WELCOME to the anvilfire Guru's Den - V. 3.0

THIS is a forum for questions and answers about blacksmithing and general metalworking. Ask the Guru any reasonable question and he or one of his helpers will answer your question, find someone that can, OR research the question for you. This is an archive of posts from may 17 - 22, 2006 on the Guru's Den

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Dear Guru, Hello, I am a potter annd have read and heard a bit about this stuff called ITC. I will probably get some soon for rebuilding some of my kilns since they are all old and decrepid. However, I am writing to you due to a friend of mine that races cars. They are always trying to innovate and come up with things to give them more power or speed. He was telling me about gettin his exhaust manififold ceramic coated to insulate it and contain the heat. I instantly thought od ITC but having not ever working with it or even seeing it wondered if it is too fragile for that or could it possibly work. Would we coat it then bake it in the kiln? Would it last or would it vibrate off after one use? Getting the manifold ceramic coated is quite expensive. If this worked he could save a lot of money and put it to use on other things. This is just a hobby for him. Maybe it is a breakthrough though. What do you think? Thanks. Craig the Clayman

clayman - Tuesday, 05/23/06 02:13:01 EDT

VICopper; Codswallop: You mean like his FAQ at: http://www.livesteelarmor.com/fag.html ? The frustrating thing is that the man is not without talent, but once he has a notion in his head, it seems to be set in concrete and he'll defend it with far more tenacity than it deserves. I guess you just can't "prove" him "wrong." He'll also jump into your forum and start a flame war in unyielding defense of his worldview of arms and armor, using up mucho bandwidth, so maybe we should drop it before he notices. No use poking your finger at a possum, you'll only get bit. Another clear, cool day on the banks of the Potomac. Visit your National Parks: www.nps.gov Go viking: www.longshipco.org

Bruce Blackistone (Atli) - Tuesday, 05/23/06 08:18:41 EDT

About spring straightening cold, etc., it reminded me of some old shop sayings I have run across over the years. "Don't hit hardened steel with hardened steel." * "Make sure your cutting tool is harder than what you're cutting." "Cold blacksmiths wet their beds at night." "Don't talk to a person who's taking a welding heat." "Don't forge weld with a horse on the floor." *...and this means tempered steel to tempered steel, also.

Frank Turley - Tuesday, 05/23/06 08:25:06 EDT

I'm looking for some advice on knife forging: Every time I forge the edge bevel of a knife, the blade curves backwards. Is there a way to prevent this short of peening down the spine of the blade and drawing it out to offset the surface area increase of the bevel? I don't want to do that because it will decrease the thickness of the blade.. Thanks

- Kazrian - Tuesday, 05/23/06 09:59:51 EDT

Karrian, On single edged blades the first step is to bend the blade opposite of the direction it curves when you thin the edge. This is normal forging procedure for all single edged blades. On a double edged or diamond section blade the forging of both sides equalizes the distortion. Bladesmiths also prefer hammers with a square face for working edges as it works the edge in the taper direction more than in the long direction. Using the lengthening from tapering one side Uri Hofi forges complete circles from flat bar (as small as 4").

- guru - Tuesday, 05/23/06 10:36:11 EDT

ITC on Auto Parts: Generally this is not a good application of ITC products. They are designed primarily to go over refractories and the one product designed for metal is a high temperature protectant. This is "high temperature" as in refractory temperatures. The ceramic coatings put on auto parts are the same as the ceramic "enameling" on stoves, washing machines and other appliances. It is a relatively low temperature material compared to the ITC line. It MIGHT be benificial to coat the interior of an auto exhust with ITC-213 but the surface must be very clean to start for it to stick.

- guru - Tuesday, 05/23/06 10:48:55 EDT

Welding on a NUT: I have found this to be the best method of extracting many fasteners. This works especially well on things where the bolt head has been rounded. Using a much larger nut gives a stronger grip for the wrench and the fastener is either going to break or come out. Removing broken fasteners: Most people get in a hurry and make a mess of things. You need to try to create a flat surface to start, then find the center and mark it. Use a drill near the tap drill size so that all that is left is a thin shell or just the threads of the part. Then it usualy can be colapased and fished out. Run a tap through the hole to clean up. broken taps and extractors: I have had my share of these and every case is different. Taps are usualy brittle enough and with the flutes can be broken into pieces. Or once a piece near the top is broken off it releases the stress and the rest can be fished out. Broken screw extractors are a huge pain and I have found that if you use the method above to drill out 99% of the fastener you do not need an extractor OR you can use one by hand. As mentioned above cyclic impart such as from a small air hammer or engraver is the first thing I try. Thousands of impacts will loosen things that no amount of force otherwise applied will move. When heat is applied it should be done logically. High Speed Steel taps and extractors do not anneal unter normal applications of heat. You are also expanding the part IN the hole. Heat the metal around the hole if possible. Bringing cast iron up to a low read heat weakens it as well as expanding it so that parts stuck in it will usualy come loose. If the fastener is stuck due to rust the heat will also reduce the rust to a non-water bearing oxide that is a smaller molecule, thus loosening the fastener. This is not recommended for all applications as applying heat in the middle of a casting can cause stresses that will produce cracks elsewhere. . . I have never failed to remove a broken tap but it has never been easy. AND, the hole often has pieces of hard steel splinters embedded in them than do not allow retaping or further taping. . . I think I have repaired more of these that were started by others than of my own screw ups. Its not that I am that good but I have patience and persistance. It is often required to drill a much larger hole removing all the bad material, taping the hole for a repair plug and then drilling and taping the repair. It is not unusual to see this on brand new one of a kind machine parts, not just old items that have been repaired.

- guru - Tuesday, 05/23/06 11:13:10 EDT

Sledge Hammers as Anvils: Most of these are burried over half way into a stump and then in the Earth and little shows. However, those I have seen appeared to range from 15 to 20 pounds. This is also the norm for heavy sledges. Sledges HAVE been made up to 40 pounds but are very rare. 24 pounds in normally the maximum and still quite rate. This is not a great anvil but if you have absolutely NOTHING (cloths, house, shoes) then it is a big deal. The size and weight is roughly the same as many ancient and pre-historic anvils and the metal MUCH better. Still, in our modern society there are much better options. The loss in efficiency using such a small anvil is huge. Applying that energy into finding a better substitute OR earning the money to purchase a REAL anvil is better use of one's time. If you are reading this (on the Internet) then you have LOTS of other options. The only time that ancient primitive, INEFICIENT methods should be pursued is: 1) Historical studies or renactment (to prove it could be done or demonstrate the method). 2) Self satisfaction and proving you are THAT stuborn. Our modern society in North America and most of Europe, even in samll rural places, throws away more iron, steel, tools and machinery than is dreamed of by people in poor countries. To say that you cannot "find and anvil" or tools or materials usualy means you have not looked very hard or that you expect them to fall from the sky for free. I had a fellow write that my Sword Making article was WRONG because it was important to have the skills to be able to start over "from the begining". A asked "what begining"? In a possible future "post apocalyptic" world we would have more scrap than EVER. Steel would be available by the millions of tons (per person) without smelting it. The problem would not be steel or weapons but growing FOOD. Knowing how to plant and to presrve food and collect seeds for the next season. Beacause without these things you are not going to live for that next season. . . Those that would waste their time making weapons instead of farm tools would soon starve. Yes they could steal from those that DID produce food but that cycle is VERY short and soon everyone starves. Yes, you can forge iron on a rock using a stone hammer while burning dung in your forge. But WHY?. Yes, it is great to know how we started, "in the begining". But we are never going back. Knowledge and history are good to know but we must also keep in perspective where we are today.

- guru - Tuesday, 05/23/06 11:53:10 EDT

Thanks Max will do that

- Tyler - Tuesday, 05/23/06 12:40:15 EDT

I have a 1980 Pinto Wagon that I am restoring (this is not a joke)... anyway, I've modified the engine and exhaust a while ago. It has a Hooker header on it and is straight piped with a turbo type muffler. The downpipes on the header almost glow after a good run, I worry sometimes about nearby wires melting, but they are heat rated anyway. How about Kaowool? I think any interior coating of ceramics would eventually break up and clog the pipes.

- Nippulini - Tuesday, 05/23/06 13:07:39 EDT

Another method commonly used by blade smiths is to heat the blade and set it on the anvil with the blade edge up and tap it down straight. it's very counter intuitive that this will work without messing up the blade but it does. Post apocalyptic: when folks have complemented me on my early skills knowlege for post A use I mention that in Columbus OH where I used to live were probably more good steel shovels than in all of England in the year 1000---why would I want to forge one when I could just walk over to a garage and get a "good" one off the wall? Now do I know how much hay it takes to overwinter a cow under local conditions? How do you make cheese that will not spoil quickly? I think that one of the Connections series had an episode that discussed these matters. Thomas

Thomas P - Tuesday, 05/23/06 14:48:22 EDT

Back on the removing of broken taps and EZ-outs: There are a coupleof other methods that I have used at various times in the past with some success. One is to drip a couple of drops of muriatic acid in the hole, and allow it to do its work. It will work differently on thetwo differeng metals, sometimes loosiening the offending bit sufficiently to remove it. It does leave you with the attendant clean-up, so I don't use it lightly. Doesn't work overhead too well, either. (grin) For broke studs and bolts, of normal steels, (not hardened taps or extractors), I have a set of LEFT-hand thread drill bits. Use the ne that is almost the tap drill size, and most times the broken bolt or stud will back right out with the bit. This process does require that you have a decent quality keyed chuck on your reversible drill, or it will promptly loosen and drop the bit. Your denter punch mark should be as dead center as possible, too. I have about 90% success with these drills on bolts and studs. Most supply houses like MSC, Grainger and McMaster-Carr sell them. Pricey, but worth it when you need them. HF also sells them; save your money.

vicopper - Tuesday, 05/23/06 14:53:05 EDT

TGN, Okay, I knew you were a half a bubble off of plumb with the stage bit, but restoring a Pinto???? (grin) Sounds like you're running more CFM through that engine than Detroit ever intended, if you're getting the headers incandescent, (even Hooker tubing headers). Sure you're not running to rich or too lean? Engines are like gas forges; any error in the mixture will result in dragon's breath.

vicopper - Tuesday, 05/23/06 14:57:51 EDT

Heat Shields: Nip, The way the factories do this is the best, a simple sheet metal shield between the hot part and those that need to be kept cool. The infrared heat of radiation is converted to heat of convection by the heat shield which transfers it to the surrounding air on two sides. The readiation from the heat shield is MUCH less. A double heat shield with air free to circulate will usually be no hotter than the ambient air on the far side of the second shield. When I built my protable blacksmith shop it had a big steel forge surrounded by plywood panels and the bellows. To prevent the plywood and the bellows from catching fire I used a two air gap heat shield with about 2" in each gap. The top was open surrounding the stack. The outside of the heat shield had plywood attached directly to it. Everything stayed nice and cool. . . On my big gas forge the floor sits on bar grating so the back side of the bricks can breathe and cool. To prevent the electronic controls that are mounted to the side of the forge from getting overheated there is a sheet metal shield 1" from the side of the forge and the elcetrical enclosure is 1" from that. The top and bottom are open to allow air circulation. Everything stays nice and cool. On old cars where the intake and carburettor was on the same side as the exhust they used a heat shieled with a layer of asbestoes on the hot face. Kaowool is the modern replacement but does not have the properties of pressed asbestoes and will not stay put in this kind of location. They make a Kaowool "paper" but I have no experiance with it.

- guru - Tuesday, 05/23/06 15:03:15 EDT

Pintos: I had a 1973 Ford Pinto wagon with the German 2 liter engine and transmission. It was the BEST power plant I had experiance with to that time. When we scraped it (after a flood) it had about 250,000 miles on it and had the original clutch and the transmission was perfect. It had been driven hard by both my wife and I. The engine had 3 timing belt replacements which were normal and were never a break down. The only regular maintenance item was points (often), plugs, brakes and tightening up the carburettor which was a common vibration failure item. The Pinto engines that came after that had regular cam lubrication and wear problems failing regularly. The English versions with the 1600 cc engine were junk from the word go and people lost money on them with only a 12k warantee. However, the made decent race car engines (with lots of mods) in Formula Fords. The 2 liter Formula Fords were the fastest cars ever on many road race tracks setting records that held up for a long time. The original pinto fastback was an ugly little car but if you looked closely at the lines it was a rip off of one of the Ferraris. The difference was the Ferrari was a convertable and the Pinto had that ugly fastback to make it a four seater. The Ferrari also had about a 2" lead on the top of the hood/grill like a Mustang. Just a few inches here and there. . . I once saw a Pinto Ranchero. It had both the Pinto and Ford Ranchero logos. I called a local dealer and asked for one. He said "No such thing!" Then i saw another and another. . . A local body shop was making them from Pinto wagons. Cut the roof, move the hatch and glass up to the front of the bed and use another hatch to make the tailgate. . . They guy did a GREAT job and bought Ranchero chrome from Ford to put on them . . . fooled me! Beat the heck out of the Japanese mini-trucks of the time and at least had US body components. Which goes to show Detroit could have easily made a small truck and didn't have to be the biggest importers of forign trucks. . .

- guru - Tuesday, 05/23/06 15:16:19 EDT

"Vacationing" in the 11th century gives you a fine appreciation of the 21st! :-) Not all historical (and modern) learning experiences are pleasant; nor are all of them equally valuable. Some folks built a copy of the famous schooner yacht "America" (for which the “America’s Cup” is named). They added a foot or two of freeboard (vertical height above the waterline) to her hull, and filled it with engines, freezers and all sorts of 20th century amenities. THEN they complained about her lack of speed. Well, the original was a fast vessel back in the 1850s; but when you match her against 100 years of technological change and evolution in sailing, plus you heap lots of modern baggage aboard, and it’s no wonder she was “disappointing” when it came to sailing performance.

Bruce Blackistone (Atli) - Tuesday, 05/23/06 15:47:59 EDT

BROKEN EXTRACTOR Often the extractor broke because it was off center and acted as a pin lock. If so, it will NOT unscrew no matter what. Assume also that it is broken off flush with no protuding stub to weld onto anyway. Use carbide burrs and little air grinder to get a hole in center of the original hole. Oil pan bolts not too big so.....keep going with burr till most of the old bolt and/or extractor are gone. This is probably pretty well messed up by now so the key is to get the new hole BACK ON CENTER. If it gets close you might be able to work back with little masonry drills to tap drill size with drills, but likely the harder broken extractor will keep pushing a drill bit off center. Probably just work most of it out with carbide burr and then pick out the pieces. If not successful, a trip to a machine shop may be in order and a thread repair of some sort. (Try and avoid HELICOIL brand repairs. Instead use competitor versions that use standard thread on outside. The inserts are usually a little stouter.) When trying to get a broken bolt out, BE CAREFUL not to mess up the outside of it or it will just get locked in place. If you have to use an extractor, MAKE SURE THE DRILLED HOLE IS ON CENTER. Quote most dreaded when getting to work in the morning: "Broke a bolt last night. Tried to get it out myself." Some of you guys know what you are in for when you hear that.

- Tom H - Tuesday, 05/23/06 16:14:07 EDT

Thomas, The year I lived outside Philadelphia, I needed to buy a snow shovel after a big storm. Found out that when *everyone* wants one, there aren't so many around after all.

Mike B - Tuesday, 05/23/06 18:01:58 EDT

What kind of anvils do the japanese swordsmiths use? how do i get one, also, what kind of anvil owuld a viking smith have used? and where can i get one , lol, thanks

Cameron - Tuesday, 05/23/06 18:06:14 EDT

Cameron, Japanese swordmaker's anvil are a large rectangular chunk of steel, they look a whole lot like european sawmaker's anvils. To get one you could go to Quad-State, I usually see around 3 of them each year for sale. Or you could buy a chunk of steel from a steel distributor and have it heat treated, or you could find a junked die from a large press and use that. Viking anvils tended toward small with a very small protrusion as horn. To get one of those you pretty well have to make it yourself. Darrell has a nice write up on their search for a replica viking anvil for the L'anse Meadows site---you might want to search it out and read it. Thomas---off camping with my forge till Monday!

Thomas P - Tuesday, 05/23/06 19:03:27 EDT

Japanese swordsmiths anvil: These are a rectangular block set into the ground with a couple inches exposed. Portable Viking anvils were of a stake type with single horn and no heel. This was a typical anvil shape for millinea. Size varied from 10 pounds of so to possibly 100 but iron was VERY valuable at this time. Oswulf and Cedric with Viking Forge - anvil detail

- guru - Tuesday, 05/23/06 19:09:43 EDT

I have a huge and heavy anvil that has been in my possession for 20 years. I am trying to identify it... I found "UTICA" stamped in small letters on one foot. In larger numbers across the back of the base on the left is "K 355" which I think is the weight (It is a heavey monster) and on the right is stamped "A 9 5605" (the nine actually looks more like a Greek letter than an inverted six) Can you help Identify it. I am a minister who enoys old things... I live in the Bay Area on the West Coast Jim

Jim Kraft - Tuesday, 05/23/06 20:06:34 EDT

Ellen, Don't do it! I think Burn't Forge over reacted. You add an important Facet to this group. I did not interpert your remarks as derrogatory, I don't understand why he did.

- John Odom - Tuesday, 05/23/06 21:38:33 EDT

Jim Kraft: You may well have an 'oddball or orphan'. Nothing you indicated is representative of a known anvil brand - at least to me. If the 355 and A 9 5605 were on the front foot I'd suspect a Trenton or Hay-Budden. If you have the capability to do so, take good photographs of all sides (and bottom), and particularly of the markings, and send them to Richard Postman (author of Anvils in America) at 320 Fisher Court, Berring Springs, MI 49103. He is the acknowledged anvil expert.

Ken Scharabok - Tuesday, 05/23/06 21:43:02 EDT

I am searching for old Grobet and Dixon catalogs. Catalogs around the 1970's would be the best for my needs. Jewelry making, casting, and maybe even dental catalogs would be a perfect hit. Thanks.

- P Wood - Tuesday, 05/23/06 21:58:36 EDT

I am looking for Grobet and Dixon catalogs from the 1970's. Jewelry making tools, casting, and even dental casting catalogs would be great. Thanks

- P Wood - Tuesday, 05/23/06 22:00:19 EDT

A fella here was looking for a Kohlswa anvil I just can't recollect who it was. I remember he has a worn 100 Vulcan anvil. There is a nice 102 lb Kohlswa anvil listed on ebay #6282939495.

- Burnt Forge - Tuesday, 05/23/06 23:35:28 EDT

Ellen I am sorry and I know you have contributed so much to this forum. I would personally like to see you remain here. If I took what you said the wrong way I am Sorry.

- Burnt Forge - Tuesday, 05/23/06 23:49:05 EDT

Guru, funny you should mention the Pinto/Ranchero, I threw that idea around in my head a few years back. The downside is that the Pinto is a unibody typr car, no frame. So when you make the first cut in the roof, the whole body will sag and eventually break (or so I've been told). Prior to any body work, I am supposed to weld secions of C channel around the undercarriage to stiffen up the body. I may just opt for turning it into a mini hearse. I even have the side panels with the moon windows! Check it out: http://www.greatnippulini.com/pinto.html let me know what you think.

- Nippulini - Wednesday, 05/24/06 08:10:25 EDT

By the way, Ellen, please don't leave us!

- Nippulini - Wednesday, 05/24/06 08:18:06 EDT

Ellen: Your call, but I do hope that doesn't mean you will also leave the forum as I enjoy your participation. On the SOF&A air hammer. It is now obvious it is underweight. 710 pounds scaled. Someone at the Anvilfire Hammer-in mentioned filling the rear column with spent steel shot. Does anyone have access to a supply who would be willing to sell me enough to fill shaft with delivery via priority mail flat rate boxes? Column is 6" x 6" x 6' so roughly 2600 cu in. A PMFR box will hold about 500 cu in, so would involve some six boxes. A user report on the SOF&A hammer. Two axioms: 1. Like farm machinery, expect to spend more time on maintenance than usage. 2. If it can come loose, it will come loose. See item #1. Am using blue lock tight. Noisy bugger. Purchased ear protection. Quieted down hammer (at least to me - neighbors may think otherwise). When I used the crosspeen with the ear muffs it was about like hitting soft plastic though. Hammer is walking on me. Will try making an angle iron frame to hold bottom plate (which now has 1/2" pad under it). Figure angle iron will be easier to bolt to concrete floor than through the bottom plate. Changed the 2" x 2" x 5" 4140 oil quenched flat dies for 1 3/4" x 2" x 4" BigBlu combo dies (same metal and hardening). Nice dies, but just seem a tad too narrow on length, particularly on the drawing portion. Another inch on length would be great. The 110v compressor simply wasn't enough to make the hammer even marginally efficient. Parted it out and purchased a Harbor Freight 70 gallon 220v compressor. 12.8 cfm at 90 psi. 110v 3.5 hp one put out maybe 3.5 cfm at 90 psi. BIG (OK HUGE) difference. Compressor was some $400 - about the price of better 110v models. Made the mistake of putting an oiler on it. Oil shoots out of the foot valve. Drain remaining oil. I can put in a pop-in connector before the trap/oiler so I can have the option to run the hammer and/or air tools in the future. I will admit I have been test driving hammer at about 100 miles an hour drawing out and shaping 2" wide tapered tool steel. Hammer is a prototype design. Lessons learned on these will be worked into their next workshop.

Ken Scharabok - Wednesday, 05/24/06 09:15:41 EDT

Dixon Catalogs: P. Wood. I found several good copies on the bookfinder.com site. The two I bought was a 1926 hard copy and a later optical catalog that was soft bound. The old hard bound catalog had practically every tool Dixon ever carried.

- guru - Wednesday, 05/24/06 09:15:53 EDT

Hammer Problems: Ken, the hammer walking can be a combination of things. Anvil mass being one. Note that adding weight to the hollow frame helps but is not the cure. Filling that hollow body with sand will kill a lot of the noise and add some mass without searching for hard to find and transport materials. You can add mass to the anvil by welding heavy bar to the outside. Try to distribute it around the anvil equally. The return stroke cushioning of the hammer can be a serious problem. The air valving MUST stop the up stroke. The internal cylinder cushion is for emergency over travel only, not repeat use with a heavy mass. Most of these cylinders are not designed for the kind of inertia loads that a hammer puts on them. Folks like BigBLU and Phoenix hammers use special cylinders made specificaly for them. If the hammer is continously hitting the top stop (rubber pad or spring) then it is not properly setup. Striking to top stop will make the hammer walk and eventually something will break.

- guru - Wednesday, 05/24/06 09:45:50 EDT

Viking Anvil: Added a detail image to the post above. The photos of the "Vikings" are from our News Edition 10 page 11.

- guru - Wednesday, 05/24/06 10:36:34 EDT

Frank: >"Don't hit hardened steel with hardened steel." * >"Make sure your cutting tool is harder than what you're cutting." >"Cold blacksmiths wet their beds at night." >"Don't talk to a person who's taking a welding heat." >"Don't forge weld with a horse on the floor." May I add these to Uncle Atli's Very Thin Book of Wisdom, attributed to you? Viking Anvils: Some more good information: Lessons form the Viking Age by Darrell Markewitz- http://www.warehamforge.ca/neleson1.html ...and my brief review of Viking Blacksmithing (Check the drawing in Part IV for anvils)at: http://members.ttlc.net/~tyrell/Viking1.htm Cool and bright on the banks of the Potomac. We actually had a spring this year, instead of jumping right into summer as usual. Visit your National Parks: www.nps.gov Go viking: www.longshipco.org

Bruce Blackistone (Atli) - Wednesday, 05/24/06 11:15:59 EDT

I have been wanting to get started with blacksmithing as a hobby. I am fifteen and don't have enough money to by a two hundred doller anvil. so my question is, How do I get a fire hot enough to melt the mettle and what do I use to hold it when it melts? I understand that I know very little about this subject but I cant start by beeting on sement and other surfaces I have tryed and without a large hunk of mettle to beat on (which is all I want) and practice on a book will do me little good. I have tried beeting on all sorts of things but if I can just make one it doesn't have to be anything but a flat surface for now. If you will help it will be appreciated thanks.

- Thomas - Wednesday, 05/24/06 12:14:35 EDT

I just read you guid lines, so as I told you I am 15. I live in south texas and have no expierience. I became interested in blacksmithing through history class (I am homeschooled) and have been just building firse and beating on steel rods since, recently I have decided to try and actualy learn but I have little money to spend (I have on job and no alowence)

- Thomas - Wednesday, 05/24/06 12:35:46 EDT

Thomas, if you mean melt the steel, then I wouldn't worry much about melting it.First read the "Getting Started in Blacksmithing" article on anvilfire. Next, you need to make a forge. Lots of things do well for a forge. I am working on one from an old car wheel. Look online for plans for a break drum forge, or find something else you can use and make it without any plans. I know a person who made a forge with no welding, so it is possible without a welder if you don't have one. As for your question, you get the fire hot enough byt attaching a blower to the bottom (or side) of the forge. You hold the metal with tongs, which will probably be your first project. There are many plans for tongs online if you care to look. My first pair was made from re-bar. Your anvil can be of many things. RR rail, large chunks of steel, an old torque converter was used once, etc. All you have to do is look around junk yards for something that is of appropriate size. As for metal to beat on, again look at junk yards for leaf springs, find some RR spikes, old metal files do well also. I hope this helps somewhat, and good luck on your new hobby! ---Rob

- Rob - Wednesday, 05/24/06 12:47:43 EDT

Homeschooled, are you? I was homeschooled from 4th grade on. Loved it for the fact that it gave me so much spare time. You should have a bit of an advantage over other kids your age, then?

- Rob - Wednesday, 05/24/06 12:51:16 EDT

I also have to say: Ellen, please don't leave us!

- Rob - Wednesday, 05/24/06 13:00:22 EDT

Thomas, The basics: 1) The fire's temperature is increased by blowing air on it. This requires a bellows, or fan. There are many types that will work. 2) The fuel must be relatively high energy (carbon or hydro carbon). Charcoal and coal are recommended. Charcoal should be the "real" stuff, cooked down wood. You can scrounge charcoal from old wood fires or purchase it from many suppliers. 3) You need a flat work surface, preferably steel. Concrete is dangerous as it spalls (parts explode off) from heat. Granite was the stone used for anvils. A scrap from a monument maker or stone cutter (Tombstones) will do for primitive smithing. However, stone anvils pretty much stopped being used after the Bronze Age. 4) Tongs are used to hold hot work. Channel lock pliers and Vise grips can substitute. However, they should never be left clamped to the work. They also do not grip the work as safely as real tongs. The thing to do is to convince your parents that blacksmithing is a good learning experiance and to help fund your endeavors. We have many engineers, metallurgists and others that do blacksmithing as an educational hobby. Blacksmithing is where the industrial revolution started and it is still an important industry. If you study the technology and study the suggestions for setting up on the cheap you can do a lot for very little. However there are some very important things you need. 1) Safety glasses. ($4 to $18) 2) A good safe pair of tongs or two. (~ $24 ea). The rest can be scrounged, built or may be found in your home shop. Suitable pieces of iron for an anvil or even a REAL anvil can be found for less than $50. Have you told ALL your relatives you are interested in blacksmithing? Do you even KNOW all your distant Aunts, Uncles and such? One of them just MIGHT have an anvil hiding in a barn, garage or basement. Look up local machine shops. One may have a hunk of steel suitable to be an anvil. They may also be willing to help a young man afford that piece of iron. Most machine shops have lots of crappy jobs that need to be done. Sorting hardware by size, cleaning old machines. . . you never know. STUDYING a book WILL do you a lot of good. Although "The Art of Blacksmithing" is no longer the best book on the subject it is good and it currently is cheap (about $15). There are also some books on-line at England's Countryside Agency. See our book review page. Good luck.

- guru - Wednesday, 05/24/06 13:09:59 EDT

Viking Anvils: As Darrell Markewitz pointed out there is little to go by, shapes were simple and iron was dear. The interesting thing about the replica anvil is that it is very similar to a 19th century tinner's anvil (comparison below), which is also very close to the shape of the hornless stake anvil shown in Atli's article. Reproduction Viking Anvil and late 19th Century Tinner/s anvil Cameron also asked about Japanese swordsmiths anvils. These as well are an ancient design going back to the beginning of the iron age. Due to the Eastern style of working on the ground anvils did not evolve features like Westen anvils. A lump of steel set in the ground has only one working feature, the flat face. However, swage blocks date back to the Bronze Age. The trouble with all these items is that the metal was valuable and easily recycled. Archaic tools were turned into something else as soon as their usefullness was less than scrap value. So there are very few examples and often few illustrations as well. But we do the best we can. . .

- guru - Wednesday, 05/24/06 13:12:06 EDT

Uncle Atli, They are in the public domain. Use the sayings, if you like them. 'Cold blacksmiths wetting'...came originally from Tom Bredlow, Tucson.

Frank Turley - Wednesday, 05/24/06 14:23:18 EDT

Thomas - addition to Guru's advice, invest in a good hearing protection (ear muff or ear plug type) the higher the dB (deciBell) attenuation the better. Plugs are more comfortable in hot humid weather. The old name for hearing loss from hammering on metal was 'Boiler Makers Deafness.' Happened (and still happens) too often. Don

Don - Wednesday, 05/24/06 14:36:33 EDT

Getting Started on a Dime: (Additon to post to Thomas). I have sympathy for those that do not have tools or the where-with-all to obtain them. But a lot can be done by scrounging and being persistant. However, first thing is that if you are old enough to take up blacksmithing as a hobby (13 or older) you are old enough for some kind of part time job. And if you have a computer and Internet connection at home to access this site then I have little sympathy for claims of poverty. The actual cash needed is very little but it IS required in our modern world. As I mentioned above, charcoal can be scrounged, it can also be made in the backyard. It is cleaner and more available than blacksmithing coal. A large bag of charcoal will last you for several months of hobby blacksmithing. You can burn wood in a forge but it makes a lot of smoke and the gases given off to make that smoke cool the fire. So, you make charcoal out of the wood first, then burn it in the forge. A bellows can be an expensive project or it can cost nothing depending on your attitude, creativity and goals. An Oriental bellows is a box with a board that is pushed back and forth as a piston. There are two intake flapper valves on the ends and one or two exhaust valves depending on the style. It can be constructed from wood, cardboard, plastic scraps. . . An old broom handle will be needed for the push rod. To build one from carboard would require some large boxes (free) and some Elmer's Glue (a couple dollars) and some box tape (the paper type is very inexpensive OR you can recycle what is on the boxes - duct tape works but is ugly and expensive). . . I would tripple wall (laminate) the normal double sided cardboard. Various electric blowers can also be used. The most applicable is a blow hair drier with the heating elements removed. Vacuume cleaner blowers have also been used but they are generally too powerful (as well as noisy). Proper forge blowers can also be bought. One of the simplest forges is the Japanese trough forge that goes with the Oriental box bellows. This is just a trough made of stacked bricks. An opening about a 1/3 brick wide is built toward the center for the air to come in. Bricks can be used for the tunnel between the forge and the bellows or a piece of pipe of some sort about 2" diameter. Bricks are not cheap but almost every brick home has a pile of leftover bricks suitable for a trough forge. Mow the neighbor's lawn for the excess bricks. . Brick yards and construction supply places ocassionaly have scrap or left over bricks. Refractory or "fire bricks" are not needed. However, a few at the hottest part of the fire will hold up better than common brick. Be sure the bricks you use are fired clay bricks, not concrete. Forges can also be literally, a hole in the ground. After a long discussion about forges a couple years ago a fellow from India sent us a photo of a "typical" Indian forge. It was a hole dug into the ground lined with clay to which was added the output form the "holy cow" to help bind the clay. A small commercial blower was used with a length of auto exhust pipe burried in the Earth. Then there is the ever popular Brake Drum Forge. These can be built with less than $20 in plumbing pieces and some scrounged parts. Anvils really need to be steel. Stone and Cast iron have been used but both break down, corners chip, the work surface becomes rough. As mentioned above if you tell EVERYONE you know and EVERY relative (some which you many not know) that you are interested in blacksmithing and looking for an anvil, you might be pleasantly surprised. Free anvils are more common than you would think. For a century RR-rail anvils have been popular but are a bad choice. They are generally underweight and very springy. People THINK RR-rail looks sort of like an anvil but the thin web makes them too light and springy. Also, if you can scrounge a piece of rail you can certainly scrounge a heavy piece of plate (2" or more). Then there are all kinds of heavy "things" that work. Forget what an anvil looks like and think "steel" and "heavy". RR-couplers have been used. Fork lift forks, old sledge hammers. . . Tongs can be made by the smith. They are a lot of work but are good practice. You do not need tongs to make tongs. If you start with a long piece of steel (about 2 feet) you can hold the cool end while you work. As you draw out the reins the piece will get longer more than doubling in length. If you make the jaws as the far ends then draw out the reins from the middle you can finish without tongs. Primitive tongs were large tweezer affairs made of wood. The hinge was thin wood or leather. They were used to hold the steel up to the part where they got hot enough to char. This is a LOT hotter than your hands can withstand. Tongs can also be bought and good ones work MUCH better than amature made. Having at LEAST one good pair of tongs as a go-by is very helpful. Other tools you will need can be bought new, used or made. Punches and cold chisels can often be found for much less than new at trade lots, flea markets or antique shops. Files and hacksaw blades need to be purchased new and are not inexpensive. A cheap source for good tools steel is big pry bars. These can be cut up and made into punches and chisels and one used will sell for the same as a single chisel but can be made into 3 or four. . . Today you can purchase little import hand grinders for very little money. I do not recommend them but ocassionaly you get one that holds up. Do not buy these on ebay or at flea markets. Buy them from a local dealer that will give you some type of warantee. Common prices are less than $15. Saftey equipment includes safety glasses with side shields, ear plugs as noted (for using that grinder and IF you have a noisy ringing anvil) and gloves. There is a lot of debate about using gloves but they ARE needed when handling stock and scrap, moving anything heavy. Most smiths prefer to hammer bare handed for better control and grip and wear a glove on their work holding or tongs hand. This is common enough that blacksmith suppliers sell lefts and rights seperately. I buy various brands like "Mule" brand with the leather fingers and palms and canvas backs and sleeves. SCROUNGING is an art. It requires alert observation, persistance and a friendly personality. Folks all over throw away a tremondous amount of "stuff" that often has possibilities, value or is in perfect condition. In much of America you can pickup slightly used lawnmowers by the dozens on spring and fall clean-up days. All that is wrong with most of them is that they will not start due to water in the gas or varnish in the carberettor from setting all winter. You can run a lawn mowing business on free lawnmowers if you are alert. OR you can "reconditon" them and sell them to make money for tools. . . Spotting the right place to find blacksmithing tools is an art that some develope to a high skill and find tools everywhere they go. Anyone can do it but you must train yourself to be alert to those possibilities. But the most important tool is still KNOWLEDGE, such as all the above. There are more books on the subject of blacksmithing than ever before and they are cheaper than typical text books. If you have little metal working knowledge I recommend starting with a book that IS a text book. Metalwork Technology and Practice. You can pick up old copies through bookfinder.com fairly cheap. The older ones are better for basics as applied to blacksmithing. However, the new editions still contain most of the old information. See our Swordmaking Resource List for information about this book and many others. See our book reviews of the other books listed as well.

- guru - Wednesday, 05/24/06 15:46:19 EDT

Just to let you know. I built a vise stand out of available wood. 4x4 legs and one inch barn board. Two feet by two feet and bolted the vise to the top. A little light but worked well this afternoon when putting twists into stock up to 1/2 inch. For demo purposes this is a big as I will work with. Will make a bigger table for at home. Thanks for all the advise. Patrick

Patrick - Wednesday, 05/24/06 17:45:02 EDT

Vise stand, FWIW, I attached my 5" legvise to a 24" length of 2" pipe. That pipe is clamped into a Ridigd Tristand, The viseleg simply sits in a big block of wood thats been drilled to hold the leg. The Ridgid Tristand is widely regarded as the "only" suitable portable stand/work table for a whole lot of metalwork trades. If needed a Tristand can be staked or lagged to the floor thru its feet or jackscrewed against an overhead structure too. Its very versitale in its own right. (true, there are other brands of tripod work stands, But Ridgid seems the most popular BY FAR,,Must be a reason for it...) This set-up works real well for a portable legvise

- Sven - Wednesday, 05/24/06 19:36:39 EDT

Hello! Lately I’ve been restoring an old lathe(lodge & Shipley) and it's almost complete. A friend of mine told me that they sell conversion kits for transferring them from the steam engine to electric motor. He showed me it on another one of his lathes. So my question is has anyone heard of these “kits”? Or anything along the lines of running old belt run lathes? Thank you so much for all your help. Without anvilfire I would have to wait awhile before I could get an answer from my friend. P.S. Power to the HOMESCHOOLERS!!!!!!!!! 0;^) John

- John S - Wednesday, 05/24/06 20:12:44 EDT

Garage forge: Hello all, this is my first post, but I've read anvilfire up and down and love the site! I've got a question that is probably been asked a million times, so I have to apologize for that! I am working on putting together a little hobby forge in my garage. I've been working on my driveway up until now, but I don't like working in the rain or cold or having to move all my equipment out and then back again afterwards, so I'd like to move my forge inside my garage. I'm wondering if anyone can give me some advice on how to do this safely. How should I build a forge and smokestack that won't burn down my house? I'm thinking an insulated chimney for a fireplace, but it seems they tend to come in 7" max and from what I've been reading online, I need at least 10" - where would I get something like this? Also, should I construct a side-draft hood or an overhead hood? Any tips on properly constructing my hood? Should I get some sort of fan to suck the air out? If so, what sort of fan should I use? I appreciate any advice you can give me! If there is an answer to this somewhere already, could you point me to it? Thanks!

Condredge - Wednesday, 05/24/06 20:26:08 EDT

Condredge, I ran into similar problems setting up my indoor forge a couple of years ago. Like you, I couldn't find any chimney pipe big enough (I was told 12in minimum),so I went to my local heating and airconditioning fabricator. Not only could they build or order me the pipe but could also make me an overhead hood. Besides the cost, the big problem was drafting. Coal/coke doesn't make enough heat to draw properly so I was advised to incorporate a fan in the chimney to get adequate draft. Considering all this was going to cost me for what was just a hobby at the time (I'm full time now), I went a different route. I found (junkyard scrounging), a 24in exhaust fan which I mounted above my forge, I then cobbled together a hood out of some old 10in pipe I found (approx 3ft with a 45degree elbow to boot!!) and an overturned galvanized wash basin that I cut a hole in. I afixed the exhaust pipe to just below the motor on the exhaust fan and thus, not only got rid of my smoke, but also the carbon monoxide that almost did me in before I understood the importance of proper drafting. Again, remember, just below the motor, this will keep it from clogging with soot. If my description isn't clear enough, I'd be glad to send you pic's, good luck and welcome to the club!

Thumper - Wednesday, 05/24/06 21:22:20 EDT

Recently I've been intrigued with the idea of metallurgy and material science. Blacksmithing sounds quite interesting, but I live in a suburban area. Is it possible to forge inside a garage or some such to where the neighbor next door could not hear you? I don't think the friendly neighborhood association would look too keenly on a continous, loud, banging noise. Thanks for any and all suggestions.

Jesse - Wednesday, 05/24/06 21:29:19 EDT

Burntforge, I was looking at the Kohlswa.....but it went to $480.00, a bit out of my league for 100lbs of a steel whose name I can't pronounce(150lbs I'd of considered it), I'll look at the other one, maybe the collectors will miss it, thanks. Ellen, I can't find the message that's making you bail out, but hey, we're guy's, the only species on the planet that can walk effectively with their foot in their mouth, so give us a break and stick around wouldja?

Thumper - Wednesday, 05/24/06 21:49:52 EDT

where would it be possible to find suppliers of post vise springs. or directions to make one?

ken brown - Wednesday, 05/24/06 22:30:50 EDT

John S. they did indeed used to sell such a conversion kit, in the 1920's. But since overhead line shafting hasnt been installed new since before world war 2, I doubt you are going to find such a kit new anywhere. The most popular kit included a transmission, which was driven by an electric motor, and which in turn drove the lathe. This added a variety of speeds, which in the old line shaft system were provided by an overhead shaft with 4 or more varying size pulleys on it. I would advise you go over to www.practicalmachinist.com, and search the past posts- you will see many different adaptations of line shaft driven lathes to modern electric motors. There are some real Lodge and Shipley experts who are regulars there.

ries - Wednesday, 05/24/06 22:40:21 EDT

Condredge: If You can locate the forge near a window You could replace the glass with sheetmetal and run a stovepipe from a side draft hood through a hole in the sheetmetal to a verticle stack outside. A good idea suggested by John Larson is to join the pipe that goes through the wall or window to a verticle stack with a "T" and extend the bottom of the stack to the ground, sitting on some cement blocks. This is to support the verticle load and let rain water escape out the bottom instead of piping it into the garage and forge. Get the stove pipe fron a plumbing and heating suplier who sells boilers to contracters,they will have big sizes for industrial boilers. Remember that stovepipe elbows can be twisted to make any angle less than 90 degrees. Get stove pipe rather than duct as it is thicker.

Dave Boyer - Wednesday, 05/24/06 23:04:21 EDT

Post Vise Springs: Ken, These tools were all very similar but made by dozens of manufactures. They came in 24 sizes or more and there are early and late models with tennon holes or not respectively. Springs will vary in small details and there would be hundreds. There is no stock spring. The spring is a simple leaf spring 1/4" thick on the small to medium vises (30 to 60 pounds) and 5/16" thick on the larger sizes. Although the early springs had fine details such as chamfers, taper, flare at the bottom and edge clips they can be made without these details. In fact, mild steel suffices to make a suitable spring. As noted above the early springs had a rectangular hole for the bench bracket tennon to pass through. These springs had a very slight outward bow at this point in order to put tension on the pin that held the vise together. The spring then makes a gentle curve toward the front leg and then down to make a long "S" with more curve at the top. The spring pushes out on the bottom of the front jaw. The later model springs are identical except they have a short L shaped bend at the top to retain them under the wrap around bracket. The rest is the same. Some of the later springs are poorly made without the return curve at the bottom. These have a bad habit of digging into the front jaw and not working well. I prefer a little curve that rolls against the front jaw.

- guru - Wednesday, 05/24/06 23:23:43 EDT /FONT>

Rusty Post Drill Using a wire brush followed by oil worked wonders for the old anvil; now what do I do with a very rusty post drill? Gears and body are affected, and the shaft is frozen (see www.larachristi.com/drill.htm ) - do I use the same trick, along with penetrating oil for the shafts? -Thanks!

Tim S - Wednesday, 05/24/06 23:36:52 EDT

Lathe Conversions: Many of the overhead belt machines came from the factory with a motor mount in later years. All this did was lower the upper cone pulley to about 3 feet above the spindle. Then there was a V belt pulley and motor drive hanging off the back of the upper bracket. The whole was supported by a column off the lathe. I have one nearly completed for my old South Bend. All you need to do is match the upper cone pulley to the lineshaft speed which ranged from 500 to 800 RPM. The upper bracket is usualy pivoted so that the drive belt is tensioned by the bracket and it makes changing the belt position convienient. Sometimes the motor weight did the tensioning. However, modern motors will probably not weigh as much as the cone pulley and drive pulley. If you do not have the upper cone pulley (which is often missing) then you are in trouble. The other method of putting a drive on is to use a variable speed DC motor and use a fixed belt to the large front pulley. Note that many folks have used auto or truck transmissions for this purpose. THEY DO NOT WORK. The problem is that the shift steps for an internal combustion engine are totaly different than the geometric progression of a machine tool. Those that had gear shift drives on them had a special gear box made by ONE company, Lima. You will find Lima gear shift drives in old catalogs but they are no longer made. For a brief period they were used by machine manufactures and then sold to individuals converting old machines. They were last made in the 1950's or maybe 60's.

- guru - Wednesday, 05/24/06 23:39:53 EDT

Hi Thumper This is another Kowlswa. The buyitnow price on ebay is $325.00 That would make the reserve less. It is 102 lb located in NY. It may be what you are looking for a less than the $480 the 100 lber sold for. Anyway hope this helps.

- Burnt Forge - Wednesday, 05/24/06 23:46:20 EDT

Old Post Drill Restoration: Tim, This is the same process. However, rust ruins the spindle and the column. But usualy the spindle has had some oil so it is not impossible to clean up and make usable. If the column is heavily pitted then is should be replaced with a new piece of cold drawn mild steel shafting. On running shafts, spindles and not overly rusted columns I use lots of kerosene or WD-40 and 180 grit Wet-or-dry followed by 320 grit. If the rust is not damaging it will usualy polish off. The gears on these old machines were as-cast and were rough to start with. After cleaning and painting apply a thick grease. The most problematic part is the thrust bearing. It is a ball thrust bearing at the top of the spindle. These often wear to nothing and then fall apart or the cover gets torn up and balls lost. For some machines there are stock replacements for others you can use a standard ball thrust bearing but you have to machine the thrust plate to about half thickness for the bearing to fit. If you are going to USE this tool they perform much better and are much more usable with a Jacobs drill chuck. If you add the chuck it reduces the usable space on the column. I replace the column with a piece that much longer and put an extra support near the top. Note that these machines usualy came on a mounting board with routed edges. If the board exists SAVE IT. That is part of the tool and part of its antique value. These are a great old machine and even though I have numerous drill presses and access to a milling machine I often use mine to drill holes where the feel of hand cranking and feeding are required for success. Up to about 3/8" drilling is easy. Over 1/2" you find out what Horse Power realy means. . .

- guru - Wednesday, 05/24/06 23:55:02 EDT

Shop Noise: Jesse, A blacksmith shop is generally much quieter than a wood working shop. Even a power hammer is not as noisy as a table saw or skill saw. However, the noises ARE different and attract attention. First, smoke is usualy the biggest problem. Coal makes viscous yellow smoke for a brief period and it smells different. Even in the North East US where every home used to be heated with tons of coal a generation ago people often complain. . If you are in a yuppie suburban neighborhood I would recommend a gas forge or burning charcoal. Anvil noise CAN BE a problem. Good steel anvils like the Kohlswa mentioned above make an ear piercing ringing that carries. There are a number of solutions. First, by putting a pad under the anvil and bolting it down tight to its stand you can reduce the noise. Often a damper made from a large speaker magnet helps reuduce the ring as well. THEN there are Fisher-Norris "Eagle" anvils. These are a steel faced cast iron anvil that does not ring. They are very quiet. However, they have not been made for over 50 years so obtaining one is not a sure thing. The most obnoxious noise is the sound of an angle grinder. This is similar to a table saw noise and there is little you can do. Sound proofing your shop is the only thing that helps. Insulation on walls, flat surfaces broken up or covered, hedges or a dense tree line. All help. AND the best thing is to be on good terms with your neighbors. Invite them over for a barbeque and blacksmith demonstration. A few gifts of hand forged hooks or a pot hanger can do wonders. Note that in some locations you may be in violation of open burning laws. However, most of those have an exception for cooking fires. Thomas Powers says he used to keep a tea pot on the forge at all times. . . If using gas or charcoal you can always keep a fork and bread for toast or a piece of meat to cook handy. . You can also have the authorities tell you that you are in violation of EPA rules when burning coal. However, their rules do not apply unless you are burning huge quantities of coal. They talk about tons per hour when you are burning maybe a ton a year. . . AND LAST. DON'T ASK. Asking about local ordinances can alert the local bureaucrats that you might be up to something. Go to the library or even the court house and research your questions so you know what the law is. But don't ask.

- guru - Thursday, 05/25/06 00:22:34 EDT

John S: The jackshaft between the motor and spindle can be shop built using readily available bearings and the flat belt pulleys can be made of glued up wood. The steped pulleys should be the same width & diameters as on the spindle so belt length is the same for all. The frame carrying the jackshaft gets hinged and is moved to tension the belt with a section of threaded rod. The motor mounts to the hinged frame so its belt doesn't change tension as the frame is moved. I don't know Your lathe in particular, but the jackshaft can usually be mounted behind the spindle, rather than above[safer if used without a belt guard]. This is how My Grandad rigged his South Bend.

Dave Boyer - Thursday, 05/25/06 00:42:56 EDT

Side draft vs. Overhead: Side draft forge "hoods" are much more efficient than overhead. The problem with overhead is that you are trying to suck up ALL the air at its opening both hot and cold. Thus a lot of the smoke just rolls out. A side draft once started has mostly hot air in it and really cooks. There is no realy good clean way to setup for forge hoods other than some that I think are possibly illegal (according to building codes). It used to be common to support a short chimney on ceiling joists or a wall bracket and run a short metal stack up to that. This reduced brick and kept the shop open. But as I said, I don't think its up to code. Note also that plain stove pipe through a window even with a metal plate is also against the code. Only class A triple wall pipe meets the code. Class A pipe starts at 10" for fireplaces and is made up to 20" in diameter.

- guru - Thursday, 05/25/06 01:28:52 EDT

Step Pulleys: Dave, even though these LOOK like the reverse of each other they are not. They are as you said designed to be use the same belt length at every step on the same centers. To make a replacement pulley you have to start at one end, determine the belt length and then match each of the other steps via the belt length. Usually the the small end on the back shaft is larger than the small end on the spindle. This is due to limited room on the spindle and the need for better wrap and having more room on the back shaft. Seems to me one of the pairs also comes out 1:1. . . On long spans this is simple but if you put the two shafts close together then the angle change of the belt comes into play and you have to futz around with the numbers. On the normally long span the stretch in the belt takes care of small miscalculations. I don't have the numbers handy but I used to have a notebook full of step pulley pairs I had measured and calculated the ratios and nominal input speeds. It was never as simple as it would seem. In that same notebook I had calculated all the settings on a 40 turn dividing head for steps from 2 to several hundred. . . after I had finished I found the chart in MACHINERY'S HANDBOOK for a Cincinnatti Mill change gear dividing head (which is what I had). It was a good excersise. . . I thought I was recreating a missing reference. Since then I ALWAYS check MACHINERY'S first!

- guru - Thursday, 05/25/06 02:24:37 EDT

Condredge: A small propane forge and a non-ringing anvils (e.g., Vulcan, Fisher or Southern Crescent) would go a long ways towards not bothering your neighbors. The 110-lb Russian made anvil you can buy at Harbor Freight for $89.95 may be a more practical alternative. A bit of ring to it, but that oversized hardy hole and the bad orientation of it to deal with though. If you have a roll-up garage door, opening it perhaps about 12" should provide adequate ventilation from air intake at the bottom and an exhaust at the top. The door, being mostly closed, should dampen noise some, as well as to hide your activity. Seriously consider a carbon dioxide monitor in such a situation. However, it will only take one grumpy neighbor to complain to the homeowner's ass'n to likely get you a notice from them. You will likely then have an agrument over what is an acceptable hobby.

Ken Scharabok - Thursday, 05/25/06 05:57:26 EDT

A minor correction to Ken's post. Make that a carbon monoxide detector. I was fine in my previous leaky shop, but the CO level running my propane forge in my new garage was surprising. It could easily reach over 200 ppm, if I let it. On really cold days I did as Ken suggested - lifting one door about a foot and used an exhaust fan out a window. That was plenty to bring the CO level down to 0. And now I've got the thing tuned better and know how to adjust the air so that it sometimes stays below 30 ppm without any exhausting at all. So do get a CO detector, and spend the extra few bucks to get one that shows the levels.

Marc - Thursday, 05/25/06 08:05:46 EDT

Thank you very much for your information on post vise springs. My vise has 4.5in. jaws. Are there any drawings of these springs in relation to their shape & installation. This vise had, what appeared to be, the end of the spring in between the sides of the bracket for the outer jaw. Nothing else. Any drawings would be greatly appreciated as I have a problem with written directions. Also, does this spring need to be tempered in any way? As you can probably discern, I am new to this vocation and can use all the help I can get. Again, thank you very much!

ken brown - Thursday, 05/25/06 09:57:10 EDT

Leg Vise FAQ Ken, Try our leg vise FAQ. The photos are not very close up but they show springs. If the spring is made of mild steel it does not need to be hardened or tempered. Nor should it be quenched. If the spring is made from old leaf spring it should be heated evenly and let air cool. Then reheated to a blue in case it air hardened. It is an odd fact that all steel has the same springyness. The difference between spring steel and low carbon steel is that when the spring steel is hardened and tempered it will flex much farther than non-hardened steel. However, up to that point where it bends the soft steel has the same spring force. SO. . in a long, low travel spring like a leg vise spring it does not necessarily need to be hardened.

- guru - Thursday, 05/25/06 10:20:07 EDT

ken brown: Go to eBay and do a search on post vise spring for an example of one. I've found (in 1/4" flat stock) 10" works for 4" jaws, 11" for 5" and 12" for 6".

Ken Scharabok - Thursday, 05/25/06 10:22:17 EDT

Thanks for all the help, everyone! Regarding building codes, in my city you need a permit to make *any* changes to your building, of course I've broken that one a few times already... and they don't have a permit for a forge so they'll say that it is illegal... so much for living in a "free" country! *grin* Anyhow, I'm hoping I can just get away with it, I'll use coke so the smoke won't be too bad and just do everything I can to make sure I don't burn down my house (that's what the codes are there for, but they don't think or adapt) Well, time to call around to get quotes for a stove-pipe.

Condredge - Thursday, 05/25/06 10:28:27 EDT

Explanation: "reheated to a blue". After a piece of steel is hardened it must be tempered. The common blacksmith practice is to use "temper colors" to determine the temperature heated. This is done by scraping, grinding, sanding or polishing off the scale then heating gently until the temper colors show. This is a fine oxide layer that forms producing different colors at different temperatures. To heat a large part evenly is difficult. For low temperatures used for minimal tempering for maximum hardness (350 to 450°F) a cooking oven can be used. Bladesmiths often use a toaster oven because they are small and comparitively inexpensive to operate. But a kitchen oven will do as well. Another way is to heat a large slab of steel to the necessary temperature by trial and error and place the part on the slab to soak up heat. You can also do it with a torch but it is difficult to heat evenly. However, for this case where you are not quenching the steel it SHOULD be OK without tempering. Tempering is just insurance.

- guru - Thursday, 05/25/06 10:32:04 EDT

Hello Everyone I found website that sells Peddinghaus anvils (http://www.ridgid.com/Tools/Forged-Anvils/index.htm). I know the quality on a Peddinghaus is good, I was just curious as to an estimate of a price for a 220lbs anvil? -Boogerman

- Boogerman - Thursday, 05/25/06 10:41:40 EDT

OLD Peddinghaus Prices: Note that Peddinghaus has been out of production for a while but is SUPPOSED to come back. . They say the line will be reduced dropping some of the small sizes. These are old prices but they were being discounted for some time. I expect the new prices to be higher. 1998 Peddinghaus Prices Model Weight Pounds   -   Kg List Price $/lb #2 45 20 kg $323 7.17 #5 77 35 kg $511 6.63 #7 110 50 kg $702 6.38 #9 165 75 kg $1,013 6.14 #11 220 100 kg $1,359 5.91 #12 275 125 kg $1,564 5.69 Prices do not include shipping. Local taxes may apply. Prices subject to change.

- guru - Thursday, 05/25/06 11:04:37 EDT

Ken Scharabok. Thanks for the lead on the "orphan anvil." I will contact Richard Postman...and will check it out. I also have a Peter Wright Anvil that is set up in my shop and gets used fairly regularly. Jim Kraft

Jim Kraft - Thursday, 05/25/06 11:28:22 EDT

Chimney Fires? If I build a forge with an insulated stovepipe for a chimney and I use coke for my fuel, do I need to be concerned with chimney fires? If so, what precautions can I take to minimize the risk? Also, how does one go about cleaning a chimney?

Condredge - Thursday, 05/25/06 12:38:28 EDT

I just got off the phone with my local Rigid dealer. He called Rigid for me to get a price on a #9. They are back ordered from Rigid through the end of the year, and the #9 is going for $1185 compared to the old price listed above by Jock of $1013 that is a pretty good $182 jump. FredlyFX http://fredlyfx.com

FredlyFX - Thursday, 05/25/06 14:02:18 EDT

Chimney Fires: This is not a problem with coke or charcoal. Chimney fires are the result of the heavy resins and semi-volitile products that are driven out of the fuel then condense in the cold chimney. Later a hot fire may dry and ignite the residue. With wood fires the creosote starts as a shiney coating, then it dries and flakes off like huge black potato chips. The stuff that falls accumulates and can clog a chimney or catch fire. The stuff that hangs on (most at one stage) may ignite and result in a chimney fire. Once a chimney fire starts it greatly increases the draft and even an "air tight" stove will leak, often with a whistle as air is sucked around the gaps in the gaskets or door seal. The sound is similar to that of tornado, that railroad coming through your house sound. Although an air tight stove will leak if you shut down one it greatly reduces the chimney fire but may not stop it. I have put several out by discharging a dry powder chemical fire extinguiser into the stove toward the discharge then quickly shutting the door again. The combination of extinguisher, reduced air and less draft usualy putts out the fire. If not you have a VERY serious problem. It it time to dump a bucket of sand down the chimney (from the top) and then cover it to stop the draft. Coal dust and deposits are possible problems but I doubt if a forge with generate enough to worry about. However, the smoke is acidic and eats up carbon steel.

- guru - Thursday, 05/25/06 14:13:07 EDT

Peddinghaus prices. . . That is about a 15% increase in list price in 8 years. Steel and fuel prices have gone up more than that. A series of labor strikes and steel shortages were supposedly behind the stoping of production. But there are other factors. Ridge Tool supposedly did not want the anvil manufacturing, they only wanted the forged vises. I've felt like their silence of the production issue has been because they are looking for a buyer. You don't announce the end of a product line THEN try to sell it. . . As high as their prices are they have a long waiting list for inventory. But in this kind of industry orders in the hundreds are nothing. It takes multiple thousands to keep the plant open and make a profit.

- guru - Thursday, 05/25/06 14:28:40 EDT

John S - the Guru & others have covered your question nicely, but I'd like to add one minor point: Your jackshaft does not HAVE to have much of a connection to the lathe. My 1939 South Bend has the motor and jackshaft mounted on a pedestal which attaches to the floor behind the lathe. The only connections between the motor/jackshaft unit and the lathe are the belt and a toggle arm which tilts the pedestal back and forth to slack the belt for a cultch. The thing probably gave the OSHA inspector a fit, which I expect is why it was finally surplused. . . BTW: South Bend used a v-belt for the drive from the motor to the jackshaft, with a v pulley on the motor and a flat pulley on the shaft. Something to consider since pulleys in the 12" range are expensive. . .

John Lowther - Thursday, 05/25/06 14:51:40 EDT

Later South Bends had the same flat belt spindle but had the motor and jack shaft (with V belts) below inside the pedestle. Lots of minor changes in these years. We have two, mine is a long bed 13" built about 1915. It is the old line shaft drive type with no chip pan and the old fashioned style. What made it a "deal" when I bought it was the quick change gear box which many old lathes do not have and the complete set of attachments. Then we have a Navy WWII 16" tool room South Bend. It is well worn but has the factory taper attachment which is handy. The BEST thing we did for that lathe was buy a 6 jaw Buck chuck. The 6 jaw grip holds work of all sizes tightly and works great on thin wall tubing and hollow parts. Both lathes go down to 4 TPI (maybe one goes to 3). Very handy if you want to make replacement vise screws or complete hand made vises. A big long screw and nut are handy for wood working benches. . .

- guru - Thursday, 05/25/06 16:41:40 EDT

According a just posted item on the ABANA forum Euro-style anvils were selling for about $2.00 lb at the recent Blacksmithing Ass'n of Missouri conference. One price cited was $500 for a 250 LB. I understand Tom Clark was giving a 2/1 deal on his Pakistani tongs there also.

Ken Scharabok - Thursday, 05/25/06 18:31:32 EDT

Pakistani Tongs: . . . well. . . When you buy tongs at what I have been told was $2.50 each by the thousand you SHOULD be able to discount them. A pair for $20 is still 100% markup. But you never know when you hear these things if they are true. AND a container load is many thousands of pairs of tongs. . . a sizable investment. I still prefer to buy American since this is one of the few things you still can. . . The regular price on the big 500# Euroanvil is $2.49/pound. and the 335# only 10 cents more. That is what small used anvils were selling for 8 years ago. It would be easy for someone doing the math in their head to miss the pennies over two bucks. . The smaller 175 pound Euroanvil is selling for $3.00/pound which is still a darn god price. Especially when you consider Frankie8acres is selling the soft Russian? anvils for $2.50/lb. on ebay . . The same price that you can buy REAL anvils new and used.

- guru - Thursday, 05/25/06 19:44:30 EDT

Isn't turning $2.50 into $20 about a 800% mark up? I've heard the standard for a furniture store is 700% and something like 1,500% for a casket from a funeral home.

Ken Scharabok - Thursday, 05/25/06 20:43:23 EDT

Guru, As everyone on the site knows, I'm looking for a heavier cleaner anvil, so, how can Euroanvils be so reasonably (or cheaply), priced and do they compare favorably with American made new anvils? I understand inflation, the cost of steel, etc, but is the quality the same as a new Emerson or others? Perhaps Clinton's NAFTA and GANT agreements for "fair trade" will actually help me out for once.

Thumper - Thursday, 05/25/06 21:06:26 EDT

Thanks a lot for all your information. I found a piece of 1/4" flat stock, did as I was instructed, and it works fine. Again, thanks much!

ken brown - Thursday, 05/25/06 21:13:29 EDT

Hi Thumper The Euroanvil is a nice anvil. It is High Carbon Maganese Cast Steel. It is a bit soft, though in the low 40 rockwell range. Still very nice. Honestly is doesn't even compare in quality of an anvil made from 4142 tool steel. The Emerson is also heat treated on all surfaces for hours to get a much deeper penetration as the Euro anvil isn't. It is flame hardened on the face. It really depends on your use. It is a double horn continental pattern verses a London Pattern. Some folks prefer one style over the other. The Emerson is absolutley a superior anvil in quality. it also cost much more. The Euro anvil is more affordable. It really is up to what you can afford and style you desire.

- Burnt Forge - Thursday, 05/25/06 21:21:16 EDT

re: Steel prices - yesterday's WSJ was predicting a 19% increase in retail price for the fall. We are seeing the price of scrap rise for June delivery - probably in the 5% range.

- Gavainh - Thursday, 05/25/06 22:20:04 EDT

Lathe Jackshaft Pulley: Jock I can't say for sure, as I havn't seen the unit since We dismantled it in '91. It presently is burried under a lot of stuff in the wood shop at this house due to insuficient shop space to set it up. [this is a 16" swing, the bed is 11'long] I don't remember how much difference there was between tension settings on the pulleys, because it used threaded rod instead of the over center lever some difference could be tolerated. The pulleys were wood, made on the 12" lathe here, but they could have been turned in place on the jackshaft with woodturning tools made from files and an improvised toolrest. The frame holding the motor and jackshaft was hinged down near the floor, I don't remember if it was atached to the base of the machine or the floor. Large diameter flat pulleys with V belts was a common practice on pumpjacks as well, there is so much area and mechanical advantage due to the diameter that the small v pulley is still where the slipage occurs.Due to the difference in diameters these puleys need to be as far apart as practical to get as much "wrap" on the small pulley as You can.

Dave Boyer - Thursday, 05/25/06 22:59:14 EDT

One reason the Bronco, or Euroanvils are reasonably priced is that the factory was built by the socialist government of Czechoslovakia back when there was such a thing. So they dont have the same infrastructure costs we do here. Labor in eastern europe is also pretty cheap. And they make a lot of other stuff besides anvils- the main foundry is probably pouring millions of tons of steel, so slipping in a few hundred anvils is no big deal. Whereas somebody like Russel Jacque is making his Nimba anvil in small batches, at full price american costs.

ries - Thursday, 05/25/06 23:49:32 EDT

Cheap European labor. In Croatia in 1991 the average monthly income was about $250 USD. That works out to about $1.50 an hour based on 40 hrs week/50 wks a year. However, that was about twice as high as some other Eastern European countries, such as Russia.

Ken Scharabok - Friday, 05/26/06 04:51:07 EDT

Anvils and Goods Prices: If you buy American it is going to cost more today for most products. Heavy iron is becoming increasingly expensive due to several factors. 1) We have let both China and Europe dump steel on us until most mills went out of business. We are now forced to by Chinese steel for many applications. Steel from Venezuela is much better but we have pissed them off and we do not get steel or oil from them at this point. 2) EPA requirements. The majority of our steel industry was built for the WWII build up and shortly after. MANY MANY mills and small foundries went out of business because of clean air requirements. However, many survived and were still profitable until #1 above. 3) Labor costs. WE DO have some of the highest labor costs in the world. In exchange we used to get the best products in the world as well. The decline in US manufacturing is partialy our fault. Detroit constantly catered to the lowest common demoninator of more speed and power rather than safety and efficiency. Our tax structures hurt small manufacturers and small businesses. . and on and on. But the bottom line is people in a society where it costs $10/hour to live cannot compete head to head with those that live in a primitive society where it costs one hundredth of that. OR compete against government supported businesses OR against prison and slave labor. 4) We also have OSHA and Workman's Comp. If a US worker is injured there is excellent medical covereage. We also try to provide a generally safer work environment. This is part of a high standard of living that does not exist in many other places. We now pay more for steel than almost anywhere else in the world because we do not make it anymore. It is a National disgrace and a serious security issue. Our government has been asleep at the switch for 30 years and now I suspect it is too late to get that industry back. That said. I also know that for pennies more or the same price the Euroanvil could be a better product. However, anvils are still a low production nuisance product to almost every foundry where they are made. This is largely due to the fact that due to the pressures above most foundries are very large operations. To stay in production and keep quality up Euroanvils has changed foundries within Czechoslovakia several times. SO. . If you want a top quality anvil made of a carefully controlled alloy, scientificaly heat treated and made by craftspeople who CARE about the product they make, buy American. It will cost you more but you largely get what you pay for. It would be great if we still made a forged anvil. . . Just LOOK at the Chinese, Indian and European anvils that are imported. Except for swiping off the face with a belt grinder they are unfinished. All that cheap labor and none is applied. In fact those conical horns were originaly designed to be machine finished and they are not. The few American made anvils are machined flat then hand ground. The Rhino horns that many prefer can only be hand finished. I do not know if there are any good anvils made in Western Europe other than Peddinghaus any more. If there are, it would be interesting to see what they make. SO. . . there are a lot of reasons that most imported anvils are cheaper. But for the labor costs in the places they are made they should be finished much better.

- guru - Friday, 05/26/06 08:34:09 EDT

Would it be unadvisable for me to "juice" up my micro forge by adding oxygen? Here's a pic of what it looks like now: http://greatnippulini.com/forge2.JPG I figure if I had an oxygen mix, I'd get a hotter forge. Maybe even get hot enough for welding. If this is a disaster waiting to happen, please let me know. If not, what's the best method for a proper mix?

- Nippulini - Friday, 05/26/06 08:59:52 EDT

Was driving down I-95 yesterday. A billboard for Amstel Light proclaims "Asian Fusion, it's not a welding technique"

- Nippulini - Friday, 05/26/06 09:04:56 EDT

TGN, I know a guy who thought he could get his microforge up to welding heat by running oxy-acetylene for a second, then replacing the propane torch. He found out that ITC-100, kaowool, and soft firebrick make a really funky glass when they melt together into a puddle. What's your current burner? I couldn't tell if it was a propane torch or a small venturi. Regardless, I'd refit it with a small blower and direct propane injection from a needle valve. Do a search on "blown burner forge" for examples.

Alan-L - Friday, 05/26/06 10:32:48 EDT

Hi Thumper Guru, Ken and ries gave you some great information. It is a shame the Czech anvils don't put a few more pennies in there anvils as Guru suggested to bring the quality up a little. I wish they were finished. The last time I bought a Czech anvil I spent about five hours and a small fortune in abrasives to dress it up very nice. The American anvils such as the Emerson already come dressed. They are both good anvils. I have found the Czech anvils mushroom on the edges and ding a little easier and deeper due to how they are hardened and the material used. Again up to what you feel you can afford and the style you prefer. It is always a pleasure Thumper.

- Burnt Forge - Friday, 05/26/06 12:56:58 EDT

Euroanvils-Several years ago I had a chance to review the composition of the steel these anvils were being made from. At that time it was equivelant to the US grade 1530 (might have been 1531). This is a grade with about 30 points of carbon and elevated manganese levels (a few percent). The extra manganese allows you to get greater hardenability without increasing carbon content. For a flame or induction hardened component, this should give fairly high hardness. But depth of hardness will be much less than is something like 4340. Do not confuse the elevated manganese in 15xx class of steels with the Hadfeld Manganese steels which have manganese in the 12-13% range and work harden very rapidly. Basically what I am saying is the anvils are made from a plain, medium carbon steel (1030) with some manganese added to increase hardenability. The steel grade used should fine for producing a fairly hard surface (45-50 Rc). My personal opinion is that these anvils are a very good deal. US Steel Market The US steel market is still with us. We still make a vast array of grades and shapes domestically. We certainly do have issues that affect our competitiveness in the global market place, but what I have seen in the last several years is growth in this industry. The mills are producing at record levels to serve the needs of most industries except automotive. Heavy industies, such as mining, oil, paper, etc are having record years and this is translating into a high demand for steel products. I see this in the forging industry in particular, but I know it is also being felt in casting etc. The price of steel goods has gone up, no doubt about it. This week, the price of 4340 scrap is about $450/ton. In addition to high scrap prices, the cost of engery contiunes to rise. Couple these two factors with dramitic increases in demand and you get high prices. It is my personal belief that the US will always have a steel industry-both mills and processors. The govm't may or may not play a role in this, but consumers of steel goods need things more rapidly than they can be obtained oversees (replacement parts, quick lead time production etc). This is a cornerstone of the open die forging industry and the vast majority of our material is produced domestically (most of it comes from NW PA). Patrick

Patrick Nowak - Friday, 05/26/06 13:21:45 EDT

Alan, I'm using a Bernzo Matic TZ8000 burner with MAPP Gas (it's a methyl acetylene petroleum gas that burns hotter than propane). Propane on this tiny forge is a waste. I would assume an oxygen injection would boost the heat up higher.

- Nippulini - Friday, 05/26/06 13:43:18 EDT

On the Euro-anvils, I suspect quality control may be an issue. For a small production run, say casting a dozen at a time, likely they may be just what was being poured that day rather than a consistent alloy mix. Thus, quality may vary from batch to batch. As I recall Centaur Forge imported the Swedish Kohlswa anvils under their name for a while, but stopped due to quality problems. However, they were manufactured to Centaur's specifications so perhaps they, and not the Swedish company, may have been the problem.

Ken Scharabok - Friday, 05/26/06 16:28:52 EDT

THE STEEL INDUSTRY We indeed do still have a large steel industry. However as a supplier to domestic users of steel it is a ghost of its former self. In the 1960's through early 1980's you could call Joseph T Rhyerson and Sons and get almost any common alloy in plate and bar. At the time they carried as a specialty 4140 plate up to 18" and could flame cut it, blanchard grind it and have it delivered to your door in days. Today it is difficult to find a supplier that will cut 4" plate much less 18". Where a medium size town might have 4 steel warehouses there MIGHT be one. When manufacturers need many grades of heavy steel plate they must go offshore. Not all of this is the steel industry. Some is the decline in US industry in general that no longer supports the level of supply chain we had in the 1970's. This is related to many things that we no longer do on the scale we once did including ship building and power generation (Nuclear, large hydro, government infrastructure projects. . .). The point is we could be doing a LOT more here at home rather than sending coal and scrap iron overseas to be made into products that are in turn sold here. . . It is not good business.

- guru - Friday, 05/26/06 18:03:28 EDT