler to make and does not need lubrication as does a cone clutch. The entire belt being the friction material means there is much more surface and less wear.
   - guru - Monday, 04/08/13 13:59:50 EDT
Oily Power Hammers :
Generally oil gets on the dies from the ram as well on many mechanical hammers resulting in puffs of flame when the hammer strikes. Clutch pulley "stripes" are common as well.

Years ago we were at a hammer-in in Pennsylvania and the host had just finished rebuilding several pieces of machinery. Among them was a small Champion power hammer. One of our group tried to fire up the little hammer but when he tried to engage the clutch the treadle was stiff and so dry it squeaked! So we put a little oil on the pivots and the treadle freed up. When we engaged the clutch the ram just barely moved in its dry oil free guides. The toggle pivots squeaked. So we oiled the ram guides and the toggle pivots. We ran it a little more and the bearings squeaked. . . We oiled them and everything else that moved. Now the hammer ran smoothly and had the control expected of a Champion. It was leaving a little faint line of oil spray on the floor.

After the event we heard that the host was extremely upset that that someone had dirtied his shop. . . He took the machine apart and degreased it again. . . . squeak, squeak. . .

Some folks just don't get it. . . And I am still shocked at the "blacksmiths" I meet that have no mechanical sense at all.

   - guru - Monday, 04/08/13 19:11:09 EDT
Squeaky Clean Machines : Some folks are evidently more interested in having tools for display, rather than for use. Almost anything in a blacksmith's shop with moving parts needs oiling or greasing, and usually frequently. Sure, you have to clean stuff to remove swarf and grit and assorted spooge that collects on the lubricated surfaces, but that's just routine maintenance. Letting valuable tools sit around without lubrication is just counter-productive. I like my tools clean, particularly the machine tools, but I'd far rather see them with a healthy, if dirty, film of oil than a cancerous film of rust!

There's just no getting around it - this is a dirty, noisy, and dangerous pastime. If ya can't stand the heat and the grease, best to take up knitting.
   Rich Waugh - Monday, 04/08/13 20:28:15 EDT
Stair Railing : Hello! I am interested in making a stair railing for a set of 4 stairs seperating a living room below to a hallway above. The length of the railing from the wall to the stairs is about 4 feet. I was wondering if you had any "iforge How To" on this subject. Is there a way to search the iforge for a certain subject? I am wondering what size metal I should use for the top railing and if I have to have the perpendicular rails any certain width apart for housing codes. I was thinking about filling in the area between the top rail and the floor and the stairs with a vine/or branches/leaves design. The youngest child in the home is about 11 so I wouldn't have to worry about a young child putting their head through the rails (unless of course they had visitors!) Thanks in advance for the pointers!
   Wendy - Monday, 04/08/13 20:32:45 EDT
Dave Boyer Update : Hi folks, I spent a couple of hours today with Dave. While he is alert and as smart as ever it's difficult for him talk on the phone and he has not got a good email connection at the hospital. that makes communication difficult for him right now. Please don't be offended if you send or sent him an email and he does not return it. With no good way to access his mail they are piling up unanswered. He does appreciate everyone's good wishes though. He's been battling this cancer for a long time and he's having a very rough time right now. He's still got his sense of humor and lots of determination though. Steve G
   SGensh - Monday, 04/08/13 22:12:56 EDT
Wendy, Building codes and how they are enforced varies from state to state, county to country, parish to parish, city to city. The local codes are up to you to investigate. If you have friends in the business they are a good source of info. NOMMA chapters do a great job of covering the codes and educating their members.

You description sounds like you are bridging a span. Any time you do this there are a variety of design parameters that the code will address but NOT give you answers.

Some general rules for supporting loads.

1) Load in PSI is rarely a limiting factor.

2) Deflection is the primary limiting factor. If there is too much deflection and the floor/stairs feel springy it is too light duty. The general rule is a maximum of 1/4" deflection in a 10 foot span, less in stairs. That is a MAX and will feel cheap to those of us that weigh over . . . . well, a lot too much. Also remember that live loads include 250 lb movers holding up one end of a 300 pound piece of furniture (400+ pounds). Calculating deflection is a job for an engineer. In design it is often trial and error. Here is my design, how much will it deflect, what do I have to do to get it under control. . . Worst case you may have a design that is to complex to calculate afforadably and you may need to make a test section and measure the deflection at a test load. Note that sometimes it is cheaper to build test pieces than to pay an engineer.

3) In some places the codes (or the inspector) will not allow any horizontals other than the top rail and no toe holds (scrolls, decorative elements).

4) The "ball rule" (how big a ball will pass through the rail has also been reduced in recent years from 9" to 8" and less.

While I hate getting the authorities involved you may want to just ask the building inspector. Note however, that the code and the inspector will NOT tell you what size materials to use. They will just tell you the loading capacity and test parameters. Often the code merely says "sufficiently strong".

When you have enough of a design to discuss, let us know and we might be able to be more specific.
   - guru - Monday, 04/08/13 22:52:39 EDT
Dave Boyer : Steve, thanks for the update. Please tell him that Nippulini is "pulling" for him! Heh heh... Seriously, tell him that.
   - Nippulini - Tuesday, 04/09/13 16:50:26 EDT
Railing codes : The current Uniform Building Code (UBC) as well as BOCA specify a 4" ball must not pass through the pickets/balusters in a railing for an occupied structure. The cap rail must conform to the current ADA guidelines which you can get online readily. I usually jut buy ready-made from King or other supplier and modify to suit the aesthetics of the design, keeping the grip dimensions constant and unaltered. For a stair railing, the handrail should be 34" above the nose of the stair treads. For a railing over a span or a balcony, the minimum height requirement is 42" above the finished floor. These are some of the guidelines, there are others as well, such as anchoring methods, prohibition on interruptions to the handrail, etc. You can find the UBC, ADA and BOCA rules online.

A majority of US cities adopt the UBC guidelines for their own, though some have variations specific to the location. If the job will be inspected, permitted or subject to the house going up for sale imminently, I recommend contacting the building inspector and having him/her approve your drawings before commencing work.
   Rich Waugh - Tuesday, 04/09/13 17:42:41 EDT
The ball rule has been 4" in most of the USA for over 20 years now.
   - Ries - Tuesday, 04/09/13 20:49:49 EDT
Codes : My copy of the building code is from 1984. . However, it was still the "standard" in our locality 10 of 12 years later. Localities that adopt PARTS of the code OR modify it for their circumstances often use "outdated" codes because of the cost involved in rewriting updates. Same with zoning codes. That is why you should always check your local codes.

THEN there are the inspectors. While our locality officially used the 1984 code when I was building my shop the local inspector used his leather bound 1976 copy. . . Good old boys rules applied.

When I built my shop I put in whats called a UFER ground system, A ring of rebar welded together in the footings. Some 140 feet of ground. A much better than standard system (according to the CODE). To this was bonded a big 0 (ought) copper cable about 1/2" in diameter. The inspector insisted on a standard ground rod with its little #2 wire. . I bonded them all together. The point is that sometimes the CODE is not the CODE. . . No matter if the inspector is right or wrong, THEY are the last word.
   - guru - Wednesday, 04/10/13 08:46:50 EDT
Its absolutely true that the inspector is God on the jobsite, and what he says goes. However, I have only been building railings and fences for a measly 35 years now, and I never met one who didnt require a 4" ball in all that time. Maybe its a West Coast thing- the current UBC is descended from California codes going back to the sixties, much the way all cars sold in the USA are designed to meet California Air Quality rules- but I dont know anyone who even remembers an 8" ball rule- that would be heaven, for a lot of ornamental designs, but it hasnt happened in my working lifetime, and I am 57.
Still, you learn to work with 4". Or, to be exact, 3 7/8".
   - Ries - Wednesday, 04/10/13 10:50:39 EDT
4 Ball Rule : Ries,

When I was working some in a welding and machine shop in Colorado during the mid-sixties, the rule there called for a 6" ball. I thought that that came from the UBC, but it may well have been a Colorado adaptation, or even a municipal code - the inspector was from the city. It sure was easier for the designers to work with 6" rather than 4". In any event, it later changed to 4" and has been ever since. Until they decide that we can't have pickets at all and have to use solid panels, I suppose. (grin)
   Rich Waugh - Wednesday, 04/10/13 16:12:34 EDT
Off subject -exhaust radiation : I rarely visit this site - but cam across your interest in ITC
I suspect this 'reflector coat' would not deal with the main issue - conduction from gas to exhaust pipe. By changing the tube emissivity it might help a little.
Understand - radiation for practical purposes becomes significant over 1000 degF. Radiation from the exh.pipe is proportion to 1/dist^2. double the distance and radiation is down 1/4.
This is why expanded metal tube over the metal tube is a great help. This helps to reduce injury on the exterior of the pipe.
If you're trying to capture the heat from the exhaust gasses with minimal losses (i.e.recuperaters) then ceramic tubes with external insulation has often been used.
Hope this helps
   bcorneck - Wednesday, 04/10/13 16:58:38 EDT
Ok, I stand corrected- I DO know somebody who remembers pre-4" ball days. But I am too young to have been doing ironwork in the mid 60s, myself. Didnt take my first welding class til about 69 or 70, and didnt really get into metalworking til the late 70's.
   - Ries - Wednesday, 04/10/13 19:23:13 EDT
water wheel trip hammers : My great granddad owned a chisel factory in VT. I am writing a history for the family. He died in 1886 and the factory closed. I have a list of equipment in the deed. It includes 4 trip hammers with platforms operated by overshot waterwheel. Does the guru know how the trip hammers were used to forge the chisels?. I assume a die was set on the hammer and the stock heated to mallability and then struck until the chisel was formed. Each chisel had a tang,a butt (hilt), and a face. Some of the chisels were socket type. I have several of each and they are noted by woodcarvers in this area as being softer than todays but hold a good edge. I believe from verbal history that the company had a special way of quenching to provide the face with edge holding qualities while the tang and butt were softer but stronger for impact reasons. My question is about how the trip hammer was used. I would like to include a paragraph on that for my family history. thanks.
   James Hayden - Wednesday, 04/10/13 19:48:37 EDT
4 Rule redux : Ries,

I wouldn't have remembered the 6" spacing if it weren't for the fact that one of the chores I was given was welding in a bunch of balusters on that spacing. As I was a relative novice at MIG welding then, the boss figured it was good practice for me while low risk for him. :-)

Down here in the 2nd-and-a-half world, the inspectors were still using the 6" rule up until about four or five years ago when the Territory officially adopted the BOCA codes. They'll still approve some non-code designs for our ~300-year old historical buildings, as long as the Historical Commission signs off on them for artistic compliance.
   Rich Waugh - Wednesday, 04/10/13 23:51:46 EDT
19th Century Factories :
Pounding Out the Profits

James, the image above may be similar to your Great Grandfathers operation. But it may not. Water powered tilt hammers were operated two different ways. One was by dogs attached directly to the water wheels main shaft which often wood up to 30" in diameter. The other way is as in the image above the hammers running off a "line shaft" and belting.

This was also a period of time when mechanical power hammers were coming into play. These small machines are much better for forging small tools such as carving chisels. As these were a new invention your grandfather's shop may not have had them. If the business had continued into the later 1800's or early 1900's he would have surely upgraded to these machines.

The exact operations performed would vary from sizing stock (turning heavy bar into tool sized bars to finish forging tapers. There are numerous ways of forging chisel sockets. One way is to spread the stock, roll it and forge weld it. Another is to upset and then punch the socket in stages to final shape.

Forging tangs is a common operation in bladsmithing, file making and chisel making. It is often done free hand over the edge of a plain flat die on a forging machine.

Good luck on your research!
   - guru - Thursday, 04/11/13 00:03:06 EDT
chisel factory : I have the "Directory of American Toolmakers" published by the Early American Industries Association. I wonder if there is a blurb about your factory in the book. I would need to know the factory name in order to look it up.
   Frank Turley - Thursday, 04/11/13 08:25:20 EDT
As for differing hardnesses there are a couple of ways to do it: Very commonly in *old* tools the body of the tool was made with very soft wrought iron while the edge was a piece of forge welded on high carbon steel. I have a number of woodworking tools made this way: chisels, adzes, drawknives, hatchets/axes, etc (as well as smithing hammers and a farrier's hammer). When the price of high carbon steel dropped and the body of a tool was made from the same steel as the cutting edge, then you could just harden the edge leaving the body much softer.
   ThomasP - Thursday, 04/11/13 11:25:42 EDT
chisel factory response. : Thanks all for comments. The name of the company was Douglass Manufacturing from 1854-76 and then Arlington Edge Tool from 1876-1886. The chisels were stamped either Douglass or A.E.T. depending on vintage. They are highly sought after locally. I have a few passed down by relatives and also some drawshaves. I can confirm that the trips were always used with a waterwheel and it was quite famous at the time as the largest overshot wheel in New England. They must have operated off the shaft. Local history from preserved diaries of that time often mention the load sound of the trip hammers. I wonder how many times the stock had to be struck to forge the chisel. The hilt was a fancy octagon shape so it must have been die struct. You may be right about the forge welding of high carbon steel for the edge. I am not a blacksmith but I am a yankee and from a cost standpoint forge welding a small piece of expensive stock onto a larger piece of relatively inexpensive wrought iron would make sense. thanks again.
   James Hayden - Thursday, 04/11/13 19:15:39 EDT
tumblers : Hi I have a tumbler I made a while back. It is made from a hot water tank. The access hole is at one end like a front loading washing machine (axle at one end and rubber rollers at the other supporting the tank). My question is what is the best abrasive material to use. I am using some bits of punched out steel and sand blasting grit. The grit seems to help but it turns to a fine dust that sticks around the steel and has to be buffed off. I'd like to hear some of your experience.

Thank you for the advice.
   Dan - Thursday, 04/11/13 22:26:22 EDT
Tumbler Media : Dan, Selecting tumbler media is an art. Commercial media is made of vitrified abrasive (like a grinding wheel) and made in various grits, sizes and shapes. Rods, cones and pyramids are standard shapes. Rods come with various ends (flat, round, sloped). Other media include walnut shells for polishing and use on soft materials such as aluminum.

Media is selected according to kind of job, descaling, deburing, polishing and the metal being worked. One job my father setup for small aluminum parts worked best with little squares of fine (320 grit) wet-or-dry sandpaper.

Along with the media a fluid is used (water and a non-foaming detergent) to keep down dust and clean the parts and media. Some systems use static fluid, others recirculate the fluid and filtering it to remove fine metal and abrasive.

Punchings are commonly used for cleaning and deburing castings or other rough parts. They dull rapidly and must be replaced.

You can buy commercial tumbler media from McMaster-Carr and abrasive specialty houses. The same places also usually carry the fluid to use with the media.
   - guru - Thursday, 04/11/13 23:36:51 EDT
tumbler : i've gotten good results with no media, just put the parts in and turn it on,
   LarryH - Friday, 04/12/13 03:20:28 EDT
Walnut shells, busted up pieces of abrasive cut off disks (what else can you do with them once they're worn down to 1/4"?), I've heard tell of chopped up pieces of tires used too.
   - Nippulini - Friday, 04/12/13 07:41:10 EDT
Tumbler responses : Thanks for the comments on media used in tumbler.
   Dan - Friday, 04/12/13 08:36:59 EDT
tumbler : I have heard of using hard concrete nails as tumbler media
   ptree - Friday, 04/12/13 09:17:39 EDT
Tumblers : Tumbling works in several ways. Battering, breaking off parting fins and rolling edges. In this regard a collection of parts will often finish each other. This works best with fairly heavy parts. The other method is by cutting or polishing using abrasives.

Another variable in tumblers is their size. The larger they are the farther the parts roll. Critical to the operation of a tumbler is the speed it turns. If too fast the parts may go round and round. If too slow the parts slide rather than tumble. Sliding parts will wear on one surface only and parts on top of other parts will do nothing at all. The correct speed must often be found by trial and error as different size and density parts roll differently.

Vibratory finishing has pretty much replaced tumbling in much of industry. Media and fluids are similar but the action is more uniform.
   - guru - Friday, 04/12/13 11:57:27 EDT
Vibraatory finishing has indeed nearly replaced tumbling, but is not a patch on a "Tumblast" which is THE industry standard for cleaning forgings and castings. The Tumblast is a blast chamber that used steel shot or grit, fired at great velocity from slinger whesls as an endless chain bottom tumbles the parts. I have seen them big enough to tumble 550# axles say 20 at a time. The parts go in scaled and dirty rusty and come out very claen. The high velocity shot can also stress releieve the surface by Peening" a usefull side effect.
High maintenance as the interior is constantly blasted. You also produce a fine steel scale and rust dust to dispose of, and as the shot or grit wear down they fall through a sieve and become waste as well.
In fact my JYH frame is filled with almost 700# of too small shot and steel dust.
   ptree - Friday, 04/12/13 14:14:50 EDT
While the roto blast machines are THE industrial tool I think they only come in two sizes BIG and HUGE. Both tumblers and vibratory finishers come in sizes as small as desk top units to truck sized. An interesting feature of larger vibratory units is that they can be subdivided into sections with different media for stages of finishing OR for different size parts.

The two things common to all these devices is they make a LOT of noise but they replace a LOT of hand work.
   - guru - Friday, 04/12/13 19:24:05 EDT
Dave Boyer Update 2 : I spent a couple of hours with Dave Boyer this afternoon (April 12). He's been moved from the hospital where he spent the last week to a different facility. He asked me to pass on his thanks for the good wishes from all of you who have expressed concern for him. Nip, I passed on your "pulling for him" comment and it brought a smile to his face. It's not an easy time for him but he's trying to keep a positive attitude as much as he can. Steve G
   SGensh - Friday, 04/12/13 21:59:48 EDT
Most industrial machines are indeed large for the hobbist. If you are however a money making enterprise, industrial equipment can now often be had for little more then the scrap value, and the cost to get it to your shop. I have seen little roto-blasts that the size of 2 wall lockers.
Now the biggest need their own building and due to NOISE all need thought about that.
But NO vibratory finisher makes the peened surface nor cleans as fast or as well.
Vibratory finishing is however better at parts with hollows and delicate parts or where the surface can't have the peened finish.
Used vibratory equipment should be closly examined for the condition of the liner as a replacement will usually cost more than the used equipment is being sold for by at least 4 times.
The fill of stones will also set you back a fair amount.
"Speed costs money, how fast ya wanna go?"
   ptree - Saturday, 04/13/13 08:20:05 EDT
Among the mechanical finishing methods we have discussed we left out grit or sand blasting. It is also used for shot peening surfaces. However, unlike the other processes it requires more labor.
   - guru - Saturday, 04/13/13 20:39:15 EDT
anvil : 25 years ago I got an anvil at an auction, and started learning blacksmithing with a smithie in the Woodstovk NY area. I left it in his shop and now its his, not mine. I haven't found one since, and want to start again. Do you have any advice on how to find a good anvil in that area?
   Kevin C - Sunday, 04/14/13 07:19:08 EDT
handle : I bought a plumb hot cut off hammer head-I would like to give it a rustic handle-Would osage orange make a good handle or does it have some fault I don't know about-thanks Vern
   vern kelderman - Sunday, 04/14/13 08:05:38 EDT
Dave Boyers Passing : I got a call from Dave Boyer's Mom this morning. He passed away at about 7:30 AM. When I left him on Friday Eve he was still coherent but uncomfortable. They increased his pain medication and put him back on his BiPap machine to assist his breathing sometime during that night into Saturday. He was no longer able to talk with visitors on Saturday but could nod or shake his head in response to questions or statements. Some of his family was with him and his Mom on Saturday. He had specifically requested that I not let everyone know how bad his condition was until he was gone but he wanted everyone to know how much he appreciated the good wishes and prayers you expressed.

He will be cremated in the next few days as he requested according to his Mom. There will be no memorial service or funeral in accordance with his wishes, She asked me to let everyone know how much he appreciated the friendship of everyone in the blacksmithing community. He really loved the times he was able to get together in person with his friends.

I think he was a very good friend who will be sorely missed by those who knew him. His Mom seems to be doing OK and is at peace with his passing. He had a very long fight with his cancer and she is glad to see him finally at peace.

Steve G
   SGensh - Sunday, 04/14/13 12:16:00 EDT
Far too many have passed. . . : Bill Miller
Dave Manzer
Dona Meilach
Bill Gichner
Jim Paw-Paw Wilson
Ralph Douglas
Tom Clark
Bob Harisim
Patrick Mcghee
John Neary (AKA Cracked Anvil and Miles Undercut)
Grant Sarver
Ken Scharabok
Jack Andrews
Dave Boyer

These are just a few of our friends in the blacksmithing community that we have lost in the past 15 years.
   - guru - Sunday, 04/14/13 17:37:40 EDT
Just got an old anvil with GEM raised on the side. After searching the net the only reference I can find about it says that "GEM anvils are rare". I plan to mill the surface flat and weld on a heavy piece of steel. Wanted to be sure that this old ASO is of no collector value before I alter it. Thanks for any help.
   - jeff George - Monday, 04/15/13 07:53:58 EDT
A few things, Jeff... first off, this is not a chat room, it's a forum so you need only post once, then wait for replies. An anvils face is not to be used as a perfectly flat reference. A perfectly flat anvil face will only make all your work curl up. Second, you should NEVER weld a plate onto a tool steel anvil face. IF the anvil has any value to it, doing what you plan on will only reduce it to scrap value.
   - Nippulini - Monday, 04/15/13 08:56:55 EDT
GEM anvils : These were advertised as Cast Iron and sold in the early 1900's. The reason these are rare is like all cast iron anvils they do not last long. Unlike modern cast iron anvils these were sold honestly as cast iron for light duty and hobby use.

Steel faced cast iron anvils were made by welding the face on IN the mold. The face was specially prepared and fluxed then preheated in the mold before the molten cast iron was poured. It is a difficult process that is no longer done.

Welding a face to a cast iron anvil using modern methods will not produce a durable product.

It has more collector value than tool value.
   - guru - Monday, 04/15/13 12:44:17 EDT
Star Foundry hammer : Is there a spring that sits on the shaft between the clutch and the drive wheel. Does the clutch slide along a spine set into the keyway
   Steve/Australia - Tuesday, 04/16/13 02:33:55 EDT
Steve, I cannot say about a Star but I can tell you how a similar Little Giant hammer and other similar clutches works

1) The spring is in the linkage not in the clutch.

2) The pulley spins loose on the shaft using a babbit bearing.

3) The spider or cone is keyed and fixed to the shaft.

4) A bearing in a yoke (like a throwout bearing in an automobile) engages and disengages the pulley by sliding it on the shaft.

5) There is some type of lubrication for the pulley bearing and the throwout. Modern throwout bearings are sealed and not relubricated. Little Giants have a hole drilled in the center of the shaft which is cross drilled under the pulley. This is greased with a grease cup or "zirc" fitting.

Hope this helps.
   - guru - Tuesday, 04/16/13 09:38:41 EDT
Star hammer clutch : Jock is once again correct.

Except, the clutch spider is keyed to the shaft on a sliding keyway. The spring is indeed on the treadle linkage, adjustable via a turnbuckle. On some Stars the upper end of the spring hooks through a hole or eye in the frame, on mine it hooks to the back of the guide assembly on the left side. It could just as easily hook to the right side, it doesn't really matter. The treadle end of the spring or turnbuckle hooks to the treadle about 15cm forward of the pivot point at the bottom of the frame. On mine there is a flange with a hole in it on the treadle at this point.

The pushrod connecting the treadle to the yoke may have a turnbuckle, or it may be solid. Mine is a solid length of 15mm round bar with an eye on each end.

The pulley does not slide, and on mine there is a grease fitting for the bearing.

The spider throwout bearing gets its grease from the excess that abounds on the shaft, but a squirt of heavy oil doesn't hurt anything on this open steel-to-steel contact. The ends of the yoke ride in a deep groove that is the throwout, which is stationary when the clutch is not engaged. When engaged, the throwout spins with the shaft and the ends of the yoke must have enough lubrication to spin freely while in contact.

The main thing to remember is that there is not very much travel in the clutch. The wood blocks are at a running fit with the inside of the pulley, needing only slight pressure to fully engage. Again, they are lubricated with the grease amply slung out of the pulley bearing. They must have a thin film of grease or they grab, too much and they won't lock up at full treadle pressure. The amount of travel is 5mm or less.
   Alan-L - Tuesday, 04/16/13 11:07:31 EDT
Rust Sleeps occassionally : Dear Guru & colleagues,

First off, condoloences to our fallen comrades in forging. They take alot of experience with them, sadly. Second, I have an old, engra ved saber with touch & forge (?) marks on the side & under the wood tooled handle. I am reluctant to use an abrasive on the few rust spots. Naval jelly is the only other rust remover I know of. What would you recommend? I have also rust proofed some forged & collected blades with boiled linseed oil & Japan drier with usually good results. I have also used oil of cloves with some success. I know I have asked this before, I was wondering if anyone had any good answers.
   Jon G. - Tuesday, 04/16/13 12:06:13 EDT
A Treasure :
Kremer Miniature Anvil and Wheelwright Shop

Marty Kremer was looking for a valuation on his Grandfather's model blacksmith shop and generously donated images for our use. The shop has all the tools of an old time blacksmith shop including a perfect working Champion drill press on 5 to 6" tall.

It also gave me a reason to clean up some images and post an article on Hand Crank Drill presses as well as clean up some other related articles.
   - guru - Tuesday, 04/16/13 14:34:51 EDT
de-rusting blades : Jon, much depends on the saber itself. If it's a valuable artifact like from the American Civil War or something like a Starr's Patent saber, stick to clove oil and a little gentle rubbing with #0000 steel wool. If it's nothing important a little Naval Jelly will work, just be sure to neutralize it afterwards, and be aware if the blade was nickel-plated (not uncommon on etched/engraved blades) it will remove the plating. Then again, so will most anything, it's not particularly durable.

For the under-the-handle rust, a little oil is the safest bet. While not considered important on western blades, the under-handle rust on antique Japanese blades is considered a large part of the value and authenticity.

Whatever you do, make sure you won't join the ranks of those folks on Antiques Roadshow who have inadvertantly made a $20 curio out of a once-valuable antique through overly aggressive cleaning! The good thing about linseed oil is that it is reversible. Naval Jelly is not.

In other words, anything non-reversible you do will reduce the value if it has any.
   Alan-L - Tuesday, 04/16/13 15:08:06 EDT
Naval Jelly :
I am not crazy about using this on anything important. It often produces odd coloring and will etch around plating. It leaves colors varying from white to black depending on the type of metal, rust, oil in the rust. . .

As Alan noted cleaning antiques is a dangerous business. However, if the cleaning uses the mildest abrasives and soft cloth it may result in no more than a well maintained item. But others go to the sandblaster, paint. . . . It all depends on what you have and what you want.

I like to start with scraping or sanding (with about 320 grit) dry. Then sanding with the same paper and WD-40. Then with finer grit. . . Wet sanding with oil produces a nice soft uniform finish. If you want a polished surface this is a good starting point.

I like sandpaper for
   - guru - Tuesday, 04/16/13 18:05:33 EDT
Rust reply : Dear Guru & Allan,

Thank you for the wisdom. I like the idea of the wd-40 sanding or steelwool. The saber in question is etched with names in fluttering banners near the handle, and has a maker's mark of a shield with a # 1 inside, & topped with a simple crown. There are other marks under the handle. Its funny because I have a civil war fighting man's short saber with a simple handle make what I think is iron. I has a very nice patina on but no rust. I really like the "once proud heirloom reduced to a mauled curio due to ill advised,harsh cleaning" metaphore.

Many thanks!
   Jon G. - Wednesday, 04/17/13 14:52:16 EDT
Jon G., Sword and Cleaning : Jon: You may want to try Sword Forum ( http://www.swordforum.com/forums/content.php ) for urther information on both the background of your sword (pictures are useful) and advice on whether and how much to clean.
   Bruce Blackistone -Atli- - Wednesday, 04/17/13 17:03:51 EDT
More Corrosion Removal :
One of the most gentle compounds I have used was a chrome polish, a light green paste with very fine abrasive. It seemed to be chemically active but just barely. It was designed for chrome plating but worked well on other metals, bare steel, brass. . . It seemed to be similar to a silver polish but was different.

Auto paint rubbing compound is similar but a coarser abrasive.

I've used both with fingertips and with small pieces of rag. This kind of cleaning/polishing is like cleaning a large object with a tooth brush. Close detail work on small areas at a time.
   - guru - Thursday, 04/18/13 00:21:05 EDT
Polishing Stuff : There is one more goodie on the auto store shelf next to the rubbing compounds, and it's made by the same folks. Its name is Polishing Compound. The brand names are Turtle Wax, Simoniz and maybe a few others. I think it comes in both paste and liquid form.
   - 3dogs - Thursday, 04/18/13 08:21:03 EDT
One mo goodie : Who could ever forget the old military standby "BRASSO"?
   - 3dogs - Thursday, 04/18/13 08:24:59 EDT
Simichrome polish
   ThomasP - Thursday, 04/18/13 10:43:23 EDT
Simichrome : Now, we're entering the high rent district, aren't we Thomas?
   - 3dogs - Thursday, 04/18/13 11:44:43 EDT
Simichrome : What Thomas said.
A small extra cost to not destroy am heirloom? Priceless.
   pt - Thursday, 04/18/13 12:56:48 EDT
This works great on old chrome bumpers, I forget the chemical reason, but soak steel wool in Coca cola and rub vigorously.
   - Nippulini - Thursday, 04/18/13 13:32:10 EDT
Oh yeah, forgot... toothpaste removes silver oxide tarnishing.
   - Nippulini - Thursday, 04/18/13 13:32:42 EDT
Home Abrasives :
Some abrasives are not what they once were. We used to use powdered Comet cleanser to clean old faded and chalky auto paint before priming to paint. The new versions are now "safe" for plastics, stainless and easy to scratch synthetic surfaces. It is no longer abrasive enough for the applications that I formerly used it for.

Tooth paste has had the same reduction in abrasive size. While its fine abrasives are good for off label applications they may not be the same as 40 years ago.
   - guru - Thursday, 04/18/13 19:08:49 EDT
More Abrasives :
For a very coarse abrasive in small quantities valve grinding compound works well. It is in an oil carrier and used to come in little two sided tins with a coarse and fine grit. If you need something that really cuts this is the stuff to use.

For paint, soft metals and plastics I like Dupont "orange" rubbing compound. It is about the same as a Tripoli in buffing compounds (may be the same considering the color).

A collection of all the above would not be hard to put together for those times when you "need it now".
   - guru - Friday, 04/19/13 11:52:54 EDT
Cleaner-up-ers : Dear Colleagues,

Thank you for all the sagely replies. toothpaste is good for a few things but, as the guru pointsa out, also slightly abrasive. It'll work as a burn creme in a pinch as well. To detarnish silver you put the object in a bath composed of a gallon of hot water & a cup of baking soda. Follow this ratio & allow for foam up. The key is to have your bath in an Al container. The chemistry gets a slight electric charge going and the whole reaction gets the tarnish off with NO scrubbing. Thought you'd be interested.
   Jon G. - Friday, 04/19/13 11:57:00 EDT
Cool! Thanks. Jon, I consider ALL my replies to be sagely... :D *my name is Sage*
   - Nippulini - Friday, 04/19/13 21:32:43 EDT
Anvil question : I have an old Anvil I would like to Know more about! it is Marked HAY-BUNDDE**** (at this point hammer strikes destroyed the rest of the Stampings) the Next line is Manufacturin**** then Brooklin NY
and 139 is the Weight in Hundred weight it would be 184# on the right side under the Horn at the Base it has the # 20859 and the only other mark on the Left side that I can tell is the Number 9...
I'm a Puttering Black smith and doing some Knief Making and I use the anvil quite a Bit.
   Andrew Strelczuk - Saturday, 04/20/13 19:38:30 EDT
anvil : It is a Hay-Budden, a top of the line anvil from a company started about 1890.
   Frank Turley - Saturday, 04/20/13 20:20:51 EDT
Anvil question : Andrew,

As Frank said, it is a Hay-Budden, a great anvil. The weight markings are in pounds though, not English hundredweights, as H-B is an American anvil. So thew weight is 139 pounds, not 184.
   Rich Waugh - Saturday, 04/20/13 21:54:34 EDT
serial # 183834 L-85 is one side 85 on the other side 2 under the horn. Good condition. Can you give me age and value of this anvil.
   - Carol - Saturday, 04/20/13 22:12:19 EDT
Hay Budden anvil #183834 2 is under the horn, L-85 on front and 85 on back. What is the age and value of this. It is in good condition.
   - Carol - Saturday, 04/20/13 22:14:18 EDT

Carol, That number indicates 1911 according to Anvils in America. Not old as anvils go.

Condition is always subjective. It is also common that old anvils have been repaired. Detection takes a sharp eye. Often an anvil in "too good" of condition should be suspect. But ocassionally there are old "mint" condition anvils.

Value depends on condition, location and weight and how motivated the buyer and seller. Location can make a 2 to 1 difference in selling price in the US. You did not say where you are in the world. If you are not in a high demand location then shipping must be part of your sales plan.

Weight below 100 pounds increases the price per pound considerably. Weight above the "common" weight of 125 to 150 also increases the price.

Top prices are obtained by sellers willing to spend months or longer advertising the anvil and how well they show it off (photos, description) plus willingness to ship. If you are lucky you might have someone locally willing to pay top price. But we are not all lucky.

So, anywhere from $100 to $3,000. . . without a LOT more information about the anvil, and you.
   - - guru - Sunday, 04/21/13 00:02:02 EDT
Coke to forge with : Is it possible to forge with petroleum coke from a refinery? I am just getting into this and Texas seems to have plenty of oil refineries and no coal mines.
   JD - Sunday, 04/21/13 01:39:48 EDT
Coke : JD, Yes, but foundry coke is too large (fist size) for a blacksmiths forge. You can purchase blacksmithing coke from a number of sources including our advertisers Blacksmiths Depot and Centaur Forge as well as others.

You can crush your own but it can be wasteful and labor intensive. However, sometimes you get a good deal on foundry coke (haul it away free. . ). OR other fuel is much too expensive.
   - guru - Sunday, 04/21/13 08:01:08 EDT
Petroleum coke : Pet coke, as it is called in the industry, is different from foundry or forging coke. It is a byproduct of the refining of crude oil into petroleum products and is a nasty product as far as metallurgical processes like forging go. It is fairly pure carbon, which is good, but the primary contaminant is sulfur, which is very bad for forging. There are very few volatiles in it (like any coke), so it is difficult to keep burning without continuous draft.

I wouldn't try to use it for forge fuel, even though I live within a couple of miles of the largest refinery in North America and could have gotten it for free. Nasty stuff.
   Rich Waugh - Sunday, 04/21/13 15:15:23 EDT
Vehicle stops : In the army we used to have a device which could be pulled across a road at a road block. A vehicle running over it would lose the front tyres and axle. I didn't pay much attention at the time but now would like to make something of the sort. Does anybody have any ideas? It needs to be based,probably, on a chain as it has to be pulled across the road by a rope when it is needed.
   philip in china - Sunday, 04/21/13 17:31:53 EDT
Philip in China : Just string a bunch of good-sized caltrops on a cable and you're good to stop, so to speak. The venerable caltrop has been disabling transportation since the Dark Ages and is just as viable today. A mite tricky to forge traditionally until you get the hang of isolating and moving the four masses, but you can whip them right out if you resort to a bit of welding.
   Rich Waugh - Sunday, 04/21/13 20:15:55 EDT
Road Spikes :
The version used by US police is about a foot wide mat that rolls up. I suspect the links are all punched or LASER cut then the spikes bent upward. You do nto want too many spikes or the effect is like a bed of nails where there are enough points to support a load without puncturing.

Rich's caltrops on a chain or cable would also work.

I suspect the mat type is made to provide multiple punctures as well as reduce the likelihood of getting wrapped around an axle on a front wheel drive vehicle. Caltrops also tend to get embedded in the roadway and are difficult to remove.

Cheap and dirty caltrops are made from heavy nails or spikes arc welded together.

To stop vehicles at some US Government locations (the White House. . ) There is a heavy steel plate with a curved vertical plate attached. The back of the plate (about 4 feet deep) is anchored on a pivot in a concrete bed. The whole is spring loaded and rises about 3 feet in an instant. This results in a steel wall designed to stop a fast moving heavy truck. When down it just looks like a steel plate in the roadway. Recently one accidentally sprung open as a diplomat's car was crossing it. . The force raising it was so much that it bent the frame of the limo sufficiently to call it totaled. Mechanical issues were blamed but I would bet it was human error.
   - guru - Sunday, 04/21/13 22:18:55 EDT
Road Spikes : Some versions of the Police spikes are hollow tubes sharpened and fitted into the mat or other carrier system.
The tubes stab thru the treads and come pulled out of the carrier. So its pretty much guarantee tyres will deflate. But they dont want to deflate too fast to possibly cause a crash.
   - Sven - Monday, 04/22/13 01:40:06 EDT
Tire shrredder : The ones we used at the cop shop did not use bent up spikes. They were tubular spikes that were swaged into punched holes in a chain mat composed of roughly 3'x8' plates linked together. The tubular spikes caused the air to escape much faster, deflating tires within a couple of seconds. There are cheaper versions sold that used punched spikes but they aren't as quick to deflate the tires.

The tip-up "one-way" shredders used in parking lots have large enough "spikes" that they deflate tires almost instantly, though if you have tough tires and go over them very slowly you can often avoid damage.
   Rich Waugh - Monday, 04/22/13 02:26:42 EDT
Stopping Vehicles : I don't need a high speed stop. Something that will write off 2 tyres and a front axle will do me fine. Thank you for your thoughts. I think I have a plan now.
   Philip in china - Monday, 04/22/13 02:57:59 EDT
Philip : Is Philip hoorawing us again?
   Frank Turley - Monday, 04/22/13 09:15:29 EDT
No, I think he is just trying to protect his parking place. . .
   - guru - Monday, 04/22/13 12:13:23 EDT
Caltrops are fairly easy to make if you start with the right sized stock---say 1/4" x 1/2" strap 2-3" long. Draw to a taper on each end so that when you hot cut down the center you get a set of square spikes. Then bend them out such that when you heat the center un-cut bit and give it a twist you get each point going to the vertex of a tetrahedron.

With practice you can do it by eye and not need tweaking. Caltrops are supposed to be quick and dirty as to use them you "threw them away"
   ThomasP - Monday, 04/22/13 19:24:29 EDT
Scissor Making : Check out this news story on scissor-making in China. In the video clip, the smith puts the steel into an old brick forge and heats it - in an induction coil! Ming Dynasty meets the 20th century.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-22160739
   Rich Waugh - Monday, 04/22/13 19:55:54 EDT
Rich, great piece. The fellow had a nice looking well lit shop so he must be doing OK in that traditional market. One thing the induction forge does is help keep the shop much cleaner. But from the looks of it this fellow would have had a clean shop even if it had a dirt floor. . .
   - guru - Tuesday, 04/23/13 07:58:00 EDT
Non-spike tire stopping : So with the advent of ride-flat tires, meth-amphetamine drug using drivers who won't stop for Satan himself, and idiots with IEDs in their trunks, the Army has come up with neat innovation. It is a long net made of seat-belt type webbing with a few hooks randomly placed within the net. The spikes are NOT designed to puncture, rather dig in to the rubber and hold. Once the vehicle runs over this device, the hooks grab in, then the net rolls up around the tires. The webbing is so dense at the roll up point that the transmission stalls out (FWD) because it cannot break the netting. Some "genius" probably figured this out after breaking his vacuum cleaner from picking up materials that stall out the beater bar.... or weed wacking over a line that wraps up and stalls the motor.
   - Nippulini - Wednesday, 04/24/13 08:52:32 EDT
Anvil Assessment : Dear Guru & COlleagues,

I was reading an old reprint section on assessing an anvil's worthiness. It said to drop a 1/2 " ball bearing from a certain height & it would bounce back to your hand or nearly so. below 1/2 way or less, forget about it. How does everyone out there in anvilfire land assess an anvil?
   Jon G. - Wednesday, 04/24/13 11:57:12 EDT
Charcoal : Got tired of some problems I'm having w a forge, so I brought in honest charcoal to see if the cleaner fuel made a difference. I'm not sure, need feedback.

I bought Lassari Mesquite Charcoal, for BBQ, at a grocery store. I tried to run the forge about like I sould w coke (not 100% successfully, but I had a fire). Problem: I expected to get the proverbial bed of coals like fire, but I had a constant cloud of medium red sparks (I think that is OK), but also, I always had a little smoke, and a low intensity "bloom" of fire over the tuyere. This did not go away in about an hour of experimenting.

Is this to be expected? Or is commercial charcoal kinda low grade and still contains the lovely "flavorants" that make the meat so good.

Should I have just let the fire stew longer, or change brands?

Comments?
   - Rudy - Wednesday, 04/24/13 12:34:50 EDT
Old Reprint Article : Testing Anvils Jon, I suspect the article you found was a copy or paraphrase or bad edit of my original article including my test data.

Note that things other than hardness effect rebound. Rusty or painted surfaces do not test well. Rough or pitted surface also does not test well. The center or "sweet spot" of an anvil will test better than out on a thin heal. Use of an unhardened ball (not a true ball bearing) will test much lower than a hard ball bearing.

A rebound less than 45% is a pretty soft surface or an ASO (Anvil Shaped Object)
   - guru - Wednesday, 04/24/13 13:03:42 EDT
LAZZARI brand Charcoal : Rudy, According to the LAZZARI site they make numerous grades of charcoal including briquets. Briquettes will not do. My best guess is you want their oak restaurant grade.

Note that fuel lump size is critical. The larger the lumps the lower the surface area per volume and the lower the fire density or total BTU. Lumps around an inch or two (max) work best in the forge.

Fire depth is also a factor. The lower the density the fuel the deeper the fire needs to be. Charcoal requires a fire deeper than coal or coke by about 30%.

So, be sure you are using lump charcoal, break it up if needed and keep your fire sufficiently deep.

When adding fuel, add it around the edges. This lets it dry before it gets too hot and reduces popping and "fire fleas".
   - guru - Wednesday, 04/24/13 13:52:41 EDT
Rudy : Wear a long sleeved shirt if the flying fleas and fleeing flys continue.
   Frank Turley - Wednesday, 04/24/13 14:02:11 EDT
ancient chinese anvil : I have to design a movie set of an ancient chinese blacksmith shop. Does anyone know what their anvils looked like. Were they similar to western ones?
   jerry k - Wednesday, 04/24/13 16:14:23 EDT
Chinese Anvils:

Jerry, Chinese anvils are much different than modern Western anvils. However while modern ones still have traditional Chinese features they have picked up western features such as a conical horn.

Among other things, Chinese anvils were often made of cast iron and through wear developed a bread loaf shape to the working face.

See the anvils in the link. The one from the 1920's it the same shape as one in the Scissors Making video linked above a few posts. For your purpose I would use the design shown as #1 in my article OR like those in the painting at the bottom.

Note that these may ALL be current and ancient Chinese designs dependent on region.
   - guru - Wednesday, 04/24/13 16:34:34 EDT
Jerry K : Hey, cool; somebody actually asked before the had the set and props built!

(I'm still miffed that they got the steerboard on the wrong {port} sides of the ships in the History Channel series "Vikings.")

Go viking: www.longshipco.org

Visit your National Parks: www.nps.gov
   Bruce Blackistone -Atli- - Thursday, 04/25/13 10:52:50 EDT
Chinese Bellows :
I should have also pointed out that the Chinese use the same box bellows as the Japanese (who probably got them from the Chinese). I've seen video of these in use in the Philippines as well.

Oriental Box Bellows Note that some are cylindrical as well as rectangular.
   - guru - Friday, 04/26/13 08:31:15 EDT
generators and welders : Hello there
I have a lincoln 255 mig welder. Is it possible to power this machine with a 9000 watt gasoline generator?
   Dan - Friday, 04/26/13 09:40:15 EDT
generators and welders : 9000 / 240V = 37.5 amps (max). If your welder will operate on a 30A 240 circuit breaker then it MIGHT work on your generator. Besides the capacity issue is the ramp up issue. Motor generators do not put out full power until the load is applied and the motor governor has time to rev up to full power. So welding starts erratic then smooths out. It can be frustrating to develop the necessary technique.

According to the manual for a Power MIG 255, it requires 41 to 50 Amps at 230V for 200A and 250A output. The rated fuse or breaker is 60A.

So, it may be possible to do light welding but you are supplying about 2/3 the recommended power or less. I do not have a clue how this is going to effect the electronics in the welder. On a buzz box I would say sure it will work using 1/8" or smaller rods on 3/16" or less material. But the engineering requirements on a MIG machine are more complicated (in other words it might work until the welder is fried).
   - guru - Friday, 04/26/13 12:01:22 EDT
US Rev War Cart Forge : Gang.


Here in Canada, we are in the middle of 3 years of our War of 1812, 200 year anniversary. There are calls for historic interpreter / blacksmiths to demonstrate at various living history museums, public and re-enactor's events.


Sad truth, most hobbyist smiths are using at best 1880's to 1870's era small dish portable forges. There are some documented plans available for British military 'portable' forges from the 1830 period, with similar designs used during the US Civil War. These are large heavy units based around modified gun carriages.


A number of years back I had seen a much smaller 'cart' forge in the hands of a re-enactor at Military Through the Ages in Jamestown. This was a unit with two light carriage wheels and extendable handles, maybe two by three feet. There was a drum bellows that fit below the forge table, which was set up to handle either side blast for charcoal or converted quickly to bottom blast for coal. I had a long conversation with the fellow, he assured me (??) it was a historically accurate design from the 1770's.


I can NOT find any of my photographs!


I have spent a fair time searching the internet in hopes of finding something. The drawing did not have any details, but appears to be an 'industrial' portable charcoal forge with a similar set up. My guess given the cast metal parts and framing that this would be again from the later 1800's.


The photo was taken of an antique unit someone had scored in England. (shown on a general blacksmithing group discussion).



SO - my question is :


Can anyone provide ANY kind references leading back to the American Revolutionary War?.

I am certain I can 'fake' out a historically suitable design and construction, at least good enough for 'from the rope line' observation at public events.


(Hey - my specialty is Viking Age...)


Darrell


feel free to contact me directly info@warehamforge.ca
   Darrell Markewitz - Friday, 04/26/13 12:02:09 EDT
generators and welders : Hello again. Regarding my question about running a lincoln 255 on a 9000 watt generator. I found out it doesn't work. It seems to go into self preservation mode and won't even turn the wire feed. My ancient stick welder works fine on the generator provided I keep the amperage not to high and use a smaller diameter rod. So at least I can weld remotely with something.
   Dan - Friday, 04/26/13 12:13:39 EDT
Portable Forge for 1812 : Jymm Hoffman built all sorts of equipment, including an artillery forge, for Ft. Ligonier: http://hoffmansforge.com/artillery_and_wagons

Picture at: http://hoffmansforge.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/images/TForge.6064108_large.jpg

There are some further details in John Muller's Treatise of Artillery, 1749. I have a copy somewhere around here, but you should be able to pull it via ILL.

Keep us informed of your progress.
   Bruce Blackistone -Atli- - Friday, 04/26/13 15:20:34 EDT
Portable Forges : I recommended a period DIY forge wagon such as I describe in Blacksmith of 1776 on our story page. While I have no historical evidence of such it is plausible and fits the period.
   - guru - Friday, 04/26/13 15:43:31 EDT
Anvil Price : The landmark Cox Hardware in Mt Vernon KY auctioned out of business today. Three generations of Cox men since founded in 1907.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHYiJNW0OU0

They had a nice Peter Wright anvil. Only about 75 pounds but with a nice clean face. I have a few already, but thought I would go ahead and try for $250 or so.

Sold for $800.
   - Tom H - Saturday, 04/27/13 15:36:13 EDT
Auctions : Yowee! You just never know with auctions. I have a 100# Peter Wright in very good condition that I'd cheerfully part with for $800. Even $500. Maybe even less on a good day. $800 is ridiculous for a working anvil that small.
   Rich Waugh - Saturday, 04/27/13 17:45:16 EDT
Anvil price : A good auctioneer and shills can work wonders.
   Frank Turley - Saturday, 04/27/13 18:46:08 EDT
Auction Prices :
There are several factors to overly high auction prices. One, is auction fever, you start bidding on something you think you must have then keep bidding way over your limit (if you had one). Another is machismo. . you start bidding and demonstrate your manhood by over bidding ANY price no matter how ridiculous. And the last is simply not knowing what the value of an item is. Naive bidders often run prices up and pay too much.

Shills, bidders working for the auctioneer, are illegal and pretty rare in my experience. The closest I've seen was a banker running up prices at a bankruptcy auction.

However, other buyers are often better than shills and will bid someone up for a variety of reasons. Often a bidder brags or acts like they can buy everything. So other bidders bid them up and then drop out when the price is well over market. Sometimes bidders don't like someone from outside their area buying in THEIR territory and either out bid the outsider OR run them up and dump the item on them. The last is if there is family or a Widow involved. Sometimes the buyers run up all the prices as a gift to the family. If you think this is going on and you are looking for "deals" then go home unless you are in the charity business. This is common at farm auctions and in small communities.

The auction business lives on these factors and having a good number of newbies to the bidding process. It takes numbers to make a good auction (for the seller).
   - guru - Saturday, 04/27/13 21:29:16 EDT
Oakland Ca. anvil : Hello
I just picked up an anvil made in Oakland Ca. 150 lbs I can't find any info on it. Thought maybe you could help? Thanks
   Chris - Saturday, 04/27/13 23:55:31 EDT
Whatever happened to........ : Does anyone remember a guy from Petaluma CA, named Joe Ouelette who used to come to SOFA when it was at Studebaker's?
   - 3dogs - Sunday, 04/28/13 04:12:10 EDT
3dogs, I recognize the name but have not heard it in a long time.
   - guru - Sunday, 04/28/13 13:22:21 EDT
Oakland Ca. anvil :
Chris, you may send me photos to help ID it. Are you sure it says Made-In and not just the place. . . There are many Chinese imports that have the location of the importer on them.

However, there are also many farriers anvils made all over the US that are short lived and not well known.
   - guru - Sunday, 04/28/13 13:27:38 EDT
JOE O. : Jock; It has been quite a while since I've seen him. If I remember correctly, he and Norm Larson were friends. I sold him a humongous, pristine Columbian anvil at Emmert's, way back when.
   - 3dogs - Sunday, 04/28/13 16:38:08 EDT
Portable Forge : Darrell - I have to agree with Atli. Jymm based his portable forge on Mid 18th century British Army designs - I forget exactly where he found the design, but we've discussed it a couple times (The forges are side, not bottom blown). He currently has two that he takes to Seven Years War (French & Indian War) and Rev War events. It depends on whether he has assistants with him if he brings one of them or both of them.
This weekend, at Ft. Frederick's Market Fair he just had one set up. For the 250th anniversary at Ft. Niagara he set both up. At Ft. Ligonier, he typically operates their stationary forge. Contatc on the web can be found by searching for Hoffman's Forge, currently located physically in Ambridge, PA
   - Gavainh - Sunday, 04/28/13 22:19:24 EDT
I went to the source material for those forges and the author noted that the two wheeled carts were what the British were using but that a 4 wheel cart (as the French used) would be more convenient and easier to move.

I also noted that they had not weather protection. . . Neither bellows or charcoal fuel like to be wet.
   - guru - Monday, 04/29/13 06:42:51 EDT
Mystery Metal : One of our crew came across some "shim stock" that was being disposed from an aviation facility. It's non magnetic and appears to be zinc or some other light-gray metal clad in a top and bottom layer of brass or bronze. It looks to be between 3/32 and < 1/8" thick; so it's pretty hefty stuff. So far I have not found any "brass-clad shim stock" (or related terms) in several Google searches that look like this stuff.

I think it would be wise to have some idea of what I'm working with before I work with it.
   Bruce Blackistone -Atli- - Monday, 04/29/13 07:20:56 EDT
Mystery Metal :
Hmmmmm. . . almost sounds like coin stock but I would bet its a bearing material. But it might be electrical in nature, copper clad aluminium. It is both cheaper than copper AND lighter. In aircraft it might be used as a buss bar or heat sink for solid state devices.

Search for copper clad aluminum plate
   - guru - Monday, 04/29/13 12:36:04 EDT
A lot of aircraft stuff is cadmium plated. I doubt someone as experienced as Bruce would mistake that for brass or bronze, but it *is* yellowish.
   Mike BR - Monday, 04/29/13 17:31:29 EDT
Folks might like youtube "Solar Forging John Little"
   - Jonathan John Little - Tuesday, 04/30/13 10:52:56 EDT
Mystery Metal : I trust cadmium doesn't get green verdigris spots? (As I remember, it's frequently used as a coating to prevent corrosion.) On the other claw, maybe it’s beryllium bronze! It does look a lot like the illustrations of the copper-clad aluminum product that Jock suggested, but more “brassy” and less “coppery.” Today is my “paperwork/housework/farmwork/churchwork/go-to-the-dump” day, but I may fire-up and see what this stuff does hot and cold tomorrow. I just don't want to pull a Madame Curie on my voyage of discovery.
   Bruce Blackistone -Atli- - Tuesday, 04/30/13 12:07:26 EDT
Solar Forge :
Very Interesting. Thanks for sharing.

In the 1800's the French produced some of the highest known temperatures using a large solar furnace. This was used to melt metals that previously could not be melted. Melting platinium, rhodidium and tungsten.

The problem with solar furnaces is that they often produce much more heat than necessary. To be dependable in most locations they need to be oversized to produce enough heat on overcast or partly cloudy days. But this means that on bright clear days there may be much to much heat. To control the heat a system that defocuses the reflectors is needed. If a large capacity mirror is too focused it can burn through metals and refractory materials. So, besides tracking you need a control system that defocuses to control temperature as needed.
   - guru - Tuesday, 04/30/13 12:16:23 EDT
Solar Forge from ol flat screen TV : I did a YouTube search on that subject (to the left in bold). Apparently, the old projector type flat screen TV's have a huge lens that can be focused to heat and melt steel, glass, cinder blocks, etc. Boils a cup of water in 5 seconds. Kind of scary, but as Jock noted the heat is too intense to really use well. In addition having to move the whole contraption every 5 minutes, clouds, etc.
   - Nippulini - Tuesday, 04/30/13 20:20:49 EDT
Brass Melting : I am doing a lost wax casting. I just had a failed attempt because the brass about half way melted started burning yellow flames inside the crucible. I was almost at the point of pouring so I was skimming the scum off the top of the molten metal. The tool I was using to skim kept bringing up light fluffy yellow ashy bits and every pass through caused large amounts of yellow flame. I eventually got to the bottom of the melt and had no liquid metal, just a large pile of light yellow/grey ash. I don't have a pyrometer and I don't have the resources to make this mistake a second time. The crucible was not capped, it was open topped, and I did not use any borax flux. I need to know what other steps I can take besides capping the crucible and using flux to do to ensure I get a clean pour and not burning the metal.
   Peter Cosgrove - Tuesday, 04/30/13 20:24:08 EDT
Peter, It sounds like you burned up the brass. The yellow ash was probably burning zinc (toxic) and all the copper went to scale you were scraping off IF you actually had brass to start with.

Crucibles contaminated with unknown or different metals should not be used a different metal. They are virtually impossible to clean so once something is melted in a crucible it should be dedicated to that type of alloy.

Step 1 is to be sure of the metal you are melting.
Step 2 is to break up the metal so it is not too large of pieces.
Step 3 is to be sure to heat the crucible, not the metal.
Step 4 is to cover the metal with charcoal powder or flux.
Step 5 is to watch the melt. When it is good and fluid scrape the cover and slag with a steel or stainless tool. When the melt is ready, it is ready - nothing else should dictate the pour timing.

Prior to starting the melt you need to practice lifting, moving and pouring from the crucible. The moves should be smooth and easy. If you need to lift or move parts of the furnace you need the proper tools. If you need to put down any of the hot parts or crucible you need to be sure to have a clean hot surface (refractory brick) to set the parts on.
   - guru - Tuesday, 04/30/13 21:13:13 EDT
Brass Melting : Thanks for the reply. So my next question is, the burning was because of high temperature oxidation or simply because it was too hot or a mixture? I am using a single venturi burner propane home built smelting furnace so I have no method of controlling the temperature besides adjusting the propane pressure. My worry is that I got it so hot that I was burning the metal. If the flux layer will protect from the oxidation and I don't have to worry about the temp then I won't need to remake a different style crucible. I have a 2 venturi burner propane forge that I can forge weld with but I will have to make a different style of crucible to fit and the crucible cover will get fiddly trying to pull it out to check the metal visually. I am also using Lazzari hardwood charcoal to pre-heat the casting so for heat sources to smelt the brass which would you suggest, the already working crucible/furnace that I already have all the tools I need to pour and I have done lead/aluminum castings with, a new crucible in the forge or a rigged charcoal oven with a new crucible?
   Peter Cosgrove - Tuesday, 04/30/13 23:03:32 EDT
Brass Melting : Peter, Yes, it was too hot for whatever you were melting. I suspect bad material. There is always some oxidation. When melting brass some zinc flares off (bright white flames, white deposits) and is often replaced with new zinc if the metal is remelted over and over. But you should have had a lot of copper left over if you burned off the zinc. That is why I think you have metal that is not brass. Maybe something plated?

Most brass melting in small furnaces is done without temperature controls. When it is melted, it is melted. You usually heat as fast as possible with as much heat as possible from common fuel gasses with the exception of acetylene - TOO HOT). Usually the pouring temperature is a couple hundred degrees hotter than the melting point but that temperature is usually reached quite quickly after the metal melts (usually in the time you de-slag and prepare to pour).

What do you mean "pre-heat the casting"? Do you mean the plaster mold or investment? This should be thoroughly calcined (heated to about 1300F) to drive out all the water as well as much of the water that is chemically combined with the plaster.

PLEASE Read our article on Metal Fume Fever. Be sure you have plenty of ventilation in your work area (I prefer outdoors) but a local exhaust fan is also good.
   - guru - Tuesday, 04/30/13 23:29:52 EDT
Brass Melting : aye, I went back through the slag I scooped out of the crucible and it is heavy and solid with a bright yellow metal. I have a feeling the weight of the tool I was using to skim the slag off the top made me think the stuff I was skimming was very light weight. It is in very porous solidified streams now covered in a white powder. The brass was new brass from bar stock mixed with sheet brass scraps also new. Yes, I was pre-heating the mold using a oven brick throwtogether box oven with a vacuum blower using Larizza hardwood charcoal at the same time I was smelting the brass in the single burner venturi furnace so I could pour into a hot mold. I can delay the casting until I can get my hands on a pyrometer but I am kind of stunned that I got a single venturi burner up to that kind of temperature. The color inside the crucible never got above a bright orange/burnt yellow color and I could clearly see the gold of the melted brass color. I will have to make some more flux because all mine has iron filings in it for forge welding. Should I pre-heat the crucible empty before adding the brass slugs/flux mixture for the next smelt? I can't help but think that if I had a closed top crucible that would reduce the zinc burnout due to the reduction in oxygen inside the crucible. And yes, this whole process is taking place outside my shop, not inside.
   Peter Cosgrove - Wednesday, 05/01/13 01:51:52 EDT
Peter, It sounds to me like you just waited too long to make the pour. If the mold was in your melt out furnace and you took the time to pull it out and set it up AFTER the melt looked right then that is all the time it would take to burn off a bunch of the zinc. Depending on the size of your melt and pour I would setup the calcined mold before putting brass in the crucible OR at the same time that you put brass in the crucible. I would toss a piece of kaowool over the mold to keep it hot.

Crucibles that have been in storage are often preheated to be sure they are dry. But in my small 5 pound crucible I put some metal in the crucible when I start the heat then add some as it melts and makes more room. Never had a problem.

Note that it helps to stir the melt to keep the zinc mixed well so less of it burns off. Generally the slag and flux will stick to the stirring rod. I use a bar I've forged a point on. The brass slag pops off the taper fairly easily.

One down side to working outdoors is the ambient light can be so bright it is difficult to judge temperatures.

My biggest failures doing lost wax was failure to properly calcine the molds. Steam in the molds filled the brass full of porosity and often blew much of the metal out of the mold. The few that were properly calcined worked fine and those using petro bond (Delft Clay brand) also worked fine.
   - guru - Wednesday, 05/01/13 10:18:34 EDT
Hard to read : I have a catalog from an online company. They are listing "steel balls" up to 2" in diameter. The description is POORLY phrased. My interpretation is they are selling two types of ball: Chrome and carbon. One of them (?) is described as "Widely used in precision ball bearings".

The price is OK for what I want, but I wonder: The Chrome are described as: Grade 25, Hardness 60-67C. The carbon are described: Grade 1000, hardness 60-67C. I do not understand those descriptions.

Can anyone here translate? Or is this a classic case of a salesman trying to convince the customer 1018 and A36 are the same thing?
   - Rudy - Wednesday, 05/01/13 12:36:12 EDT
Ball, Hard to Read :
OK, The grade number is precision in millionths of an inch. The higher the number the less round the ball. Grade 1000 is round within .001". Fine for an anvil, not for a good bearing.

McMaster-Carr sell a variety of alloy balls. 52100 (bearing steel) 2" balls sell for $20. Not bad. But a 2.25" ball is more than twice as much. A 3" grade 100 is $115. This is the only alloy they list balls over 1".

The hardness of the balls you list is very hard but cheap balls can be made from mild steel and then case hardened. Check the yield strengths as listed by McMaster-Carr (Typically 290,000 to 300,000 PSI). Cheap balls are 44,000 PSI and the chrome is as much part of the hardness as the underlying steel.

Generally when listed as Chrome it means they are plated. This slows but does not stop rust because chrome is porous. To prevent rust good tools are copper flashed, nickle plated, then chromed over that.

IF you are going to weld the ball to a shank I would go with a cheap ball as the high alloy balls may not like welding. Use SS rod in any case.

---------------------------

Note that McMaster-Carr's prices are always on the high side BUT you can get nearly anything from them search the ONE source. I just bought some new air hose and all new air line fittings for all my air tools from them. Before that I bought hardware and concrete anchors. Prior to that electrical receptacles for 220V. Taps, paint, drill bits. . . tool steel. . . Since we are out in the sticks they are like having all the resources of a major city. It costs a little but it is less than driving a couple hours and the time involved.

   - guru - Wednesday, 05/01/13 14:13:55 EDT
Balls NOT a swear word : OK, I was thinking of using themas a source of metal for a special purpose. Price was OK and saved me the trouble of trying to find similar stuff since I already had their advertisement.


Thanks for the info. I'll pass on this one.
   - Rudy - Wednesday, 05/01/13 14:22:54 EDT
Why were my parenthesis removed from my previous post title?
   - Rudy - Wednesday, 05/01/13 14:24:11 EDT
Specialty Metals. Note that we make a small amount from our links to On-Line-Metals that helps keep us on-line. Sometimes they have the thing I'm looking for, sometimes not. I have a whole list of various places I buy metal from (both local and on-line). Inventories, especially sizes, vary a lot.
   - guru - Wednesday, 05/01/13 16:54:48 EDT
parenthesis filters. . . Some field have them, some not. Depending on how the scripts use fields we've had to filter out some characters to prevent insertion of code that can be used to hack a server. I can't remember why these are on that particular field.

Hacking attempts are a significant amount of daily traffic on all servers. Most is carried out robotically by virus infected PC's (zombies) that probe long lists of servers day in and day out. You can thank the team of Bill Gates and Uncle Sam for this and the continued threat of cyber terrorism.
   - guru - Wednesday, 05/01/13 17:06:35 EDT
Metal balls : In the valve trade metal balls are used in ball check valves. At VOGT we used 440C grade 10 and grade 25 as standard. We also used 316L ss, 410ss, Monel, and several grades of Inconel.Smallest we used was a 9/16", biggest 6". In fact I have a 6" monel ball that was scrapped.
The bigger balls were very heavy, and caused back pressure, so hollow balls were used above about 3"
We welded 440C balls to shanks all the time with 309ss rod. Worked well.
   ptree - Thursday, 05/02/13 12:26:12 EDT
Melting Brass Take 3 : Alright. I am currently staring at a beautiful bright red / ruddy orange smelt of brass and flux. The problem I have now is, what do I do with the flux? Do I just pour it or try to skim it?
   Peter Cosgrove - Thursday, 05/02/13 12:48:22 EDT
Flux, should only be a small amount to skim. When you pour it usually stays in the crucible and the heavier metal runs out. It a little gets in a hot mold it usually rises to the top of the sprue.
   - guru - Thursday, 05/02/13 15:51:36 EDT
Microforge rebuild page : Just threw this together real quick. It documents the progression of rebuilding my microforge.

http://www.greatnippulini.com/microforge.html
   - Nippulini - Thursday, 05/02/13 17:40:14 EDT
He's workin' on it. . . (broke).
   - guru - Friday, 05/03/13 07:23:50 EDT
Contact Info : Does anyone have contact info for Douglas Freund author of Pounding Out the Profits? I have an email that has worked in the past but I had not used in in several years and recent attempts to contact him at that address have gone unanswered. I recently picked up a 500 lb Bradley Guided helve, serial # 222407 and I'm trying to get a date of manufacture for it. Thanks.

Patrick
   Patrick Nowak - Friday, 05/03/13 08:42:38 EDT
Gantry Crane : Guru
I'm planning to build a 2 ton gantry crane and would like to use some 3"x3"x3/8" angle that I already have for the base. I say 2 ton only because that is the capacity of the plain trolleys and chainfalls I have, so I thought I might as well build it to that capacity. The base is going to be on casters. The width between the supports will be roughly 10 ft and the height will be less than the 10 ft ceiling of my shop.

My question is what would be the best orientation to weld two pieces of angle together for the base ? I could make a channel or a T. A channel facing up or T with the 6" side down would both give me a wide enough surface to bolt the casters to. I'm planning to use pipe or square tube for the uprights and the inverted T configuration gives me a lot of weld area if I notch the uprights to fit over the T.
Any suggestions on the appropriate size for the uprights and I beam ?
Thank You
Chris
   Chris Smith - Saturday, 05/04/13 08:04:29 EDT
Rolling A Frame Cranes- the best thing to do is actually have your design engineered, by an engineer. Failing that, copy something that HAS been engineered. 2 tons is nothing to trifle with, when its being directed by that ol' devil, gravity.
If I was you, I would go to a website like the Wallace Crane company, and see what sizes and techniques they use- after all, they sell em to the public, and have to represent themselves in lawsuits if somebody is injured- hence, they tend to overbuild a bit. Most commercial models do NOT use an inverted T for anything approaching 2 ton capacity- instead, they use various sorts of triangular trusses, which are much stronger.
   - Ries - Saturday, 05/04/13 12:24:12 EDT
Crane Design :
On the I beam everything is determined by the span and resulting deflection at full capacity (rated load times 1.5). Note that deflection goes up by the CUBE of the increase in span. Deflection should be limited to 1/4" max or the load will roll to the middle of the span and not be movable. . . More deflection is also springy which can be dangerous.

Wallace Gantry (the most popular maker of small gantry cranes) does a very smart thing from an engineering point of view, they use pinned joints at the base and top of the A's. This makes the frame seem a little "floppy" but it assures stresses are simple easy to calculate shear loads. They also use flame cut brackets that fit around the top of the I beam so there is no welding or undefined stresses on the beam. These can be drawn and machine cut (8 required). Bolted joints can be used similarly. It is something to think about.

I've speced out, setup and used two 10T + Wallace gantries, one with a 12 foot span and another with a 30 foot span (28 feet tall). While I was not crazy about them to start I learned to appreciate their engineering and convenience.

The bottom span of your "A" is mostly a tension member and thus not too important how the sections are turned or joined. I would use the two angles with a gap between and the legs turned out at the top. Wheels and legs could fit between, both as pinned joints.

I would make the legs from pipe or square structural tubing.

As noted, the cross beam is determined by span and deflection

Load 6000 pounds (2T x 1.5)
Span - Beam = deflection
10Ft - W6 x 15.5 = .251"
10Ft - W6 x 20 = .180"
12Ft - W6 x 25 = .249"
12Ft - W8 x 17 = .232"
14Ft - W8 x 24 = .2564"
14Ft - W10 x 17 = .256"

All the above are at max deflection and stress is above 10,000 PSI. I might use beams with a little less deflection and stress. Often the beam selected is determined by availability. So I start there and then look at what works the best.

This should give you an idea of how to start and what your parameters are.
   - guru - Saturday, 05/04/13 13:03:58 EDT
Hoists and Cranes : I missed something about an inverted T frame above. . . very bad design. Stick to A frames. The part of a gantry that takes up space is the base length (and track).

I select beams differently than many engineers. The schooled method is to calculate the needed section modulus and then search the available beams. I wrote a program with an AISC database where I put in the span and load and the deflection and stress for two cases (distributed load and point load) is returned. Crane loads are always center point loads. It is a fun program to play with and makes it easy to find beams that fit the need.

The math often tells you things you know but in numbers. The first one that jumped out at me was that a 20 foot piece of 1/8" (.405 OD) pipe deflects 28" from its own weight. A 1/4" (.54) pipe 18". Now, think about someone carrying a 20 foot long bar at its middle and the amount of sag and bounce. . .

In my old shop I installed a mono-rail that was supported by a special truss built into the roof perpendicular to the roof trusses. It was supported at 6 foot intervals (every third roof truss) and was made from W10 x 19# beam. The deflection at 6,000lbs. is only .017" per 6Ft span thus distributed the load to at least 3 connectors with imperceptible motion. The rail has two 2 ton hoists and a spreader 8 feet long so I could lift 4 tons (8,000) pounds. The heaviest thing I lifted with it was my shaper which I think weighs about 5,000 pounds. There was no creaking of joints or cracking of plaster or any noticeable sag or springing.

The size of the beam was determined partially because I had purchased the 44 feet of beam for $100. . . It was in pieces and I had to weld it together but being supported every 6 feet this was not an issue I worried about due to the low stresses (under 6,000 PSI).

In an old foundry museum in Petersburg, VA they have a huge wooden jib crane about 30 feet tall with a 20 foot reach. Hoisting was by a hand crank winch at the base. The rotating post of the crane supported the roof and the roof the post. . .

Another old shop in Petersburg has a rectilinear hoist with a 30 Ft or more span. It runs on a crane (RR type rail) resting on wooden beams supported by brick columns. Nobody would design a crane this way today but it still works, easily lifting 5 tons or more. .

Some friends that worked on sports cars used a single wooden truss in a garage to lift engines with a come-a-long. There was a lot of creaking and bouncing. . . It worked to pickup up 300 pounds or so but was tweeky. A single piece of 2x6 bridging several trusses would have distributed the load and helped a lot.

In our old family shop where I setup the Wallace cranes the previous owners worked on heavy equipment. The building was built from two 60 foot long riveted bridge trusses setting on concrete piers. Light wood roof framing rests on the trusses. To lift engines they had an oak timber about 10x10" spanning the 13 feet between trusses. On occasion when I had odd lifting to do I put a crane trolley on the angle iron flanges of the truss. I'll need to find the same to move some equipment soon . . .

The worst crane I have ever used was in of all places a nuclear power plant! A plant engineer had designed the bridge that spanned about 60Ft and based the size of the beam on stress. The problem was that when lifting anything heavy the load would bounce up and down like it was being lifted with a rubber band. The first lift I made was a canister that weighed 7,000 pounds. I tried to lift it gently and stopping at 2" inches it bounced enough to strike the floor like a giant sledge hammer. . . To use the crane without setting off the seismic detectors you had to lift fast for about a foot and then stop and watch the load bounce. . . Rated at 15 tons the electric trolley could not climb the hill created by the deflection when lifting a third the rated load. . . This was a miserable crane designed by some engineering school graduate with no experience or knowledge of cranes.

One interesting bit of crane technology is the use of two piece bridge beams made of two different beam sections. The bottom is made of heavy beam with a flange of 3/4 to 1" and the top made of lighter beam to create the height to reduce deflection. The heavy bottom section is to reduce wheel deflection and wear. The other interesting feature of these beams is that when they split the beam they do it on a zig-zag that creates hexagonal holes when shifted and welded back together. This produces a taller and thus stiffer beam with lightening holes and heavy duty bottom flange. Rating these is a fancy bit of engineering beyond my skill and probably done with and FEA system.

My current shop building is too light to support any kind of lifting, so I had to purchase a fork lift (old/used $4,200). This is OK and has other benefits BUT is high maintenance. I will put in some steel frame supported mono-rails when I can but it is difficult. In a section I plane to close in as a machine shop I plan a mon-rail with three support columns. Two will be either side of the entry door and one in the far wall. That will get things in and out without sliding or rolling. But once in they will need to be scooted. . . I need to put another over the main entry to lift things on and off a truck but the space is filling up. . .
   - guru - Saturday, 05/04/13 15:36:36 EDT
Crane Beam : After describing it I remembered making a drawing and posting it a long time ago.

hydrid crane beam design

This is a hybrid beam used to obtain crane bridge beam specific features. For each beam split this way you get double the usable length as well as increasing the height 150% and thus the stiffness. An 18" beam then has the stiffness of a 27" beam. However, stresses go up, particularly at the weld. Careful engineering is required. There is also a fabrication cost consideration which cancels out much of the added strength advantage.
   - guru - Saturday, 05/04/13 16:16:54 EDT
All fixed up... oops on my part.

http://www.greatnippulini.com/microforge.html
   - Nippulini - Saturday, 05/04/13 17:19:42 EDT
Jock, a note about your above idea.... when you cut the web of the beam, what's to stop the camber of the beam?
   - Nippulini - Saturday, 05/04/13 17:43:52 EDT
castellated beams : dear nip, reference the fabricated beam illustrated above. The process of cutting the zigzag line along the web of the beam causes that edge to contract and the two sections when separated go into a pronounced curve. This distortion causes very large stresses. To prevent movement whilst cutting is being done by profiling machine, the cut is interrupted every few feet so as to leave the two halves connected. When these last bits are severed after the main cut has been completed the two halves spring apart quite violently unless restrained in a jig. Though I doubt whether many people will attempt this type of construction, I thought I would point this out just in case. Very dangerous if working on trestles or benches, even on the ground it is very easy to have trapped feet. Once separated you effectively have two large T sections which then have to be straightened. The company that I worked for, that attempted to incorporate this design into their product,eventually had to resort to sending the sections out to another company to have them rolled straight. Prior to that they had tried clamping each piece to yet another large beam. The large number of clamps required, and the forces involved taxed them to the limit, as did the resulting cumbersome assembly. This made offering up and alignment difficult even with overhead cranes, and turning the whole assembly for welding and controlling welding distortion was fun to observe.
   - Chris E - Sunday, 05/05/13 02:16:45 EDT
Gantry Cranes : Many thanks for the useful information on gantry cranes. A boatbuilder friend loaned me an adjustable height one on casters with an aluminum I beam years ago while I was building a dry dock frame for his sailboat.
I have missed that thing since I gave it back. It's not something I need often but in a one man shop it sure comes in handy, especially having two chainfalls on trolleys to lift something long.
regards
Chris
   Chris Smith - Sunday, 05/05/13 08:48:23 EDT
Gantry Cranes and Chain Hoists : Chris, I'm sure that aluminum gantry was one that Wallace sells. Aluminum lifting equipment is very nice for portability. I have an old 2 ton Yale (full sized industrial chain hoist) the one man can hang. The old two ton Triplex cast iron hoist is all two men can hang.

Note that real industrial hoists are NOT the same as the little toy Import (HF) chain hoists of the same rating. A critical feature of a chain hoist is the friction brake that holds the load from falling and allows controlled lowering. In an industrial duty 2 ton hoist the brake disk looks like a 10 to 12 inch diameter automotive clutch disk. In the little "toy" hoists they are only about 4" in diameter and have less than one third the surface area PLUS one third the torque rating (resulting in 1/9th to 1/10th the capacity or a real hoist).

This is important because when lowering the load the friction disk is holding the load and as you pull on the chain it releases some of the pressure on the disk allowing the load to move against the ratchet mechanism. This is just like riding the brakes down a long hill. The brake assembly gets hot and like any brake loses effectiveness as it gets hot. Once the brake is so hot it starts slipping and cannot hold the load. This means the hoist starts dropping the load if you ae not holding the chain. It is VERY dangerous.

On industrial duty hoists you can use them at full capacity over and over at full capacity without overheating the brake. The aluminum hoists are a little smaller than the cast iron because the aluminum housing conducts and dissipates heat faster. The cheap little Import (HF) hoists can barely hold half their rated load and rapidly overheat. They are cheap to buy and so light they can easily be hung with a single outstretched hand. But they are blatantly dangerous. I've seen brand new ones rated 2 tons that dropped 500 pound loads. . .

I've been lucky to obtain two industrial duty 2ton hoists and have used them a lot. If I need something portable to lift a load I'll use a chain or cable come-a-long. While they are slow and a pain to use they are safer than toy hoists. . .
   - - guru - Sunday, 05/05/13 09:37:54 EDT
Camber and Split Beams :
Camber is a curve that is put into a beam to counteract a load so that it is straight when loaded. On highway bridges the beams are cambered to be the proper shape when loaded with the concrete bridge deck. The live load of vehicles produces a comparatively small amount of deflection. Some flat bed truck decks are cambered to be straight when loaded.

Otherwise beams do not have "camber" built into them.

When I've split beams to make T sections (OR just to obtain a piece of plate) I have not had trouble with the resulting pieces curving too much. But the length makes a difference. However, they WILL curve and upon cooling retain some curve. Care SHOULD be taken and I simply work from one end. I've straightened the pieces on a weld platten using a hydraulic jack. But on really large beams this might not be practical, even in a large shop. A pry bar can be used on smaller sections.
   - guru - Sunday, 05/05/13 10:42:56 EDT
Nice earlier vise : A nice earlier vise in great condition.
Notice the various early style features.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/400475874614?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

ebay 400475874614

   - Tom H - Sunday, 05/05/13 11:40:32 EDT
beams that are not straight : At VOGT the boiler shops used 80' long 24" by about 240 W flange to make the side frames for boiler modules. Came in on rail flat cars. They were never straight enough to use as received. When the modules were smaller and the side frames were only 18" W beam, and maybe 60' long we used a 1000 ton bull press circa 1913 to straighten them. As they got bigger and longer the area needed to move the beam under the press became bigger than the building, and the logistics to move became too complicated. As the resident hydraulic guy and oddball machine designer, I was asked for a way to straighten these long beams.
I built a 1000 ton portable press. Set the beam on very strong saw horses, and the press was moved along the beam with a overhead crane to where ever the press was needed. Portable is relative, we used a 50 ton crane to move the press:)
Made a turning crank to rotate the beams as well. again used a 50 ton crane.

We were building the modules, in a building that was 75' wide by a city block long. Built the long way, but the rail track went through the building center on the short axis. Modules were 72' long and weighed 275,000#. Had to pick them up, move them over the car and then translate them 90 degrees. Used 2 cranes for that. Scarey! They had me come up with a set of crawlers, hydraulic powered to mount at each corner that would run off a pony motor. Could turn the crawlers any way, and they had lift jacks so could drive down over the RR track, turn 90 and then lift to allow the car under. Had the design done and quotes in hand when they bought a plant in Oklahoma and moved the module building to that plant as the building was much better laid out. Always thought that would have been a cool thing.
   ptree - Sunday, 05/05/13 13:05:43 EDT
Early Vise : Tom, definitely nice. I've asked to use the photos.

Ptree's portable straightener sounds like the way to go for long beams. Straightening is not difficult with the right tools.

I built a "portable" straightener with a 20 ton cylinder to flatten an 8 foot ring 1/4" thick (big washer) that had been mangled in shipping. Took a day to build and a few hours to use. Less time in total than the guys who bent the part had spent trying to straighten it with the wrong tools. . .

Portability We built "portable" machine tools that weighed 6 to 10 tons. But they were designed specifically to be taken TO the work which weighed much more and was permanently installed in nuclear power plants. . .

   - guru - Sunday, 05/05/13 13:42:12 EDT
No Solar Forging : We haven't seen the sun in three days and only for a few hours a day prior to that for a week. . . Not a good time for a solar forge. . .
   - guru - Sunday, 05/05/13 14:08:48 EDT
Blower lubricant : I have a No. 40 Mohawk blower (pictures available). Whoever rebuilt it greased the gears. It appears to be designed for oil. I see wildly varying opinions on grease for this purpose. So, experts, what gives?
   Eric Jergensen - Sunday, 05/05/13 22:32:04 EDT
All that is needed to straighten beams is a string and a torch.
   Donnie - Sunday, 05/05/13 23:35:17 EDT
It takes a very large torch to heat 240 pounds/ foot 24"wide flange. Been there done that, got the fuel bill:)
   ptree - Monday, 05/06/13 06:18:00 EDT
Big Beams : I've got several lengths of 20" 75 pound I beam (S20x75). . . Serious stuff that would take enough fuel to heat to quickly pay for that 1000 ton straightener Ptree mentioned. . . And while standard beam stops at 24", wide flange continues to 36" x 300 pound and special bridge beams are larger. The only reason to use heat on any of these is if there is a kink in the flange or a serious crease type bend. But if that is the case you are probably using scrap from a serious incident.
   - guru - Monday, 05/06/13 08:37:49 EDT
Blower lubricant : Eric, The lubricant depends on how tight the bearings and types of gears. Ideally SAE80 gear oil would be used HOWEVER, it can make the blower very hard to crank in cool weather. So, lighter oils must be used. SAE30 or 10W40 work fine.

For spur gears they make a special sticky open gear grease with molybdenum disulphide (black dirty stuff especially when sticky). I've used Never Seize as grease on lathe back gears but it tends to throw off at high speed.

Gears that have been greased but not packed in grease can simply be oiled. The oil will thin the grease until it washes off. If you are worried about it then rinse out the grease with kerosene.
   - guru - Monday, 05/06/13 08:54:05 EDT
Blower lubricant : If the blower is a hand crank type, I always reccomend ATF, as Dexron has a very low pour point, a very good extreme pressure additive, and very high viscosity index. This adds up to alubricant that holds its viscosity extremely well over the entire ambient temp range in any shop you are likely to find, even unheated. And its cheap and easy to find almost anywhere in the world.
My Cannedy Otto's are filled with ATF.
   ptree - Monday, 05/06/13 09:22:53 EDT
Most Important : These old devices (hand crank blowers) have no seals. They leak oil (dump it if overfilled), thus require constant oiling. Not a lot, but some almost every time you use them. Many have a reservoir that holds oil for a while but in use the oil travels up the gear train then out the snug but unsealed shaft fits. If the gears run dry and get worn that is generally the end as the custom gears in these simple devices could cost over $1000 to replace. So oil it or lose it.
   - guru - Monday, 05/06/13 17:11:56 EDT
Crossbow : One of the students here is drawing out a car coil spring. He intends to use it to make a crossbow. (I doubt he will get it finished but that is a separate matter). How should he heat treat the spring once if he should finish it.
   philip in china - Monday, 05/06/13 20:36:02 EDT
Phillip, Most spring steel is tempered to a blue. I would oil quench.

The tricky part of making this type of spring is smooth even transitions or tapers without a variance. A slightly thin spot may kink. Lots of filing or scraping is necessary to get these smooth lines.
   - guru - Monday, 05/06/13 21:20:40 EDT
Blower lubricant : Thanks for the advice. I've got Dexron on hand, so that's probably a good way to go. Further questions...

No. 40 Mohawk pictures http://db.tt/Anus1Vbj

The top has a little oil spot. I've seen another picture of this model with a small cup there. Is that some kind of drip cup? Should I fabricate something?

How do I keep tabs on the oil level?
   - Eric Jergensen - Tuesday, 05/07/13 12:32:13 EDT
Blower oil : When it stops drooling out the shaft holes it is time for more oil.
   Rich Waugh - Tuesday, 05/07/13 14:21:11 EDT
Oil Cups :
Sometimes these are factory, sometimes user add-on. I've added oil and grease cups to a number of my machines (old lathes, hand crank drill presses. . ). In large these help keep out dirt and chips more than provide oil for a length of time.

If anyone needs them I've got a bunch of big screw cap steel grease cups (3" dia I think). Some are 1/4" pipe thread and some 3/8". I put a couple smaller ones on the middle pulley Little Giants I had. They looked very OEM.
   - guru - Wednesday, 05/08/13 08:36:53 EDT
Is my small anvil any good : I just got a five kilogram anvil at canadian tire that is made by Mastercraft. I do not have any high expectations because it was only 30 dollars. On the box it says that it is made from non hardened cast alloy. I am wondering weather non hardened cast alloy is any good for light use (making railroad spike knives etc)
   Nate - Wednesday, 05/08/13 10:04:39 EDT
Nate, These small anvils with non-specific, uninformative information are almost always cheap imported cast iron anvils. If so you overpaid by almost triple.

The word "alloy", once meant that something was an iron (or other metal) alloy with significant alloying additions, chrome, manganese, nickle. . . but the rudimentary definition of "alloy" is a metal with ANY additional metallic ingredients. This makes ANY steel or cast iron an "alloy". Even the purest mill products labeled "pure iron" have some silicon making them an alloy. Scrap iron, which almost always includes some tramp ingredients is an "alloy". So, shady importers can honestly label their products "alloy" with absolutely NO meaning at all.

Heat treatment has also become a shadily used word. Unscrupulous sellers use the fact that air cooling from the forged or cast temperature is a part of heat treatment. Using this definition ALL metals of every kind could be called "heat treated". Industrially a heat treated steel is one that can benefit from heat treatment, then is heated, quenched, tempered or other steps to produce specific results.

SO, Even if your anvil said "heat treated alloy steel" it could mean little or nothing. IF it said, "hardened and tempered to 55HRc" THEN it might mean something.

The weight of your little anvil, 5kg or 11 pounds puts it in the "bench anvil" category. These are little anvils used for craft work, bending wire, small bits of sheet metal. . . None are suitable for forging anything of significant size (bigger than a framing nail). The best are made of forged steel or fabricated from crane or RR-rail, the worst from the left over dregs of cast iron from a foundry. These are full of porosity and are generally an unidentifiable "alloy".
   - guru - Wednesday, 05/08/13 12:20:44 EDT
Cast Iron Anvils

I was sent the label and photo of one of these junk bench anvils. It states:
  • Cast iron construction heat treated to 48/50 Rockwell
  • Milled flat top and bottom surfaces for a stable firm full strike
  • Top is surface ground for a smooth accurate and polished surface
Valley Industries (UK and US).

All the statements in the list are lies. This is a soft as-cast item. It was not machined top OR bottom, the "surface grinding" was a light brush against a belt grinder that did not take off all the cast surface. IF it had been machined at all then at least the cast surface would have been removed. . .

The world is flooded with this junk. Don't buy it. If you have and been lied to, then return it.

   - guru - Wednesday, 05/08/13 13:12:14 EDT
More about specs :
Having completely blown off the specs above I did not pay close attention to the fact that they said "Rockwell" without specifying the scale (A,B,C). Without a scale saying XX hardness "Rockwell" means just as much as saying hardness "Johnson" or hardness "anvilfire".

Its all just hype to pull the wool over the eyes of the consumer.
   - guru - Wednesday, 05/08/13 19:05:30 EDT
hardness : Does anyone actually want to mess with the topic of Johnson hardness?
   - 3dogs - Wednesday, 05/08/13 23:11:30 EDT
Johnson hardness : You definitely don't use a Rockwell-type tester for that! Probably not a Brinell-type tester, either.
   Rich Waugh - Thursday, 05/09/13 12:03:31 EDT
Not a scleroscope either.
   ptree - Thursday, 05/09/13 14:21:58 EDT
I use a P-gauge.... if it's too hard, no P
   - Nippulini - Thursday, 05/09/13 15:24:50 EDT
I guess that was a bad choice of names . . . . But then you can't say anything in front of this bunch of giggling girls.

Which reminds me of a story.

Way back in high school we had a young new art teacher fresh out of teaching school for senior art. The class consisted of twelve girls and three boys. About half of us were seriously interested in art and the rest just filling an elective. The teacher thought she would start the senior year with an art appreciation class. Her slide show of classics had the usual cherubs and nudes and with every slide the girls in the class would giggle and the teacher blush. This was not all that unexpected in the 60's in a small town but the teacher blushed each time and got redder and redder making the situation worse, the girls giggling louder and louder until she could go no further.

That was the end of the lecture and the end of almost any teaching of any type from her that year. Which was sad. She was truly interested in being a teacher but had let that snake pit of giggling girls get to her.

But I evened the score over the next months. At the time I could draw a reasonable portrait in seconds and a full figure in less than two minutes. All those giggling girls found themselves the subjects of nude or transparently nude sketches if they sat still for more than a minute. The teacher never said anything about my subject matter and gave me A's for all my work. . .

Original art by Jock Dempsey

I drew dozens of these a week on 12x16 sheets of the coarsest cheapest wood pulp paper you've ever seen. Rarely did I spend more than a minute or two on each and most were not very good as I was focusing on one detail or another. Few have survived. Most of the nudes walked off . . . When I photographed the collection 20 years ago they were dark yellow and crumbling even though they had been in dark storage since school. I wish I could still draw like that.
   - guru - Thursday, 05/09/13 16:21:37 EDT
Steel Beam to support a loft : I am building a loft in my shop to increase storage capacity and I have been given an "H" beam with flanges that are 5/16" thick and 5 inches wide. I am trying to determine how much floor load this beam section can support if I have unsupported spans of 10 and 15 feet. The shop is 30 feet long and ideally I'd like to have a single support post at mid-length but I can alter the design if needed. I'd appreciate any assistance you can offer. Thanks.
   Patrick Nowak - Thursday, 05/09/13 22:09:26 EDT
Patrick, Beams are defined by approximate height and weight per foot (as well as section type, W, M, S, HP). Height, Width and flange thickness (measured to +/-.005") can usually identify a beam. So we need more information. The following are the sections found in the 1973 AISC database of Mass2. There are others close to the 5" width.

W14 x 22 Flange = 5" Thickness = .335 Web = .23

The 14" beam above is 13.72" tall and can easily support 10,000 pounds at the middle of a 15 foot span (.216" deflection, 12,828 PSI). An equally distributed load could be more.

W5 x 16 Flange = 5" Thickness =.36 Web = .24

The above beam can support only 1500 to 1800 pounds with .21 to .32" deflection in 15 feet. Reduce the span to 10 feet (two columns) and you can increase the load to 5,000 pounds.

M5 x 18.9 Flange = 5.003" Thickness = .416 Web = .316

This is similar to the one above.

S12 x 31.8 Flange = 5" Thickness = .544 Web = .35

This is a standard "I" beam with sloping flanges. It can support 12 to 15,000 pounds in 15 foot spans.

The above are based on deflections of 1/4 to 5/16" and stress no higher than 15,000 PSI. You can load higher but it gets bouncy. . .

I can help more given the necessary dimensions to identify the exact beam as well as how deep your mezzanine/loft is going to be. One way to get more out of your beam is to use it to support a timber such as a a pair of 2x8's or 2x10's to distribute the load assuring distributed load PLUS the capacity of the wood.
   - guru - Friday, 05/10/13 00:04:02 EDT
Beam for loft : Jock- The actual dimensions of my beam are as follows:
Flange thickness: 0.350
Flange width: 5.20
Web thickness: 0.223
Distance from out side of flange to outside of opposite flange: 5.01

This beam will be used to support one side of the loft. The other side will be tied into the studs in the wall so it won't be loaded in the same manner as a hoist beam (point load) but will have the load distributed by the floor. The loft is only 7 feet wide and the joists will be 2x6, 16" on center.
   Patrick Nowak - Friday, 05/10/13 06:57:10 EDT
Beam : Patrick,

The closest beams in my database is the M5x18.7 and W5x15. When I licensed the database in 1984 AISC had just come out with a new database with a few new sections, more may have been added since. Yours appears to be one of these.

M5x18.7
Distance from out side of flange to outside of opposite flange: 5.0
Flange thickness: 0.416
Flange width: 5.003
Web thickness: 0.316

Your beam will be about 20% less than an M5x18.7 stiff since most of the stiffness comes from the web and the flanges keep it from twisting as well as support the load. It is probably much closer to the W5x16 below.

W5x16
Distance from out side of flange to outside of opposite flange: 5.0
Flange thickness: 0.360
Flange width: 5.00
Web thickness: 0.24

These are designed to be columns so they support much less than an equal weight beam of greater height (such as a W8x15).

An area of 7 x 15 = 105 sqft. Loaded at 50 lbs. sqft = 5250. That would be a heavy load on a 2x6 framed floor (don't store all your anvils up there. . )

Assuming all the load on the beam and a span of 15 feet and a load of 10,000 pounds the beam would sag over 1" (too much). With a load of 5250 it would still sag over 5/8". Still a little high. The rule of thumb is 1/4" or less deflection. With half the load on the beam deflection would still be high.

With a span of 10 feet and a load of 3500 pounds per section a beam taking all the load would sag about .133" evenly loaded and .21" point loaded. So with 2 columns it would easily support a 50 lbs/sqft. load and if you loaded it more (100 lbs. sqft.) it would not be unreasonably stressed for a shop or farm building. Hay stacked 5 bails high = 50 lbs/sqft. Lumber could load the floor higher but is a self distributing load. Blacksmith stuff could easily hit 100 lbs/sqft. with space to walk between

So it looks like 2 columns is required for for a 100 lb/sqft load and you could get away with a single column if storing hay, furniture, lumber. A taller beam (or more columns) would be needed if this were a dwelling. I would probably go with one column to keep more space clear on the main floor. . unless I planned on storing all my excess tools up there. . .
   - guru - Friday, 05/10/13 09:57:22 EDT
quick and dirty deflexion : if the length of the span divided by the depth of the i-beam is under 23 deflection is not likely to be a problem
   tjstrobe - Friday, 05/10/13 20:38:53 EDT
Rules of Thumb : Some work, some do not. This one fails on the first test.

A 12" beam, 22 feet long (result = 22)

M12x11.8 @ 10,000 pounds center deflects 1.9" and is stressed 56,000 PSI.

W12x14 @ 10,000 pounds center deflects 1.5" and is stressed 45,000 PSI.

S12x31.8 @ 10,000 pounds center deflects .6" and is stressed 19,000 PSI.

W12x36 @ 10,000 pounds center deflects 0.5" and is stressed 15,000 PSI.

W12x72 @ 10,000 pounds center deflects 0.24" and is stressed 7,300 PSI.

The first two beams are overloaded, the second two are OK for floors but not a crane or point load, the last is acceptable. Rule of thumb disproved.

The first beam, a light 12" beam is OK at a ratio of 11, half the rule of under 23.

Steel is easy . . . wood is dog. . .
   - guru - Friday, 05/10/13 22:19:16 EDT
Beam Question : Jock-Thank you for your input on this. That is exactly the type of info I needed. The choice of 7 feet is dictated by the distance from the wall to the overhead door. In this particular design the floor joists of the loft will be notched to sit inside the beam flange so that we can preserve head room in the loft. The ceiling height is only 12'6" and I want a 7' ceiling height between the floor of the shop and the underside of the loft joists. If the ceiling were taller, I'd do as you suggest and extend the edge of the loft beyond the beam by a foot. This loft likely will be used for tool and equipment storage rather than light goods so I'll likely use the two post design you've suggested.

Patrick
   Patrick Nowak - Saturday, 05/11/13 21:29:44 EDT
Big Vise : An 8" vise.
Note the larger proportions, yet the constant overall height.
(and a pretty stout spring.)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Columbian-blacksmith-leg-vise-8-jaws-huge-/111064697807?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19dbf8cbcf

ebay no. 111064697807
   - Tom H - Sunday, 05/12/13 15:51:46 EDT
That's a LOT of vise but boy is that ugly compared to the English vises!
   - guru - Sunday, 05/12/13 17:14:15 EDT
Drawing : Dear Guru,

Drawing is just like tbhrowing a football, riding a bike, makin' love or hammering some yellow hot steel; you never loose it. If you were to practice a little, it'd come right back. i was an art major back in the '70s & though I don't draw like I used to, it still serves me well for smithing projects. Which brings up a great point broached in this forum earlier in the year. As part of one's smithing education, one should know at least the fundementals of drawing. I always lijked to draw bones, hands & feet for practice. It gets a litle tedious, but it will sharpen up your skill. Sort of like forging points & curls.
   - Jon G. - Monday, 05/13/13 15:28:23 EDT
I agree! I've seen your work of late and I must say I am always impressed. Points and curls? Interesting..
   - Nippulini - Monday, 05/13/13 16:09:51 EDT
Blade Material : I have an interesting question, for making blades of any kind would ASME Nitronic 50 be a usable material? I possibly have access to some and if it would be good at all i would like to grab it.

As a side note i am in the US in Iowa and am still looking for an anvil, are there any local (to the US or my area) places to buy new anvils or places people would recommend going for used ones. I have visited auctions, and as i have read on here, a lot of them are crap and not worth my time. Just seeing if there is somewhere or a source that i may have missed in my area. Thank you in advance.
   Shane - Monday, 05/13/13 16:47:59 EDT
Drawing Skills :
I agree somewhat but they can be more like the subjective athletic skills. I can still draw fairly well but I'll never be like I was in my mid teens. I had practiced my drawing like an Olympian practices their sport applying many hours every day for years (all the time I was in public school). On my own and in classes I practiced different styles of drawing, isometric, geometric, continuous line, surfaces (without line) using pencil, charcoal, pastels, pens, paint brush and in different media on different surfaces. I also studied the styles of famous artists. . I was incredibly fast compared to now and had a much sharper eye for the line of the human form.

Since then (45 years) I have drawn mostly machinery and tools, mechanical objects and structures. I still have an eye for composition and perspective. I can detect art taken from a photo (projected or NOT). Even when artists simply look at a photo for composition they use the camera perspective that gives them away.

But I'll never draw like I did when I was 18.

Imagine a fat 70 year old man trying to figure skate like he did at age 19 when he was at his peak training for the Olympics. There are certain places in life you can never get back to.

   - guru - Monday, 05/13/13 17:04:02 EDT
Nitronic 50 : Shane, This steel is high strength, not high hardness. It is rated at a working hardness of less than 100 Hrb and is usually used in the annealed state (like 300 series stainlesses). This is less than 23 HRc. Not a knife or blade hardness.

Anvils are as my article states, where you find them (anvils).
   - guru - Monday, 05/13/13 18:28:04 EDT
Forge Welding : Just today I had a student ask about forge welding. I once spent a week at a Francis Whitaker workshop and this is what I got out of it.

Much of this has already been said but I do have a few differences in my technique.

Assuming a clean fire, gas or coal, is being used....

heat slowly to insure the interior of the metal is at welding temp.

Instead of looking for sparks, which may be too hot, I wear dark lenses and look at the steel. When I can see that the flux is flowing or looks glassy and the steel is the same color as the fire, then it is time to calmly move the steel from forge to fire and bring the two steel pieces together with gentle blows. If you are prone to getting too excited use a 1# hammer. I will often reweld and then use finishing blows.

Thinking about moving the flux out from the center towards the edges is important to keep in mind as you strike.

My percentages are good and this has worked well for me. I think that concern for the cleanliness of the fire might be overstated because I have done multiple forge welds without cleaning out the clinker, which is there, and the welds still work.

I think the color cue and seeing the flux flow are the two most critical details for me. Scarf shaping seems to affect how cleanly the edges flow but the two pieces will still stick.

good luck, it will work
   Steven Bronstein - Monday, 05/13/13 20:51:10 EDT
Steven : Befor lapping, the pieces can be either shaken in midair or rapped against the anvil to knock off some of the flux/scale molten soup.
   Frank Turley - Monday, 05/13/13 22:40:42 EDT
That reminds me of watching a farrier demonstration showing different ways to shape a shoe. One was holding the shoe out in front of him in tongs and tapping it with his hammer - he called it "air hammer". :)
   - guru - Tuesday, 05/14/13 09:25:23 EDT
Handy Worker vise : Seeking parts for a Chicago Flexible Shaft Handy worker vise. I have the basic vise unit but have none of the accessories that went with the unit. I would be most grateful for contacts or leads as to where to locate some of these parts. THANK YOU!
   David H - Tuesday, 05/14/13 09:29:28 EDT
Hand cranked blower : Dear Guru & Colleagues,

I have a handle (pun) on a crank blower, here in NJ. Besides the seals & overall flexibility, what else should I look for prior to purchase?
   - Jon G. - Tuesday, 05/14/13 12:16:10 EDT
Hand cranked blower : Jon, There are no seals. . . Turn it and listen. It should spin on its own for a few seconds and not make growling noises. Growling noises are worn gears (or bearings). Gears are not replaceable without having very expensive custom ones made. Bearings can be fixed but are also non-standard. Balls can be replaced but generally not the races. So this is a partial fix.
   - guru - Tuesday, 05/14/13 13:08:35 EDT
Hand Crank Blower : Jon G, If your "handle" on a blower doesn't work out I have several of our friend Dave Boyer's to sell for his mother. Two are Champion 400s in very good shape. I'll have a couple at the BGCM meet in Maryland this weekend or you can email me. Any money from selling these or his other stuff goes to his Mom, nothing to me.

Jock, If this is an inappropriate post please delete it. I didn't have a phone number to check with you first. Steve G

   SGensh - Wednesday, 05/15/13 21:22:35 EDT
Not a problem. Anything to help.
   - guru - Wednesday, 05/15/13 23:54:01 EDT
gun barrels : i was wondering if old/new gun barrels are safe to use as scrap practice metal or maybe even knife making material
   braden rogers - Friday, 05/17/13 20:21:27 EDT
getting in : if you want this site to be useful to those who seek instruction , then allow them in, meaning me, who has tried for awhile with no result.
   danlpaul@msn.cim - Friday, 05/17/13 22:43:58 EDT
Getting in : I don't know how you could be having issues "getting in" to Anvilfire. There isn't a secret handshake or anything; you post your question(s) in the forum and get answers. No registration, no dues, no pension plan. How much easier can it get?
   Rich Waugh - Saturday, 05/18/13 00:22:00 EDT
Gun Barrels : I'd have a good answer for you if I had gotten to the local gun shop that burned down ahead of the scrap man. (I still kick myself.) I suspect that the alloys used are in the "tough not hard" range, since a hard, brittle barrel would be "a bad thing." Therefore, they are probably good for messing about, but problematic for knives and edged tools. Traditionally, you see a lot of tools and knives made out of recycled files, but the only thing I ever say out of gun barrels was a fence in Georgetown, DC, using old musket barrels.

Since I wasn't able to follow-up with the real items, I'll let others take it from here.
   Bruce Blackistone -Atli- - Saturday, 05/18/13 08:51:34 EDT
triangle bell : i'm doing my first real paying blacksmith project,a dinner bell triangle,and was wondering if you had any advice.
   braden rogers - Saturday, 05/18/13 11:32:18 EDT
Hammers : What is the alleged advantage of the cutler's style hammer? I have never used a hammer with an unbalanced design (longer pol than pein). The japanese smiths use a similar design. Have any of you used such hammers
   John Odom - Saturday, 05/18/13 11:56:13 EDT
Hammers: a crypto answer : I made one for a bladesmith in Colorado, and he likes it and uses it. I don't know why he likes it. I think that they were used in the early days of Sheffield cutlery, but it it difficult to find out the exact shape and raion d'étre. I have a really nice tapered, octagonal-sectioned hammeer that is called a dog head, and I understand it is used by saw makers and saw tensioners. I don't know the exact method. The Japanese hammers are "head heavy" when compared with the peen, but the proportions vary from one maker to another.

One thing's for wure. When you pick up one of these hammers,you know you're going to hit with the head, not the peen.
   Frank Turley - Saturday, 05/18/13 13:03:54 EDT
Hammers : Thanks, Frank. That is about all I have been able to find.
   John Odom - Saturday, 05/18/13 15:02:20 EDT
More hammers. : I should have used the term 'poll' rather than 'peen' in my last post.
   Frank Turley - Saturday, 05/18/13 17:42:38 EDT
More Hammers : Hey Frank. I think "peen" is correct term for hammers. "Poll" is on axes.
But,,,
lots of regional differences to the most simple of tool descriptions.
   - Sven - Saturday, 05/18/13 21:22:05 EDT
hammers : Centuries ago in Europe they used sledge hammers with all the mass in front. . . I've never used either.

- from on the road
   guru - Sunday, 05/19/13 07:27:08 EDT
Triangles musical : Braden, I've made many of these and proportions as well as bends make a big difference.

My favorite is made from 1/2" round 30" long and bent at three places, 5", 15" (center) and 5", the ends separated about 1/4". This three bend design is sort of like a tuning fork and rings louder and clearer than a two bend type.

I heat the corners with a torch. Large round corners made in a forge do not ring as well and are hard to control. Forged fancy ends deaden the ring as well so I make the triangle plain and simple, do the fancy stuff on the bracket or striker.

The same size stock above also makes good two bend triangles.
   guru - Sunday, 05/19/13 07:34:33 EDT
gun barrels : Bruce is correct, gun barrels are tough rather than hard. Current spec for M4/AR15 barrels is 4340, and I suspect most modern cartridge rifles use something similar. Watch out for hard chrome liners.

Muzzleloading gun barrels may be something else, especially old ones. Truly old (pre-1870) ones are usually wrought iron, modern ones can be anything. One maker uses 12L14, a leaded free-machining screw steel.

Whatever they are, make sure they're not loaded before you start messing with them!
   Alan-L - Monday, 05/20/13 10:09:55 EDT
Old Gun Barrels : Alan isn't kidding, it's amazing how many old muzzle loaders were left loaded! This includes one antique flintlock I came across that was a friend's family's souvenir from India. When the ramrod comes up "too long" caution is called for.
   Bruce Blackistone -Atli- - Tuesday, 05/21/13 08:07:20 EDT
Loaded : When I was in high school a friend tried to cock his dad's rusty old cap lock pistol. He had friends helping while he braced it against his chest. . . yep, you guessed it. When they let go the gun fired. . .

The fellow refused to implicate his friends. So he was put in the psych ward of the hospital as a possible suicide. Talk about things that will follow you around. Because a gun was involved it became public record and school record. . .
   - guru - Tuesday, 05/21/13 13:26:48 EDT
safety glasses : Do "Transition" lenses work well for forging. These lenses are designed to turn dark in sunlight, and return to clear indoors. Does a coal fire or the hot steel itself turn the lenses too dark to be practical?
   Scott - Tuesday, 05/21/13 18:31:40 EDT
ducks nest tuyere : I recently purchased a clark 1866 patent ducks nest tuyere. Can't figure out how it was mounted in a hearth. Can it be set in an all steel pan or must it be set in clay? If mounted in clay, how much sticks out above the clay? Just can't wrap my head around this one. Any help would be appreciated. Just a picture would woukd do it. Thanks.
   RBR - Tuesday, 05/21/13 21:51:14 EDT
Gun Barrels : I have to agree with Alan. A lot of shotguns in the late 70's/early eighty's were made from 12L14, possibly replaced today by the Bismuth bearing alternatives.
M16's in the late 1970's/early 1980's were made from CrMoV steel, or Chrome Moly Vanadium steel - it was not 4340. Mid carbon range, around .4. Barrel stock was sold to Colt Industries in the quenched and tempered condition - oil quench, tempered at 1300, 1310, or 1320 F depending on the combo of Cr, Mo, and V. Acceptable hardnesses were 30, 31, & 32 Rockwell C. Material was a little over 1" in diameter and was oil quenched from 1600 F.

I've also seen specifications that specify 4140 steel for barrel stock for rifles, including non-current MIL (military) specifications.
   - Gavainh - Tuesday, 05/21/13 22:15:56 EDT
Nitronic 50 - Anvils : Shane, it was developed by Armco to compete with 300 series stainlesses in corrosion applications. Manganese replaces part of the chrome reducing cost (Mn is less expensive per 0.01% in the alloy than Cr is, and both stabilize austenite) One application that I was aware of for Notronic alloys while with Armco was for beer barrels (kegs). Definitely not a knife material.

Anvils - for fair prices and a selection of used anvils I recommend Quad State in Troy, Ohio. I haven't checked this year's date, but it's usually around the weekend closest to Sept. 23rd. Google Quad State, Troy Ohio and the year. Good blacksmithing and bladesmithing demo's, and it gets folks coming from quite a distance. As noted, anvil prices are fair - they aren't of the OMG what a bargain type. But they also aren't of the OMG I've been screwed level either.
   - Gavainh - Tuesday, 05/21/13 22:24:40 EDT
More Gun Barrels : Some are also made of work hardening steels. The purpose is so that when rifled by extrusion the rifling is hard and wear resistant while the barrel is soft and tough.
   - guru - Tuesday, 05/21/13 22:59:32 EDT
ducks nest tuyere :
RBR, There are numerous types of these. Email me a photo and I may be able to help. Some were water cooled and others were simply a heavy iron ring to resist the heat of the fire. Those I've seen were designed to be embedded in a clayed or masonry forge of the smiths preferred design and were fairly primitive. They had a short popularity, full cast iron fire pots with matching tuyeres replacing them.

There are drawings of some of these in Richardson's Practical Blacksmithing.
   - guru - Tuesday, 05/21/13 23:26:56 EDT
Gun Barrels : I have an old WWll Japanese Arisaka 7.7 Sniper rifle, I was told it has a rifled chrome sleeve. It is very accurate.
   Mike T. - Wednesday, 05/22/13 04:40:55 EDT
rifle barrels : I believe current M-16/M-4 rifle barrells are 1% Cr and .5% moly.

A cromed bore in a rifle is a hard chrome plate in all that I know of. They are hard chromed to resist corrosion from the propellents and primers and to reduce wear from the velocities and high pressures in modern rifles. The Russians hard chromed the bores and parts of the actions of their military rifles starting with the SKS and followed through with the AK-47 to current. Early AR-15s and very early M-16's did not have chrome bores, and this was one of the contributing factors to the early bad functioning of the m-16. The ARMY ordinance Corp also had a bad case of NIH syndrome and issued the rifle with a different propellent, much more fouling than the acceptance testing had been performed with, and did not issue cleaning kits and sent out no cleaning required instructions. Once the cleaning kits/instructions and chrome bores went in, better.
My SKS has a chrome bore, chrome bolt and firing pin, even though it is a Vietnam era Chinese MFG
The 7.7mm Arisaka sniper rifle was chambered for their machine gun round, had higher velocity and punch then the std issue rifle, and may well have had a chrome bore, but the one I had in the early 60's did not have any obvious chrome in the bolt or bore.

artillery often are a sleeved inside a barrel contsrution. The riffled sleeve has a fairly short life and must be replaced often in some big guns. The 175mm guns used in the US had about 300 round life if I recall correctly, the 8" wowitzer was better at several thousand rounds.
   ptree - Wednesday, 05/22/13 06:35:37 EDT
Transition lenses : The lens react to cold and certain ultraviolet rays. They will not darken inside unless there it is cooler temps.
   Tony C - Wednesday, 05/22/13 07:02:06 EDT
ducks nest tuyere : Thanks for the super quick reply to my question regarding the setting of these tuyeres. You are right. RICHARDSON'S book had the answer. In volume 1 at page 49 of the RICHARDSON book "Practical Blacksmithing" there are some words on the setting of a tuyere that would apply to this type. I was trying to set it in a steel pan and it just wasn't working. Setting in clay seems to be the way these worked, the top being set "four to six inches below the level of the forge." Thanks for the guidance. RBR
   RBR - Wednesday, 05/22/13 07:49:50 EDT
chrome bores : I should have said yes, it's just a plating. It will still interfere with forging if you try to forge-weld the barrel solid.

Thanks for the clarification on the M-16/ M-4 barrel steel. I was told they were 4340 by a guy who makes muzzleloader barrels out of 4140, and since he is in the business I believed him. Coming from the steel mill end, I believe you more!

NIH syndrome? I get the idea, but what's the acronym?
   Alan-L - Wednesday, 05/22/13 11:39:22 EDT
Transition lenses in the forge :
These might work but are slow to react in both directions and I think you would find yourself with the exact opposite of what you wanted more than half the time.

Back when we could get them I found that the #2 shade glasses worked very well with both the gas and coal forge. What you want is some infrared protection, a little light filtering for comfort, but not so much that it makes it hazardous to walk around the shop. A balance is needed.
   - guru - Wednesday, 05/22/13 12:09:18 EDT
NIH Syndrome : Not Invented Here
   ptree - Wednesday, 05/22/13 13:14:13 EDT
Hearing protection : Hey guru, I've been looking into getting some hearing protection and after some research found that hammer strikes can cause noise as loud as 140 decibels. Apparently, the max level of noise to hear on a daily basis is around 85 decibels, and it seems that most ear muffs and ear plugs I can purchase only go up to 30 decibels of protection. I was wondering if the use of both ear muffs and ear plugs would be necessary for the complete protection of my hearing. Any info or corrections on things I have stated would be great.
   Daniel - Wednesday, 05/22/13 14:01:09 EDT
Hearing protection is indeed rated by NRR or noise reduction. The OSHA level to start a hearing conservation program is indeed 85 Db TWA.
The TWA is the 8 hour Time Rated Average and you need a sound level dosemeter to get that measurement. While a hammer does indeed have a high sound pressure, the time part is very short.
I would also state that several countries outside the US require taking the Lab measured NRR using a trained tester who follows the package instructions completely in half.
SO... Figure that good earplugs rated at 32 NRR inserted by the typical person who just squeezes the plugs and shoves em in will give 16 NRR The armuffs are probably about 75% for the average wearer as they are less finicky in installation. Earmuffs need to be discarded or have a hygiene kit installed not longer then 6 months after use starts as the sound deadening foam breaks down.
I have worked in industrial forge and boiler shops and have never seen a case where metal impact noise like from a hammer will exceed the protection of regular PPE. I personally wear 3M brand HearTunes when in my home shop. They are lilited to 85Db on the radio, have good NRR, and keep nasty stuuf out of my ears. They are also usefull to keep your ears warm in the winter.
Ptree who is currently a safety and enviro guy
   ptree - Wednesday, 05/22/13 14:32:40 EDT
Hearing protection : Did the above over lunch break and was in a hurry.
Sorry for typo's
Noise levels are expressed in several ways and the 85Db is on a particular scale and weighting. You can read the hugely boring technical section in the OSHA reg's but it is mostly great anti-insomnia material.
In a nut shell, at 85Db "A Scale slow response" IFIRC the OSHA requirement is a hearing conservation program for employers. Hearing protection kicks in under several circumstances. If a "Standard Threshold Shift" is found during the annual testing and confirmed, then hearing protection is required for that person. Standard Threshold shift means hearing loss across 3 ranges in one ear of so many Db. If the Db rating exceeds 90 Db hearing PPE is required if "Engineered Reductions" to sound level are not feasible. Engineering means mechanical sound deadening or other physical changes to reduce the noise level. Rotation to reduce that Time Weighted Average by rotating workers to other less noisy areas is also a method to reduce exposure.
PPE is always the last resort, because it is seldom used correctly and consistently.

Now all of the above applies to regulated industry.

At home? A half hour with a chain saw = permanent loss. Loud motorcycle pies? Same thing. All noise has a cumulative effect. Our ears were developed to hear in an environment where the loudest survivable event was a thunderstorm. Hearing loss is a sneak thief. It is usually a very slow process across many years.
Get a HearTunes with the sound level regulated to 85Db max, crank it up, and give a quick listen. Then grab those regular earbuds and put them on at the level you usually use and you may find that they are way louder then 85Db. Those Booming car stereos? way above 85DB. Average rock concert is in the 110 to 125Db range.
Jet engine at 25' in full afterburner 125 to 130Db (Been there done that, got the OD tee shirts)
Inside an early Chinook helicopter at idle 115Db. Since in most folks the pain level is about 110Db, the Chinook hurt when I was in them even at idle sans muffs.
By the way you can get about 15 to 20 real NRR by fingers in the ear technique to allow exit from a suddenly loud area.

My Grandfather started as a apprentice in about 1900, and then worked for 50 years in a foundry. Stone deaf at 50 years old. My Dad went thru WWII as a tailgunner in B-17s and then in industry and flying small planes at night and was deaf at 56. I was issued earplugs and required to wear them in Basic in 1974, and then have always been required to wear PPE in industry. And I still can hear. Not as good as a 16 year old, but much better than many my age. It is natural to lose some hearing acuity with age. But deaf at 50 or 56 is not natural.
Want to hear? Then only hear what is safe.
   ptree - Wednesday, 05/22/13 19:21:28 EDT
Hand Hammer Noise :
Where you are in relation to the anvil and the surrounding surface types/distance make a very big difference in decibles.

I was at a demo once where the demonstrator was on a low platform raising the anvil to ear level. The shop was also small and low ceilinged with hard smooth surfaces. I was directly in front of the anvil which was turned perpendicular to where I sat. Every ring of the anvil physically hurt from the position I was in. I could stand up or move to a seat to the right or left several seats and the sound level dropped to bearable. I've never experienced this much pain from noise since.

Echoing or reverberation increase the total noise. It may not increase the noise energy but it increases the amount of distracting noise. I'm sure that it also increases the worst case probability of loud noise aligning with the ear. A large tall ceilinged shop helps. Anything to break up flat surfaces also helps. You can explain that all that junk is your noise abatement system! Shelves with contents really help.

In a small shop in a residential neighborhood various sound abatement methods can help prevent complaints as well as make a more comfortable shop. Ceiling tiles reduce echo. Ceiling tiles or carpet can be used behind shelves on walls. Rubber floor mats are good for the feet if you have a concrete floor but are not good with hot steel. Privacy fences reduce noise transmission, adding shrubs or a vine covering helps.
   - guru - Wednesday, 05/22/13 21:33:14 EDT
So all in all : A good pair of earplugs properly inserted would be sufficient for hearing protection against pretty much all sounds emitted from hammer on sheet steal? Either way, thanks a lot for the information, now I need to start inquiring about where to buy a decent anvil. It's quite hard to find any good ones in Canada and at the moment I don't have the space or money to purchase a new 50 lb one at 7$/lb and as such I just looking for a good future source to buy from once I build myself a proper workbench.
   Daniel - Wednesday, 05/22/13 21:35:08 EDT
Noise :
Daniel, You said nothing about sheet or plate in your original inquiry. These are the loudest of the hammer noises due to the large vibrating surface area. This is often called "boiler work" and is the WORST. You probably want ear plugs AND muffs. We assumed you were talking about forge work on an anvil.

You will also find yourself rapidly moving to an air hammer for this type of work unless it is very light repousse'. This greatly increases the blows per unit time and the possible hearing damage in a shorter period.

Note that working relatively thin plate such as for armor can be done on wood forms and in depressions in wood stumps. This greatly reduces the overall noise level compared to working over metal forms or in free air. Softer metals such as copper and brass make less noise than steel. These soft metals can also be worked over dense carpet on a wooden bench making very little noise.
   - guru - Thursday, 05/23/13 03:52:53 EDT
Sorry about that : But thanks again for the information, I'll be sure to purchase the right equipment before I get my anvil.
   Daniel - Thursday, 05/23/13 12:06:50 EDT
Danls noise : Now, if you really wanna be about as deaf as I am, get yourself one of those pneumatic planishing hammers. They're relatively inexpensive, they'll do a great job shaping sheet metal for ya, and you won't be able to hear the missuz kvetching about all the racket.
   - 3dogs - Thursday, 05/23/13 17:58:53 EDT
Anvil Price : As Jock often says: "Anvils are where you find them".

So, I'm at work today, with my cellphone set to silent ….. heard it buzzing away. "Who is calling me ….. "Oh crap, it's the wife”
Wife:"Did you get the message I sent you?"
Me: "No, I'm charging my phone, didn't hear it buzz."
Wife: "Well, look at it, and call me right back! I found you an anvil at a garage sale!"
I hang up, check out the picture, and call her right back.
Me: "BUY IT. GO NOW. DO YOU NEED CASH? HAVE THE GUY HOLD IT UNTIL YOU GET BACK"

Here's the best part.............. $20

Mousehole 108lbs decent shape.

http://www.papawswrench.com/vboard/index.php?topic=8282.0;topicseen
   - Tom H - Thursday, 05/23/13 20:46:44 EDT
Anvil Deals : Amazingly those deals are still out there when the rule of thumb for such an anvil was $50 in the 1950's. . . The last Mousehole I purchased was at QuadState for only $125 (<$1/lb). It had a few edge chips but was in otherwise good condition. I actually offered more because it was too cheap. . . but the guy said he was selling it for a friend and that was the set price. . .

On the other claw (as Atli says) a friend called about an un-named Colonial for $500 and a beat to snot Star (3/4 plate missing) for $200. One not too good a deal and the other (the Star) I wouldn't give $10 for. . . and I've paid over $50 for anvils with the horns broken off.

We still get folks that say they can't find anvils. But I would be willing to bet if you use the techniques in our "How to Find an Anvil" article you could find an anvil in Antarctica (YES, they ARE there - somewhere!)
   - guru - Thursday, 05/23/13 22:34:45 EDT
Anvils : Best deal I've found for a used forged anvil was $115 for a 125lb one at the flea market in Rogers Ohio a few years back - $115 for a 125 lb one. It was a cold day, not a lot of people, the seller wasn't one of the usual tool sellers, and I had taken spare cash with me. I wasn't looking for one, but couldn't pass it up.
   - Gavainh - Friday, 05/24/13 00:08:25 EDT
The best deals I've had were anvils that were given to me. FREE. Both were Peter Wrights that weighed 175 pounds (80kg) or so. One was from a complete stranger and the other from my step Grandfather.

I had a guy show up in my driveway about 1978 and offer me an anvil. I gave him all I had ($50) for a nice 128 pound (58 kg) Mousehole. A few years later I sold my 100 pound (45 kg) Kohlswa to another fellow that showed up in my driveway. . .

My first three blacksmithing hammers were free. I dug them up next to a carriage house where they had disappeared under deep leaf cover. They were probably from a farriers kit that got spilled next to the carriage house. They were a 2.5# (1135g) cross pien, a 10 oz. (280 g) ball pien and a cut little laminated steel hammer of about 5 oz. (140 g). All had parts of handles (rot) but were not severely rusted. I handled them and still use all three today.

But the hammers did not come in the same decade as the free anvils!

I was also given my 6" Prentiss chipping vise. It had been abused and locked up. It only took me a few minutes to free it up, clean it and paint it. . .

My first forge was built with junk on hand except for less than $15 worth of pipe and fittings. I operated it using leftover coal from our bin after the furnace was replaced). The first thing I forged was RR-spikes that had been found in the old carriage house. So between free anvils, almost free forge, coal and steel I could have started out for free.

If I had known what I know today about FINDING back when I was a teenager I probably would have had a complete blacksmith shop with benders, power hammer(s) and other equipment for nearly free.
   - guru - Friday, 05/24/13 11:07:18 EDT
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